Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Okay. Good evening everyone. Um, welcome to the April meeting of the O line zoning commission. Today being Tuesday, April 13, 2026. At the table this evening, Mary Joe Nosel and Denise Savage Joe, permanent members. We have our secretary um Jane Marsh, alternates Michael Peter Barnes, Mary Garden and Copala, Eric Knap, our land use coordinator on the um jumbotron tonight. Our Michael Fiano, he is a full-time member. Welcome, Michael. And we also have Francisco Gomes um who is the lead consultant that we have for the old lime zoning regulations. uh discussion later on in tonight's agenda. So before we begin, does anyone in the audience have any comments on any of the items in tonight's agenda?

Not which are subject to public hearing just because if it was public hearing, they had to speak during the public hearing, right? So we don't want them talking about items that are otherwise being covered. Okay. Okay. I stand corrected. Okay. Does anybody have any public comments that are I gota I got to corral this thing because you know we could be here all night with these comments. You know they might not be related. Okay.

All right. All right. I'm going to assume that we are good. So we'll move on to the agenda. Our first item on the agenda is um the special permit application and coastal site plan for 77-1 and 77-2 Lime Street at the request of the applicant. This hearing, this public hearing is now moved to the May 11th, 2026 meeting. There will be no public hearing or discussion on this subject here tonight.

Before you just go, I know Jane raised with me the issue that when they come back that this may be sufficiently different that it may require them to withdraw and reapply. Um I did prepare a motion to deny tonight if that's what you guys were up to to doing. Um, however, I would recommend and the past practice has always been that if someone requests time to come in with an amendment that we allow them time to do that. Um, at this point, um, add one person who's coming in.

Okay. Um, again, at this point, they have hired U. Marjorie Shansky as an attorney. They are having revised plans. We have not seen the revised plans at this point in time. Um, I am anticipating getting them in advance of the next meeting sufficiently that I can review them and get them out to you ahead of time. But, um, again, Jane did contact me and say she was concerned that what they would be submitting is sufficiently different that it would not be covered by the application. It would require them to withdraw and start over again. And I don't know if you want to speak any further on that at this point. Yeah, that's the only thing is that that if we can't really make that determination for them until they submit everything, then they just have to

Okay. That's fine. I'm just at this point that Marjgeri specifically said, "Can you please allow us to continue to May 11th?" And I would just request that that be the case. Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. What was the basis for the request to extend it a month? Okay. Um, if you recall at the last meeting, yeah, there were a whole bunch of various issues regarding compliance with the zoning regulations. they are going to be amending their plan to address the concerns raised at the last meeting. This was like the step back and

yeah they they basically said we agree that you've raised points that we haven't well addressed. We would and they've yet they hired an attorney to help address some of those points. We would because they just hired the attorney like last week and she early she had a chance to get up to speed and they don't have a their new plan's finally revised. They're saying, "Look, we need more time.

We need more time." So that's that's why they've asked until May to come back on this. And again, the practice has always been if the if you have time on the public hearing, and again, it's only been open for a month now, to just extend it out at an applicant's request to allow them the opportunity to come back. And again, if it comes back so wildly different it doesn't seem like the same plan, at that point, you can say, "Folks, withdraw the previous application. please resubmit with a new application that covers your new your new proposal. As James said, we don't know what it's going to look like. So, right now, we're sort of stuck in limbo on the situation. So, okay,

Eric, just quickly from a procedural perspective, do we we had voted to start the or or do the public hearing tonight? Do we have to vote on this new date? I would prefer if you voted to leave the public hearing open for another month, but it's not required technically. just I think it would be a good practice to do so. Okay, I'll make that motion. Okay. Is there a second? Seconded by Jane Marsh. All in favor to move this public hearing to the May 11th uh 2026 meeting. I I I Okay, I guess it's been approved. Michael, Mr. Foliano, are you voting?

Oh, okay. Yeah. We we haven't been able to hear him. So, what's the question marks? I seen the next Yeah, he he may be trying to give a comment. We're not see. So, let me see if I can figure out a way to do this without wearing your steers here. Um, no. Text him. Why don't you try and text him and see if we can figure out what's going on with him? Okay. Meanwhile, again, I would just move to the next two items since again, we're not really in controversial territory. So, we can skip the next item, which is the um the old business and move to

move to receipt and setting of public hearings for new cate. Am I coming through now? Yes, you're coming through now. Michael, can you hear us? Yeah, I can. And I was an eye. Okay. Well, I'm glad that we're hearing you now. I'm glad I have questions.

The motion to uh postpone or continue this public hearing to next month is approved. 5 0. Okay. We have case 26-7 C. A special permit application of coastal site plan 18 Oldshore Road. construct a new 4bedroom 5240 ft single family residence within the Gateway Conservation Zone in RU40. Eric and Charles Stone are the applicants. Um I will make a motion. Well, before you do anything, there's a brief presentation I guess that the applicant wants to put on for you this evening here.

If you would like, I can give you just a five minute overview of the project so you understand it. Sure, that would be great. Get ready for next month, please. Sure. Excellent. Thank you. Uh so for the record, Joe Ren of Indigo and Old Sabbrook, uh we will make this short and brief. The Is the easel okay or will that be a little too far away? Kind of the center center court here would be fine.

Yeah. Thank you. I'll actually just do this. I think it'll be easier to see. Um so this project is at 18 Old Shore Road. Um, currently, if you're familiar uh with this triangular uh intersection with Button Ball that goes off this way, uh there's some vacant land right at that intersection. There are actually two lots there. There's another vacant lot here. Um and then 18 Old Shore Road is this vacant lot that's essentially right across from that that triangle triangular island there. Um so, as I said, it's a vacant lot. There are inland wetlands here highlighted in green and shaded in gray. There are also tidal wetlands along here. Um the 100 foot buffer from the wetlands is in pink here. The 50 foot buffer from the title wetlands is in pink dashed and then yellow is the 100 foot from the coastal resource. So you can see that we've kept all of the development completely outside of all those buffers. There's also a flood zone that comes in here. So on the house side, this is not in the flood zone. This isn't um as far as gateway, this is right on the very fringe um of Gateway. I think it's the last property. If this property was across the street, it would not be in Gateway. So it's right on the fringe of uh Gateway. And this will be uh referred to then. They did give it Gateway did give this a preliminary look already. Really the only question they

had was about the temporary uh soil stockpile area in Phil whether that was going to be like the big mountain of fill brought in on the site. But there will be fill for the construction of this project. But that's just our normal top soil stockpile area when all the top soil gets stripped off temporarily stored and then respread after construction. Um so the reason why this has to come before you is the house cumulative cumulatively um including the garage all the spaces over 60 covered porches uh is over 4,000 square feet. So it requires a special permit from zoning commission. So that's why uh we are in front of you. So it's right on the fring of gateway. It's in gateway. It's over 4,000 ft. So it has to come to you for a special permit. Now mind you, you would still get a CAM anyways a new house in the coastal area resource zone, but that would be a site that is supposed to a special permit. Wouldn't require public hearing. So there we are.

Yes. And um before last October, this probably would have been exempt from CAM because it was a single family house more than 100t away from the coastal resource with the change as of last October 1st. Um it does require CAM, but we don't see any issues with uh CAM. We have silt vents. Again, we're outside of all the resource buffers and we also have two dry wells. It's very good sand and gravel soils. We have two dry wells. One on this side for the driveway in the garage area and then one on this side for the remainder of the of the the run for the house. So, it's all going underground reducing the uh service round as much as possible. All right.

Any initial questions? I know that the development another development off of button ball one of the issues for the town was there was runoff onto the road and there was a lot of uh controversy over that. How are you proposing to deal with that in this case because you've got the state road and you've got button ball there.

Um yeah, so there's there's no state road um but this is only construction of one house. I know button ball is more than one house um cumulatively. So there's a lot more land clearing here. This is just a meadow. So there's was not clearing of one tree for for the development of this proposed plan. Um there were some dead trees along the road that they uh took down um before, but as far as this this is just an open meadow uh right up to the tree line. You can see the the tree brush line here. So we're not clearing anymore. It's just a it's an open meadow. Um the site generally the road is higher than the site and the site tails off this way. So there's no chance for anything to get to the road. Um it would all go back on the site and then there's silt fence all around the buffers to hold any uh any um mud or runoff from going toward these resource buffers.

I suspect on button ball the other side there there's also a great deal more ledge which has stopped a lot of the water from infiltrating here. I don't think there's any ledge. It's all sort of and it's up on the hill so it's got the storm. is flat. Yeah, that's kind This is kind of inverted. It's a little lower than the road where that's higher than the road. With shallow ledge, you can't absorb like they were just mentioning, you can't absorb a lot of water into the ground. This is very deep sand and gravel. 9 10 ft of really good sand and gravel before you hit the water table. So, it's excellent for drainage. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Number one. So need a motion to

make a motion that we set this public hearing for next month in May. Is there a motion? So moved by Jane Marsh. Is there a second? Second. Second by uh Denise Savajjo. All in favor? I opposed. Okay. Case is set 500 next month.

All right. Case 26-8C, special permit application in coastal site plan 15 Smith Neck Road for the construction of an addition to an existing four-bedroom residence, increasing the total floor area to proposed 9,720 square ft on a property located within the Gateway Conservation Zone. Are you 40 applicant Charles Valente 2010 trust? Is there anyone here to Oh, good evening again for the record.

He had repeat um Joe Ren, professional engineer of Indigo and Old Sabri again for the record. Um very um somewhat similar to the last one with the exception of the yellow on here are existing structures uh on the house. There's also um a pool, an ingground pool over here that's not highlighted. Um what's being proposed are these red additions. So the two central additions are open porches and they're just basically closing in the roof porches. Uh here there's an addition and then there's a screen porch on that end and then this is the larger addition on this end of the house. So again, the reason why we're here is be is because of coastal area management and because of the special permits the house cumulatively not only the main house but also uh there's garage uh there's a a small living space guest house over here and a small shed cumulative gross floor area on here exceeds 9,000 square feet and your overall maximum limit is 4,000 in the gateway zone. Of course this one's also in Gateway. Um, Gateway did look at this one preliminary just like the last one. Um, they have no comments on this one. Uh, so far that's right.

This is something new. So, we all get new toy, right? Um, but on this one, the property is so large. It's over nine acres. Um this green line here is actually the 100 foot. So the wetlands are way over here um the coastal resource and then it's another 190 ft to the nearest edition. So we're almost 300 ft away from the coastal resource here. Uh so there's no uh no opportunity for any um adverse impact on the coastal resource. Of course there'll be tilt fence around the construction but it's just it's it's very limited. It's just a long gently sloped meadow all the way down.

Do you have will you have pictures of what it looks like from the water? Um from the water on this one? I believe that the architect does. Yes, the architect's not here tonight, but I believe me. Did Gateway review this back before when it was just the green part or is it never been reviewed by me? I'm not sure if they this particular commission that's in here because it was years ago. this particular whether whether that rag was in place then the 4,000 foot rag when this house was built

um so I think this was built in 1990 um the last time it was touched I I don't know I could compare those years my sense is that it was before but the current commission did look at this preliminarily and um the executive director of Susie emailed me and she said at this time they haven't And you we do architecturals on this. They literally have photos from 5,000 feet away, 3,000 feet away, 1,000 feet away. So you can see what it looks like over those distances. Okay. You will be getting those.

Yeah. Some of that was submitted with the application as well. In this particular case, you know, there's the mass of the existing house that's there and then there's other mass of other buildings beyond. So, it's kind of blocked and it's just so far from the water on such a large property that just doesn't really make a large percentage. Anything that shows us where the vegetation is too that might make the view not a direct view. So, there's there are no trees or well very limited trees. There are some trees along the property line. This is basically an open meadow here. tall grasses and maybe some sparse trees

because because our review is supposed to be about um softening the view of of large bulk houses from the Connecticut River and the Back River. Right. Correct. So, it's not like whether we care about the architecture or anything like that. It's what is it what is it going to look like? So, if there isn't an empty field, of course, it's going to look what it there is nothing to buffer it, right? And so previous applications that's a sort of important point even if it's pre-existing on the neck road on Smith Neck Road. Yeah. Particularly on Smith's neck.

These additions in here again these are currently roofed porches so you're really not going to notice much difference there. This is kind of off on on the angle and there's current presently house there as well. Um, this is the largest piece, but it's a relatively narrow dimension in this direction. And then, like I said, it's 300 feet to the marsh, and then they probably have another 300 feet of marsh before they get to their property. You still understand. Yeah. It just looks very small. It maybe looks small, but this hasn't been buffered. Yeah. And sometimes people don't want to buffer it because that's the whole point. They want to be able to look out and see everything. And they also want people to be able to look back and see everything.

Yeah. With g So, there are some trees back here. with Gateway uh in several discussions with them and looking from the river if there's anything like if there are other houses, other buildings, anything else already behind it with with similar mass that Yeah, you're not going to unless that one's sticking way up on the higher point. It it's really the the new addition and yeah, these we can compare these roof lines, but these roof lines are probably fairly close. It's fairly flat from here to there building as much as it is the one in front, right? So, it's it's kind of a different thing that people are used to that we're we're reviewing, right?

Yeah. We're reviewing what does it look like and is it buffered and set into the property and does it really not call anything to itself if you're on the river? Okay. Yeah. So, that's what So, next month uh when you set the herring date next month, whatever date that is, May 11th, I think is the May 11th. Y um the architect will be here with those renderings that were submitted with some of the information to you and we'll explain all of that. Maybe a little landscape discussion, right? Somebody who Yeah, I didn't see much in the way of landscaping shown on the materials that we received, but I will get them out to you and then something that has to kind of be explained to the person who's building it and how proud they are of what they're building. But that's what we're reviewing actually.

Yeah, there's a septic system right in front of all of this. This is what these these four pieces are. Okay. So I think you know there's limited opportunity and I'm sure that they would plant a wall of tree to the river or the going up. No, it grad it gradually slopes down to the river. The point is it this is uh elevation 22. So it's 22 feet higher, right? Well, you get to figure it out a tree is and what it can cover. Okay. Well, thank you for that feedback because that's why we're reviewing it. It might not have been reviewed when it was first built, but that's our job now is to review it. What does it look like and is it buffered?

Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, we'll have probably more formal comments from Gateway B because they'll meet this month before your next meeting. Um, and then we'll bring those to you as well. Thanks. Thank you. Motion. So there is a motion to set this for maid and if we don't get to it it'll slide but yeah I make that motion to set it for motion to set the public hearing for made by Jane Marsh. A second second second by Mary Joe. All in favor? I I I

I opposed abstain. Motion uh passes 500 is approved. 500. Okay. To the next part of the agenda, section four, item A, discussion and planning of schedule phase two of the zoning regulations rewrite project. Do we want to do that now or do we want to address B and C first? Um B should be fairly quick if you want to take care of that. C I don't know how long it's going to be. Um but I think um 26 Griswell point shouldn't be a very long application.

Okay. Up to how you want to hand analyze. Um what are your thoughts? We want to spend on that. Um there's more to quite a few. There's quite a few informal discussions. Um some of those informal discussions are probably likely to be lengthy as well. So when you you know up to you when you want to move your um planning discussion well I make a motion that we move 268 C up before 6A. Okay. Is there a second to that motion?

I'll second it. In favor? I I Okay, I'm assuming this. Let's work on the assumption that that's a yes and we'll Yes. Okay. Second. All right. So, the motion uh abstain. I just get a mental picture of what's going on there. Um, that's furniture now. I haven't heard that in a while. How about that? Huh? All right.

Somebody would somebody like to text Michael and ask him to mute his microphone. I just He's muted now because you're muting him. Yeah. All right. Okay. I'll text him though. All right. So then that'll be uh we will then address now case 26-8C coastal slight plan 26 Griswald Road. Madam Secretary 8C's not a public hearing. We have a file. Hey Mike, you should have a file on it. Mr. Polo, can you hear me? Mr. Poliano.

Yeah, your microphone's doing all kinds of funky stuff. M mute your microphone. Thank you. Do we have anything or we do? We have a fairly thick folder on it. And again, it's just a CAN application, so you don't need to read public hearing notice. Okay. Good evening, Eric, Black Design Build. Hi, Eron. How's that? Good. How are you? Do we need to address anything in here or not yet? No, not at all. Again, this is a coastal sip application. You don't have publicity notice or anything like that. There was no public notice for this mod. Okay. Carry on.

