Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

We're all here. Okay. Good to go. You ready? We gonna do the mics. All right. Here comes the late Michael Burns. I am right on time. You have to stay here down there. Didn't even look. Hello. How we doing? Good evening everyone. Welcome uh to the silent handle December

meeting of the O line zoning commission excuse me at the table this evening go through our members first we have our two alternates Michael Peter Barnes and Mary Gardner Copala our permanent members Mr. Michael Foglaniano, who's his first official meeting, I believe, and Denise Savage, our um secretary Jane Marsh, Mary Joe Nosel, myself Paul Orzel, we have our scribe Amy Watt, and land use coordinator Eric Knap, and our attorney, attorney Matthew Willis from the zoning commission. So the first order of business uh this evening will be an executive session. By that I will um kindly ask that everyone leave the room for this executive session. This is uh not open to the public. It is for discussion between uh council and the commission. When the meeting is over, we will again open the door and then continue with our regular agenda. a motion for executive session.

Yep. So, I will ask for a motion that we enter executive session at 6:32 p.m. and then we invite attorney Matthew Willis into the session and then Amy Watt and Eric N. So moved as amended. Second. All in favor? I abstain of tape.

Um, we need a second. Oh, no. No. No votes were taken and no notes were taken. Is there a second? Second. No decisions made. No votes taken. Okay. No decisions made, no votes taken. Okay. Second. All in favor? I opposed. Abstain. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Somebody's beeping like crazy. Yes. Gives them an opportunity to socialize. That's true.

Okay. So, I'll wait till folks come back in. Thank you folks. Appreciate your understanding. Okay. First item on the agenda. Second item on the agenda. We have a public hearing 25-9. Madam Secretary. What? Anyways,

plug this in if that's okay. Does that work? a challenge because we're still using this for teams at the moment. So, okay, having known I would set up another way for you to do this, but I'm not sure the way to do this, right? All right, we can use the Well, let's get our legal uh

notifications before we begin. The zoning commission of the town of Gold Line will hold a public hearing at a regular meeting on Monday, December 8th, 2025 at 6:30 p.m. sort of um for Old Line, Connecticut to consider and hear comments on the following case 25-96 Lime Street special permit and coastal site plan application for renovation and expansion of the primary structure on site gallery and associated site improvements. Applicant Florence Friswell Museum, Inc. At this hearing, interested parties may be heard and written communications received. Copy of the application are in the land use office 52 Lime Street Old Lime Connecticut dated at Old Lime Connecticut this 25th day of November. So that is the public hearings notice. Um we have exhibit A which was a special permit application. Exhibit B was the CAM um application. Exhibit C is site plans, landscape and architectural plans. Exhibit D was the legal ad that I just read. Exhibit E is old lime HDC certificate of appropriateness. That's the historic district. And exhibit F, Connecticut we were estee gateway letter received 12425. That is the record right now.

Okay. Thank you. Good evening. I'll have the applicants come up and uh share with us. Thank you. We met a week or so ago, a couple weeks ago maybe. Uh I'm Pete Steer, the interim director for the museum. Welcome. Murphy. Thank you very much. And uh Sheamus is actually our um our engineer on the project. You've seen us already, but um looks like we're working from it today. James, why don't you I'll be in the back and ready to go. I can step in. Did you want to give more preamble?

Sure. So, um, as we, um, sort of alluded to last time when we, um, delivered this and had them received, the museum has, um, for many years sought to expand its, um, footprint and have, uh, increased gallery space, but also enhance some of its property in ways that would be sort of in keeping with the Gri House, which is the centerpiece for the entire museum. And so what you've seen are um parts of a plan that include renovations to the back of the museum which includes um some flexible space which includes um the ability to do uh gallery work. Um an expanded archive space which is sorely needed. Uh and then uh enclosing a veranda that's there to allow for in uh a number of smaller uh interesting what we call um pocket galleries. And then um eventually on the front of the property to um uh everything from sort of using what was at one time a road that redirects traffic away from the front of the building, but provides a complimentary um front piece to the museum that sort of reflects but makes more contemporary the access point for people who might be coming to visit. And so you've seen the the the drawings, but they're rather extensive. And I have these two folks and some folks from the museum here as well who are interested um available to answer any questions that you may have.

So we'll we'll take a a little bit of time just to walk you through the plans um with with the help of Sheamus here. Um and I can uh I can hold the plans up. Sheamus u see we have a clipboard. Is there any we plan to put something on the screen but but we can make this work. Um they're using hanging on need a couple of in their paper so you can't really I'll hold it over. This guy comes prepared over here. Yeah, but they don't have it on board. All right, never mind. That's not going to work. Never mind. Sorry. They don't have a board.

They don't have a board. Thank you. I have a board. I'll deal. Thank you. pause for a second. Excellent. Just put right over those.

They're a little big or my voice a little small. Thank you. That's excellent. Yeah, that's wonderful. Thank you.

Sorry. All right. Sorry. We're gonna try this again. Um. All right. Sorry. That's my bad. I shouldn't even said anything about so helpful. Harriet says, "Yes, fine with you guys." Yeah. Perfect. Okay, awesome. Sorry. Gives me an opportunity to stand up. That's our first a physical exercise as opposed to a All right. So, good evening. I'm Sheamus Moran from H&H Engineering. I'm just going to kind of go through the site plans uh quickly for you. Um we get a vote. So

fortunately we um there's landscape architect who was involved in this and they did a lot of grunt work for us. Uh and then once they had a nice developed plan they said can you make sure that the engineering works on it. So really my focus was looking at soil erosion sediment control uh demolition plans uh drainage structures drainage uh and some utilities uh and then site layout components. So what we're looking to do is um two phases of development for the museum. First phase is fairly straightforward, a simple approach um to some of the site improvements. The second phase and they're looking to implement that in the short order um ideally hopefully next year. Second phase is much more extensive, a bigger building addition, much more uh site improvements. Uh they'll be looking to likely raise money for that phase of it. Um so that won't be happening right away. So the way we've crafted the plans is what we're showing you is phase one site plans and then a phase two after essentially after phase one has already been completed is what phase two would be uh in addition to the phase one improvements. So we're here for

approve both of those now.

Yes, exactly. So, we want to show you what both phases look like um and hope that um you we agree that um the full development of phase 2 is something we can improve uh tonight so we don't have to do it again in two years or so. Um so, first phase here is the demolition and solar erosion cinema control plan for phase one. I'm going to hold this sheet up. So, you see here is the phase one improvements. the the back of the cradle building here. Um we're going to there's a covered porch uh in the back of the building that we're looking to remove uh the soil erosion sediment control. We just have temporary silt sock shown on the downgradient limit. The other area is along um I'm sorry I should point out the north is on this side of the page here. Um Paul's Road is on the south the left side of the page uh and Lime Street is uh on the bottom page here. Um, so what we're looking to do is on the on the Lime Street side, there's an existing walkway that we're looking to remove. So again, temporary silk socks shown uh for the phase one improvements just to make sure that there's no migration of soil uh into the wetland area. And the last uh the third area is in this area. Uh there's an access drive to get down to to some utilities on the south side of the building. Uh remove the pavement area, install a new a water tank in the future. I'm sorry. In the next sheet set, I'll I'll I'll say um install a new water tank and a new fire uh suppression system in the building with a new pump a fire pump building um in this location. And lastly is a small area uh near the existing maintenance garage to modify the parking in phase one. But next, I'm just going to show actually the site layout plan for phase one. page here. I get that right. Okay. So, this here is

the site layout and utilities improvements for phase one. So, with those demolition um with the demolition we're showing, we're showing a new building addition on the back side of the building here. As I mentioned, the new fire tank uh in the fire building, fire protection pump house building is shown here. That walkway that was shown here is just now a one-way access drive to provide better circulation for vehicles to uh to get in and out of the property. Um and just a minor parking expansion in this area. The reason for the minor parking expansion is we umund 115 spaces are required for phase one. Um we're now we're showing 117 spaces for phase one. Um but very minor improvements on the back side of the building uh in this driveway access to replace a walkway and the parking enhancements. The

some of the parking is is not it's not paid. Right. There's some of it that correct. Correct. And the um the parking that we're showing there is unpaved. It's a stone surround parking. So on once you have phase one done, the parking will be directed to the second lot, not that front lot because that's going to be eliminated.

Yeah. Let me I will just finish honestly phase the phase one grading and drainage plan is very minor. Let me show you that one quick and then we'll hop into the phase two layout um improvements. Go ahead. Pretty much we'll deal with all of that at the end. This is just the grading and drainage uh improvements for phase one. You can see very very minor um there's very minor grading associated with the new uh access drive. We're just showing the proposed contours. Um the same with the the gra I'm sorry the the parking lot the gravel parking lot and this section over here very minor. Uh, as I mentioned in the the soil version set of control plan, we do have silt fence, I'm sorry, temporary silt socks shown um just to prevent any migration of soils. But that's it for phase one. There's not a lot for phase one. Now, we'll just get into the phase two improvements.

How long would you expect phase one to last? Phase one is probably about a year of construction. Plan is to start in the spring. Um, and it would continue for a year in terms of construction activity. Um, the museum really wants to keep as much of the property open as possible. The Florence Griswald House would be open. There's some provisions we're looking at in terms of keeping some of the cribal gallery building spaces open during construction. Um, that's something that we'll have to continue to work on the logistics of with the building inspector and things, the fire marshall. Um, yeah, it's about a year of construction.

So, now I'm just going to show you the demo plan. really flippery demo, but phase two now. Um, so what that involves is this parking area. There's a hatch you can't really see unless you get in close here. The parking here is all being removed. The parking here is being removed. U and for soil version control, we're showing a temporary uh construction entrance in this location here. Another one in and out. So as vehicles are in and out of the site, there's a construction entrance at each end of it end of the site. um temporary um sediment sock shown in downgradient limits of disturbance. Um so along this entire edge here and along here uh and along the uh the downgradient edge near the new building um a portion of the front of the building will also be removed um just to facilitate construction of the next phase which is an improvement to the entrance of the main building here. Um what's also shown on this plan are just the temporary sediment um temporary soil stockpile areas in the current lawn area. The only other item that's to be removed here is the the Huntley Brown building is to be removed along with the walkways associated with the Huntley Brown building. So the walkways, the access drives, the parking areas and the building and the very and the front of the uh building will be removed um to facilitate construction of phase two.

Where will those go? Where will the public building go? So, it's really important and good question. There's a there's there have been a couple people have expressed interest in it. It's it's not um it's not contributing to the historical relevance of our property, but it is an interesting old home and we've had a couple of parties sort of approach us with interest of dismantling it and um building it again on their property. We haven't gone much further than that because we feel as though we're probably a couple of years away from needing that to happen, but that is a sort of an area of interest that a few people have sort of come to us with.

