City Council - Regular Meeting

Just so you know, I don't know if you would like to get a snack. This this beautiful spread has been created by um Denise, Sydney, and Lori. Thank you. And I hope I'm not forgetting anybody. If you'd like to get food now, we can. Or we've had a break partway through. Or you can just when your stomach tells you or your head tells you to go over and eat, go eat. Beautiful. This looks beautiful. So, yep. So, I don't know what you would like to do. Do you want to get some snacks now before we start or Sure. Okay. We're going to grab our snacks and then we will be back to start our meeting.

Hey Teresa, are we ready? All right. Again, welcome to our work session today. Uh before we get started with the items on the agenda, I want to turn the time over to Bren to introduce our new economic development director. Yes, mayor and council. I'm really excited to introduce Garrett Anderson to you uh today. He just he just started yesterday. Yeah.

Um he he has, you know, family and history from from the county, but we we stole him from the good state of of Colorado. and and uh what's really um I'm really excited that he's going to proactively take ORM's economic development efforts to the next level and without being prompted by Bryce or Ryan and I he already knew and and suggested to to uh help us focus on attracting experiential retail to the city. Um so comes highly educated, highly experienced and and already kind of with a uh predisposition in helping with uh the ORM way and taking that to level. So we we've also made sure that he's humble, hungry, and smart and our our expectations are super high. So with that introduction, what else what else to say, right? Uh yeah, happy to be here. We uh relocating from Colorado just uh just most recently, but originally I'm from the Chicago area. Uh spent most of my career in the Midwest in uh Illinois and Missouri, but um yeah, very happy to be here. Happy to speak into a such a a beautiful community that's uh just really focused around um experiences and families. And that's all all mostly what I've been doing in my career anyway. uh working with uh sports tourism downtowns um a lot of um you know ways that people engage in their communities and happy to be in helping with that too.

I'll also uh you know invite any of you to to reach out to Garrett if there's businesses you want to reach out to or or meet with or want or you want us to have give special attention to or follow on. He has a ton of experience and and that predisposition to be very public facing and business. The main thing I lack right now is a local network. So please uh introduce me to anybody you think is an important network. Running.

Thanks Karen. Good to have you on board. All right. 1.1 I um our first item or listed item on the agenda is a presentation on the public safety revenue dedicated fund. Turn the time over to um Brandon Nelson.

Um hopefully be relatively brief. Um the time has come will to make decisions and uh especially as we start next week into our tenative budget. Uh, one of those decisions that I I need to make sure that um we're all okay with moving forward with is is this item that we touched on I believe uh last week um as well as I know Bren has um discussed this with if hopefully all of you but if not u many of you um and so that is the the idea of separating our public safety fire and police into their out of the general fund and into their own special revenue fund. The more important element of that, to be honest, is the uh dedication of Forum City's current general operations property tax. Uh the county and the state tax commission need me to notify them of that decision to move forward. And that doesn't mean it is set in stone, but they would like to be able to start getting their things on their ends ready. Um, and it would be easier for them if they know that that's going to be coming. Um, so it's not really anything we necessarily need to I just need to make sure in that May 12th meeting there will be an item a resolution where you will um put that uh to pencil to autograph if you will. Um, but this is more just to make sure that when I'm presenting that tenative budget that everybody understands what they're going to see in that uh presentation. Um, and that that is part of that tenative budget. Um, are there any questions? Hopefully you, like I said, you all seen this. Um idea

being to move that into uh the public safety into its own fund so we um it's better visible to citizens as to that fund and the operations of our public safety um folks then associated revenues that go with that and part of that dedicating the property tax to that purpose. There any questions about that? Can you just kind of in a nutshell talk about the genesis of this and if this has been used other places and successes maybe?

Yeah. So there are three I'm aware I'm aware of Midvail has done it and I believe there are two other localities that have already done it. Um this went into as a possibility into law in 2020 2019 I believe it was 2019. Um the and uh not only is it for that purpose, Utah County is also dedicated uh a portion of their property tax to their health and human services department. Um so it's not just public safety. um other entities have is gone through that route dedicating portion of their property tax to whatever specific efforts um they want to tie that to. I will say in talking with the tax commission it it is much easier to move to dedicate to move it into the special revenue fund much more difficult to then go back so everybody understands. So, so what you're saying then is if we decide to do this then and move all of our property tax over into this fund that we need to be very committed to keeping it in that fund which I which I support.

Correct. Just want to make sure you're aware that you have a I'm sorry I'm putting you on the spot here. uh like a a guesstimate the percentage of our budget that would be our entire budget, not just our property tax, but kind of so to give people perspective of what we're talking about. Uh so you can see up here our fiscal 26 budget was 38.1 million out of approximately 72 million of the general fund just short of you know just a little over half. And so the property tax or will be the 8.1

property tax the all well so it's not all 8.1 the 8.1 was all of our property tax which includes the money for our general obligation bonds. So that portion will not the actual amount is about 6.5 million. So that remaining 1.6 Six is related to the general obligation bonds and that will stay within if you will in the debt service fund general fund. Um, you have a question.

Um, Brandon, uh, I I like uh the benefit of being able to signal that our property tax is being dedicated u to the police and fire budgets. That seems like a benefit. It helps provide some transparency to residents about where this this money goes. Uh is there any other benefit besides that? Uh from a financial perspective, it sounds like one of the potential drawbacks is just we lose some flexibility in the future and and if I understand correctly, any future property tax revenue um would be dedicated to this as well. So you still you still retain the possibility of if you wanted to do a profit tax increase specifically related to the general fund to general city operations going here.

You could do that through truth and taxation and and add that. Um they now become in essence two separate taxes. Obviously the one is going to be zero for the time being and the other one would be all all dedicated to uh public safety. That does not eliminate possibility of going through truth taxation and and adding money to the general fund if that ever needed to occur. But any additional property tax revenues that we just would normally acrue would automatically go into the special revenue right now. Yes. Under this proposal, I should say. Yes.

And are there any additional benefits uh to this other than transparency of of about where that money goes to? That's really those are the really the big items is you get to see the total budget of the of the public safety fund and it's right there all by itself and the associated revenues that are linked to public safety. Um so yes and the so those are the positives that you would get to see and your point the dedicated revenue allowing citizens to see all of their property taxes being dedicated to source. I guess I would just like to hear police and fire a bit and see if if they have any concerns or if you're supportive of this supportive um they a stable revenue source is opening um and property tax is stable, sales tax not so much. And so to me that's interesting as I see it

and I look at it as I think the city dumps a ton of money into all of our place. I think that we're employees are your number one asset and they should be and I feel like this carves out public safety not in full but it I think it provides an opportunity for all the other departments be made more whole um because of this dedicated fund. So I think across the board everybody wins by separating this less competition for dollars even though they're the same dollars. I think it could view my perspective as different. So I look at it as a huge win.

If I can just emphasize I know that property tax is typically not a wellbeloved tax um by by the general public. At the same time, to kind of emphasize what Chief Robinson said, if there is a downturn and a devaluation of of properties within the city on any given year, then the property tax rate actually automatically goes up. So the revenue is intended to always be the same from property tax and that's just how it's possessed in Utah. And so, uh, it does provide another benefit is is essentially that sense of of safety or protection or being covered, um, uh, to provide the wages and benefits and equipment for our public safety even in the event of a of a major downturn.

And just to really clarify, right, it's only 20%. You're still going to need our general fund to be successful. um our economic development director we just met do his magic so we can continue to fund you at the level that we have excellence. So well and I think that both BJ and I certainly recognize that but it also doesn't exempt us from an in sales tax that we don't have to tighten our budgets because we have a scented fund and I think that would be an expectation that you would have across the board for all of our departments and so it doesn't isolate us. We still have responsibilities to be fiscally responsible.

Actually, it would be more obvious because it's its own fund and so it'd be much more easily available to not only you but the public to to see. I was just saying thank you for having that point of view. I feel like you guys are both very mindful of this is taxpayer money that funds your departments and to be responsible with it and you are. Thank you for that and doing their best to support you.

We definitely feel that from the mayor council and the rest of the exec staff. This is this is a different process and so speak for both of us when I just say thank you for supporting all of our efforts actively.

Great. So what I'm hearing and even though this is in the work session, we don't we don't make formal decisions, but I'm I'm sensing that uh as we go forward in creating the budget that we go ahead and that this will be part of the budget that be presented to us next week is to create this fund and then to move and do move the monies into it. Okay. So that's how you will see it within that tenative budget and obviously like I said like I said there will be a resolution and that resolution will basically spell that out and I'll be providing that resolution to the state tax commission and the county. Okay. Okay. So next week starts the process

doesn't officially happen until we you know uh actually go through that process of certifying our tax rate. So, and another thing uh Bren wanted me to make sure we mention this is separate discussion from a property tax increase. This can this can happen irregardless of what we may do on that end of the spectrum and it doesn't affect this. No, it's a completely separate item. Just want to make sure we understand really two totally separate elements.

All right. Thank you. All right. The next item on our agenda is our continued discussion on the short-term rental holds. And as Jake as he gets set up, just want to express my appreciation to all of you for conversations that we had last week, I feel like we're we're making progress as far as what we're to see in this ordinance. And I would encourage you in this this is a good this work session is a good opportunity to to have discussion. And so I would just encourage you to if you as you have thoughts and feelings to go ahead and and share those as we try and give guidance to Jake as he's trying as he's working to put together an ordinance for our review. So right I'll turn the next 75 minutes over to you Jake.

Thank you. Thank you mayor. and and hopefully this next uh section will be as productive. I I really do appreciate the the discussions, the conversations we had last week. Um it was very helpful for me to kind of see where there's comfort, where there's work to still be done and where the direction we may be heading. Um so I don't, you know, miscalculate and we end up in Colorado instead of on top of Tibonogus. So, I would hate to be that far off track. Um, I left off on this screen and we had started talking about occupancy and and how to potentially uh deal with um short-term rentals and how to best balance effects in neighborhoods, limiting potential uh party houses, but also providing an economical or an economic viable option for people um if they are going to engage in short-term rentals. So, I actually want to take a step back from that and talk about it not necessarily in practical numerical numbers, but to take a step back and talk about the general principles or policies that might govern the way that we would approach occupancy. And the way I see it is there's there's there's probably more than these four. Uh but these are four that are are typically used or discussed or are or are seen out in actual practice. And the first is that a a municipality sets a numerical cap. that a a municipal governing body says, "We are comfortable setting this as the numerical cap for any short-term rental." And they they they do that

calculation based on their other land use zones, based on practice, based on experience with uh short-term rentals already that have been in operation or what they've seen in neighboring communities. Uh so for example, you you could set a cap and what we've discussed in the past is eight individuals. Um some of the strengths of that is it's really easy to enforce. Um it's easy for a neighborhood political team or a uniformed officer to go out and see how many people are occupying or in that short-term rental at any given time. Um it helps mitigate nuisance issues. if you're if you're setting a cap that's that's lower than what our typ what we would typically see for a party house that helps mitigate some of those concerns. Um, also it helps address some of the public safety concerns that are out there that again if you're having uh over congestion in a home. Uh it may lead to potential parties or fights or other negative effects within the neighborhood that you're having public safety come out and respond to. Now, there are weaknesses with that. Um, what we've discussed in the past is one size fits none. If you if you set that cap, um, that may not necessarily fit a two-bedroom apartment. Likewise, it's probably not going to fit a six-bedroom home. And so, by setting that cap, that is one of the weaknesses. Also, it provides really limited flexibility for dealing with multi-generational family travel. Um, and also it produces some economic inefficiencies if if you have a short-term rental and part of that short-term rental then sits vacant because of the occupancy they can't actually rent it to its full potential. So that that would be one potential route. Another potential route is you take an occupancy cap and you set that

as kind of the global or the maximum cap and then you set an internal uh cap based on bedroom calculation and I'm going to do this the third one at the same time or in in lie of that bedroom cap you do it based on square footage of the home. Um, some of the benefits of that is it's scalable based on on the nature of the short-term rental. Um, it may provide better precision for, you know, what should occupancy be for this specific short-term rental. Um, it also helps deal deal with density. And when we talk about square footage, there is the benefit of that may limit the temptation for a short-term rental operator to cram more beds in a bedroom. Uh because you're going off of a a a very neutral square footage number that can't be altered or uh you know uh manipulated in a way that you could cram or or put more people in than than necessary. Uh but again they also have their own weaknesses. Um requires more administrative oversight at the time of the application. Uh also provides their own levels of ceiling conflict. Again what if you have a larger home because you have that maximum occupancy cap. The square footage cap, the internal cap may actually exceed what that maximum cap. So you're still putting a ceiling there. So that still creates that conflict. Um and then there's also some verification complexity again that is going to be an is enforcement. Um the fourth option is to do it solely based on square footage and to move away from an idea of a maximum occupancy cap and to go solely based on a square footage.

um that you would determine whatever ratio the council feels comfortable one per x square ft and from there um you would set that that ratio sets the occupancy cap. Um again there are some benefits there is again it's objective it's it's easier to determine objectively. Um, we could also use county land records to help support corroborate what that square footage, but also know that sometimes those land records are inaccurate. And so there may be some discrepancies between what a short-term rental operator is reporting is the square footage versus what we see on the land record itself. Um however the weaknesses here is it does allow also for potential mega groups and the larger the home the larger the number of people. Um you know you could argue the slippery slope um that it does allow for potential larger groups which would likely lead to potential party homes

or event centers. Yes. Not everything's a party. Sometimes it's just an event.

Yep. Um, and then we would also need to if if the council were wanting to go this direction, we would absolutely need to review our other occupancy limits elsewhere within our code. Uh, we'd need to make sure that we are um consistent through our code in other land uses. So, what does that Oh, Steve, so the the options you're talking about here, I I assume are for the number of unrelated people who can occupy an SDR. Are we is there an underlying assumption that a family a group of unrelated or of related people um could also occupy? So if you had a family 15 that would be So you're kind of jumping three slides ahead.

Sorry.

Um right now what I'm just talking about is occupancy in general. Not even singling out single family or unrelated. I'm just talking about different ways you can calculate occupancy. So, how that would look is if we aren't even talking about single family, if we're just talking about people, what does this actually look like in practice? So, if you were to take a two-bedroom uh 800 foot condo, what does that look like under each of these different scenarios? Same goes for 4bedroom house that's 2400 ft² or a sixbedroom estate that's 6,000 square ft. So that kind of gives you numbers that are actual practical numbers to see what that would look like. Now we have also talked about single family being something that we could overlap or overlayer. And so if we were to adopt a single family um and and in in many instances exempt them from an occupancy limit uh unless we're doing an internal home occupancy limit. Um this is what it would look like if we did that overlap. So for example, if we were to say a global max of eight. Oh, I I'm using the wrong computer. Oh, there. Oh, can you go? Yeah. Can you go back to that one? Can we look at that one for just a minute? Because you talked about it

and we've been looking forward to it. It's lost. Yeah. How would you define global max?

So, global max again would be saying we set a standard across the city that for short-term rentals, the maximum occupancy you could have would be X. And in this scenario, I've picked the number eight. Internal would be looking at the actual STR itself. What is the capacity of that short-term rental either using short uh square footage or bedroom capacity and how that would interplay. So, if you notice, um, for example, on that on the third column over, if you were to choose a square footage, you still run into a ceiling where if you were to say one per 400, that really allows 15 people there. But if you're putting a a global max saying the maximum we're going to allow for any short-term rental is eight. Um that's what you're would you you put this artificial ceiling there at 8 even though you have that internal uh occupancy limit that would exceed it. So if you were to then overlap that definition of single family,

this is kind of how that and if you have a single family that is a larger single family and kids you can have a larger capacity as opposed to this sense. This is

too much less families. You're talking about cousins and family types of things or you talking about family. So it's already family as and it's up here. So total person is like himself a related group group of people who are related by blood marriage adoption. Um this also includes two um two guests that uh are there as a family. In that instance, Quinn, um you you could have grandparents, uncles, uh children, grandchildren. That that single family could actually be a quite large group.