We are renovating the main existing structure and it's to remove the existing L on the house and replace it with something that's actually smaller than the existing within 90% of the existing footprint. We're also looking to remove the existing garage. So, we've got a net loss on the site of 1,60 square ft uh compared to the current. Um this roof line on the new addition that's proposed is lower than the existing addition. And um the idea is to keep the house in keeping of the original architecture as closely as possible.

Do you want to open up and just show us? I'm sorry about that. Where is it? At 26. I know, but that we need to know. So where is that? Um is all the way down all the way down on the very end of the last house.

It is the last house. There's it in its current iteration. Right. So we are taking this L off completely. And the garage we are keeping the main footprint of the house. This section right here in its original form, we are replacing it with this L which is one single roof pitch and um this is the waterfacing elevation and this is the inland facing elevation. This is the current front of the house. This is an example of the finishes that we proposed to use.

But it's not going to have this bigger part here. It is. This is just This is the old sing house in me. Okay. That's an inspiration. Weathered sighting. It's kind of like what's already there a bit. Right now it's mostly paint and uh holes in the roof currently with missing windows. So yeah, so but as far as what anybody would see that they go inside, correct? As far as walking on the beach and looking back, it's going to look a little bit smaller than currently.

Um we're keeping all vegetation that's existing at the moment on the site. And yeah, just it currently has an ingground pool inside the structure. It's not tenable and not usable anymore. That's going to go away. and replacing it with kitchen, dining, living in that Lum and uh renovating the interior of the main house. Could you talk to us about the um the uh flood elevation and what you're doing there? The current elevation is 13 foot7

and this L matches the current house for that same 137. Okay. And that's above the If you look on the flood map, Denise, you'll see it sort of curves around this house there and this house is is not in the 100year flood. Okay,

we have not received a formal review from Deep on this. Um, again, their advisory. I know that Deep gave you guys separately some comments on on this earlier that did they okay I did not see those yet

and uh Deep does not seem to have a problem with this but that would again that was they submitted to Deep before they even came with the CA application and Deep seems to think it was okay. So um again it's a single family house in a single family zone and Deep doesn't seem to have any problems with it. So again it has to come in for a CAM given its location. Um this is a substantial change with the demolition and uh rebuilding. So um under the new October 1st rules, it has to come in front of you for a cam review. And part of a CAM review requires us to do erosion sediment controls and also the storm water management permit. Yes.

If it's under five acres doesn't go to the state, it comes to us. So do we have a storm water management plan and an erosion sediment control plan? I haven't seen those. But do you want to speak to that at all? Do you Uh I know in here we do have notes on uh silk fencing the site but we do not have a formal um proposed plan to you that has been submitted yet. Yeah because we have to approve that as part of the plan. If we don't approve it then it goes to DA like and you don't want to go to D first just to tell you we don't want to go there.

You really want to get it from us. So we need to make sure that we have that on file. Um, in terms of that, it should be fairly easy to do. Um, in terms of because you're, you know, you're not really expanding the, you know, impervious cover. So, that should be, you know, pretty easy with the storm water permit. So, I would basically say the storm water permit, the big issue with that is making sure you have, you know, post during construction erosion, sediment control. So, okay. So making sure will that require any secondary visit to your committee or is that just a We could require it and have Eric look at it deputized. Yeah. Okay. As a condition, right? As a condition.

What I will do is I'd probably just forward it over to Jacobson's office and have them give me quick review of it because again I don't expect this to be a very detailed very elaborate plan. I mean if there was something I saw that needed more details I would say it would come back to the commission but this looks like it should be pretty straightforward. So, but I just want to make sure that it's required and that we have it on file. Okay. Because it's assumed that when we approve something that it has an erosion sediment control plan. I will make sure that's conditional approval. Okay. Okay. Other questions for the opposition.

No. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. So we can we can take a motion with condition to to approve with to approve with conditions. We have two conditions correct or one I think the one with two but it says looks like it's one. Well I mean essentially we're separate deep right. Yeah deep's not going to be able to is not going to comment further at this point. So at this point you're going to approve it with again storm water and flood control plans to be reviewed and approved by a county engineer or consulting engineer. Okay. Okay. Is there a motion for that?

So moved by Jane Marsh. Second by Denise Denise Savageo. All in favor? I I I I Okay. Opposedain. All right. So the application with the condition um is approved 500. Okay. Again, up to you if you want to go back and take the um the planning update or if you want to move on to the question the uh site plan. So we probably should. Yes. There's a lot of stuff.

I think we should go through that and then go back and finish up with ours. Okay. So, is there a motion then that we move section 4A to the end of section? Wait a minute. We should do We need to You want to do a first? Yeah. Oh, okay. We have staff. Right. That's right. That's okay.

Okay. All right. So, then our next item will be discussion and planning of schedule phase two of the zoning regulation rewrite project. the outreach group that got together. I guess we will turn it over which was by the way that was Michael Fiano Denise Savage Joe and Mary Gardner Copelan.

Okay. And um with us again is our um head consultant for the project, Francisco Gomes. Welcome, sir. Hello. Can you hear me? Okay, we can hear you fine. Very good. So Denise or Michael, do you want to Yeah. Well, I think Francisco, you're going to go over what you submitted to us. Why don't you do that and then we'll talk about some of the proposed changes we have for that. Okay. Uh should I see my screen and if I do would would you be able to see it in the room? Yes. Yes.

Okay. I I will do that now. All right. So I provided two documents which should be online shortly here. um one is regarding the phase 2 process uh as a whole and the other document is focused on the community engagement aspects of phase two. So can you can you enhance that a little bit more one more? Sure. Sure. That's great. Okay. Very good. There you go. Perfect.

Okay. Um, so I'll I'll just give a pre brief introduction as to, you know, what what this phase entails and the reason why we have it structured as we do and and the type work that this phase is designed to address and and then uh we can go through in more detail. And if you have questions uh or comments along the way, feel free to interject. I'm happy to receive any questions you might have. So the phase 2 schedule and first of all phase two as it is um is intended to allow for us to explore very intentionally changing the zoning to respond uh to needs that we've identified through the course of this work or through the course of um um other work that's been done in town or or from your experience uh in reviewing applications. and regulating land use for the past several years. Uh the phase one of our work was um focused on restructuring the document to make it more usable and to correct errors and issues and to ensure that statutory compliant as best we could during that phase. and and with the focus of minimizing the amount of change that we actually did to the regulations in terms of what's allowed and uh the processes that things are permitted by etc. We were very intentional actually not to change things except where things had to be changed for statutory compliance. Uh phase two is very different in its approach. We are going to have discussions about and consider uh intentionally changing the regulations to uh either restrict things you currently allow or allow things you

currently don't allow or um perhaps strengthen requirements, add flexibility to the regulations and so forth. And uh we we've scheduled this out for roughly a year um with our work concluding as early as March of next year of 2027 and and that involves us going through major topic areas of the regulations. So the entire document, the entire set of regulations will be reviewed and put on the table for discussion and considered for amendment, which which isn't to say that everything needs to be amended or will be amended, but everything will be on the table for consideration. And that begins with any regulation that we have that is relevant uh towards environmental protection or or environmental issues whether it be uh your soil and erosion control regulations, anything surrounding storm water, uh preservation, protection of trees, landscaping requirements, and u so forth. anything related to the the gateway district and and um and really anything that that its primary purpose is environmental protection. Um so that is is actually fairly comprehensive in its scope because it it addresses um or is related to many sections of your regulations. uh whereas the the the the items that follow from there are a little more directly associated with particular sections of your regulations such as your residential zones, right? And and and housing because um you know the issue of housing does it can be somewhat independent of your residential zones. Um but we we're going to address that work all all at the same time. And

then what follows from there is your commercial industrial zones. And then your site design, landscaping, parking, and signage standards. So these are everything on a site that's outside and that is separate from a building. um followed by your uh administrative content and uh you know permit requirements, site plan requirements, procedural requirements and that that's the back end of of your document your regulations as it is. And of course we have an adoption process to go through and and you're now you know very familiar with what that looks like having very recently adopted phase one uh of the amendments and it's a very similar process that would follow. Now unlike phase one uh community engagement is going to be very central to this work because we we really need to involve the community in some decision making and better understand the issues that they perceive are uh should be the focus of our work. And so I I have a separate docu uh document I I'll switch to in just a moment. We can discuss what that community engagement looks like. But I do want to provide a little more detail on on these tasks. Um, so before I do that, does does anyone have any questions or comments at at this point before I continue?

Um, Francisco, these Yes. Um, everybody gets three boxes, meaning that um all these tests are assigned the three months uh discussion window. What if we think that certain ones are going to take less and others will take a lot longer? Should we do an adjustment now or later?

I I think we could do it later. Uh you I'm typically not rigid in my approach because for what you're suggesting, we might find some items there's not a lot of work to be done and we can get through it quicker. And then others might be far more involved and they they need four months or whatever it may be. Um but you bring up a very important uh point and that is what is that what does that work cycle look like. Uh so I I just want to go down in the document. So here is if you can imagine zooming in on one of those threemonth um work items or work phases that begins with a process of discovery and essentially we go through your zoning regulations. U take a look at what other communities are doing, best practices that are out there, you know, um any contextual information that's relevant to that particular topic or section of your regulations. And we assemble all those findings into a presentation to share with you so that we've got a a starting point for that discussion. Um we'll we'll then first review those findings with our project management team which been working with both Paul and Eric uh on that and then uh you know based upon the outcome of that discussion uh once we decide that it's it really addresses many of the issues that we need to address we'll bring it to you to the full commission for discussion and at at that point uh we need to Those need to be very productive working meetings. And and if I were to go back to the schedule I just showed, you'll see they're laid out uh roughly every other month. Uh and those are really intended to be working meetings. Uh we would recommend that they be conducted either on an evening per your regular schedule that you have a light agenda. If not, uh schedule a special meeting so

that we can afford to take two hours or whatever time we need as necessary. um coming out of those meetings with presumably with some direction from those we would then draft uh the recommended amendments. So we would prepare uh all those changes uh based upon the guidance that you provide us. And what that looks like is is different than what you've seen in phase one because what you saw in phase one essentially was the entire set of regulations prepared into a new format and packaged as one uh entire piece of work. Uh here we are going to be moving through the regulations topic by topic, issue by issue, you know, article or section by section. And um a lot of this work can uh exist independently. And what I mean by that is you don't necessarily need to adopt everything it is that we might prepare as a recommended amendment um in order for this process to be successful. And and and what I mean by that is we might discuss an idea or something that needs to be addressed and in order for you to fully understand that we really my team really needs to draft that draft all the language for it. provide description of how it would work, uh the potential impacts it has, um how it relates to your plan of conservation and development. We really need to give it enough shape so you fully understand it. Um and and and then uh you're in the position to make a decision about what to do with that recommended amendment. That's why we call it that. It's a recommended amendment. we recommend that you consider amending your regulations as recommended. Um, and you've got

options at that point. And in the communities I've worked in the past, we've taken the same approach. It's been successful and we've left some amendments on the behind. We left them on the table either because um we we already had a full slate of items that the commission felt was as much as they wanted to move forward with at one time and they wanted to take a wait andsee approach on it. Um or they had just decided that at that time it it was just an issue that they weren't interested in pursuing and they maybe wanted to revisit it a couple years down the road. So, I anticipate that we're going to we could have as many as 20 separate recommended amendments come out of this process. In our work in Stonington, we we developed about over 50 and we brought um about 35 of them forward to adoption uh which were adopted a few months ago and and are now effective. Um, and we're we're very careful in that work that as we're drafting these recommended amendments, we're cognizant of any potential effects that might have on other amendments that are re recommended. Um, but we found it effective to really break the work up into these individual pieces. That way, it's not a a take it or leave it proposition. Either you make all the changes or you don't make any changes at all. So going going back to our schedule coming out of this third month, coming out of that meeting, we would draft um we would draft these amendments in this memorandum form. And it could be that uh that three-month period of time results in one recommended amendment. Everything is captured in one recommended amendment. or it could be that there are five individual recommended amendments

that address different issues related to that larger topic. Each one of these documents is intended to be uh an individual uh application if it were that you would bring uh to your meeting to a public hearing for adoption. And it could it could be packaged into a larger application, but each one would be an individual item that you could vote up or down on. Uh each one I I describe it as a memorandum. Um and and you may be able to see here. I'll enlarge it so you can see a little better. We've got the purpose. So the the purpose of the recommended amendments, what are we trying to address? Why are we recommending that amendment? A description of it in in layman's terms. What does this do? How does it change things? The geographic extents. Is this unique to a particular zone, a particular area, or is it townwide? Is it consistent with your POCD? Does your POCD recommend this? Does it say anything about this general topic? Is it silent on the issue? Is there anything in your POC that is potentially it conflicts with? And of course, we don't want that to happen. And then contextual information that that's usually that can be related to changes in statute to trends to best practices to the bigger picture. It's really the bigger picture help us understand how this fits in with how land use regulation is evolving. And then finally we provide the exact text. What sections need to be amended? Uh the section number. What text needs to be uh reddrafted? Uh what text needs to be added? what text needs to be removed. So that would contain all of the information you would need to then if adopted to amend your regulations and we'd know exactly how to do that, what sections need to be amended. Um in that

this would comprise everything you would need to uh adopt an amendment. Uh now when we think about the overall process and I'll zoom out a little bit here and go back to our schedule. Francisco, before you go on from that, quick question. Um, in our in our subcommittee meeting, we had identified another potential topic for that list of items you had on the memorandum that being interdependencies. So, does would this change trigger any required changes elsewhere in the regulations or or uh would they uh be dependent on changes in others? Yes, we typically we will note that and and I could certainly provide a line item specific to that, but we will note if there's an interdependency between this recommended amendment and another one. Uh so that we know that um if they don't both move forward, then a certain type of adjustment needs to be made. or if there are two amendments, usually if there are two amendments that are inextricably linked, they they really need to both move forward for them to be effective, then we'll typically package them up into one recommended amendment. But sometimes there are there are impacts and sometimes they're very minor. It's like a section needs to be renumbered or moved to make way or or um some wording needs changed somewhere else in order for something to work. and and we typically do identify that uh within within these documents and and it'll typically be one of these numbered items that follow.

Thank you. I have a Sure. Sorry. Great question. Yeah. Um Francisco Michael Barnes here. I have a quick question. How do you I guess what's the basis of the recommendations of the amendments? Like you said in in Stonington you had 50. How did you is that like I guess how what's the basis for how you decide where those 50 or what those 50 are?

Sure. Well, that that represented uh about two years worth of work there. Um and we had a you know commission that was interested in making extensive changes to the way they regulated land and our our schedule and and budget reflected that as well. Um but that direction came primarily from the commission. Uh and we did we did uh as we've recommended here, we did we did community engagement as part of that and it was informed by the community engagement work that we did as well and that community engagement looked very similar to what we proposed for you including online survey and workshops and some presentations etc. Uh but the commission took a strong leadership position on it and they provided us direction and and we followed their lead. Francisco, I just have a quick question. You've given us a

you've given us a detailed, you know, engagement plan for the community or stakeholders. Um, but I don't see that in this document, the recommended phase two. Um, so I was just wondering, do you incorporate that? And and the reason I'm bringing this up is, you know, this is pretty straightforward, but but if a community member, you know, the general public looked at this, they'd say, well, where does it say anything about stakeholder engagement? So, I'm just looking at the discovery phase and if there's just something you should say during discovery that this is during the discovery phase, that's where the stakeholder engagement would be.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a great point and I I would recommend Yeah, I provided them as separate files just for the ease of comparison and ease of use for all of you. Yeah, I'd recommend if we make this available on the town's website, we just combine these files and so that's more comprehensive. I could even provide a a paragraph and we could think of these more as sections of the phase 2 process rather than separate or independent processes. Yeah, I just didn't want to have that where you have it, you have like the task,

you know, in place. So, it says task phase discovery project. I just didn't want to lose the stakeholder engagement piece. And not to get into the details of it here because we have a whole, you know, another page, you know, four or five pages on stakeholder engagement, but I didn't want to lose it here just if people are looking at like, oh, what are we doing now? We're doing discovery. Oh, what are we doing now? were doing project management. But I wanted to make sure that people understood that during that process, before you came to the commission and before we prepared amendments, that the stakeholder engagement process was was going to be here. Yeah. So, I just wanted to make sure. Yep. So, Francisco, who Yes.

Who's doing the discovery? Is it you and your company doing the discovery? That's correct. It's our team. Yeah. Okay. So, it's not us. No, no. We bring those findings back to you for discussion with you and we we're going to look for you to to act as a sounding board, you know, based upon, you know, your your knowledge of the community, your knowledge of the issues. Um, you know, your position as a representative of the community and um we're so we're doing all the leg work, but we're really looking to you to provide that direction to us. you know, these these are our findings, right? Where do you want to go with this?