Regarding the sidewalk removal, are you introducing anything new to create new circulation into the property from a residential comp like from a a pedestrian standpoint? Well, yeah. Go ahead. I mean, I

jump ahead off your brief. No, I mean that's a good I was going to mention when Sheamus was um highlighting what was getting removed on the demolition plan. A lot of that work is here which is kind of in the center of the property. This is the Florence Scrisswald House, the Cribal Museum. And the ambition is to kind of remove the vehicle from needing to pass through the middle of this space and to make this um a pedestrianon green space and make it kind of a landscape first environment without the vehicle um cutting through it. Um so that was the introduction of this entry road in phase one which will serve a rebuilt parking area and the additional lots. Um the existing driveway is proposed to be converted into a something more akin to a farm lane. Um so we would maintain it for emergency vehicle access. Um but it wouldn't be, you know, a 20 foot wide asphalt paved driveway. It would be, you know, two strips of paving with cobbles in between. Um and there would be a gate that would restrict vehicle access during normal hours. Um, and so that becomes again it's more of a pedestrian thoroughfare. Um, and then there's a whole other kind of sequence of walkways that link parking to the new museum entrance and parking to the Florence Griswald House. Um, that shape this lawn space um, which is a great opportunity for outdoor programming, potential art display. Um, so we think of it really as trying to make the car secondary and we're adding a lot to support pedestrian movement. To that point, do you have anything to bring pedestrians into the property

from from Lime Street? We're not either Halls Road or Lime Street. So, there is currently um Peter, you may know more of the specifics. There is a an artist trail that kind of links with Lime Street through the property that we're keeping as is. We're not changing. Um, so there is there is ways into the property from Lime Street currently that would remain untouched, but there's no new walkway. There's no new walk at like did you do was that ever a consideration? Well, it's an interesting um thought because although I don't know the details of it, I I do know that there have been sort of proposals about sidewalks. Well, that's why I'm getting at that. Got the grant. They're going to be running the sidewalk all the way down to the light. Yeah.

So, it'd be nice to see some sort of circulation for pedestrian traffic for you guys into into the space. I think we would think the same. You know, the the question of a sidewalk across the front has sort of questions about room and capacity and stone walls that are in place and things. Yeah. But I think, you know, um, given the understanding that there's going to be some pedestrian walkways built there, the idea that someone can access our property from that from that sidewalk would be sort of appealing. Trails on the inside like up the up the rule one side. Right. Right. Yeah. I think it would just really be a spur off of an existing walkway that would plug into new sidewalk. Right.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess that what I'm getting at is is that should that be something that maybe I understand it's a significant investment, but I feel it'd be a worthy investment to put sidewalks in along your frontage. I don't know. I mean, we're trying to get sidewalks all through town here. I don't want to disrupt the look of this of the house up in the front. And I just looked at the, you know, just looking at the street view. There's a pretty sizable side yard before the stonewall. Yeah. Um well it's a one of the things it would take sort of some some additional thinking in in that space. There are also some memory stones and some other things that have been planted there. I think with the idea that they were permanent, but um you know I think if the if the town has

not from the lime street side, but at least the halls are outside. You know, it's a stretch. If they can get access here, they might not walk all the way around, right? But we know that they're going to be putting sidewalks right up into this front edge. So, I'd like to include it in your plan side of Halls Road on your side. It is. Okay. Well, there's already a half sidewalk almost there. Yeah, it's kind of a need, but I understand it's within the state right away, too. So, yeah. Okay. So, please continue.

So, as null already pointed out, um this whole area is kind of being reworked to be more functional uh for circulation and better for aesthetics and and overall feel for the for the complex. So, the parking area in this area has been shrunken down. This is an access drive, farm road, essentially just for emergency vehicles if they need to. There's gates at the front and then this area is enforced turf. Um so that way if there's an emergency vehicle that has to access it, they can gain access on the front of the building. Uh this is the building addition. You can see it's a darker hatch. Uh the architectural plans do much more justice than the planetric view that we see here, but uh it's a beautiful new addition to the main building. Um you can see some of these drainage line work improvements. There's already drainage system in here right now. Because we're putting the addition in, we have to wrap the drainage around the new addition. There's all of the drainage currently for the site. There's about 2.85 acres uh based on the 2018 improvement plan that drains to this infiltration basin in the back. If anybody's been back here, it's a beautiful infiltration basin with a walkway over the top of it.

Um that was designed and approved and constructed uh right around 2018 uh was the Hydrocad report that I have. Um so this was designed to accommodate the storm water runoff for a significant portion of the development. We are only reducing we're reducing the impervious by 1355 ft um which allows for you know in increase the reduce peak rates of runoff and increased infiltration. So um more water quality and less peak rates of runoff. So uh the storm water system that's in place already uh will will is going to continue to serve the development. We're reducing the impervious coverage um and the traffic circulation rather than being kind of right in front with all the parking. Now we've moved the parking so that way there's existing parking here and we're stacking additional gravel parking adjacent to that. So most of the parking areas now are are offset into the kind of the center of the site away from the attractions. um the circulation now rather than coming in and around through the building is coming out uh on the new access drive through the parking area and looping around. Um so those are the big site improvements. I just touched on the grading and drainage in the storm water as well which is the next sheet. Uh, so I think I jumped the gun a little bit on that, but overall it's just rerouting the storm water system, the drainage system around the proposed building, maintaining uh the drainage structures out to the infiltration basin that was designed and constructed in 2018. Um, I think with that I can pass to null. I'm sure you saw the package. It's very impressive and it's it's fun to go through the architecturals here. So I think I'll pass it off to null that it works. Unless there's any immediate questions, otherwise um we'll just again that works. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. That covers the landscape too in in

part. So, I'm going to just jump to the building and we'll do a pass through the building. Close.

Too many sheets of drawings. All right. Um, sorry to be a mountain that blocks your view. Hopefully you can see. Um, so this is a a floor for plan of the existing uh Creable building which is attached to the Marshfield House which was an existing house on the site when the Creole building was built in 2001 and there was a decision made to connect the two. So there's two conjoined buildings. Um, this is a demo plan of phase one. The demo in phase one is pretty limited. Um, as Sheamus mentioned, there's a a porch on the back side. the west side of the building. Um the plan is to demolish the porch. Um and then there's some other kind of localized demolition and at the edges of Marshfield House and within the Creable building. Um we're going to add sprinklers to the Creole building. Importantly, um I'm going to go to the proposed that's the roof plan which doesn't shed a whole lot of light on things. The proposed plan um includes in in the location of the veranda but a bit larger in size um a new series of gallery spaces um fronting the river. Um so there's three galleries um or three larger galleries. We're calling them pocket galleries uh because they're you know relatively smaller compared to the existing three galleries um of the creeple building. And those galleries are um kind of interspersed with windows so that as you move through the space and as you um enjoy the artwork, you're getting connected back to the landscape. That's kind of one of the fundamental premises of the project is to integrate um the visitor experience and the artwork back to the landscape from which that art originally

came. Um and at the end of that line of galleries is one larger room um that functions as an education center. So that is a really flexible space. You could have art exhibited in the space, but it's really meant to be a place that you could have lectures, events, music, kind of a huge range of activities, school groups. Um that's really um a space that the museum doesn't currently have. So that enhances their ability to do more events for um their patrons in the community. Um and then that behind that space plugged into the existing building um is kind of an art study research center. Right now there's a very small space in the museum dedicated to that. This will allow researchers um school groups and others to have better access to the collection which is now locked.

Could you just put up here the previous existing version? I think it was too too bad. Yeah, this is the over here. We can maybe just as a comparison. So So this now is all outdoor space, but it's cover. Yep. Um and we're The idea is that we would enclose that porch space, although the addition is a bit bigger than that original porch. So, are you still going to have a covered porch or are you doing away with that completely? Phase one does not have any covered porch. Um, phase two where we operate on this side of the building, um, we do have a a porch, but there's no porch back here other than the I say yes, you're keeping that porch,

right? Okay. So, the Marshfield House porch, which is where Cafe Flow um resides in the warmer months stays. Uh, the cafe stays. So, it's just this area right in here that you're It's just that area. Yeah. Okay. I think is a kind of the lesser used portion of the forge. And one of the kind of the the detriments of of this layout if you've been into the museum galleries is light control and other things forces these doors to almost always be closed and blocked off. So there's really very little paracity between the interior and the exterior.

Here we've we've kind of segregated the galleries from the windows so that there's better light control. There would be motorized shades and things. Um but that allows those visual connections from inside to outside. Um I can keep I can go on to phase two. I mean I can show the I'll strictly show the elevation of that. I mean this is a a series of elevations of of all sides of the building but in phase one really all of the work is on the west side of the building.

So those are the galleries. So these are the galleries here. Um it's 15 foot high roof line which is lower. We want to make sure that the gables of the Marshfield House and the Creable Gallery still are legible. Um so this is kind of low kind of in in the kind of the height of that that original veranda. And it's all cedar clad. Um kind of one single material that would naturally weather to kind of a gray silver color. Um

the standing metal seam roof already on there and they're just continuing. Yeah. Well, we would have a flat roof on our proposed addition. Um but the existing all the gable roofs are standing seam. Yeah. Then phase phase two is a is a more of ambitious phase. Um and then it it kind of rethinks the the entrance. So fa this is phase one that would obviously carry over when we start phase two. Uh the demolition in phase two is the existing kind of entrance lobby bathroom area of the museum. Um, right now this entrance is kind of sunken down. If you come from parking, you've got to go down a sloped walk, uh, series of steps or a ramp down to the vestibule. We want to bring that up so that everyone is entering, uh, from parking without having to go down a sloped walkway. And we're also going to bring the grade up outside the entrance, as I'll show you in a moment, um, so that you can move from inside to outside more easily. Um, so this goes away. There's a couple of taller um kind of silo like volumes on the corner of the building that would be removed. And then this is the fourth plan of phase uh phase two um where we're adding essentially the functions that we had in the old entrance area. So kind of lobby, shop, restrooms, um ticketing are all kind of pushed forward. um they're more visible when you arrive from parking. They're not sunken down anymore. And and

by pushing that forward, we gain a lot of space for additional gallery room. Um so we're adding one full-size gallery that matches the original gallery sizes. Um and then a small kind of entry gallery that has north facing windows and views to the river. This is a kind of a really beautiful kind of the best view I think from inside the building to the river is in this space or in this lobby space. Um so again trying to open up those views and connect to the landscape. Um and then that gallery brings you through the entrance of Marshfield, you know, to cafe flow. Um so that visitors have an easy way of accessing the cafe. And um I neglected to mention it before, we're adding also two bathrooms that are kind of dedicated to support the cafe function, so you don't have to go back and forth in in and out of the museum if you're having lunch. Um so this here um is is a large roof canopy that uh kind of gives cover to an outdoor porch. So, the entrance now feels more like a pavilion than a kind of a solid building. So, this is the entrance. Well, there's something screwy going on here, but these are the entrance doors. Um, and this large outdoor space is covered and is available for events. Um, you could have music set up. You could be on the lawn washing musical performance. You could have tables and chairs for dinner or a lecture outside in this space. Um, there could be times where there's a membership drive and that's set up out here. So, it gives the the museum kind of an outdoor space in the better months. Makes it feel kind of bigger than it it really is in terms of that expense of the enclosed space.

