Charter Review Advisory Board - Regular Meeting

Okay, good. So, all right. Uh, for those we had  some technical difficulties. Um, all we missed,   all you missed was the, uh, prayer and, uh,  and the pledge, Mr. Chairman. Okay. Now,   we can call the RO. Chairman Berg here.  Vice Chairman Henderson Jansenius here.   Miss not here. She's on the way, we're told.  Ma'am, she's on the way. Good. Mr. Dancy,   yes. Mr. Pereira, here. There she  is. Mr. Chairman, you have quum. Straight from the bathroom. Thank you, Mr. Prayer. Pledge, we  had some technical difficulties.   We just called roll. So you're you're  present. Yeah. Me, too. Think we're good. All right. Um, so I'll motion that we approve  the minutes from January 8th meeting. I say discussion or debate or you want to see  anything that we needed to correct? Um,   all in favor? I think Kyle and just I guess  mark me down is abstain. I wasn't there and   I didn't watch the video so I trust that it's  accurate but I just don't make sense. Okay. All right. First thing on the docket is  the little introduction to governmental   accounting that I've prepared  for the commission. It may be   a little bit basic for this group. Um but  you're welcome to ask more questions. Um presentation. Okay. Should be powerful.

Share my screen. Share that's coming up. All right. On the board here,  Frank. What's the context for this? Do you know   the account? Yeah, I just a brief an introduction  to governmental and accounting so we kind of get   a better understanding of what our city clerk  is doing. Um there was discussion last time   discussion whether the city clerk should roll  up under the city manager. They have shared   responsibilities for finances. So Jonathan has  accountable for financing but she reports inside   of the city clerk program. Okay. Cool. Okay.  So the concept of governmental accounting is   similar to think about a conglomeration. Um so  you have for example Yon Brands and General Mills.   They have smaller companies that roll into their  umbrella but those are all like food products.   So, think more of a government as a like a  Birkshshire pathway kind of company that has   a more diversified subsidiary. Um, they're  semi-autonomous, but they ultimately are   controlled by the parent. So, under the city  of Panama City as the parent company, um,   the city manager would be over city operations.  So he controls the brands which are the equivalent   of FR funds or departments. City clerk is over  accounting, official records and cash collections   for all all the brands. And the city attorney is  over legal and contractual for all the brands.

mute. So, next is the city basically the  city brands that we're talking about. So, the general fund uh these are all the  departments that report up to the general   fund. Um the commission manager, attorney, clerk,  budget, purchasing, human resources, logistics,   land use, engineering, public works, facility  maintenance, police, fire, streets, parks, culture   and recreation, and we have some miscellaneous um  cost centers as well. The infrastructure sir tax   fund is just for the collection and dispersement  of the infrastructure s taxes that the city   receives. The community rede re rede the brown  is the uh our special revenue funds um community   redevelopment agency has four areas the St.  Andrews area the downtown area the downtown   north area and Millville then we have a um we have  an allocation an automatic allocation from the   um from the state for uh actually from HUD for the  city ship. Now ship is from from the state state   housing initiative program and then the housing  and community services has an allocation from   directly from HUD. Um next in the green is the  debt service funds. We have five governmental debt   service fund debt services. Um those are listed  there by service. Uh so the the debt service funds   are are only exist to service debt debt payments.  So they're only there to pay the principal and   interest on debt. So the loans and things that the  city took out to do improvements. That's correct.  

And that's only for governmental funds. So  everything above is governmental. Everything below   is enterprise. The enterprise fund. Where does the  community redevelopment agency money come from?   that is actually in increment financing from this  uh county bay county and from the city panel that   doesn't flow from the federal government. No,  but a special revenue it can only be used in   those areas. You might be thinking the the  private banking financing CRAAS that Yeah,   I was two separate. Yeah, these are more Florida,  county, city entities versus the private banking   finance from the feds. Are do they have the exact  same name? They both have the CRA as an acronym,   but um community redevelopment agency is the same  Yeah. same name that goes through the banks. Yes.   So, there's a federal program and then a local  state. Is it the same program under two different   hats? No, the the community development act is  a is a banking finance deal that's nationwide.   Community development agencies are are hyper local  to municipalities and counties and so they're   individualized by the local depending on the ar  agreements made by the local but yeah depending   on the agreements but it's a there's one that's  a I'm sorry the CRA at the federal side is the   community reinvestment act. So that's that's where  you get that's those affordable housing dollars   and subsidized financing for homes. Community  development assoc administrations or agencies are   uh products of local municipalities andor counties  in the state of Florida but not the state. No,   only within the state of Florida. And  there's different CRAAS in different states,   but ours have their own specific  rules to to the state of Florida.

So where the federal money for housing goes to  HUD, the housing and community services. Correct.   Yes. And those community reinvestment act dollars  flow through HUD just like the community redevelop   I'm sorry the community uh community development  block grant funds through flow through HUD, but   those go to entitlement areas in the state and in  those communities. So we actually administer CDBG   dollars through HUD locally annually and we got  some of that money after Hurricane Michael is and   there's a DR designation on the end of it which  means disaster relief and that's that all that   money we got after Hurricane Michael for housing.  Is there still some left um infrastructure   infrastructure but the majority of the housing  money came through another set of acronyms HHRP   which is hurricane uh hardest hit. Yeah. Her uh  hurricane hardest hit recovery program. Yeah.   Hurricane housing recovery program or anyway  you're we're half right. Get it. The number   of acronyms right now is confusing me and I've  got dyslexia too. So um but those are dollars as   a result of a a federally declared disaster for h  housing relief. Hurricane housing relief program.   That's Is it okay to stop the questions? Because  I was just realizing questions was piling up and   it wasn't going to make any sense. Questions got  my acronyms jumbled. So everything red and below   is enterprise fund which means they're funded by  user user uh fees um and their debt is included in   their funds. So the utilities fund for example  they'll have debt on um state revolving loans   and they have another debt issue um that was  issued some years back. Those are accounted for   inside the proprietary funds. Uh the only the  governmental funds are in these debt service  

fund area the green boxes. So in the enterprise  you have utilities fund, environmental services   fund and the marina's fund. Uh the equipment  maintenance fund is an uh self um self uh internal   service fund sorry and um they are funded by  contributions from the other funds that they   service. Now what's not on this screen is another  half of the city's um revenue and expenditures   which is the grant funds including FEMA capital  project funds, pension funds and self- insurance   funds. These funds are not budgeted annually.  They're budgeted on a separate basis and approved   by commission separately except the pensions are  self- sustaining. So we'll talk about the color of   money maybe a minute the laptop. There you go. Oh,  there we go. Thank you. So the color of money in   the blue is uh the general fund that's funded by  taxes, property taxes, gas taxes, utility taxes,   communication service taxes. We have sales  taxes, franchise fees. We have state revenue   sharing charges for services, investment income,  license permits. We have fines and forfeitures   and transfers. Anything that's not required to  be accounted for in a separate fund falls into   the general fund. The infrastructure certex fund  as I mentioned is funded by the infrastructure   certex. Uh that's a sales sales tax. Um community  redevelopment agencies are funded by tax increment   financing from the city and Bay County. They  also have investment and grant revenues.   This ship is the state housing initiative program  HUD for the housing and community service that  

has service funds are are funded by transfers  and one has invest investment income. It has   a portfolio that's invested. Utilities funds uh  are funded by charges for services, impact fees,   loans and grants. Environmental services funds  basically just charges for services and and   interest. and the Marina's fund. We have the St.  Andrews and the downtown marina. And as I said,   the internal service funds are funded by the other  all the other funds that use their services. So   the equipment maintenance fund is like fleet.  So the fleet fund would be funded by utilities,   environmental services, the general fund.  Those special revenue funds should not be   funding any fleet except for maybe the  CRA might have a might have a vehicle. Is there any co-mingling of funds at any time?  Um the co-mingling though that that is the   reason why we have all the funds because  because the uh the funds are separately   accounted for. The money is all in one bank  account but but the revenues and expenditures   are separated and and not co-ingleled.  They're all separated into these funds. So, the cost of doing business for the city.  Um, this is the fiscal year 2026 budget,   adopted budget. Um, for personal services, wages,  overtimes, insurance, taxes, uh, 55.6 million   operating expenses, fuel repairs, uniforms,  utility supplies, um, liability type insurance is   53.3. Capital outlay is the big the big vehicles,  buildings, roads, lift stations. That's 8.2  

million. Debt service 17.5 million and transfers  14.2 million for a total of 148.8 million,   excuse me, in expenses. So when it says capital  outlay, is that repairs or something new? No,   that's those are so the definition of a capital  outlay is it has to extend the useful life or   have a useful life of more than two years and cost  more than $5,000. So it is could be a repair. No,   repairs would not be considered capital outlay.  Well, what give me an example? So there's a lot of   um big um uh uh equipment like at the wastewater  treatment plant. If that is a replacement at the   at the wastewater retreat treatment plant, it  would just be a repair regardless of the cost. Who   sets the cap for capital outlay? State of Florida.  Okay. So it's something new. Is that what you're   saying? No, it's not new. It's a replacement  part. A replacement rather than a repair,   right? No. Well, it's a it would be qualify  as a repair. So, but just to keep us on track,   we don't if we have questions about this, we can  kind of come to you separately, Jan. Absolutely.   Right. So, just understanding the structure  of what you're reporting, right, inside of   our finances, not the dynamics. The dynamics, the  city manager is ultimately accountable for that,   right? uh the the clerk is accountable for that  in the financial statements an audited report   but not the how this is the here I do the capital  finances I would decide whether it's capital or   repair she doesn't approve finances though finance  expenditures come through you on the approval they  