Do do you do you record that stuff so that if we wanted to listen to it and hear what you heard that we could hear it, too?

Yeah, we we we typically do when when the meetings are held virtually, we always record them and we make those recordings available. Um, and typically they're, you know, we'll have the if the town, you know, can can post them online, we make them available to the general public and and our commission has found it helpful uh to be able to go back and review discussions and for commissioners that may have missed a meeting to be able to go back and review and get caught up. So, that's been very effective. um when we conduct them in person, we we uh well, of course, if you're having a meeting, you're you're recording and whatever as you're required to court uh for your meetings, but we we typically also provide a summary of decisions made and of actionable items from each of those meetings.

I I meant when you were doing your discovery, those are all going to be recorded, too, so we could listen to your discovery. Well, so our discovery is is just us uh you know, at desktop. Oh, I see. Not I don't mean that. I mean when you're out there talking to the people, you know, if you were having a

uh Yeah, I see. I see. So, you're talking about the community engagement process. So, our discovery is is a little more technical in nature. It it does, you know, the community engagement process is part of that. Uh but much of our work involves uh reading through your regulations uh doing research on best practices specific to that topic issue. Uh reviewing zoning regulations from other communities that are addressing a similar issue and an innovative way. Uh and so it's it's a lot of research, data, information, and synthesizing and then really packaging that into a format that you can quickly get up to speed and comprehend it and which why we use PowerPoint for that. Uh discover community engagement certainly is part of the discovery process. Um it it doesn't it's not necessarily going to follow this exact schedule for these technical topics which is one reason why the we've got a separate schedule but it does precede much of this work like you know that we we really need to have those before we make decisions on how to move forward uh on these various issues. We really need to consult with the community. Um, so the the schedule is is parallel and it's really if I quick just switch quickly to the community engagement schedule and and we can we can start this from the beginning um but very quickly for your benefit uh we we want to we really want to get out in front of the community right away with uh with a survey because those are great at promoting awareness, great at inviting people into the process. It's not a big commitment on their behalf. Getting people to think about the issues and it's a great way for us to collect some baseline information and they have an understanding as to what uh the most important issues are to people and and

what their perspective is on those. And a survey is a great way, as I said, to generate interest and help promote workshops. So, we want to do that those workshops in the first half of this year-long process so that it can inform the rest of the process and as we get started with a workshop and and what we've recommended is that first workshop be focused on uh environmental issues then we could proceed with that environmental work which is why they're scheduled in that in that sequence so that we could follow that uh that work with you and a discovery process is aligned with when we're doing these workshops with the community and and I hope that hope that answered your question.

So, so if we're going to recommend to you areas that we're interested in, we better hurry up and do so. Am I getting I hesitate to say hurry because we do have close to a year at our disposal. Yeah. Um and we're going to take it piece by piece. Um so I you know I I hesitate to say hurry but it is incredibly poor important that throughout this process that we get that guidance from you. Yeah. Okay. Well to a certain extent some of those were surfaced during the last year of the technical where we were p pulling issues aside and saying okay this needs to move to phase two.

There's actually a folder in the basket over there that has all the materials that we received so far we didn't know what to do with. Yeah. that we just put in that folder and now we're going to sort of dig out of the folder and make use of and we we told people at the time, okay, a little premature, but we'll hang on to it and use it later. And now is beginning of later. So, Francisco, um, just so I'm clear. So, as part of the process, you're going to be reviewing viewing our plan of conservation and development.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. That that'll be one of the first things that we do and your um Yeah. and and and other relevant planning documents like your storm water management plan and and we we did take a cursory review at that as part of our phase one work, but we'll dive much deeper into that and that that's very important to our work. Your POCCD is intended to be foundational to your zoning. Uh it's intended to guide your your land development policy and your zoning regulations. So it it's really important that we're familiar with that and we revisit that in in decisionm as well which isn't to say that it it necessarily is going to it even though it's a comprehensive plan that it addresses all of the issues but um to the extent that there's work that the community did this this commission did and and others across the town uh did and and invested in that and to provide direction to the community and to the town. We we certainly want to we want to move that work forward and and build upon that.

Oh, I I really thank you for that be and I really have not seen this format before. So, it really helps clarify that in my mind. Yeah. So, in in your work in other towns, is it is it have you seen where particularly in towns that have uh separate planning and zoning commissions where the POCD is has to be revised based on zoning rewrites?

That's a fantastic question and that issue has come in come up not extensively but on uh very specific issues. I I would we had done some work in Woodbury where we actually did their PC first and then moved on to their zoning update and um which is really the the ideal sequence to do this work. And the truth of the matter is there was an issue that simply had not surfaced during the update of the PCD. We hadn't anticipated it. And then when we got to the zoning work, well into the zoning work we understood that wow the PCD really should provide support for this and there they had uh a separate planning and zoning commission. So we went back to the planning commission and said hey through our work with the zoning commission we found this issue and um you know it surrounded housing you know multifamily housing and uh we we we advise that you we amend the recently adopted POCD uh and its future land use plan to support this particular change in the zoning rags and and so that's the process we went through um And I I would expect we we we may we may you know there's a chance that we may come across a similar issue in the course of our work uh here. And of course it you don't have to wait uh every 10 years to amend or update your POCD. You can do that on an ongoing basis. But it but it is good and and this isn't necessarily an issue for content that is absent in in your PCD where your PCD is just silent on the issue. It it's where it's more where the your PCD is very clear and specific in in its direction and you're trying to do something a little different. You're

tracking in another direction with what you want to do with the zoning where I I feel it's important to reconcile that.

Thank you. And just by cl way of clarification um as staff of the planning commission that there was discussion over the last several months uh Howard Margulus wanted to propose that this commission wait while the planning commission overhaul entirely the PC. So similar to what Francisco was talking about in the other town the commission as a whole decided that was not the path they wanted to take. They did suggest that if there were specific items in the POCCD that needed to be amended that they would take those items up based on whatever was coming out of what the zoning commission was doing. Um but they didn't want to delay the process by starting from scratch with the PS. Okay. Franc sorry. Go ahead.

Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. Um, just on the outreach, how does it work for I see you said the surveys like specifically are the survey sent to every property owner in town? Is it as a note card? Is it an email? What? Like

Yeah. So, first, these are not statistically valid surveys and and we don't we don't need them to be for our purposes because we're not setting policy based on the survey results. it's, you know, it's not like a referendum or anything to that effect. Uh, the most effective way, uh, is through a good promotional campaign. Um, mailings. If we had a project that had a a huge, uh, direct expense budget, you know, several thousand dollars, we could certainly conduct mailings or or a phone uh, survey, but that those that's very very costly and that would come at the expense of our workshops. Um so but we've gotten very good participation in online surveys. So typically it's hosted online. You I'm sure you've taken one before. It's like a survey monkey type uh format. And we've gotten very good participation through really strong social media promotion uh press releases although that continues to be diminishing returns on print media. Uh but social media continues to be extremely effective as well as email blast to any list serves that the town has or any other communities locally. Uh printed flyers, we get pretty pretty good bounce from when we put printed flyers out uh at libraries, um you know, town hall, whatever it may be, community centers, senior centers.

Um so we've Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, we we've we've gotten good, you know, very good participation. several hundred people, thousand plus people in with in communities about your size. So I guess on the surveys like are some surveys I've taken you only have the option to answer the you know the selected boxes that are on the survey whereas if somebody wants to

so I guess who's determining what questions are going on that survey to determine that's my concern is that I I more so I'm thinking about commercial property owners I don't know where most changes come from in your zoning rewrites and other municipalities. Is it is it heavy on the commercial zoning that's getting rewritten? Is it has he heavy on the residential or is it a mixed bag? Um I just want to know if there's a way for us if we're going to be doing any major changes to the commercial industrial zones if there is a specific method that we can use to maybe I mean we don't have that many commercial properties and industrial properties in this town.

So I don't know if that's something that needs to be point specific like a certified mail saying hey we're going to change this zone your feedback would be appreciated. you know, all those all those things are certainly possible that there's a cost associated with all of them. You know, I have we have a budget that I'm working within. Um, but it is helpful that your your commercial zones are are relatively small and as you suggested, there's a fixed number of properties so that it makes it more viable to do mailings or something to that effect. uh you know it it may be that you I I don't I'm not familiar with any active business associations or groups in town but that if there is anything to that effect um then working through those groups or associations can be very effective as well. I know sometimes we'll work with the chamber of commerce to to promote uh awareness of any surveys. With respect to the survey questions, how we arrive at those uh we we do a lot of surveys for all types of projects including uh plans of conservation, development and zoning work of course. So we we have a certain baseline types of questions that we would typically ask of any community and that's a starting point. Um but we're also again we want to look to you to the commission to understand some of the questions that you might want answered. Um and so we would welcome uh you know questions that you might want to ask and you don't necessarily need to have them formulated completely but just give us a sense as to what issues you would love to get some community response on. With respect to the questions themselves, we're we we're pretty good designing these surveys so as not to um uh you know kind of lead the witness, if you will, uh so that people have an

opportunity to to respond um with a variety of response options, including open-ended responses. And we usually learn our most from those open-ended responses where it may be a yes or no question or an other or we ask we provide someone an opportunity. If yes, you know, tell us why or if no, tell us why. And those can be that information can be incredibly informative and and typically more than just a simple yes or no in terms of understanding the issues. Uh so we typically provide a range of questions some multiple choice some yes no some open-ended some ranking your variety is really important if it's the same thing over and over again people lose interest they don't finish the survey and to that effect survey can't be take can't be too long we we need to be strategic if it takes more than 10 minutes people won't finish it. Uh, so there's definitely um an ideal length and we we've done this lots of times so we're we're pretty good at designing surveys so that they're effective. People finish them. They feel and they feel that it was productive and worthwhile and they weren't they weren't forced into answering questions that they felt were were framed uh in in any way or loaded questions. Uh so we're we're very sensitive to that.

Thank you. You just Is that Yeah. Turn the waterfall off. Yes. Thank you. Am I making noise again? Yeah. You know, it was good. You you muted your mic, so we're we're fine. Thank Thanks. Enjoy enjoy your visit to Niagara Falls, by the way. Can you hear me? Okay. We're not getting a clear answer from you. You're you're garbled. I'm going to try again. Yeah, you're you're fine. You're we can hear you fine. It's just in between when you're not speaking. If you could mute it, it'd be helpful.

Seriously, I wanted to make you aware that our Shoreline Gateway Committee a couple of years ago had done a survey that got an amazing response actually over 1900 respondents. Oh, great. Good. Targeted the uh business community along the shoreline. So, uh, two things I think it would be important to incorporate the results of that into your discovery and the other would be that they might have some, um, practices they developed to target the business community and and generate that kind of that kind of response rate. I'll stop now.

Okay. Thank you for offering that information. It's very helpful to know. So, Francisco, let me just summarize a couple of things on the community engagement plan that we talked about. As Eric let you know, there was a,

you know, three of us met, Mary, myself, and Mike with Eric to go over what you put out and I think and we thought it was it was great. Um, just wanted to let you to go over a couple of things. Um, I think overall it would be great to call it a stakeholder engagement plan rather than just a community because we also want to make sure that we're bringing in community kind of talks about the general public and we want that but there's also other stakeholders like for example a public works department which may not be cons. So we just want to make sure it's it's stakeholder. Um, so we love the I

Yep. So the community workshops um we were really looking at those three sessions being the the community the public you know general public coming in. So we appreciate that. Um you had optional things. One was the survey and one was the focus groups. We don't want that optional. We want to do the survey and we want to do the focus work groups. And we were looking at the focus groups as being those other stakeholders like commissions, boards, staff, um the regional, you know, like the gateway commission, the COG. Sure. Um any, you know, any state agency we may may need to bring in if there's any

non-government agency we needed to bring in and and and talk to. So, we were looking at those focus groups and using that them that way. and it may be good

that it's not, you know, that we may need, you know, depending on what it is, we may need to do more than one. But that's those are kind of where we went. So, I wanted to make sure that we we captured those. And then I think one of the important points we want to just make sure people have is people want to make sure that if they're submitting information whether it be to you know town hall to Eric's department or to you that how do we get it? So we want to make sure that on the website um that we have someplace where people can if they provide us written comments. Yeah,

it's it's on the website so that we just have these are all the comments we've received to date and people can so that everybody can get them. So if if I have you know the planning commission sent something in and they want to make sure that every commission member has it every member every commission member plus every member of the public will be able to see what comments we have received um as we're going through this discovery process this community engagement stakeholder process. So, we want to make sure every so and outside of the public uh he you know the public hearing and then um the last I think major point because other otherwise it's like everything's really here um is the uh public hearing you kind of had that you know an information session originally before that and I think now you're saying an update summary

we want to clearly have here's all the amendments that we're going to, you know, move forward that we know that as a commission we're going to,

you know, kind of end, if you will, end the discovery collection period and move these to public hearing and that the public hearing will get kicked off by a presentation on what all of those changes are. So that it's very very clear that you know people have that because we don't want to be getting now comments kind of that in the discovery period you know if you just put something up information they start commenting on it but it's not during during the during the public hearing. So we want to make sure we have a really clear clear demarcation and again kind of like D kicks things off like the public hearing that we kind of said you know do a thing that says here's the public hearing and this is what this is what the changes to the rags are so that we kind of do that upfront

during that public hearing process. Okay. Yeah. that that was our understanding which which why we amended this as we did with respect to the option just want to make it clear and I also want to make sure that the commission member all heard that because not everybody was at that meeting. So yeah with with respect to the optional items uh you know they're optional because they're not currently included within our scope of services. Uh, so

the the survey, as I described already, like we're we're very adept at doing these that that's not a huge lift for us to to get that up online, but we would we really look to your input as to the questions. Are we asking the right questions? Are there other questions you would like to ask? Are the, you know, the response options appropriate? We we would really need your involvement on that. And I would say we're happy to include that in our scope of services, right? because we can do that fairly cost-effectively. The optional focus groups uh we're we're looking to you to host those to conduct those and host those

because we don't have them within our scope and then to provide us uh your summary of those meetings and of the findings so that it can inform our work. Yeah. I think I think that's understood and thank you for the online survey helping and you know we have a a subcommittee established with I said Mary and Mike and myself with Eric

um and so we can definitely run that by and then make sure we get feedback from the commission as well on the survey and then the focus groups we understood that was something that we would need to take on. What we do need to have though is in the communication piece and the um so that we're letting people know what the focus groups are as we've kind of described them and um I'm happy to help provide and I know I was talking with Mike earlier um you know language that um you know to to amend this just a little bit because even though we understand you might be doing it, we want to make sure everybody understands that we are doing this.

So we want you know anything that's going out to the public. So that's where okay internally we may need to know what you're doing what we're doing but externally we need everybody to just know we're doing all these being done. Understood. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And to Mary and Mike if I missed anything but that was kind of the summary of stuff. And just to sort of follow up on that, um I have reached out to Rivercog and they have indicated they have money in their budget to assist us with the workshop process. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. Just just quickly in terms of what Eric was talking about, we were talking about the workshops and some of the focus groups and whatever and you know having a facilitator so and the cogs that they thought would be able to help us. Good. Good. Yeah, I'm sorry. I meant focus groups, not the Yeah, the focus groups. Focus groups. Correct. Right. Right. Okay.

Can I go just back to the the three boxes where we're actually um in our schedule? Is it possible at the end of box number one where you guys have done your your labors and arrived at what you're going to suggest because I heard you say that box two would be you would be discussing it with Eric and um Paul. Can I add that uh the rest of the commission would also get an email or something of whatever it was that was going to be discussed because there's a few curious minds on this commission that would like to start seeing it then.

Yeah, I mean certainly at at the end of these meetings, Francisco always transmits to us a memo of what occurred at the meeting. We can then turn that around and get it out to everybody just so they can see that. Is there recordings of the meeting? So that way that'd be a better way for us to instead of um it is on teams. I don't I have not up until now been recording those teams calls because I I got honestly foyer concerns, but if you want I can record those teams calls and make them available, but that at that point it probably would be something I would need to put on this the town's website for everyone to to be aware of. I don't know if you guys are opposed to that, but I don't see the He said that he'd be making some kind of a summary that he was giving to I think a summary is

at the end of his process if he can give you point discussing the view if you just give it. Yeah, he does produce and again you can sort of if you want to fill in additional information Francisco up until now following our meetings all I Francisco he does put out a memo of this is what we discussed here are my points going forward these are my actionable items. So again, that happens within a day or so of these meetings. And again, I will be happy to get those out when we have them. Okay. But I meant at the time before he's going to discuss it with you and you that that he's going to give you two something at the end of his first month. That's what I'm looking to get.