Um, I'm sorry, that's on the the front. This is on the front. Um, I'm just going to grab I'll grab a render right here. I'm going to put it in here. It's going to be a little small here, but I can show you uh a few images. Um

this is the best image, but you know this this is uh again I apologize this is so small. This is a view from the entry looking down the farm lane to this new entrance kind of garden pavilion that is the new front of the Creable Gallery.

Um, so it's meant to be kind of light and and like I said, more in the language of a garden building than a a solid museum structure. Um, and then this is a view um under this porch space as you move towards the entrance. So that's that covered outdoor space um that everyone entering the museum would arrive through. Um and then this is kind of another exterior view of this large roof. Um and as you arrive, you enter in and you get a view straight out to the river. Um it's kind of your first indoor experience is still kind of oriented towards the entrance to the left. Is that right?

Yep. That's the And then this is a a view down into the um this entry gallery here. Um and that kind of sets you on your way into the sequence of galleries. And one of the nice things about the addition is currently the galleries are kind of a dead end. You have to s cycle back through the same space here. It's more of a loop. Um so you can kind of choose your own adventure, but you're never backtracking on yourself necessarily. Um, and again, I know these are very small. And this is um this is a view through one of these windows from an existing gallery framing the landscape. And then finally, the the education center here. This was one scenario where it's used for a lecture. Um, but it can do all sorts of things. Um, including being a gallery space at times. Um, if that works for the museum. Um, going to flip to the exterior elevations of this. Um, so this is the the west elevation which is all really phase one, but this is on the opposite side. This is the east elevation. It's maybe not as dynamic in in in 2D. Um, but this entire area is that covered outdoor space. And then there's a shop and the lobby which are glass enclosed volume. Um we did commit to the Gateway Conservation Commission who we met with uh late last week. Um is that late last week? It's been a blur. Um that we would be uh using bird safe glass which is a glass that has um it's kind of an etched glass um so that it it it kind of dulls the reflective nature of the glass that isn't too dangerous for birds. Um, so

that's something that we'll be implementing on the project. Um, sorry. Um, the the siding choices. What's that? Is that also aluminum? What is that? The kind of the brown orange vertical.

Yeah. So, that's all it's all wood and it's rendered as, you know, it would look the day it's installed. It's all Alaskan yellow cedar, which within a year will start weathering to more of a gray silver. Um, the existing PBLO building is all kind of a white painted clabber building. So, it's a similar scale in terms of the boards. Um, but it would be a naturally weathered material like some of the barns on the property. Um, when we when we use that material, we usually treat it with a a weathering oil so that when it gets installed, it already has kind of a gray on it. It's not um, you know, too bright, but it does weather pretty quickly. But to caveat it, the renderings show it like as it looks installed.

The Yeah, the the intention is that it would um it would dull down to the silvery color pretty quickly and it would not look like that forever. There stairs inside then that get you down to the Yes, that's a good a good comment. Um I should have is it higher than what?

Yeah, I should have mentioned that. Um, so there are so when you arrive, um, the the the pasture, lawn space, the parking are all relatively accurate, all um, you know, 2% slope or less. And then you come in and there are there are stairs. You're going down about 4 and 1/2 ft inside the building. There's also an 88 lift um, uh, you know, for accessibility reasons. Um, but we thought it was important to get the entrance um and and this aspect of the visitor experience to be more tightly knit to the surrounding landscape. Some point you do need to go down that 4 and ft.

To that point, do you think a lift is a real the best realistic option for getting elderly people in and up and down slope uh versus a ramp or something like that? Yeah, I mean we did we did we looked at many many options including a ramp. Um the ramp it it takes up a tremendous amount of space of foot. That's

but the kind of the making that moment in the building a little more equitable was something that came up in a meeting with the museum um not too long ago. Um, so if there's a nicer way to integrate kind of that moment of going down the stair and the moment where the lift is located, not feel so separate. Um, that's I think something that we want to maybe go back to the plans to improve. But yeah, the ramp I mean if it's a um you're you're looking at like a 45 foot long ramp. Yeah. Um but we did we did many options that tried tried to incorporate looked at a pitless elevator. What's that? A pitless elevator.

This would have a very very shallow pit but I mean a pitless they actually the motor was actually on the on the contraction itself. Yeah. So that's how this that's that's I know that's Yeah. This that's what this is. It's not a elevator in the um in kind of the full sense of an elevator with the pit and override and all of that. It's um I've just been there many times to eat and enjoy and I can tell you I see a fair share of canes walking around in there on a regular basis

and that yeah the generally kind of access from parking drop off to the building um for all ages and particularly an older age group is something that we there's some members of the the building committee here talked about extensively um and it was it was always a kind of a balancing act but I appreciate what you're saying and I I do think some of the inner workings of phase two to the points you're making and you're making about the elevator are things that I think we still want to continue to improve upon. We have a little ways before we get a building permit for this

lift at the historical society which is what I think you're describing and it works very well. Um people seem to operate it quite quite easily. Yeah, I mean I think lifts have improved a lot in the last like 10 10 or so years. Um they were, you know, clunky and and prone to breaking down. I feel like it when I think of lifts when I was my grandmother was, you know, using them. Um but I feel like they've they have improved and they're nicer, more attractive looking. Um let's see what else I have in terms of architectural drawings. I have a lighting plan as the last um real drawing in this set which I can touch on quickly also. Um that's important. This one's actually very difficult to read I think from a a distance but I can tell you the kind of the principles of the site lighting strategy. Um first of all all of the the lighting is on the east side of the building. There's no exterior lighting being added between the building and the river. Um, it's all dark sky compliant lighting, but there's really three lighting fixture types. There's one for pedestrian pathways. That's ballard lighting. So, it's kind of a short ballard that's on on this pathway here. Um, and along this pathway here. Um, that's just throwing light down onto the blocking surface. Um, so if you're driving by at night, you're not going to see something that's bright and illuminated in this kind of zone of the site. Um, and then there's two pole lights. There's a shorter pole light um, which is shown here that is along the um, pedestrian walkway that connects the Florence Briswald House and and kind of two barns in the corner of and the entrance, I guess, of the new addition.

Um those are 12 foot high pole lights. These ones we imagine kind of being integrated into um there's a kind of a lot of planting and mature trees here of into the tree canopy. So they're not um they're doing the job of lighting the ground surface, but they're not kind of featured objects on the landscape. Um and then in the parking area, we have more kind of stricts requirements in terms of foot candles um on the surface um for safety reasons. Those are taller poles just so we can get more coverage. Uh, and those would be the most visible I think from a distance. Um, but we want to use kind of an attractive uh post and fixture that is, you know, reminiscent of something you would see in a more kind of pastoral setting. Um, so that's the that's the site lighting. I know that there's, you know, specific actually don't know that the ordinance here has lots of specific requirements for light levels. No, just nothing's nothing leaves the site, right? It hits zero without you get to the edge of the site.

Yep. So, that we that we would comply with for a lot of reasons. One, it's a big site, but these are all dark sky compliant. We would do um a kind of a warmer LED color tone, not a bright white or blue light. But would the lighting be on all evening or do you have some plans of turning lights off?

I think Now, the light is on all evening. Um, but I I don't know that we've sort of addressed that. You know, the museum traditionally closes early except for events in the evening. Um, really the priority for the lighting that we've got here is safety. Um, so, you know, if the desire is to turn turn the lights down when there's nobody there, we should consider that. Um because I, you know, where it's a rare event, five times a year, maybe we have people there past 8:00 at night.

Yeah. I mean, often we can call for them to be dimmed down at a certain hour. Um and then they would turn off in the morning when the sun comes up. Um you might need to unvary. Keep going your presentation. uh you know I I mean I've uh I think I've covered um without going through you know uh many many more minutes of um exposition here on the plans I think and but I'm happy to pause for comments and go into any of this in more detail if you're trying to pull up the site plan there maybe you can answer yeah go ahead

um so you're rendering here with the farm lane that's kind of why I want to see the site plan sure is is this this is the entrance road on the left is the entrance road. Okay. So, you you really have no pedestrian access there besides the entrance road. It would be the same access as currently exists that joins um that joins at Lime Road like the current driveway would. It just happens about I don't know. So, um, if this is the street frontage you're talking about, it's um, right now there are Oh, okay. There's that.

Yeah. So, this is this is a just a more of a conventional walkway, but there is an artist trail that kind of Yeah. weaves its way through all all the way across the site. I mean that would be I think if we're going to plug into Lime Street um because your entrance isn't changing right entrance isn't changing. It's going to stay then and that would bring you in, you know, in here to the museum or or to the to the house. So unless you walk down through the lime art academy or the art association, you're not able to access the trail, right? Because right as right now, for instance, you have to come in here in order to get to here in order to be able to get into here. Otherwise, you're walking in the street. And the trail isn't for everybody.

No, that's that's what I'm kind of getting at here. You you're you got a lot of beautiful things going on here. I I me personally, I want to see some way to connect on both sides. Now, thinking now you have the Roger Troy, you know, the Peterson place right next door. So, you want more inviting ways for them to get over to you as well, I would imagine. Right. I don't know if there's like any connectivity between that, but I if there's going to be sidewalks or there's already people walking down the side of this frontage in order to get into here, whether it's from this side or that side, I think it would behoove you to figure out a way to add some sort of pedestrian access and from from the main road. That's my that's the only thing I see. Actually, that's very that's very helpful. Cool. There

any signage? So, we um I think we we wouldn't change signage out at the street as part of this um project. At this time, we would have signage, I think, on the building um as part of phase two. I think we make a statement in the application that we would, it's too premature now to know exactly what that signage will look like. Um we would come back to get that approved separately.

Sign application you would need to file. Yeah, we have a fair amount of signage on the property now um that's done out of necessity and it's not all attractive and I think one of the goals architecturally was that we actually lead people to where they might want to be or might ought to go um and do it more naturally and with less signage but but to the point that N makes um determining precisely what that is is something we'll have to do closer to it. Yeah, I think I mean there'll be signage that's subject to probably your review, maybe the historic district commission also, but there will also be some wayfinding signage for a visitor that's moving through the site that's moreformational. Um, but which is a whole other design exercise that we haven't embarked.