So I have seven siblings. We have his community in the neighborhood. We could all of us 7 of us go in a home and follow as a family if that home was large enough. Yes. A large enough parameter is what? Based on number of bedrooms or based on square footage. Again, depending on how you're deciding to move forward with occupancy. So, bedroom or square footage. Correct. And bedroom. You're Did you say I'm trying to remember if you told me this here um two beds or two people per room? Where did I see that slide? So, again, under under this two people per bedroom.

Okay. And and Jake, in theory, you could also have a mixed rule which says three people per room or square footage requirements, whichever is higher or lower, right? Correct. The question then becomes how complex you want to make this for enforcement. And yeah, we could we could have multiple layers, but the more complexity you add,

the harder it's going to be for both our licensing official to determine occupancy at the time we issue the license. I think it would be beneficial at the time the license is issued is to set that occupancy limit. So what I'd want to see happen is applicant comes in and says, "So if we've decided the bedroom route, my home has six bedrooms. We determine occupancy at that time and issue an occupancy limit on the license itself." Or if we're going under square footage that we have the square footage, we corroborate it with the uh Utah County Land Records. We have an agreement as to how many square footage qualifies and then we determine occupancy at that time and print it on the license.

And then we could see how the operators advertise for rent space, right? Yes. Because so how do you how do you prevent people from counting couches as places to sleep? Like if you have a home that has bedrooms, but it has a whole bunch of gathering areas, large rooms, what how would you recommend you then stop 20 people from being there?

So if you were to op if you were to go for the option of bedroom, what we'd want to do is define bedroom and occupancy per bedroom. As other cities have done this, you look at about 100 square ft. You say a room that's 100 ft or larger, uh, that is a bedroom, you could put two people in that. Anything between 70 and 99 ft could house one person in that bedroom. Anything below 70 square ft, um, I would not want us to define that as a bedroom because what you end up starting doing is having homes segregated into small zones to add occupancy. closet under the stairs.

You end up with Harry Potter STRs. Well, would you ever add window? Like to be a bedroom, you got to have a window legally. Um, fire code. You do. Fire code. You do? Yeah. And a closet. So, and a closet. I mean, do we have a definition of bedroom? I guess maybe that most most um building code. You say we do. The building code. Yes. Most other short-term rental regulations, when we're talking about occupancy, they aren't throwing in uh an egress window. They're not throwing in a closet requirement. They're talking square footage. But if we say bedroom, then we know we've covered the safety issue of

Oh, yeah. I mean, it would we would definitely have to we would want to address that. The problem is we don't police fire code in residential residential facilities. If they're getting the license, we could go inspect 100%.

Okay. Any other questions so far on this? Okay. Um, as we look at what makes up a single family, again, you could really end up with a large group as long as the as long as you have somebody who is related by a qualifying relationship under our code um that covers all of the occupants, that would count as a single family. So, if you had a great grandparent there, you had all of the posterity off of the great grand uh parent, all of that would qualify as a single family. Um, as you get to the cousin level though, if you only had two cousins coming to rent an STR, cousin and cousin, and nobody higher up that then relates, those cousins would not qualify as a single family. That is where our our code delineates and boxs out single family. But as long as you have two brothers or a brother and a sister and then their posterity, then everybody below that still counts as a single family. Does that make clear sense how that works? Um, so again, you still end up with larger groups under the single family definition above and beyond what we would count for the unrelated individuals. I want to come back and to this and and I would like to hear the council's thoughts about the different perspective approaches how to address occupancy within short-term rentals.

Can I ask what your recommendation is legally? what is what is easiest to maintain and justify and enforce and all of that.

So there a couple different ways to to address that question. I I think one is from the area of enforcement um as you have an officer responding or a neighborhood improvement team member responding, the clearer that we can make the ordinance, the easier it is for enforcement. the minute we get into super uh to multiple tiers of complexity, the harder it is. So, um going back to, you know, what I was taught early on in high school is keep it simple stupid. Um the simpler we can keep something, the clearer that we can have the expectations to the public.

It's difficult for us to determine your relationship is a family. Get that app out that we What is it? Ancestry. Family tree. So think about that. You're the officer coming to I'm saying me and Mark cousins are related. Sure. Prove otherwise. And so that's the difficulty. So you're kind of saying eight a number. I'm just I'm I'm letting you know that it's difficult to enforce that. Um please

on the license I I've had experience enforcing family occupancy in in different relationships quite a bit in a previous city. You can come up with a definition and on the license it can go through a process and be determined and that's fairly straightforward because we can go do an inspection. We can see count the number of bedrooms if you want to do it by bedroom. we can do that. If you want to do a a global limit, we can do that. Um, the simpler it is, the easier it is for us to do it. That's that's this much. The big rest of the iceberg is the actual enforcement. A call comes in in a complaint and when an officer goes to the door, they will have no idea how many people are there. They can ask. And believe it or not, people will say if the limit is eight, it will be eight. That will be the answer you'll get. And because they will know that's the difficult uh part of occupancy. If you're hoping to enforce short-term rentals based on occupancy, it is an extremely difficult if not impossible job for the police to do. Can we do you you've you've separated out occupancies on square footage. Can we do an a bedroom calculation only? Is that I don't see that option up there. Not

we could do a bedroom. So just say if you've got six bedrooms, 12 people that you could take that approach as well. Just it's remove the cap and just say how many are in the how many bedrooms are there in the house and then we know that there are this many. But does that open us up for you could potentially end up with getting, you know, bedrooms more bedrooms built within a home to to add occupancy. Well, but if it's on the license, I mean, if that's predetermined and inspected, this is how many bedrooms and there's two per bedroom. This is your max. Yes.

And everybody understands that owner citybody knows that's your max. Does that open us up for group homes using that same definition to be able to fight for them to have more occupancy?

Yeah. So, as as I indicate here, both on the the bedroom side as well as the square footage, the minute we start increasing occupancy above what we've allowed for other uses within our code, that opens us up to are we treating vacationers better than we would be treating other members of the public that have a right to residents in our residential zones. That could be group homes, that could be sober living facilities, uh that could be just generally our unrelated individuals that we limit to three. Um there's a whole spectrum there that we're going to have to consider. So this would impact on a long-term rental as well.

Possibly.

It could. We would have to decide if we say well you know what it's I'm not a lawyer but we we we discussed this yesterday Jake and I did saying that we the argument that well I'm only renting out 10 days a month or 15 days a month so the impact is less than if the long-term rental they're way it's that's what we get to decide as a council is what what level of risk do we take and can I can I just can I just add something that we talked about yesterday too. Uh yesterday I met with uh two different fam u several different people about about short-term rentals and one of the discussions we had was about occupancy and I you're probably going to go back to the option three at some point which which is the occupancy solely um square footage u but but we would I think something if if that's something that that we're interested in doing in order to avoid the concern that the legal staff has as far as sober living and short-term rentals. We as a council, if that if that's an option we want to look at, for example, the option three, one person per 800 square ft for specific estates, we have to be comfortable with that applying to other uses as well. So if somebody were to have a sober a 6,000 square foot sober living facility, we would and we said our our standard was one per 800 square f feet. It would be we would have to apply that same we could apply whether they would do it or not. That would be up to them as far as what their state requirements are and what best practices are for their for the treatment and things like that. But as we discussed, the really the only way to do option three, I think to do safely if if that's something we want to do is we're going to need to go

in with the understanding that we can't single out short-term rentals. We am I am I explaining that correctly? Yeah. So, what I would how I would boil that down is if you are you are interested in allowing vacationers to occupy residential homes at a higher occupancy rate, as a council, you've got to be willing to review and consider increasing your occupancy rate for other uses in residential zones.

I I think there's one caveat to that that may be that we probably would enforce STRs differently. They're subject to regular inspections. are say subject to specific, you know, parking and other requirements that maybe the long-term rentals aren't, which may make them an exception. No, that Well, that's not true because we we uh sober living homes are subject to inspection regularly. I mean, that's the concern. And it's not long-term rentals that we're

necessarily the restrictions that we would place on the use as far as um you know inspections or occupy comes down to are you allowing an occupancy rate that is different than another occupancy rate and does that create any sort of facial challenge to our ordinance? Does that create any other sort of um discriminatory treatment to any group of individuals? I thought it was if if we classified these as transient facilities versus residential or long-term occupancy, which an a group home or any other category might be that I feel like those are different rules. Is that not the case?

Again, under the FHA and the ADA, they're not going to look at it that way. They

will look at it as transient home. But uh this is going back to the question that you posed to us and I really appreciate the way that you have outlined a variety of options here and I appreciate the feedback as well. Uh, I I would like to avoid a one-sizefits-all policy, right? Because I think that our potential properties that that do this vary widely in terms of base and bedrooms and all those things, and I I'd like to recognize uh that they're quite different from each other. Um, I'm also very hesitant to have special carveouts for for people who are related just because of the uh enforcement issues. I just I can see from Gary and that that's just a a nightmare and it's just I don't know how how you would necessarily enforce that. So, um I guess I would be interested in exploring either a two people per bedroom or a square foot model. Um when you had those two different models up there, uh maybe Yeah, right there. So, if it feels weird to me uh on the far right one that we would have a two-bedroom condo of 800 ft that can only have two people, right? If it's a couple, maybe that other bedroom is vacant. That that that seems off uh to me. Um but I also recognize, right, that u you might have a six sixbedroom very large property. When they're eight, it just doesn't make sense. And so in that in that case either uh the multiple

bedrooms or the square footage I think is a much better way of measuring um density uh of occupancy of that property. And I I know that that adds some potential complications to our lives um because of the way that we define occupancy in other types of venues. Um, but being able to have something that feels equitable in terms of the space that's available and the density of occupancy of that space makes sense to me. So, are you saying no eight person cap? Yes.

So, you're not concerned about the sober living? Um I believe that if uh a space is large enough right that people can occupy it um in a in an appropriate space. I'm not worried about who's in there. Tell you what just happened to our neighborhood. Um you have a sober living home. Um it used to be men, now it's women. Had four of them come to a church with us. Introduced to them there. Um, and that's how we knew it was women, not men anymore.

And there was a concern by one of them reached out to um someone in our um that said owner has delivered four more mattresses and he's finishing the basement right now. We have eight people and he's talking about adding four more people. There is one kitchen. There are two bathrooms and they're very small. It was an older home. These, you know, that is that you help us with that. So, we have another one just up the street a little ways that is autism, children with autism. Um, I would hate to see this similar thing happen there because at that situ in that situation, if we have them where they finish the basement, they add more bedrooms, we don't we don't have the eight person cap, that results in a lower standard of care for that type of home, for the for the tenants, a potential for a lower standard of care for the tenants in that one type of home. So, if they had 12 children with um autism and it and they're able to do that because of what we do here with an intent, the good intent to help someone who's trying to short-term rental

more. We're putting other people at risk unintentionally, I believe.

So, that's why I'm I'm I kind of tend to lead with our recommendation from our legal staff. the eight person have so we don't go down that road which will potentially be very harmful to these ladies what's happened to them we had to stop it or to this other home now I don't know of all the homes but I do know of those two foreseeable outcome the one was actually going to happen so he would have been out of maybe that would have been caught if they were putting 12 where they can only have eight. Um but maybe not. And then of course if then we allow this it would have been okay thing for them to do according to

you think the space in that facility is large enough that just putting it on bedrooms they're qualifying that as a bedroom. I mean I know my house a 1980s level house the bedrooms are very very small. has a window, has a closet, and I can barely fit a bed, a bedroom, much less a dresser and everything. So,

so I'm I'm hearing maybe square foot is better. I I don't think we I am not comfortable with going beyond the occupancy because the the walls that it opens up for our long-term rentals, for sober living, for any of these home type situations, we are putting that burden on neighborhoods to bear that burden for a business. It's a hard burden to bear and it's it's not a great You're right. It is a one-size missall problem. But that's the problem we have when we're putting business in a residential zone. It's not going to fit. That's why they there's different zoning. And there was a large home in my I just thought of another one. In my brother's neighborhood that used to live in MPG, a large home was purchased and everyone was excited for a new family and it became a sober living home. And same thing, they ended up finding, they were only supposed to have eight, but they had 12 and sometimes 14 people in the house. And every time the neighbors had to say, "Well, that's a new face." or you know they had to at least that you know I just don't think that's fair to have to put in that situation because we're trying to help a business owner able enterprise in a residential neighborhood succeed.

I I do have some sorry I do have some additional thoughts just in terms of what we're trying to accomplish with this. Um, but I'm willing to save them, Jake. Uh, if you want to still focus on on occupancy limits specifically for now. Is are you on this topic, Jeff?

Yes. So, question. So, I think a bigger concern than short-term rentals is um long-term rentals where we have, uh multiple people living in the same house, right? And I hear this from people constantly. you know, we have this house that's it's a long-term rental and we don't know how many people are there, but there are cars coming and going constantly and and I know that's a a major problem for the NIT folks um and impossible to keep up with. That's aside from short-term rentals. Um, so are you saying that if we change the occupancy or this then those long-term rentals that actually opens up well more people could cram into a home?

It depends. Um, how I would answer that question is if we were to adopt a scaling version for short-term rentals and we have a flat numerical cap for long-term rentals. It does open up some legal arguments to be had as to the validity of our cap on our long-term rentals. That's how I'd answer that question, Jeff. Mhm.

So, I know I know that that's that's always a concern is we have five couples living in this house and there are 10 cars in the driveway and on the street. I mean, there's just there's no parking to the street because of that. That's a continual concern. Nothing to do with short-term rentals. These are people that live there. They're students. They're families. They're uh multiple families. And so, that Thank you for that. um point, but I I yeah, I would have a concern if we're opening that to is a separate issue, right? Parking is a completely separate issue.

So, even with a larger property, if if we allowed them to host more people, we could still put all kinds of parking requirements to keep everybody off the street. That would be the case in your case, too. Yeah. Yeah, I think I I'm just if I can just go back to I'm just saying I'm not comfortable with saying, okay, right now we have this many people in this home, single family home, but now we're we're going to we're going to add a few more layers on top of that. So that I I I'm not saying one way or the other. I'm just saying that's that's a bit of a red flag to me.

Were you saying we go to the three or then three unrelated like we have in a long-term rentals? No. Um I'm just saying to me that's a bigger problem. That's a bigger fish to fry than short-term rentals because I hear about that continually. And I know again that the neighborhood team, it's just something that's impossible for them to keep up with and and so it's just kind of always out there bubbling and brewing that we have these long-term renters and we don't really know kind of the same concerns. We don't know how many there are. We don't know how they're related, if they're related, and and so I just would hate to add to that. I

think that's one of my biggest worries is that as we are trying to make something short-term rentals, we are going to be messing with what is allowed for long-term rentals. We all know that that's a big issue in the city right now. and the enforcement I BJ like shaking his head you know he's got thoughts on this because the enforcement arm that's the most difficult part of this we can make all the rules that we want and it's not going to matter because people are still going to do what people do which is walk right past those rules and then we put it on our amazing officers to try and figure out how to enforce that. The other side of that coin though to me is it seems to me that the short-term rentals play by the rules better than the long-term rentals as far as the

occupied. They're there. They're on top of it where short-term rentals I mean we have a a home in our neighborhood. I mean a long-term rental guy lives in Vegas and he doesn't know what happens there. we have a better idea of what's happening there than he does. Yeah. And that's like

so I feel I feel like the I feel like because of the requirements of Airbnb and VRBO and the fact that you have to if you're going to if you're going to have success, you have to hit a c certain level of professionalism in that in those rentals that I feel like it's it's a little bit of a different animal than a long-term rental where, you know, they're there And I don't even think we should be talking about them. I know and I different here. They're they're to two totally different things

that we would even consider a occupancy right in regard. So I feel like we're getting into the weeds here because the eight the whole topic I think that Jake's trying to say is that 8 count can be problem if we exceed the 8 count that can be problematic from a federal uh litigation standard. And and my and and yes, we did go into the we for a minute, but my point was that was my question is where does this take?