It's it's our our summary of findings, right? That PowerPoint. No, she she's saying that if there's an agenda for these meetings that we're having, she wants to see the agenda for the meetings. We haven't really been putting together agendas. James, you need to give me an agenda. I need to see what he's going to give to you guys back. Oh, okay. He's got has a work product of some kind. I just would like to start seeing it earlier so I have an extra month toate it. Okay. Okay. result a as we have work product from from IMEG I I will give it to all of you folks to to to have in hand. Okay. Great.

You Yes. And and a lot of our work product in this space we're we're placing that into a PowerPoint presentation. It it not that it's a formal final presentation for the public. It's just a medium that is convenient to work with. It is kind of our our canvas where we can place information. Uh whether it's visual information, screenshots of the zoning regs, uh tables, text. Uh it we're able to put everything in one place. It's easy to get through. Everyone's pretty familiar with PowerPoint and it's just a little more fluid than uh like a Microsoft Word document. And so that's kind of our our canvas for this work, so to speak. And we're

we're we're happy to and we do intend to provide you with with those discovery powerpoints in advance of our meetings with you so that you have an opportunity to review those, you know, come prepared to those meetings for the discussion. Uh, sometimes it can be beneficial that we don't send that out to you until I've had a chance to meet with Eric and Paul just to make sure um all the content is is, you know, appropriate or it's correct or whatever it may be. It just gives us an opportunity to vet it first and really tighten it up um for its presentation to you.

Okay, I think we could handle it, but that's over. Yeah. and and generally speaking through the we get it and take the feedback back to Francis

and generally speaking through the course of this process our project management meetings Eric and Paul have played an an advisory role they've guided us um but we've we've we've tried as best we can and this will be more so in the second phase um to reserve those big decisions uh for for you to make as as a commission. Um because we're we're all facilitating this process, but we're not the decision necessarily the decision makers. You are as a commission. Right. That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just I'm just looking for another month for me to do the considering. Yeah.

Because for me, a month isn't very much because I have do not spend every day in that month doing it. Yeah. Understood. Understood. kind of get sandwiched. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Other questions, comments, I guess. And this is what I'm conf concerned about with some of the housing information that's developing at the state level, maybe even the federal level. Yes. um how how are we planning to deal with that on the local level while that's still developing at a higher level? What are your thoughts on that?

No, that's that's a really a very uh important question. Uh and it's probably worthwhile for me to discuss the work that we're doing with Rivercog through Rivercog and that we will actually be also coordinating with you on shortly. Uh so okay

the the most pressing changes have been at the state level with the Connecticut legislature in the form of public act 251 that was signed by the governor uh the day before Thanksgiving late that Wednesday and it has two significant implications for your zoning regulations. It has implications for your commercial zones in that you now have to require uh some form of housing to be allowed in your commercial zones um by no more than what's being called summary review which is uh somewhere in between a permitted as of right use and a special permit use. you can't require a public hearing or special permit for it. Uh in that housing and that is up to nine units you have to allow. So that's that's very that impactful as I'm sure you all understand.

Is that per property? I'm sorry. Per property.

Per property. Yes. Per per each lot. Per each lot. And and it's up to one. You have to allow up to one building. So, we're not talking about multiple 9-unit buildings. You have to allow one building. It's effective July 1st. It doesn't mean that you have to have your zoning regulations amended by July 1st. However, if you don't have your regulations amended by then um for for this particular issue and you do have a developer come forward with an application, because you don't have regulations, they're really in the driver's seat on the process. Um so Rivercog we are we were hired by Rivercog to work with um we're working with 13 of the 17 communities in the region including Old Line. Um and we will be working with each community to update your zoning regulations uh to accommodate this and to uh do our best to regulate this type of growth um so that it's not adversely impactful to your commercial zones. the the other and I realize there's a lot right there and I'm happy to answer any questions about that. The other half of that is that uh the legislature also uh really hamstrung your ability ability to require off- streetet parking for residential development. It puts some very severe limitations on what how what and how much you can require per dwelling unit. And um we are also as part of our work with RiverCard, we're working with communities to update your parking requirements to be compliant with statute. Uh all of that work is being fast-tracked and um so within the next six weeks we will deliver recommended amendments in order to comply with statute um and make that our the

intention is to make it available to you as a commission to move forward with as soon as you deem fit. Um, and I realize this may or may not be the first time you're you're hearing about this, but um, there will be some engagement forthcoming to to that effect. And and I expect um, you know, you'll have you have work product and communications from Eric as to the status of that Rivercock work as well.

Yeah. Actually, Francisco Oh, go ahead, Mike. Did you want to say something? Yeah, I was just going to add quickly that that thanks Francisco for for pointing that out. When you when you look at PA251, the the first major milestone is is July 2026. We have ours we have our phase two nominally in first quarter to mid 2027. Yeah. And then there's another shoot to drop in 2028 when the regional housing plans are are published. Right.

And that's probably going to feed back again. So, I just wanted to tell you at a macro level, um, this is going to go on into 28, deep into 28, and then there'll be likely be another round of changes that are that are triggered by the regional housing plans, no matter what path we take to that regional housing plan, the the options being to throw in with with Rivercog or to to go it alone. And that decision is is going to be uh coming up in in mid 27 again. So, That's that's correct. Yeah.

So, the the public act 251, the middle housing and the parking piece that that's it's following a schedule that's independent from our work here. And it it's compulsory. You don't really have a choice in the matter. You have some choice in exactly how it's written and how it's expressed, but um there's uh you know, you don't have a choice. It's not an optin or opt out type thing. Uh so that that work as I mentioned it's going to be fasttracked and it's going to be while it's very much related to our work it's going to get out in front of it and it's going to be an independ of course it's work that we're doing through the cog so it's it's independent of this even though it's very much related to everything it is that we're we're trying to do here.

Thank you.

Yeah, one of the discussions we did have and I'm sorry I forgot to bring this up. It's like I didn't look at all of my notes. Was was this discussion on public that 25-1 and that um did we somewhere in our communications need to let folks understand that there's this we're rewriting our zoning rags but that this is going to happen right away but then also as Mike pointed out there's other deadlines when they come up with this housing plan in two years or whatever that we may need to change things again and So, we just wanted to So, if you can think about how we might communicate that um when we're letting people know about our zoning rewrite because the housing people are going to thinking about what to do about housing and meanwhile public act 25-1 is looming for multiple perspectives both both short-term and long-term and but we need to keep our process moving forward even with that in the background. And just quickly, um, our our board of selectmen appointed a subcommittee on public act 25-1. Um, that includes, you know, the zoning commission, the affordable housing commission, and the planning commission. So, members from each of those are and they appointed a special she they appointed a special committee that's looking at that.

Uh, that's good to know. I I was not aware of that. That's very helpful to know. Um, okay. Very good. Very good. Yes. I I incredibly important points that you make and and we'll be sure in our communications to make it clear because it's going to get confusing to people and confusion makes things alarming and we don't want people to be alarmed. Um, but there's a lot going on at the same time. And it's important that we we clarify that the purpose of this work as related to but separate from compliance with the public act and the work that's being done through Rivercog and then the work that's down the road that will result from the housing growth plans. Um, that we we need to explain that to people. Um, and so I think you know communi preparing communications is part of our scope. And if I if I go back to our community or stakeholder engagement document um we have uh we put it down here now community engagement materials. So we're we're going to provide content and narrative uh for your town website and we and we do you recommend a dedicated web page on the uh on on the town website dedicated to this. I know we have some content, some links up there now, but we really need a a you know a a paragraph or two that explains how this work is related to and yet separate from public act 251 work being done through Rivercog the and make people aware of the the future work that may need to be done with respect to housing growth plan. It could be a couple years it will be a couple years down the road. Uh so yeah the these are all really important issues to understand and and and we need to adequately communicate that as well.

Thank you. Sure. Sure. Okay. Now we all set as a commission with Francisco. Thank you. It was helpful. Thank you very much. That was great. Thank you very very much. Appreciate your time. Yeah. Happy do it. So, we'll update these documents as we discuss, get those back to you and and you know, we're going to we're going to get this thing started and I I look forward to working with you all on this phase of the work. Thanks. Appreciate it. Okay. Good night, everyone. Have a nice even looking at

Yes, they they were emailed to you. I didn't I'm not sure that you sent them out, Eric. Okay. Did you just send the Did we just send them to the subcommittee? Um No, but he gave updated ones, but when you sent it to me, I said, "Make sure you send it to the whole commission." And Craig should have done that this afternoon. If you didn't do that, I will I will make sure this all gets out. But I mean, okay. I've been trying to get Craig to do some of this stuff while I do other things. Fine. I mean, it was nice to have it on on the screen, but we did not get them. Um, I will confirm it was sent out to everyone. Okay. Who was appointed from the selectman for the zoning? I don't know who is on that.

You will use asked me and Mike to serve. Oh, that's the one. So, yeah, those two, Mike and there's too much going on. I know. Got to be a full-time job. You means Yeah. and Michael and Sheila Riffle are appointed to the POG special housing committee on that.

Okay. Um and Harold and not Harold Howard rather Howard Howard Harold Howard um and um a new member um Rigio um like Mark Michael Rio I believe is are going to be the other the representatives of the planning commission on on the uh the joint group as well. Okay. And Howard has also attended at Rivercog so he's a rep there in the past. Okay. Thank you. Great. Okay. So, I think we're ready for Miami Beach. We are. So, municipal code site plan

on on the 26HC. Did we vote that? I think you voted because that had a um it has a that had the conditional approval, right? That's right.

Yeah. We can send that if you want. I don't think we need all 80 sheets. Okay, that's fine. Two more copies back there. If you need them, you want to pay for it.

That's blind. Oh, it's the six.

Okay. Good evening. Um, my name is Lin Ray and this is Walter Dale who's our um I'm the project manager. He's the project engineer and we're here on behalf of Miami Beach Association for their sewer and association improvement project. See if I can advance system right there.

We're just going to go over some background on the project. Um, and we also have some um overviews of the plans as well that we can go into detail on. Um, just some information that's in the application. So, the project's located in um uh the Miami Beach Association neighborhood. Um it consists of like a fully developed residential area in the coastal community with uh a network of narrow roads um some existing storm drainage infrastructure and individual on-site uh septic systems. The project that's being proposed is entirely in um existing public rights of way and previously disturbed areas within a 7.23 acre area. And the site's also um influenced by tidal waters including um Swan Brook. Um the neighborhood is essentially currently served by a aging infrastructure with failing or undersized storm drainage pipes um CMPS and PVC and individual septic systems with long-term maintenance and water quality concerns. And it's currently um under a CTE consent order. Um, let me just go to the next slide.

Can you tell me when that consent order was done? Um, is it 2020? I thought it did. 2021, but doesn't look like

I can look it up for you and get right back to you. I wanted to say 2021, but that could be incorrect. There was a delay with the project due to COVID. Um so um the Miami Beach Association improvements is part of a coordinated um regional uh network of um with Old Lime Shores Beach Association and Old Colony Beach Association um to construct the public sanitary sewer system within um each one of the neighborhoods. This one in particular um is focused strictly on Miami uh Beach Association. Um but the systems essentially will connect um a shared sewer that conveys boat to wastewater treatment facility in New London. Um and the town control sound view area is also will also connect into the system and that's also under a separate CTDep consent order which I'll I'll get back to you on.

So can I just stop you for sound not under consent order right at understood. Um so each neighborhood as you called it will be coming to us then separately. So there there was already previously approved um under a special permit um for old line zoning in February of 2022 that included the other two associations. We did that during co it was hard but

yeah so Miami Beach just happened to not be you know ready to kind of feed into that. So, the other two were already approved under that. Um, and that was in February of February 14th, 2022. Um, yeah. So, the um neighborhood uh is looking for the individual septic systems. Um um and this like I said, the Swan Brook um just go to the next slide. I can just show you also some of the um some of the photos of um within Miami Beach. Um two of the crossings um that are uh near Swan Brook are Liberty and Clifton Street crossings which uh we'll go through a little bit in a little bit more detail um in the next few slides over um what's being actually proposed.

These are all the existing conditions. Yeah, these are existing conditions. Okay, so um this is just a little bit about the purpose and need um just needing to uh comply with the consent order through deep for the construction of the sewer. Um improve storm drainage and um also the uh title crossings, replace those crossings with three-sided box covert. Um, and those are at Clifton and Liberty Street.

Let's go to the next slide. Okay. So, to run through the proposed activity. So, the sewer, as Lynn mentioned, is going to be within the existing rightways of the road. Um the installation of the sewer, the final conditions will be be put back as the repaving of the roadway as it is currently. Um the installation will be open cut on all roads except for Corsino Avenue up to Liberty Street in which it will be directionally drilled and directionally drilled is a nonopen cut installation method. So we don't know what either of those mean. Can you help?

Yeah. So the open cut would be with a regular excavator digging into the soil and making a whole trench system. While directional drilling, you would dig on one end and then you dig on the other and you would horizontally drill through the soil with limited impacts between those two points. And so that would limit any of the erosion sim control or disturbances to your inland wetlands or tidal wetlands or any of the other protected areas along. Um so just to give you a plan view look up close one of the sheets. This is just a a general view of the sheet. Hopefully everyone can see this. But here in the dark black line here is the sewer system that in between the other black lines here. And I can bring this closer. Some of this may be a little

tough to see, but this is the edge of road here and here. So here's the sewer itself that is going to be installed in between the existing pavement edge of road lines. And that's consistent to the majority of the streets here as they're all asphalt currently. And then sewer l would extend from that sewer to the property lines themselves. And just for clarification, is this exactly the same approach that the other neighborhoods? Correct. Y is this and is this to your point to to piggyback on that is this the same proposal that the zoning commission approved initially? We never did.

I thought we did. Oh, no. We didn't do Miami. We did. So, Miami was You may you may remember Miami was submitted. It was submitted and then um uh in December of 20 uh 2021, I think. Yeah. Um and then in January, um they, you know, took the application, um yeah. fact because um there was they wanted to get the also the SDF in um and yeah the structures dudge and Phil there was another yeah we're going to go through it later I'm going to walk you through the permits because it's very complicated the problem was that that this section had problems with water

surface water right but yeah nothing nothing changed from that initial application so that other special permit with the other to um old colony. That one was that one was Yeah, that one was approved with the condition of this you know what I mean being um approved later. Yeah, exactly. So I guess if you are if in this application there's anything different because I wasn't on the commission

that is different from the other neighborhoods, would you mind pointing that out to us? Well, yeah, but I think it's more than that. This is, and I'm not, and I think this is what's confusing everybody. There was a p petition. Yeah. A permit issued for the sewer because that impacted everybody. But you're also putting in storm water stuff that is different than the other folks. The other ones do have storm drains as well. Yeah. They were just part of a prior package that was approved. Miami Beach just wasn't included in that package because at that time there was other permits and their plans that had lagged behind. So, but you're seeking a separate permit from us at this point. Correct. Or the Miami Beach.

Yes. Because we don't have a case number assigned to this. So, it's not just amend, you know, updating the other permit. This is a new permit application. It would be a new This would be a new separate approval postal site plan, right? Yes. Yes. And so, do we have a number for it or we Well, we we could assign a number for it. It doesn't have a number yet, but Okay. Well, what I guess what I'm saying is is do we have a number? So, that like where are we with with I'm just trying to figure out the process before we hear the details. Are it's a coastal site plan.

