Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Hello. This meeting is now called order. Welcome to the 05/04/2026 planning commission meeting. We'll begin with the roll call. Casey, will you please call the roll?

Yes. Chair Quieten?

Here.

Vice chair Daniel Garcia?

Here.

Commissioner Berger?

Here.

Commissioner Rafael Garcia? I don't see him. Commissioner Grubb is excused this evening. Commissioner Ibrahimovic is excused. Commissioner Najati?

Here.

Commissioner Sauroff?

Here.

And commissioner Talias? I don't see him either. It's okay. We do have quorums here.

Great. Thank you, Casey. Our first order of business is approval of tonight's agenda. Do I have a motion? Can the motion maker please state their name?

So moved. This is Aaron.

Seconded. This is Daniel.

It's been moved by Aaron and seconded by Daniel to approve the agenda for the May 4 planning commission meeting. All those in favor, aye.

Aye.

Aye. Any opposed, say nay. Any abstentions? Okay. The agenda has been approved as submitted. Moving on to approval of the minutes from the 04/20/2026 planning commission meeting. Is there a motion?

So moved, Daniel.

Second. It's been

moved by Daniel and seconded by Aaron to approve the minutes from the 04/20/2026 planning commission meeting. All those in favor, say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed, say nay. Any abstentions? Okay. The minutes are approved. We'll go on to public comments. This portion of the meeting is an opportunity for members of the audience to speak on any items related to Citi business, including items on the agenda, except those items for which the commission held a public hearing but has not yet completed its deliberations and issued a recommendation to city council or where the speaker promotes or opposes a candidate for public office or a ballot measure.

Comments on all topics will be allowed during this portion of the meeting tonight. I will identify two to three speakers. And when your name is called, the host will unmute the microphone. You'll then need to unmute your microphone before you start speaking. Comments will be limited to three minutes, and staff or one of the commissioners will share a countdown clock. We'll interrupt you and ask you to quickly finish your comments if you extend beyond three minutes. And I believe we have a few folks online in the audience. If you'd like to use your raise hand button, we will, let you in and hear from you. Jim Lazar.

Jim, I'm about to promote you to panels. You should see a little pop up. Jim, when you're ready, go ahead and just state your name, and we'll start the timer. And you should see that timer in my camera screen there.

Hi. Walking is the number one form of transportation in the country. 40% of us don't drive, Even people using mobility assistance devices use the sidewalks. We've been struggling with sidewalk repair since I served on the bikeped committee thirty years ago. We now have funding through the TBD sales tax. $3,000,000 a year for active transportation. Let's put it to work soon. The city has hired one four person crew, as I understand. It needs two more. One crew to work on panel replacements on major streets.

One crew to work on panel replacements on neighborhood streets. That neighborhood crew should alternate quadrants of the city every week or two so that everyone, every part of the city sees their tax dollars at work. But most important, what I wanna focus on today is a crew just to do grinding where pavement irregularities are under two inches and full panel replacements are not needed. We have thousands of these in the inventory. I've reported dozens of them on the Olympia Connects app.

Few, if any, have been fixed. Each crew should have an electric pickup truck, an equipment trailer. The trailer would include an electric jackhammer, electric concrete saw, and electric cement mixer. They can all run off of the power system of a Ford Lightning or Chevy pickup electric pickup. It can be mostly quiet in the neighborhoods when they work.

Well, relatively quiet. An electric jackhammer does make a fair amount of noise, but a lot less than a separate compressor and air hammer. The grinding crew should be hired next week and start work the following week. There's no reason to delay. They could grind 20 to 50 spots a day.

I've watched a grinding pro at work. They do a spot in five or ten minutes. That's a couple of 100 spots a week, a couple of thousand by the end of the year. This, in my opinion, is the single most important expenditure that should be made with the TBD sales tax money because it provides the most benefit, the soonest to the most people in every part of the city for a reasonable amount of money, reducing hundreds and thousands of tripping hazards as we move along. I urge the planning commission to recommend hiring a dedicated sidewalk grinding crew to start work as soon as possible.

Thank you.

Thank you, Jim. If there are other people in the audience that would like to speak, go ahead and raise hand digitally. Okay. I'm not seeing any hands raised. Then we will move on to staff announcements.

Alright. Bear with me. So I just wanted to remind everyone that the city of Tumwater will be hosting a Department of Commerce short course on local planning local government planning. I would encourage any commissioners that haven't already taken this course or those wanting a refresher to consider attending. Course will be this week on May 6, which is Thursday excuse me, Wednesday.

That is on Wednesday. And it is from 5PM to 8PM at the City Of Tumwater Council Chambers. This training is also available via Zoom. The training is designed for local government staff, planning commissioners, elected officials, and community members interested in understanding how local land use and planning works in practice. I do request that if you commissioners, you plan to attend to please let me know. I I need twenty four hours notice to publish a quorum notice if we have five or more at ten. So I've got a, two members attending at this point. If any others plan to attend, please do just keep me posted. Otherwise, that is all I have for you this evening.

Great. Thank you, Casey. Then we will move on to business items. Nice business item six a is a briefing about developing a long term policy for sidewalk repair. Michelle Swanson, principal planner, and Max. Sorry if I mess mixed up your last name. Associate planner, both from Public Works Transportation, will be presenting on this topic tonight. Michelle and Max, would you like to begin?

Be glad to. Max, do you wanna talk about how to say your name?

Oh, he nailed it. That was exactly right.

Hold on. Great.

Alright. One presenter, and I was like, oh, no.

Well, let me go ahead and, do the whole fraught process of sharing, my screen, and I always feel like, you know, I'm gonna, like, get this wrong. So let's do this. So you should be able to see, like, my, my version of it right now, and then we'll make it, like, the present the the big pretty version of it. So can I get a thumbs up? Can you see the big pretty version? Fantastic.

Yes, Michelle.

Awesome. I did it right. Great. Well, for the record, your chair has already introduced me, but just to state it clearly, I am indeed Michelle Swanson, principal planner in Public Works Transportation. And I am here tonight to brief you on where we are at in developing a long term policy for sidewalk repair.

And of course, also with me is Max Dejarnett. Max is an associate planner in Public Works Transportation, and he works on a lot of the day to day matters related to sidewalk repair. So, he's here in case you have any questions that intersect with his work. So, I've got about fifteen minutes or so prepared for all of you tonight. If you have any questions as I go, I do hope you feel welcome to just jump in and ask.

There will also be plenty of time for Q and A when I'm done, and I really want to hear your discussion as well. I may not see your hand as I'm going along so I'm going to ask your chair if you'd be so kind chair Quieten to please keep an eye out for raised hands and just interrupt me if you need to. Does that work for you?

Sounds good.

Okay. Great. Thank you. So first of all, I want to be clear about the scope of what we're talking about this evening, and that is fixing existing sidewalks that are either lifted, cracked, or otherwise need to be repaired. The city does have a separate program and funding to build new sidewalks and that program is outlined in the Transportation Master Plan.

So, this conversation is just focused on repairing sidewalks. And it is some time in the making. So, this work began in 2022 when the City Council's Land Use and Environment Committee requested that staff research some different approaches to sidewalk repair. We did that and we returned in 2023 with a presentation that covered a variety of possible ways to address sidewalk repair. One of the outcomes of that meeting was the finding that we did not really know how much or where the sidewalk repair was needed.

So, Land Use and Environment Committee recommended that the city do a full inventory of the sidewalk network and rate its conditions. We did that inventory in 2024 and the city also began a capital program for sidewalk repairs then as well. That program has been funded at a half million dollars annually since. In 2025, we got the final results of that inventory, which we shared with this commission. We also shared it with the Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Committee as well as the Land Use and Environment Committee.

And the inventory is also posted on our website. Also in twenty twenty five's budget season, the City Council directed that a four person crew be created to do sidewalk repair. So, now we're here. The crew is being hired and will soon get to work. So, now we're talking about a long term policy approach.

And that's the 40,000 foot overview. So, we're going to drill down on each of these points a bit more, starting with the initial direction to research different policy approaches to sidewalk repair. And this really came about in the wake of the shutdowns during the pandemic as more people were at home and they were out walking for recreation and noticing the condition of the sidewalks. Like most cities in The United States, Olympia's existing code holds property owners responsible for maintaining the sidewalks that are adjacent to their property. And like most cities, Olympia has found that enforcing this code has been difficult for a variety of reasons.

We are not alone among cities when I say that we have enforced it unevenly when we have enforced it. Currently, we have an interim strategy in place and it works like this. Someone reports the sidewalk damage to the city. We send a letter to the property owner advising them that it is their responsibility to fix it, and the city also repairs sidewalks as resources allow on the same streets where we maintain street trees. We're in good company in seeking a better way to improve the state of repair of our sidewalks.

In fact, the state legislature's Joint Transportation Committee has funded a study about new ways that local governments in our state can fund sidewalk improvements. This project is still underway, but one of the preliminary findings is that of the cities that they surveyed, 72% required adjacent property owners to fix sidewalks. More than half reported that this was not effective and nearly all of the remainder said that it was only somewhat effective. This leaves only 3% of respondents reporting it as an effective policy. So, I mentioned this just to emphasize that we really are not alone.

Now in 2023 when I presented to the Land Use and Environment Committee a variety of policy alternatives, they fell along a spectrum that basically broke down between property owners being solely responsible, the city being solely responsible, and a middle ground with a kind of shared responsibility and then various options that fell along that spectrum in between. But it's hard to make a decision without knowing the scale of the problem that you're trying to address and that's why the Land Use and Environment Committee recommended doing an inventory of the city's sidewalks and their conditions. So, in 2024, we hired a consultant to do that inventory and of the two twenty six linear miles of sidewalks in the city, they found almost 28,000 unique locations that needed repair. They rated them based on severity, the results of which are shown in detail in the report and the report is posted to the city's website. You could link to it through the story map that was included as an attachment to your staff report if you were curious about it.

And just in case there's anybody who's listening in who doesn't know how to access the staff report and the attachments that I'm referring to during this presentation, they are on the city's website under the agendas and minutes heading that you link to in order to register to listen in to this meeting. Now, among the inventories findings were that 57% of the damage was classified as panel uplifts. These are mostly caused by tree roots. 38% were classified as cracking or spalling. Spalling is when the surface of the concrete is either chipping or wearing away.

So together, these two categories account for 95% of the type of damage that were found in the sidewalk inventory. While the inventory was underway, the city began the Capital Sidewalk Repair Program, which is funded at $500,000 annually from the new transportation benefit district revenue that the city began collecting in 2024. This funding is earmarked for pedestrian, bicycle, and active transportation projects. These projects have been done under our interim policy, so along our street tree corridors. In 2024, we repaired several different places in the city to gain experience with that method.

