City - Regular Meeting

recording in progress uh meeting of the pacific grove city council this is a regular meeting wednesday july 15th 2026 at 6 00 p.m we're here at 300 forest avenue in council chambers uh as i said i'm calling this meeting to order and i will ask councilmember moreland to lead us in the pledge of allegiance Please join us.

To the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Thank you very much. And at this time, I'll entertain a motion to approve the agenda.

So moved.

OK, we have a motion by Rao, second by McDonald. Let's take a voice vote. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Hearing none. Passes unanimously. We'll proceed on the agenda as stated. And that'll bring us to item 2A, which is the big item for the night. This is the certificate of appreciation for the Pacific Grove High School baseball team, which we have. Yeah, let's give them a round of applause. We have them here. And this is the championship team we have here tonight in our chambers. I see most probably all the players are present. And I'm going to go ahead and come down and shake hands with your coach and present a certificate of recognition. This is the 2026 varsity baseball team, won the CCS championship, Central Coast section, Division VI. This was the school's first Central Coast section win in 13 years. It was also the first time in school history that the baseball team made it to the NorCal Division V championship game. So, yep. So what a great season the team had. I'm so excited that you're here tonight. We're all up here excited that you're here. The team mantra was team first and every player on the team lived that out. And the unselfish and supportive culture, along with the ability to stay positive no matter what the score was, is what propelled this team to their successful season. So I'm going to come down and present this certificate of recognition to the coach.

i'm down here um there's loot you've got us where we where we live thank you very cool okay thank you so much oh gosh they're fitted hats my little pin we have missing ones yeah extra small we can there we are get the photo if you guys turn around we'll stand behind you

see it Go hard, George. There you go.

There you go. Peace.

Thank you very much, guys. Appreciate you coming in. Congratulations. Congratulations. Congrats.

Congrats. Good job.

Well done. Well done. Yeah, of course. Thank you.

Do we look good in the hats?

I have a large, which is appropriate for me.

Okay, give the large to Nick. Thank you. I got Tina. I got her. Thanks. I have a giant head.

Let me see if the medium fits.

Thanks, everyone.

I appreciate you all coming. That's fun.

Take another picture? Black DLS later. Well, we're going to move on to item three, a report on closed session and I would recognize Mr. Jimenez at this time.

There you go.

Council reconvened from closed session and no reportable action was taken.

Thank you. Okay. That brings us to council announcements. Any council announcements? Mayor Mrakas, Any staff announcements, Mr mogensen Thank you, Mr Mayor.

Mayor Mrakas, Well, why this is not new news anymore about my departure, I do want to take a quick moment and just say that. Mayor Mrakas, I want to thank the mayor, the Council of the staff and the Community for the opportunity to serve Pacific girl for the last few years and. Mayor Mrakas, It has been an honor and a privilege and it's one of those things that i'll definitely remember you know forever. so thank you a lot for all the you know the embracement that i felt when i came in the first place um thank you the council for your trust partnership and commitment um that you've that you've provided to me and to the residents of course at pacific grove and to staff for their professionalism dedication and hard work and your daily efforts you know keep the city running and you make it you make a big difference in the lives of the residents businesses and everybody who crosses paths in pacific grove um thanks to the residents volunteers commissioners business owners and community organizations and there's probably many more but i want to leave anybody out there for your engagement passion and commitment to the city and because of this you know i'm sure that the city is going to be in great hands for a long time so thank you and i wish you the very best

Thank you, Mr. Mogenson. And I'll just tell you that from my perspective, I think all of our perspective, you've done a great job. We've really enjoyed having you. You're always very responsive to us, to the public, and we really appreciate your service. So we appreciate it. And we're sad to see you go, but we understand that people have careers and they sometimes have to make decisions and changes. So it's best for your family. So thank you very much again. And let's go on to general public comment. This is, and we're gonna have you around for a little bit longer. You have another one? Okay, sure, but you're not quite gone yet, so. Okay, we'll go to the next.

Thank you. Good evening, Mayor, council members, staff, and members of the public. I just wanted to announce that the nomination filing period opened for the November 3rd general election on Monday, July 13th, and will close on Thursday, August 6th, 2025. The following are upcoming seats available for nomination, Mayor, council member district one, council member district three, council member district five, and at-large council member, which is just a two-year term. Any information, please contact the city clerk's office. And there's also a lot of information on the city clerk's webpage for that same election. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Carindale. Very important. Thank you for not passing that up. Okay, we're going to go on to item 4A, general public comment dealing with matters within the jurisdiction of the city, but not on tonight's agenda. So at this time, does anyone have a general public comment they'd like to make in chambers? We have one person coming forward in chambers. Two.