No, I understand what your what your question is going to impact the other things. We're not we're not talking about long-term rental. How what's the relationship of the impact? I know Jen Jen had a comment. Then I have a question. Well, I guess just to tag along what Jeff and Quinn were talking about, um, just the way that we regulate STRs is a lot different than how we would regulate a long-term rental. So, you know, you with an STR, you'd have inspections and parking minimums and work maximums and permits and so local contact and all of those things. And we could suspend the license, you know, where we couldn't really do that with long-term. So, like I think Len was saying also, they're just different animals that maybe don't bear comparing. Um, but to that point, I also agree with Quinn. think that the onesize misfits-all. I I I think that's a great fit either. I think that based on occupancy, you know, like in your example here, a 24 square foot 100 foot home have the same occupancy, a 6,000 foot home essentially, you know, like I don't love that. So I I would tend to side with let's go with a simple easy two perb move on see like just my input.

So is all of this as I think back on your first side, this is about non-owner occupied, right? Or can this be applied to owner occupied? It could also be applied to owner occupied. Okay, thank you. So, whatever we apply to short-term rentals though have to realize that it will be applied to longterm, not necessarily long term, but other legally it could be challenged in that way does open up some arguments there. Whether those arguments are going to be valid or not, I don't know. Um, that makes me uncomfortable. It does open potential lines for argument. Sometimes you get up your six 7,000 foot homes and you don't necessarily have more bedrooms,

right?

Your homes with your really nicer amenities. So, so your square foot, what I'm trying to say there is I don't think square footage is a good measure. I think that misfits all. I think you've got to look at bedrooms. Then we we are considering the safety that that we're chief was talking about. Um, so here's the balance. Bedrooms for me, bedrooms and and the eight max. I'm very concerned about the sober living issue because I've seen it in my area and I guess maybe I live different place than you guys do, but it's in my area and I've seen it. So I think we need to be respectful of people who live in those kinds of areas and recognize that it's be difficult to maintain a certain standard of a neighborhood if we get to that that um

Chris if I could impose and maybe ask what your thoughts are. Yeah, I think probably the bedroom uh would be more of my limited per bedroom, whatever. Say more than eight, whatever that limit is. I I'm that would be my my enforcement would be bedroom. I'm going to have to find out about whatever's larger than also there. I would also think that there would need to be some maximum whatever that is some maximum occupancy limit. Is that what I'm understanding?

Maximum occupant limit but also number of bedrooms how up to whatever the maximum would be. Um that's where I'm leaning.

I the concerns that I have is um there's two sides to it. You have a family of 30 that's coming in for a family reunion. They're all related. that's a grandma and all of her all their grandkids and um the issue with like group homes or sober living they're living there for longer than 3 to 5 days. So can you set uh you can be there for up to 30 people for that are all family related up to three days more than that the maximum is whatever that so that's just my thinking outside the box but just saying I I have empathy towards the family wanting to go do a family reunion I also have empathy for u because I have that same group home experience um the maximum was eight and I went to the city council meeting 15 years ago when we had that issue.

Um, again, if I could just maybe just so I I have a clear understanding where everybody is. If I could have everybody just again reate what their thoughts and where they may feel comfortable with it. If I could start with you. So, I'm I right now I feel comfortable with the two per room.

Um, with any any limitation or no limitation? limitation and I and I don't have I guess so a larger home that has four bedrooms and I appreciate Len what Len saying because some some of those homes have a theater room and they have a you know they have lots of other amenities and things but um I like I think I feel comfortable with two and then a a maximum Quint,

the choices we've looked at today, I think uh the square footage one resonates most with me. I think that's the most customizable to the property. Um I might also be open to uh two per bedroom. Um not comfortable with a limit of a because I I I just think that that uh doesn't fit a lot of our larger properties. I ask a question about I mean that and I'm not I'm just this is a legitimate question. How many groups of eight people more than eight people together to stay together um in a facility? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that and I don't know that there is an answer to that. But I did I think it's a

I've been part of family reunions where we've rented an air but family reunions are different, right? I I'm not a fan of discriminating between family and non-family the enforcement issue. So I I think that's just really hard to do. So I Well, that's a good point. I I I I've stayed in a I mean the best family reunions I've ever been to were in an Airbnb that hosted 30 people. I mean it was it was magical. So all right. Was that for a family? Was that Was that a family reunion? Family gathering?

Family reunion. And that is again why we've we've we have talked about the overlapping of of having the single family as an option which would increase that occupancy or a single family provision. But yes, does it create enforcement issues? It does. Um and then when you said something of the options you've looked at today, is there something else that's out there that you're thinking that might be a better solution u specifically on occupancy or picture? Well, I I think if if I was to design one right now, I would say um uh that two people per bedroom, right? Um up to four up to four bedrooms or something like that. And then uh if the property is is a much larger property, then you could have a square footage thing that kicks in or additional bedroom thing that kicks in. I would be comfortable with that. Um, one thing to to understand again is and I um I'll let everybody speak and then I I I want to clarify something. Janet,

um, I would support either the options Quinn suggested. I would also support two per bedroom. And I think an important thing to point out here too is it would be limited by parking capacity. So you have, you know, two per bedroom and then whatever the max parking capacity is, which will be a limiting factor. Great. And that's my parking would be definitely have to be the back. We might not have enough parking to have two per bedroom. Yes, that's right. And I have the roads, but you don't have the park. But then you're not going to have like 30 people when you only have two spots. So I think that's just an a bus. I'm not comfortable with any ordinance that spills parking into the street.

That's a question right there. Chris just said unless they're bringing a bus and we saw a bus at the BYU I have a picture on my phone of the bus at the BYU house of the volleyball team. Well, I say that's just not a a oneoff event either. We've seen that in other properties. One at the Aspen house, too. There's house. Yeah. The goat house names for them.

Len, is there anything um that you want to add beyond your bedrooms? The bedrooms in a max eight. Um, yeah. So, documented bedrooms, legal safety bedrooms, you know, um, square footage. I like that idea where we are defining what a bedroom is, that it has a window. um

that yeah I just can't get past the eight because I've seen that and that just you know we do it and we have zero control then are subject to federal standards I hope everybody understands that then are subject to federal standards that happened in my brother's neighborhood I mean you know it's going to be um and I mean I know when we've had the one home my second year on the council Jeff I here there where they had the autism home over on Center Street, Center Street, and it was totally legal. Everything was great and no more than eight and the emails we got and the push back we got and had zero control over that as a federal standards. Um, but the neighbors were very concerned have um a neighbor have a commercial enterprise in their neighborhood. So I I I would love to be compassionate here. I would love to be, you know, I would love to have provide um family union spots for families in Oram, but I have to really go with protecting our neighborhoods, protecting our residents who bought homes in areas, anticipating residential use, and um I don't know, this is a new thing, right? When I grew up, we rented a hotel room and we slept in sleeping bags on the floor. Seven kids,

not rich. We were very poor family. So, we made it work, you know, and it was fun. And when I traveled with friends before we had kids, we would each get a hotel room. We would go in somebody's room and play cards. And then when it was time to go to sleep, we would go to our hotel rooms. It worked great. You know, when I went on family reunions, that's

stay with with family members. um their homes or stay in hotels, you know, it's worked for years and years and years. This is a new thing. I I just feel like I just have such while I really appreciate that experience and that opportunity, I don't see a need to impose upon neighborhoods and the privacy and sanctity of people who that's their biggest investment in their life is their home and the connections that they are making with their neighbors are very very important. So that's kind of where I am. I I'm a bad person here and I'm sounding like I am because I know I got these people sitting behind me, right? And I get it. But I just have to say this is what I'm I'm I'm struggling with, but I have to come down on principle and safety and neighborhood protections and residents and, you know, legal legal exposure, all of that.

Crystal, I'm more on the numerical cap. unless the courts change incidents on the fair housing type things that that's a can of warns I that I'm not willing to open up in our city. Um mayor oh you just let I'm here making notes. Uh, I have a couple questions before I and you might not know the answer before I I say what I'm at right now. Where did the number eight come from?

So number eight, and I don't have all of the the history here. Steve um probably worked on that original sober living facility ordinance um long before I graduated from law school. Um but not to put you on the spot. Do you know what? You know what's horrible is I was at Ten Council at the time and I'm like, Steve, why did we But I I believe and again, correct me where I'm wrong, Steve. I believe I can remember that long.

I can't I just admitted I can't remember that long ago. where I believe is there was there was conversations, there were studies, there were concerns about what the therapeutic level, where be benefits and ORM decided that eight was going to be that magic number based on therapeutic value of a group home and a sober living facility. That's where that number came from. Steve, if

one other thing I'd add to to that is uh some of the thought not just in ORM but throughout the country dealing with we're talking about residential group homes. So, group homes that are in residential neighborhoods, typically in single family homes. We're not talking about group homes that are in, you know, we have some commercial, more commercial like institutional type facilities. And uh as Jake mentioned, eight is a standard that's been therapeutically effective, financially viable, but it's also one that's been commonly uh determined that a number that fits into a residential neighborhood without changing the character of the neighborhood. There's there's been a concern. There is a historical because

when you start getting larger and larger numbers of residents in a group home, you also have more staff members. You also have more services being provided. It starts to look more less like a residential facility and more like an institutional facility. So that's where that eight number kind of for the eight for group homes kind of comes from. Good job. Okay. Thank you. Even though you're that sold. Not bad. Not bad. And so so does this this is a kind of a correlary question. Do do the state regulations for group homes and sober living facilities. Do they have a square footage requirement?

I'm wondering I believe the state does have requirements for group homes. Uh square footage requirements. I don't remember what those are. They're fairly I think they're fairly lenient to be honest with you. Okay. They're like 80 Yeah, 80 square feet. 80 square feet. pretty lenient. So, it's Okay. Okay. Well, all right. So, I like the bedrooms owner occupied only. That's something that I didn't I think that I I don't but that was part of the discussion. But I occupancy, but you're bringing up the previous, but thank you for help.

That's that's I don't I don't envision this being something in a non-owner occupied um situation. I'm struggling. I I might be able to go feel like we could raise the cap a tiny bit, a couple maybe, but again, I don't I don't know. I'm a little distant here that the it's 80. But I I do I do like the bedroom. So, mayor, if I can clarify that the number that the state that's just for the purposes of their licensing, that's not something that we have to follow.

Oh, I know. I would what I was what I was thinking was what if sober living homes required, you know, a higher number of square feet that we could that would make it to where I'm not going to say it, but it would change probably change the situation. So, uh, that's I'm struggling with the some of the silver living and the the group homes. I have I have no I I want to have some flexibility because I do believe that one size miss all, but I'm I'm struggling with how to how to deal with the universable universal applicability of that. So Jake, maybe one clarification. We're talking about short-term rentals in residentially zoned areas, right? This would not preclude the council from a commercial zone. uh basically a facility that that had different occupancy levels that that did more like uh hospitality but had maybe a residential feel in the design and look right now what we're talking about solely is residential zones. If if in a future um project you wanted to look at allowing them in a commercial zone or creating a hospitality zone uh where we'd have different standards, we could absolutely have that conversation in a and and put standards that are different and separate and distinct from those that would be occurring in a residential zone. Um, something else I want to also clarify is, you know, as we talk about bedrooms, um, I do want to just make sure the council is going into this with

eyes wide open is if you had a, you know, a 6,000 foot home and you had a large basement and that basement was a a wider open space, you may have applicants coming in to then refurbish or um, change the footprint within the home to add bedrooms to increase that occupancy. I just want to make sure that you're going into with a bedroom calculation understanding that that may is used to increase occupancy with that in that internal structure of the home. Um, next I'm running out of time unfortunately.

Clarify. I'm not I don't want to do the bedrooms. I'm eight only. Um the next thing I want to speak about is is parking and and I understand again that this is one of those areas where there may not be a lot of uh consensus but we may be close. The really is one I think the one where there is consensus from the group is we would require that tenants of short-term rentals park off street. They are not using on street spots to park and to facilitate the rental, the short-term rental. The next area I'd like to talk about though is as we as we have them submit a parking plan, what would count as potential parking spots, tandem parking or or not? Is that is that something that the council would want to restrict? And by that I mean um as you can see from the example, if you have two spots but they're front and back, does that count as two spots or does that count as one spot or do you want to go based on width? So a spot and a spot and a spot as you go across horizontally. Are there any strong feelings one way or the other?

I love the idea that if they can fit it in the footprint of their driveway and their garage, then it's fine. as long as it's not spilling over onto the sidewalk, whatever, they can jenga however they want to and it's up to the STR owner to man manage that. And if they don't, then they lose a license. Um, but I think that's fair. I lived in a place that had tandem parking. My husband and I had to park behind each other and we did not the street cuz it, you know, honey, come move your car so I can back out is always a problem. And I think that's the nature of short-term rental tenants is they're coming and going a lot of times and they're going to be on the street. And how will you know if that's them? Once again, we're putting the onus on our residents to then report

this question, but not quite on this. How realistic is it to have a parking complaint result in an official strike if we went with a three strike rule or whatever it is and having their license taken away? Like is that a hard thing to accomplish once we have an ordinance or is that

I think again it depends on the circumstances, right? I mean, if we have as what we've as we've talked to different neighbors of STRs that have made complaints, the the refrain always is if there is an active nuisance, please call it in while it's active. While it's active, if it's during the 8 to 5 hours, we can have an NIT team member go out there and and respond, do a knock on the STR, identify what that vehicle is. We could run the license plate. we could understand that that doesn't belong to any of the neighboring homes. Uh you collect a witness statement from the neighbor saying it's not one of our vehicles. Um you could have an off a uniformed officer offsite of hours do the same thing. Um again we would then go through the ALJ. Some of them are really obvious. I mean again when we've had a school bus park in a neighborhood and they parked and they think up that parking that's really obvious. Other times it's going to be a little bit less obvious. So again, I'm going to give you the attorney answer of it really just depends on the circumstances.

Are pictures submitted by neighbors considered evidence. So they doesn't have to be corroborated by an officer coming out there and looking at it, but sure would suffice. Again, it comes down to I mean, part of it is when neighbors say, "I don't want to necessarily be involved." Well, the way to to not have the neighborhood neighbor be involved is we have the NIT officer go out collect the photo, but Aaron Yeah, you've prosecuted these.

Yeah. So, I I often do the enforcement on this and often receive photos from neighbors and photos are helpful, but they're not always sufficient. And what I mean by that is there can be a photo of a vehicle out in front of that STR, but how do we know that that vehicle belongs to the tenant of that STR as opposed to someone who's visiting a neighbor across the street or something, right?