do but she gives final sign off uh to execute the  check and they you know might need clarified or   might determine, hey, you know, you know, this  this fund was used, we disagree with that. We   need to make changes to it. Final signup or, you  know, hey, this was, you know, this per this this   purchase was, you know, can you get clarity on  this from either the director or the manager   because I just want to make sure that it was a  legit legitimate charge and they do ask questions.   Her and her accounting team do. Okay. So I think  that's where the final the final enter button is   on her though to issue the check. Correct. That's  where this conversation come from because inside   of the charter the lines are blurred for who's  accountable to city finances. Right. So we talked   last time about who's reporting. When I look at  this there's a $2 million deficit. Like who's   accountable for that deficit? If you sign off on  the budget and she's keying it she's reporting   on it. this the I was just getting ready to talk  about the dep the difference between the expenses   and the revenues are the reserves. So we cannot  we cannot submit an unbalanced budget. The budget   is balanced. The the difference is the um the use  of prior year reserves. Okay. And that's where the   difference lies. And we were just talking about  limitations about one fund to use. Does that come   from the state or is that in the charter? That's  generally accepted accounting principles. If that's a very subjective statement though  I know generally accepted accounting terms well there it's a gap it's a yeah gap principles  it's a four there's a whole but I don't standards   the government accounting standards board to set  the standards on how governments account for and  

report their accounting um That's ultimately  who determines whether your statements are and   that's where I'm at fairly who's reporting on  it, but who's accountable for it in terms of   the charter? Who's accountable to execution of  this budget? Well, what do you what do you mean   by execution? I guess is the like who decided or  Well, who's accountable if we go over budget or if   we come in under budget? And what did that look  like? Is she accountable or is the city manager   accountable? Well, I would if we blow through the  budget then I mean there's a lot of people that   will be accountable. I mean the specific director  will be accountable. Um you know I mean everything   is broken down into different funds and so we're  regularly monitoring that. So um can I ask maybe   a question because I think maybe this is where  you're trying to go with this. So like start super   high level. Does doesn't the commission establish  the budget? They they approve the budget. Well,   we set it. We said it. What do we set it? Like we  we present we craft the budget based on commission   approves it correct. They have the final say on  what the topline number is going to be and then   by law revenues have to match expenses on budget.  That is correct. Great. Then the next step's going   to be down is there's going to be a certain  amount of allocation to different departments.   Right. That's going to be laid out in the budget.  Correct. Okay. So then within that there's going   to be certain spending authorities that I I know  it's not on the charter. As a matter of fact,   I've talked to Cole Davis as the Panama City  Beach attorney and they have limitations in their   charter and he says it's really hard to function  because there's certain things. So maybe can you   walk walk through that process like who at at what  level does a does do do paper clips get purchased   and then Great question. So the way it works is  we have uh we have a a policy basically that is   adopted through resolution. It's the purchasing  uh city's purchasing policy and procedures manual.  

And in that you have um uh you know the the things  that are spelled out. So you have a budget and you   know and the director puts that budget together  with his or her team and then there's different   spending levels that are authorized. So directors  or department heads including Miss Smith are able   to spend up to $20,000. uh assistant city managers  are able to spend from $20,000 in1 cent up to   $50,000 and then I have the authority from $50,000  and1 cent up to $100,000 once it hits $100,0001 it   has to go to the commission doesn't pass go  doesn't collect 200 bucks the next question   would be and I'm just s pick some department  out pick any just tell me one yeah quality   or parks and wreck all right so parks and wreck  has budget. And what would be the the check and   balance if park and wreck just they blow through  their budget by going, you know, they're they're   spending $25,000 a clip and it goes through  their through their their allocated amount,   then who who at what level does that step in? So,  you know, every week when there's cash flow out,   whether it be for payroll, whether it be for  expenditures in the field through a purchase   order or through a purchasing card, you know, all  of that goes through the systems and and our we   have a budget manager that reports directly to the  city manager. Um, and she is literally monitoring   the budget, I would say hourly, but I don't know  where but ultimately No, I'm saying but she would   c she would catch something. It would go on  your go to you. It goes to me and you go to   parks and recck saying, "Hey, wait a second here.  You're you're you're going to walk through. We're   68% through the year and you're already 80% your  personnel budget. What is going on?" And we would,   you know, you you're on a path now for your  whole department to be over budget. We're   going to have to course correct. So then you are  accountable. If it's the process reports to you,   you're accountable for execution of that process,  right? She's accountable for just reporting. if  

there were potentially inappropriate expenditures  or expenditures that weren't coded right and need   to be addressed in that. But the actual because  see that's key to make sure that we're able to   track. Yeah. But just to be clear, so if  if you if you say as the city manager,   we're spending $60,000 on XYZ. Jan's not going  to say I'm not cutting the check. That's not her   authority. If it's if it's Yeah. Correct. Unless  it's something that wouldn't be appropriate,   which is obvious. I'm I'm assuming everything's  on the up and up. Okay, you have to look at the   worst case scenario. That's why her being  ability to say no is important. You know,   again, we're looking nationally. Nobody wants to  say no to the executive. She has the capacity to   throw a rock in the put a thing in the spoke.  Let's look at it more carefully. I think it's   been wrongly categorized. That is a second set of  eyes. I'm talking about two different things. One   is I'm just trying to understand the status quo.  I'm not trying to change anything at this point   and I don't even know if something should change,  you know, but right now the way I'm hearing it,   Jan, is is you not your own department, but I'm  saying when somebody asks you to cut a check,   when that person makes that decision, you cut  the check as they're being fraud or something,   right? Yeah. If it's valid, it's a valid  expenditure. This is for the sake of argument.   We're not doing it's a valid invoice and it's a  valid expenditure. I I'm hearing it differently.   I'm hearing that her expectation is things are  going to be appropriate and they have been,   but if something came up that wasn't, she has  the authority to stop it there. That's all I   want to say. 100%. You stopped she stopped. You're  talking about if if if she doesn't agree with the   expenditure or that she's indicating some fraud  or that any of those things. It doesn't have to be   fraud. It could just be someone's simple mistake.  if she sees something and he said it about 10   times to both of you. He said if she agrees with  it, she just writes a check. She has the capacity  

to disagree. I don't think she hold I want I want  to understand this. This is California. If if   if Jonathan has a valid invoice and he and it's  within his spending authority and and the boxes   are checked and it's not fraud, Jan's going to cut  the check. I don't think she's got the discretion   to say this is dumb, Jonathan. No, I don't. I I  have no operational authority. Let her finish.   Go ahead. So So if it's if if the check that  he's writing to pay someone is an operational   uh type of decision, then that's his decision.  I would not stop a check from for that.   But I get checks with inadequate documentation  or uh an invalid invoice or an invoice to analy she has the capacity to check that everything  lines up. Not that it's fraud. I mean that's   an extreme. Just that everything has to line up  and if it doesn't there is the system is set up   for her to have that the records be corrected.  And it could have been a mistake on the part of   the city. You know, it could be had the capacity.  Formalities aren't there, then Jan would stop it.   But if it's if it's just a subjective decision  and the the eyes are dotted, then she'll cut the   check. Yeah. If it's reasonable within the scope  of my budget, then yes, she's going to approve it   with the proper documentation. In the org chart  we saw last time, there were some departments   that were under the city clerk. So does that work  the same or in that case if there is an issue do   you deal with that issue like he was bringing up  you're spending too much money does that still   go to the city man they they tell me and I would  bring it to his attention but you wouldn't handle   that he would do that that's correct unless it  was my department yeah but so those departments   under the chart that's your responsibility that's  correct so there's a set of them that you are kind   of in total control that's correct you would be  analogous to a direct even from the department  

under her department that are under her she's not  accountable for this manager's accountable that's   where this shared responsibility you can have  finance as a shared responsibility but you can't   have finance as a shared accountability unless  you're firing two people at the same time and   you might but at what point does it roll up to you  should have caught this in a finance from a budget   perspective where the departments are rolling  up information right this is something so big   and it's so blurry inside the charter. This is  where what you brought up. Should the city clerk   be accountable to the city manager? Because the  dynamics right now are not. So the dynamics is   is that they are peers and she's accountable  to the commission, but the finance side of   the world there's too much and this is a lot lack  of clarity has gotten us over the last 10 years.   I would just say this from from my perspective. In  order for us to defraud the city, Jan and I would   have to be in cahoots in my opinion. That's  what it comes That's what it comes down to.   The independence of the city clerk, I think, is  the ultimate goal. Yes. So that it's not someone   that he can fire. Exactly. That's I think what  the that's I think the purpose behind Yes. where   they split it. Besides that, it's really really  important and it's not insignificant. And I think   just from a practical matter from what you're  talking about procedurally, I've seen Jan hold   up many checks and payments for procedural whether  there was an there wasn't an appropriation for it   or a budget amendment. So to to actually amend the  budget in that year to appropriate the dollar the   spend there wasn't an appropriate budget transfer.  I think on the back end we recode things to match   the GL the way they should have come out. Um,  and and even from a a mileage reimbursement,   like the director's like, "Hey, here's my $250  like PDM reimbursement for this trip I had to   take." Well, she's like, she'll kick it back and  say, "Well, you can't sign your own." You know,  