Good evening, Mr. Mayor and members of the city council. I'm Kevin Hanley and I'm a Pacific Grove resident. First of all, thank you very much for installation of the stop sign on Congress. I mean, Congress and Lighthouse near the post office. It's great for pedestrians. I can tell the public safety has been improved markedly. Secondly, still on public safety. I would urge the council to put on your capital improvement program and seek funding to improve the crumbling beach walk along Ocean View. City staff has placed, I don't know, 20 plus orange cones there. It's really a dangerous situation. I wish that we had an easy solution of just moving the trail back. but at one point it's only five or six feet from the road. And in some places I would imagine it's 50, 75 foot drop onto rocks, not sand, rocks. There's a lot of tourists who come in from the Central Valley. A lot of people love one of the most beautiful beach walks in the world. And I'm just worried that if uh it continues to erode it's soft ground that people will fall and get hurt and secondly the city of course could be sued for liability and negligence so i would urge that you look for solutions i think you know the stone retaining walls has been a great benefit whoever built those uh John Potter, did an amazing job and has preserved much of the beach walk, but I think in certain places, it is required, and I know it's expensive, unfortunately, but I think in some places. it is needed. In Asilomar, the beach trail has been improved by the California Conservation Corps. They did a fantastic job. And I really have no doubt that State Senator Laird has probably been influential in getting that work done. So that might be a good cost savings to see if you can use the CCC and also Senator Laird may help with maybe easing the red tape a bit. I know it's complicated on the coast. So I would just urge that the city council take action to build some retaining walls, leave a great legacy for future residents. Thank you very much.

Thank you. All right, if you've got a couple more, please queue up if you're going to speak.

Good evening, Mayor Smith, council members. I'm Jeannie Anton. I'm from the Heritage Society tonight, and I'm just here to remind you and the entire community that the Heritage Society is hosting a fundraising dinner for the Chautauqua Hall, and it will be two weeks from tonight at Fandango here in Pacific Grove. When you call for a reservation, please mention that you are calling for the fundraiser or either that or when you come to the dinner that night, just mention it. And I appreciate them for hosting us, and I hope that you'll all come because it's really fun when we all come to dinner together. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Good evening, Mr. Mayor, Council Members. My name is Paul Dyson. I'm a recently arrived resident here in Pacific Grove. I just wanted to make a couple of positive comments about the local MST transit. Yes, it's a skeletal service. There's only a couple of routes. It runs hourly, basically during daylight hours, so you have to do some planning to use it. But the buses are clean, the drivers and operators are polite and helpful, and I've taken to using it quite a few times. And you can't do better than the fare for a senior like myself. It's just a dollar. And I plan walks along the coast to Asilomo and then take the bus back and so on. People we've got to use it or we will lose it seriously I don't see enough people using the bus a fair number of tourists do they can figure it out. But apparently the residents don't want to, so I hope that the City Council will do all they can, including yourselves using the bus as much as possible, thanks, thank you.

My name is Mike Gibbs, President of Pacific Grove, and I'd just like to congratulate Matt Mogeson on his promotion, his new job, taking on more responsibility. I'm sure he's the man for the job. I just hope he doesn't forget about Pacific Grove, continues to eat in our restaurants and work with us when it's possible. I'm here to mention a couple things. My wife founded something called Pacific Grove Cares. And just an update, a couple things that are going on with Pacific Grove Cares. Five or six months ago, we became a national affiliate of something called Keep America Beautiful. People call it KAB. And it's a fairly large organization. They do mainly, there are hundreds of cities around them. America that are part of Keep America Beautiful. And so far, it's been a pretty good relationship. We're in contact with other cities that are doing work similar to ours and support each other. Last week, on top of that, we became certified as a Clean California member. and this is in conjunction with the california department of transportation and they offer grants and other assistance which we'll be applying for and it was a fairly rigorous process it took us six months longer than kab we had to do a letter assessment we divided the cd up into five zones and then walked took pictures of the zones counted the trash how much a micro litter was it was there how much uh was there in a way of cigarette butts so we were notified now we're a certified member of clean california so that's my mind a pretty big achievement And the last thing I would mention is that if you haven't been by the community center, we've been working there and the plants are starting to take hold over 206 plants, eight trees. We're working with the city arborist to get some new trees in the tree wells, and he's come out personally and planted three. So it looks pretty good all the way around. and in in order to celebrate that recognize the volunteers that we have that have put a lot of time into this i will have a celebration all of you are invited you will get an invitation it's been on the chamber of commerce website and we're just calling it uh paradise pg so it's going to have a tropical theme you can wear your uh tropical shirt and we're going to have a sign at auction. Apparently I'm going to be in the auction and whoever the winning bidder is, I have to put on a hula skirt and do a hula dance. Don't look forward to that. All right, there'll be a silent auction with some iconic Pacific Grove art and items. It's August 22nd. That's a Saturday from three to five. Mark your calendars if you could be there. We would love to see you at the community center. We got the bathrooms working and we got pots on the inside. It's looking pretty darn good. So thank you for being here and we look forward to seeing you on August 22nd. Thank you. All right, let's go to the online.

Moving on to raised online, Mayor.

OK, I'll go ahead and close public comment then general public comment.

Move on to the consent agenda dealing with routine and noncontroversial matters.

And at this time, is there anyone members of the Council that would wish to pull a consent agenda item? And any members in the public online or I do have in Chamber Shands.

Yes, maybe this Christmas from you have the floor.

Yes, thank you. I want to have item G pulled.

OK. 5G.

I'm sorry, 9G.

9G.

Break up 9G and then anything else?

Inga Lawrence and Daimler.

Yes, I'd like to have 9H pulled, please.

Yes, OK. Can I get a motion to approve consent? And we'll hear 9G and 9H before the appeal hearing. Can I get a motion to that degree?

So moved. All right. We got a motion by Ralph.