And so photos are good. If there's video showing them, park it and go inside the STR, that's better, right? It depends. So I have So I don't like the tandem. Back to the parking, but if someone had a side and they could do angle to get people to so then you could have someone in the driveway have a problem with that. No, if they're all off street and there's no tandem to cars. Um, but to that point, I will tell you I had I have had residents call me and say they have called our dispatch trying to get someone to go out and dispatch that the police are busy doing other things, important things, right? So, I don't know um if we would then consider just hiring, you know, have code enforcement officers that are available 247 to make sure that we always had someone available to go out and to, you know, get the evidence that we needed to so we can honor the the the you know, the call from the resident

and and I understand the situation you're talking about because I believe that resident also then texted me and at about 11:45 at night I called the watch commander and had them send out a uniform officer. Uh we've done training memos. We've worked through the dispatch on that. So um again we've again we don't necessarily want to use uniformed officers to enforce a civil mechanism. So the idea is again officer would go out collect the initial information and then have referred over to NIT to do the followup. And that's kind of the thing is I really don't want to put our officers they're if they're busy they're busy doing other things. This is so low on the duties of a police officer to protect our citizens, right? Um, so to me the answer is we have to somehow um have code enforcement so you're not getting texts at 11:45 at night but or you know how are we going to handle that when that happens because that is a concern and it's very hard for our residents to

I just need to for you y'all to talk me through how how would this work with owner occupied because in the tan and parking might have a garage and then let's say you have three people living upstairs, the owner and a spouse and kid and then your your um separate STR might be two bedrooms. So they would have to have we would have to have the separate so within this footprint of garage and driveway you would have to have the parking that would be for them right and then in this in a two-bedroom additional two off streetet parking spaces I'm trying to

that's what it sounds like figure figure this out. Yeah, it does create, you know, I mean either I don't necessarily want to say this in a public meeting, but it could be game too by a owner occupied. The owner could then park in the street and the um short-term renter parks in the driveway. Yeah, it can be gamed. The owner can park in the street anyway.

Correct. And that's why we wouldn't control it. We can't control that. So the again the idea is you'd want to put some sort of effective way to try to incentivize and force that parking to come off the street. So is there any strong feelings about tandem parking or not? I guess it would be the question I pose to the group. My my perspective is if it's off the street I'm okay. That's where I'm at as well. if it's garage or driveway if it's off the street or if they create a little parking off to the side. Um I'm okay with that. I'm the same. Don't like tandem.

I don't have strong opinion. Okay. What Chris? Well, I apologize. Same as me. Tandem's okay as long as it's out of the way and it's off the street. So, same off the street.

Oh, my brain. It just it left my brain again. Okay. So, we're talking we talked about last week that we're not talking about room sharing. Correct. Are we talking about a separate STR? Because then because I'm like, okay, if we're going to do share rooms, then we do have to do the number of bedrooms including the primary bedroom of the owner and that because I I did not like it. I I decided it's not for me. But one time I stay stay in Airbnb where I'm just one of the fam and they had, you know, I could go use the kitchen and they had their master bedroom and the sister lived there and they rented out a couple of rooms and it wasn't was my cup of tea, but how would you So we decided last week I thought that that wasn't that that was more of a boarding house kind of situation and that was not something that we were I just want to make sure that I have an understanding that that was what we the conclusion we came too.

So, mayor, that is a natural lead in to the next slide. Um, great segue. Oh, that but your but to your You know what? Our time's about up, but do you mind if we keep going a bit more? Y.

Are you Do you need a break or anything? Don't worry, we'll get to We know we've got Brandon and Tagert and thing. We've Hang in there with us, friends. So, um, mayor, we've we've heard the concerns and and just what you articulated is, do you want to engage in room sharing where, um, an individual just rents a room within the the residential home itself on Airbnb or VRBO? Um, or if you want it more formalized where this ends up being a separate willing basement, a apartment over the garage, um, some type of designated segregated space within the home or the footprint of the home that is rented as though it were an accessory apartment or an ADU, but on a short-term rental basis. If you were to do that more formalized process, what we would recommend is that we have an accessory apartment permit be required as part of doing the short-term rental. What are the thoughts and concerns from the council as to that process? I'm going to start with Chris on this time since I've been picking on Jeff.

No, no concern. I I like the idea that to eliminate the boarding house, I prefer it to have some form of accessory so that they're separate and distinct, and when you come as a short-term rental user, you have a defined space that's yours for that permitted time.

I like having an accessory dwelling as well. Um, one of the concerns I've heard from some people who have those is that am I going to have to every time I I have some people who have accessory dwelling apartment type things um that they sometimes short-term rental and sometimes don't like do I have to re get that every time? And I'm in my head it's you know you have the accessory dwelling one and then if you want a short-term rental it then you'd have to have that permit as well and that's you can come and go with that as needed upon availability or whatever we decide. Is that

correct? There would be a there would be in essence a duplicate layer here. First is you attain you you obtain your ADU or accessory apartment permit and then if you want to if you want a short-term rental you obtain your short-term rental license. And I think we didn't we um Jeff tried to take they only have to get that once. They don't have to get a license every year with an ADU, right? They just have to certify once. You get the ADU. We're not double. Yeah. Once you annually renew renew. So it is.

Yeah. Definitely want a separate place. I think there's more protection for there and um better enforcement, easier enforcement. Um yeah, helps the standard of Airbnb or offer. Yeah, Jen,

I like the idea that there's separate spaces to live in, but whether that's the owners live in the basement and they're in the top floor or vice versa or whatever combination that is, I don't have strong feelings about that. But I do worry about the financial burden it might place on families depending on how it's organized and how you write the legislation. I think it could disproportionately impact middle-income homeowners and also older housing stock and those are the people that often are renting those units out for the financial reasons and so I don't want to penalize them. So depending on how it's constructed and requiring a specific ADU license, I think I'm not totally a fan of but maybe an an ADU permit or some kind of permit that may be a little bit different I would be in favor of. Go ahead. Wait, I understand what you said. So I Yes or no? Right.

If I could reframe that maybe. Um the question I I think Janet, let me make sure I understand your concern is let's say the STR operator wants to live in the ADU. They obtain an ADU permit and they live in the ADU and they wanted to STR out the the main dwelling portion of it. that main dwelling portion isn't necessarily the subject to the ADU permit. And then there's also concern that by adding that duplicative layer of licensing, it may price out middle inome families. Yes. Is that correct? Yes. But wait, how does it price them out? It's the same. There's going to be an additional fee. There's fees for each of those.

You pay ADU fee once and then you pay the STR fee. That's what I was talking about that Chris and I did. It is the only annual one would be the STR. The ADU is not an annual fee. Well, maybe it depends on what kind of you're going to require for the ADU. What kind of standard that needs to be? It's the current law. It's the current law. We changed that. And how many other cities require ADUs required to be ADUs before they can they? Um, I don't have a numerical number on that off the top of my head. I do know that other cities have other licensing that is required before you obtain your STRL like you go through a conditional use permit process or you have other permitting processes um that are subject to being eligible to then get your STRL.

I would be in favor of that. I'm not sure. I'm totally in favor of an ADU requirement. Well, wait. I don't Do we have that? We don't we don't have that. No, we don't even have that. But I I I understand what you're what you're saying. Um so the question again what I understand from Jan is you'd be open to in lie of an ADU to adopt a policy where there's a conditional use permit process. Is that correct?

Yes. And for example let's say you have an older home that was built in 1940 and the windows in the basement don't meet current egress standard. So the owner says well I'm going to live in the basement my home I can do that and I'm going to rent out the top floor. So he wouldn't qualify for an ADU's permit ADU whatever license. So I don't want to penalize them because of that. Does that make sense?

So can I just speak to that? And I'm sorry I'm I have experience as I I did insurance claims and I saw those types of homes and I would never want to approve that. Um, I got a call like a couple years ago from someone in Orum that was trying to do an ADU and he was complaining to me, "They're making me cut out my windows because my windows are too small and it's going to cost me $8,000 more to certify my view." And I just said to him, "Did you want the people that you're renting to to possibly die in a fire cuz they couldn't get out the windows?" Cuz I saw that happen. Your chief seen something like that, right?

That's why there's a fire code. That's why there's a fire code. So, I just I I I don't know if that and I'm just saying from my experience to kind of help you hear my experience and maybe that will help you see that it sounds simple, but when you actually see it happen in real life, you understand why we have fire codes. Um, and we don't like them because a lot of times they cost us money, but they do save lives. Okay. Jen, anything else you want to add? And that's fine to still have that that opinion. I'm just I'm just kind of I'm I'm not you know you're fine.

Well, I I totally get what you're saying and I agree with you to to an extent. I think where I get a little bit uh thrown off is well by that logic we would have to then go inspect every home in AR and say well this doesn't qualify. You got to bring your home up to code. So where does that line do that? No, this is only people who want a license.

But I also think it's a little bit different when you're renting out a basement separate from the top because then you can't access that top part to get out so to speak. Does that make and there should I'm guessing they would have a separate entrance and exit and all that but that's where to me it becomes a little bit different is they you've got separation of spaces there where the basement can't necessarily access the the floor as another way to get out if needed. That option's gone. Quinton, if I could get your opinion.

Yeah. Um, I mean, I'm not comfortable with um, rentals where it would be a hostile style thing where you were renting a bed in a room uh, with other people that you don't know. I'm not comfortable with that. I think needs to be a space designated for the renter. If even if it's one one room, um, I would be okay with that. Um, I am I'm worried about overregulation on this and worried about the cost of um of whatever part of the home uh receiving an ADU license. I'm also concerned about controlling which part of the home um is allowed to be rented out. I think again we have a lot of different families in different situations. Um maybe they their kids are gone, they have a large home um and it doesn't make sense for them to just rent out an ADU portion of the home, but maybe it makes sense for them to rent out their the main living space. I would be cautious about overregulation here.

Thank you, Jeff. Um, so I'm thinking of a couple of different people, uh, older seniors that, uh, have mentioned to me that they're, uh, the only way that they're able to stay in their home is because they rent out a room. I don't like that. I don't like the, you know, the the hostile. Hostile sounds hostile. the the that situation. I I think that everyone should have their own space. Um I I don't know. But at the same time, I'm concerned about and I don't know how many people would fit into that category, but people that, you know, this is helping me make my mortgage payment. I'm in my 70s or 80s and I'm renting out of room. You know, it's a single man wants a home. is running out of room to a single another single man who's in town on business. Um, and I I don't like the consequences of him losing his home because he's not able to make that make that income. So, having said that, I think I would prefer to not have the hostile situation. So, I don't know if there's a way that there I I don't know how you get around that. I don't know how you navigate that thread that needle but

so which one I didn't quite understand either. So I would prefer to not have the hostel but at the same time my heart goes out to those who might be in a situation where it's helping them keep their home. He means hostile as a boarding room like the AD. So the ADU the separate is your choices here. Okay.

I agree. I don't like I in this particular s I wouldn't step into their I didn't step into their kitchen. It's like I'll just the stairs down anyway. I don't care which where which part of the owner lives in up or down or half of the house or half of I whatever whatever it is they do. I am comfortable with the accessory apartment permit and this is why because of the safety issues that are involved. I I under I I do want to minimize duplication of of licensing and inspections. And if there are laws, if there rules, I would like to if we're writing the new ordinance, look at that accessory apartment ordinance, which I know you'll do, and do that. What I also do think too is that that creates an apartment in the in a dwelling that is long-term rental ready. What I can see happening is somebody doing short-term rentals for a while and then saying, "I don't really want to do this anymore. I just want to rent it." Yeah. Rent it out. Even though a lot of times we'd hear from people saying the other way that they would prefer to do short-term rentals, but but then that way we're not trying to deal with what would be then at that point an illegal accessory apartment because it wasn't brought up to the standard. I'm concerned and I and I appreciate where you're coming from with that. I've had some as a council member some pretty um tough situations with conditional use permits and personally I would prefer not to have I like to have as few of those in our ordinances as possible and let's not talk about cassitas or guest houses today or next week or next month or next year. Okay,

but that's sort of

um I'm out of time. I want to respect everybody else that is on the agenda today. Um just to preview, I would still like to talk about a couple different areas which is a dormcancy period for short-term rentals. Um high level is this would allow us um and we're not asking it to be consecutive days that it is dormant like in a 30-day window that it'd be dormant for 5 days not consecutively but this way it does um reduce a loophole for somebody to potentially use STRs for student housing or in another way that could be not what we are foreseeing the STR use for um a legacy status uh for individuals that have obtained a rental dwelling license that may be not able to get a license given to other regulations. So please look at that for future and then ultimately um a path forward with how do we bring this through planning commission and let planning commission review that provide a recommendation have the public have a chance to see whatever that final ordinance is and then coming back to council with a an ordinance with any recommendations from the planning commission. So don't know when you'd like me back. Maybe you never want me to come back. You want to expand that?

Command.

I know. Council, a couple of different things I would just want to ask is do you feel we need some more work session time? That's the first piece to talk about some things. I would like to discuss um the the one provision that says that it has to be occupied for of its owner occupied 183 days a year. I would like to see that increase so we don't end up five plus months of the year possibly having two two rentals. But then um if we and then if the process to where the public can have ample opportunity to give feedback on a proposed ordinance. So I know that the process is to go to the planning commission and then to the city council. So I was what what council what do you think about what what do you think would maximize to your to your level of comfort the level of of opportunity for public input on this? So, first of all, works. Do we need another work session? And second, what kind of public input process is it? Do we follow the hearing process or do you want to have like in the hearing, say we're going to talk about occupancy and then take public comment and then we're going to talk about parking and then take public comment or what is it that you would like to see?

Yes. On another work session, another work session. I think we're done going. Yeah. We haven't talked about geo fencing density. Okay. So we want to have you back is very deep. And to your point of public involvement. Yeah. The public I I really like that idea. If we were to put on our agenda, we're going to talk about occupancy. I mean, look at us. We've got all these different ideas, right? So maybe if we and we have some public comment about their experiences, their ideas, their thoughts, um I think we could benefit from that. Okay. So what you're suggesting then is

maybe put but like what you said occupancy. I mean what are the big ones? Occupancy, density, parking. That would be separate from the public from the the the agenda item where we look at the item as a whole. Okay. What do you Jake, we could have a public hearing in the planning commission. Yes. Right. So, I'm I I think that that would be beneficial u to notice that so that planning commission can also have public feedback. Yep. So, city council and planning commission. I like that idea.

So, I want to get some clarity then on what our path forward is. So, I'll come back for a future work session. Uh finish off the discussion with that. Hopefully, I think I've got some good ideas of where council is on different things. I would draft an ordinance. At that point, do you want me to come back and have a public hearing at the council level or do you want me to first go to the planning commission, go through the public hearing at planning commission? I guess that's my question. One of those routes. So I would think procedurally they would come to us first and then we would tweak any ordinance and then go to the planning commission and then come back to us.

Uhhuh. Once the planning commission is heard the final ordinance. So you saying do that in a work session

then go to the planning commission? I'm saying have city council meeting where we agenda items with a public um hearing where they can talk on these hot button issues the ones that are the most impactful residents. Then that helps us refine the ordinance and then go to the planning commission because the planning commission really is not going to they have no for people to go and talk at planning commission. We would have to be there. it planning commission has no legislative authority on this. It's just a formality. So I think if we're going to really hear the public, we need to put set aside time as a council to hear their on specific parts of this because I don't know about you, but I've had a lot of people ask me, "What does the ordinance say? I don't know what to what to ask you for because I don't know." And I'm like, "I don't know yet. We haven't seen it. We're still formulating it.

And Lenn, are you thinking like the council meeting we would do like two topics a night or you think you'd just do them all in one night to separate them by topic? Um, I guess I'd have to see what they were. I don't know, Jake. here.