that type of stuff. What I think for perhaps  what you're doing and this is probably going   to go more discussion section is that we've  got and I'm going to remove the natural that has departments underneath this and  every other department had this check of   the cler and then they roll up to manager. So  there's this like independent purse strings   yet there's also these obligations that are  underneath pur strings as well and that if   for some reason somebody was doing something  not really egregious but just over spending   then at that point it doesn't city manager  could city manager team that that department   but the budget manager would alert him if  I go on budget the budget manager is going   to alert him but but I think what brain is  saying is that we're talking Jonathan can hop   pop and all that other stuff. But as far as any  sort of like actual accountability that would   roll up the city commission. Yeah. Well, that  would be his responsibility. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,   if if her and I were at an impass when I felt  that something was legitimate um and she's   like I don't think it is. I would we would have  the city commission would have to decide that.   But I think the the specific example that Brandon  was talking about was if in her department where   she's like a department head or director if there  was something untoward or questionable there not   personal view just in that function um would  the city manager have the ability to treat that   um department the way you treat other departments?  Yeah. For example, you can clock in and clock out   from your phone. some of our employees are hourly  and if I was if I was if it was determined by   payroll or IT that not payroll sorry um HR that  someone was like clocking in from their house   uh that would be brought to my attention and to  Jan's attention because I'm the personnel director  

for the city even if it was that was person under  her. Yeah. So you do there is a duality because   you can work over her. That is correct. The only  city employee where I basically have no say in   their time or time off or how all that works would  be Jan Smith cuz I'm the personnel director. Well,   he's not a city employee. So, Jan and I are on  contract with the city and we are paid in same   manner as the city employees. Our benefit options,  all that. The city attorney is is a contractor.   All this information is good and and all the staff  reports are good, but I think we're in the weeds   and we don't need to be as as the group that's  looking at the charter. Maybe we need to bring   some guard rails to the charter, but all of this  really is not charter related. It's it's in the   weeds. Um, you know, what would be that what  what we need to be talking about is we've got   the city manager done. Now, should we have a CFO  that reports to the manager or keep it the Well,   it is and I've already said in in previous  meetings, you know, because we've always   done it this way is may not be the appropriate  answer. And so, that's where the charter comes   in. All this other stuff is good information,  but it's not charter related in some degree.   integrity of the charter. Regardless of who's in  the seats right now, the long-term investment of   whose work part is not clear, the accountability  lines are blurred. We have an opportunity and a   and an obligation to the city to review this  and to say how do we provide clarity and do   we need to, right? And should we? My vote is that  we should we absolutely should clear the lines of   ambiguity. It can't be vague and a lot of it is  vague and I get that but the charter should not  

have roles and responsibilities and all that is  you know it's I agree but I I also think it's it's   hard to do it on a 30,000 foot level if you don't  understand it a little bit conversation. Yeah. No,   it's great information. I I just it's just me. I  mean, I did my homework and I read all this stuff   and it's important for a decision that's got to  be made, but I'm going to be blunt. We shouldn't   spend an hour and a half talking about this and  not even touching the charter. And that's what   we're supposed to be doing. Fair enough. All  right. So, what about 6B? Are we are we kind   of already segueing into that? I just provided  the uh my duties and responsibilities and the   code of ordinance sections uh to kind of give you  an idea of what last last meeting there was some   discussion about well that's in an ordinance and  this is in the this is in the charter so I printed   you some sections from the code of ordinances that  might be pertinent to your discussion um and then   you had requested our contracts so I added uh all  of our contracts And then um that was the that   was the end of my uh section of staff reports. Um  Jonathan has included the salary information that   was requested. Um and then uh Mr. Zimmerman and  his team have the options for that were the like   the menu options that were requested um that  you'll probably want to maybe deal with when   we get to those sections. But um yeah, everything  everything that I pro provided for you about the   clerk's role and the code ordinances was just  for information purposes. You had requested an   a a little uh 10 governmental accounting 101. So  that's why I presented it with my section and I'd  

be happy to answer any questions you have, but I  think you're right. I just it was forformational   purposes and just so you kind of get a feel  for the difference between the charter and   the ordinance because that's it. So we talked last  time about the you've got the city manager, you've   got the city clerk and city the attorney written  inside the charter and we want the descriptions   to be uniform and they're not. So if we look at  the city when we're talking about city clerk now   did something happen inside the charter that made  the city clerk the finance person they have it's   why so much longer right how do we consolidate  that how do we clear the lines well let's do   this do you mind if we do audience participation  and then we'll I mean that I mean that's going   to be number basically nine 10 and 11 I think  are going to be connected to the other so Um, where do our audience go? I'll look down  for one second. The only ones online,   sir, are um Miss Ward and Mr.  Cal, the SOE and deputy SOE. So,   um, is it Brenda? Brenda. Brenda. Okay. Well,  I mean, when she comes back, she's got Carla's   looking for. All right. Um, so we'll revisit  that if we need to. All right. Eight, discussion   regarding elections to include election timing,  election process. Who wants to start there? I think where we left off, we we voted to move it  to November and do that. So then the next thing,   and I don't know if this is a charter question  or not, is the timing. Do we lengthen the the   term of the present commission or whatever the  commission is at the time the new charter goes or  

do we shorten the time? I don't know if that's a  charter decision. I have no idea. Talks about that   being I thought y'all I thought y'all kicked that  to the commission. It was it was how to determine   who's on the November ballot. That's what y'all  have to decide today. It was either to shorten it   by six months or it'll be a commission decision.  Not till Okay. All right. I think that's how you   left it. So then the election part is done and we  voted to move it to move it, but now we need to   decide the way which we're going to do. Yeah. The  details of how to do closing in on it. So I think   we got the you know they gave us the three options  there. I think that's where we are and I think   rather than saying November, I think y'all voted  to move it to align with the uh state and national   elections. Now the question is how does that fit  into the August primaries and and that memo to me   I'm hearing two different things. Number one is  great, we've aligned it or we we we're suggesting   that we align it with the national elections,  but the question is going to be who's up for this   national election or not. Whether that's a charter  decision or a commission decision and then the   other part would be the primary runoff process.  We still haven't hashed that out yet either. And   whether that whether or not that actually goes  in the charter or not, right? Correct. However,   I do believe I I do believe y'all said though that  whether or not, you know, folks are actually up in   27 or if they, you know, run in 28. That was y'all  were kicking that to the commission. That's what   y'all said last time. Shortening or extending the  terms will be left to the commission. I think that   the manner of the election we have to decide.  That is correct. That is the process of the   transition of whether a a term is shortened or  lengthened. the statutes give to the commission  

to decide but by law like we cannot decide that  it's it gives them that power. So you could make   a recommendation but then they would be able to  do what they want. Um but the process for when   you have a prime, you know, what happens at the  primary, what happens at the general election,   how that's done, um that would be in the charter.  To make sure I understand right, the the timing of   the election, even if it's included in the  charter, is still ultimately a commission   decision changed by the commission. Okay. Sure.  The process in which that election happens,   whether there's primary or runoffs or plurality or  all that other stuff that can be determined that   can be determined in the charter and that is not  a commission. If it's in the charter, then that's   not a commissioner, right? And they can't change  that. So this this discussion would be about   the process. as I understand it mean options  one two and three what what are the feelings I believe that is and I'll just point out Mr.  chairman. Um I did kind of go   through this memo again. Um the  one that was dated November 7th   u that shared some additional information and  the change that Tallahassee made specifically   relevant would be the very end of page  three of that come out dated November 7th. We have memo. Do we have that? It's It should be   in your P. Do you have your old  files? I'm happy to pass it out. What is there a name for option two that  uh Zimman's team beach option? Well, the  

it's typically it's typically called plurality.  Read the paper. Hey, where where there's only   one election. It's it's uh colloquial colloquially  sometimes called first pass the post. It's whoever   gets the most votes even if that's you 26% or if  you had 10 c candidates and the and the candidate   that had the most votes only had 12%. It's  whoever gets the most votes. It's one election.   Uh no runoff unless there's an exact tie and then  you would draw lots or so. So this is everyone   competing regardless of their party affiliation or  lack thereof. Well, our election is nonpartisan in   the in the every election that I've looked at on  the municipal level has been nonpartisan. So, this   it would be, you know, nonpartisan race. That's  what you're asking him. Yeah. So, so the Democrats   wouldn't have a chance to get their champion.  This is our champion and the Republicans wouldn't   have a chance to get theirs. It's just people  are out there and all in the same pot. Right.   Right. It's not a it's not a classic primary as we  think that it's a general election, one election   and no runoff, but we call first pass the post  or plurality race. And number three is the top   two. What's that generally called? that kind, you  know, I don't know what it's generally called,   but that's the the standard that we normally think  of when we are electing congressmen or our state   legislators where you have a a primary and then  uh the two candidates then go on to the general   election. What we think of now, that's in partisan  races, we have a nonpartisan race, so it would be   the top two candidates. But that I I really I  kind of looked a little bit to see if there's  