Do I have a second? second second by mcdonald we'll take a voice vote all in favor say aye aye any opposed hearing none unanimously all other uh actions will be taken and at this time we'll take up 9g and i'll recognize leticia olivian to give the a brief staff report since this was on consent and we have already given the report to the public good evening mayor council members staff and members of the public

As everyone is aware, the city manager has tendered his resignation, and we are going to be executing an executive recruitment. We have selected Bob Murray and Associates because we used them in the last recruitment. They did a very good job for us. We did find a successful candidate, as you can see. The amount of the contract is $38,500, which is within the city manager's spending authority. And because we recently worked with Bob Maroon Associates, we feel that they have the prior experience and knowledge to work with the city and city council to know what our concerns are, what we're looking for, and familiarity with the community as well. Yeah, so that's about it. I'm going to conclude my report.

Thank you so that was an item nine G that's our staff report now I will recognize the caller that or go to the comment on the item and recognize the caller that the item.

Yes, good evening, Mayor and Council. I was concerned tonight with the amount of the recruitment costs. And I would hope that there are better ways to seek recruitment, such as using the California City Managers Foundation, which has a bulletin board, which and all the members are uh city managers assistant city managers and other public officials like that and they have a recruitment job recruiting board and it's well known and i think that's where a lot of the recruiting firms find the talent that they're looking for so i think there's a much better more cost effective way to do this since the last one you spend this money in two years it has 20 000 a year the cost of a city manager so we we really need to do better And no more sweetheart deals. And we need to review the contracts. And I think there should be public representation and oversight and start at square one and the new contract for the new city manager when they're recruited and have public oversight and review and quit relying so much on outsiders. That's it. Thank you. Thank you.

Any additional comment on this? I don't see any. Come forward if you're gonna speak.

Oh, thank you.

I think so. Hi, I almost forget. Hi, David Erickson. Welcome back, happy 4th of July. I just wanted to address this as well. I think there is probably a better way where we can have some civic, or at least the citizens be able to voice opinions on who's getting hired into it as well. So not just the selection, but having us involved in it would be really great that we could feel like we're participating in it and help pick the right candidate for the right position here. So that's all I have.

Thank you.

Mike Gibbs again. My only comment is I would like to see an accounting from the recruiting firm, from the executive recruiting firm, much like lawyers do. They break down their time on a half-hour basis. I'd like to see how they actually spend their time. To me, up to $38,000 is a pretty good chunk of money. I spent 25 years in executive positions in business and a great recruitment that only lasted two years. I wouldn't be too happy with the recruiting company. So I'd like to know exactly what they are doing. How many people did they check? How many resumes did they read? How much time did they put into this is what I'd really like to know. What kind of effort they gave this thing. and maybe tie something into the contract that says, you know, if the candidate only stays two years, they have to pay back 10% or, you know, some formula because part of their job is to ensure that they have a candidate and all candidates like, um, Mr. Mogenson are aspirational, and I get that, but they could have factored in the situation going on in Marina. I think it was fairly widely known that the city manager was going to be retiring at some point in the near future. To me, that should have been factored in. The second thing is that in the last go-around, there was a fairly well-known person who was a city resident, PG resident, submitted his resume for city manager. And you all know who it is, I'm pretty sure. This individual was not even interviewed for the job. Was he qualified? I don't know. um any city residents with the kind of background that this gentleman had should have had at least a chance for a half hour interview with the recruitment firm if anybody took the time to fill out the application and send their name in and if you if you don't know who this is you can ask me later but i think you probably know uh who that is a third thing is that um there are um in fact mayor smith may know this city manager i'm not plugging anybody in particular but his hometown has a city manager and i haven't talked to the guy but he's done a great job he's been there about 10 years in kingsburg california and he's really remade that city if you walk through downtown uh the downtown area is um Busy and full. They've attracted new businesses. And you see him at Swedish Festival flipping pancakes or Swedish pancakes. So he's out there mixing with the people. And that's where he learns a lot about what's going on. Every single business owner knows who he is. And it's the kind of person who would jump right in. He's a tough guy, smart, young. I think he's in his late 30s, early 40s. So got a family. and it was 106 degrees in kingsburg this morning so maybe and he plays golf maybe that's a small inducement so okay thank you thank you mr gibbs um anyone online i had one hand raised i thought but um i don't seem to see it okay go ahead and close public comment on the bob murray item i'm going to bring you back 9g to the council for discussion um

know i'll just point out you know there were some ideas thrown around i i think this is just we have a firm here that brought us matt and he's been wonderful uh i understand that the time was not as much time as we would have wanted but that's kind of the market these days and um these are extremely well qualified folks that uh are gonna bring us someone really excellent that's what we need so i'm gonna go ahead and uh hear from everyone else lori go ahead

Thank you. Yeah. And actually, it's a good point about the if they there is actually something in the contract where if they don't stay for at least a year, they do help us find a new person for no extra charge. So there is something like that built in the contract is not as long as two years, but they do recognize the importance of finding a good fit and having been on council when we hired Matt. And having worked with this company and going through the process, I just really feel like they did a really good job of knowing who to reach out to, who might be a good fit for the city. And I feel that what they offer for the cost actually brings us great candidates because with a small scrappy staff, but they can only take on, you know, so much extra work. And I think that having a consultant who this is really their area of expertise, I think that really sets us up for finding the best candidates to serve us because this is, to me, this is an investment in the best leader for our community. And we got a great two years of investment with Matt being here. And so we're super grateful for that. and while we would have loved to have had him sooner longer as well um i think that um having them find another candidate to kind of follow on with what we've accomplished in these last two years i think provides a lot of benefit thank you very much garfield