I mean, the way I would anticipate if if this is the direction you'd like to go is we could come back work session, then I could come back for a council meeting as an agenda item during which you could there's no requirement to do a public hearing with that agenda item, but you could do a public hearing with that agenda item. That draft would be public and available and individuals from the public could speak on whatever issue they have with that draft. that gives council feedback on that draft. Based on that, we could then tweak the ordinance based on that public hearing. Council after closing the public hearing could say on hearing this, we'd like to see X, Y, or Z. And then I could dig it to planning commission and go through the planning commission process. Go through that public hearing and then come back to the council for a final meeting. Is that

just a point of clarification with the intent that everything go to planning commission because some of this there could be an ordinance amendments dealing with licensing or amendments dealing with the zoning code. Not all not necessarily does business licensing issues go to planning commission. So you would want all everything to go to planning commission because it'll just help us. Yes. Formulate fees or you know and that's licensing right? Is that what you're saying? And maybe um our intent would be everything go planning everything. Okay.

Where do you think planning commission will be most helpful to us Gary? Well, certainly on the zoning code, those things have to go to planning commission. Planning commission could be helpful on other things, but would just give you a recommendation. Our code anticipates this anyways that anything the council whether it's traditionally or under state law or city code there's to deal with if you want to give assignments to planning commission to look at but it I think it could be they could be helpful in both areas one they have to the other one they could be very helpful it just more helps me know how to fashion agendas and deal with those issues and present it to planning commission and educate them on what they would be doing. And they'll need a little bit of context. Frankly, I would imagine we'd need a work meeting with planning commission. Uh it's taken how many meetings here to get some I I think we need at least one work meeting to bring planning commission up to speed so that they can understand it and then hold a formal public hearing where people would come in and then they could make recommendations to you. So I don't think it' just be one night a quick thing. If you want meaningful input from the meetings,

at least two meetings. Yes. So Gary, planning commission would respond to pol the overall policy direction that would come from the city. Yes. We would take that or not clear session and

Yeah. And and that's what we would make clear to them is okay, this is what's happened based on what the council did. We have a draft of several ordinances to look at. We would explain to them what they do, kind of the the philosophy behind them so that they can then read them, understand, and be able to really respond to it and then hold a public hearing and get input. And plus, it would give them uh time to once we introduce something to them to think about it. uh because they may be oh gosh I've never thought about this this is difficult to work through and so I think those two means did that answer your question so they would respond to a overall policy direction with assumably some some guard rails and you know that that has something for the that's going to be something formal and drafted uh so they know where to kind of stay within. So the benefit would be they're going to respond to that to suggest or advise potential refinements, but it's they're not going to go in they wouldn't have the expectation to spend another year and a half. And and that would be part of that work session to explain what the council would anticipate a work session to bring them up to speed, think about it, hold a public hearing and make a recommendation that is and not continue it, you know, several times because this is a big important issue and

but this would be after we have another work session. Is that right? Can we get that as soon as we know thus far as soon as possible? It's ready kind of a mode for that.

And and just for those in the room who are visiting us this even this well was not this evening this afternoon and online. We're not trying to we we all love our our attorney friend here. We're not trying to give him extra job security by making this longer. The point is is we want the public to have ample opportunity to give input and to see what we're considering. That is I know as a council as I've talked to each council member public input and opportunity for that is crucial. So that's we're not just trying to prolong it to make anybody's lives more difficult. It's just that we want to make sure that you as a public have the opportunity to weigh in on this. So,

all right. Thank you. We need a break. A brief break. Okay. We'll be meet back here at quarter to five and tagger. Ready to go. Thanks, Jake.

All right. Our next item on the agenda is item 1.3. It's a presentation. Our budget present part of our budget presentation. Our CIP and Tagert Bowen, city engineer is our presenter. So, our capital improvement project. So, thank you for your patience, Tagger, as we we wrestled with the other things for a while. Thanks, Mayor.

Yeah, like like Mayor said, this is the presentation for capital improvement project CIP for fiscal year 27. And we'll we'll go through a list of projects here, many projects, dollar figures, doing some pictures. If you have any questions, feel free to stop me or or ask those and we'll we get to those. write a brief description for each one and move quickly through these so we can get to the the other presentations. This first slide here is just showing all the dollar amounts for those. Um first we have the CIP fund just over 5 million that includes care funding for water 5.2 million water.

So that includes the 3.6 care. Okay. All of that. Okay. Just the part. Okay. Thank you. Sewer 8 and a half million. Storm water 3.6. Then our streets fund 5.3 for just under 8 million.

First project, city center wayfinding. That includes signage. If you've seen out here by the park, got that all concrete sign. When I first saw this, I thought it was like 3 feet tall and then I walked out there to it and realized it's pretty big. Nice sign. Also, wayfinding signs. And then this is a nice sign out there on the corner. Um signs like these just around city center campus is what that item would be. Nelson's Grove Scope improvements would include improvements to got some ponds there, liners for those ponds, some buildings that need maintenance, some other things at Nelson's Grove RC mower 75,000. This is that steep slope down here on Center Street that would be a remote controlled mower. Pretty cool.

Wow. It's making it safer. Tree planting for 150,000. this to be various areas and city- owned properties for trees. Windsor Park, ballfield dirt would be similar to out here at city center. Nice ball field dirt to for Windsor Bonavville Sports Court. We've put this out to bid and that'd be uh replacing the current asphalt basketball court with a post-tension concrete court. Bonfield Park. This one I didn't know what this was. This is Canyon View Park. Not that familiar with this type of project, but dog park and Rainbow Bridge for 85,000. Guess it's kind of like a cemetery or

remains will be there.

Dog color on there or locks. Special thanks to no wise that's passed away and this is a big park. 15,000 for some constructing the softball dugouts at elementary getting run down there. Freshening those up now. Tempogous event center for 40,000. Some maintenance type improvements there at Temponogus Park. Uh the last two here is let's go back park 500,000 pump track and it's a pretty a pretty cool thing over in Cook Park in Pleasant Grove if you've been there and familiar with that that the kids love these pump tracks. They're really popular to be these are just examples and what could go in there and that's a community park. Then uh another project at Spring Water would be right down there by the treatment plant with a RC track and then a pump track option there. The last item on this slide, 925,000 for lakeside playground replacement. Playground's been well used here and definitely needs replacement. So have some concepts here of there's an above ground view of slides and swings and then on the left there ninja warrior type really cool layout concept for lakeside sports park total 2.2 2 million. Another slide with OCIP with those projects. Major corridor beautifification would be major streets like University Parkway, State Street. If businesses want to beautify their

frontage, they could apply for a grant that this money would go to pay for kind of like a carrot to get them to incentivize them to beautify their property and the city could pay a certain percentage of reimbursement to those properties. Um, cemetery master plan projects for 500,000 would include the children's memorial, cremation garden, and memorial trail head. This is just off the Canal Trail on 800 East there between the upper and lower cemetery. It's a concept layout for a memorial garden there with collecting pond. Nice access there from the cemetery and from the could also include a right there. There's some this item for 100,000 the police training facility design services would of the canyon at our gun range. Um, I don't know if this has a pointer on it, but on the left there, see how the slope's been cut into the mount side? They want to expand that back. So, that short range, we could extend that to increase that depth. Or also on this this other side here where that steep slope is, we could expand the parking to a possible retaining wall there. And then the picture on the right shows the rifle range, which is currently not being used. And there's an option there to possibly drop that. And similar to the left where they've cut out of the slope, we could cut that down and create a a safer backdrop for them to shoot. And so that 100,000 would go

to a consultant to help us uh first design service. A public safety parking lot pedestrian C,000. This cost would be just forward the crossing through the parking lot with the the speed tables and safe safer crosswalks, sidewalk improvements in addition to the money we already have for the wall part of downtown phase one for 960,000. Look at that. I don't know, Gary, you have more on this or

Nope. You're familiar with downtown. Okay. Library Garden 125,000. That'd be potentially the north side of the library. The park option there. Fire station 33 remodel would include a possible concept of remodeling the kitchen. some other costs there to restore fire engine one, some fire department equipment, and then the council chambers audio visual for 100,000. So, take that total with the other it comes to the just over 5 million for CIP.

You go back really quick. What was the council chambers audio visual put on there? That's 100,000 to improve some equipment here in the council chambers. What needs Trevor? How much time do you have?

Um, view picture and picture and uh on-site storage for the recordings as well as the ability to stream directly to YouTube without having to have Zoom to Zoom to do that. Um, and I think that 100,000 line include something that's actually already funded through another project for the um to have Zoom. Can we add a TV on the back wall? How much are those?

When you question Yeah. Will it because when you use half the room like we did that for neighborhood commission once and all the t people that were facing the other way had to turn around to see the TV. So you had one more back there if if that's in the budget maybe. Yes. You also have these on carts up in the EOC that can be rolled down and you those one of those down. So we have some wire for it.

Building maintenance. Just one item. Station two there on North Main Street. 50,000 per floor. and got cracking and just replacing the epoxy coating there for

waterline projects. 2 million includes master plan projects. Another couple other maintenance items there for sewer 500,000 for maintenance. master plan 8 million and a half and storm water.7 million for streets. Uh this is our standard uh yearly annual project. That's 115 million. Got our slurry and crack seal with microsurface one half million memorial trail head that would help to supplement the funding for from this the CIP budget for the the memorial trail head there at the cemetery. Then uh there are other similar accounts for the proposed budget for trip hazard miscellaneous street construction and and ADA concrete projects that we do every year. So

one one quick clarification you're showing the budgeted cash amount that would go towards these projects but for example with water sewer storm that would be the cash portion. It would come back to the council if there was financing the master plan.

Yeah, we we went away from uh budgeting the individual elements within that master plan because what we found is making a guess as to which things were gonna happen when. And so rather than just trying to put information in there that ended up being not correct, uh it was uh more conducive just to put here's how much is available towards all those pro any project that's identified within the B and then to your point B um that may not cover the entire cost of a particular project that may require bonding or some other financing element But that would be determined at the time that particular project was going to

Yeah, we would bring if it was financing, we'd bring it back to the council for an official decision.

That was it for CIP. So, any questions? Council, any questions? Tagert. Tagert. Uh, these look like great projects. um appreciate you bringing them to us. Excited uh for those capital improvements. I'm just curious in your deliberations, I know this is a citywide effort, but in the deliberations, what are some of the things that

uh we would like to fund, but we felt like were not um our highest priorities this year that didn't make it on your list that we have an interest in trying to continue to fund either next year or through other sources. the projects. Uh many of these projects come through public works provide that service for them helping them to manage these projects bid them out. So many of the parks, a lot of these were parks projects, you'll you'll notice and so we're working closely with Tyler Hay and so I know they're always trying to improve parks with buildings, uh, playgrounds. You might be more familiar with that to answer that question, Chris. But

I would also say I' I'd highlight, you notice some of those things says it was for design, for example, improving the gun range and then adding maybe some training components. Tiger's talking about with our our parks, we can do some, but there's we can always do more. So, uh, Bryce, you can maybe speak to future plans in in that you see coming down the road in the near future related really probably more big parks.

Yeah, I think what Ty said is exactly right. We sometimes also have to get the design uh impact built out first so then we can go and pursue grants and other funding sources. Um, and so we have to come to y'all with maybe the total price tag and then it does take a year or two or three to get it to the most optimized spot. Um, maybe something like Lakeside, we showed a playground and that feels really like the direction we want to move right now, but there are a number of ongoing uh issues that would have to be resolved first. Sometimes those can change our projects. And so I think point too of we don't want to or Brandon's point of we don't want to show you something and then it does get changed, but that is definitely part of what we do. And so I think a lot of the times relying on our master plans uh for parks and wreck, using those building out a CIP, reading the room on what the financial year is like or what the opportunity uh year is like, you know, maybe for other county funds or state funds, federal funds, and then trying to piece it all together. So the the plan is always what happens first, the master plan. Uh and then we tried to piece those together. Tyler and I and Chris uh work together closely on sort of a five, seven, 10year plan. Um, and we have like some things have a very specific order, but a lot of them have a okay, of these three or four things, one or two of these is going to make sense in the next 18 20 to 24 months. Let's be ready on several and then we can plug them in as we go. And so I think, you know, Lakeside, we had a responsibility for certain amounts of spending so that we could get matching funds. And so that prioritizes a couple of things there. Uh maybe a CDBG grant that comes through through Heather Cox and the strategy and innovation team. all of a sudden we get money there. We need to accelerate something like that. So to that point there's oh we'd love to do all of it now yesterday but a lot of it really is being ready with a broad plan and then trying to fit them in in a way that makes sense for us. If that's the case of of the things that we saw today how many of them do you anticipate we will complete in the next

fiscal complete as in residents are playing on the new thing? Um, what do you think Leninia is going to look like this fall in our construction period? Um, seeing it catching a third.

Yeah. It that might that might feel about right. I if the money comes in, then we work with designers. We take the designs for a playground to the public. We get their feedback and look to see can we get it in in the fall construction period or the spring and then go from there. the the phase 3 bike park at Mount Tibonogus that we're going to celebrate the opening of this summer. I want to say it was fiscal year 25. So two years ago that it got approved went to design work from the construction period that made sense put it in. People will be biking on it this fall.

A lot of what we saw is going to be a three year plus time horizon, but there are a few things in there that we think we'll see in the next year.

I mean the the dugouts would have probably done some of those, if you will, smaller type items. Those are certainly kind of intended to be done in the current within the current fiscal year. Many of the larger dollar items obviously have a longer time horizon. Windsor Park is an example where we had a couple of major projects. While we are disrupting the park and we have large machinery and people can't really use it, can we go ahead and get in the other two things that we might need in the next couple years so we're not constantly ripping up a portion of a park? So, Uh that maybe why we're a little couchy about committing to something. Exactly. Because there is some opportunity cost of just trying to get them all done at the same time or or get something all the way to completion then we can move to another part of of of the city. I mean during the process we we everybody submits through the capital our capital projects and we evaluate those and come back to them when we have their meetings and there's you know some force trading going on right say well we don't have enough money for that well is there something else that you would rather do to get done now and we can put some money away to be able to start the process of saving towards getting that particular thing done. So there's a bit of that that goes on and think of anything off the top of my head, but I knew I know that we do that.

Thanks for having a thorough process. Or another example could be to's point about sources of funding. Uh as you know, it took us a little bit longer to get uh full approval for a federal federal grant related to our fire training facility. And so now that we've got that sort of signed on the dotted line by President Trump, that then allows us to expedite potential uh rebuild of um fighter station one for example. So so to some extent it it boils down to what's the funding source to get these done. Um Chris, you can maybe also speak to Right. So

cemetery master planning too.

Oh, in response to your question about what what's on the horizon that's not identified here, we have about $250 million of work to happen at the warm water reclamation facility. We're going to be um issuing approximately a $70 million bond for the first phase that'll start working the next year. In the next 15 years, we'll do three more $70 million bonds just for that facility. We have about $4 million that we're looking at uh spending on streets right now that are going to be failing in the projected near future. That's pending the tough um adoption, but that's part of our presentation tonight as well. And we have two $5 million builds that'll be under construction in the next two to three years as well. So, those are our big ones on the on the horizon for for public works.

And and you all thought was expensive. Still fire. party. I love my bathroom and my running water and I'll take that over every day. Yes. As much water as you

and I just want to highlight with the the cemetery master plan. We've been looking at cremation niche head and you know the children's memorial for quite some time. We have looked at both our historical revenues there and projected revenues from the use of a cremation garden uh to and that proposed budget there anticipates 500,000 being available every year to to cover those expenses. And then the the trail head portion will be covered by the funding source that comes from um fifth fifth sales tax that was adopted a few years ago. Right. Any other questions? That was a good question. Great. Thank you. Thank presentation. We'll move on to the next item. Item 1.4 is a presentation. It's actually a continuation of our care um allocation deliberations and I'll turn the time over to Brandon Nelson, our finance director. Um and really this this particular component is uh just was asked that we uh come back with to give you an opportunity after having seen uh the exhibit to come back with uh conversation amongst yourselves and deliberation on potentially the items that were as part of that exhibit. Um and so we really just want to get um your discussion about that any of the items on there. All right, before we get started on that, I don't know. Quinn and Jenna, are you both on the care?