And you can see the before and after of one of those sites on the slide here. In 2025, we repaired two block faces. One was downtown on State Avenue and another was on the West Side on Kenyon Street. And we found that we saved a lot of overhead expenses by doing full block faces. We're So, planning to continue that practice in 2026.

Last year, in response to the results of the sidewalk inventory, the city funded four new positions to begin this year to repair sidewalks at $681,000 plus a one time expense of $149,000 for an excavator. This is also funded by the new revenue from the Transportation Benefit District. Hiring that crew is underway right now and we expect that they'll get to work shortly. We estimate that they'll repair between 20 to 25 sites per year. One lesson that's really been brought home particularly by the inventory results is the strong nexus that this has with our street tree policy.

Right now, the city's practice is to require both the city and private property owners to have an arborist on-site when doing sidewalk repair when a street tree is involved. So the arborist can assess whether the tree's roots can be pruned or the tree can be preserved. And there certainly are urban forestry policy questions to explore here, but for now the policy questions to examine have to do with where should the city focus its resources, and by resources I mean both the new crew and the capital program for sidewalk repair, and is there a role for property owners? Given the scale of the repairs that need to be done, it's unlikely the city resources alone will make the progress that the public expects to see. So, with that in mind, we launched a story map to outline some of the challenges and we asked the public for feedback in March.

Now, I included a link to the story map as an attachment to your staff report, so I assume that you've all seen it. We also embedded a survey into the story map to ask people what they thought about some of the key policy questions that I just outlined. And you can see a high level overview of the results of it in the story map right now. We also included more detailed results as attachments to your staff report. And finally, for those who wish to see the raw responses to some of the questions, they are available on the city's Engage Olympia page to which we also included a link.

Nearly 1,900 people viewed the story map between March 2 and March 20 when the survey was open and of that number of people three sixty three opted to respond to at least one question in the survey. I'll go over a few highlights from it, but I'm not going to cover everything here just for the sake of brevity. The details were, of course, attached to your staff report. So, first thing we asked about was whether people wanted us to continue prioritizing the street tree corridors for sidewalk repair, which we showed on a map as yellow streets for simplicity's sake, or if we should move in the direction of prioritizing places that are near common pedestrian destinations, which we showed on an interactive map. And those destinations included schools, parks, bus stops, grocery stores, and public buildings like libraries, post offices, etc.

And as you can see from the results, people supported prioritizing repairs close to common pedestrian destinations with 49% of respondents saying as much, while 21% of respondents preferred sticking with the street tree corridors. 29% of people took the opportunity to share their thoughts via the I have another idea button, and we shared a summary of those comments as an attachment to your staff report. I do want to note that there is some overlap between the street tree corridors and many common pedestrian destinations. The next question that we asked was about the role of property owners. We asked if the city continues to require property owners to fix their sidewalks, should this be limited to large property owners, such as schools, parks, shopping centers, and apartment complexes?

56% of respondents said yes, 13% said no, and 32% said they had another idea. As with the previous question, we also attached a summary of the other idea responses. And the last question we asked was, we'd like your thoughts on one more idea. When a property changes ownership, the city could require that the sidewalk be repaired at that time. 45% selected, I support requiring sidewalk repair when a property changes ownership, 34% selected I do not support this approach, and 21% selected unsure.

Among the comments, a couple of themes emerged that I wanted to bring to your attention. One, several people mentioned that they found it hard to know how to find a contractor who could work on their sidewalk. And two, for small property owners, particularly single family homeowners, the expense of fixing a sidewalk could be daunting. Many people express concern about neighbors who might not be able to afford to pay a contractor to fix their sidewalks. And to summarize the feedback that we heard, people think the city, not adjacent property owners, should be responsible for fixing sidewalks.

That said, there is some acceptance of large property owners being held responsible for fixing their sidewalks and there is also support for requiring that people fix their sidewalks upon sale of the property. Having shared all of this, we are interested in your thoughts and feedback. And as a reminder, the key policy issues are where should the city focus its resources and what is the role of property owners? And our next steps are to take a draft policy to the City Council's Land Use and Environment Committee on May 28. We'll ask for feedback on the policy and a recommendation to take it to the full council for a study session, which is scheduled for July 21.

So, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much. If there's anybody listening in who can't see my contact information on the slide and would like to get in touch, please do email me. My email address is mswansonci. Olympia. Wa dot us or you can call me at (360) 753-8575. And I'm gonna turn it over to your chair for your discussion. And if you have any questions, of course, I'd be very glad to answer them. Thank you.

Thank you, Michelle. Do folks have questions? Go ahead, Zainab.

Craig, this one is for you, because it's worth because, like, they've asked, like, policy, discussion and then, like, asking for input and then, like so my question for you is because, one, I felt this is, like, a big topic and we that it's not going to the council until July 21. Are we planning on writing a letter, I guess, to make sure that, like, our feedback isn't necessarily like, it's

You could, yeah, you could be a plant. I was gonna ask commissioners. I lean towards writing a letter. And if if other folks are on board with that, we can we can gather notes from this discussion and and I'll put them together.

I mean, obviously, I like that idea because that's why I was asking. Especially because I you know, so many of the other commissioners are not here right now. Yeah. So it'd be nice to get their opinion. Daniel, do you mind if I ask another question?

No. Go for it. Of course.

Okay. Thanks. Okay. So this one's for Michelle. So I have a question a couple questions here. I'm trying to understand. The you replaced two block faces, so Kenyon And 10th Street. And I'm wondering, so you mentioned that there were 28,000 sites that need to repair. The Kenyon Street and the 10th Street, I did not read the sidewalk repair inventory report. Are those each counted as one site in that like, what are the would that be two sites out of the 28,000 locations, or were there, like, multiple sites on the that block face?

So it was Cadian And State Avenue. Okay. And there could be multiple locations along those block faces.

So how many so was that so when you said you repaired nine was it 19 sites last year with the capital program? Is that right? Am I making up numbers?

We repaired, 19 locations, and I see Max is, popping up here. Max, do you wanna field this?

Yes. And I was actually pulling trying to pull up my detail on on how many locations. Essentially, once we had completed the conditioner the the inventory report, we were able to to look to basically capture all the points that were replaced with the full block face repair. So, you know, for for for Kenyon, I I don't wanna guess, and I can I can pull up the spreadsheet? I'm just reaching for it now, but it was certainly not one. It was there's very many throughout that whole stretch as with, State Avenue, downtown.

It'd be great if you could email that number. I'm just wondering, like like, what what counts as a site? Is it, like, when you have one panel, can it be multiple sites on a panel, or is it max from one? Okay.

Yes. Yeah. So our our, contractor, you know, cat cataloged every point of of defect. I mean, if it's, you know, one one I think there's some artistry there, you know, spalling. It's, you know, is is it a sort of an area on a panel? Uplifts are pretty clear. You know, there's a separation. If it's, I think, related to maybe the same upward pressure, they would call that one. And then they rate severity based on, you know, the the degree to which it's uplifted. But you could have, you know, multiple sites per panel. Multi you know, if if the panel is separated in sort of two or more distinct areas, those would count as, two distinct points.

Yeah. If you're able to, like, find that information, like, it, it would be really helpful because I'm trying to understand, like, the pace of repairs. And so we talked about 28,000 sites. But then when we talk about sites now, it's, like, a little bit of a different metric because it's, like, a panel or Mhmm. Like, a location in front of someone's house. Thanks.

Yep. Daniel?

Yeah. I was wondering, for the survey respondents, does the study have, like, sort of, like, a metric for, like, what number is seen as, like, representative? Because 363 seems really low. Like, I guess, what what would be seen as, like, a successful survey? Like, if you got to, like, a thousand or, like like, what is kind of, like, the number there that you guys kind of, like, aim for when getting, like, this feedback?

It's a great question. So, you know, when we're doing this type of work, we're not doing, like, a statistically valid survey. Right? So we're not doing, you know, seeking you know, doing a, like a statistically valid sample. And, what we're trying to do is we're trying to reach the people who are interested, the people who are concerned and are following this work and care about this work and want to weigh in on it.

And I think that we were successful. We did ask some demographic questions and the demographic questions did indicate that we reached, I think 83% of the people who responded identified as white and not Hispanic or Latino, which is using census language, which is loaded, you know, loaded language. And depending on the age group of people who respond that is not very of the population as a whole in Olympia, at least demographically, at least from a racial and ethnic perspective. So, you know, things are tough because what we're trying to do is make generally speaking in representative government, most people are only going to share their opinion if they're concerned that what you're doing is wrong. They're not gonna get involved if they're not bothered.

So

Also also to to

Please go ahead.

Also add, you know, there there might also be people that, you know, there might be questions of trust or they might Mhmm. Be questions of access and accessibility. So I guess I I I hear you on the you know, it's not necessarily a statistically valid sample. Totally hear you. You know, that would be very hard. I I hear that. But, like, I guess, the the, question, I guess, to be a little bit more direct would be, like, what outreach did you guys do to those other groups that maybe, you know, don't have computers, don't maybe follow city council as closely as, you know, some planning commissioners might. What outreach did you guys do to make sure that it was representative, not not statistically valid, but, like, what outreach did you guys do to maybe do outreach to those other groups?

Yeah. That's a great question, and we haven't done any outreach to people who are not computer savvy. So, it was all all online. So, I appreciate you bringing that up. Generally speaking, if you're about to implement a policy that is a bad policy, particularly in a community of our size, people will let you know. They will find you and they will tell you. And I find that reassuring. That perhaps doesn't sound very reassuring, to all of you, but, I have faith in our community that they will show up at a at a city council meeting if we're really going down Well the the wrong path.

I hear you on the the the feedback mechanism. Yes. But I guess before we get to a riot at city hall, I guess I would a couple steps before that, I guess I would ask, is there ways that the city can engage some of these groups? I think also because it seems while the the the sample is not statistically valid, it does seem like the the data is presented as though it is. So, like, when you're saying, like, 56% of respondents, but it's, like, one of the sample size is, like, less than 11% of Olympia's population.

It's like, I don't like, it it when you start adding in numbers, it sounds more authoritative, I guess, than it is. When you're like, oh, 56% of respondents said that they agreed or disagreed with the policy. But when it's, like, less than 1% of the whole population, I'm like, I don't know what I'm like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with that number. But it it sounds authoritative, but it I guess it doesn't. It's not.

That's a great point. Thank you.

Folks have other questions? Go ahead, Daniel.

One of the public commenters was saying that they wanted the idea to have, like, a grinder to do, like, these, like, quick fixes. Knowing that so much of the damage was due to panel uplifts, what do you think of that idea? Is that idea feasible? Like, would a grinder like that help? Or I I guess I was confused by the idea for the grinder. If most of the problem is uplift, then, like, how would that work? Like, is that a feasible solution, or is that, not really is that addressing the problem or not?