How is the parking lot? Is it a curve? Is it a is it buffered? Is it how do people circulate? pedestrians circulate within the parking lot like on the around the perimeter. Are they expected to walk through the I mean this this is the only lot that has a clear path of pedestrian circulation. This this gravel lot and this new re rebuilt main lot. Um here these are um used a bit less. I mean they are used often but not as frequently on a daily basis as these. So these are just got five spots up there. Six. Yeah, there's that's going to be really So I imagine that's just your ADA area.

There's 45 spots total, but this is a this is a gravel an existing gravel lot here. This here I got it. Okay. I was thinking this was the new one and this was going away, but that's staying. Yes. There's this is a this is the proposed walkway connects into the existing walkway. There's no defined walkway um between these uh parking lots. So from the gravel they just have to to meander to the path. Gotcha. And then if you got your res if you got your people pedestrians walking in from this way, how are they getting into the circulation?

I think that's an oversight currently in the plan. That's something we could spend some more time resolving. Right now there is no, you know, as you can observe, no provision to get people from Halls Road on foot deeper into the site. So it's something we'd have to look more carefully at. Now maybe repetitive. I just hadn't seen it. So if we were to go on the south um sorry, the east side, we were to add even a doesn't even have to be paved. If it's a aesthetic or gravel walk or a peace stone, something like that along the edge,

um we're proposing this walkway here. There's a walkway here. So, it's it's pretty easy to connect into the into the main uh into the building. So, something I'm sure we can not trying to beat the dead. So, are all your parking lots now going to be stone?

No, just the the new ones are to be stone. Uh the existing Well, the portion that's being removed is being replaced with a paved uh paved surface. That's where the accessible parking spaces are. Um, and that circulates into a gravel, an existing gravel parking area that will stay gravel. That circulates into a paved parking area that will stay paved. And the new um additional gravel parking spaces will see will be gravel.

Right. What I recall is that the those were um required spaces at the time you got your approval, but you thought you wouldn't need to use them. though they were gravel at the time, but I think the commission's opinion has sort of changed that we like the less um impervious surfaces. So having the be gravel is probably a good idea.

Um one along kind of that vein um one thing I neglected to mention is between in phase two um the landscape arctic design designed a rain garden uh that we is just for the additional building rooftop runoff. It's beautiful the way they did this thing. It's not anything any engineering component in there other than um some storage capacity. There's an under drain um that goes to a spillway. Um there's like a rain chain to a like a bronze pooling area to a rain garden to a spillway um to an outlet structure. That's where I get involved. So there's an outlet structure to connect to the catch basin and then gets out. So there is a rain garden um designed to accommodate the additional building rooftop runoff um for the building addition for phase two. Other questions alternates especially I think everybody heard my concern. So, no other questions by anyone about the proposal. I can move on to opening it up to public comment.

One thing. Okay. I just think I have to ask this. Um, maximum percent of land coverage permitted. Are we all within that with the addition? Maximum number of land coverage percentage. So, we're decreasing the impervious coverage. Uh, is the lat coverage is that the same number? I always get confused. I'm going to challenge my buddy here because you guys acquired the additional acreage which might have lowered your your coverage lot coverage. Yeah. I mean we've done the analysis and everything is is within the kind of the buy requirements. So

yeah, we just we just put a number less than 30. Yeah. Yeah. So you got 30% coverage saying or is that at that point the um you know there's a number in the CAM application it was like 91,000 um building I think in the where's the CAM application I have so I think they mentioned the total lot coverage in the CAM application that was prepared and that was um the center. It meets the requirements. The difference would be hard.

That's that's the um put this here. This is improvements will decrease on-site impervious surfaces. Yeah. So 89 914. Yeah, I got it. Yeah. Okay. Create 20.19%. Yeah. So, it's below the 30%. She's she's looking at a building coverage thing of 10%. Oh, building coverage. Okay. So, we would be Yeah. Yes. 6.9% for the total for phase two. So, we're Yeah. Great. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome.

7.6 post improvements. Is that Yeah, it's still under it. It needs to be under 10. Yeah, thanks. I figured you'd check that box. We would have mentioned it if we didn't. Well, I'm sure. Thank you. Okay, last call for the commission. Alternates, especially final questions. Sidewalks. We're good. Yeah, because we can't talk during the public hearing. All righty. Great. Thank you, gentlemen. Guys, thank you. Thank you. Really excited about this.

Yeah, it'll be great. So, if the commission is satisfied, then I will ask if there is anyone in the room this evening that would like to make a public comment about this application. You're invited to come forward, state your name and address, and provide us with your comments. and I can wait 10 seconds. That's in a trinity in a quiet room.

All right. It doesn't look as if we have anyone uh looking to make a comment um for this application. So, I will ask uh the commission that we um entertain a motion to close the public hearing on 96 Lime Street. Is there a motion to close? Make motion that we close public hearing on this unit as Okay. Is there a second? Second. Second. I did the uh our comments. Did the conservation commission pass it? the construction gateway they didn't pass it. They do have two recommendations here already. Want me to read them?

Yes, please. Uh CRGC makes two recommendations to the zoning commission that it request and review calculations on the topographic modifications to ensure the modifications are reasonable. and two that uh it requests the applicant to use low luster glass in all the windows to reduce the layer. I think mentioned that I think we mentioned that. Yep. We can address those when we go to vote but we have a second and there's all in favor of closing the public hearing.

Opposed staying. Okay. Public hearing is closed. 5 0 Okay, then we can move right into the next section which is this case 25-996 Lime Street special permit and coastal site plan application comments by the commission. We satisfied with um Eric, do you think that um our engineer needs to review anything?

Uh it has been shipped out to Jameson. We have not heard back. So I would say subject to any further comments that Jacobson may have regarding the drainage calculation, things of that sort. Additionally, I do know that there were discussions with the fire marshal. Um there they have given us materials that seem to indicate that they've addressed the fire marshall's concerns, but um he did indicate he would like one more sort of pass through with this to make sure that he's comfortable with the turning lady for for trucks and that. I would just say it's subject to any further comments that the fire marshall may have. But how can we do that in any kind of decision?

Well, you've frequently made conditions of approval that say subject to, you know, Jacobson further. I don't think Jacobs is going to change the substance of what is being approved here other than again they may ask for modifications to the drainage systems and in which case you would just get new sheets that that that take that into account. I mean the underlying use I don't think is is changing here. I don't think that again they're going to ask for a different size or shape or anything on the building size, but they may ask for again more details regarding certain drainage calculations or more, you know, with different piping or whatever else it is. I think that's the sort of thing that can be handled by as a condition of approval. Um, and I think likewise on the fire marshal side, um, I don't think that any remaining issues are fully substantive. I think it's just a matter of demonstrating to uh the fire march satisfaction that the turning radi um meet in case requirements. My understanding from the materials provided by the applicant is they believe they've already done that. Um but again, the fire marshall has not had an opportunity to get back uh uh his comments on on the final plans at this point in time.

So if we were looking in the record to find the fire marshall's um review, is there anything in here? There is nothing in there. There was again you should have and maybe I tracked it down to this file. Um there was an exchange. Okay. Um this is lifted for exhibit. This came in just this afternoon. We've had this as an exhibit and you can sort of read this into the record here.

Okay. Exhibit G. Um, email from Noel Murphy to Eric and Dave Rober. Um, from a copy to Sheamus. Um, hi Eric and Dave. I'm writing in advance of the Florence Bridgel Museum special permit hearing this evening. I understand there may be concerns or at least a lack of clarity around the plans for fire vehicle access. It it goes back some way, but there was information shared and comments provided on this subject back in March 2025. At that time, we had a virtual meeting together with the landscape architect Stimson to review the general strategy which includes an area of reinforced turf driveway as well as specific width requirements for the fire apparatus. In reviewing my correspondence, there was a follow-up call on March 20th between Dave Rober and Jim Cho or Choy, excuse me, at Stimson to confirm the width requirements. The last exchange was an email confirmation of the agreed upon fire lane widths. The attachment for this email exchange and the associated site plan for reference. The plans that have been submitted are consistent with this approach and the comments received at that time. So no Murphy is senior associate from Odin's Elio Architecture LLC. Um, this was the um email from Jim Choy to the fire marshal. Thank you for the phone call, Dave. Choosing the loop on the email thread to

make sure we're all on the same page. Please chime in. Chime in if anything needs certification. Our understanding is the fire lane where the vehicle will pull up to the building should be 18 ft 16 ft wide with an additional 4 ft of reinforced surface on each side for the outriggers or 24 ft total width shown in yellow above. How long does the 24 ft wide access area need to extend? Um, let's see. At the area where the stone walls converge, we are showing 12 ft width for the exit route. Would that be acceptable? Exit route should be 16 ft wide. I assume these are answers from Dave. Yeah. Um, would it work if part of the 24 foot So, the questions are are being asked and then Dave answers 24 foot wide reinforced area should begin at canopy. The fire truck cannot park right up against the canopy since it needs room to accommodate the swing of getting ladders and other equipment into position. So, those were Dave Rober's recommendations. So, I guess we could include those in the approval. Okay. There were there were two more speculative items of the discussion around pedestrian access from from uh Paul's road and uh

from one and sidewalks is it should sidewalks on one and if that were the case that would have to be an application to the state but there is a way that I believe Sheamus mentioned where you could from Hall's Road they could tap in and they could tap in with Peace Stone or whatever into the existing trailer make it more userfriendly walkable so to speak. So does that answer the question or

I think so. Uh just quickly on on the pedestrian and I think you know Mike had a good point when we were in public hearing and talking about it. Um I'm not interested so much um in putting the sidewalks in front of the whole building. Obviously um they they own some property but you know there's there's also like where's the right of way and determining all of that. That said, I think the point is, is there a way to have a walkway or a pedestrian way aside of the driveway so that someone who is, you know, on Lime Street can enter the property without just walking up the driveway. So, I think it's a matter of can we look at, you know, some type of pedestrian access. So, not trying to do the frontage uh uh sidewalk, but something that if sidewalks eventually go in there, it could be hooked into. So, it's not an it's not like, oh, now we've got a sidewalk, but the sidewalk you have to look the driveway. Could we make it? So, people come. So when there are events um and there are events like this um especi like in the summer when we have a lot of pedestrians there for the big festival where people going from you know the old lime in to the you know the different places and they it's like but they have to cross the street and it's like and the only way is up the driveway. So I'm looking at is there some way to do pedestrian adjacent to the driveway. So here's the driveway. Is there room? And I know we've got the stone wall there, so it's a little a little tricky, but um I I think it's definitely something that should be explored.

Okay. It's just getting us to the street or to a potential sidewalk. Any other comments? All right. Joe any any good? Okay.

So, is the commission this question? Is the commission comfortable with moving forward um with a motion for approval with conditions? Or would we like to see and wait for more information from our engineer from the fire marshal and maybe from the applicant themsself regarding some so you're not going to get any more from the applicant? No, not not now. But we can do it. I think we can make able with conditions.