Yeah. Would you mind just take and I can't forgive me if I've already asked you to do this and you did it the last week, but refresh my memory. Would you mind explaining just talking about the deliberation process and maybe just give some insights as to the in how the how the care the commission came to the decisions that they did with funding and not funding just yeah I can start if you want great please jump in chat thank you

so um there are a couple of components to this and I'm new to this so I'm I've been learning and asking lots of questions along the way. Uh we do have a care tax advisory commission that's composed of five uh residents. Um they meet primarily to hear presentations for arts grants that are in the small grants category and for several nights. Jeff Jeff was recently on this as well for several nights in March. That commission is in this room uh hearing presentation after presentation of of different groups um and often providing them with partial funding and making uh calculations as to how do we take the value that they provide for their community uh and um

that's right there. match that with the resources that we have available to provide for our small arts grants and they make u collective decisions about uh the number that they want to award those. So if if you go up to the rand and just go up to the the small grants right mid many mid- major grants they ended up with $143,000 uh that were allocated across those grants. I would say that uh the majority of applicants received some money money uh but a small minority received all the money that they wanted. So much of that deliberation is how can we allocate scarce resources to a lot of deserving institutions that that that for me is the first time being part of that that was really insightful and revealing to see how many great things we have in the city and I've had a chance to attend some of the performances from those groups. um since then and I'm glad that we're able to provide them with some funding.

So you did a and I just was with I'm looking at at Jen's there was a rubric. Was this the first year rubric was was done to and so the Okay, so could you Jen or elaborate a little bit on

Yeah, happy to. Um I we discussed it and and probably peppered Brandon and Trevor with more questions than they knew what to do with and they were so patient with us. But um just wanted to see you know how are how are these decisions being made? What are the criteria being made? Are we all on the same page? So uh Trevor helped us create a rubric or so that we could evaluate apples to apples sort of sort of thing. So for example, what is the community need and purpose? Um is their need clearly defined? Is the target population specific and appropriate? Uh how are the funds going to be used? Is it is is are the funds tied to a specific activity? What is that activity? Um are they uh looking for funds other places as well? are we the only source of funding? How successful are they going to be? Those kinds of questions. Um, and our our uh commission did a really good job. They had the rubrics open real time as they were uh presenters were presenting and they could fill in their scores and at the end they could compare uh how they ranked everybody versus everybody else and it was a pretty straightforward process and our commission did an excellent job at being partial but really thoughtful about the process. So, it was really fun, I think, for for us as well, just to see the the amount of good being done in our community through these organizations. And you just were like, I wish we had money for all of you, for all of the things, but I think they made good judicious decisions that will bring the most benefit to ORM.

Council, I don't think you saw the big smile that went on Trevor's face when when the assignment of making a rubric, Trevor, thank you. You did a great job. It wasn't just the rubric. The magic that none of us could believe that Forever pulled off was this.

Uh we all had a spreadsheet. Jen and I were not voting members, but we all had a spreadsheet uh where people could put in the amount of money that they thought that they wanted to give to that organization and then it immediately populated uh the master spreadsheet so we could discuss that and see what everyone thought. Really a very efficient process. So, so the numbers that we see here for these different uh was there a lot of tweaking after was there a lot of discussion after or as you went through it was there a general consensus I I've I've taken part not in the care but in other type and other types of grants I know that there's a usually a point where you start and then you tweak is that

lots of twe lots of tweaking lots of tweaking yeah I think that the rubric scores gave us like a baseline and then then the outliers were ones that there was some significant about and why or why not. So, okay. Particularly when you had a rubric, maybe the score was a 10 and you had somebody else with a 20. And so then you we there would be a lot of discussion about so why did you go with a why did you rank them so low and why did you rank them? So the discuss group why did you rank them so high and then there was a lot of discussion and deliberation on appreciate the appreciate the can I speak for that?

So I have a friend who's on the care commission a recent friend. She hasn't been my friend for very long, but anyway. Um um and I was just curious because I served with Jeff when we were residents on the care commission for six years. Yeah.

Before both of us jumped into this position. And um really fun talking to her and finding out how, you know, these um uh rubrics and things had worked and the the the cohesion of the group and some of the things you've talked about. Very positive very positive feedback. um so much so that I had Trevor send me the you know what you guys did the new forms and stuff and I love all of it. I think it's been really good. There's a couple things that see she suggested that I might suggest too if you don't mind if I take a second are we ready to go on council? Okay. Any questions about how the how this was?

Can I just add one another thing? So this is the the small arts grants but we also have mid major grants right. So Sarah is the big one there. So separately aside from the care commission, Brandon and Jen and I and Trevor and Bryce huddled u and reviewed the Sarah proposal and the Metropolitan Valley proposal as well. Um and we were able to award the Sarah their full award this year even though it was considerably larger than last year. And then uh the wreck proposal, capital improvement, and some of the other um arts arts proposals uh came from from staff uh and we had a chance to discuss those. Bryce had some really innovative ideas this year uh around an honorarium program and uh artist writer and residence program and other

the yellow can we talk about the what is the honorarium and the artist writers and residents and artist sure len did you want to talk about yeah no I can wait I thought this was holding into what you were saying but I can wait and add this at the very end that's comp this is whatever yeah that's fine I don't know. Bryce, do you want to speak to those or Brandon?

If if that's what y'all would like, I'd be happy. We we had submitted several recreation has traditionally all uh not always. Previously, we had submitted the recreation programs again part of the CIP process master plan uh directly to our council liaison. And over the last few years with my dual role in recreation and library, some of these other civic-reated arts ones would bounce back and forth with Pete Wolfley and his work with the arts commission and I. And so that's where we would take a couple of these uh civic related art ones and have our staff write them up. Um so specifically on the civic related one, heart of downtown I think we're all pretty familiar with and there will be a number of art components to it. I don't think Gary there's no shovel ready product projects that we're doing on that. This is so that we have an art baseline budget for when we approach that portion. Uh number two is the library hall city facilities. This will be the second year that we will have done this in it in its entirety. Historically they the a care group would get their grant but they couldn't afford to do their art anywhere. And so we said, what if we can cover those direct costs through a one lump sum and then our staff instead of being the bearers of bad news of, oh, this is actually what it takes to put on a show can then reach out to every group that receives a care grant and say, we can do a free show for you as part of your performance. And so that was our effort to make sure that the art that was being performed and learned was then being delivered to audiences through Library Hall. Um, and so that's what that um facilities rental group is there for. And so this last year uh 20 plus shows at library hall made possible through that library hall uh care grant. Next is the honorarium program and this is a little bit an extension of that. Uh our arts commission, our events commission, our library commission all have need of bringing in artistic groups to perform

to show uh to uh be at farmers market and be the music on the stage. maybe they are part of a program and there is often a fee associated with that. We thought by having this set aside fund um we would be able to have different staff groups tap into those funds to then hire uh care groups or future potential care groups to come in and perform and we could pay a small stipend uh anywhere from $250 to $750 depending on the type of art, the uh number of performances, everything like that. Uh we were really excited about the honorarium program because in many ways if they in fact if a group were to approach us right now today to say we would love to be care we'd have to say great check back in with us in 12 months and that's a bit of a bummer answer. Now we can say don't miss the application deadline next spring also we'd love to get you on this list and we can bring you out and so uh we can get some money to some of these groups earlier and throughout the year without having to wait for a once a year March set of meetings to be able to have some of those funds. And so that's what the honorarium uh will be used for. Um uh performers in the parade, farmers market, uh concert series. Um it it's pretty broad right now and uh both the library events and arts commissions will be involved with soliciting, selecting, choosing who might be able to receive those amounts.

Is concert series um is that the live rock concert? No, that's a that's a separate group with them. That's going to be different then. That will be a standalone event, not part of an existing city event. Okay. Yeah. This would be more like uh on uh is it tomorrow when the farmers market kicks off? There's always art um music being played. Now, we'd be able to say, "Hey, apply." And also, if you're selected, you would be able to receive this amount of an honorarium for performing, the birthday cake and all that other.

All right. Next is the artist and writer and residence. And this idea actually came from the city council retreat. Um, council member Mikum had brought that up. I think council member Lansson, you had mentioned something about a poet laurette. And so the goal here was to say how do we design a program or put parameters to a program that would meet those goals and also give us a little bit of a beta test on something like this. you know, it's it's a really new program and we had a lot of questions as staff and so we went and researched what had been done in other areas, universities, municipalities to say, how would you bring in an artist and write on residence? How would you define the value of the art being in which is such a crude question to like put a monetary value to art? Uh, but that's the job. And so to say, how do we bring in these folks? What kind of programming would they do? How would they interact with our residents? How do we create that? And this was our best attempt as staff to put a number to something like that. Um, in fact, number 47 and 48 originally were put in as a single one, but the career advancement grants for the artist was actually an effort as part of this idea of writers to bring in and have a scholarship for graduating seniors from each of our local high schools that would be a part of this. So, similar to maybe like a Miss Orum structure where rising seniors can receive some funds, but they're tied to this program. And then we have um the professional or um other resident programs that could all be part of the writing. Uh the goal was to put those together. So uh that was the goal with 47 and 48 is grant funds available to bring in artists and writers. I think uh the submittal we did had two separate ones. One was an artist and residence and one was a writer and residence. So the uh artists could be much broader. Um we saw a lot of cities do like a muralist and residence. Um, and their goal is to come in, immerse themselves in the city, learn about us, and then they leave having produced a mural that reflects their time and uh, time spent with us. The the writer in

residence would again be very broad. It could still be poetry or short story or literature or whatever you want. And so the artistic outcomes would be broader to reflect the different styles of writing and go from there. Are there parameters on what those artists or writers how they apply for that? I guess let me back up. My my concern with putting tax money towards that is is this is ORM tax money and it should directly benefit or help ORM residents. And so I would want to see those artists or writers local talent that we are helping to promote local people, not necessarily bring people in. And that's something that we didn't really get a chance to discuss at um the retreat. Um, but especially because this is tax money being spent, that's something that I I just want to make sure that it's forum focused. One of the reasons I think we wanted to test it was we looked at the way some of these grants up above operate and are we creating opportunities for people to participate in art but then perform elsewhere in the valley or are we creating spectator opportunities for art to go and sit in auditorium and receive the art and so when I look at you know going to a show you know you bring in talent and I'm trying to think who was the big finale the commodors was that our

oh yeah summer obviously not from here but the the artistic value is that we as residents get to go and watch and partake of it and so we had that exact same question to say what is the value we're creating is it an opportunity for an or resident to create and produce and go out with their art or is the opportunity for us to receive and then how do we quantify that how do we to your point ensure that there's value here so the model we looked at was the Utah humanities uh through I the Utah state uh department of museum people in culture. They had a program that was very similar to this. So, we wrote a lot of it based off of that. The other thing I would say, council member, is I don't think I I would say our staff wanted to write the structure and skeleton of this. I don't think we want Bryce to be like I choose them. You know, I think that's where we say let's is this the art commission? We we've written a structure out of what this program could look like. How do we engage the art commission or library commission to say let's now build a really specific rubric an application timeline um an amount of u you know we set aside this amount as our budget do we like those numbers do we want to do two people across 30,000 or do you want 30 micro artist and residents and it it would look very different I think that would be really worth exploring in the first year of a program like this if y'all wanted to move forward with it

yeah I agree with Crystal I don't know are you I agree with Crystal. I feel like, you know, one of the thing the care monies, the care tax when I was on the commission and the whole time I've been on the council has been about um ORM residents being in these groups or andor touch points to ORM residents. Um, you know, like the Sierra, the reason the Sierra gets so much money is they, you know, how many people do they touch and how many opportunities to experience the arts that they provide. So, that's why they have that amount of money and do such a fabulous job. So, um, two things with this. I would definitely want it to be Oram writers. I would not want to go outside and bring someone in. I feel like we need to reward if we did this reward local talent. I actually have a friend who has a writer's group. She asked me if they could get a free room here to read every month, right? And but so I'm guessing there are a lot of those that talent. There's a lot of that talent around here that maybe we could give them a spotlight just like the gentleman who did the um the art exhibit. went to that read that um the Honey Bake Ham Guy Mark.

That was amazing. I'd never seen anything like it and that was super fun to see those artists get their rewards. Um so that would that would to me would be a a caveat that would stay within the the the heart and the theme of our care tax, what our residents pass the care tax for. You know, I feel like um I would just if it's we're using taxpayer dollars for this. It is an art form, but we would want to definitely have forum residents getting that thought on that

and I'm going to very respectfully disagree somewhat because I was on the city council when we when we put this together and we had this exact same discussion. We want to have ORM residents. We want to encourage Orm residents in this case to be the writer or the artist. I'm I'm just not comfortable requiring it because I'm somebody, you know, if you want if you want or resident to write, I can write I can write a me limmerick and or or something like that. And I realize we have some amazing talent in our in our community. I'm just I'm just not comfortable even though I realize it's taxpayer money. I I'm viewing it from somebody who who goes and appreciates our like Mr. dattle here. He does not live in Orum. I appreciate his art and I don't know what I I'm sure that didn't come from Ketch, but I'm just saying is that touch point that you talked about. I I get the I get the uh I appreciate the art, but I understand what you're saying, but I just am concerned about requiring that it be there. may be saying that we prefer a preference to this and but I would like to leave it up to the arts council and the library commission or wherever wherever this resides to to help make that with giving them that instruction.

Can I add another perspective to that? So if you have a writer I I'm lived in this world. I was in the publishing world for years. You can you can have a writer that people may or may not know and you might have 10 people that will show up. So your touch point there is 10 people. But you have another writer that comes that everybody knows. That person is able to connect with hundreds of people and help hundreds of people inspired in their writing because of who they are and their experience and what they've, you know, with what they've done with their with their writing. Um, so I I guess I would agree that that that would be a good decision for the arts commission to come up with that. You know, how do we want to go about doing this? And I'm comfortable with both ways. I mean I agree and I I remember also about keeping money in Orum but another perspective to that might be we might be able to expand that net depending on what the goal is. The goal is to inspire more writers. We might be able to do that if we had a person name that comes to my head, Stephen C. He's not around anymore, but if we had and he would charge a lot of money, so that's out of the ballpark, but there are writers that I think that would come that we could pack library hall

like Beth Brower with her resident. We got and so that's Yes, that's my point. I didn't mean to say I don't did I say requirement. I I guess I meant preference to ORM because when it was described at the retreat, it was we get someone not from ORM and to me I was kind of like I'd kind of like to try maybe if we exhaust all of the ORM opportunities. Absolutely.

We could I I'm not to where this um so yeah, that's where I am. But can I add one more little I'm sorry I'm going to kind of be a little disagreeable here. Um, we already have I just rolled off the arts commission and we have still not funded our sidewalk art, uh, crosswalk art and our utility box um, art.