a name for that. It's just in my mind the standard  for what we normally expect in a in our state and   national elections. That's what Tallahassee did.  Yeah. So we can call it the Tallahassee option.   Yeah. Option two or three. Right. So option  two is winner takes all in November. Correct.   There's no runoff. It's whoever has the most and  no and no nominating primary. charge on there's   one election and then option one is there is a  primary and it requires 50% but doesn't go to   November if that 50% if that person chosen is  over 50%. So it can stop in August but turnout   will be lower in August. That was, if I may, Mr.  Chairman, if you look at the bottom of page three,   that was originally the way Tallahassee set  it up. But again, on this memo, on the memo,   yeah, on page three of the memo, um, is the  reason that they made a change is that again,   expanding on the conversation between Miss Goon  and and Miss Smith was the purpose of the August   election is not to determine who's going to serve  in office. The purpose of the August election is   to determine typically who's going to be on the  November ballot. So the challenge with let's   say you have seven people qualify for a ward one  it's an open seat you know seven people you could   conceivably have someone win with 18% of the vote  if you decided all in November so I think that's   why you you don't really see that a lot yeah  you're basically saying there's like an option   four that's if somebody gets a majority at any of  the stages I disagree with the majority act I'm   not saying I'm I'm just saying you're saying there  is a fourth option that's modified to the point,   Mr. Chairman. That's what Talahhatsy originally  did, but then again, they revisited it because   the goal is to have whoever serves in the  office to be selected at November ballot. So,  

what they did was they made a modification.  Uh they moved the election to November   um if only two candidates qualify. So, if only  two people qualify, there is no August election.   Those two go from June qualifying week straight  to November and they have nothing to do in August.   uh if three people qualify or four people qualify  then the there is a basically a a winnowing down   of the of the candidates to two people and it  doesn't matter how many percentages you get   again because the turnout in August is is much  lower and so even if you get 51% you might be   getting 51% of 20% of the voters and that's  what we're wanting to avoid. to the top two,   then advance to that. And somewhat to Miss Skoon's  point, depending on what type of primary you have,   you know, you I I'll pick an example. Let's say,  you know, back in in 2022, there really wasn't a   Republican uh primary nomination for governor  because the incumbent governor, Mr. Dantis,   was the incumbent. So, there was much driving  Republicans to the polls in August. However,   there was a competitive Democratic primary.  Well, the reverse could be true as well. That's   why again, August is not really meant to select  who the elected official is. It's to determine   who's on the November ballot. And so that's why  Tallahassee made the change they did to advance   from the August primary the top two vote getters  regardless of the percentage. Therefore, the   elected official is always chosen in November of a  gubernatorial year or November of a presidential.   So board members who want to go first with their  suggestion and why I have a bigger option why the   sir following that I have done is we want to be  able our contender to be chosen on November or   the November election right the that's when most  people show up to vote right it's like voting  

experience the voting season and it's convenient  and that's where If I choose to vote for national,   if I choose to vote for local, that's my voice,  right? The I'm not for the plurality vote and   nobody that I have talked to before one or takes  all because what is all if all is subjective to a   small group of people and a all is not everybody.  All is not number. All is where everybody gets   not turned into it's not convenient for partisan  nonpartisan. So it's everybody I've talked to has   said awesome. Yeah, I I I agree with I think the  majority is important and I think that this issue   with if there are just two people and we just go  straight to it and that way they're going to get   a 50% plus. I think you plural even at a general  you have a bunch of people running together you   could have someone who votes for 20 and it's going  to create governance problems kind of later on.   I think it's important for them to get a mandate  from people. Cecil I'm in agreement with for their   rationale and I just think most of us expressed  that we desire to get more participation when   um good ideas and bad ideas can come from the  citizens but when more people participate they   tolerate what that governmental body does because  hey we selected them so let's give them a chance   versus they just got in with you know 18% % of  the vote. They don't they're not legit, you know.   We'll sign a comment. I have a question if I may.  What if this name address, please? Brenda Lewis   Williams, 2748 Oak Drive. Thank you. If if this  doesn't work the first or the second time around,   is there the possibility of changing it because it  doesn't work? I keep hearing voter participation,  

voter education. Voters are only going to come  out if they want to. I don't care what kind of   election is fair. So if this doesn't work, are  you going to bring this back to the table? Just   a question. Yeah. So part of the charter review  was that this comes up for review every 10 years   during a census. So it's mandated that we're going  to put this in the commission creates a charter   review committee every 10 years. So that would be  an opportunity. I think it would be unfair to say,   "Oh, this didn't work the first year. This  didn't work the second year. It's going to take   longevity. It's going to take a commission that's  going to support this." Right? And ultimately,   this entire charter has to be approved by the  people anyhow, right? So, we're putting in checks   and balances to make sure that this is under  constant review every census. That make sense?   Yeah. That would be the opportunity to adjust. Mr.  Chairman, I I would say I mean the only way this   isn't working is if the specific city elections  in November of the good minatorial or presidential   election year only about 20% of the people that  are voting are voting. I mean otherwise I don't   know how it wouldn't work. Yeah. So I'm not really  I'm not really sure. I understand not working.   That would be the only thing failure. Ask for  another question. Yeah. S how how would you define   that it's not working? Well, my experience  over the past 20 plus years with voters,   voters only come out when they want to come out.  And we talk about voter education. I've really not   seen voter education per se. But if it doesn't  work, waiting 10 years, I I believe is too long   to wait to change it. So you should put a caveat  in this that if at 5 years it's it's not working  

then we go back to the table or the drawing board  if you will. I'm not trying to make there's a lot   of factors in determining whether voters come out  a lot of factors. And I don't I don't I don't see   where you all are taking those. I don't disagree  with what you're saying. What I'm saying asking   is if it doesn't work, what are you going to  do about it? And and I'm I'm I guess I'm going   to push back a little bit. How do we measure if  it's working? What does that mean? The numbers,   okay, numbers that come out, you can compare  the the current numbers to past numbers. Um,   war two for instance, there's something 7,000  people in W 2 might be a little How many is   in there, Jonathan? Do you know off the top of  your head? Uh, war two is uh as of November 6th,   uh, W 2 has 4,649 registered voters. Only about  400 of those voters came out. The last major   election that we had where we had everybody in  the city come out was when um what's his name? Uh   Obama and Trump. We had a large number with with  Biden Biden um no uh Camala Harris and Trump but   in between that's only presidential but it doesn't  impact the local that much. go back and look at   the numbers. Hold on, Jonathan. I don't think the  data supports that. I thought the alignment with   the general election always uh I mean empirically  gets more participation. That's what But yeah,   I think if you look at this memo, okay, do I Yes,  ma'am. And if you have any follow-up questions,   I'll be happy to answer them. Sure. And I think  to that extent that maybe to Brandon's point that  

walking out on that November election with a  result And just I think obviously it's going   to increase participation. It's not going to  decrease participation. I don't see any world   where that happens. Yeah, it's going to be a  time component anyhow. How many how many local   elections are we going to have over the next few  years? And each one are going to be W specific,   right? Because they're on a rotating schedule. So  W participation, this is where voter participation   or voter education is so subjective that is  really driven by the elected official, right?   whoever's sitting in that seat, how do they  garnish to get people to the polls? Right?   There's no process for that. We encourage it.  It's the same time every single year. So to   remove the subjectiveness from that, like do we  have a process that is scalable across the entire   city? That's fair. Does that make sense? And I  think that's what we're charged. We're not charged   to create a solution for a problem that doesn't  exist yet. Keep in mind, I said I fundamentally   I do not disagree with this. I just have some  concerns. What I'm what I'm looking at is you   talking about education about elections. That  sounds like a great idea and that's a part of the   dayto-day decision for staff to get the word out,  whatever else. I'm I'm trying to couple how does   the runoff primary nomination process tie. Those  to me seem to be independent factors. I'm sorry.   Say that again. When you talk about increasing  voter turnout through election education,   love it. That's city manager commission. Yeah. You  know, that that might be a recommendation that we   make to the commissioners is that we make it very  very clear how to vote, where to vote, all that   other stuff. You know, right now we're talking  about the process in which the vote occurs. Those   to me are kind of independent things. And so, Ron,  I think we left off with you. Where are you at?

Um, first of all, 10 year charter review,   if we go through and everybody's at four  years, this is two elections. All right? So,   10 years is not a long time when you're  thinking about the the election cycle. Um, I've said it before, I'm a proponent if there are  three or four candidates in August, I'm one of   them and I work my butt off and I get 51%, I'm in.  That's my position. I shouldn't move to November.   Um, yes, there might be more turnout, but that's,  you know, I I understand that November generally   has more turnout, but, you know, I I I'm not  backing off from that cuz I'm done, you know,   and it's it's hard. So, you're option one then.  I'm option one. So, just a note, Callaway in the   Beach actually recently made this change as well,  just for option three. moving it to no to move   them to November to make sure option three I do  agree if you only have two that they automatically   go to November that happened to me too that's  not a problem so then you could potentially   there could be a fourth option where there's not  well if there's only two they're going to go to   November anyhow there's not there's three and it's  51 2425 51 wins and off you go well and what that   creates though is if there's knew it would have  to be borrowed and November. There would be a   problematic automatically finish off. So, so my my  two cents is and and I guess I'm disagreeing with   Ron here. I just I want a winner in November.  I really think that's important that there's   there's that's where it occurs. And I just I don't  I don't like the runoff thing because I think it   it unnecessarily exaggerates the election season.  I mean, if it was truly my vote, I would do option  