Yeah. Good question. We'll know more, after this first year of having the crew. We do have a grinder and, the crew has done grinding and, with this new staff, we'll certainly have more capacity, to do that. We're really wary of, over promising and under under delivering.

So what we wanna do with this new crew is see what they're capable of doing, get their feet underneath them, and see how much grinding they'll be able to do, and then we'll be able to better answer that question. Just like with the capital program, you know, in the first year of the capital program, as I said, you know, we tried one thing, then we were like, let's try another thing. We found the the other way. Like, we were able to, save money the other way. So, okay, we're gonna do it that way. So there will be some of that with with this new crew as well.

Thank you. Go ahead, Zaneb.

The the crew that you hired to do panel repairs, are they gonna work on or sidewalk repair, are they gonna work on it full time, like, the whole year round?

Yes. We expect so.

Okay. The how did you come up with the estimate of 20 like, 20 sites is what you expect them to be able to do in a year?

Our staff, have a work order system, that, they use to track the work that they do. So they are able to use that and to see what they what they've been able to do in the past. Because it's not like the city hasn't been doing sidewalk repair. Excuse me. Like, all of the photos and the presentation of, you know, city crew, out there doing sidewalk repair, you know, wearing City of Olympia branded orange gear was City Crew doing sidewalk repair in previous years. They do that work. So, you know, we have a pretty good sense of, what they have been able to do. And so they took the labor hours and, you know, did the estimates moving forward. So that's where it came from.

And just sites here, the 20 sites, does that mean, like, they're because you also mentioned that you're looking to prioritize, guess, like, full block repairs. So this 20 sites mean, like, 20 blocks?

No. So we're looking at a a kind of a two pronged approach. So one is we have the CFP program, the capital program. So, that's the program that you all review as part of your annual review of capital facilities plan. And so, that's the that's the block phase program.

And so, we hire a contractor to do that. And then, there's the city crew, which will be doing the two and three panel replacement program. And one of the advantages to having the CFP program is they are able to tackle the types of repairs that require some design work that can be done by our engineers in house and also can do some of the work that requires a lot of interfacing with like businesses and things like that. Because this is all handled by our staff in public works. The public works engineering department is what handles the implementation of capital projects, and they have the staff that can do that type of work.

So, they're able to do that, while the crew will be able to go out and focus on the panel replacements and get that done that maybe requires less of that sort of intensive interfacing with property owners. It will still require some of it, but not to the degree that that this capital program does.

I guess the the one point so 20 pan like, 20 sites in a year, that's, like, 1.6 panel, like, panels in a month. I guess, like, why so low? And have you looked at why it takes so long? That's it just seems like

Trees? Trees. It's complicated. You gotta get an arborist out there if there's a street tree involved. It is it is site specific work. Every site is different.

So my next question for you is, so you said, like, trees are one of it sounds like trees are major things that slows things down, but then you also have this issue where you prioritize right now places where there are trees, essentially, because it's the quarters where you do street tree maintenance. Mhmm. If you're trying to get the most work done, would it then make sense to actually focus on streets that don't have street trees?

That's a great question. Street trees are the biggest cause of panel uplifts.

But not all. So, like, the inventory that was done, is it noted where the uplift is caused by the trees?

Max, you wanna feel that?

Yes. So there's a little bit of subtlety here. So we've collected information on uplifts, and uplifts are are predominantly related to to to trees. Generally speaking, that's the damage the trees cause are uplifting, of sidewalks. Now so we we have four severity ratings, you know, one being the highest, four being the least, and our contractor could could reasonably show that trees could relate to the the moderate and the high severity, so the ones and twos.

Those are lifts that are in an inch or greater. It it it they couldn't show you know, if you had a a half inch half inch to an to an inch, they couldn't show that it was related to a tree, so they left those fields blank. But for the the severe and the moderately severe lifts, yes, we we have, information relating to the tree that's nearby that lift. For example, you know, deciduous or coniferous, if it's in the right of way or if it's in private property, what the the offset is from the sidewalk as well as what the diameter of the of the tree itself is.

Okay. The timing, you said, like, they have to get arborist out for these trees. Is some of the crew time, like, waiting for the arborist to, like, make their decision or, like, make their assessment that the crew doesn't necessarily have to be out there for?

I don't know. You know, they we don't we don't have this crew yet. So, you know, we're hiring them.

Okay.

Thank you. Yeah. Other

questions from folks? On the, on the tree issue, my my rec and I'm I'm, like, recalling, I think, a a presentation you made, Max, and also wondering whether you made it to the planning commissioner. I was listening to something else. But the there my recollection is there's well, at least a very, like, bright spot in that report. There was a new neighborhood that had, like, I guess, the wrong, like, soil and trees planted and got its sidewalks cracked by that.

I'm wondering on the well, I guess, both on on anything new we're doing with trees and then on, like, how are are, like, most of these locations places where, like, something or, like, old design or something was used in the street trees, or is there some other, kinda origin of the tree damage?

Yeah. We have changed our standards significantly. And a a lot of those newer developments where the trees are lifting the sidewalks, the roots are looking for air actually, because the soil was compacted by developers, when they were developing the subdivisions and they were driving over the, over the planter strips. And we didn't have standards that, held them to a requirement that the soil be aerated. So we now have, those standards, but, you know, a lot of those places were built out when we didn't.

We also have, standards for larger tree wells as well. And anything else that I should be mentioning, Max, that you can think of?

Well, the species list gets gets shorter over time.

Yeah. For sure. For sure.

Then then I'm I'm I guess my my ponder here is that, like, if we went and fixed those sidewalks with those trees next to them, is that a recipe for those sidewalks to be broken in a very short order of time again? Like, are are there places where we need to remedy the trees as well as the sidewalks? And then are there ways to, like, make those passable without taking out trees?

And that is the role of the arborist. So the arborist can assess if root pruning is feasible. But, yeah, this is a this is a site by site challenge, and it is possible that these will continue to be, ongoing maintenance issues. And it is possible that it will be necessary to continue to, as the trees grow, continue they may continue to, put push up the sidewalks. It's hard to say. You know, we're not clairvoyant.

Yeah. Okay. Great. I'll ask and see if other people have questions. I've got a couple more.

There's another one recalling from a a past presentation. There is at least some estimate of how much, like, the whole bill, from the cons or the whole map of of sidewalk maintenance would cost. And the some mention of the the, like, the city staff a city staff crew is gonna be more efficient than a contracted crew, and maybe that varies a little bit depending on if it's a block face or a panel by panel fix. But I'm wondering if if you have that top of mind if we could go back through that because my recollection is that, like, the amount of money we're putting towards it now is a long way from us getting, like, ahead of the issue overall.

I believe that was from the inventory. Yeah. Go ahead, Max, please.

Yeah. I have that those rough numbers here. So we we presented that the the just of the severe panel replacements, so those the 2,452, we estimated between 36 and $76,000,000 depending on if it was going to be city crew or contractor model. And then if it was addressed with city crews, at about 24 sites per year, that would be a hundred and two years versus a contractor at 19 sites per year. That was a hundred and twenty nine.

So if we wanted to do it in five ish or in a sorry. In, like, twenty years, we might be able to do that with a crew of five or five crews? Is that, like I think I'm doing the math right. But, like, if we had we we have one crew now. Jim giving public comment was talking about three crews, which seems like it fit under the the full, transportation benefit district extra without any leftover.

Right? But yeah. I guess, like, can we multiply that up to up to multiple crews and and, you know, get ahead of a hundred and two years? Or do we think we're gonna learn more about that they can go, you know, do more in a year, more sites in a year and we could get ahead of that?

Those numbers were really rough and they were based on the city of Shoreline. And, we have very different numbers here. So, I think that it would be better to wait until, we have at least a year's worth of experience with, our existing crew. I wanna apologize for my lighting, by the way. I was really excited about the weather, and I opened up my window, and it makes me look like I'm in a, like, a nineteen forties film noir movie. So

Great. Thanks.

Dan? Alright. For the question about, like, how long it will take, do we also know so, like, in addition to, like, severity, do we also know, like, how many people are using those sidewalks? So, like, for example, you talked about the block downtown that was repaired. I love that. I live downtown. I walk that sidewalk every, like, day. Very lovely. It's nice to have that be, like, flat and usable now. It was really bad before.

Do we know, like, you know, how many people roughly cross some of these locations? Like, do we know, like, oh, like, there's a lot of panel uplists from downtown street trees that, in theory, like, you know, tens of thousands of people use versus, like, a sidewalk that's, like, in a neighborhood that is still important, but maybe is, you know, only used by tens of people as opposed to, like, tens of thousand. Do like, is there a scale that we're look looking at for these locations?

That's a great question. I'm so glad you asked. We don't is the short answer. We have some pedestrian counts. We do, like, an annual count of pedestrians at 11 different locations in the city, that are on, like, major streets. Right? So that's very, very limited. And it's really just to kinda get, a pulse count of, you know, how the system is behaving. And even that is very susceptible to things like weather. Right?

So, short answer is no. And in terms of like data sources for that, even like big data sources, there are some new data sources that use, you know, kind of creepy stalkery cell phone data. And for a city of our size, even that is not very reliable. They're usually very small sample sizes and when you extrapolate outward, it's just not reliable because the sample size is small. And another very important thing, which is good, is that it suppresses youth data.

So, that also means that you can't get any data for people under the age of 18, which as a parent, I love. As a transportation planner, is problematic because we wanna know where where youth are going, particularly like school travel and things like that. So, as a dataset, it's just tough to get. So, this that that's the why behind the no, we don't have the data.

Can I ask a follow-up, Greg?

Go ahead.

Yeah.

In addition to data, like ArtsWalk. Right? Like, we know what sidewalks people use for ArtsWalk. Like, those are, like, sidewalks that, like, are in theory gonna be used more times, more times of the year for, I would say, important, like, cultural events. Like, is that gonna be part of the recommendations to city council is, like, in theory, a downtown street on 5th And Washington is going to be more highly trafficked in theory.

I know it's, like, not specific data, but, like, we know that, like, 5th And Washington is gonna see more parades, more events, more foot traffic than, say, I don't know, some random street in the Southwest Olympian neighborhood. Not to pick on that, but just Yeah. Like, will that be part of the recommendations to, like no. We know. Like, we it doesn't maybe not data, but, like, we know, like, Arts Walk is on certain streets. We know that certain streets are utilized more than others. Sidewalks are more utilized.