So, I feel like this probably needs to wait until that which has already come before our arts commission, been approved. We've seen approved um, audit designs. I mean, Pete's not here, is he? Um, so those are things that perhap I don't know how they didn't get, you know, maybe we should have discussed this before it actually went on a a budget thing, but um, those have already been approved by our arts commission and should, in my opinion, should be funded first. That's a great question for for Pete. I think not that's not disagreeable. That's just clarification. And I know there was a couple technical issues. We're not allowed to do sidewalks currently per uh Department of Transportation regulations. Chris,

we just had one painted on First North though, so I'm not quite sure. Okay, so that was stuff going on. We can figure out the crosswalk and I I know I know we have funding currently for utility boxes that is set aside. So I I not on the arts commission. I just know that that fund is funded and there ready to go. So, I'm sure somewhere between design and contractor, we're just looking to finalize those ones and and if there's we don't have enough funds, we will use our utility funds. I wanted to get you doing what?

And council member Bill, if I may, if we pass the t if we pass the tough, nice try sneaking that one in.

I I guess I would I would end on I think you and I are really really aligned and I love what our council members and and staff did to build a rubric for selecting. I think having a and again not all art fits into a rubric and I don't want to turn art into a science but is there a way for us to report back what would success look like or failure look like on an artist and residence program or an honorarium program to say we spent this money and we got four people to show up and we got a a note in the forward of a book. It's like was that worth it or not? I'm glad I'm not the one doing this and y'all are the ones doing this, but it would be interesting for us to report back how was what was the impact either participatory or community experience of a particular project. So when we get back here, I can give y'all a lot better info to say do we like it or not or you know

Yeah. Because comparatively $30,000 is a lot of money compared to what these other performing groups are getting, right? So hopefully we will get a lot for that. Um or we can structure it to where we have a lot of touch points. I guess yeah. Can I I think you might have something too. Did you want to go first?

It's short. I I just was going to add my voice to what Jeff said. And I think and having been an artist myself in college, not vocal artists, but um I I love the idea that we can have a master class, bring someone else from the outside in to give a master class to our people so that we can take the things that we learn and broaden and contribute in our own community and throughout the world. I I don't have feelings that it needs to be an orum only person. I think it could be someone else that could bring their their perspective and a worldview that we don't normally have to inspire our own people.

Thank you. And I'll just say I think a lot of the the value um for our ORM residents from a program like this is having somebody from the outside uh come and just partner with UVU, partner with the school district. Uh get out there uh and work with young people very actively just bring new things that we just don't currently have in terms of programming. uh we could it's essentially bringing a whole series of uh as part of the the contract associated with coming that inspires and has just touch points all throughout the city with lots of I guess I would want to understand what do you mean by

I don't I feel like we're not living under a rock here I feel like we're pretty aware I I mean it kind of made it sound like we're we need to be enlightened but I I I don't know I guess I don't know what that means then just visit schools, right? Having if it's a visual artist, having an exhibition where you invite lots lots of young people um to participate. Uh if it's a writer, being able to work with young aspiring writers, people in senior English classes to really help people understand the process and get them exposed to things that maybe they haven't had a chance to

professionally like him. So, one of my concerns with that is we don't have really the ability to speak for UVU or the school district on how that looks. And so, putting money towards something that we don't know whether or not we can actually functionally do

is a little bit concerning. The Sierra seems like our best bet in partnering with somebody to have that or using library hall, that kind of thing. And so, I I just I still worry about putting money towards outside artist. I still worry about that part. I I think we have enough local talent. We have great local talent that until we exhaust that we're not we're not serving our citizens and the tax money that they need. I think we have a different perspective of that.

So, how do we decide? I mean, we can have different perspectives, but how do we what direction do we give to Bryce? I mean, you know, what's the application going to look like? Who's what's the rubric? Do we put do we put a higher point system to local or not? I mean, that's what you want. Those are the answers the questions you want answered, right, Bryson?

I made we made a first run at it in our um in the information we shared with uh you know, Brandon ahead of that. I'd be happy to share that with the group. I think it again was meant to be illustrative and to say we would love to work with these the arts commission library commission to shape that. Um but if that would be useful to say hey how do how do we set this up? How much programming do we do? How much of each of these things? What do we value? And we'd be able to work with our missions or Yeah. So here's the question too. So when you talk programming are we then taking money out of the facilities to have because this person's going to come to library hall. So is that out of that 30,000 to then rent library hall for them or multiple people?

You know what I mean for that night? Do we have one night of kind of like the art night or I I think generally if they're using our facilities they would fall, you know, the library hall would cover their rental. But I I I think to your point, yeah, there would be other costs associated with running a program like this. And I think that 30,000 would have to be uh comprehensive of the cost of the program. We don't we don't have library funding set aside to operate this program outside of this upcoming fiscal year. We didn't put together accounts towards it.

I might suggest that you know we start with a steering committee and that you know the steering committee might include chair of the arts commission include Bryce might include Pete um and just some of those decisions I don't think we're positioned as a city council to make I would like to have it be brought to the city council. I would like a proposal from maybe arts and library commissions then come to us as far as how these funds are going to be.

Well, I think um I think it makes sense to be an ORUM first. I mean that's kind of the priority is we use orum artists, writers, etc. But depending on what the event is, um, you know, it would be it might be fun to have somebody from outside depending on what the event is, but if in other events it would be great to have somebody from Worm and I and I agree. I think, you know, we should look within our own within our own homes and neighborhoods and is there somebody that could do this for us? And if that works, great. If not, it's a totally different event uh depending on what the goal of the event is from the arts commission than maybe look outside in those situations. I don't think it has to be a one size fits all depending on what the what the event what the goal of the while I'm here. Maybe maybe we can go back and and try to develop a proposed policy that would show essentially how how will we show that we will give something to ORM residents through an application process and andor a preference to a demonstrated ability to partner with ORM entities like ORM Sierra ORM schools or UVU and and see if we can bring back a a framework policy that

that you think is achievable. And I'm sorry, I'm going to be that person. Are we doing it just with our artist and writer and residents, but what about our honorarium? Do we do have a policy for them? And do we have a policy for those who get the rent from the library hall or for our care tax recipients or for the for the other career advancement? I think that if we do it for one, we need to do it for all. The rent one is covered underneath that when they apply, they have the that's already part of that application. They have the ability to do that.

Do what I'm saying is as we're talking about having a policy come back, but do we need policies to come to the city council for the honorarium program and for the library hall or how I'm trying to understand the difference. They already qualify for facility rental. That's at the honorary, correct me if I'm wrong. That's the current currently anyone that's on this list will qualify for three library hall rental. I guess my my what I was kind of thinking is kind of the knowledge that you got when you researched how other communities did it and then putting that together with this same lens of maybe we look for ORM people and have an option in case we don't have talented ORM people to bring I don't know is that what you guys are

is that something that the commission the arts council can look at I know the care commission's typically been a heavy to pull them back in September but

well that would be fun for not to do signals on if you want more meetings, but I I yes, I would love the idea to test this out um and report back. I I would hope every year we test it out, report back, and if we find that the value and versus work and and financial commitment from our residents has changed, then we tweak or cancel or fail fast and move on. because we could totally find like to your point Quinn, there could be an outside person we pull in and they just hit it out of the park, you know. So, I'm not opposed to any of that, but I would like to hear what other cities have done. Maybe have I like your idea of the care commission being the ones who finalize or or not finalize, but um draft that type of application. It it might actually make more sense just because the care commission is seasonal to have the arts and the library commission work on it,

but they only do go one time. They only I mean I think it'd be great to pull them back in because they're the ones that are going to be awarding these dollars. So, let's give them let's pull them in in September again. Said

I I could prepare those options, I think, for y'all as a council. And I would also I guess one other thing I could prepare if it would be helpful for y'all is unintended consequences on the other groups. If we did a ORM only or ORM preferred I don't know if that would be helpful to be like oh well then these a like uh I don't want to call it one group but like oh maybe they're actually based in London and but we they practice or perform here. It's like, oh, I would want y'all to see if, you know, as we make a policy for his one program, if it would have accidental ripple effects elsewhere. So, I can prepare some of that and return to y'all.

But can I just can I just say to that it's always been that way and I feel like the care commission has always handled that really well and I trust the care commission to you know that what you just went through. Um, that's why maybe some get more money and some don't get as much money. I mean that is very carefully part of the process of of that. So I'm I'm completely comfortable with that as it is right

for me they they do consider those things carefully. Yeah. I think maybe um coming back to the council could be you know a return and report via you know mail memo uh uh in my meetings with you with you all and I use the term policy maybe lightly maybe it's looking at the rubric the rubric and the application process that our care commission did and and and trying to make sure that our artists and library commission take those things You want to say one more thing?

Well, two more. We want to talk about the application thing, but the I would actually I'm not quite sure where when we strayed from this last year, but it used to be that the council would um award and discuss the major grants. And when you got when you're dealing with a million dollars, I feel like that should be council versus the year commission. I I really appreciate the care commission with the mids and the care commission did nothing with the major grids. Okay. Well, then it was Quinn and Jen and staff. Yeah.

And staff. Yeah. Maybe if we could have that. I think that might be a little more transparent too, a little more discession oriented and maybe even more of a rahrh for this bureau where everyone can really see what they are offering for community. Is that just to do that? Right. Been quite a while since we've done as far as them presentation. So we have it was when the hail left. Well, yeah, there were even before the hail left, they didn't present anything considered together as a group because I know when I was on the care commission when Jeff and I were

they used to Yeah. they would come in and they would know that it used to. So that's going back and then they took it away from our care commission and said this is for the city council. So I noticed that Adam came to the work session so we could maybe more distinctly you know recognize and have a you know a Q&A or a back and forth

uh in future um care deliberations specifically for especially for our major grants. Um and but then also note at the request of Adam um uh we we have him come and do a presentation in a council meeting in the fall after the uh the shell program. So that he has some recent data and impact to share well as visuals to go along with it so that it's not a so not a presentation but just part of the budgeting. Correct.

So I think next year I'll I'll be sure to meet with Adam and and make sure that he comes to a work session to have you know just a back and forth you ask questions. he can he can maybe highlight uh uh the application material that he puts in. Um and then uh and then beyond that he would come to a regular council meeting in the fall after the shell does their reportive event.

Okay. Should I say this last thing real quick because I know we're over time, but um so yeah, the only thing that I heard feedback from was on your on the form is they wanted to you'd have the one part where you say how many do you kind of like how many in the population do you serve also was how many residents are involved in your group was something that she had said and then um okay there's there are some groups that are on our care that are um historical community um founded community um beloved groups. They've been there since day one.

Yes. And um I I just wonder I felt like there there could be a somewhere in the rubric we need to have a way to show that that's who those groups are and why we support them. Um I I was taking So there's a couple groups that are um historical groups, legacy groups, yeah, that that probably don't score very high on some of these rubric questions, but due to their um maybe they could say touch points their

historical roads given point. Yeah, that was the only other thing that I certainly shant that's the exact philos

one thing that the commission talked a lot about again this is my first year so I I was learning a lot from our our commission but uh one thing that they were concerned with trying to assess as they heard presentations was uh they see this money as kind of startup money to help people get started um but they don't want groups to be dependent dependent on it year after year without seeking additional funding. So they often asked presenters as they came what additional funding are you seeking and how how are you trying to become self-sufficient and that was one of the criteria that they talked about and sometimes that was a little bit intention with this this particular designation which is we have some groups that are more active in seeking outside funding than others.

Yeah. and and I because our policy is I don't know if it's a policy but you know the care does kind of talk about that so there has to but um just a consideration there I don't know how to do it but it's a good point at least uh I'm looking at Trevor be pretty easy to add into the rubric something that speaks to historical experience impact one of the questions on there is like overall value to the community and I think that would be the opportunity to either add some subcategories or something that would legacy components so that group could get or allow the commission to vote.

If we go back in time, it it was these legacy groups and the Sierra that actually passed the care tax that got us the Well, and some of these groups like the Shantinets, they serve I don't know how many on here really service our senior population like the Shantanets do. And so who are they serving? How many how many of these groups are we are they are is their focus on a certain subset of the population. And so seeing the subset of the population that their focus is on might be helpful too. I think that is why we have interviews that are supposed to sell that not not us.

Yes. So um as I argue that they should be the ones trying to sell a commission and keep in mind this is just the commission's proposal every right to change whatever you want as the wording entity. This is called deliberations for a lesson.

We certainly and almost every one of the and that was one of the things on the rubric we already had talked about adding as far as having a specific item on there as far as the um the number of people that are on in their group that are ORM residents if you will. We asked every one of them, but we will definitely put it. Yeah. And she did say that. She said we had to ask. She said, "But if you could add that, tell them to maybe add that, you know." Um, that was Yeah. There she is very appreciative of all your work on this. Um, said she liked it so much better.

And we realize it's a work in progress, so hopefully you do, too. Um, we're constantly trying to refine it. Oh, good. It was good. Thanks for the effort. Right. Anything else?

So, so what would happen is so also keep in mind art and writer now that we kind of know that maybe you want to have some sort of call it third party um awarding. I don't know how other to say that. Um but you know that 30 that those monies wouldn't necessarily um just be spent you know without some sort of uh prior approval. um whatever that prior approval ended up looking like. Um and so if if for whatever reason no agreement could be made on that. So it's not like those monies just disappear. They they stay within the the care fund and you can move those around wherever it is uh we you know as a council you felt like they needed to go if that didn't work out.

So keep that in mind as well. Yeah. Because can I just I mean I think 30,000 is a lot. I mean, we're only giving the ballet 25 and we've been doing that for 20 years or 15 years we've been doing this, but um so I'm I'm willing to go with that because I'm not familiar with what it is and I'd like to help do some seed money there. But to the point of every year it being that much, I really I don't know that, you know, I guess you're saying, right?

That's what you're saying is we'll see if we spend the money. So yeah, so we would come forward in our u the May 12th council meeting with the resolution or or I think it's an ordinance the ordinance with this exhibit and then point is that fair statement of where we would be going. Yes. Thank you.

Thank you. This has been a good discussion. That's one of the things I I really like about ORM is that we're we're doing things that haven't been done before. Not that we're off doing something kind of halfcocked or whatever, but we're we're doing this and so we don't have a lot of Well, this is our first rodeo and so if it were our second or third or fourth rodeo, it would be the discussion would be a bit different. But I'm grateful to have these discussions with our first rodeo. And now we're going to go to the one that's the agenda item is the most fun to say fleet and streets of a budget and thing Carter our fleet manager Chris Sher public works director and Bill are you here for moral support

I'm here for presentation okay he's here for the muscle he's for the streets so we got the fleets in the streets thank you how uh being respectful of time how much time do I have you want the long version short version. Okay, it says here 30 minutes, but we're um we're 10 minutes over what I mean, but I want to respect I want you to be able to say what you need to say and that you sat over three hours to come and say give give a short version in terms of what you present and Chris also please feel free to ask questions and then know that uh this presentation and supporting documentation

Yeah, I'm look through the I want I've been I've been in your shoes in other presentations when the council's I want you to feel like you've got you you got to say what you came to say.

We'll race through it pretty quick and if there's questions feel free to ask. Um uh Teresa shared with all of you I hope that the three spreadsheets uh the first spreadsheet is general fund leasing. The second spreadsheet is general fund uh purchasing and then the final one is enterprise and there are different types of purchases there um basically leasing uh different types of leasing uh purchasing and then syncing funds. We'll dive right into it and I I won't so much go for uh all the description of the vehicles but um kind of the amounts here. You'll see that uh we're going to extend the lease one year on four vehicles for $15,000. Um and then we're going to trade in 12 vehicles and lease new vehicles for 12 for lease for $164,500. And then we have an annual lease payment on multiple vehicles um that are still year two of three and uh uh year three of three for $105,500 for 10 of those vehicles. Uh the fire department, we're we're funding a pumper for a seven-year lease, I believe. Um not a lease, we're going to finance it uh for $160,000 a year.