Yeah, my experience in executive recruitment is that this is extremely good deal. What I've seen more likely in corporate America is 50% of the annual salary. So this is a pretty smart deal for us. I think in the expense plus the benefit of all that's being included in that, including the one-year guarantee, money-back guarantee, should there not be a fit and the person leave after a year, within a year. I would echo what Council Member McDonald says, is that this is a recruiting firm that knows us well, and they know us in a way that – their knowledge lends itself well to successful recruiting, not just they know us. So their expertise in recruiting plus their knowledge of this community, I think serves as well. Anybody who has an idea about what they would be looking for in a city manager, You have our email address, please weigh in, let us know what you think are important aspects for council for a city manager. And those are those are good to receive. Appreciate it.

Thank you. Cosmo brow.

Thank you. I agree with Council Member Garfield and Council Member McDonald with those thoughtful comments. And I think sometimes, you know, I know that people don't like the idea of a consultant. I think the advantage of a consultant is it's a one-time payment and we don't have to pay hers. We don't have to... you know, add additional monies. And I think that is that is an advantage. It's sort of a one and done cost instead of an ongoing cost. If we had to hire a staff person for recruiting, it would cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars in ongoing expenditure. So I think sometimes a consultant or a recruiter is the more pertinent choice. So with that said, I would like to make a motion to authorize an agreement with Bob Murray and Associates for Executive Recruitment Services in an amount not to exceed $38,500. Second. Second.

Discussion on the motion, Council Member McDonnell.

Thank you, and I actually wanted to address the other comment that was made about having community input. The one thing that we really liked is that on the previous recruitment, there was actually a community survey because they did make a point of finding out what was important to the community. We're guessing that not much has changed in the next two years, and that'll be something discussed that we would necessarily need to invest in doing that again. But as Council Member Garfield said, we are happy to take input from anybody who wants us to ask certain things that we could include in that recruitment process. Thanks.

Okay, we'll go ahead and take a voice vote. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Hearing none, passes 5-0. 5-0-2. All right. And so welcome Bob Murray Firm to help us with the search. And moving on to 9-H, I believe is the other one pulled. The the subcommittee and advisors through the process of hiring the interim. That's my item. I will briefly summarize what was in the report, which was already pretty brief. What I'm recommending is we create a small subcommittee of the council to advise on the selection of an interim city manager That is because that process needs to happen very, very quickly. And we are going to act quickly. And also to advise, to help advise and keep a council conduit to the recruitment firm. And that's all I was trying to do with that, with this item. And I'll go ahead and recognize the, that is the extent of my report. And I'll go ahead and recognize Ms. Doimer at this time.

Thank you, Mayor. Angelo Anton Doimer?

Thank you, Mayor. Gee, what could go wrong? A subcommittee of two people joined at the hip that do not like to hear opposing views and voices at all and under the guise of advising. We need a city manager that is going to work for all of Pacific Grove, not just your little subcommittees. And you've just spent another under the city manager's hiring limit for $38,000 for another consultant. Leave it be to the consultant. Either that or pick someone who is not, Mr. Mayor, please pick someone who is not joined at the hip with you and in your causes. Please get a few other voices of what we need in a city manager. And yes, we can write in our letters ad infinitum that you ignore, don't even read, and certainly don't listen to or include. So I would ask you to either scrap this subcommittee or pick another person to be joined at the hip with. Please. Thank you.

I'm not in complete agreements with what was said, but I'm still kind of agree that we need to have somebody local. And I don't know what your guys' plans are for who you're going to pick as the next city manager interim to be able to fill in the spot while Matt moves over to Marina. and i think that uh if we could have somebody local who knows the policies and knows politics already that can maybe that has had a history in this that we could find that could fill in for that spot it would be preferred over trying to find somebody outsourced to come in and doesn't know really the city very well and will have an harder issue taking on all the tasking that might be involved in it so um that was just my point and it was just making sure that we're trying to look at locally and trying to source that with somebody who already kind of knows the city so that's it thank you thank you always willing to also always willing to um help too so if you guys want any information or anything or want me to help in and i'd gladly help as well thank you thanks very much appreciate it appreciate the offer is there anyone else online no sir

All right, I'll go ahead and close public comment on item nine h bring back to the council. Anyone? Yeah, go ahead. That's what I'm going.

I guess I can just go over. So the idea here is just having somebody that can be a liaison or the decisions will still be made by the full council. This isn't a matter of a subcommittee making decisions for the council. It's just being able to be a liaison and help speed the process in between meetings.

Yes, except you know we're we're going to bring forward a candidate for interim but bombery and associates is the recruiter we're not the recruiter right so with respect it's like kind of two different things.

Right okay but, but basically the the full Council will have input on things that won't be two people making a decision for the full Council.

yeah it should we should not i don't believe there'll be a turn where we would be making an independent decision without the full council especially on a candidate the candidate's going to be voted on by uh by the whole council is that that's what you're asking

Yeah, I just, I want to make sure we address, and if people are concerned about having a committee of two, I am happy to help or join. So up to council if they want to do that. But yeah, so I just wanted to make it clear that it's not the two people making a decision for council, but it is being a kind of liaison.