Yeah. That's a really great question, and it's a really great point. Cultural events is a is a really good idea. You know, something else we could take into consideration too are transit boardings. Of course, our transit routes have just changed significantly, as of yesterday. So, yeah, it's it's a it's a tough nut to crack really in a community of our size, and, it's a really great issue that you raise.

Well, yeah. I guess I'm just, like, the the one I hear, like, this, like, it would take, like, 28,000 sites over, like, a hundred years. I wonder if there's, like, 10 sites that we could repair that would, like, massively improve most people's day to day. So Yeah.

And, you know, that I think that's what we were thinking of when we were looking at the common pedestrian destinations. And, you know, that really has we tried to build a certain amount of equity into that, when we were thinking about that because the common pedestrian destinations, you know, we're taking into account bus stops, which is huge. And then, you know, the really essential places that people need to go, like grocery stores. And the inclusion of grocery stores is actually kind of unusual, which puzzles me. But in the realm of transportation planning, it's not something that's often included.

And we defined grocery stores, by way, as any place that sold fresh produce. That was kind of our threshold. And this actually comes from the development of our transportation master plan, and it also comes out of my thesis work from a thousand years ago when I was in graduate school. And I wrote my thesis on the gender gap in cycling, and there's a pretty significant gender gap and a lot of it has to do with the types of bike facilities that we build. And I realize this is going very far afield because we're talking about pedestrian facilities, I'm talking about bike facilities.

But one of the things that I learned as part of that work is that women tend to have different transportation patterns. Women tend to do more shopping trips. And so, that was one of the reasons why we included that in our destinations and our common pedestrian destinations, and also why we took that into account when we were doing our bike planning for the transportation master plan. So, you know, there's there's kind of like a way to we were looking to build equity in, of bake it into that concept of the pedestrian common pedestrian destinations when we were asking the question and when we showed it on the map, and people were were receptive to that. But there's obviously more that we can think about, so thank you.

Last question. Can you send us your thesis for possible reference for possible reference in a comment letter? No.

I was gonna mention when we we were briefed by some IT on the the redesign, and they were talking about that the data of boardings, and that seems like it would be a a useful piece to cross reference with some of the, you know, nearby the the busiest bus stops could be a good place to start for some of those repairs, seems like. Zaneb?

No. I was just I was just thinking it's like it's not the, yes, the busiest bus stops for interstate transit. But then I also wonder, like like, yes, like, car drivers do go to different places. Like, you're not gonna go to a furniture store typically on a bike or, like, walking, but I wonder if you could use, like because you have more extensive data on, like, average daily traffic counts for streets, like, vehicle traffic. Right, Michelle?

We do. And, usually, those the very busy streets are places people do not wanna walk.

Well, true. Like, Black Lake. But do they not wanna walk because the sidewalks aren't great? Or

what do you think they're, like, they're, walking like adjacent to loud vehicles that are emitting stinky things. I mean, it's a less pleasant place to ride or to walk. People will do it if they have to and if that's where the bus stop is, they'll certainly walk along those streets. And we do what we can to make those facilities and to make those sidewalks more pleasant to walk on certainly. That's why we have the standards that we have for arterials.

But generally speaking, when people are choosing to walk a place, like if you're going to a destination, you'll walk to that destination and you'll take the most direct path. But if you are walking for recreation, you will avoid those streets. So there's there's some subtlety there.

Okay. So it feels like maybe trapped then if you feel like that is not do you oh, is that, like, is that do you have, like, a road master? Like, is that a a book that you guys or do you have a spreadsheet of all the the ADTs for City of Olympia?

We we have the data in our GIS.

Alright. Is that available online?

Not publicly available. We could certainly provide it to you in a really big hideous table if you're interested.

Yep. That sounds good. I like really big hideous tables. Okay. So I'm just trying to think because, like, you have this issue where, like, everyone is, like, common destinations and things like that. But other than, like, gross like, businesses, like, grouping specifically, like, you don't really have a good idea of, like, where people are going. That's tough. Okay. That's it for now. Thank you, Michelle.

Aaron? Yeah. Thanks. I I just have a quick question about the contractor versus, the employee team dynamic. My experience, I've never done sidewalks at that scale.

I've done a little concrete work and and some other stuff for residential use, but I know you spoke to how you I heard you speak to how you came to the 20 to 25 panels per year. I'm curious, like, if the city was hiring a contractor, you can get clear on performance and timelines, and you can negotiate those details much more contractually. If we're hiring a city crew, what incentive structure do they have to increase their speed or meet certain metrics of success? How do we I'm I'm thinking about fiduciary responsibility for taxpayer money in this regard. So what

It's a great question. Yeah. You know, it's outside of my and Max's, realm of expertise. We don't work in the, in the operations, department, So, I'm not really able to to answer that question. Well, again, we'll know more after after the first year.

Yeah. Okay. Cool.

David?

Sorry. I actually forgot my original question because we were talking about test patients. Michelle, the 3,000,000 the estimated $3,000,000 that the TBD brings in, Other than the fact that, like, that hit money has, like, been slated for capital projects, is there any other restriction from using that money on sidewalk repair, like,

the noncapital sidewalk repair? So it hasn't been slated for capital projects. It's slated for pedestrian, bike, and active transportation projects. And so if it goes you know, every dollar that goes to sidewalk repair is a dollar that's not going to bike repair or bike projects, for example.

But those are also still capital projects, like the bike and they're all capital projects. Okay. Yeah. So there's no it's just a trade off of, like, do you want new infrastructure or upgraded infrastructure versus repairs?

Well, I'm not sure I understand how you're framing this. I think there's one way if I may, there's a piece of information that, you know, you're talking about capital projects and this difference is probably not important to, like, anybody other than me. But, the crew, I do believe the crew is going to be paid out of the operating budget. The transportation benefit district, funding, I think is actually going part of it is gonna actually be going to the operating budget. I'm not a 100% sure of that, so please don't quote me on it.

But it's earmarked for pedestrian bike and active transportation projects. It doesn't necessarily have to come out of the capital budget, which is the CFP that you review every year. So thank you for letting me interrupt. I'm sorry.

Okay. Sorry. I'm just trying to understand. So there's so, like, certain funds are restricted. Like, what sometimes, like, you get money, and it can only be used on something that is a capital project and not operating. So the $3,000,000 that the TBD brings in estimated has no restrictions on whether it can be used for operating or capital projects. To my knowledge, no. Okay. That's what I that's what I was trying to, like, ask. I was just trying to figure out, like so, like, when we talk about $3,000,000 and do we spend it on building a new bike lane somewhere versus, like, spending it on operating cost to fix sidewalk? Like, that's a discussion that can be had because that money can, like, be moved around, But then we just have to understand that then you don't get the bike lane.

Correct. Yes. Thank you. Yes. Awesome framing. Thank you.

And is that is the you could use you talked about where it sounds like we're we're contracting when we're going with a full block face, but you could, in theory, use, city staff to do a full block face. It's just the capacity we have to do that isn't isn't there currently.

Yeah.

Other questions from folks?

I just have one little comment for whatever it's worth. I personally agree with the community that was shared about small residential homeowners, small property owners not being responsible for the cost of lateral repair. I mean, the time the time and cost to manage to find bid and manage a project like that is the the norm. And so I yeah. That's my my personal opinion. I I agree with that sentiment that they said he should be responsible for sidewalks in the public right away. Do

you, Michelle or Max, do you have a a rough number for how much, probably, like, per foot of a sidewalk contract cost? Seems like you did two two block faces for about 500,000. Right? So it's it would be a big chunk of money for any any property owner to foot if if, like, enforcement got ramped up.

It's super variable. In 2023, when I was doing, the research on the policy options, I did call some contractors who had worked, recently in the city, and I got numbers between 3 to $10,000. It just really varies based on the linear number of linear feet, whether there's trees involved, whether, you know, there's street trees that require an arborist, whether they're not, you know, the trees and private property. I mean, it's just super, super variable.

Yep. Yeah. Whether it's panel bump to a driveway or else that that transition can can be more complicated. Yeah. There seems variability there. That sounds about right to me. By contracting experience, three to 10 for the that you're talking to. Were you getting per sidewalk panel or per job, or what was the metric to that?

For the full repair. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt.

Yeah. Cool. Thanks. I think that's that's what's good to keep in mind.

And then I I asked this before, Michelle, but do you have do you have any idea of how much sidewalk repair or replacement is happening with, like, frontage improvements in during development?

Yeah. This is a great question. And, for the benefit of everyone else, Greg emailed me, this question, earlier today. And the short answer is we don't really have a handle on it. We do, update our inventory, on an annual basis, from, what we call the as builts.

So, which is probably more information than you need, but what, as builts are the, the, plans that get submitted by developers. And, so, on an annual basis, we update the city records of all kinds of things that get added to the city from new development. That does include the sidewalks. But we don't really record like the year that they get pulled into the city. So, we're not really able to track at this point, like, how many new side new linear miles or linear feet of sidewalks get added every year, through that method.

We do track, the city capital projects because, of course, we have a better handle on that, because for lots of reasons. And but in terms of what's what's added from, frontage improvements, we we we just don't really have a way of of, tracking that other than that we do know that our sidewalk, inventory is growing every year.

Dana?

I think someone actually got a question. So the locations that the progress is based upon, the historical data of how much how many repairs can be completed, Those are all pretty much locations with street trees. Correct? Because it's the city right now only maintain sidewalks with the street tree corridor? Yeah.

That's a great question. Mostly, yes. We do also fix places where there's been a claim for a trip and fall. So not all, but mostly. Yeah. Would you agree, Max?

Yeah. I would I've only that just simply a trip and fall,

like an incident of a

trip and fall regardless of if there's

a claim attached to it.

Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

In your in your research on on different policies, the in, like, in Washington, what sort of funding sources you know, we have the transportation benefit district. What other funding sources are are folks using to support sidewalk maintenance?

Oh, boy. Mostly, they're not.

Yeah.

You know? Truly. There was an interesting case with the city of Auburn in which they would, do repair in a certain neighborhood and homeowners could buy into the contract. It was a really administratively unwieldy way of doing things, and I'm kind of wondering if there's a different way of doing it. One of the weird things they learned that that really stuck with me, is that they had to get an agreement from the property owner that they could fix the sidewalk, and then they had to attach the agreement to the title of the property because of the property changed hands while they between the time that they got the agreement and the time they went out there to fix the sidewalk, they no longer had permission to fix the sidewalk and to collect the funding to collect the money to do it.

So, was seems to me like there's got to be another way of doing it, and they could only do like like 10 to 14 sites per year under that model and they had somebody pretty much doing it full time. Like, that was their full time job was just managing that. And there may be some other ways. Max, are you can you think of anything?

Well, I I, I do have the table, or I guess it's a chart that the executive summary for the JTC report.