two. Um, I think it shortens the election season,  just makes it easier, whereas a primary system,   but I I don't have a lot of passion about the the  primary type system there. I just my my big thing   is I want a winner in November. What? I want a  result in November. I I just I don't like the   idea of the runoff where it just to me there's  like election fatigue and then all that kind of   stuff and then and then I just I I get it and and  perhaps if I was in Ron shoes and I ran and I vote   and I got that vote, I'd be having the exact same  thing. I just I like the result at the general   election and going from there and I just don't  like the result either before or after. So that's   where I'm at. Yeah. I my opinion on it and I'll  just reiterate this like I totally I've never ran   for and I hope never will to be hearing about how  much struggles I get that you come from a personal   experience. from a political experience. Um, not  personal or professional, but from a political   experience, the folks that I have talked to, they  don't care how hard it was for you. Like, you're   going to work hard for the next four years for  them anyhow. Yes. Right. Um, but for their voice   to be as loud and to be as effective, the November  option is, like you said, it's it's the wow   factor. We just need to determine, are we going to  entertain plurality, which we've never entertained   before. I have everybody I've talked to said  platality is not the way to go. Um it's going   to be option one or option three specifically from  the folks that I've talked to. But we're here to   make decisions not how it impacts us but how it  impacts the people and what do the people say and   I've got 100 folks that said through option three  how many people any other discussion or council   say you want to make can I do a motion that we  adopt option three second all right any other  

debate or discussion all I guess you can call  the role vice chair Henderson Jansenius Yes,   Miss Skoon. Yes, Mr. Danzy. No, Mr. Ferrer.  Yes, Chairman Burr. Yes. Motion passes 4 to one. Can we wrap that one up? It was a big one. That  was a big one. That was a good front. Okay. Can   I tangent super quick? Ne and just so y'all know  cuz I've been on a lot of boards now. I'm all in   with your options. There you go. got really I  didn't like I didn't like this anyway. Yeah,   I didn't like any of this for the record. Yeah,  I think we understood that you're just very clear   and you've had you know different experiences but  you're definitely a team player. It's somewhere   in here. I mean once the decision was I would I  would start and I think there is a vote that I   was like but everybody went that way. I don't want  to support it. Right. Do we have like a a working   draft of the charter circulating at all of with  the changes? Yeah. Okay. I was thinking I think   we should by se it's by sections. I think we've it  is I just didn't know if we have kind of a living   document that's kind of falling along. Maybe put  it all together. All the ones that we've adopted   up to now. We would like to work on it. Unless  there's no serious one. Yeah, that makes sense.   there. Yeah. So then I guess tell me if there's  any opposition to this that for with each meeting   why don't we kind of have the red line version of  of where we are with things. Is that fair charter?   I love that because that will help us if there's  something that's conflicting. Oh well we didn't   know we were going to vote this way. Well, and one  of the things that we talked about, if I recall,  

at one of the very first meetings was also just  a little bit of the word smithing that perhaps   it was clear to us what the intent was, but  then by the time Nevin or puts pen to paper,   sometimes it doesn't always come out the exact  same. Not not that Nevin's not going to draft   it appropriately, but sometimes it's not as  clear or whatever. So, yeah. Is that fair? So,   we'll have a red line version for each everybody's  sort of closer to the decision. Yep. All   right, let's talk about all the great and  horrible things that Jonathan's doing. So,   are we going back to the role of  the clerk? Because when you wanted manager, yeah, it's number 11, manager.  I I'm I'm very open to discussing 9, 10,   and 11 in tandem. I can go any direction. Um,  well, we just spent so much time on on the the what we were just talking about 10 minutes  ago, so that I'm kind of fresh on that. I mean,   you're Sure. Go for it. Yeah. Okay. Thanks.  Um, I like I think we can clarify the role   uh the way it's written, but I like what's  been explained to me, the way that it's been   explained and how it's actually working. And  we can go back and look at the language of the   interaction between John, the person, the  city manager, or the city clerk, you know,   to make sure it follows what they're saying. But  I think that's good to have the city manager have   operational authority and responsibility but have  a possible check and balance with the city clerk  

or whatever procedural whatever issues that could  be seen like hey that's not clear or I really   don't agree with that designation. I don't think I  think that that independence should be maintained. So meaning you still think it should be  a um looking forward Jonathan a charter   position. Is that the right word? Correct. Or  a charter officer or I think that's sort of   I should have said that. But in order  to maintain that level of authority,   I think you have to it has to be something that  comes from the child because again worst case   scenario you get someone in the seat who  either a weak city uh clerk an over strong   city manager and if everything comes down  to the city manager without the ability to   hey you know let's look more closely at  this you know things could go All right. Everybody's looking at me. Okay. So, I I take the  other position of things going arai. If if if it   really got difficult the way it is now, the clerk  could supersede the county manager and go straight   to the commission. City manager, not county. Huh?  City. Oh, I said county. Sorry about that. city   manager. How dare you demote me? No. Just kidding,  Bob. I I don't like that. I I'm in the position to   have a CFO position that reports to the manager.  Um I've looked at some other cities um for charts.   One of them that was impressed me was that they  had uh three charter officers, the attorney,  

the city manager, and then an internal auditor.  Not the CFO, just an auditor in that position.   That intrigued me a little bit. Um the rest of  them are all over the place. Florida, Mr. Dy,   that's in Florida. Coral Springs. Springs. Yeah.  um that because I believe there needs to be some   checks and balances. I do believe that. But right  right now it's to me it's really vague and and   I don't like fingerpointing. And so right now it  works well. But we have to think long term of when   these people are not in the seats of something  happening with the budget and the clerk saying,   "No, that's not my job. That's his job." The  city man, oh no, that's your I'm not for that.   It has to be written down in I in my opinion  in the charter so there's no finger point. So,   okay. Are you maybe not suggesting, but you're  bringing up the idea of an auditor position that   that could work if if the if the charter wants  something different for somebody to just to keep,   you know, um on the table CFO or clerk,  whatever. I think CFO should work for the   city manager. City clerk would be subsumed under  city manager if we create an auditor position.   I mean it's more I just spit out some more money  but you know Yeah could be that budget manager   that we currently have could depends on there's a  separation of control and there again I don't want   to get into just appropriate checks and balances  need to be there and I agree with Brandon it it's   not there to me this is where I we have a city  manager system right it's not a city manager city   clerk system correct it is a clear city manager  system. Are we basing the question, how did we get  

to where you only have $100,000 sign off? If you  craft the budget and this commission signs off,   their job is oversight, right? Your job is to be  onsite and have insight like and if we are a city   manager position, we've got three city managers.  You should have autonomy. You shouldn't have your   hand. I should be able to trust you. I should  have checks and balances in place that trust that   you're managing this. You should have autonomy.  about how many assistant city managers you have,   but like when you go there's nothing inside and  there maybe there doesn't need to be something   inside the charter, but it needs to be so clear  that you don't manage any differently. If you do   manage differently than the last city manager,  you manage within these parameters, right? And   budget and finance have agreed. If we grow to be  a $400 million city instead of $150 million city,   like those those parameters are going to change.  I would expect and they haven't changed over time   for you to only have autonomy of $100,000 for us  to say that this system works the way it is. The   last commission it didn't work because of this  of this dynamic, right? And it's working now,   but is what we got going to work in the future  for us? Does that make sense? And I don't think   that it does because it's not clear. If a CEO,  a city manager manages the city, he should be   accountable to the finances for the city. Now, you  should be have autonomy to go to the person who's   responsible for it, but that person shouldn't  report to the city commissioner. This current city   commission, they're asking for more powers, right?  Because they get a lot of complaints. They're the   chief repeating officers for the city. They're  the chief complaint officers and I know it's not   clear. It should be going through your department,  but like they get you had a conversation at the   last commission meeting about what half million  dollars worth of paving equipment. Like why is the   commission having those conversations when it's  you're responsible for that? You're accountable.  

You went through the departments. You went through  all that stuff. You present it to them and you're   ultimately accountable to whether that wins  or loses. So the budget was changing. That's   their decision to make. It's the commission and  commission only. But the ordinance right now   and we've overordinanced ourselves. No, by state  law. So it's an appropriation issue. So if they   haven't appropriated or budgeted the money,  then it had to go through that public process   for them to make an amendment to the budget via  resolution. So that's the state process we follow.   But that I guess I'm not concerned about such the  procedural commission meetings to adopt policy,   right? That would have been a policy thing  removing money. They got too far in the weeds   operationally. How are we supposed to afford this?  How's this going to work? Don't disagree with you,   but the same in the same in the same meeting in  our consent agenda, there was two half million   dollar garbage trucks that sailed through because  they were budgeted. So, it's similar. I I think   that might be Mr. Henderson Jensenius's point  is that correct me if I'm wrong, but like if   something's budgeted, why would it go back to  the commission? Like why is it $100,000 limit?   That that's a policy decision that the commission  has made through a resolution adopting the the   purchasing policy. They could change that at the  next meeting if they wanted to. They could. And I   think the reason they've gotten to where they had  to write that policy in the past is because this   finance foundation is not clear. It was $25,000  until October of 20. They want it lower. I mean,   yeah, it was $25,000 until October of 2021.  Then it went from 25 to 100. That tells me   that over time, the previous commissions didn't  trust the city manager. And rather than hold him   accountable, do what they've empowered him to  do, they tried to policy it to death to take   responsibility to the top. And that should not  have been allowed. We should trust the process.   We got to create this foundation that's finance.  It always comes back to a finance discussions.  