We'll be bringing things forward for decisions, though, and we will be developing that. That's what subcommittees do. And anyone else wish to speak? Go ahead, Council Member Rowe.

And I think it's important to note that this is just for the interim city manager. This is not for the city manager moving forward. So just wanted to clear that up in case there was any confusion.

Well, actually it is. We're going to be providing information And any conduit to the recruiter.

Right. But at this point now, we have to get an interim. I mean, that's our first priority, right?

Yes.

So I think that's, you know, the first task at hand. And then we'll, it's going to take a while for the recruiter to, you know, coordinate getting done. you know all the resumes intact my guess is they have 54 waiting um but i don't know of those 54 how many of those would want to come here so i i think this is the right way to do it uh if you feel like you want another person i mean i would certainly support council member mcdonald as she moves

forward your call um but either way i think it's the right thing to do and i would make a motion to approve recommendation one okay um recommendation one do i have a second second uh we have a motion by ralph uh on recommendation one second by uh councilmember moreland and that just to be clear this is the um the subcommittee would be myself and councilmember garfield and let's hear discussion on the motion councilman garfield

only quick discussion is is that I just want to reiterate that The importance to all of us is finding a really good fit for somebody who can hit the ground running and make the best of this city and take the handoff from Matt that serves us all well. We're all in agreement on that and we'll stay in agreement on that. The subcommittee's job is to make this as efficient as possible. by carrying information back and forth and representing a point of view that we know well, which is how this council is going to do things to jointly collectively make important decisions. As we get into working with a recruiter, having a more efficient process helps us make better use of their time. And that will be important. As we keep our colleagues in touch with what we're doing, we'll learn. And learn what people want what people need will hear from folks as to what's important and all that can be incorporated, so I just want to reassure people that we get it, this is important to the success of the city and we're going to try and make it work as well as possible.

Thank you, and I will just offer the comment of if tonight we start with recommendation one, if at any point we want to add an additional person to the committee, which may happen once this recruitment gets going, I could see a need for additional time. And if that's the case, then we'll come back, put the item on calendar, and discuss potential changes to the subcommittee. and i and i'm not against that at all so i just this was just a starting point because the way the timing was and the meeting schedule you know we this had to be done rather quickly and so this is what i came up with for now but i think i'm certainly open to hearing new positions here different different positions so uh that's if any more comments otherwise we'll take a voice vote on this item any other comments okay we'll go ahead and take a voice vote all in favor say aye aye any opposed hearing none passes 502 Thank you very much, everyone. And we will get to work on those items. Now, we are going to the main item for the night, item 13A. Is that correct? OK. All right.

Let's see here.

Anybody? Probably not. Yeah, let's go ahead and take up item 13a. We're going to hear from our city attorney. I think, are you going to give us a brief overview? OK, I'm just going to call the hearing. OK, all right, we're going to take up item 13a. And at this point, I will preside over this hearing. We're going to hold a hearing for a grievance submitted by the Pacific Grove POA, Police Officers Association. And at this time, the way the process will work is the the Police Officers Association will get a grand total of 10 minutes to make their presentation council for Council, Mr. Johnson. I'm not what party would you be? It's city or city council for the city, but not this council. It's a little bit confusing. We'll make a 10-minute presentation as well. We're going to take public comment at that after the presentations are concluded. Then we're going to have the council ask any clarifying questions and then we'll be deliberating in closed session on the item. At this time,