Do you wanna say what JTC is short for?

Yeah. The Joint Transportation Committee.

This is that legislative effort to look into things? Fantastic.

Yeah. So just one moment while I get a screen share going. I I get to do the awkward part here.

Here's a real answer rather than my fumbling. Thank you, Max. Mhmm.

Can everyone see my screen?

Yep.

Interesting.

So the the transportation benefit district is, I think, mostly sales tax and some car tabs. Right? Yeah.

Car tabs, we spend on payment.

Yeah.

So the the TBD sales tax is, what we're spending.

Mhmm. And then the I'm trying to think of things that aren't just like, a late comer fee, is that just there's essentially a bill waiting for you if you develop along a street or something like that?

I'm not sure.

Because one one, go ahead, Zaynab, before

I Yeah. So from what I recall from water and sewer world, yes. So you build it, and then the the if you come in and develop later in Connect, you have to pay back the cost that it took to build the infrastructure. I think when you're looking at this list, like, the local improvement district, the lid, and the transportation levy are probably, like, the only things given that we kind of have everything else Yes. That would be available.

I think one of the things that's important about this source is that it also includes, building new sidewalks, not just for sidewalk repair. And we we use all of this for building new sidewalks except, let me let's say we use grants. I don't know about gas tax. Not sure about that. Sometimes we've used REIT. We definitely use impact fees. Fee in lieu, occasionally. Not the car tabs. We just started with the sales tax. That's the new revenue we started collecting in 2024.

We don't do LIDs, and we don't have a voter approved transportation levy, but we do have the well, you might this this actually might be us. We have the oh, my gosh. What's it called? The, voter approved, utility taxes on private utilities, which brings in, about a million dollars a year for, new sidewalks.

Because when when when I was thinking about, possible funding, if there if there were call them, hybrid sidewalk tree stormwater projects. I don't it's it's a bummer to have to demonize the trees when we're talking about sidewalks, when they do so many positive things. But one of those things is is soaking up stormwater where we have a utility. And I'm I was wondering if there are is there any example of, like, a a storm water project that also had to either repair or replace or build, I suppose, sidewalks?

Actually, there is an example of a sewer project downtown that we're it's not at all unusual for us to join up with the utilities. Mhmm. And this just jumped to mind, and I'm not super clear on how this is working out, but we're doing a joint project with them where they're rebuilding part of the streets and part of the sidewalks, but we're we're doing the curb ramps because they're tearing it up. And it's a little bit more than the scope of their project, so we'll do the curb ramps, and that's on, 4th Avenue. I believe the public outreach says big hole, bad traffic all summer, so sorry, if I remember correctly.

So be aware of that. So, I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but we definitely I know we have.

Michelle, was the the Brown Avenue, project? Was there a sidewalk installed as part of that project?

No. Do you recall? Okay. No. There wasn't on that one. We did a sidewalk there about twenty years ago, though. And, you know, I I hate to sound like I'm demonizing trees. And if if I sound that way, I'm doing it wrong because we really value trees. Trees are super important for the pedestrian sphere and the pedestrian realm. They make walking a lot more pleasant than, you know, especially as we're facing, a hotter climate.

They're they're just crucial, for shade. Not only that, but, trees that are adjacent to the street provide friction to drivers that, you know, encloses the visual, the cone of vision, it's called, and that, encourages drivers drivers to drive slower and that is also crucial for safety and, is very important. We see trees as the only asset that appreciates over time. And we see them as being a really important part of our strategy, for confronting climate change. So, if I've sounded like I'm demonizing trees, I'm definitely communicating incorrectly.

They are assets. They need to be managed. They need to be managed with sidewalks, and we all need to work together, trees and concrete together. We need trees more than they need us.

Saying demonizing is probably flipping on my part. I do not think you were demonizing trees, but their roots and sidewalks are a tough team toward together.

Indeed.

But I was I was thinking that's another place where you could if you had a a joint project as you're talking about, maybe there's some some efficiencies to have some stormwater treatment that's a a swale or a a, you know, neighborhood rain garden or something that gets more space for trees and then is a good time to replace or or repair a bunch of sidewalks that have been damaged.

Yeah. And if you'll if you'll forgive me, and I'm sorry. I'm rambling a little bit, and I I see that, that, commissioner Najati has her hand raised. So, thank you for the hand wave there. We do have, and we some examples of low impact development and we just show a photo of that in the story map where we have incorporated green stormwater infrastructure, and we do look for ways to do that. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention that, our colleagues, in the stormwater department are, going to be, creating an urban. Well, what's it called, Max? Urban forest management plan, I think.

Plan. Yeah.

Thank you. And it they're they just got the funding for it, and then it'll just be getting off the ground. And and, it's kind of unfair for me to even mention it at this point because they're just getting started on it. We will be one of their stakeholders. And, a lot of these issues, I think we're gonna be teasing out more in the policy conversation, these these policy sort of, conflicts. And, yes, there are opportunities to collaborate better for sure. Thank you for letting me ramble.

Yep. No. Thank you. Good information.

Okay. So, Greg, so the original things like policy question, like, what are we thinking. Right?

Yep.

So I, in general, don't believe that property owners should be responsible for maintaining the sidewalks. They are part of the transportation network. We don't ask people to maintain the streets in front of their house. We shouldn't be asking them to maintain the sidewalks. And then I think there's this other issue where, like, yes, trees are important.

And I love trees, but also, like, it seems a little bit cruel to be like, we still you still have to have trees here and fix your sidewalk. And then in fifteen years, if you still live here, you're gonna have to pay to have your sidewalk fixed again because the trees that we made you have there are uplifting the panel again. Like, it's just kind of it keeps going. Like, I understand the city has no money. That's, like, a a separate issue.

It's like, how do you pay for this thing when you already can't pay to maintain the streets? Because, like, my starting point is, like, I I I don't think that should be a property owner's responsibility. Like, I I could be convinced in light of, like, the city's financial difficulties that, like, large commercial property owners, like, mall, for example, should be responsible for maintaining the sidewalks in front of their property. But I don't think, like, the average homeowner should be responsible for for doing that. Or or, you know, the duplex owner because that cost gets passed on to their residence. I just wanted to, like, say something because, like, we keep asking questions, so we don't know

if we get to, like, recall. I'd be curious to hear other commissioners' take on that. I I tend to agree. And even with the large property owner thinking about passing on you know, a lot of these costs would get passed on. Maybe the the large apartment owner has more resources to be able to deal with that, but they are probably going to pass that on to rent. And so then we're then we're saying, like, folks that rent are gonna be paying for sidewalks and not people that own. It starts to feel a little a little icky to me. But go ahead, Daniel. I

was gonna say I agree with pretty much everything you said, Zainab. Like, again, back to the policy question of, like, what should the policy recommendation be or, like, what should the planning commission's, like, recommendation letter say? I agree with all the things you said. One caveat or, like, one, I guess, different way of one thing that you said about, like, street trees is that, I guess, would say that I've also been to there's, like even here in Olympia, there's some street trees that don't uplift the sidewalk. Or, like, I just me and my partner this weekend, we were just in Victoria, British Columbia for a weekend trip, and there were a lot of different trees there that didn't seem to have any there are big gigantic trees that, you know, clearly were there for, like, multiple years or, like, decades even and did not have uplifted sidewalks.

So I guess I would just say that, like, I also think it's just, the type of tree, which it sounds like they mentioned, like, the urban forestry manual. It sounds like there's, like, gonna be other policies that allude that, like, are separate but, like, related. So I guess that's just one thing I would say is that, like, I think that we should fully support street trees and fully support a good urban forestry manual that looks at tree street trees that don't uplift sidewalks.

Hello?

Yeah. I think that Zana was bringing up some really great points, and this is all very organized, and then I the report had a lot of information. So thank you. I was wondering if there's any kind of support or donation collection organization, like a Friends of Sidewalks organization, like Friends of the Library kind of that would bring in money in order to be able to speed up this process. Or is there a nonprofit that you're able to or that you are currently working with?

Simply. Because she was Zena was asking about resources.

No. There is not.

Okay. And so no structure for that to happen. Is that something that could be explored to address the small property owner limitations?

Certainly.

That's my thought.

Yeah. It's it's, because the other I mean, it's don't think we use it all that often, but the the fee in lieu supposedly would collect some money that you could maybe combine with support, something like that. But, Aaron?

Yeah. Thanks. I just wanna, expand on a property owners not needing to be responsible for any loss or, in repair of the sidewalk. I think about back in relationship

with this You're breaking up just a little bit, Aaron.

Oh, damn. Okay. I think it should extend to I think that should extend to all. I mean, you were just talking about apartment complexes and and renters and and and gets passed off. I think the same could be true for the struggling business community and and all the commercial properties.

I wonder the property owners, if it's fair or responsible for any property owners to actually be responsible for, covering cost of the public right away, public infrastructure, sidewalks. Just a thought I've been having on that.

Yep. Thanks. Yeah. Now I'm gonna I'm gonna show not being quite, one of the one of the other key policy points Zaynim, go ahead.

Sorry. I just wanted to ask Michelle real quick because you brought up the fee in lieu. Michelle, the fee in lieu money, that can only be used for constructing new sidewalks. Correct? Or can it also be used for sidewalk repair? It doesn't you don't collect that much money in a year.

You you know, the fee in lieu program is administered by our planning department, and I am pretty ignorant of, how it works. But my understanding is it is funding that is collected in lieu of frontage improvements, along new development, and it is used to construct a new sidewalk in another location where, nearby where it makes more sense in order to continue the sidewalk network so that you don't have, like, an orphaned sidewalk in front of somebody's house. Does that make sense?

Yep.

Okay. And then as long as they

have you, inner city sidewalk repair.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I just wanna make sure that Yeah. We weren't, like, mixing funding buckets because that is, like, oh, so important in Washington State. There's too many restrictions. The inner city transit and the school district both have money for sidewalks. The current funding for both capital and, like, operating, does it consider any, like, partnerships with either one of those entities to fund either new sidewalks or sidewalk repair?

So regarding the funding from the school district, that the school district, as I understand it, not in the most recent levy, technology levy, but the previous technology and safety levy, which was more than six years ago, did contain, $2,000,000, for, funding to I'm not sure exactly what it was for, but I believe it was something to make it easier for kids to walk and bike to school. And so, we have had conversations with the school district on ways that they could do that, because, of course, however they would do that would be within the public right of way. We are the keepers of the public right of way. In terms of funding from intercity transit, intercity transit has been improving bus stops in, you know, lots of bus stops, of course, and that often includes improving the concrete adjacent to the bus stop. To my knowledge, they have not been fixing sidewalks, and we haven't had any formal conversations with them about doing that.