Is it? Yes, it is a coastal site plan. It has been sent to DEP. We have not got comments back from deep yet at this point in time. Okay. It's during the 35day window. Yeah, there we're still in the 35day statutory review period for deep for the deep because we submitted that to you in last month. So, do we I guess we we're and where they are. Are we expected to approve tonight or are we looking to

Well, since you have not heard back from Deep, you certainly can wait to see what Deep says. I'm not expecting Deep to say much because it's all more or less in the grand in the streets. But um if you would given the magnitude of what we're talking about, if you want to wait for Deep's comments, then you can hear it. Continue it based on whatever Deep has to say. But I think it's worth at least getting stuff on the record tonight since we're here. You know, you have Well, but that's why I was surprised. Like I said, all of a sudden, I'm looking and it didn't have a case number on it. So, did we have Jacobson or somebody equivalent helping us last time when we did the other two? Um, yeah, this is huge. We had I believe we did. Okay. Yeah, it was um

No, was Tom. Tom Medat. This is before you hired Jacob and I think this is before I got here. It was so I believe this is going to be we can do ourselves. Okay. Uh should I I will send the package out to this point Jacobson since Metap's retired. Um so and he can reference I guess what Tom did or how Tom went about it or okay maybe he doesn't even need that but

because I think and this is this may was my misunderstanding. I thought it was that the permit had expired and we were just looking to extend it not that we needed to hold the permits. Yeah, I I I was I was also unclear as to what we were doing here tonight and I apologize that it doesn't seem to gotten the attention it deserved here, but we will send it up to Jacobson. We will it already has been referred out deep. We have not heard back. Um if you want to continue it next month, that's okay. I will get comments in in the interim and let's just move just so that we know what our process is. Thanks. No, I I understand. I just

um so the want to go through this. Let's get this. Yeah, because if we have any questions that we can he's going to be sent to the engineer, but we might have questions that come up. Right. Then the other proposed activity is the storm drainage or storm water improvements. Um that consists of existing replacement of storm water piping within the existing footprint on Columbus and Washington avenues. the enlargement of storm drainage piping along Forsino, Biscane Boulevard, Clifton Street, and Pond Road. There'll be catch basin installations along Forino and Lincoln Road. And then the extension of the storm water system past its current extent in Miami.

Forgive my ignorance, but that's not going to be pumped into the sanitary system right now. No, it is not. Are they going to actually redo the crib again or the That is actually into Long Island Sound. You're talking about the outfall that's actually crib. Yeah, that's that's actually outside of Miami Beach's property boundary above the other that's in Hartung or excuse me, not hardness beach. We're making we're making larger catch basins to catch more water, but if it can't go anywhere Yeah. Where is it going? Yeah, it goes up. It would go to Swan Avenue and then out to Long Island Sound.

So, is is anybody considering what the impact of this additional drainage or same drainage is going to have on where's it going? Yeah, it's actually going to um it's actually going to improve the hence the consent order, you know, I mean, because they're in existing septic. So, it's actually going to lessen the the discharge velocity because the, you know, pipe size is going to be bigger, you know what I mean? So, it'll actually help with the flow and the discharge, it'll actually help with water quality because, you know, you're not going to be discharging the septic, you know what I mean? It's going to be part of a sanitary sewer system.

Is it still going how is it getting going to go there? Because everything's so flat. Is there no how does the water It's currently a tidal system. There it is. And and it's currently restricted by the accumulation of sand and silt in the what they call the so-called crib, the outlet to Long Island Sound. So the question I have is you're going to make bigger catch basins to catch more water, but if it can't get out, what does it do? Accumulates or backs up or which I don't see.

So So this is the question. Does it flood during non-title events or is it so that it's it's m basically a a a rainfall event or so do we is that what we're trying to take care of or does it flood during major events where we also have title flooding there are some there are some and there's a combin there's a whole combination of both so I guess that's where we want to make sure that so within the application there is a storm drainage memorandum that was put together that outlined different options for the association that showed improvements to the system. Now, obviously, we're so close to ocean and as you said this,

you can't get the water out if the water's coming in. So, it's more of a quicker evacuation of the water after the storm. So, it will still flood. It still unless you spill it, it's going to get out faster. is the reduce the potential

distor didn't exactly enlarge the piping but there was a specific type of pipe that we used when I was to select them um that filtered the water so there was a reason for doing that it was cleaner do we have any of that data is all I hear see is that you're going to make it larger is there how can we how can you show us that it's really cleaner So the cleaner, as Lynn said, is all those septic systems being abandoned properly

and then that waste water being collected and actually brought to a pump station and evacuated out of the air. So currently because groundwater season as high as about two feet and all those leech fields and the water when the groundwater touches it, it's pulling that pollutant into the storm drainage system of Swan Avenue or excuse me, Swan Brook and out to Long Island Sound.

So how so how is the project phased in terms of because obviously if you don't have the sewers in that's not going to be the case. So is so is it from a phasing perspective you would not do the storm water improvements until the sewer was going in or at least we know that they're you know there's going to be a constru you know what I'm saying because right now we're not sure where the sewers are from a funding perspective. So we don't want to do the storm water stuff without the sewer. So

it's an all-in-one. So the sewers have to go the storm drainage would follow the roads would get reconstructed. So they would also construct the sewers first then come in and do the storm drench just in that same order of importance here. D from the same perspective has stated their main concern is the sewer and they want to see that constructed. Um, and I can just show a quick just a typical sheet of the storm drainage as well, similar to the sewer one. This is on the same sports that I showed for the sewer. any uh main improvements just stop here at Lincoln Road and it's just catch basins here in pipe going down um as we would have the removal of the existing ones and then the new ones just being moved farther up.

So that's all there is for for the improvements on this storm water training for instance on just one sheet. So, this is just a typical sheet. Um, I can roll out some of the other sheets and we can look at them sheet by sheet if you'd like. It still seems funny that we are approving it without knowing really where whether the rest of the system is going to be right. I did understand you're still going to flood, but you're going to get rid of the water fastest. Well, this is this is I think that's important that she said that after the storm event. after the storm event. But if the but if the outlet on it'll still look like that for the car, but if the outlet is clogged, it'll be cleaner, too. It's not going to get out any faster.

So, they've got to do something with the outlet to Long Island Sound then. Yes. Then I agree. The water will go back. The tide goes out. But it's but the pipes are the pipes are already they just did it right and they're halfway clogged again. There's no topography there. So they didn't take what unless they fill the whole thing, this scenario is always going to exist, right? So it's So you guys are engineers. You understand what our problem is? No. Yeah. They know exactly. Yeah. So you can put in all these beautiful pipes, but they said it'll lead to nowhere. The bridge to nowhere. Bridge to nowhere. This is it. Um but if Miami Beach still wants to do that, is that the idea? They want to do it.

That's what they want to do. They have to. It's a hammer. It's the sewer that's the key here. Yeah, I understand the sewer. Yeah, the storm drainage. Cleaner stuff, but it's still water that's going to be potentially lying around because it doesn't go. It's absolutely going to It'll be cleaner. Yeah. So, you might want to change your picture and leave the car out that's sitting in the water because it's going to be that still going to be there. Going to be that way. In fact, it might be higher. We'll use a put a guy in a kayak. Yeah, we don't need AI for that. You just go down there after I've already seen that. You don't need Yeah, I've got pictures of that. You don't need AI, but at least it'll be clean. It'll be cleaner. Yeah, cleaner.

So, I guess we're not giving you a hard time. No. Ourelves, but it it is kind of they're valid. They're valid comments.

Um, just to highlight the two stream crossings. So the pictures on the left here for Liberty and Clifton Street, the existing pipes are deteriorated metal pipes. Um on Liberty Street and then on Clifton Street, they're actually concrete pipes. Since especially with the deterioration of that metal pipe made the replacement of it for this concrete cover a main reason to do it just so that way that metal pipe you wouldn't want that to fail if someone drives over it because it's rusting the salt water as we all know with metal very corrosive and similarly with the concrete pipes up there they're actually two pipes And so the two pipes that are installed, the area is actually restricted in two straws instead of just one big opening. So we're trying to just make it uniform. So it's going to be that same over section for both crossings.

And have you um made because sedimentation is a huge problem. Is there access for removal of sedimentation? Yeah, there'll be a lot more access than is currently shown on that. I mean, the maintenance of these is going to be huge. So, you just have to make sure that they can get in, clean them out, and it should be part I mean, there should be a maintenance plan as part of the storm water permit. Absolutely. This, you know, this is just not going to work without the maintenance. Okay. Yeah, we can definitely take that comment back. Um if that's part of the permit or if that's a just general kind of we can definitely

yeah I mean it should it should be how you maintain the storm water structures and do the you know the operation and maintenance of these should be part of the storm water plan. So for the project impacts and best management practices uh the work as stated is primarily within the existing road rightways or previously disturbed areas. um sediment erosion control. We have six plan sheets that cover the entire Miami Beach association area which all each plan sheet will highlight the different storm drainage or excuse me erosion and semicontrol measures. For instance, there'll be stone check dams installed on the side of the road where slopes from 156 down to

Long Island Sound are steeper. There is silt fence installed at the end of Fifth Avenue before it goes into the tidal wetland pond there to catch any runoff from the construction process. And there will be silt sacks within all the existing catch basins which will be maintained by the contractor during construction and changed. And then just to highlight some of the other details, there'll also be a use of a frack tank during your dewatering of the construction. What's that?

A frack tank is basically a large settling basin. So when they pump out the construction trench, usually have sediment that gets stirred up with the groundwater and then they'll pump that into the frack tank, which will then allow that sediment to settle out. Okay. And

there goes the go. Um, just to highlight some of the other items a little bit more closely. So, here would be your stone check dam would be placed along the gutter of the roadways. And this would be mainly in steep sloped streets to slow down the water as it's coming. So those are permanent constru things that you're well they would be temporarily installed during construction.

And then here would be your silt sack which would be installed inside the catch basin. This would collect the runoff as it goes into the existing catch basins. These would filter out the sediment and then these would be either pumped out or changed on a frequent basis where they're directed by the engineer or anyone from the town who comes and visits during construction. We can make sure that these stay cleaned. Um, and then here would be like a in another instance if the frack tank. Otherwise, you could also use a dewatering bag which the pump from your trench goes through and then into a giant bag which would then have straw waddles waddles around it. Then it would filter the water through the bag and then it would go out through the straw bottle out into an area that discharge of the water would be reasonable.

The place where it won't go. Oh, it will go if it's low tide. place.

So that last entry, no increase in imperous areas. That means your project will not increase impervious areas or the area where this is done. They should not add impervious area. That would be our project. So the installation is sewer. Yeah. Because it's also probably recommended for the area itself that they should not be adding impervious area. Right. Are you talking about the housing, the homeowner properties? Miami Beach itself, right? I cannot speak to that. This project is not extending into any wetlands or any new areas. It's all Yeah. That's no increase in improvement.

Yeah. And and all of the impacts are in within disturbed areas or within the right away. Um the only the impacts that are highlighted up there we put on that's part of our structures dredge and fill permit which is the title uh impacts for those crossings on spawn street those 12 um crossings but they're going to be within the same exact footprint that they're already in. They're just going to be um like rehabilitated and upgraded within that foot that footprint. So there's not going to be any direct impacts to you know beyond that to the wetlands or new disturbance.

So with the wetlands water courses as well as you know you're fixing some culverts that exist and what are you um creating any more piping? Are you daylighting streams or are is it you basically use you know replacing pipes where there's pipes and leaving it open where it's open. Correct.

So for instance like here's a good example of the impact plan on Pond Road. Um and this pipe run here is existing. There's actually a photo on one of the earlier sites of the catch basin right here that was deteriorated. This whole run is proposed to be replaced in kind. So if the catch basin was there, catch basin would go back properly installed. And in a similar vein, here's a s like just a snippet of that same table just showing very small highlights of the areas that there were highlighted impacts whether it was within the coastal jurisdiction line, the high tide line or tidal wetlands throughout this replacement area or any of the improvements within the limits. And if you changed any elevations of any of the catch basins either to be able to make sure that they are catching all the water they need to catch the end or so that you know um when they flood during a title event in terms of okay this is at such and such an elevation and we can expect water in the street or wherever um at such and such a tide tidal event. Do you know that?

Um none of the gradings change significantly. some of the contours shifted a little to help channel the water, but nothing in terms of filling in the flood plane or filling in. Yeah, I mean I'm I'm more looking at the I mean I have seen catch basins not set to grade. So I want to make sure I mean sometimes water can't get into the catch basin because they're not set to grade or they've shifted and whatever. So that's what I'm I'm looking at like what grade are they going to be set at? Do we know what grade they're going to be set at? And

stay in Miami Beach with this grading or is it going to go to the town side? Well, not not only that, it's a matter of it's a matter of it what's the grading does the water flow to the catch basin to make because it's so flat. I mean, it's really really critical that you get the grading right for the catch basins and then also for the analysis with that Jacobson would do to say like okay, you know, 10year rainfall event, this is going to allow water to get out. Um, but if I've got, you know, some type of another event with major title stuff going on, um, where am I going to have flooding? Because now I've got big pipes with a lot of water getting poured into this neighborhood. Um,

and and where's the and where's the catch basin? So, I I I it's we just need to I think we just need to know all those details. Make sure we have all those details. Yeah, I will ship it out to Jacobson first thing in the morning and we will get comments back from him. Hopefully the time for Xbox's May 11th meeting. I'll make sure that the May 11th date is firm in his mind because the reason he's always late getting back to us on this stuff. So

yeah, I mean I do appreciate larger pipes are going to let it water when the tide finally goes out let the water go out. But that's only if the water can get to the catch basin and they're set right. When on flat very flat terrain, it's where I've just seen so many catch basins not set right. And it's like guess what? There's water in somewhere. There's water on the street, but there's it it's it's not going to go uphill even 6 in. It's got to be set to grade. So, you just need to make sure, you know, be really specific about that. Yep. Okay,

understood. Okay. So, um just to go through some of the permits um for this project. Um we have an old lime inland wetlands um water course uh permit um which was received in 2021. It's up for renewal um this June and we're going to um file an extension for that. Um, we also have the special permit that was granted in February of 2022 and that encompasses all three of the um of the associations including Miami Beach. Um, we received um a section 404 self-verification um in uh October of 2025. Um we have uh our GP storm water GP renewal. We we was renewed on um March 17th of this past of this year. And then we have a structures dredge and fill which I mentioned which includes title wetlands and section 401 water quality certificate is currently under review with deep. We submitted that last June. Um they've been out to the site and they're um wrapping up their review. They just have a couple of comments that we're working through. So we're expecting that will be forthcoming. And we also have a flood management certification um which was just um extended at the end of last year to June 9th, 2027.

What what would the last one entail? the thing that's extended to 37 a flood management certification. Um if it's a state project, it you know it has a a state trigger funding. Um it has to go through an FMC review with with DEP and they basically will look at you know look at the project for review. Make sure that you're not um you know changing you know any hydraologic conditions or storage or um anything from the project.

Um it's a basis. So, it's not going to you won't be criticized if it's still going to be flooding because of where the water has to go. They look at they looked at this at this project and this is the the FMC um was for all three of of the projects in totality like so it was all three associations the first one the one where the water's going right yeah for the three associations for this these projects yes I I don't know about the other um the other project of concern which is outside of the the project area is not holding it up because water has no place to go. They don't care about it.

So, they're looking they're looking to make sure you're not filling create and making sure you're not exacerbating conditions even if you can't totally alleviate them.

Improving again. So, just to kind of go through the coast, the consistency with coastal policies. Um, the project is, you know, consistent with the the Connecticut Coastal Management Act objectives. It maintains and improves existing infrastructure within the developed area. It's not expanding development or impervious coverage. Um, it's preserving the coastal processes um in Swanbrook. Um the improvements essentially will reduce that septic related nutrient loading which we talked about to the coastal waters. Um improve the water quality in Swan Brook and Long Island Sound. Um and also maintain or improve that hydraulic conveyance at the stream crossings um that we talked about. Um and no adverse impacts to coastal resources um the adjacent beach system um or any of the water dependent uses um are anticipated from this project. Do you do when you when D gave you direction to that they really wanted the water minimized because you know getting rid right now there's there's flooding and they've got on-site septic which is the worst case scenario right

but now they're putting in sanitary sewer but they've asked you to address the the the water on site. Did they say at what storm event they were looking for you to do that? I mean were they looking at you to mitigate for the 10year storm event? Is that the the real you know less frequent or I should say more frequent storms do they have have that? So it was actually D did not direct for the storm drainage improvements. That was the association themselves. Oh I thought this is a desperation movement. Yeah. Yeah. No I I I that it actually makes more sense. I thought you had said D wanted to get rid of the water because they wanted to get rid of the storm water or excuse me the sanitary stew

which was polluting the pollutant. the pollutant what Deep was concerned about. You were saying they also wanted to get rid of the surface water because of that. So within the So within the coastal site plan within the coastal site plan permit itself, there was models that were put together that show the existing condition at those different storm. Mhm. So there's a one year that was done um a two-year existing a fiveyear and then 10 year and then there was redder and redder and then

and then there were different alternatives that were evaluated based on that on where we could move catch basins around. Did increasing the pipe help? And the overall recommended alternative was actually a combination of alternative one and alternative two which combined systems of what was proposed in two with proposed in one to under which year scenario or um I tell you in a couple I just they're probably trying to captive two and five maybe up to 10 only because after that you're getting into postal storm. Yeah,

I think you may want to take picture shorting.