Like if you make the budget, you're accountable  to it. And if you get to put it on the agenda,   you should know that it's going for us to  make a decision, not for us to discuss and   play in operations and play in how we're going  to execute. Like we've overpoliciated ourselves   forever because this foundation's not clear.  And you agree with me on that. Yeah. So, I vote   I would I'm not making a motion yet. I would vote  that the city clerk rolls up to the city manager and then there' be two charter officers. What  do you mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. We talked about city attorney. What  would that really look like? Because   the city managers ultimately  if the city attorney goes away,   who's interviewing and preparing the  city to replace the next city attorney,   the commission? The commission. And are they is  that their jobs or is the city manager the one   that should go out and find the next attorney  relationship? He's the one that's accountable   to paying for the city attorney. Like to me, the  commission is the board. They need to be educated,   but their number one responsibility is to the  people. Jonathan's responsibility is to the city,   right? And the city's responsibility is to the  people. Government and Nevin, correct me if I'm   wrong, but Nevin is really the commission's  attorney. I am I represent the commission   commission. The working relationship's good with  the city manager, but if they got wrinkled up,   he represents the commission. Well, then  I the way it is. you have to get offices. Now, practically though, I would, you  know, if there like prior to well,  

let me use my business as an example. I mean, you  know, they basically appointed the clerk and the   attorney to do the practical work to finalize  my contract and do all that. They initially   told the city attorney and the HR director to  come up with the job description and post it.   So, you know, in say like 25 years when Mr.  Zimmerman retires at, you know, 97 years old,   um, you know, they probably would empower to  some degree, you know, whoever's in my seat at   that time and and potentially the clerk or the HR  director to craft a job description and post it   and do all the leg work, but ultimately they're  going to sign off on who sits in the charter   positions. But all the leg work and all that,  like all that's going to be done by probably the   city manager and the city clerk. That's typically  how it's done with the charter officer positions. Tribute. I'm still thinking. You want to go first? I'm still I'm still collecting my thoughts.  uh stand here a minute just to Yes. talk to   you about the how the county works and it's not  a direct parallel um that the county has a you   know separately elected city clerk and of course  there I mean county uh clerk and um and that when   I was county attorney there was always debate is  that the best way to do things and all but from   uh the clerk Brook's perspective it was  very important was Harold Basil now it's   Bill Kinsaw it was very important that they  had pre- audit and post audit functions and  

that their reporting obligations were separate  uh than I mean they of course they're separately   elected but they had a separate uh constituency  separate role than the county commission. So,   they felt it was important, the clerk's office,  that they had that separate role. School board,   of course, they don't have it quite the same,  but you have another anomaly in having your   um city manager, so to speak, your supervisor  of elections separately elected. But I just   wanted to point that out. That's how the  So the city right now works a little bit   like the county in that the clerk reports  to the commission, not the city managing. So my my thought is to I kind of blend what you  guys are saying and have three three charter   roles but the the the financial oversight is more  of an auditor checking formalities type role and   they're they're independent so they can make sure  that the expenditures are properly documented.   They make sure they get accounted for properly.  what what feels awkward to me is you know having   departments roll up to that role as well and so  it's almost like this weird kind of like offshoot   whereas and I also think the other the other issue  is so I kind of have this vision where the that   auditor CFO whatever title we end up giving that  functions kind of similarly to the legal council   that can function independently and if city  manager or one of the other officer positions   there should be no hesitation about bringing  that from a legal standpoint because you're not   you're not accountable to that person and also the  legal I mean I don't know how many people are in   the legal department and you know you got the firm  and access like that but it's probably less than I  

mean it's not dozens right I mean it's not dozens  um and so there's there's a certain amount of like   budget that's allocated towards that whereas  there should also be like a certain amount of   budget that's allocated towards all the financial  oversight from a regulatory standpoint compliance   standpoint all this other But also I feel that  those are also like very disperate skills. So   what I mean by that is I know Nevin's a fantastic  manager, but usually what makes somebody who a   great attorney does not necessarily make them a  great CEO. It's just not like I I'm dealing with   it as I grow my law firm all the time where it's  just it's a real challenge. Whereas that manager,   they're more of the the people the man I mean it's  literally in the name. It's the manager, right?   So they're they're dealing with the leadership  skills and the mentoring and all the other stuff   that happens there. And and I I mean I I think  you find a very rare very rare bird that is the   no slided jan the the the bean counter number  number cruncher whatever and they're also just   amazing with people. As a matter of fact I don't  want them I want them to count numbers and make   sure that the the the greens line up and the reds  line like all that stuff and and you do financial   oversight and then let the manager be the people  person that that oversees all the departments.   I mean that that just seems a lot cleaner almost  like a judiciary and then a a legislative branch   that you know for black that controls the  purse rings and then you've got the person   who executes all the the stuff. Well, you know, a  lot of ways, Mr. chairman. It's you look at think   of like even in the federal government, you may  be a cabinet level secretary, but there's still   an IG at each of those departments that has, you  know, a pretty high level of autonomous authority   for those type of thing for certain types of  things. So, in the past, huh, in the past,   we've been fired at that level. I would almost be  in favor and we've seen this right between Haven   and now city beach finance problem saying when you  pause there for a second better add something else  

to that correct I I would be in favor of adding a  third auditor but I would be in favor of whether   it needs to be a charter item or not but having a  third party audit they do that anyway they do that   annually it's a request by the state Tim Marlor  is our is a third party audit firm. Y but we're   doing it anyway. I don't think we need to have a  second I don't know how deep dive they do. Yeah.   I mean when when we had the the theft uh from the  the it wasn't affiliated with the city but it it   certainly supported a city program uh from the  friends of ASAP Inc. when we had the the theft   from Michael Johnson we engaged a a uh a forensic  auditor which is an entirely different skill set   which goes transaction by transaction. and they  can tell you the dollar stolen that bought the   dollar of liquor from the discount liquor store. I  mean, they can connect the dot that way. I don't I   don't know if that's what you're looking for  that standpoint, but it may be that more of,   you know, that transaction audit  that Typton Marlor provides for us. In my experience, the internal auditor really  is they really don't do anything. Yeah. salary   for that. Yeah, I don't disagree with that. As a  matter of fact, I worked with at the city of Fort   Lauderdale for a short period of time and they  had a they were the internal auditor was trying   to wrap up a storm water audit that they've been  trying to wrap up for like five years because they   couldn't get an answer from the treasurer and I  answered their questions in like a week and it's   just they don't get a lot. There's because they're  a direct commission appointment and they don't   really have they have maybe two or three people  that work with them. They don't have any support.  

There's no support network for the internal audit  function typically. That's been my experience. Yeah, sorry. Thank you for adding that in. Um, from a point of view of representing  whistleblowers, the reality is it's very difficult   for people that are under one one lead to be in a  position where they're going to risk their job to   call something out. And we think we're setting  up that kind of of situation where people could   be afraid or they don't have the independence.  And believe me, people put up with a whole lot   of wrongdoing to protect their own personal job  because they have a family at home, all the things   that we're all in attached to. So it's got to  be egregious and usually cover a couple of years   before they speak up. This way we have someone  who's looking every day on a regular basis. I   think we can craft it to make it more clear to  delineate. This is your 80% of the pie and this is   your 20% of the pie. I think we have the capacity  to craft it to make the words say what they're   doing which I I personally really like and I think  it's unrealistic and unfair to put the burden   either on an internal audit which we heard is  just like more or less rubber stamping again the   pressures or an individual said something's wrong.  First of all those people don't have access to all   the information. They just think, they smell. The  whistleblower thing, which we're pushing in that   direction to give it all to one person, is a very  frail structure with very limited protections.  

Actually, under the law, it's really difficult to  trigger those protections. So, when someone comes   to the lawyer's office and says, I think I smell  a rat and this and that's going on. I in good   conscious advise all the pitfalls. And so a lot  of things I heard a lot of things about the city   and the county over the years. There was never a  formal complaint because the person kind of knew   it but didn't have a paperwork. So a lot of stuff  can be swept under the rug and things work like   the water supply thing. people were aware of major  problems with all the things we're dealing with   now 20 years ago chose and they knew that people  were making bad decisions. So having been in that   seat I like having someone who's trained is on the  same level with a narrow clearly spelled out role   there on an annual basis who is not afraid  to speak up and that is his or her job. I'm   just saying I I don't disagree with you. I think  though I'm not saying change what we're currently   doing. I'm saying change the dynamics of what that  looks like. Jonathan can tell you firsthand it's   not fair to have five bosses like and we should mi  mitigate that as much as we can. And we whether we   like it or not, we have a city manager commission  system. All right. Do we trust our city manager?   Is he accountable to managing this city? That  includes finance, right? Regardless of Jonathan   or anybody else sitting in the seat, do we have a  process for when Jonathan if Jonathan goes away,   something happens, the second city manager calls  into place, right? And that should be clear. It   shouldn't be up for debate. Shouldn't be at the  commission who they assign. It should just be   procedurally they're prepared operationally  for that next step to move straight into it.  