We do have a very strong working relationship with them and so I believe I would have heard about that if that were the case.

Greg, am I misremembering from the last Michelle, am I misremembering from the last meeting? I thought the Spencer mentioned that now that they have switched for like, they're done with the service change, they were gonna start working on sidewalks aside from the bus stop improvements that they've just been doing.

Yeah. I think there was it was a a a nascent project, but there was there was interest in IT to, you know, kinda, like, find a little bit more of the walk shed in places that were, like, high value improvements, but I don't think it had, like, rolled out much yet. So

That's my recollection as well. It wasn't necessarily that they had an active program for it. And and what Spencer discussed was where they were looking at extending sidewalks was really where there was no accessibility or where there were accessibility issues. So it wasn't extending sidewalks across a block, it was really extending sidewalk to a bus stops to ensure that somebody that had different mobility would be able to utilize the service.

Well and in terms of nascent conversations, we have had nascent conversations with them about this, but I would not discuss that publicly.

Yeah.

Anyway, a potential partner in the future. As far as policy recommendations, the the survey had had kind of the black and white between walkable destinations or or destinations to be well served by sidewalks being improved and the quarters slash downtown arterials. In your in the staff report, and I think it maybe came up in some of the public comments, there's also this kinda worst first, idea. I'm thinking of these as, like, endpoints of possible kind of prioritizations. I'm wondering if there's either Michelle or Max, if you have other or anyone else, other kinda, like, broad scale policy, high level policy kinda vertices on that, what is now a triangle, and maybe we can make a stop sign or something.

I wasn't I'm not sure I'm picturing the triangle. I'm I'm not

sure up. One vertices would be worse first. We just take that take the sidewalk condition report, and we find the worst one. We just work our way down. One of them being doing the arterials and the and that includes a lot of downtown. The other one being the, kind of a more spatially distributed set of of prime locations that we we would kinda work out from, I assume. Got it. Yeah.

Well, I think, you know, the, the piece of information here that is is really important is the responsibility that we have under the Americans with Disabilities Act. And, ADA defines any sidewalk lift higher than a quarter inch as being a barrier to accessibility. And, in our inventory, the inventory, was looking for lifts of a half an inch or higher. So by definition, every single sidewalk lift, in our inventory is a barrier to accessibility. So that raises the question.

If they're all barriers, you know, if it's if it's like a binary, then, you know, does worst first, is that really, does it really make sense if, if they're all barriers. Right? And then there's also the practical standpoint that, you know, for a lot of people with mobility aids, many people are able to traverse a barrier that is maybe three quarters of an inch, but not one that is three inches. Right? So, you know, how do you split that up?

How do you decide? And how do you prioritize? These are really tough questions and these are council level questions to try to to try to figure out for sure. Max, I saw your box light up. Did you have something you wanted to add?

No.

Were just

I'm not sure how how I lit my

box up. Sorry for that.

You were clicking away. That's I guess that's all I have to say in terms of the worst first axe axis. What was the word? Vert vertex.

Verti verti. Yeah. Yeah.

Vertex, I believe,

is

the singular. Yeah.

Yeah. I thought you made a a good in your staff report, made a good case against the the worst first is kind of your your guiding light. You you really wanna take into account, where people are going, and seems like the best data we have on that minus some some of the IT data and some spot checks is just that we know where there are destinations that are going to be popular, walking or or rolling destinations. And so kinda working from those is is, like, a way to prioritize people trips, not just, the worst sidewalks, I guess.

Popular or necessary?

Yeah. Fair enough. Dana?

Okay. So the other thing that I'm thinking of, Greg, is, like, is one crew, given how little they can do in a year based upon historical data, which granted, like, could be because of street cheese making things so complicated. Is that enough to make meaningful progress in a year? And then if not, then is the trade off between new infrastructure, new and improved bicycling and walking infrastructure, is that trade off worth it to suggest that more money be spent on sidewalk maintenance instead of new stuff? I don't know if anyone else has thoughts on that.

Yeah. What what other folks think? Go ahead, Daniel.

I mean, I feel like this is, like, the big question. It's like, I I think the one crew is enough to make some progress, but I think the bigger question is how you prioritize those sites and those locations. Like, I can think of there's, like, one intersection I'm thinking of again and again in this conversation. It's downtown right by Underhill Plants and, like, that post office, I think it is, like, kinda by the transit center, and it is, like, literally, like, cracking apart. Like, it is really bad.

I don't know if you guys know what intersection we're talking about, but it's, like, really bad. Like, I don't think somebody could just, like, roll over it and just be inconvenient. Like, it's like you cannot pass there. So, anyway, I guess my point is to say, like, I think one crew is enough, and fixing that one sidewalk is one location, but would be massively beneficial because it's downtown. It's extremely bad, and I think that a lot of people would notice it.

But I think that it's I think that it's gonna come down more to that where I think you could fix a lot of places downtown, but then people in the suburbs are gonna feel left out and feel like, well, why aren't they fixing, you know, the places on my street? And I would feel the same way if a bunch of sidewalks in the suburbs are fixed, but I'm walking downtown and I see a bunch of uplifts. I think that it's, like, a game of, like, where the sidewalk crew, don't think is the issue. I think it's a question of, like, public perception of, like, if you fix, like, half in downtown and half in the suburbs, that's gonna be fair, but maybe it's not gonna, like, make anybody happy. But if you fix them all downtown and none in the suburbs, the suburbs are gonna feel like they're left out.

So I think it's more a game of public perception.

Yeah. I think go ahead, Zander.

It's the the unfun thing about being chair, Greg. You gotta wait till the end.

Yeah. So

I think I think there is a little bit of, like, history too here that's, like, need to, like, understand that the individuals who have really been pushing for more sidewalk funding and really coming to the planning commission, like, speaking out and really, you know, putting pressure on to make this happen, have lived in the suburbs, like, the suburbs, which are not really suburbs. And much like kinda like Timberland Library, like, having so many libraries so far out that, like, you know, some of them don't get a lot of, like, access, it's important that people see some benefit so that they maintain the support for things that, you know, they pay money into. And so I guess I agree that downtown needs a lot of work, but I don't know that downtown is the only place that, like, should see work done.

And did not just to be clear, did not say that downtown is the only place that should get work done. I'm saying that that's a very visible location. So if you fix one location, a lot more people will see it than a street that only people are driving to if they live on that street. Did not say that only downtown should get. I'm saying that downtown is a lot more visible, so the impact of a change is a lot more visible.

Oh, that totally rings Michelle, everyone loves signs. Do you guys do any sort of, like, signage or anything after you do these improvements to, like, explain where the funding comes from? We don't. I think you need a good sign. Just, like, stick one on, like, just a little, like, paper plastic and just, like, zip tie it to the nearest light pole. Like, this was funded through your, like, sales tax dollars. Like, I think that would really help. Like It's a great idea. It's funny, but also yeah.

I want, like, the sandwich board signs, you know, not in the way of the sidewalk, of course. So one I think they're they're, like, geod I mean, it's the same problem that the transit has in some cases too. Right? You have some amount of coverage where you you have these repairs and enough, like, geographies around the city that people see it and feel close to home. And then, you know, some of the, like, prime, most visible, most impactful places are gonna be downtown.

I don't know how other folks feel, but I I think we're we're, like, in a really painful cutting right next to the bone point with just one crew where we're only doing you know, for a hundred and two years of work is too long in my mind, whereas, maybe we can be more visible and impactful at kind of a rate that people feel and and benefit from. I think they will benefit from anything we do, which is awesome, and have already benefited from the work that's been done. That's always nice to see those sidewalks, that have been repaired and and the block faces that have been fixed. But it does seem like we we need more of it, and the prioritization feels feels like we're, like, very, very thin even to we're just not gonna be getting enough done, with just one crew. But go ahead, Zaynab.

Okay. So I agree. I don't think we're getting enough done with one crew, which is why I, like, set up. I think I'm okay personally with the trade off of if we don't get new stuff because we wanna fix the stuff that we currently have. You know, everyone likes the shiny gold scissors, but, like, I want fright new sidewalks.

And I wonder if, like, the second crew, given, like, the issues of, like, it's it just takes so long per site when there are street trees there. Like, I wonder if you have you suggest a second crew and just have that second crew do the low severity sites and see how, like, get data from, like, a year of, like, how many sites could you knock out. And maybe that's a way to, like, make faster faster progress potentially. But, also, like, I guess, I the prioritization of, like, pedestrian destinations, like, I I think that is really important.

Yeah. Like, a lot of those as I think Michelle mentioned, a lot of those destinations are gonna be on the arterials too. Right? So it's the kind of destination approach is not throwing out the arterials or downtown or or anything. Go ahead, Daniel.

But I suggest that we start putting down some of these on paper. I've been trying to keep, like, a track in my head, but I'm wondering thank you, Casey. I see you're sharing screen. I should have known you were doing that. That is good, Casey. I guess I was just gonna say, can we also because it is 8PM. I was gonna say, if anybody doesn't have questions for Michelle and Max, thank you for the presentation, but also I'd love to give you your evening back. So as I say, if we're done with questions and more on the policy discussion, could we move on to that and let Michelle and Max have the rest of their evening?

I would like to hold on to Michelle and Max for, like, I don't know, ten more minutes as we flush out the first round of the points and then

I tried, guys. I tried to let them go, and the chair has rules with an iron fist.

Yeah. That's right. One one as as long as we're talking questions that I think fit into getting some bullet points down, there's a a part in the response to the comments about staff not have or, basically, the city not having capacity to, like, train homeowners home it must be after eight. Train homeowners and, like, fixing the sidewalks. I remember in the report that a a big issue was also overgrown vegetation.

Has there been any discussion? I was thinking of it in the in terms of, you know, some cities pay folks for snow removal at, you know, during emergency storms and things like that. Has there been any, thought of things like that that are, like, not construction, helping organize or or, you know, different ways to get something like the vegetation trim back, which is a a pretty low bar to make something possible that isn't.

Is that a question?

Yeah. Yeah.

In the past, we have occasionally, tried to organize work parties with with neighborhoods, and, with our waste resources, crew, but we don't have capacity to do that.

Okay.

But we are usually pretty successful, with vegetation, complaints in, sending letters to property owners because it's something that's pretty pretty doable for most people to take care of.

And did those did those work parties work?

Yeah. They did. But in terms of, like, juice for the squeeze

Yeah.

You know, No. Not in our current environment.

So relatively high staff time for

Yeah.

For kind of the payback? Okay. Mhmm. Cool. Thank you.

So on on the policy notes in the letter, seems like for commissioners that are are here, we're relatively aligned on homeowners not being homeowners or property owners next to the sidewalk. Should not be the prime entity responsible for the sidewalks. Speak up now if that's something you wanna speak against.