I'm not finding it right. That's okay. But I can I can get back to you. No, I I Yeah, it was my It was my misunderstanding. I thought you were saying D also wanted you to take care of the surface stuff, and I'm like, why you do that when you're already taking care of the sanitary? Yeah, apologize about that confusion.

Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. So, the next step is for Jacobson to Well, yeah, we haven't gotten any deep comments back and we're sending out from Jacobson review. We're going to need to wait until that occurs and have you back next month.

So, do we need to motion that? Yeah. Why don't you move to continue it to May? So, we'll take a motion that we um continue Okay. May continue it to May 11th. A motion by Jane Marsh. Second. Second by um you do some names now. Denise Savage. All in favor? I I abstain. Okay. Approved. 500 to next month. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. So let's look at what we have left and let's look at the time we have left because

9 or 10 is our hard stop. It's our hard stop is from new discussion at 9:30 because then we have to finish up with

approval of minutes and whatever. So um for those of you in the audience here for informal discussions uh it is 8:46. The policy of the old line zoning commission is that we will not continue any conversations or start any new additional items after 9:30 p.m. We will those will have to then go into the following month. The commission needs to finish up the agenda on its own and then we have a hard stop, a dead hard stop at 10 p.m. So the hard stop for this section because we have three informed informal discussions. Uh Eric Rivercog representation update. is that that

well Martha asked that I add that as an agenda item for each meeting. If one of you guys is going to Riverco, you should Yeah. Whoever that is is going to report back as to any updates they may have from whatever Riverog. So that would be Michael. Is he on that? Michael, I think Michael. Yeah. And recently I've been covering it ad hoc, but I understand that I'm going to be appointed. uh doesn't look like it's happened yet, but nonetheless, we've already covered a lot of what Riverco is up to during the the conversation with Francisco, but I can I can add to that if uh you need to, but it won't be long. So, so that won't be long, right? Correct. Okay.

So, I'm sorry. Would you consider an extra 10-minute extension on the 9:30, the 940 to They've all been Well, let's see how far we get. Right now, I'm going to give you folks 15 minutes each. um to give us an inform have to have have your informal discussion um with us. So that'll get us hopefully within our time frame. So the first one that we have is an informal discussion regarding potential development at 230 Shore Road. Joe Ren again indigo land design. I took some of the words out for you there. important questions. We had a bonus for only 14. When I collect my first check, yes, you will.

I think we could easily do this within 15 minutes. Um again, for the it's informal discussion, so we don't have to be so formal. Uh but for the record, Joe Ren, professional engineer. Uh with us is Hope Proctor. She's the um would be the project architect. Um and then momentarily we'll have the uh the owners and the other folks involved just do a quick introduction of uh who they are. Um just to introduce you to the the project very quickly. The location is 230 Shore Road. Uh there's a large uh building here currently in the front. Um the special education school that recently approved went in that building just to familiarize yourself. um to the back of this property. Uh it's a fairly large property. To the back of this property is just that's the parking lot for that building. And then there's open land. The proposal here would be to construct a new building. Uh the use of the building, which is why we're here in front of you discussing this informally this evening, is um a recre recreation-based membership automotive club. So for folks that uh have classic automobiles and um we provided I'm not sure or if you have the handouts probably pass those out now.

Yeah. So to avoid any confusion we thought we'd do some images you can paint those to help clarify what kind of club and what kind of atmosphere we're looking at. It's more of like a we're talking a high-end white glove white glove service almost like a museum quality on the inside. Um not like there will be cars there but they're for show and to walk around when you're when they're entertaining in the club. So this facility we the use of this facility we kind of mirror with like a yacht club or a tennis club or a golf club something where it's membership based.

Um and the purpose here instead of being golf or yachts boats whatever it might be or automotives classic collectible uh vehicles. Um there would be some if you look through those photos and renderings there would be some it's really a social club social type recreational atmosphere very similar. Um there are references in the current regulations to this type of use in the C30 zone and there are other existing uses in town um in these zones and other zones that replicate this again like the yach club and like the golf club, black haul club, bowl country club and so forth that are very very similar um to this with the exception of the main thing is not golf, not boats, it's cars. So, but how are you separating these uses because it's all on one piece of property?

Um, so this pink line potentially if that was um what the owners would like to do is subdivide the property and the pink line would meet um the subdivision regulations and the zoning regulations for two separate lots of you see. that that parking that is now supposedly for the building that was constructed would have to be redone for the front. You would either be reconfigured or there would be cross easements for them to share. Well, how do we do that as far as approving it?

Um, we've done that several times on several different types of projects where um you re we provide the language the crossment language to you. to review that cross seizement language or your legal council reviews that uh cross seizement language um and that's goes in with the special permit approval um which is enforceable. So crossseasement would be for maintenance and for use of the parking facilities getting utilities back it would be pretty much over

be used two different times or something. Uh the front building has uh multiple different uses and operates more on business hours, right? Like a 8 to 5, 8 to 6 type deal. Uh this will be I'm not sure what the hours would be. We haven't really gotten that far yet. Do you have an idea what the hours would be? Generally similar generally except for entertaining events whatever guidelines and weekends more weekends more weekends you know that's when the folks that are working that own that's when they would come and socialize and get together and and have their recreation

and have you have you actually figured out what kind of parking each one of these uses need? We haven't gone that far yet. We wanted to just come discuss with you about this the use and how it aligns with the C30. And the reason I flag it and the reason they're here is the building is going to store cars. Yeah, that I was just going to ask that question. I I sense that. Okay. And you just went through a great deal of effort to strip the C30 zone of self storage and particularly your concern was cars. So I basically trucks

well vehicles being stored there and oils and other things that were tied to all of that. Um, in any event, I I was saying, look, given the size of cars and whatever else, what's your accessory and what's your primary? I was concerned that the cars were taking up more space and therefore were the primary use and that the club use was essentially subordinate to the cars. Um, and that's why I said, "Whoa, I don't want this going forward without it coming to the commission and seeing what the commission's temperature was about cars being stored in a large barn just down from where you guys had a big fit over 250 Shore Road and cars being stored in the units there." So, that's why they're here. That's why I sent them here tonight to talk to you, Hooks.

And so, thank you, Eric, because that was the question I had. Who owns the cars? Does the club own the cars? Is it like a museum type thing or does do members get to like store their antique vehicles or their highend vehicles? Cars, they're just like the members of the old yacht club keep their book. Yeah. And that's and and what we're looking at is just like it looks to me it looks like trying to subvert that we didn't have storage facility, right? you know that for for cars and here we are creating a storage facility for a car. It's not a storage club.

Not a storage. It's not it's not open to the public. You have to be a member just like your regulations say you have to be a member to belong to this club. There's no storage outside. It's all inside and you can see how beautiful the inside is. You're not seeing these cars. The general public does not see these cars unless they're a member and they go inside the building. substantially different from what we didn't because it was all inside before. Yeah, there was no outside. There was no outside. There was no membership. There was a Well, it was lease versus a membership. So, I'm not sure I can see a big difference. But then what's the difference to a to a yacht club? Membership.

We're not trying to compare this to a yacht club. But I am I am I'm making the I'm making the inference. It's not that similar to we've never said in town that we don't want any boats parked in storage areas. How about a golf club? A golf course is much larger than the building. But we don't store cars there either. Golf carnival. What is membership ask? Is it is it like a monthly fee to keep your car there? Is that probably a good time to introduce when I come up? Yeah, absolutely.

How long has this club been in existence? So the cup club will be new yearly formed. Um membership will be on a yearly uh likely yearly basis and formatted very similarly to uh like a club or golf club. So uh you know probably a buy in in the beginning uh yearly membership fee uh members will have the opportunity to have roles within the organization. um you know committees for things like uh social events in you know sort of you know uh verticals within uh different interests. So it might be the classic car folks. It might be the modern car folks will you know say hey this is my interest and I'd like to have um you know Tuesday every every Tuesday night in uh the third quarter is a special um time that we you know share our interests and uh you know focus on a particular segment of uh of collector conversation.

Would my my hybrid would not be allowed in the club then? Good question. It's a good question. Um, it would be a bit of a unicorn in the club, but I don't know is I imagine it would. Yeah. I don't know. Is it would be disallowed? Yeah. I mean, it is very similar to a yach club. You know, could the could the small rowboat sit next to the 80 foot yach club? So, just like that,

you know, I you know, um, my name is Kelly Angelini. owned the uh 230 Shore Road for 26 years. I believe I had Simpson Healthcare there. Um and that had business a couple years ago. So, as you guys know, there have been a variety of different groups that have been coming in speaking with you. So, we're delighted to bring in very wonderful new businesses and new groups into the town. um wellness, mathematicians and you know a school for for special folks. Um this is a very unique idea. We are also um we desire to put technology on the front end of this. Um AI is very crazy right now but one of the things you would get with your Toyota is to understand exactly who else owns that type of car because you would have an AI footprint as part of your membership. and exactly how your car was built, where it was built. If you want to build a book on it, you can do that through the technology part of it. So, we we not only want to look at the preservation and the learning side of historic automobiles, but just how you can bring technology in. Where's

the membership target for the club? I'm sorry. What' you say, Mike? What would the membership target be for the club and would ownership of a classic vehicle be a requirement for membership?

Um, a similar question. It wouldn't I don't we haven't defined right now uh whether ownership of a classic vehicle would be a requirement. Um, that is our membership target. It would be the folks that are in the clubs. it won't be that because one of the other things that we're looking at is um building the facility so it could conform to some of the higher level requirements um that you need to ensure like a million-doll Porsche to be in uh indoors in storage. I just briefly talk about how many members did you have in mind?

Oh, it's very limited. Uh we would see it to be somewhere between 50 and 100 depending upon um you know how we how we build this out and but very private very small. How how often do you expect the membership to be in the in the you know use it as a club?

Yeah. Um I I think we would plan uh probably quarterly events probably around some of the season. So they get to store their car for a year and then you'd have quarterly events. So that means like so four times a year they'd have events because you're storing but you're letting them store their car for a year. That's one of the things. Um I think the other the other thing is uh they could come in for different types of education or just to use the club with their family on a on an open basis. you know, um I know you had some depictions of the outdoor space that some of these functions could have and um you know, I mean I would be a member of the club. I could see myself going there on a more weekly basis and certainly during good weather.

Um you think about other clubs whether it's a yach club or a country club most would you allow any car maintenance? Uh not by not by members. No. it. What then? What are you talking about? In the description on the last page, it talks about maintenance and detailing. So, you would is it offered as a service? Offered as a service, amplify the administration, right? A lot of it would be done offsite. So, you know, mechanical repairs and that sort of thing we work with,

but you act as like a facilitator of it. Okay, that makes So, as a club member, um you know that your car is being taken care of and there was a thing that came up the last time you used it. Um that the next time you come back, it's because you're tapped into a network, a bigger network. And so, with the the events, um you you said you'd use it on a weekly basis. So would there would be some kind of catering service, bar service as associated with it then as well or would this be completely BYO kind of a thing? So I know we would we have thought about an area for

like a like a lounge area. So it wouldn't be like a catering kitchen per se, but it would be like at a club. If you go to yach club and they have like bar service and maybe some small foods if especially if you're that would be prepared and served. Not really prepared there. No, but so they're not going to have a kitchen in there, but it's just that like if you want to entertain or if you want to come for the weekend and say I'm like a go on Saturday, there might be somebody there to serve you a drink or something or engaged caterer or engaged. Yeah, catering would be more often. Okay.

So everything's very clean, too. There's not You can see the renderings how it looks. If there's one drop of anything, it's immediately cleaned up. There's nothing that accum accumulates on the ground or leaks outside or anything uh of that nature. It's all in a concrete slab. So, nothing leaks into the floor. See, the problem I'm having is the actual use of the building is still the use that we didn't want. So, even though it's called a club and even though you say, "But our thing is going to be different than how we're going to handle the club." To me, it doesn't seem like it's permitted in the zone. It's not. club is permitted by special permanence.

But we're not going to say that you get to do any kind of club that you want. It's still got to be a club that fits within the other regulations that apply to the zone. And so I don't think you're without a change in the regs, I don't think you can put this in. Um it's interesting because the definition of the club or the the uses don't prohibit automotive. Well, that's why I brought you here and you're getting the sense from the commission and we're 15 minutes.

But it's not just an automotive club. You're as a club, you're doing storage. And don't compare it to Marina. Marina is a is not they may have a yacht club associated with the marina, but they operate a marina as a a different entity. It's not it's it's usually a a yacht club and a marina. It's not the same thing. Not necessarily. No. Yacht clubs are specific to specific sites. Um, sometimes like for instance uh the Guilford Yach Club, it's it's a yacht club that has dockage. It's not a marina.

Yeah. Exactly. It's a place that parks both. So that's but my point is that you're you're you're blending and they're and they're not the same. And and and my personal opinion on this is that like I see this is completely different than a storage facility or self storage facility. Personally, um right now you have a parking lot out there that could park all those cars all day long. Um and you're staring at the car. Now, they're trying to build a structure that houses vehicles as part of a club experience. I I see it completely different than the other members up here. Personally, um I do feel like it is a club. If if it has the criteria that you're talking about, it's not a storage facility. They're not storing. Yeah, they are. They're parking vehicles, but there's nothing. Why do we care that people are parking vehicles inside?

The difference between with a yacht club and this is you don't you with water access. That's the whole point. It's like there's very limited water access. So, it's a different type of a thing here. You don't need there's nothing they're accessing. Yeah. Actually, I disagree. I mean, car enthusiast is you're talking about the if you're only having 1500 members, I have a concept of who you're targeting, right? And so, with all due respect, I love your Toyota hybrid.

Um, Mary Joe. Yeah. But that's that's not what they're going for. And the the the storage requirements for the types of vehicles that it sounds like you're targeting are very specialized, not just from an insurance perspective, but from a long-term care and maintenance. These aren't just, you know, just, you know, my dad's 1990 Mustang that he loves. But that's but that but see, you were talking about the storage piece. I was talking about from the yacht piece. No, I is they're they're not storing they're not just storing it there to store it. They're storing it because they want access to water. Correct. Which is different here. Why did it let me finish then stored on land?

If I could just finish. So if we're we're making the inference to a special use case of a marina is a special use to water. I'm suggesting that this is a special situation because you have a a special class of vehicles that require you can't just put necessarily in your garage. You can't just park in your driveway and put a cover over it for the types of vehicles that they are potentially we haven't seen the details but potentially targeting. Um, so I I think it's a really interesting novel concept. And I guess I would also just be curious how where else do these exist? Like how is this a new trend? I mean, because car enthusiasts are pretty serious. So I would imagine this must exist somewhere else. And I'd be curious for my own research going into our next meeting if I could you could give me the names of some other ones that I could just have a look at to see how they um how they operate for my own understanding. understanding our market. There are a few of these emerging. Um there's one down in Westport right now.

Um and it's a club uh and uh it has a pretty small you'd call it kind of a showroom. Uh members are not allowed to drive their vehicles in and out. It's access only. Your vehicles are typically delivered to you. Um is there one in Essex when the old there there used to be one in Essex in the in the Siv Sullivan? Um, what's that? That was a private one. Collection. Yeah. But this has a similar vibe to it. Very much. There was a a beautiful discussion on a 9200 square foot home that's wants to be built. That individual may very well have car flexion. Yeah. Um, and typically they're building their own Yeah.

You know, places or there's three here and four there and five there.

And so, um, and and they they go to very elite places. So there it's emerging. You see this more in uh more urban markets like so we're on a on a time crunch here. This is kind of an informal discussion. Okay. Um in my estimation this is just a different type of a storage facility which is against our regulation. So since we're having an informal discussion would this come be should this come before the commission? I I can't see a way forward at least in my book. I don't know how the other commission members feel.

I I at this point without really I would say you've given us minimal details. You haven't even figured out your business plan from what I No, no, we do. We do have the business plan. Well, you didn't express it very well though when I asked about membership, but I asked what kind of cars you're I I would say those are important details. Um, I would really need to see a lot more details and I would like to know why you would think this would fly in Old. Do you have a is there a secret market of this kind of thing that I'm unaware of? Yes, we have multiple billionaires in this town. I have old car that's sitting outside getting ruined right now. Yes, we do. We do. Yeah. The the the type of people that would have these are here in Madison and

Yeah. etc., etc. And um you're right. It's I'm a serial entrepreneur. I've been creating businesses in this town for 25 years and this is a pretty novel idea. Does it have to be an old lime? No. Would it service the surrounding community? It we we anticipate it to be filled up with waiting list within a month. Yeah, it's all dissected. It's a very a very particular part of the community. For example, you've got this club space. You would not be allowing the community as a whole to rent to rent it. But yacht clubs don't either. I I'm not thinking of this as a yach club. I know I know that's an average zoning regulation, not a yach club.