I think we can. Okay. Good. All right. I have a question. Do we uh before I go there, do we typically ask for construction bonds on for nonprofits? Usually con you can ask for erosion control bond potentially, but usually construction bonds are for what would be public improvements and there are public improvements here. So if you want a bond for an erosion control, we can certainly talk to Jacobs about coming up with a number for what that would look like. But usually again, construction bonds are for anything that the town would have to go in and put in if the applicant didn't do. And there's nothing here the town would be obligated to do if the applicant didn't do it.

The the one other question I have is this is obviously not just a special permit, it's a coastal management as well. Yep. Yeah. So from the from the from that perspective, have we gotten comments from DEP? We sent them notice. We never heard back from them on this one, honestly. Um Okay. How long do they They got 35 days and they've had more than 35 days. Okay. So, they've had more than 35. That was more than 35 days to act on this and have not acted. Um yeah, you you guys received this last month on the 8th I believe it was and we had sent it to D even before that

and we're now at the you know 12th this month. Um and again they they had gotten it ahead of time there. They've had it for more than 35 days at this point. Just checking because I didn't see it. So, no, you you if you but if we had gotten it, you would have gotten it. Um, again, my suspicion is that because this is not on a mandatory referral. Um, because again, there's no direct flood control measures. They're not really we're not doing things that are that would trigger sort of mandatory referral that they probably are. it just was lower down on the list of things that they had to get back to us on. Mhm.

Um I don't think they thought potentially that there's really much in the way of damage to coasts or that there were any uses that were being prohibited by the fact that they were doing this. So I I think this sort of falls within the coastal area management policies. Um but I we have not heard back from D on this. I'll be honest.

Okay. And J then the last question I have and this has to do with the storm water. with the storm water. Uh does this trigger them having to go to the state for their storm water permit or is the storm water permit that's part of that will be part of the erosion sediment control the drainage that we're approving going to substitute for that storm water permit at the state level. Um I'll have to verify J. My understanding is this is not required going to the state. We we we have not we have not reached the level of volume that they would that would trigger state state approval here. So I will confirm that with Jac's office and obviously yeah it's not about volume of water it's about how much the site is disturbed.

Okay. And I wasn't I kind of know for residential but I wasn't sure on a non-residential lot what the requirements I was if they have to go to the state they have to go to the state whether or not you know we you know I mean ultimately see they have to go to the state if we don't issue if we don't really look at it. So if we look at it and we're doing a storm water permit sometimes that the state will say oh you got one from the town so you don't have to come to us. Okay.

And they do that on residential property. So, I was looking to see, you know, one of the things that, and that's one of the reasons I really want to make sure we hear from our engineers is that if the state's not going to issue a storm water permit, and it's going to come just back on that they're they're meeting that that statewide requirement by getting a permit from us, I want to make sure that we're tight with it. Okay. Well, again, I I I don't have comments from Jacobson at this point. If you want to wait and wait until I have comments, you certainly can do that. Um, the public hearing is closed. you can receive Jacobson's comments even after closed public hearing. Um, alternatively, again, you condition this based on whatever Jacobson gets gets back to us on. Um,

yeah, I mean, it's not like there's that much here in terms of storm water. It's a it's a fairly easy site to handle compared to some things we've seen. Yeah, they're not really getting that much closer to the river particularly and they're not it's a relatively flat site. So there shouldn't be a large amount of new runoff that's getting into into vulnerable areas.

And again, you did get testimony from Mr. Moran regarding the the measures they're going to do to prevent erosion in that direction. Um you know, I have not heard from Jacobson. Mr. Moran asked me this afternoon if I'd heard back and the answer is not yet. Um but um again up to the commission whether they want to wait for those comments before making a decision or whether they feel comfortable making a commission of approval. Do we move forward with the with lists of conditions or does the commission like to wait?

I'd like to move forward. Is there anyone who has strong opposition to that? No. Okay. Then I will ask for a motion to approve the application. Oh, do we have our standard special permit? Those are going to be Yeah, those are going to be concluded sort of just if you want to just say we with standard conditions plus and then we can add in whatever additional items are beyond that. Okay.

Okay. I I'll start with the motion that we approve the application for 96 Lime Street, both phase one and phase 2, uh the special permit and the coastal flight plan. Um and the conditions are that we will um uh defer to our town engineer, Mr. Jacobson, um when he supplies reviewed comments, those are to be addressed by the applicant. Um, we will also defer to the fire marshall that he review the um turning radiuses and the widths of the fire apparatus access. Um um as stated in those emails and that he finds them to be acceptable on the plans. house. Um we will uh require um in accordance with the gateway suggestion that they utilize low luster glass. Um that they will um explore the possibility of introducing sidewalks into the premises other than on the road systems both from road and from Lime Street. Did we pick up both comments from the coastal? Um,

well, the other comment was that we were finding something reasonable. So, I guess we'd have to find it reasonable in order to do this. Okay.

Consider reducing the lighting. lighting. Oh, time time. Um uh yes, that lighting be placed on some kind of um a time sensitive um I don't know monitoring system so that the it's not on all night and that uh no signage will be well there that's not approved. We're not approving the signage. Okay. So we can make a note that the signage is coming back at a different for a different application. Do we have any time in mind that we'd like to see the lights go off or is we going to leave that to the discretion of the applicant

when it's going to be seasonally based? I think I mean obviously different now probably than it would be in July. So I'm not sure if you want to write something specific to the motion or you just want to leave it I think we should leave it to the uh discretion of the applicant. At least it won't be left on all night. Yes. Okay. Is there anything additional after what we've already conditioned? Okay. If not, then I will ask is there a second for the conditioned motion? Second.

Second. You can they were both the same time. You you can choose. Okay. Uh all in favor? I I opposed abstain. Okay. The application is approved. 5 0. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Are you recording? I was just going to ask if you were recording at this point. This is a I'm not taking any chances. I wanted two different ways to perfect. They had to add them back in.

Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay. The next um item on the agenda is case 258 West End Drive. Madam Secretary after this public hearing still open, right? It was never a public hearing. It's a coastal It was a site plan and again it had to be left open to receive keep comments back. Yep. And the address added. And the address added. Um, we have not heard back from Dee, so I don't know off you on that one either.

Um, but again, they have amended the application to include the additional address in time. So, Eric, are alternates allowed to speak right now or no? Of course. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, once we get into deliberation, once we get to the motion part of it and there your discussions on a motion, you can't talk at that point in time, but you were able to participate fully now at this point. Thanks. I just What I should have What I should have said is I requested you guys add that as condition.

I don't think there's any anything new. Okay. Lost air. Oh, there it is.

Sorry. Uh Tim Devaro with Taco. Uh thank you. Uh so from last time I was here, we discussed this application. This is a retaining wall with um along the shoreline that is that is coming apart uh literally at the seams and the proposal is to replace it with a new concrete wall uh and make some minor modifications which includes extending it about 10 ft and adding some steps. Um we made some corrections on the drawings where we added a third property here which is this sliver um uh adjacent to to this piece and uh added it added it on the application. So that that was done and I believe really and and that that aside from the de was was all that was uh was necessary. So we haven't heard from the DMV. So we have to answer any further questions.

Any additional questions? Um thanks Mr. Chairman. I do have a question. So when we look at um kind of FEMA and state guidelines on these issues, right, there's a strong preference for nonhardoning structures.

Correct. and the coastal management um uh rules say that you know if you're going to be putting in a hardening structure there should be some due diligence to demonstrate why that is the only thing that can be used here and so I'm just the application where do you demonstrate that all the other existing you know any other options are not feasible which include you know elevation and moving the property and such understand may maybe maybe this will clarify it a little bit more. Okay.

Um then if it's wasn't apparent in the application I apologize. Um at some point this beach had eroded where the elevation was a lot lower and this original wall was put in with the approval of the Connecticut D. Mhm. So their their charge is really as you know you know uh controlling managing erosion and control structures and they deemed that this was justified necessary at that time primarily to protect the foundations of these buildings. When was that again? I can't remember off the top of my head year I I I'm going to say I think it was I think it was about 04 2004 was the last time.

Okay. So, so, so this is simply a replacement of an existing authorized structure with some minor modifications. So, that's that was our approach and um we don't think that the conditions have changed. The fact that it's no no longer in the Connecticut Durisdiction is just a matter of mother nature. I think you said in your application I think maybe you were looking maybe for a little bit more Mary Gardner said there is no other suitable more natural and less environmentally in approach. Yeah, I mean to to expand on it, I mean to pro what we're really the purpose of these walls is exactly that it is it is a flood control erosion control structure and these houses are sus in particular these two houses because of their proximity to this jetty have a tendency to lose sand underneath them. So the potential for them to be the foundations to be undermined is great. So anything we can do to protect those two houses is is important. So I think I hope that answers your question

kind of. I mean there's other ways to protect the foundation such as elevating the house or house. Absolutely. And I'm asking more from a you know there's there's actually not a lot of hardening if you look on the aerial photos along old line, right? And so, you know, this is this is setting precedent. And so, I respect that 21 years ago there was a different there was an approval by DEP. And it's very unfortunate, Eric, that we didn't hear back from Deep. I'm not saying it's your fault. I'm just saying it's it's unfortunate because I and I'm just saying this to the

to the commission like something to to think about um going going forward. um you know this is going to set a a precedent and there have been changes in the conditions when you look at the historical where the water has gone there's been changes in the in the coastline in the last 20 years and there's every reason to believe that that's only going to continue correct

so um as we are I'm saying this to my fellow commission members as we're considering this case and kind of looking at where this is headed I'm not I'm not sure there's much we can do here, but I want it to go on record that this is this is a concern and this is um you know the idea of just putting in a hardening hardening structure because one existed which failed um is not necessarily the best long-term solution.

Yeah, I hear you that you're asking for applicants in the future to show more descriptively what other options were looked at and why they wouldn't be applicable, right? Other than we got to do it before. Well, I I I pretty sure there is language in the regulation, if I'm not mistaken, for structures that pre I thought it was 1968, but I think it's been updated to 1995. 1980 1980 is 1980, but has it been changed to 1995 now? No. 1980. Okay. So yeah, I knew there was a for dwellings that or existing homes that were built prior 1980. Y they allowed for flood and erosion control structures, just nothing built after that. Yeah. Go ahead.

Right. But that's a state statute. Must be right because it's not municipal town code. It's um Yeah, that's a deep coastal management. Camera pick up. Yeah. And I will say that before it got taken down, FEMA provided a website where you could see where they were anticipating high areas of coastal erosion. Yeah.

And can't get there anymore because it's taken down. But back when it was still up, um West End Drive of any place in Old Live is likely to have the greatest levels of erosion where you're going to get. Um and so as you go down West End Drive, um the houses there are all going to be at risk going forward. In fact, West End Drive itself is going to be at risk going forward.