10 minutes for the police officers association presentation um please come to the podium and so we can have you on video and audio and we'll start the clock when you begin good evening and thank you for having me speak to you uh mayor and council members my name is robert rutledge i am the secretary for the pacific grove police officers association um We were asking respectfully that the Council grant the appeal for us reverse the city man managers decision in order that contractual step increases take effect on employees anniversary date exactly negotiated an article 16.3 of our mo you. In regards to the timeliness, the city argues the grievance is untimely because the payroll practice is longstanding and because a earlier grievance was filed by an individual of our department in January. This misunderstanding is both the contract and basic labor laws. So this is a continuing violation. Each pay period in which a step increase is delayed is a new violation. The clock restarts every time wages are shorted. PERP applies this doctrine to compensation disputes that are ongoing. Article 7.6 of our MAU gives the association, not an individual employee, the right to appeal a citywide contractual interpretation to you. The January grievance by that individual was personal. The May grievance is institutional. Nothing in Article 7 bars the association from pursuing its own grievance after the city refused to correct the practice. Accordingly, the appeal is timely and properly before the council. In regarding to the plain language of Article 16.3, it states employees are eligible for a step increase on their anniversary date. The city contends eligible only triggers future processing. That reading strips the phase on their anniversary date of any meaning and converts the sentence into employees are eligible at some later time. Contract interpretation canons require every word to be given effect, and that parties clearly knew how to delay interpretations when they wanted to. In articles specifically 16.1, 16.2, And 9.1 E they wrote effective in the first full pay period of July they purposefully omitted such language from article 16.3 signaling that the operative date is the anniversary date itself. The city predicts extensive manual calculations and compliance nightmares. In reality, the city already processes mid-period changes for promotions, new hires, retirements, unpaid leave, and overtime. Modern payroll software as well, including the city's Tyler Munnis platform, supports proration and retroactive adjustments automatically. neighboring agencies such as Monterey, Seaside and Marina have already successfully implemented anniversary date steps without extraordinary effort. Administrative convenience cannot negate explicit contract language. PERP has repeatedly held that an employer's internal procedures do not excuse noncompliance with a negotiated provision. In regards to the city's alleged pact practices, It relies heavily on asserted citywide custom of paying in the next pay cycle and cites Kern County and Merced County. That reliance fails for three reasons. Those three reasons include the clear language in which PERP teaches that past practice is relevant only when contract is ambiguous. Here in Article 16.3, it is plain. Now, in regards to a practice that becomes binding only if the union had acknowledged and affirmatively acknowledged the association never waived its right. Indeed, we filed a grievance as soon as underpayments became to light. An even longstanding but unlawful practice cannot override statutory obligations that is as cited in Firefighters Union v. City of Vallejo. And in regards to the additional contract language, ironically, it is the city that adds language suggesting article 16.3 should read eligible to be implemented during the next administrative feasible pay period. That sentence is nowhere in the MOU. The association asked only that the negotiated words be enforced as written. then delaying the increase even on one full pay period deprives an officer of 14 days of higher base pay premium differentials overtime manipulators in calpers service credit over a 30-year career that compounds undermining recruitment retention at a department already stretched thin Correcting the practice requires no new money, only that wages already earned on day one of the step be paid from day one. What is being requested is sustain the association's appeal and reverse the city manager's decision. Declare that one eligibility conditions of Article 16.3 are met. The step increase is effective on the anniversary date. You should direct payroll to implement feature step increases accordingly and issue any payback plus applicable differentials and pension adjustments. In conclusion, city council members and mayor, the question is simple. Will the city honor the plain words in negotiated or continue a unilateral practice that short changes the men and women who protect this community? We urge you to enforce Article 16.3 as written and uphold the fundamental practices that a contract is a contract. Thank you for your time and consideration.

Thank you very much. All right, now Mr. Johnson will have 10 minutes for the city's position.

thank you mr mayor members of the city council my name is che johnson i'm here before you on behalf of the city asking the city council to deny the grievance before i go into the merits i just want to start by saying the city appreciates the valued members of the poa we understand how hard their work is and how important their service is to this community and the city's position in denying this grievance is no reflection on the value that we have on these hardworking men and women, and I appreciate the comments of Mr. Rutledge that he just made here today. But the question before the council is very simple. What does the language in the contract say, and how has it been followed for years? The poa is asking the City Council to rewrite the collective bargaining agreement between the city and the poa to require immediate payments mid contract upon wage increases. This is not what the language says. Mr. Rutledge correctly repeated the language when he read it to you today. And the language says that they matter because as Mr. Rutledge correctly pointed out, every word in the contract being interpreted has to be given weight. And here the POA is not giving the weight to the word eligibility. Article 16.3 clearly establishes a system that has been followed by the city for years. This is not a new practice. This is not a unilateral change. There is no dramatic new policy that the city has implemented. To the contrary, the POA acknowledges that this has been the practice of the city for as long as any members of the POA have been here. And I will tell you, this practice is not unique to Pacific Grove. I've had the pleasure and the honor to work with many other public entities in the area, including the county of Monterey, the city of Monterey, the city of Salinas, the city of Sand City. And I work with hundreds of public entities up and down the state of California. And I will tell you, The vast majority of public entities do not make changes mid-pay period for very fundamental reasons. It leads to error. I believe Mr. Rutledge is speaking in all honesty when he approaches the city council, but I think his facts were wrong by a couple of items. He made the statement that the city currently makes mid-pay period changes for promotions for when individuals are retiring. And he gave a couple other examples. council is free to double check with staff, but my understanding is that is not accurate. That is not what the staff currently does. And this is the main reason why, going back to what I said is the common practice that many public entities in the state of California the way you have to make a mid pay period cycle change is to divide up what days are worked within one pay period, what days are worked in another pay period. And then under federal law, under the Fair Labor Standards Act, because police officers are eligible for overtime, finding what the effective overtime rate is for one period and the effective overtime rate for another period. And then you have to average the two together to create an effective total pay period overtime rate. because under Section 7 of the Fair Labor Standards Act, police officers don't get paid overtime in a normal week like civilians do. They have specified pay periods that cross over the one week period so it's extraordinarily complicated is what i'm trying to say it's not a very simple calculation and here's here's the problem when people have to make manual calculations outside of their compute their computerized systems we have errors it's human nature that's why we try and rely on our computer systems so we don't have errors What the PLA is asking would be for numerous manual calculations that could lead to errors and create administrative problems. And while the staff at the City of Pacific Grove are extremely capable, we don't want to create a system which is more susceptible of errors. We want to have a system which is less susceptible to errors. regarding the procedural argument i do think the procedural argument is is solid i don't know if the council needs to rule on it specifically but let me just address the procedural argument um this grievance is untimely for a couple reasons the the memorandum of understanding between the parties makes it very clear there are time frames for for filing a grievance When there is a change, the POA must bring that forward in the grievance process, and then they must appeal it up through the system. A grievance was filed earlier this year by Sergeant Nagamedi. I may be mispronouncing that. I apologize. No disrespect. And that grievance went all the way to the city council on this exact issue. It was denied. no appeal came to the city council. Whether or not it was a POA issue or the president of the POA, Mr. Nagamini, who brought the issue, it was the exact same issue that's before you today. But let's put that aside. Let's say you don't wanna look at that. It's still untimely because no new policy has been implemented by the city. This has been the policy for years. uh mr rutledge brings up the public employment relations board the acronym is perb referred to as perb for short i know it well i used to be an attorney at perb i'm at i argue at perb all the time i'm very familiar with the case law for perb This is not a PIRB case. You are not PIRB. You are the city council. Actually, PIRB doesn't have jurisdiction over a contractual dispute. The reason I suspect the PLA has not filed an act in a PIRB is this would be dismissed because there has been no change to the city council. We respectfully request that the council deny the grievance. And again, we respect and honor the members of the PLA. Thank you.