We understand I guess what I'm hearing. But would you but would you see I guess other details I'd like to see is obviously the hours going to be hugely important. Would you see these folks being, you know, test driving their vehicles out here all day common neighborhoods? You know, that would be something I I know the neighborhood would be very interested in. Yeah. So, well, thank you for uh hearing us tonight. Um we are taking away that it's a

somewhere between a soft and a hard um because it's it's viewed as a storage facility, which is it is not. Um you no one could store any of these vehicles in any kind of storage facility. They would not be insurable and the owners would never never ever do that. So, but I do appreciate your time and your candidness and um you guys do a great job in the town. So, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.

Do you want these photos back? I'm going to collect the photos because I don't want them floating around.

Go through these short on time. I need to connect to the team. So Eric is in the waiting room. I was and then I and then I got timed out. So I have to get back to

mouse in my pocket. Right. It's your big change. Oh, yeah. No, we're not.

Okay, we're running out of time. So, we've got one more after you if we can if we can in next month. Okay. So, I'm Amy. Let me

I had a Chevy that was try to start that way. Gosh. There we go. That's

hopefully that should work. Okay. Sorry about that. Uh Amy Susan's uh Miles Brown here from um Amenta Emma Architect. Um we're here representing Heritage Housing and Sim Simon Conover Company. Uh New Brainard is from Simon Conover. David McCarthy is from Heritage Housing. This is with respect to 220 Shore Road. So, right next door to the application you just heard. Um, Miles is going to walk you through. This is a um very high level concept for a residential development on the property and Miles will walk you through and then I can talk to you about the sort of uh zoning issues associated with it. Great. Thank you very much.

And you should be sharing screen momentarily. Thank you. I hear that's not working for 15 minutes. This is not there.

Yeah. Thank you very much. Uh again, Miles Brown with Amena M Architects. Try to go through this quickly. Um the proposed site is at 220 Shore Road uh at kind of the southeast end of Old Lime uh near the beach community close to the Ox Nest uh beach community there in the upper left right across the street on Shore Road. And um we drew some inspiration from you know some old postcards of old beach community. So the architecture really wants to be connected to that type of architecture, the New England vernacular and the sea coast. Um the scale of the development will be very much in keeping with the neighborhoods that are across the street. You can see on the upper right is sort of a a diagram of the uh the streetscape of of of the Hawks necks beach area across the street and similar scale twotory homes. Um very walkable streets, very linear connection towards the beach. This is again uh bird's eye views of the uh the neighborhood across

all built. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Um the next slide is the uh on the upper left is the is the site. The area in green is really the developable area. Um we're bound by the railroad on the north side, show road on the south, and two uh wetland boundaries on the east and the west. and sort of the developable areas within the setbacks or beyond the setbacks of those wetland areas. As you can see, it's a it's an existing uh driving range. Fairly nondescript flat flat site. Um, excuse me for one second. Is this the Marada property? No, no, no. This is Cherry Stone's driving range. Driving range. Okay. Driving range. Yep. Okay.

So, yeah, there there there she is. Um and uh so you know our inspiration for the development of the neighborhood um we're kind of drawing it from a typology called the pocket neighborhood. Maybe some of you are familiar with that that concept. Sort of very uh similar to New England streetscapes uh treeline streets with homes developed around um little pockets of green similar to town greens. um the the vehicle becomes kind of secondary uh tucked around behind and hidden from view. Again, very very walkable type community. So again, the scale of of sort of these images, you know, twotory homes maximum, lots of front porches, lots of uh focus on connection and and building community uh walkable, bikable. Those are the kinds of things that we want to draw from in this

not shared walls. There is some there is some shared walls uh between so um I'll show you this like you know the the image on the lower left has you know multiple units together but they sort of look like individual buildings um and there might be some step stepping so actually the picture in the upper center uh top center view those are those actually have shared walls connecting them but they're the you know sort of creates a allows us to create more green space really by keeping the building for green Eric are shared walls presently allowed None of this is presently allowed in the zone. That's why they're here. Yeah. So, this is really we're here to talk to you about the concept and and where we're going with it.

No, clearly work would need to be done between what is allowed there now and what they're proposing. And that's why they're here to talk to you over.

So, I'm going quickly, but yeah, feel free as you're put. Um, so the next couple of pages are some uh renderings of really really early level concept renderings sort of the the look and feel the character of the neighborhood that we're trying to create. Again, here's looking uh kind of bird's eye view looking over um series of screens that are interconnected crossing the street. You can see the streetscape is very walkable with parallel parking um sidewalks and the parallel parking is really for visitors. the actual parking for the for the community is is tucked um in behind the units and we'll show that in a moment in the site plan. So, kind of a more eye level view of sort of the character of the neighborhood. Again, two-story homes, front porches, walkable sidewalks, treeline, streets. It's kind of the big idea. Um and here's here's lastly is a site plan. Um on the left side is Shore Road, the right side is a railroad. And um starting at the beginning of the site as you enter kind of cursor is working main entry drives. Here's Cherry Stones uh right here. Um, main drive would be sort of like a demarcated, you know, main entrance with a a small commercial building, roughly 2600 square feet, sort of activate the street edge with a little bit of parking out front. And then beyond that starts the the neighborhood, which is again very intentionally designed streetscape with sidewalks on both sides, parallel parking, treelined, and then the perpendicular to the the home. Sorry, my mouse is being great. But perpendicular to the the main street are these um green spaces which connect the the homes, sort of the pockets, the town greens. And then the also those skinny streets that you see perpendicular are the service roads for the parking. So the the garages that you can't see from the

street are are tucked in um at the ground floor behind the units. They're actually um there's each each building has um upper level units facing two directions and then um a lower level unit that faces the the town green. As you continue down um the development kind of in the knuckle there sort of you see a a community building area surrounded by a park-like setting with swimming pool and some outdoor amenities, playscapes, maybe a dog park and then so sort of another continued neighborhood as you get towards the back. We're constrained on the sides by um the wetland areas as well. There's a loop, a a walking loop around the perimeter of the development that sort of connects all of these various neighborhoods together. Um so they sort of the exercise trail um everything design will be you know very carefully looked at from a sustainability standpoint. Um native planting, low cut off fixtures, you know, very energy efficient

about watering. So septic is a is a very good point. Um there is no sewer there today. This will be a a a new septic development. So we're going to have to do cluster septic devel early early. We haven't looked at that other than do you know that there's been a there's been testing and our understanding is the site um has adequate soils and appropriate you know to to handle this kind of capacity. The town has a lot of that information. But that that preliminary work has been done basis not on an individual site.

Correct. It would be a community system permitted through deep. Um but that initial work to see if soils were suitable and that kind of thing to support tapped into the water supply that goes down to white sand. Where where are you getting water? Yes, I believe we have public uh we would connect through public water is my understanding. There's no public there's no public water Connecticut in the in the road. Correct. Do they have capacity to serve you because they haven't had we've had some challenges down there. They ran out of water this summer in the summer before.

Um my understanding is that those preliminary conversations have happened but obviously if we were to move forward we'd be having those those conversations. I think what we were um trying to to understand u the clients frankly want to do this in a cooperative fashion um if uh and that's why we came in with this this is a highle plan obviously we have a preliminary development summary um and did some preliminary field work but I think all the a lot of the details um and I can go into some of the zoning thoughts that we discussed with Eric um but we would obviously have more work to do before coming back to you with a, you know, a final application.

Even though you're trying to limit what's on the other side of the street, this looks very dense for old wine. Understanding that it is a market that you don't have in town right now, and that is exactly what we're looking at. Um, overall, what the goal is is to um mirror some of the R10 standards, which is what is across the street. Um, but we didn't. So, we don't have R10 anymore. We're not creating new R10. These are pre-existing R10. R30 was the sort of basic idea of a town when Sony got underway.

Under understand and I think what we're trying to say is we're interested in providing we think there's a need and we're interested in providing a a product that does not exist in town. We think we've heard from um and David or Nuke can talk to you a little bit more. Um but that's that's ultimately the idea is to provide something that does not exist in town consistent. Would any of these be categorized as affordable? You took the question.

So what the proposal would be is that 15% would be at area 80% area median income and 15% would be at 100% area median income. It's not an 830G development. Um, but we would have, and David is frankly a industry expert in this area. So, if you have questions about that, but that would be the intent is that we'd have 15% at sort of a fairly high-end but below market rate. So, yes is the short answer. Yes. It's just I just want to be clear, it's not affordable under the statute sort of thing. It's what's the 100%? I I don't think I've ever heard that term.

100% of area median income. So it's practically speaking it's likely below market rate but not as affordable as would be compliant with the state statute. Okay. Average the only difference it's deeed restricted that way and therefore these are going to be owned by Simon like as an entirety not individual units kind of the idea that this would be a rental community rental community. Cool.

Yeah, when they talked about the the market, what they're really trying to attract is is folks that, you know, maybe are downsizing or could be selling their their homes, don't want to deal with the maintenance of the of the home anymore. Want still want that feeling of a single family community, you know, really walkable streets, you know, that neighborhood still feels like quaint New England villages. Um but uh you know again sort of has a or a rental option because there aren't a lot of those either. Yeah. And and as you can see what we have in the preliminary development mix is there's a fair number of two bedrooms in this Yeah.

you know concept which is um something that we see certainly in the work I do and Conover does overall we see a lot of studio and ones here. We think there's um you know an opportunity for twos where people might be you know want that extra bedroom not necessarily because they're going to use it as a bedroom but they may want to use it as an extra um space but there may also be um you know people who are interested in the the two-bedroom option. So, um, and I think the other thing just to note that that Miles talked about in the plan, but I think is certainly something atypical to the multif family you might otherwise see, is you'll notice that a lot of that parking is in garages. Um, so, you know, to the conversation you just had, um, the intent is not to have, you know, a giant service parking lot or parking garage or something like that. It's it's to have these units um have the garage spaces which feels consistent with again the neighborhood across the street which feels you know is predominantly a single family home. These units are designed to sort of as Miles explained um mirror some of that feel and you know it's it's not a fourstory stick bill apartment complex.

So it's it's not age restricted housing then okay what is and you may have mentioned this I'm sorry I missed it. commercial lot. What is that? So the space right at the beginning at the front of the property um the intention would be that that um building at the front be some sort of commercial option like seven units or like I don't what's the seven restaurant retail something like those are the parking oh these are parking rates. Oh park I'm sorry I see it there. I'm sorry. The commercial space is more would that be more of a community support retail like a community office complex or I mean you know is it

mean they just mean a commercial a commercial retail but not dedicated to that correct not dedicated to the to the development there nothing like a a pharmacy a small grocery store

I think we'd be interested I mean the might be a little small for a grocery because it's or you know pick up bakery, small restaurant. Yeah, absolutely. I think something that um but we think there's an opportunity there kind of consistent with the the location on the street. Um you know provides another option here. So um that's it just from an overall perspective. Um, one of the things that we also looked at was um, and I know that we have the time constraints, but we started a very high level draft of a zoning regulation. Um, as Eric noted, this is not something that's currently permitted in your zoning regulations. So, we knew that going in. Um, we've talked to him about that. Uh the idea would be that it's drafted sort of similar to the format of your PRCD regulation where there is you know sight specific location um definitions and then you know you set out permitted uses bulk criteria things like that um would be the idea. We would incorporate the affordability provision into that um requirement. happy if there were things that you saw that you thought would be important in design considerations, things like that, we could incorporate those into a a draft regulation. Um, and then the same thing the the existing PRCD talks about access, parking, utilities, some of those things we can open space. I was just going to say open space, lighting, um, signage for anything on the commercial that we would sort of mirror what's what's allowed in your

um, rags. So, I think the idea would be that we would um, try to mirror that to the extent possible. I think having listened to the conversation about what you're going to be doing over the next couple of months. I think our idea and I've had this come up in other towns, happy to work with Franchesco or anyone else on your team if there was in if they wanted input on our, you know, whatever we might be drafting um as we move forward in the process. Certainly something, you know, if the if the formatting is going to change something as innocuous as that or if there were other comments. Um, I think we're that's what we're, you know, we're trying to look at this from the perspective of coming in cooperatively early on in the process to kind of get your input and thoughts as to things that would be important if you were um, you know, interested in this concept and thought it made sense for us to move forward um, and you know, incorporating whatever those those issues or or thoughts might be. Mr. Napoleon.

Thank you, Paul. I I think if we look at this through uh the lens of PA251 and the kind of intense pressure that's going to be put on all of the towns in Connecticut to grow housing, this fits a niche that is worth talking about. But I think the the infrastructure problems or the infrastructure needs could be daunting, but um it's directionally correct with with respect to what PA251 is going to be looking for.

And I think that from your estimation, the gateway might be interested in something like this gateway gateway committee. Yeah. Shoreline. Shoreline. The Shoreline Gateway. Yep. Shoreline Gateway. Yeah. Okay. Especially if that front building was a bakery. What's that? Bakery in that front building. And then there was a lot of joking around about making sure there was a bakery here. It's like a known thing. Make it a little bit bigger. We can make a little Yeah. Um we're getting punchy. Yes, we do. I don't this

Okay. Yeah, you don't want this

cuz it's it the whole thing it's even the layout and everything is exactly what at least in my opinion I was we're we're working away from it is historically what is part of beach areas. Those were beach cottages built on little lots. People only came for, you know, they were rental but by the week and by the month. Um, and slowly the uh area is converting to being more year round, but those are much bigger single single family homes. Um, so this is sort of like going backwards for me looking at it. Even if you're saying it's a market that's not served or whatever, I've never felt that old line has to serve every market. because old lime is has got its own sort of way of of being. So, I'm not really very happy about it to look at it and to see it all laid out in a grid like that. Um that the open space is if it is anywhere is going to be elsewhere on site, not something that um is incorporated into the design.

Well, the green space is really incorporated into the design between the houses. This is a very green development compared to what Can I Can I actually ask? So, it's 9:35 and this is a preliminary discussion. I You bring up a lot of good points, Shane. I I appreciate and I think it's important for you guys to hear that there's a lot of different views. I want to be respectful of the fact that we have a community member from a nonprofit here for from an existing business on Lime Street and I think it would be she just sat through three hours and we listened with all due respect to major developers. She has a menu change request. Can we give her five minutes? These folks to to I don't either. A lot of money on something that that they haven't really heard our opinion on because

No, no. That's why I said I'm just I just was asking is this is there anything else we need to Yeah. If we're going to have them anyway. Let's continue this. Yeah, exactly. Let's We're going to be looking at housing. So, I think Yeah, I think there's enough here that we want to talk about. Yeah. Okay. Are you guys under contract on that land? They have to tell you that. That's okay. It's all right. I mean, if you felt to disclose it, this definitely you had to have an option on it because you already spended a lot of money there. So, thank you very much. I'm sure that family would appreciate it. Come back next month.

Um, we could try. Sure. I know you have a long agenda. I was happy to talk to Eric um if you have any other thoughts, but we can coordinate with him given that we're not under any kind of statutory time frame. We can coordinate with him about that would be great. That'd be great. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for your time. Please. Fine. Should I keep it? I'd prefer if you didn't. Go ahead. Because it's not an application. They say the ball game batting cleanup number nine.

I know. Well, hopefully you're all tired. But um I I did this up 14 years ago before the zoning commission, but I updated it and we had a special usage permit for we're a nonprofit music now foundation dedicated to youth music enrichment. We've morphed sort of into adults coming into the cafe. The cafe is there to support the music. Um and we always had a special permit level two cafe. News of our death is slightly overexaggerated. We're still there. We've been there 14 years. We've just signed another 2-year lease. And what we're looking to do, just so we quell any rumors, we're staying there, and nothing has changed. We're just getting a gal in to help us move and work with the um cafe. Who knows what she's doing? She's got a little cafe over in Killingworth. She's a wonderful She used to be the sue chef at uh the old lime men. She's young, she's vibrant, and she's just going to help us. We're all volunteers. And it just was by the stroke of luck, I ran into her, and she wants to do this. And so, we've worked out this arrangement where she is going to bring everything from Fur Cafe every day. And and I don't want to say cater because she will be toasting things there. Um, a very simple menu, but something that's a coffee shop. somebody. You can have coffee, you can have a smoothie, you can come in and you can get um she's gonna do um breakfast sandwiches, but she's bringing it in. She'll be there early every day. I think she's we've decided Tuesday through Saturday and she'll be there 8 to 3 and then we'll be there. We do our youth kids come over after school. Um we do programs. Um but it's really comfort. It's a community very non um intrusive

thing. It's pretty much street walking. Um people coming in from LISB coming in from all you know just long street. Um we very rarely get traffic during the day historically. We've not been a a go-to place. We've been very quiet. Most people don't even know what we do. Um, but it's really but Dan and I, you know, Dan's the sort of I sort of work on all the grants, excuse me, the grants. Um, and work sort of behind the scenes. Dan sort of the face of it who's I think you're Well, I don't know. I try.