Exactly. Exactly. And so which is why I'm saying so this is where we're talking about, you know, I mean, and we've seen this in other properties in town recently, the whole 50% rule, right, which is an existing regulation. If you increase by more than 50%, then you've got to elevate your house and such. And so I'm not saying that this is what's happening here, but um it there are houses that are doing in town that are elevating and moving moving away from the water. So again, I'm not suggesting this is something we can do in this case, but I did want that to be something we discussed tonight because of the precedent this is going to set and something we're going to have to face going forward.

I don't know if it's someone's going to set a precedent because all those houses would apply. they meet the threshold for being pre91980 except right except at a certain point the way the regulations from FEMA are written if you're kind of consistently showing that you're not making an effort to do something besides just hardening structures then you're undermining the overall principle of what the regulations are. My suspicion though again without comment from D it's hard to say for sure is that had this not been a site that already had some level of armoring you would not be getting permission to re to put new armoring in um the D is really

yeah frowning upon or even more than frowning upon new armoring where there is not already armoring of the coast because all you're doing is you're diverting the velocity two adjacent sites. So by having this this wall here, the adjacent sites will get worse flooding than they otherwise would have. And D says that's not a desirable thing to happen. So in a scenario like this, the ocean is infinite. So the version of the water is not going to stop the ocean. It's not going to stop it, but it will increase the velocity just like the underwater during less during lesser events. during the event this whole area is underwater. Yeah.

So, you know, and to Eric's point, the precedent would be that structures that are author previously authorized and existing could be repaired or replaced, which is pretty common. Yeah. So I mean so I don't see that this being something that people who do not have apartment structures will now come and say you gave it to them I want one. I don't that's that's not the same maybe apples to apples. No I appreciate that perspective.

Yeah. Just quickly I had asked a question last time and I wasn't sure I I just can't remember what the what the answer was to be honest with you. Um the proximity to the property line, the adjacent property line where the gabian is this one. The other Yeah, that side where the Yeah, where you have the L is that existing the L propos that's existing. What you're seeing right there, the proposed we bring it right height to the Yeah, that's what I that's what I was thinking. Could you show us that? Right.

And I had asked, you know, that was so I was asked so I was asking are we okay with bringing it right to the property line um rather than doing it on the existing footprint um and what's the rationale from a engineering perspective to do that versus where you know use going where the existing was which is you know a couple of feet off of the property line. I guess I I I mean whenever you're putting something right on the property line I always gives me a

don't recall the question but um but you know the the the answer is you know it had they had gone and gotten approval for one that was of this um geometry uh they should take advantage of their entire property And uh that's that's what we're asking for here. You know, if if that becomes a real sticking point, I I can tell you that that's not a musth have. Okay. Um so when it's right on the property line, how do you how do you construct it without impacting the other person's property?

Well, you you can install you can install shoring along the property line. It's excavating. You're on the beach. It's not really and and it's not terribly deep to begin with. So some temporary shoring or permission to and do we know how the h how putting that on the property line do we know if for example so this is what I don't know so I'm looking at the aerial photo of you know so it's existing and do I have erosion on this side so because what I don't want to create is a problem for the neighbors you're not creating anything that's different a little bit further in

well a little bit yeah but a little bit further in is on their property So, I'm looking at like now if I'm putting it right on the property line, what is it doing to the neighbor's property? Probably getting the sand to accumulate against it. So, now they have more land.

That's Well, that's what I you know, that's what I'm saying. It's not I I don't see it creating it's not we're not creating a channel that's going to that that we're we're there's a there's a lot of space in in between the the structures over here and we're not creating a channel that can create a lot of scour when flood waters recede and recede and that's really one of the biggest issues is when flood waters are receding is where we get a lot of these problems. Um but you know we we were mindful of that when we laid this out. Yeah, I think that's the public beach, right? Is that where their beach access is? Right there. I don't Well, is it? Yes. This is property of the association.

It's the association property. It's the association's property. And would because their property is so narrow would that restrict would if something h I'm just like if something happened right adjacent to the wall would it restrict the association access? I I'm just looking at like you know someone trying to do whatever they do down there carry down their sailboat or carry down their whatever. I just don't want to create a problem on the neighbor's property by moving it right onto the property boundary. I don't know how many feet it was off before, but huh. 10 feet.

10 feet. So, you're moving it 10 feet closer to the property line. And I'm just Well, do you need a variance in order to do that? Not for a wall. Not for Not for wall that height at least. Yeah. Scrap. Y. Okay. Yeah. Right. How about an a if it's on It's not on the It's not on their property on It's all on but it's on the property line. I don't know if I like approval to this is the existing you know be on their property during construction. So I guess is this driveway part of that property? I'm sorry. Like okay.

So is this driveway for that house or is this driveway that's his driveway? Right. Right. I'm a little disoriented here. Which is which? Oh, am I in the wrong spot? No, you're you're right. No. Well, so this is this is it. This is the it's this access. This is the association access. They have they have driveways over here at the risk. Sorry, we're trying to get this stuff on the record for the get for everybody here. So, if you're the record, I'm looking at an aerial vision of the map of the of the property's location. The question was which driveway was servicing which property and the answer on the record is the the prop the driveway in question was servicing adjacent property.

Okay, just so that again should this ever be looked at later, we've got something untaped that explains what everybody was talking about. Okay. Any other comments? I'm just saying I I'm looking at I'd really looking at staying with the same footprint and not extending the footprint of this. Okay. I see where you're going with that, Denise, because I was thinking that

if it's just instance, it's replacing a hardening structure with a with a new one to repair it, but the extension makes it makes it different. Not not a pure replacement. Do you do you have any reasons why that would why this would be better if it went protecting this whole lot? So, is it more protective to the right now? He's got a pinch point between his neck and he Yeah. You know, it it's uh giving him a

the further the further the further that you can create material sand here, the better it is for the house. But let me just say this. I don't want this application to be um impeded by an item that is that is concerning. All right. If if if it's um So you'd be okay if the commission said replace what's there? We would like to have the stairs, right? Okay.

Believe the stairs are beneficial for access to the beach. Um, but if you want to if you can condition it without us, I mean, we'll revise the drawings and submit them to the town. But if you want to condition an approval on replacement in kind footprint only on the on the footprint. Yeah. Okay. Then that that's perfectly accepted. Okay. Or can you just clarify for me? Is your point over is this the property here or is it this property? It's it's both of both. I understand that. So these two together and then so previously here's the here's the old so it's right there connecting it to the house

the deck may have been added but this is an existing wall right here but I'm seeing the Are you asking about the deck? Yeah, the deck is just um there are loose planks on grade. There's no physical connection to the structure. That's new. Did did I thought I uh when we met last month on this um there was a suggestion to send it to flood and erosion. Did did they take a look at it? They had I not heard back from them either at this point in time. It was shipped to them. I don't know when they make it through since Okay. So we have no comments from them.

Okay. Thanks. Okay. There's some conversation down that end of the I was just looking at what part of the deck was going to be removed. I'm sorry. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, is the commission good with approving the coastal site plan with replacing the existing staying within the staying within the existing footprint?

It's not something is it it's not really staying within the it's coming out a little bit, right? No, it's no I guess I didn't know what that approach is. That's the back side of this footing there. Yeah. Well, so when we say maybe footprint is not necessarily the right word if we say no further encroachment. Okay, we'll use that language. Um because it is it is wider at the base. But you're not extending beyond. We're not saying we're not extending extending. We're coming in.

Okay. Any other questions? We ready to make some sort of a decision? Okay. Make a motion that I'll make a motion that we approve his application um including the stairs um on the um original uh encroachment um rather than in the extent with the extension that you're showing on your plans and that you'll revise your plans and get them over to Eric sometime after the approval. So, we've got a a record set. Anything else? Second.

Second by Denise. All in favor of that revised motion for approval. I opposed. Okay, we've uh approved it based on without further encroachment, whatever that means. Okay. Okay. That sounds No, it's not Eric. Oh, it's on for receipt and said for hearing next month, but it's not. We can't act on it tonight. Okay.

Um, no. We're just to get a basically we're going to I just give a brief. Okay. Why don't you? But it's it's going to be a few minutes if it's going to take a little while to get to enough. Oh yeah. Yeah. It is going to be on but not for like it can't be acted upon tonight. So you

Okay. So it looks as if we have three public hearings to set. Receive and set. They're not all public hearings.

All right. We have one public hearing, one coastal site plan, two coastal site plans. Okay. First one, proposed adoption of this is uh proposed adoption of comprehensive revised zoning regulations. The purpose of the proposed revisions is to modernize, clarify, and update the town zoning framework in accordance with current planning objectives and applicable state statutes. Oldline zoning commission is the applicant with an additional note that the proposed revision will include a complete reformatting of the regulations. An appendix has been included with the proposed revision to allow users to see where in the new regulations sections of the prior versions have been included.

Um, just came in at 4:00 today, which is why you haven't previously seen this, but um, I had indicated that we wanted to have something for the public to be able to understand what this rag says or does. So that's what FHI has drafted for us. You can take a look at that. Um obviously it can be amended. It's not on the website or anything yet. U but you know you had had this discussion about how to break down what you were looking at in a way that made it clearer to the public that this was not the sort of full rewrite that's going to come next year.

And this would be a handoff. Is that it to the Yeah, we're going to put this on the theoretically put this on the web page as well as the the rag so that people can understand what we're looking at as far as this proposal goes. Okay. So, so the one comment that I would have on this is that we simply add another one or two sentences on what phase two will be that this is not. I think I'd like to see a list of the definitions that were added like a context list of the actual that's going to take up like pages um one page like this. Okay. Um

I'm not saying to add the definitions. I'm just saying put a list of them so people want to seek it and yes

I thought we said somewhere was in one of the messages from Franchesca that there was going to be an appendex that did identify what changes were made. Where did I read that? Well, in the application itself it says that there's an appendix that tells you where things ended up. Yeah. So yeah, that is the kind that'll have that. Will that address what you're talking about? No, I just think if if we it says def um provide additional zoning terminology definitions including providing definitions for an additional 31 terms. Yeah, they can go hunt through which one is the chain. I don't know if it could just you fit 31 words on one page.

Yeah, we can include that. It shouldn't be too hard to do that. I mean, obviously in the the slightly previous version of this, you had it colorcoded. The ones we adopted are not going to be colorcoded. Um, so we can certainly make sure that there is a version that that is out there that shows the color coding of that. So, we can do that as well. Yeah, it's not color coding. Just an additional page on here that has those color coding could start to introduce more confusion than necessary. It's just asking for 30 a list with 31. I will make I will make sure we have that list. Um,

so, so I mean, do we need want to just continue this ongoing conversation we've been having? So, okay. So, that's great. Appreciate that. It'll go on the website. You guys have done a good job putting the information on there. Um, uh, and I agree that we need to be clear about what phase two is going to be. Um, what else do we need to communicate out and how else I'm asking the group and how else do we think it should be done to be consistent with our intentions stated at the outset that we're going to be as transp um and inclusive as possible throughout the process. I

mean, this is going in the first electron's newsletter for next week here for whatever that's worth. Not a lot. We can put out the front portion of the town website, but then the question is how do we get broader than that? Um and certainly I can work with expecting Elizabeth Regan to still be here, but she's gone at this point. You can certainly talk to the local newspapers that sort of thing.