From the finance side of the world, the clerk  should have one boss who has the autonomy to make   that decision on are we executing against what  we're supposed to be executing. We could talk   about the dynamics of who rolls up to the city  clerk and who he wants to give responsibility to,   the water department or not a water department  or whoever money like that should be his decision   within reason. But the structure for the city  has to be clear. And that's where we kind of go   back to is it clear? The CEO should never manage  or deal with the frontline team members, right?   We're going to provide clarity on the deal with  too, but like he's got department managers. The   department managers should be managing their team  members, their crew leaders, their technicians on   the field, the police department. Jonathan's  not going to get into the police department.   This is what he's got the chief of police for.  This is what he got fire department for. Right?   We don't ever hear problems about the  structure from those two divisions,   those departments. The fire and police department,  granted, are paramilitary organizations. I mean,   they're I mean, so they're they're going to  follow rank and command very rigidly. Yeah. Uh   but our public works department like I mean it's  not in any way, shape, or form similar at all.   So I mean from a a rank and command structure,  it's more civil service. It's not about the role,   it's about the goal, right? Does that make sense?  Oh, it does. And are the goals clear? and he is   the one that's accountable to ensuring that each  of these departments have clarity on what these   goals are about rules the dynamic the structure it  all comes back to we respect the structure that's   why we're having the conversation about what is  the structure got is accountability clearability   can be shared but accountability has to be clear  so I mean I'm not arguing with you Bernie you you   keep saying accountability like what does that  I mean I know what it means But like are are you   looking for specific things? Like do you have  certain outcomes that you want certain roles to  

be accountable for? Yeah, we have city manager  structure. If the finances aren't clear at the   city, he would be if I'm up the commission,  he's the person I'm going to. I'm not going   to the city clerk and it's not clear right now.  It's clear that they share financials. I want to   stop with the city manager who is the CEO of our  city. Where's the problem at? Go fix it. Instead,   it's I think the problem's here. Let me go fix  it here. We've seen this on commission that how   we report on finances in the past has mixed  cash flow. And the average citizen sits out   there thinking we're broke. Like the city's not  broke. Cash flow-wise is different conversations.   And we have these we blended way too much instead  of the communication coming from the CEO of the   city of we're fine. We're the budget's at 85% max  regardless of when the money comes in the door   and we don't have to get into all that. We can  and he should have a means for what that looks   like to close the gap. The the level of autonomy  and the level of accountability had to be clear.   So I mean yeah a lot of that stuff seems to  be like day-to-day operational stuff that's   either established by ordinance or just legend.  I don't really know where it comes from. Um so   I'm wondering what language do we put where in  the charter think it would when we're starting   with a clean slate right when we look at the city  clerk. Oh one of how it got there. If I'm looking   at that, that probably needs to be cleared. And  if we change the structure, we're going to give   autonomy to the city manager to redefine what that  city clerk position looks like. Operationally,   however they've worked that out and the lines of  the charter, she now answers to him and it's his  

job to fix this going forward. Instead of us  overchartering it, having all these different   line items per city clerk and we're protecting  the city or the charter protecting the city,   we have a city manager commission structure who  it's his primary job is to protect the city. So,   are you at a point now where you're suggesting  that somebody draft something or come up with   something? Hear what you're saying. I'm trying to  think, okay, so now what? Yeah, I think right now   we're in discussion. That's fair. I think so. And  this goes back to the elections when we started   to get super emotional about it. I think we don't  make a decision today, but we all commit to with   the city's support between now and the next  meeting. The next meeting is in what a month?   February. Yeah. We understand what what would  it look like for the city clerk to roll under   the city manager? Where does that work well at? We  don't have to define the lines of autonomy there,   but like where does that structure currently work?  Can we kind of start with a clean slate? Is there   I mean is there support three of you to do that  now or you need more time? You mean today? Yes.   Well, I'm going to have to exit shortly, but you  guys can carry on. Even if I wasn't going to exit,   I think I would like to see some examples that  we have option one, option two, option three.   Okay. And then really bear down in my brain like  which But you're you're against it anyway. I'm   it could be a matter of semantics. I am saying  clearly it's very confusing the way it's written   and we should take a role in the charter  committee to clarify and that would require   writing and editing and clarifying and then  we also as we spoke at the last meeting why  

did the definitions look so different you know  they should be you know similar there shouldn't   be tons of paragraphs on one and then just bullet  points on the other So from the formatting point   of view and cleaning up point of view, I'm in  full agreement. I'm also in agreement that I   think the majority of the responsibility goes  to Jonathan. The only place I differ is I want   the city clerks to be on the same level to go  mono mono so to speak with if there is an issue   because I just think putting it all on the other  system is very frail and it's going to tend people   under reporting. You know it's going to have to  be really bad by a mile for us to hear anything   about it. This is a system that we're going to  put in. What would it look like in reverse if   Jonathan had no authority over the budget and  all of the finances sat with the city clerk? Wow. Well, where would the budget go? To the  city clerk. Oh, so budget budget and finance   to the clerk. Yes, there are some cities that do  that now. I've always had the budget. I This is   the first time I haven't had a budget. I don't  miss it if you're asking. all the right right   now. I don't miss it if you're asking. But in the  past, you would be the person had the finances   and the budget as a CFO. So, I I think we're  at the point to see living examples and maybe   some language that would support the different  sort of what we did with the elections. It kind   of was a little drawn out, but I think this is  really critical. I think we could work with Mr.   Zimmerman's team to find a couple of different  examples of like obviously we're an example and   before we get to that cuz I mean I'm I'm putting  myself in Nevin's shoes. I I wouldn't even know  

where to put pen to paper on what you've heard  so far. Um so where I mean where I'm at is all of   the day-to-day decision-m whatever else vested  in the city manager and all of the department   heads roll up to the city manager as the manager  of the departments. And then you've got a legal   oversight and financial oversight. And they both  maybe have their own support staffs just like law   does. Now you have parillegals and receptionists  and whatever else. But there's there's there's   no police doesn't roll up to law to the legal nor  does you know public works or whatever. That all   rolls up to the manager role. And I I I I see  a system where you have very clean financial   oversight by somebody who's not accountable to the  manager and they're there looking at that invoices   are submitted and spending thresholds are met  and and they're like that type of saying the same   thing. I'm just saying leave it with I got two.  Does that have to be a charter? I want them. Yes,   I do. Yeah, I think I think they are because I  I then then who else would they be responsible   to the the the person that's reviewing the  integrity of the financials and the integrity   of the not not the subjectivity of the spending  decisions but the integrity of them then I want   that person that's not uh responsible to the  manager. It's kind of like the fox in the hen   house to speak. somebody who's independent that  answers to the commission just like the city   attorney does where the city attorney feels the  liberty that if they see some legal improprieties   going on they're not real worried about staff  retaliation or anything like that because they   don't answer to staff they don't answer to the  manager chairman Danzy do you guys believe that   you guys are saying the same thing you've just  made a title change potentially or is that I   just want to see what the city auditor piece of  it my position would be that there would be only  

two charter officers the city manager They're not  saying not saying the same thing. Just making sure and we want where we're tied on is we want a charter level  person not subordinate or answerable 100% to   Jonathan. there's working relationship but they  do have that abil complete ability to do that just   like the city attorney can go to the commission  the clerk can go to the commission now in reality   people don't generally burn their bridges over  stupidity go over Jonathan's head when he can   just phone call been in politics generally because  that you know generally it doesn't happen because   it's such a political cost back to to do that.  I I would actually extend that to my colleagues.   We're even very careful that like if we hear  of any conversation with the elected officials,   we make all three of us aware or the other two  aware. I think that's fabulous. And your working   relationship is outstanding and should be signed.  Do this, do this, you know, for the state to see   how powerful people can work collaboratively  together. But you have the capacity. If there   was something a miss, you could go directly to the  decision makers, the policy makers, commissioners.   And I think the fact that you can keeps the store  honest. Do you know what I'm saying? Like I said,   I've been seeing on the county level and city  level where people are afraid to call things   out. It's just too high of a cost. whatever  we're at today, I don't think we have enough  

facts to really make a decision. It's a lot of  like what can you guys do to give us more? And I   don't know that we know what more is. Yes, I have  a suggestion, but today what we had prepared is   information and language about the city manager  and the city attorney. Very limited, you know,   changes and all. We had we really didn't get into  the city clerk. You did jump ahead to what? Yeah.   But we we are today. And so I think it would make  sense that there'd be more information next week.   Uh my analysis after hearing the discussion is  there's a fundamental issue is how many people   does the city commission hire and potentially  fire? Three. And we call them charter offices. Um,   so if that and and if uh and I think Mr. Dany's  suggesting that that be down to two and that the   city clerk roll under and report directly to the  city manager. I don't know. But that's kind of   a fundamental issue and and so that might help us  if we knew where you were on just that one narrow   issue. The other things the other things are what  does what does the clerk do? I mean forget about   whether the clerk is hired by the city commission  or hired by the city manager. I think Brandon,   a lot of your discussion deals with what is the  city clerk's role and um and we can I've talked   to Caroline. We can give you uh samples from the  model charter from the Florida League from other   cities where specifically where you can get  you know see how other cities have dealt with  

the issues that have been raised today. JP your  turn. I'm I'm somewhat agnostic about this. Um I   don't like to talk about myself, but I did run a  business for 15 years before I went to law school.   I understand the need for financial controls and  I've seen it how it works, both good and bad. Uh   I understand the need to streamline. I think both  ways were if you had to push me on today, I would   still leave it as an independent as a different,  you know, position. Um, but I could also see the   value in absorbing it down and making the city  clerk or department head. So, um, but yeah, if I   had to take a vote today, I'd probably be aligning  with the three of you keeping it with maybe   narrower duties that they have today. The other  the other thing too is if we do I'll say this that   if we do make it a department head know we talked  about this last time that the removal of the city   manager thing is something that we really need to  think about because if we're going to give more   power to the city manager need to make that more  flexible. So that's sort of my other point about   I wouldn't disagree with the two of you there,  but if we go to that route, we have to remember   on the back end here, we got to make sure of the  city manager where there was been some discussion   about making the removal of the city manager more  difficult. Oh. Oh, sorry about the question. We   did our voice the last you know and I'm my concern  is that if you know we do give more power to the   city manager position I need that removal power to  be the commission to be able to remove if the city   commission makes that decision just something that  was in the back of my mind where that feeds into   what we're doing. Absolutely. The three things are  really interrelated. You know, the all the three   charter, they are people. We need to and I think  we're running our our line. Our city is growing  