Real quick, Jared. I just wanna make sure there was some discussion on whether that extends to commercial properties or I just wanna make sure that I'm capturing this correctly that Yeah. Homeowners specifically should not be responsible. I just put this in parentheses for for your I I I assume you'll take kind of a first crack at at drafting something more directly. So I'm just putting that in parentheses for kind of your your sake and consideration. And then I otherwise, I just wanna make sure that this is capturing the discussion, and I think you were kinda going down the line.

So Yeah. I was gonna run through it and see if if we can shake anything loose. But but first, Aaron?

Yep. I think on that point, we should be consistent. I don't I think it's a slippery dangerous slope to differentiate between different types of property owners, whether it's multifamily, single, and, you know, do each in the duplex versus single or, you know, fourplex. What if they have ADUs? Is that crossing the bat?

I I think it's dangerous slippery slope to even draw that line in the first place. And I think the stat I I believe the standard should be just cities are responsible for sidewalks. The public seem to be much more public entity than private. So I would vote on that direction. Yeah.

I tend to lean that way too. Do do other people feel strongly about splitting it up? Go ahead, Al.

Yeah. I was just quickly trying to find this reference again from where I was going over some of the comments that were sent in, and one was referencing a study. I think it was by Shell, but there was there's something like that. It was in another city that showed that it was effective to have the property owner when they sold the property then repair the sidewalk at that point. And so if that's effective, I don't want to just, you know, make it a wash. I wanna know more about that. So

Yeah. It's a good point.

Yeah. I

I could see that being effective to solve the sidewalk problem. I think it would come with, obviously, cost problems for the market. I think that would there there'd be some other issues that would spawn from that. I'd be interested to read that study to see if they address that or what they show there. It's interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that that should be explored.

Great. Yeah. One of the, potential drawbacks I was I was pondering is if someone, say, planted a tree on their property and those roots came across, you would need language to, you know, try to make that the responsibility of the property owners. But, hopefully, that's a a rarer case than than everywhere. Okay.

Second bullet point is concerns regarding street trees and placement, design and and protect trees, prevent uplift. It sounds like we've up like, the the kind of, engineering design of it all has been updated, and we're we're living with, what has been built before. Is that a a fair description of it, Michelle?

I'm sorry. I was my brain was in the clouds. Can you read that one again?

Yeah. So the, like, the street trees being one of the the prime uplift culprits for sidewalks a lot, and and we've had, like, some severe cases of that in in new development, but it it sounds like a lot of that, kinda engineering has been done and improved to to avoid, you know, at least the worst cases of those in

I hope so.

Okay.

You know, a lot of this is honestly outside of my area of expertise. And, from what we have learned, a lot of this issue has to do with our soil. Soils here are challenging. You know, we were right at the edge of where the ice, where the glacier was when, it was retreating during the last ice age. So, I heard, mention of Victoria earlier and the soils are very, very different than what they are, here.

So, soil is a big factor and there's a lot of places where it's on fill. You'll see, you know, some blocks where like some trees are not pushing up sidewalks and then you'll walk a block and the same trees are pushing up sidewalks. So, there's just a lot of x factor. So, I'm not really comfortable weighing in on that. But we've done our best and in conversations with the city's urban forester, it sounds like there are some opportunities perhaps with the street tree list that, she'd like to explore. But, again, all of that is is coming as part of the urban forestry management plan.

Great. Thank you. I guess as a policy, Greg, if we're trying to look for something to say, I would say, like, we could we maintain or even expand the tree canopy cover? Because I think that that's, like, at least something more of, like, a policy to point to. I think that there's, a I don't Michelle or Mac, city staff, if somebody knows, like, there's, like, gonna it's like, we aim for 30%, but currently, we're at, like, 40%. There's, like, some anyway, we're we're meeting it now, but I guess just as a policy to point to, that would be good, I think, to mention.

Yeah. So just mentioning the like, that we have a canopy cover and that trees are indeed part of walkability for for the sidewalks and streets. And then the so the next bullet point is the I think it's just exploring grants, and this is more focused on kind of the nonprofit community resources to help neighborhoods with sidewalk repairs. Al, I think you brought this up. This is the idea just being that there's, you know, maybe kind of more philanthropic resources so that we don't burden somebody

over there. Idea is that if we don't have enough resources, there are different methods of funding that are used in other places. So what is available or what can be built?

Yep. Great. Go ahead, Daniel. Can counts

can recognize neighborhood associations through the neighborhood matching grant program apply for grants to get to repair sidewalks?

Sorry. I I don't believe so. I'd have to double check, but I believe that has been explored in the I I wanna say the short answer is no, but I'll take note of that and follow-up.

I also think the answer is no, but I just I guess I would love to know if there's, like, a specific reason why not. Because I guess I'm just thinking, like, when I think of a nonprofit or community resource, like, for this bullet point, my mind immediately goes to council neighborhood associations because the city already knows who they are. They know the people who are involved with them, and there's already a matching grant program to disperse funds. So, like, I feel like there could be some, like, policy there of, like, if the neighborhood association puts up half the money and the city puts up half the money, that's cutting the cost in half, and then it's delivering relief to neighborhoods who, in theory, are gonna tell you about the worst repairs that they see. And there also might be, like, a sorting process there of, like, you know, they don't have infinite money, but if they can raise a thousand dollars to fix the worst sidewalks in their neighborhood.

I guess I'm just like, as of like, I I I think that this is a really good policy, a good policy point, and I'm just trying to expand on it of, like, would the council neighborhood associations be the entity? And if not, why not?

Great. Alright. Then site prioritization, it seemed like there's oh, I guess I for this, I would would ask whether folks in this the trade off that Zana was, illuminating between new infrastructure and maintaining what we have even if it's in the the pot of bikes and ped. And then the, it seemed like people were leaning towards pedestrian pedestrian destinations as one of the suggestions versus their arterials, but I would ask for any thoughts or expansion on that.

Greg, tell me what you mean when you mean pedestrian destinations versus arterials. Because for

Well, there's there's a map. Yeah. The map was basically places people might walk or roll to. And then right now, it's more quarter based than the the downtown arterials. It makes it I feel like it makes it look like we'd be, and I also think many of the written in things are like, how do we make a hybrid of this and and, mix and match?

So I think there's, doesn't have to be that black and white between those two, and though I think there's a lot of overlap between them anyway. Is that a fair is that a fair, description of that, Michelle? I know the the setup for that is like, there is overlap in in, like, the sidewalks that would be targeted between those two options, but you'd be prioritizing slightly differently.

I'm so sorry, Craig. You have to run that past me again.

So just this the difference between destination as a priority versus the current kind of arterial prioritization that the destination wouldn't, you know, give up on downtown or something like that because many of the destinations are still there. So it's right.

Yes. That is correct. Absolutely. There's a lot of overlap, actually.

Great. Yeah. So maybe the distinction is, seems like people are leaning toward destination, but maybe the distinction is is narrow for for our purposes right now.

Yeah. And, as a reminder, you if you're curious about, you know, where those breakdown, they're in the story map. You you can look at a a map of the street tree corridors, scroll, and then there's a map of the destinations. And you can flip between the two, and you can just clearly see the differences and the similarities, more importantly.

Yep.

And I guess once once, Michelle and Max, you all got a little more direction from council, you could make that same map, but it would be like, these are the sidewalks we're gonna start with and and work down.

Yes.

With the consultant. Yeah.

Mhmm.

Great. Yeah. And then addressing adjacent vegetation or other factors, contributing sidewalk disrepair. Casey, maybe you can clarify what

Yeah. I'm not sure who specifically was suggesting that now, but, basically talking about if you have, say, like, a private property owner that has a lot of not street trees, but on their private property, they have trees or any sort of growing shrubs that would cause lift or any sort of activity on the private property that is actually degrading the sidewalk. So trying to address those off right of way issues that are, causing a sidewalk to fall into disrepair.

Got it. Okay. Yeah. I think that's, similar to if we if we're recommending to take most of the responsibility on as a city, we wanna make sure we leave the, ability to address the the adjacent vegetation kind of damage coming from private property. The tree canopy, we can definitely note. Is there any other any other big bullet points people wanna add? And then I would actually try to, let Michelle and Max go if not.

Greg, I don't need Michelle and Max to be here for it. So

Well, okay. Before before that then, Zaneb, thank you very much, Michelle and Max, for sticking it out, and we appreciate the the update. Thanks very much. Yeah. Good night, guys. Go ahead, Zach.

Okay. So I think the adjusting addressing adjacent vegetation or other factors, I think you should be more specific, and it's more, like, more proactive code enforcement for vegetation, like, covering sidewalks. Because I think similar, like, I I'm remembering back to oh my gosh. I don't remember his name right now. The commissioner Hannah, where he was you know, like, he brought up I'm like, I could picture the dog.

Yeah. His dog, but I couldn't, like, remember his his name. Henning. Henning Henning was his name, the dog's name. And he brought up the fact that, like, it's unfair for people who are affected by, like, the, like, things like vegetation since he walks and takes the bus everywhere to, like, constantly be, like, hey. You need to fix this. Like, the city should probably take on, like, some like, a responsibility to, like, practically go out. Because the one thing that the staff mentioned was they were, like, we send letters to the homeowner. And, actually, I forgot to ask. So now I'm like, oh, man.

They looked. But there was no, like, follow-up to that. I don't know if you, both times, like, sidewalk repair was, we mailed a letter to the homeowner. And then, like it was, like, we've had good luck mailing letters to the homeowners. So but it wasn't clear that there was any follow-up done when, like, there wasn't any luck with just mailing the letter.

So I just wanted to, like, probably shed, like, slightly stronger language. And then the single crew sufficiently I think that should be a single crew does not sufficiently serve the community need. And then I just wanted to once again reiterate this idea where, like, we we just have, like, one crew going out for, like, the lower severity stuff to see how much that can produce, at least in, like, for the first year instead of like, I'm trying to think of, like, how do we how do we see how can we, like, maximize the benefit? And I'm thinking, like, benefit as in, like, miles of unobstructed sidewalk.

Mhmm.

Yep.

I would have no money.

Could

I maybe I agree to Zeynep's point about, like, return on investment, but I would say that I think instead of thinking about miles of sidewalk, I think we should think more about how many people use the sidewalk. Because, again, I think that there's gonna be a lot of sidewalks that are uplifted, but maybe are used by, you know, again, 10 or 20 people versus sidewalks that are used by thousands. And the return on investment is obviously a lot greater to make a thousand people's lives greater than 10 people's lives greater. So I think that I would rather think in terms of users and pedestrians than in terms of sidewalk miles.