thank you very much uh this time we're gonna take public comment on the matter so anyone uh wish to comment on this presentation tonight on this item on this uh hearing on appeal hearing on the grievance go ahead and come forward you have three minutes go ahead mayor city council david erickson again um number one it almost feels ridiculous um having the

pay nickel and dime the police officers of the town, especially when they are understaffed, overworked, and take on the burden. And to underpay them as well is just another stab in the side to them. I can only imagine. reading the contract and hearing what they had talked about where it was eligible um on their on their anniversary date um i mean anniversary date would be the date they were hired so that makes sense that they would want their step increase on that day if they were eligible for that step increase otherwise you're shortchanging them the money that they would have had for that the rest of that month and the rest of that time which i mean in in my eyes should be something that have gone right with what he said they're eligible for it they should be receiving it on the date of their on the date of their um when they were hired um it doesn't make sense not to do it otherwise although i do get the we've always done it this way so yes this is the way we've always done it but just because we've always done it this way doesn't mean we're doing it the right way And taking a look at it again, that I think we should be able to look at the officers and say, yeah, we will do the best thing for you and do on our side what seems right, which is on your step, you'd get it on your anniversary date, and we will pay you up to that time forward through that month and not shortchange you It could be 29 days, or it could be three days. But whatever those amount of days are, those officers earned it. I mean, this is their year anniversary of them coming onto the force. This would be their chance of promoting up, or if they have not promoted up, to at least see their pay increase go up with their step for being in the service for that long. Having a military service background, I feel for the job that they're doing, doing it underpaid and understaffed and trying to make it work. But we need to do what's best for the city too and not watching out for the officers we still have and paying them accordingly and doing what we need to do to do what's right. We're just gonna lose them other cities that'll do it. John Potter, And, and we would I know that i've talked with several the officers before we put in a lot of resource and time to making sure they're qualified and trained and and do everything they need to have. John Potter, Just to turn that over to another city, it would be devastating because we are we're not trying to provide the whole state officers that they could be using we're trying to keep those people here and we need to do what's right to them. John Potter, that's my that's my Thank you. Thank you.

Any other commenters? Oh, I see one on. Was there one online or no?

Yes, we do have one online. Okay.

It's kind of interesting. I don't know how many of all of our public celebrates their anniversary on exactly the date or if they kind of celebrate whenever it is possible. for any major event. The city has a really long history of operating this way, and it seems that everyone else has always been on board for this. But maybe we should change the ordinance somewhere after this. But I don't see that the city is liable for this. Yes, we train officers that move then everywhere all over the state. But we do that with planners and city managers and goodness knows who. Retention is a joke in this city. And no amount of money or anniversary dates is going to change that. So this one is like, I will celebrate the anniversaries of different deaths or different whatever in my own way, in my own time, different marriages, whatever. I mean, excuse me, you celebrate birthdays when you have time to get together with the people, when it aligns with your pay schedule. I don't understand what this beef is particularly about. I really don't. Either you wanted to be here and serve in Pacific Grove or you didn't. You wanted to be trained to move on. So if that is the case, well, I guess you're going to do that anyway. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

No further hands, Mayor.

All right. At this time, we're at step four in this procedure. And I'll just clarify, this is an appeal. So we're going to be voting on whether to hold or deny the appeal when we go into closed session to deliberate. So at this time, do any of the council members have questions for the POA or city staff before we go into closed session and deliberate? Councilmember Garfield?

Thank you. Can I ask, please, how long is our pay period?

Two weeks? No, come on up, please. No, come to the mic.

Yeah, sorry to make you walk up all the way. She's turning it off. You're turning it off. Sorry. Karen Hollweg, Okay, so every two weeks Okay, thank you, you appreciate it. Karen Hollweg, And in our city, we have a multi maybe should stay, we have multiple bargaining units. Karen Hollweg, And is the practice of. implementing a step increase made differently in different units? We've heard from the POA, but do the other units have a different policy?

No, no other unit has a different policy. Everyone's paid at the first pay period following their anniversary date.

Is that in their negotiated contract or is that also practice?

It's in the new negotiated contract for MEA, GEA and reps and the department had no compensation of benefits plan.

Okay. But for some reason, the POA does not have that language in its 16.3 doesn't have the same languages as the other units do. Correct. Okay. Thank you. Those are my questions.

Any other? Council Member Rowe.