Um, beyond that, um, I'm not sure how you want to deal with social media or things of that sort. That was sort of we got bogged down last time. So, the one thing that we know we're going to be engaging all of the commissions in phase two because we're going to be doing, you know, that's the real substantial stuff, but um should we be making sure that they all have notice so that you're directing so that all the commissions knows that phase one is is here, this is where we are, and that they all get noticed because there's a lot of people on those commissions. We did that already. No, but I'm saying the notice of the public hearings is complete. Oh, it's complete. Yes. Yeah. So that they all know.

Yeah. Like an update almost. Yeah. Kind of just give them an update and let them and once we you know once we set the date then they'll know. Yeah. That's a great idea because I think that there's a whole lot of people involved with all the commissions in town. So if all the town if you know if all the commissions get that should be good. Okay. There's a that's pretty detailed. It's good. Um, is it worth couple of sentences up front just to pull out the highest points that this is not a rewrite? It's a cleanup. There are no substantive changes in there. And people who are really interested in the details are going to are going to actually break out the draft.

Try and I'm happy to try and distill this down to a couple of basic sentences. Yeah. just like no more than three to five sentences in in bold print. The executive executive summary the the yeah white paper executive white paper not a full page just so that the the the the three to five key takeaways are right up front. Eric, do you do you want me to do that? Sure. I know I know you've got a lot on your plate and then we can do what we did last time when I did that and I'll send it to you and then you send it back out to the commission. Perfect. What do you if you have time to do it, I'm more than happy to have you take that responsibility. I know what time you don't have. So that's fine. Um and 80% of the people will probably be able to stop there and

right and get on. Okay. 90%. And I know Michael, you had the whole issue regarding that one definition we were still sort of struggling with. Are you good with it that now or Yeah. Do you want to review briefly what that because Okay. Yeah. That was a close conversation. And I I was hoping why don't you explain what your concerns were and then we can sort of go from there. In the in the last car or the the last set of modifications from from uh FHI, there were those two definitions for professional got my notes. So let's look at definitions here.

Well, no, this is for this is different. This is for services that were basically taking place at the site of the uh commercial use versus commercial services that were done basically remotely. I and I as I read them I I I found that there was a professional services establishment and a professional office and the the the professional office was more uh doctors, dentists, legal accountant that were would be providing services to to clients that were generally members of the public. And then the other one was more of a businessto business flavor to it. And and as I read it, I I thought it was ambiguous in what what the difference between them was because it wasn't written clearly to differentiate who the clientele was. And then I looked at the use tables and the way it was written, we could put a doctor's office in LI80. It was it was a a permitted use there. There already is uh I guess is learn do they have any sort of

learn but but they're a they are an educational resource business so they work with schools they don't work with generally with with yeah I looked at them first to see what okay and again the two ones are business service establishment and professional office and I can read those two definitions so those were were the revision the revised one they're the the professional office was more wordy in the in the first ref.

Yep. Yep. Professional office. A space primarily used for providing direct professional services to individuals or members of the general public. This includes but not limited to services in the financial, medical, dental, business consulting, legal or other professional fields. The primary activity is the delivery of expertise and personalized service to clients. The space typically features limited storage for office supplies and client related materials with minimal to no stock for resale accessory to the primary service. That's professional office. So the example we used for the for the retail part of it was an optometrist that might sell classes.

Um business service establishment, a commercial space dedicated to providing support services to other businesses, organizations or individuals. These services are typically administrative, technical, operational or fieldbased in nature and are delivered on or offsite. Examples include support, administrative and back office functions, cleaning and maintenance, courier and delivery, IT support, printing and copying, and property maintenance. Uh, this use excludes retail sales to the general public, motor vehicle services, storage, contractor's yards, data centers, or industrial manufacturer manufacturing uses.

What I don't want to see happen is like your electricians get caught up in is there a contractor? It's not a contractor storage yard, but that to me would be a maintenance or a I I feel like that would fall under that that definition. Yeah. That's that's I'm just making sure I get that that am I interpreting that correctly? I think so. Yeah. The the the intent is to avoid having a storefront if they if they dispatch their services then that would fall into the and that's and for what zone or that's just the definition? Well, right now the the use tables currently still have professional services which would be the doctor lawyer accountant in in um all four, right? Well, let let's go back and take a look.

All right, while you're doing that, let me jump in and give a time check. It's 9:23. We have a hard stop at 10:00. We have two more applications to set. We have an informal discussion that we need to get through and we need to do zoning minutes. So, I would ask us to be a little quicker and concise on this right here. Do you have a recommendation, Michael? No, I just wanted to make sure that

the other mic. Sorry. Right next to professional office is presently allowed um in the LI. So that's that that's your concern is that you could have allowed in there. No, it's it's it's allowed in C. He just said so it is allowed in the LI and the C. Yes. Okay. All right. I'm sorry. His concern is that you're going to lose your LI to these sorts of professional uses because those seem to be more prevalent than more of the industrial uses. Yeah. Because you have that industrial building that's empty right at the corner of Hatchet Hill, right? But they're trying to market to doctors,

right? So that's why I I assumed we were going to discuss it and I I was just raising it. Do we want to see an accountant's office with with with the public general public traffic in LA? I think this to your point Paul to I mean are we in a rush? Do we have to have the public like can we maybe move to these other things and then come back to this so if there is more dialogue and the time of Yeah. Okay. Here's what I would suggest. One of you I would rather we do this and postpone other things.

I I think what you really need to do most urgently is just set the public hearing on this for January and then we'll we can keep discussing it. But at least let's get the motion to set the public hearing out of the way and then we can keep going because that way that the business portion of what you need to do is is address. Okay. Well, let's do that and let's do the next two. Set those and then we'll go back to this discussion. At what point does the referral at what point does the the referral to planning happen? It's already happened. We already because we might want to make sure we ship that out essentially to give everybody as much time as possible. Do they have the December 3rd draft? Yeah,

they have the December 3rd draft at this point in time. We can always give them new updated drafts. At least at this point I given that we have deadlines we had to start moving on. I wanted to get it to them as early as possible. It's already been referred out at this point and we can make those changes at the public hearing. Well, yeah. I mean, the whole reason you have a public hearing. Okay. So, then we don't need to talk about it anymore. That's good enough. Give that a heads up and move on. Yeah. We can close it. Move it on. If we come up with something, we can still change them. Okay. This is not going to go into the books as is. You're free to play with it more. That's why we're going through the process. I think that's what we were. As long as no ships have sailed, we're done. Okay. So, let's set the public hearing on that.

Yep. So, I'll take an uh motion that we set the public hearing for the regulations um uh for the January 12th 12th, 2026 zoning commission meeting. Is there a second? Second. Second by Mr. Fiano. All in favor? Opposed? Abstain. What? I think Veterans Day. No, it's not Jan January 12th. I just Listen, here's my concern again. We're going against what we've already addressed of the lack transparency. So January 12th is going to be the public hearing. It's currently December 8th. There's a whole slew of holidays.

Yes. Well, my suggestion and it's already sort of been put out there is I think you're probably going to keep the public hearing open until February at that that point in time. Doesn't have to end on it doesn't have to end. doesn't have and but give it up for three months and I think it should be at least 65 days. No, no, not at all. This is your application. You can keep the public hearing open forever. Okay. Okay. You are not subject to state statute on this. Okay. You have the public hearing open July if you want to. I don't recommend that,

but no, you Yes, I I understand uh Mary Gardner, but I think the answer is open it and then just announce the beginning of the meeting. We will be keeping this hearing open till February because we understand that people have not always get not had sufficient time to get back to us. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate the clarification. Actually are okay. So we got that voted. Okay. Next one. Special permit application in coastal site plan 80-1 Lime Street. That's for the Lime Academy College of Fine Arts application to extend inst educational institutional use to adjacent property. Um, take a motion to set that for

Well, we have someone here who wants to make sure you set it for January that they were really very concerned that you guys would not set it for January because of your other public hearing that night. So, well, we can we can set it. Um, if we don't get to it, we won't we won't get to it. for January. Okay, we'll set it for J. Is there a second? Second. Okay, all in favor? I opposed. Abstain. Okay, that's for January. And the next one is Coastal Site Plan 11 Seaside Lane. It's for Town of O line. That's the applicant is a Town of O line application to remove and replace the villion all with an existing footprint.

This is a CAM, so you can hear on it tonight, but you can't actually take action on it tonight. So, I don't know how much you want to hear on it. Oh, okay. Well, it's for the town. Do we really need to hear about anything? Well, be brief. How's that? Okay. Okay.

Um, so we're um DACA was retained, Tim Dearole with Do um the uh DACA was retained by the town to uh design a new pavilion at White Sands Beach. what's there now is is is not in good shape. It's old. It's it's reached the end of its service life. Um these are some some 3D images of what what is uh proposed. The big differences here is that what's there now has 14 columns posts supporting the canopy. We're replacing it with only four. Um and what's also the big difference here is what's there now is not FEMA compliant. Um it uh it would create a lot of debris. This is the three things that three of the things that make it FEMA compliant is that the uh canopy is higher. The eve is higher by about three feet. Um the by about 2 ft. The floor which is currently a timber deck that you step up onto is not is now a frangible concrete slab with a with a protective concrete bulkhead around it. Um and it's only 6 in above the existing grade. Um and uh these these columns are designed these are actually piles that are driven into the deep into the ground that uh instead of being on spread footings we are in a VE zone high velocity zone VE elevation 14 the underside of these beams need to be at 15. So we've taken we've made this roof

as shallow as practical as we can for shing for asphalt shingle and uh this is the design. It's located in the same spot. It is the exact same dimensions. It is about 75 ft from Lambert of the current CJL. Um so uh the the the work is going to be pretty um traditional. The existing structure gets demolished. The air the work area is really tight around the structure. Uh it's it's it's or it's it's intended to be the town would like to have this new structure built before Memorial Day of 26. So, uh, we're looking to get this thing through as quickly as we can. Um, so ideally this

I retract my statement from earlier. If you can get an approval tonight, I think you should take it. Unfortunately, they can't. I thought you said management. It has to go to for 35. I think I heard you say that's fine. I think it's fine because um, we're going to still have, you know, lead time with contractors. So um so this is really the footprint. Um not much else other the rest of these drawings are are very structural in nature but it's it's really been designed to be uh to really be um FEMA compliant is the big is the big term here. What do they use this for now?