This is the one that you're waiting for the documents for. Okay. Okay. So, this is a purchase set. This is our lease purchase. Yes. We're intended. We're flying back on the 19th for a final inspection. So, we'll Okay. So, I'm waiting for the email.

We soon and then uh one of the vehicles will be uh selling and and recouping 35,000 estimate from that. So, um, the subtotal here for by departments, $410,000 for all of them. And then you'll see the breakdown there. And now we move into purchasing. Uh, there's three vehicles that we propose uh, purchasing for the parks department that we currently leasing. Uh, the lease is getting expensive, so more sense to purchase. uh an excavator, a small loader, and a a trailer to transport them for $76,000. Um community development uh they look a little low for $9,000 for two vehicles, but those are being repurposed from enterprise funds, and those are going to help. Uh they're a little bit fitting. Parks and Recreation, $27,500. There's a a large gang mower in there and some UTVs and a couple small mowers, riding mowers. And then um traffic, $80,000 for a van, a fulls size van to transport the that folds around and work on signs. And then uh we come to purchasing for the general fund, $663,000. You'll see animal control patrol, K9, some sport utility vehicles. uh some of those are hybrid then uh uh some undercover vehicles there. So the request for the general fund uh is just over a million dollars. There's a quick breakdown there. Move into uh hold on that was for purchasing

and then the total request is just under 1.5 million. If I can just highlight here perhaps especially for those that are in the council, you'll notice a kind of a multi-pronged approach. And we base this this approach off of trying to balance cash flow versus what's the best deal versus what we can manage or uh you know where the warranties are at and look at all of that on a vehicle per vehicle basis to then yeah I can post

I did read the spreadsheet just so you know go through all I reading between the lines there. Um, are you saying that because sometimes it makes more sense to lease and sometimes it makes more sense to buy and question. It's a case by case kind of thing and that's why we have some leases and some purchases. Exactly. And I'll add to that as well that you mentioned uh mentioned that enterprise funds will often times purchase newer view new vehicles then after uh being lightly used we will then ship them down to other including general fund departments. to what was it? Two trucks or so,000. It's one of those situations. Our new truck is their used truck.

Yeah. Like brother, big brother cozy coupe or something. That's how my kids feel about Chris's also giving me a couple of sweaters.

Thank you. That uh should we go into enterprise funds real quick? Yes. saving quicker. Um, as there it's pretty consistent year to year uh with storm water. We have syncing funds where we're saving our vehicles on buyback programs when we we purchase and we fill in three years. So, you'll see fouryear threeyear fouryear estimations of the sinking. Are you is that you're meeting that dollar amount and that's an adequate time frame? Yes. Like that jet roer we've been saving um for two years already and this is the third year. third year pays for it and you're still on track with what do you need it and most good

um most often that's the case we do have a generator at the very end of this presentation where we had to bump it one more year found the pricing was a bit more anticipated but anyway I'd say things crystal ball is pretty darn good to do most out on the final year but yes there are exceptions to them

yeah it's always nice to have the bank already uh you know already sinking fund with a big chunk of that ready to go. So here's the breakdown for streets. Here's water reclamation. Couple big ones is a jet roer and the bottom one there a camera van inspection van for this first and then the water department. Um, a little bit bigger request than the other funds. Total for enterprise funds is just under 2 million. Here's a tenure history if you're uh this is all on the on the spreadsheet too on sheets four and five. So, and that's that's the end of the presentation. um $3.4 million request for vehicle replacement this year.

Any questions? How's that working out maintenance-wise? Are we still are we saving money then because we're replacing we're not having any I mean I keep hearing all these new vehicles now have so much tech that they break down sooner or they have issues sooner. Is that do we need to worry about that or are we doing fine?

Um have to accelerate purchase sooner? Well, in some of some of the vehicles we do like the yellow iron are back we we purchased but then we flip in three years and maintenance is is in that program. The least vehicles also kind of helps take care of that. Uh but there's more and more vehicles. Yeah, they're getting a little bit scarier as they come. Um we have a few hybrids and if we have an issue with those, they'll probably just go to the dealer. But so far they've held up pretty good. We take a look at the warranties that are offered on CFS too and that we try to stay within warranty and something maybe comes up higher on the list to replace if warranties on bigger aspects of it at the end of the term.

How's the if you want to talk about the order bank has that timing improved at all? Yeah, it has improved a lot. uh CO threw some curve balls and it was hard to get vehicles. I had to kind of do things a little differently, but now things are steady. The order banks uh been open for months. Most of them are closed now, but they'll reopen pretty soon. It's it's a lot less stressful that build times. We've seen some of the one ton forts come in in about two two and a half months, which is incredible. Uh during the co days we were waiting sometimes around a year. Yeah.

And the only reason I bring that up Quinn you mentioned about capital projects and when almost all of that money does get spent in that fiscal year. There are a few that maybe near the end of the fiscal year and so we might not get them done in the fiscal year. It may happen right at the beginning of the next fiscal year but usually does not go much beyond that. I say that obviously there's a large amount of that 3.4 million as you saw that were sinking fund related bigger vehicles. So it's not that entire 3 million like fire engines and jet rotors and stuff maybe

the ones we truly intend to purchase those things that those ones do happen. Thank you track of all of that. Welcome. Thanks everybody for your help. It's been a It's always a really involved process. He's done a phenomenal job over the last several years on this. Every year it gets better and better. So, he pays a lot of attention to detail. He has a great staff. Robbie Robbie is here right now. And and Sean and Sean, sorry. Any was there anyone else? Thank you.

Question and maybe you already answered this while I was out. How many vehicles are in our fleet? Is that a fair question? Yeah, there's non more than a lot. I

actually actually ran a report today and of all the vehicles and equipment including small equipment we have at 100,361. But most people are more interested in um like vehicles we drive. We have about 350 vehicles that we drive. We have about another uh 250 vehicles when you look at riding mowers, trailers, um backhos and different things like that. So about about 550 600 uh bigger type vehicles and then a lot of small stuff. So thank you. Thank you.

Thank you for your patience waiting for us. You bet. We could ask you what you think about occupancy.

He bases it on seat belts. Oh, that was seat belts in each. Excuse you for a second. All right. Now we go to the streets portion. Bill, thank you for your patience. And what are your thoughts on those streets? There we go. Oh, the tough I don't want to pass the tough utility fee. Can you tell us about that tonight? Yeah, I'll be able to. Um, does anyone need a break? 610, but uh how much time do I have, Brian?

Five minutes. uh definitely introduce it and share maybe kind of the major milestones from here to go through this full process.

I'll start with uh so um what are we calling it down there at Sarah now? Uh the the project with the arts and all of that heart. So, so the heart of Warham Part of that component could be funded in part by a tough revenue source which is 720 South Street which might cost around $100,000 to do an overlay or about uh you know significantly more uh to do a reconstruct. So part of the vision for that I think is that team Bill and I team. So first of all this is this is Bill Street. Sorry, Bill Peterson. straight and then I feel straight up. He's not

great Mary Street. So anyway, um Bill and I started probably about this, you know, within like a month or two of each other. Been a minute. Yeah. 199 1994.

Yeah. We have two we have two division managers that have announced retirement. So out of the hundreds of years of of expertise we have there, two of them are are now officially leaving. uh one's our storm water and that is uh Rick Sabi and then GIS not to get off track here but and then also Cody Stagel is our GIS first GIS division manager in the history of OR and so we have two vacancies there and also I have Tyler that was stolen by Rice. We got some things to do in any case. Tough this tough fee we I introduced it to you a couple weeks ago. Um, I have Bill here to help out with questions. Thank you to the What was mine? I thought anything else. Okay, very good. Thank you. Um, I'm going to zip through some of these at the very beginning and Bill can answer some detailed questions that you might have. Today we have how many millions tens of millions of square feet of asphalt do you think we have in the city? odd. It's 50 50 million. If we were to construct them all today, reconstruct everything today, it's $8 a square foot. What is that?

That's a lot. 400 400 million, I think, if I doing the math right.

And then for So, and 75% of our asphalt that we own right now today is local streets. And that's where we're showing that we have significant aging and concerns. We've focused on commercials, our uh connectors and arterials. This map here shows uh anything that's about 60% or 50% of our roads in local roads are over 50 to 60 years old today and we've stretched the life as long as we could. Uh we mentioned to you last time about the condition index and so forth. Highend condition indexes from 90 to 100 or low as all 29 to zero. Our roads primarily right now for our locals are in this category of fair. every year they degrade about uh 3% so they're going to be approaching the poor category at which point we might need to reconstruct. So our plan right now is with the help of this uh this tough fee is that we'll be able to extend the life beyond what we see here if we don't do any maintenance to be on it here. Um the loads when they reach uh reach a certain condition though um and degraded then we need to repair uh not just repair them we need to perhaps overlay them or replace them altogether and reconstruct them. This shows a condition index. Uh red is meaning they've failed. Green bright green means that they're perfect. We don't have any bright greens but we do have some reds that are popping up. Everything in between is somewhere around 60 or so 50 on our OCI. We're getting to a critical point right now in our in our street system. So, what's what do the different OCI conditions look like? This is an OCI 90 to 100. That's 89 to 70. Looking at this one here, it's 50 to 69. 30 to 49. This is starting to get to the point where we might need to reconstruct. And I'm going to show you some reconstruction examples on here. Um on 17 South, we're doing a project down

there today. We are reconstructing this after we put in a new water line and sewer line in this street from 800 East over to State Street. This is another one that's on our list. If we had the funding available um to do to reconstruct this on Northwest from 1580 South to 18800 South, this street is basically glued together. Uh this is a lot of gorilla glue that we're going to use in here. This is crack sealing. This is what This is amazing though. This is a cheap dollar amount to extend the life of the road. It doesn't look pretty. It's lipstick, but uh it does extend the life quite dramatically. I am the behold. I am the beholder. Chris, this is pretty. What do you

residing skateboard? You would hurt yourself on these terror attacks for creative care. optimistic, right? This is a failed road here in 600 North. You can see on this one, we already have curved guttered sidewalk in both sides. We look we're looking to do that. This is this is really rough. Um, this one is a really interesting example that Bill prepared. This picture on the left is a great example of what slurry seals will hide. Okay, over here that is the same street like a year later. It looks like this. That's a skin patch. That's all we've done there. It looks nice, but it's going to look like this in a short amount of time. Bill, how many years will it take? One one or two years to look like this again?

Oh, a couple. Yeah,

couple of years. So, we're just we're just kind of stretching it along as the best we can. So, these are all examples of roads that we're planning on reconstructing that are reaching that level below probably OCI of 40 or so. 70% of our streets are local. That's 35 million square feet. Um, if we were to reconstruct all of those, that's $8 a square foot versus $2 a square foot of an overlay. So, we're looking at targeting these roads to being overlaid altogether. You might ask, what is our plan? This is our 5-year plan right now. We have a plan for the next 25 years for every single road in the city, every single road segment. This is an example I'm going to blow up a little bit here. If we had $4 million for asphalt, this is what we would do for overlays over the next five years. Um, I mentioned this already, but 35 million square ft of asphalt is local streets and another 15 or 14 million is arterials and collectors that we have a really good handle on right now. The locals is where we need to focus.

Can I just ask one quick question? I'm just curious, Chris. do the who are the employees that do all this patch stuff, the slurry and then who makes all the squiggly lines? Are they Om city employees or is that contracted out? Contracted out. Bill manages all of that. Okay. We do we do a lot of asphalt work in the city. We How many tons of asphalt did we put down last year? Uh right around 4,000 4,000 tons. And then how many cubic yards or of of concrete? Concrete right around 800. 800. And so they have a fantastic crew that hits that. They're on the ready to handle issues, not to reconstruct a new road per se, but to make sure that the road is safe to traverse at any time. And if we have soft spots and things like that, we need

Yeah, they'll go through all these roads uh prior year before a slurry and level them. Uh remove any areas that are bad. If they need a crown, they might run the paper cross put a crown before it gets a slurry. So, but we are doing the better. So we do more targeted, smaller scope of work. Yeah. And we're quick to react and make it so it's acceptable level of so we can get ramps that we can talk to the curbs in.

This is what we're targeting right now for concrete. When you're looking at a road, it's not just asphalt. We have to look at the curb gutter sidewalk, ADA ramps, handicap ramps, and so forth. Of all of our high hazard rated sidewalks, we got about 3,100 ft of that. And then for our missing ramps that where we have existing sidewalks but we don't have ADA ramps, that's about 400 of those. And so that breakdown comes to about almost $4 million is what we're looking at. And we're proposing to spend about uh 10% of that a year. So that' be about 400,000 just on concrete alone. We have a plan right now. This is year one that goes out 27 26 different road segments in the city. The first four or five are about $8 a square foot. Everything else is about $2 a square foot. Those are all being escalated uh for $5 or 5% a year over the next every year for the next five years. This is what we'll be doing. If we receive tough revenues uh for $4 million, we would be spending about $336,000 three about $400,000 on concrete, $400,000 for admin, and about 3.2 million on asphalt. Similarly, in phase two or or the next year, we have another 26 projects or so, all identified on our map. This is phase three. Everything's identified. We have 48 projects on this year. We have 47 projects on this year. You can't read this. I'm just saying and demonstrating to you. BJ can probably, but we have a plan. This plan is in place. We're at the ready. As soon as the funding is available, we will start executing this plan. Any questions?

So, we could do that within the fiscal year if the funds were available. Yes. Yeah. It's it's probably it'll probably take us to handle all of these local streets about 20 years on this projected time frame. The longer we delay, we'll go back and do it again. Well, yes. Yes. Exactly. Rinse and repeat. Every year it degrades about 3%. So our score is dropping about 3% a year. So after 20 years it'll go from like a if it's a score of 100 today, it'll drop down to about 40 by the time we get to it in 20 years.

Yeah. With no surface. with no no maintenance, no surface treatments and so forth. But we do do that. We stretch the life as best we can. Back sealing surly slurry seals and so forth. We started the slurry rotation. Our our slurry seal rotation is every eight years. It started back in 2003 and the recommendations in the state of the street was after three slurry sills it the road needs a milllay. And we are currently starting our fourth uh rotation. Wow. Wow.

I'm just curious the cost the inflationary cost from year to year by not doing it. I mean is the cost obviously goes up compounding 5% probably on average a year, right? We feel like this is not too aggressive but it's responsible. Um, and it's something that we cannot uh not address. We need to be progressive and take care of it. Have asphalt prices jumped?

They uh I believe they jumped last year by about $20. They were we were paying 50 and it jumped to 72. Depends on what mix you're getting. We're small enough that we can't actually unless we're doing a big job, we have to take what they're they're making at Geneva 7. I guess you want to give the the timeline of approval process from here mind the council of that.

Right. So, we need to adopt a resolution and ordinance that adopts the transportation utility fund in the city of ORM. We're working with legal on on preparing that right now. Um we feel like we have a pretty robust plan in place to address asphalt and concrete. So I think that's in place. We've checked the majority of the check boxes with the exception of the resolution and knowing the targeted amount to do. And uh and then we're also waiting on uh finishing the UVU traffic study that's uh started out and they uh it might be windy. So, it's right on the cusp of getting that finalized so we can tweak the rates.

All right, Kelsey, do you have any questions? Thank you. Thank you. Great. Thank you. All right. So, thank you all. Just a reminder that tomorrow we have a birthday party over in the park at 6. is opening the farmers market and seventh birthday and our neighbor is going to be there giving out. So, um Steve, do we need a motion to adjourn? Yes. Okay, we need a motion to adjurnn.

We have a motion. Second. All those in favor. We're see you tomorrow. That was