and we have do we elevate to a CFO or do we stay  where we're at with city clerk, right? And maybe   this charter's maybe not where we fix that. Maybe  the next charter review committee fixes it because   they're going to be big enough to have tackle some  of those concerns. like this to me this structure   is just as big or as dynamic as the elections  discussion. I agree. Right. So I don't think I   have enough information today. My gut would  tell me to cuz I managed $200 million worth   of companies. Right. I managed big companies and  the CFO falls under the CEO and these are rings.   I come from an operating perspective. So I think  like a city manager thing. Um I understand that   finally speak a different language. They don't  speak a people language. They speak a numbers   language. Interesting. The three lawyers are the  ones who are concerned about the problems. We   tend we tend to think that way. Yeah. Yeah. That's  true. Yeah. But of the loyalty and trusting, you   know. Absolutely. Running business if they don't  trust anybody. There's the door by easy. It's not   quite that easy in the city. And and I understand  again having run a business before for 15 years.   I understand that point. You have you have to  get the person you trust. You put them in there.   You check on them, but that's, you know, or else  you get them out. That's my removal point there.   Right. Right. Um, but is this structure going to  be scalable for a $300 million city? We're 400   right now. 400 million. Oh, I was thinking from a  budget perspective. Well, that doesn't include the   FEMA, the grants, the other uh internal service  funds. Yeah, we're we're over 400 now. I I think   where the clarity needs to come in view is that to  me the way the charter's written is not clear. I   would agree with you. I think so. Of what these  what the city clerk's position is. Let's put it  

that way. That is a true statement. And it's you  know there's I'm making this up. Three pages about   the clerk and one paragraph about city manager.  I mean, something happened and I don't know where   the history is, but for for it to be something  happened sometimes. Absolutely. Absolutely. I   think it's great that they have a good working  relationship. No, it is. But I'm looking to the   future. It could really be a mess if these two  didn't get along. Let's just put it that way. It   really could. Well, I think it's like good fences  make good neighbors. I think Robert Frost said   that, but um when you know that you're on equal  ground and equal authority that encourages, you   know, like data, you know, we we all have a power.  Let's be reasonable because and I think that's   part of encouraging good relations. You know, it  it's always interesting to see what I've been here   long enough that Jan's our second permanent city  clerk and I've been when we've been here and not   had a great working relationship with our city  clerk and I was I was interim city manager at   the time and and I will say settling disputes by  a clerk looking at you and go well I'll just go   to the mayor. It's just I mean there's it's like  well this is an operational issue but she still   reports to the mayor and the commissioner. So it's  like there's that's not me. No, it's not her. It's   absolutely not her. Make that very clear. It's  not Jan. Yeah, Jan and I are butts. So most times   no. What I'm saying is like it's good to talk  about what a like when you've got a great clerk,   but I think the charter has to be prepared  if you don't worst case scenario because you   know it's it's interesting with the things we've  seen locally and some other organizations with,  

you know, what's happened recently in the news  and and you're like, "Oh man, that does make me   think like a third somebody that may be outside  of my line of authority could insulate, you know,   the city manager." But then you look at well  are there things that that you want the city   manager to do that they're not currently doing to  your point like you know I come from the private   sector before I joined the city and and it was  always CEO seuite you know people and they all   reported to a board of directors and a president  so um I mean it's it's interesting to Dan I would   I would like for you to put your professional  cap on right so take yourself out of the seat   What are the opportunities inside of the  charter from your lens for the city clerk? Um,   I will look at that and get back to you.  Okay. For the next meeting. Um, I just want to   remind you that we talk a lot about your private  business. There's no expectation of transparency   or fiduciary responsibility when it comes to the  private sector like there is in the public sector.   So that's one thing that you need to keep in  the back of your mind when you're thinking about   segregation of duties. There's a reason for that  because we have a fiduciary duty to the citizens   and I would say this is my personal side. So the  way I manage my businesses is we are completely   transparent and the same way the city is and  that's my competitive advantage in my company   of how transparent we are from the CEO CFO to me  as a COO but we all fall up to one position that's   where my organ or chart structure kind of comes in  but the competitive advantage is the transparency.   Yeah, I've read a lot of pancakes that don't even  the exception, not the rule. Absolutely agree. And  

that's why I love working with you guys so much  because when I get to do personally, I also get to   do professionally. Well, it looks like we're going  to um maybe we can all plan on being just a little   bit longer than normal of a meeting next time if  we're looking at the different options, which they   usually provide us a few days before, you know.  So, if we're able with our schedule, just drill   down, come with your your red version of what you  have questions about the optional option to have   very many options. I'm trying to find it. I don't  know that we have one in February. March 5th,   I want to say we don't have one in February.  No, we don't. We moved this one up, I think.   Yeah, maybe we need to reconsider that since I  think the schedules couldn't align if I recall   correctly. Valentine's Day doesn't work  for everybody. It wouldn't be. It would   be February 12th. Also, Mr. Chair Madison, uh,  Mr. Ferrer asked for a copy of the or chart,   so I'll send it to all five of you. Yeah. Current  or chart, please. I don't is there a reason we   didn't do something on February 12th? I don't know  why. We had moved some clear something else. So,   I don't remember. Yeah, but I have a wedding  at the end of the month, but other than that,   from the city's perspective, the 12th and the  19th works be available at y'all's desire,   Mr. Chair. I would suggest given the  the 19th would be better for me, but I can do either one. I'm good either way, too.  Me, too. Okay. Yeah, the 19th gives us about   three and a half weeks or so between to kind of  gives them more time gives us a little bit more   time to chew on it and ask like we should probably  come better prepared with additional questions too  

like this is a big one. Is there anything  that we want anybody staffwise to prepare   or research or present or anything like that?  Yes, I kind of said it maybe not very clearly,   but but I think Nevin understood it that I wanted  some his version of option one, option two,   option three based on the discussions that we've  had about the clerk being a charter uh employee,   clerk not being one, who's, you know, answerable.  My what I'd like to see is some operational go   to to this the city manager and the review in a  limited fashion that we've heard that what they're   actually doing. I'd like you know what they're  actually doing. I'd like to see that written up   that way. And I'm sure the Florida League of  Cities would have some examples as well. We   as a good lawyer I try not to write anything  original and borrow. So we'll see what others   have done. We'll see what the Florida League of  City has uh on the about this discussion as far as   Clark and try to get that to you so you have it in  advance before the next meeting. I know there was   mention of Coral Springs and this other internal  auditor position as well. I'm curious about that. Yeah. Very few cities that I Googled had their  org charts. That was one that did. Um Okay. So   that's financial oversight position. What's  the recommended work chart for a city manager   commission structure, right? And did we  get away from that? Is this model away   from that? Like what's the recommendation  for we have this city manager structure?   Like when I look at like the International City  Managers Association and some of their guiding   documents and they're they and Florida City  County Managers Association also uh advocates  

for this this uh form of government because it's  just it's again more transparent and you've got   um professionals that that strive to do this their  their entire careers and get educated for it. they   um they they have a lot of those documents out  there, but it's very vague when it comes to like   is the city clerk your peer or is it a subordinate  position. Um I'll I'll tell you there's majority   of the city managers I talk to, it's it's uh the  subordinate position. Um and it's just because   hey, who takes care of your water bills? Who  who those disputes go to? And they're like, oh,   I have to handle I'm like oh my clerk does. and  we all grinned and they're like, "Right." No, but   at the same time, it's um but that's a majority  of the I think Florida League of Cities or the   Florida County Manager Association could kind of  put order to that. I just don't know if that's a   stat tracking. Well, and they're in Florida.  Those groups are kind of they work together,   the Florida County Management Association and  the Florida League of Cities. So, we'll make that   ask. So, but it's probably driven primarily, Mr.  Vice Chairman, by their charter. that's probably   going to really affectuate what the order chart  looks like. I think I'd like to take some time   because I want to talk to the commission too  and ask them and talk to the public. You know,   some of the legacy folks that have lived here  for a while, they've seen this structure. Would   you have changed it? Would you have changed it  20 years ago if you had an opportunity? Just   I want to kind of gather some more feedback  from the public too. Ask Tim Fontaine. Yes.   Yes. What? When you have a twohour window,  I think the vice chairman knows you better. I'm trying to button this up. Um, y'all  are going to provide just some norms,  

but some other acceptable practices by the  International City Managers Association,   which I'm sure their parties are unbelievable.   Um, yeah, they're really nerdy. Um, so you'll  provide some information with that. You can   also start working on a just kind of a working  draft and and and a redline version of that. Um, oh, I know what it was. Um, I would be very  open to also staff suggestions, meaning if   you guys think the language is perfect and it's  it's as as well written as is ever going to be,   that's great. If you're like, actually, now that  I look at it, it doesn't match what I'm actually   doing. And I think having an honest evaluation  of here's what it says, but here's not what's   happening. Then either we get back to what it  says, or we actually look at, well, let's let's   at least draft it accurately to what's actually  happening today. So it would be nice if you guys   could each look at your individual roles and just  kind of give it an evaluation of like, hey, is   this mirror what's happening today? Is that fair?  Yes, sir. Yeah. Just one housekeeping thing. This   is the current Burke Blue contract. The one you  have was just an earlier version of it. So yeah,   this is the sixth amendment. Did we Did you hand  those out to us already? They're in your packet.   That's what I wanted to see. Thank you. I'm trying to get the point. So motion  to Yes. Yeah. Motion to second right.   We we've got our our walk through papers of  what we need to do for next time. February  

19th. We've got February 19. I'll add that to the  calendar here in the next 30 minutes. Thank you. It's growing.