I don't know. I But the problem is after the pandemic, we had to stop things. We were two years we were doing things remote with the music. uh we we just couldn't sustain it. So we just kind of stopped. I went to work for the magazines. Um I now publish Niantic Neighbors, Mystic, and Lime Old Lime Neighbors magazine. So we're really community-based. And really what we want is to provide a small little non-obtrusive gathering spot that people can really come over and communicate and talk, have a cup of coffee. Um I did put together this. I kind of updated it from years ago.

Can I just ask Eric so what how would we be reing this? Why is she here to

Okay, because two reasons. One, these are hours 8 to three that previously were not included in what you approved. And two, this was pitched to the zoning commission originally as music with some food. This piece that they're coming in with is food 8 to3 and maybe music or maybe not music. It it's also been originally as a nonprofit. The woman who's coming in from Essex or is not nonprofit. She runs it as a as a business. So, we're changing, I think, the character of what this is going to be from those 8 to three hours on a street where historic district commission has been trying to clamp down on new commercial uses along the street. It would operate at the same time that buses are going in and out for the schools. Um, there's no real parking there. Um it it changes in my opinion it changed the nature of what the original special permit

but but yes it's resi it is zon R20. Um and therefore again it's a new commercial characteristic in an R20 zone. That's why I said we're here to talk to you about this. Well, can I just make one comment? When we first originally did this, I had to go before the zoning. They knew I showed them the menu. They knew that. They also knew I had to go before the commission, the historical commission, and get our cafe sign approved. Um, we went through Dave Rober had everything approved. Everybody was very on board with it. And I'm not so sure administratively why it's not in the record. Um,

it's very clear what got approved. Whatever you applied for, it's very clear what you got approved, which was for again I was the one doing it before. I was I said that we lost the old lime ice cream shop which did service food, right? So if we're able I'm not saying that it's a bad idea, Michael. I'm just saying it may not meet the regulations or the previous approval and that's why they're here. If you want to go and figure out a way to get it approved, that's your role as a zoning commission. But it didn't seem to meet the residential zone and it didn't seem to meet the prior approval. And that's from your CEO standpoint why I kicked this back to you.

Um well the menu's attached. Um she has put together a very simple menu. There's nothing major about it. Nothing will be cooked there. Um and I think it's not really the menu. It's it's more the the use and the expansion of the gall. We've always been open 8 to three always for 14 years. The problem is I've had to work so I would be open. I'd be closed. I'd be open. I'd close. So nobody ever really I mean we had published. But Eric has your previous approval, right?

Yeah, I do. Well, I mean I didn't physically bring it down with me tonight because it's informal. Well, maybe maybe what we got to do is talk to Eric and see what the terms of the previous approval are. What we can cannot do. There's some things that we can just do and other things we can't just do. That's why we have regular

and again the the pitch originally and again as you heard her she's nonprofit and the music was sort of the core role here. That doesn't sound didn't sound to me like what we were getting in this new pitch. So, if this is okay with you folks, it's okay with you folks and I will let it go. Um, but it it just seemed different enough that I wasn't going to just say I was good with respectfully. I agree. I you know, I'm glad that we're here. I mean, the way I see it is if there's an opportunity to help support the nonprofit because without if if I mean, it is a major support.

That's what that's what I'm getting at. Now, does the Align Art Academy have a little restaurant thing in there, too? They came in for Flow Grid. There's a special special. They came in for How about the academy? The academy. Not flow grid. The academy doesn't have a restaurant. I'm ask they have a cafeteria that goes with their I've been to the cafeteria there. It's clearly a cafeteria. It's not for purpose public. The cafe flow is in the same zone. Cafe Flow is in the same zone, but they got their restaurant approved as a special permit through the restaurant through the museum use as an accessory use for the museum.

We can't do it this week. Can we do it this way here? No. Well, I guess that that's up to you. If you if you think that this is an accessory use to this type of nonprofit, then I will respect that decision. But that's that. But even even with that, Flow Grizz came in for a special permit amendment to allow that as an accessory use. Right. An amendment. They came in with a special actual application that was approved by the zoning commission to amend their permit to put that restaurant in there as an accessory use. Okay.

If you want to do that here, God bless you. Go ahead and do it. But I'm just saying that required an actual special permit application with a public hearing and there's a permit on on file that that did that. We we don't have that here. Um and again the record here, the record I found here was all music based and you get some food when you show up for the music. That didn't sound like what this was. Wait. But if it's if you've always been open 8 to 3 and you've always had coffee and pastries 8 to 3 and sometimes when I've been there 8 to 3 there's been a official music event and sometimes it's been impromptu because you have instruments. Yeah. the kids play the piano. Sometimes there's nothing but you're still so

it it is our mission has been continuing because the point is to bring people get people into this space and then to come back have a reason to come back. Exactly. Again, I am not conceptually opposed to the concept. If you think it's covered by the existing permit, great. I will sign off on it on doing this. No, I know that's I'm just trying to understand that's why I was asking Gail how this changes from what she's doing today. I don't see much of a change besides that's what I'm not understanding. Eric, I I don't I don't I haven't taken your comments as being against this. Just so you know, I think you're No, you got to do your job. That's your job. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I think I wanted to ask

important that this entire board gets on one page because we don't want to ever do anything beyond we've had two people in there to help me and they were doing things that you know smoking on premises and and they were licensed caterers. They own I won't even say where what they own but they did have and they had to move on but we said no it's not what we agreed to. They were cooking in the bath. They were making eggs for God's sakes and I'm like serving them and you know they're no longer there and but we have an agreement with this gown. Um she's under our LLC. No, we're incorporated. Um we provide all the insurance for her. We do everything. Um she has to have a um a license through LLHD. Um, and they have approved us as a level two, meaning and understanding what you're saying, Eric, meaning that we don't cook there. We can toast, we can warm up soups, she's going to do a couple soups, a couple sandwiches, um, coffee, and some great She's going to have a kids menu for after school. So, and and we need this. I mean, I've lived here 27 years, been very involved in most committees and not to do with the town, but the school committees and my goodness, we need this here for the kids, your kids are going through, they'll be coming over, but

you had said, um, but I understand. I I just wanted to pick up on a point Eric had mentioned to us that uh this woman that's going to be doing the catering or the serving, uh, you had said something about she's not profit. She's and she runs her own restaurant elsewhere and that restaurant elsewhere is a for-profit restaurant and it does not have as far as I can tell any music or whatever associated with it. Right. But she's working for night and gales. She would be she's under a girl. Well, that's I haven't seen the lease or business arrangement or any of that. All I saw was the same brochure that's been sort of passed around which says this restaurant is coming to my space.

Right. And so I just I I if the representation is that it's through my nonprofit and this is this is still Nighting Gales and it's always going to be Nighting Gales with someone else helping me serve that's one thing but if it's I'm subletting out to this restaurant for 8 to three and then I'll do you know okay that's what I wasn't clear. Okay. So that's something

absolutely not. And I think our biggest thing is how do we brand it so that she does get maybe additional catering jobs but that it's menu provided by Laurel Kitchen. Her she's Laurel Cafe. We came up with the Laurel Kitchen so it could be under our umbrella because she is providing the food. So I don't want to disregard her. Yeah. The example of that is at the L at the flow grade. It's coastal. It's coastal catering, right? Under the special. No, no, I'm saying the business like so when you're there, Coastal Catering is the business that is

a separate thing. I was just talking about the structures she's referring to. Yeah. if if that we don't have a special per you know and if anything you know if if I find and and Jen and I have come to a wonderful agreement that she is totally on board that she knows and she's a professional she's not going to go beyond these rules because I told her it just is not going to work because Dan and I are very committed to the town we're very involved in the town so what this is really the reluctance on my face has nothing to do with you. It's that somebody complained, I think.

No, it's it's because we have only our records. We have only what we app. And we can't it the fact that you're nice, that you do what you say you're going to do and all that is is somewhat irrelevant to us. It's going to be years and years and years from now. Somebody's going to come in, not even necessarily you, and say, "You let her do it down the road. We want to do it up here. So we have to have an orderly process of approving these things new statements of use

if it requires a special permit so that you can then be like loads has to be Eric is telling you that the way it was pitched to him and and that you what we get is this thing called a statement of use and you get to describe what it is that you want to do and then it goes to Eric. If Eric sees that statement of use and it doesn't fit in the regulations or it needs to be a special permit or all that, that's all he can do. He's he's not No, no, no. I I totally Eric, trust me, I understand your job. Once once we say yes to something and we approve it, then we have to have a record of what it was that we approved.

If there was hours of operation, if there was um it was going to be nonprofit, all all that now becomes part of the approval. anytime you change it to I understand that by another same method. Now whether that means you can yourself do it or you didn't want to go through that much effort or or have to go to the expense and all that and that's the only re thing I have to say to you because I don't think that what you're actually proposing probably would be that difficult at the site but it there is no record whatsoever for No, I would wonder. Yeah. So if you want to do it, you'd have to give him what the the basic material so he can either make it fit the regulations or

Well, that's part of why we're here. I if you feel that this is an appropriate additional accessory use for what is going on there now, I will have her come in with a she worded it that way.

Well, I agree. That's part of what we're trying to do is figure out how I can fit it into my rigs. If we're telling if you're telling me that this is close enough to flow Grizz that you're comfortable with that arrangement of how Flow Grizz did it to fit into that, then that's where I will center. Um, again, there are parking and other sort of things that that we'll need to look at, but I need to sort of figure out how to slot this into my rigs in a residential zone on a street where the HTC doesn't want new commercial uses.

Okay. One thing back 14 years ago, they did tell me that once we leave, it reverts back to something whatever it was like cheese shop, I think. And they did tell me that that's not the way special permits usually. It should be it should be a bakery. They or a bakery or baby shop. There's been a bookshop within everything. But okay, they did tell me that if you So I don't know maybe that's a clause you I will show you the previous documents we have. I'd love to see those

on your site there. Um but again the materials largely focused on the music not on the food and it was pretty much pitched as you might get buy be able to buy some stuff associated with being a musician. You might get some sort of food while you're listening to the music, but the purpose of going there was the music. And again, you came in here tonight and said, "We're all about music." And that's great, but the new thing accessory to it. Yes. The what's coming in this 8 to three hours doesn't sound like it's music. It sounds like it's food. And you might get some music. And that's just how I I'm trying to wrap my train around what we're doing here.

Play music on the stere. So that's that. Again, I I'm happy to work with you to try and figure out how to fit it into what we have. It just didn't sound on first impression like it fit what you already had on the record. Why don't Why don't we try that and see how we how it looks? Okay. I sit with you and we look at it sit. Yeah. Yeah. Why don't you come in? We will sit down and we'll see what we can do to try and make this work. Okay. Yeah. I don't have the materials in front of me, but I but I think what would be helpful is to restate the primary. Michael, Michael, start over again. Please start over again.

I don't have the I don't have the materials in front of me, but I having listened to the conversation, I think it would be helpful to restate the principal use as well as uh articulate the the proposed accessory use. Yeah. Okay. And again, I I will show I will share with her what we have from our files regarding the previously approved permit so we can try and move forward again under the residential zone and all the existing conditions to try and slot in what this is going to look like. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I I want to do what's right. So you understand about pre-existing Oh yeah. Yeah. I do now

because this is what you're really operating under. The reason that it is what it is is because it was a if it was a tea room. Yeah, it was the tea shop. I mean, it is it has been a commercial type use going back forever because obviously Lime Street was your commercial street forever. I was Okay. Well, you know better than I. But it sold snacks.

No, it didn't. Ice cream. They had ice cream. Binky toys and it filled little books, you know. Yeah, I I will share with her what the previous 14-year-old permit looks like and we will see if we can figure out how to fit what she wants to do within the scope of that permit. Okay. And can I just ask a question? If we make this happen, um how does the historical district factor into that?

They come up that's been mentioned. I mean, they will, I'm sure, try and weigh in on this like they weighed in when we wanted to do the arts district further up the street. Um, obviously for anything on the outside, um, they get a fairly firm say about what happens on the outside. Um, they don't have a veto over what goes on inside, but they certainly will come in and tell you exactly what they think about it. And I can pretty much guess what they're going to say. they have

um you know again they have made it clear in the encounters I have had with them that they don't like commercial type uses on live street um and they view it as sort of their role to stamp out remaining commercial uses on live street a sandwich board thank you so much for coming and being so patient with us. Yeah. Thank you. Does anybody need a copy of this? This is No, I think we actually have to give it back. Because this is not an actual application. We're not supposed to be keeping the the I will get in touch with you tomorrow. We'll set up a meeting.

Why don't we do that? And I will what I will do is I will take make a copy of what we have in PDF form, email it to you so that you can see the previous Okay. Okay. Who was the prior Brown? Are you talking about like was it Andy? And Brown was the CEO when you started Marilyn. Marilyn O is my best friend. Really? No man. I got to heard. Michael, Mr. Fiano, can you skip or can you tell us in 30 seconds?

Well, before that's the point. He's Michael Fiano theoretically has the Rivercog representation update here. Um, a lot of it's already been covered. I think we could skip it. There are no ships going to sail between now and the next meeting. All right. Great. Thank you. All right. Thank you. All right. Approval of minutes. March 9th meeting minutes. Motion to approve. Wait, I have a I have a issue. I'm sorry, but this is kind of a key one. So, on item number four regarding Put that under there's a second and then you do your job. Oh, I apologize. I apologize. I'm not to that point yet.

You're trying to be so particular here. So I make a motion to Here's how it goes. Okay. So there's a motion to approve the minutes by Mary Joe. It's seconded by Jane Marsh. Is there any discussion? Yes, sir. Okay. Um, so for number four regarding this 77-17-2 Lime Street, if you go all the way down to the almost the very end, it says, "Mr. Jeffrey Miller, 81 Lime Street commented that the lighting from the current building project has negatively impacted property." Da da da. He was not talking about this project. He was talking about the sign in front of the high school. Oh, yeah. That sign is brutal. It blinds me when I'm driving. No, not only not only he was also talking about

he was saying that the street the street lights on the existing road. Okay, so fair enough. I'm just saying then we need to make some distinction because his primary point was the light that was the reason he brought it up. But I I totally it's been every meeting about this. I I agree say the same thing. I understand that. I just because this is a big project that's going to be coming up. I want to make sure the minutes. Would you like to to say? Yeah.

So, well then, so my recollection was that, you know, he commented that the lighting from the sign in front of the high school was um negatively impacted his property and then added because I don't think he was going to talk about the project. Oh, yes. Unless it went not knowing. Well, anyways, and that he doesn't like that one as well, but there it's that there were supposed to be hedges planted that were never planted. There were supposed to be uh downwardfacing shields on the and they're not and they're not. So, that's all to do with this project. Thank you. I appreciate that clarification. I would just offer then that there needs to be additional language about that was the primary concern. So, how would you like that?

Just like I just said, how would you like that to read so we can make Just like I just said and and the high school. Okay. Fine. Add in there. So, so Amy Amy, Amy Hat, this is for you. Um, so the amendment to the U March 9th Minutes. Go ahead. um Mary Gardner and say what you would like those commented that the lighting from the sign in front of the high schools negatively impacted his property and that he would like to ensure there's no additional impact on his property from this project the 77-1 no that he he said that

so you asked me what I wanted it's that it's the high school sign in addition to I open the floor to add to my edits lighting from the the existing road lighting as well. Okay. How do you use that? Sounds great. All right. Hopefully you got that, Amy. Um, great. So, all in favor with the amen with the as amended. As amended, I I I Okay. I All right. So, the meeting minutes are approved. Now, next I'll take a motion to adjurnn. It is 10 p.m. exactly. No one granted that motion yet. I just have a question. Um,

Eric, did we ever about did anyone else have any concerns or their questions about No, we can adjourn and you can ask unless this is official. Oh, wait. I'll ask after. Is it Is it part of a meeting or No, it's not on the agenda. So, never mind. Okay, I'll make that motion. All right. Second. Motion by Denise Sav to adjurnn, seconded by Mary Joe. All in favor? Yes. Thank you, everybody.