Let me yes. So I'm thinking it would be, like, a second layer underneath. Like, it's like, you first, you prioritize, like, pedestrian destinations, and then, like, you find the, like, the low severity ones that, like, are there. You know? Because I'm thinking, like, you could do one like, if you're looking at pedestrian destination, like, you could do one really bad piece of sidewalk or you could do, like, three bad like, moderately bad pieces of sidewalk for, like, this that's that's the way I'm thinking about it.

Totally agree and totally hear you. I just wanna be careful what we tell city count if we're making a recommendation letter. I don't want them to think in terms of sidewalk miles. I want them to think in terms of pedestrians. Because I think that if we but to be blunt, I think that it would be a lot easier for city council to claim success if they're like, we fixed 20 miles of sidewalks. But if those 20 miles of sidewalks are used by not that many people, then I don't really feel like that's actually a success. I think that it'd be a bigger success to say, we fixed a smaller number of sidewalks, but more people will now get to use them.

So I think the issue here, Daniel, is that there there's no because they don't have they need to come up with some metric of, like, how they out, like, what is the benefit of fixing, like, this piece of sidewalk versus the other in terms of pedestrians. They don't actually have any data about how many people walk somewhere. So maybe it's, a heat map based off of, like, inner city transit bus stops or something like that.

So totally what I was thinking. I think the top three should be pedestrian destinations, transit, and grocery stores because I think that that's already kind of the direction that they're going. So I kinda think that those should be our top three, like, priority with like, noting, like, Zanub, like you said, the lack of data, I think it's pedestrian destinations, transit, and grocery stores. So, like, in my mind, it's like a flowchart of, like you know, it's like, no. It's like, is the sidewalk broken? Yes. Is it near transit? Stop. Is it, like, within a quarter mile of a transit? Stop. Yes. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's, I think, like, the decision tree that should get made personally, and so that's what I would advocate for.

I think lucky lucky for us, they already include both, transit stops and grocery stores in their destination priority. So

And and I noted that their definition of grocery store is

Mhmm.

Is somewhat limited there.

So Yeah.

Just a heads up there.

Yeah. I think, in in both your discussions, the idea of, like, unobstructed trips, and then there's a bit of a a wildcard and kind of the network effect of if you can connect two places that are separated from each other, you may get more bang for your buck, but that's in the details, I think.

Go ahead, Daniel. I also would advocate for another policy point of linking this up to the vacancy study that was just completed, and I would love to know how sidewalks impact or do not impact vacancy downtown. I know that that one is maybe more, like, maybe one that I think about, but I would love to see that because I do think that when you said, like, network effects, Greg, like, I do think that there is a very big connection between, like, shitty sidewalks downtown and people not wanting to go downtown, both customers and business owners. And so I do think that there is, like, a what it is, like, broken windows theory. Like, I do think that there is some amount of this going on where, like, shitty sidewalks downtown are making less people wanna go down there and open businesses down there.

But that's just me.

Yeah. I remember the well, I guess we haven't we haven't actually discussed the vacancy study here, but, yeah, the correlation between vacant places and and sidewalk condition would be interesting. Other folks have thoughts on on adding that to the letter? Go ahead, Al.

Sorry. Just on prioritization. Were schools included in pedestrian destination? Because I think they tend to be hubs for activity. Okay. Good.

Yep. Yep. They're definitely part of it. No. And, yeah, that's a great good one to have safe walking routes for.

Just for the hell of it. I'm I'm assuming parks are also destination in that destination list. Yeah.

I think so. We're you can definitely check the storyboard story map before that and add it if not. Alright. I'm, conscious that it's $8.35. One moment.

Could we add a sub under exploring grants, Casey, could we add a bullet specific to explore neighborhood associations? Because I do I do think that that's gonna be the entity, personally. I think that this is the point of neighborhood associations. If there are recognized neighborhood associations and they are able to apply for neighborhood matching grants, I think that that is the mechanism here to know what sidewalks are the worst in a community and what people, in theory, have the know how and the time to maybe get a neighborhood matching grant to try to get one. I think that that makes a lot of sense, and I would love to see city council explore that idea.

Anyone else have thoughts on that? I I tend to agree.

I have a separate thought.

Go ahead, Erin.

Is it, on the line that's about the transit stops in grocery stores? I think there was a detail that I think should be captured. I wonder if because before, it didn't sound like we were talking about prioritizing all transit stops, but what about the transit hotspots? And I think if we were if we had to prioritize, I think, the transit hotspots should be a little higher.

Yeah. I think that is something that we have some data on now, and we'll have more when when new routes are are up for a year or so. And I don't I'm not sure that was data that was included in this the story map. Right? So it's

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting time I mean, talking with Spencer last week or two weeks ago.

Yeah. Yeah. Many changes.

Yeah. Yeah. The big relationship between these two topics.

Yeah. Are there other bullet points folks wanna add? I think well, I'll give away some of the story. We're we're not gonna I think we won't have a meeting on the eighteenth before it goes to land use environment committee, though I I should be able to, share our thoughts broadly, then then you'll see a draft letter. I mean, you probably see a draft letter before that, but we can we can kinda fine tune it before it goes to to full council for a study session. Does that sound right, Casey, as far as schedules? I

was just looking at the dates. So I'm tracking May 28. This will go to land use and environment committee. And then from there, I think they're looking to propose more concrete policies to city council at a study session for July 21. So there's no full policy being proposed here.

So this is very much advising and shaping what policies to be drafted. So I I was kind of trying to think through, does this need a formal motion right now? I don't think so. I think drafting a letter, seeing where this kinda goes in Lanny's committee, and then also, I think if we want to have a formal motion to adopt a comment letter on upcoming proposals, we can certainly do that at

a

May, or even an early July meeting before it goes to the council study session on July 21. So to your point, no. We probably won't necessarily if you wanna adopt a formal comment letter, which I'm I'm on the fence whether you need a formal comment letter because there's no policy proposed yet. You're not Yeah. Recommending adoption of a formal policy. You're really just, trying to have talking points and considerations as they develop that. So, again, it's kind of a splitting hairs. I don't think there's necessarily a need for a motion. But if you want a motion, you probably won't have it by, you won't have it by the May 28, but you can certainly have it for the study session in July.

Yeah. I guess I I would probably promote propose that we do a full motion on it once we have a draft, and it'll be for the study session, but not for the land use. And if folks have brilliant thoughts between now and then, we can get those in there. Daniel?

Yeah. My question was just gonna be how to include the feedback from our commissioners who are not present tonight. Like, do we need does that change anything about doing, a full motion? I guess I just wanna make sure their input gets included as well.

Yeah. Well so I think we'll we'll make sure we we discuss it at the at another meeting. So, hopefully, you're there hear for that, and I'll send it around, and they can send me feedback as well via email.

Careful with that, chair.

I won't reply.

Yeah. That was my that was my question is knowing that we're not supposed to, like, have discussion over email. That was, like, my question. It's, like, how can we work on a letter if, like yeah.

Yeah. So I if I if I may, I think what what we can do from here is, chair, vice chair, you've got some time to work on a working draft. It will definitely come back before the planning commission well before, I think, the July for or twenty first meeting, I think, what it was.

Yep.

So I think, we can have that as an agenda item. We can include the draft comment letter. The other commissioners will certainly be able to see it, and and we can have the draft available prior to that meeting. So, we would just ask, those commissioners to read through that, consider this. Obviously, this is recorded. We can ask commissioners to take a look at the recording, but, that that would be kind of the process going forward. I would I would discourage direct feedback from the those commissioners until we reconvene, though.

Yeah. Sounds good. We'll keep it, as transparent as we can.

That makes sense. One other just question is, like, do we want to send it any earlier just to help shape the policy discussions? Because I guess that's my only concern with sending it once it does get to city council is it feels like then, like, the time for, like, input is kind of, like, somewhat past, and it feels like then it's, like, the more they're, like they're, like, looking more, like, policy options at that point. Is there any ability for us to send something earlier to be part of the discussion, like, land use versus full council?

Chair, if if you'd like, I can I can try to answer that?

Yeah. Sure.

I I think yes. So, we can start drafting the letter. We can share the draft and just note that it hasn't gone back for full review by the planning commission. But this is where, the direction of discussion is going, and we can share that with the land use environment committee. That that that is not a problem at all.

Yep.

And, again, that makes it transparent to everyone, if we include that going forward. And I can share that with Michelle and Max so that they include that in their own, staff report and say, this is the draft, thus far.

Sounds good. Everyone on board with that? Speak up now. If not okay. I have a question. Go ahead.

About the next step here. Do for the land use environment committee, do we want to just simply send a send written and let staff present, or do

we I'll try I'll try to go with it. Yeah. Cool.

I was like, I would also try to attend that. Yeah. Just in the audience. But, yes, I think that makes sense.

Yeah. I think in general, if we have a substantial letter, like, I think we do. I'll I'll try to Daniel or I'll try to go, or we'll ask ask other commissioners if neither of

us can. So I think this might warrant a seat of the table presentation kind of thing. Yeah. Summarize capture yeah. Summarize what we capture here.

Yep. Agree, Aaron, and we have had this conversation. This is definitely something we've talked about. Yeah.

Okay. Anything else on this business item? Otherwise, I will give you ten seconds, and we'll move on, because it's getting late. Okay. Reports. Anyone has, very quick reports on relevant books or meetings other than Daniel seeing beautiful trees in British BC?

Victoria, British Columbia. You guys should should go. A lot of lot of urbanism, a lot of connection to its waterfront, a lot of ferries. Yep. I would I would recommend. I would recommend for for yourself personally and also for the the state of Olympia.

Yep. Cool. Then, any other topics? I don't have any. Alright. So, Jarrett Real quick.

I I think maybe you're gonna allude to this, and you already mentioned it before. But, I do just wanna kinda confirm that, the next scheduled meetings was, supposed to be May 18. That meeting is, as of now canceled just because, staff won't be available for that, and there were no agenda items for that meeting to begin with. So the next scheduled meeting will actually be on June 1. Yep. So apologies on short notice for that, but I I did, at least wanna communicate that real quick.

Thanks, Casey. Zaneb?

Sorry. I don't I can't remember where we are on the agenda, but I just

We are in other time.

Meetings. Okay. Casey mentioned meetings. Did I did a did a meeting poll go out for our, like, retreat yet, or did I did I miss it?

I no. That I'm I'm still working through some some details on my side to try to get that out. So, my apologies. I said I would get that out, the week after our last meeting, and, clearly, that hasn't happened. So, no, you didn't miss anything. I'm still working on some logistics on the, on, the back end.

Okay. Excellent. Well, with our next meeting, June 1, this meeting is adjourned at 08:45PM. Thank you, everybody.

Thanks, everyone. Bye.

See you.