Mr. Johnson, I have a question. Did you negotiate the last POA agreement?

No, I did not. I did have a negotiation session with the POA, but it was after their contract had been ratified. There was a discussion about a wage comparison and actually a change to the grievance procedure, but I did not negotiate that language.

Okay. And do you have any knowledge or do you know if they have asked for a language change in the last several negotiated agreements?

John Kane- It is my understanding that this issue has never been specifically negotiated by the POA to change the language to reflect the policy, they were asking, which would be to have an automatic or to have it. John Kane- Or the word shall being included no mandatory language it's my understanding in recent history, it has not been requested.

Okay, thank you. all right um yeah we have two we have two more questions counselor mcdonald and another question for for che thank you and since we're well okay one of us is an attorney but since we're not all attorneys um so can you please clarify from a legal standpoint what eligible means correct um and those of you who are not attorneys clearly made better life choices than the other ones of us

So, from the city's perspective, eligible is a trigger. It means from that point forward, the employee is able to receive a step increase. And the reason why that's important is because we cannot predict all members of the POA when their anniversary date will be. So we talk about triggering events, meaning that from that point forward, it can be implemented. The other point that I made in the brief, I didn't bring this up in my oral argument, but the reason why past practice is important is many, and you asked about legal interpretation, there's this whole complicated legal theory called parole evidence. When can you look at language outside of the four corners of the document? And one of the areas, and there's two different types of ambiguities. There's latent ambiguities and apparent ambiguities. And an apparent ambiguity is a word that everyone can agree looking at it, it just not as very clear what it means. But a latent ambiguity is a word we think might be clear, But then when we don't know what it means, when we look at it further, we don't know what it means. Here, the word eligible is being disputed by the parties. So that would be a latent ambiguity. And because we have an ambiguity in the word, legally, The courts, looking at parole evidence, the Public Employment Relations Board, looking at various doctrines that they utilize, will look at the party's past practice to ask, well, what does eligible mean? Well, how have the parties followed what it means for years? And when there is an undisputed practice like there is here, that lends tendency to one interpretation over the other when the interpretations are being argued. Did that answer your question, ma'am?

It did. Thank you so much.

all right one more okay councilman mormon one more question uh two questions two more questions yeah yeah regarding so if i'm trying to understand um i understand what happens if the council goes with i remember our option number two for option number one if they have all the decision for the grievance since it's gone to city council is there the appeal process there's nothing else after is that right

Correct. I mean, I'm not legal counsel for the POA. They may have other legal options available to them, and that's their own choice. But from the grievance procedure that's provided by the city, the city council is final and binding on this dispute.

Thank you.

And I'm actually wondering regarding our city council, the payroll system, I'm trying to understand – Since our system like physically does not do this method, are there other systems that even do this that would be possible? Or is this like this is across the board standard what you have seen? This is out of standard practice because there's not been a need to design it because that's not something cities. I don't know if you have any thoughts about that.

I was looking back to see if our finance director was here. Oh, there he is. He might be better equipped to answer that question.

Yeah, let me elaborate a little bit. So we have, unfortunately, a very dated system. We have what's called central square. It's basically the plus system. I want to correct the statement that they were saying we had Tyler Muniz. We do not have that system. It's central square, basically, that we have their plus system. The accounting system is basically over 25 years old. This is actually why we're going to be looking next year to actually later this year, bring something to council for a recommended replacement of the system. It has a lot of issues in particular with payroll. And one of these issues, Shay was talking about earlier about basically the possibility for errors. There's a huge possibility for errors because in essence, What they're talking about is we require a manual adjustment for every employee in many different areas. And so it would be hugely problematic for us to have to implement something basically during a mid pay period in essence, so.

But have you seen, like, through other payroll examples? Is this even a possibility of option?

Yeah. So I am not a finance director and I'm not a payroll specialist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Sorry. That's a little joke. Okay. So what I can tell you is I work with hundreds of public entities. Even the most sophisticated system. I work with the city of San Luis Obispo. They have Oracle. As we all know, Oracle is a huge name, huge product. If there are any software designers out there who can fix this problem, here's your million-dollar idea. There is no adequate software system for a public entity which takes into account the difference between between a biweekly payroll period that the city described as every two weeks and the fair labor standards, federal law overtime requirements for public safety. For public safety, firefighters and police officers, they could have an overtime period anywhere between 14 days and 28 days. So let me just try and break that down for you. they could earn overtime, not earn overtime until 28 days have passed. That's not their system. Their system is, I believe, 24, but the law allows up to 28 days. And the payroll system is 14 days. There are no payroll systems which reconcile those differences, right, easily and cleanly and well. Your question, is there a payroll system out there that may allow for a mid-payroll adjustment? I am not one, aware of one, that will do so with the issue of public safety 7K FLSA periods. It may exist, but agencies I work with, which, again, work with the most complicated systems out there like Oracle, they don't have a system that automatically does it.

and thank you just to add on to for first reporting it's actually really problematic as well to do because typically we have to report one pay rate or pay period for reporting and to split it for a pay period would be really problematic for us so i just want to add that on as additional all right that's that's good okay we're going to go ahead and um we're number

and we're going to adjourn the closed session to deliberate. And then we will return an open session and take a vote on the record. So I'm not sure how long it's going to take, but at this time we adjourn. Thank you.

Recording stopped.