It's a neighborhood gathering. It's a wonderful town entity uh amenity. It's it's beautiful. Oh, in the summertime this place a sliver. Not without getting a sliver. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's all it's all the wood timber right now. Uh so so this is this is designed. So what we did just you know not to be but just to keep it it is because the floor is lower and the ceiling is higher. It does look rather tall. 11 feet

you know. So, we've added these we've added these pedestals in that are in that are um integral to the columns. These are concrete that these are steel piles driven into the ground. These are so these are concrete components that are cast again in with the columns and um and these uh these these braces sort of take uh take away from the from the height um the visual height difference. So that's where we are. the like I said the contractor will come in they'll demolish the structure they'll drive the new piles they'll cast the concrete um they'll build the um the canopy in place uh this these columns are wrapped in uh ASAC in so uh nothing in here uh what's up above is all uh pressuret treated heavy timber um it's meant to have an architectural design to it. So, it's open construction underneath. You look up, you see the rafters, you see uh tongue groove decking,

hurricane clamp, hurricane clamp, everything. Yep. And bolted. So, is it ADA accessible? Yes, it is. There's a there's a sidewalk there currently and that's got to get that there's a deck, timber deck that goes up to the to the to the floor there now. And that's getting replaced with a concrete ramp. Oh, ramp. Okay. Yeah. And I know at least when my kids would go down there, there used to be picnic tables. I knew there there are no picnic tables in Well, there could there would I imagine there would be when it's done. So standing under there.

I don't know. It's a good place for a kegger. other places and it's not very rainproof. We did make the we did make the canopy a little bit wider to offer some a little bit more shading so it has like a three-foot overhang all around. Yeah, but it's so tall unless you're like on a hammock underneath the roof line.

FEMA is FEMA. We got to make it FEMA compliant. There's no no way around it. It's in the V zone because we actually asked the state, you know, it's a town thing and basically I heard back from Diana within like minutes saying you should be setting examples for everybody else. You need to do this so that everybody else has, you know, so Diane was having no so. Okay. So So at exactly noon, there'll be some Well, when the sand shifts there, it won't look so tall. Right. That's right. But it'll have a sandy floor. That's right. Sandy bottom. It's going to have a water floor. Okay. So, are we going to do

Are we going to do this uh February or are we going to do this in January? That's up to you folks. Um a special meeting. Well, no. I mean, remember folks, at this point, the only thing we're waiting for is is for our own projects. The only thing we're waiting for is D to get back to us. So if you want to put this first next meeting and take care of it in three minutes. Let's let's make it first for January. Okay. Because that way you know again you want to leave waiting for for substantive new information. So just take put it first on the agenda take care of it be done. So I'll take a motion that we set this for the January. You're just tableabling it now. You don't need there's no public hearing. So all you're doing is you're just tableling it the next meeting. Fine. Okay. Yeah. All right.

Yeah. Make sure it gets on first. All right. 20 minutes left. Um we have an informal pre-application review 230 Shore Road for profit educational institution. So this came in today this hopefully.

Hi. Hi. Um I'm Courtney Herzler. I'm the owner of Bloom Behavior and Consulting Services here with Hi, I'm Kirk Dfeld. I represent the owner of the build very shortly.

Uh so we've been looking for a while. So Bloom BCS is both an outpatient um clinic provider for ABA services, applied behavior analysis for children diagnosed with autism. Um so we do a lot of outpatient clinic based services. We also do a lot of consulting to local school districts and inhome services. Recently, we also opened a um private school. It's currently located in Ledger. We've been looking for a very long time to try to find a spot where all of our services can come together under one roof. Um we fell in love with building and realized that the special permit use is only currently for nonprofit educational facilities. Um and we are considered for-profit. Um, so we were hoping to introduce who we were, um, discuss if there was any way to consider, I guess, how it's zoned, um, currently, um, to apply for a special permit for, I think, a BC30S use.

So, we allow for education.

Yes. But in talking with Jade about this that the issue back when this was all being originally thought out was you had a lot of schools like ITT and other sort of forprofit colleges or what places that were trying to make money on trade schools whatever else and that was largely determined to be sort of a scam or whatever else. So you guys at that point in time did not want for-profit schools. Now if there's a way to define this so you're not allowing all for-profit schools but are just allowing sort of this subset of them. We can certainly try and tailor a definition. I could certainly work with uh the uh the tenants on that sort of thing to come up with how we can define this in a way that you're not potentially opening the door to a broad category of schools. But you again at the moment they're just not allowed anywhere in the town.

But the other part of this is that there's a clinic attached to this and the clinic is if you can give me a little bit more information on the clinic.

Yeah. So that's where um usually it's early intervention. So young kiddos would come and go throughout the day receiving sessions for therapy basically. Um don't know if you guys know a behavioral approach um Davis West uh they do the same services we provide um provide the same services we provide. So outpatient AVA services as well as then they also did just open their own school over there too. Um so very similar in nature. Um sizes of business are somewhat comparable or a little bit different in some of our models. But um that outpatient model is children coming and going to receive therapy from our board certified behavior analysts and registered behavior technicians. So, it's really helping them learn how to communicate, regulate challenging behaviors, learn help their families understand their diagnosis, and then help them create plans to become more active members of the community.

So, the individuals are not being funneled into the educational side of the business. Correct.

No. Correct. So, the educational side is actually at this time very small. Um it's a very specific niche. We only have five students enrolled currently. Um we do have a special education teacher. Every student is staffed onetoone. Um that's why when we looked at the property, it's kind of designated on the first floor two separate areas. Um so that we could clearly define where the outpatient services were happening and then the educational use would be happening. Um but we want to keep it that way. We'd like to keep it very small um because of the nature of what we do and kind of why we opened it in the first place. The school part isn't where the children are grouped together. It's still a one-on-one Yeah.

thing. And why do you call it a school then rather than some more behavioral therapy

because it is um so it's technically considered what's called an ABS? So it's a priv. it's a approved private special education program through the state. Um so when districts need additional resources or they don't know how to program for that student, then they call us. Um and then that's when we take that student and provide an individualized method of learning through the special education teacher and typically they're onetoone. Um so there is some small group learning that can happen as a lot of onetoone though too because of their level of need. So you could think about how because that's that's really quite a different approach than a a standard school.

Yes. But the school piece of it as I I understood it was sort of the accessory function here. Yeah. But they're still getting it's it this particular student has to have this type of schooling because regular school um and and that by and large it's one special ed teacher and one special ed student getting instruction. They may be doing their reading, math and other stuff but it's really primarily because of the special needs of child. Are you planning on occupying how much space in that building? Is it the whole building or so? Roughly 6,000 but roughly 17,000 square feet.

Separated between the first and second floors or just the first floor? Majority of the first floor. Um we are looking at potentially depending on my budget. Uh second floor offices for administrative use but not for students.

Not as part of this original lease agreement or anything. No. And so if we're trying to kind of carve out some kind of special language that would permit this type of for-profit school, um I mean where could we look for language? Like I mean is there like special tax code language that sets you a apart from I mean I think you heard what Eric was saying and that's how that would differentiate you. Is there already some regulatory issues or or what would differentiate you? um what we're approved through under the state to kind of describe what the private ed program looks like and it's a very specific discipline. So maybe some language around that and how it's tailored to the very specific special education needs um because there's very strict standards are to meet with the state too. So um it can't just be a place where large groups of children get dropped off anyways, right? Um, so there might be some verbiage that I could find in there that maybe we could use to look at that perhaps.

The way you operate is it only on referral from another authorized school. So basically you're operating like it's almost like a satellite for you know for for either I'm sure you take private schools too but you know public or private schools. another entity and you're kind of doing a satellite service for them and maybe that's the way we can talk about this. I ask exactly a question. So your customers are the schools not the individual. Yeah, that's marketing. Yeah. Oh, and I think that's where we could probably write language that way. Yeah, I think that's

Eric. I think you ought to see if you can continue a conversation and see if we can get to some language that. Okay. Then the next question because we have said up until now that phase one is strictly for essentially recodifying right

when we come up with this would you like them to then file the application on their behalf or I mean because that way it's they are doing it rather than us doing it and that way we can stay part of we're just doing this they would then come in with the language asking to be incorporated into this. I mean, chances are you're going to have counsel, I would imagine. Maybe you're going to represent yourself. I have no idea. But if you do get counsel to represent you in the application for the regulation amendment because that's what you're going to be seeking. Um, they might be able to also offer you some language that might help tailor to these concerns or the school without having to use Eric's resources. No, I'm happy to Okay. play with it. I think the the actual application probably has to come from

Correct. That's what I'm saying. And don't wait around on us for phase two. Like if you need it, you needed to apply it. Do that. because phase two is going to take us too long. I was just going to say, so what is your timing just for our understanding? So your ideal timing? Yeah. So I I need a spot for students prior to the start of summer. Um so so like before June. Yeah. Yeah. So and how long would it take you to do whatever modifications you need would need to do in the building? Uh not long set up for us. Yeah. So if they if you guys were able to get a application together for a regulation amendment, submit it by our January meeting so that way they can possibly set it for the February meeting. Right.

That would be my um clarify is but this school use will always be accessory to your other use, right? You're not going to have a correct. Yes. Because to me that's the way to make it um that's the other way. Individualistic. Yeah. Oh. set up the other aspect of what you do just so they can have a a private and then the question for the commission is do we want to try and make this slightly broader or do we want to limit it just to essentially this exact use question would be then Eric so let's just say you're wildly successful and within a year you have to go someplace else and now this is it's zoned

well not only for this but anywhere in the C30 right anywhere in the C30 would be able to use what other uses would we're going to have to look at. Not only is it how tightly is it tailored? That's exactly it. But so consequences. Absolutely. I think that that it's pretty safe to very closely tailor it because this is how you learn whether these uses are actually desirable or not. I was going to say it needs to be tailored to take care if we're interested in having this particular application. And we closely tailor it as close as possible. And because you're the applicant, you can as as tightly as possible. You can narrow it down as tight as we need it to be narrow.

Right. It's a good opportunity to create a good and I mean it'd be nice to I mean that plaza's been dying for new life, right? So I think that's a good opportunity. Good service, too. Correct. Okay. I I think we have some parameters to work with folks here and we'll get moving on this. Okay.

Thank you. That was a productive night. Yes, it was. Well, one more thing. Minutes. We have What minutes? Yeah. No. Helena. Approval of November 10th regular meeting and November 17th special meeting. have um do I have a motion for that approval? There's a motion. There a second. Is there any discussion on those minutes? None. So then approval of the November 10th and 17th minutes as presented. All in favor? Opposed? Abstain. Thank you. And

that was Denise, right? That was Denise was a second. Okay. Motion to adjurnn. Second, Denise second and favor. Same coffee sandwich for 26 years. Thank you. Long night. Hey folks, everyone may have a second. Let me turn everything off.

Relax the water.

Awesome.