Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

I think we hit 5:00. We'll uh start the meeting of the regular meeting of the planning commission which will begin with the pledge of allegiance. Algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Sometimes I want to put sometimes in there. What's going on?

All right. So, first on the agenda, even though it has indicates new business, but we don't have any. So, is the public hearing. Um, so just to give everybody a quick summary of public hearing process, we'll have the applicants present the application and information that is in as of this time. and the commission members will have an opportunity to ask questions and then after the commission members get their opportunity, anybody in the public is able to ask questions as well. So, we'll hand it off to the applicant.

Good afternoon. I'm Tom Medaf, an engineer surveyor representing the applicant. And the applicant is actually well the applicant is the old lime affordable housing commission which is part of the town of old line. Um also here tonight Mike Kerry attorney for the uh commission uh she riffle who is chairperson of the uh commission. Fred Fton who's part of the commission and Sarah I'm sorry I forget your last name. Ller Ller who is uh executive director I believe for Habitat for Humanity. We also have uh Ross Higgins Higgins as a position member.

Okay.

Um so um if the questions get out of my realm hopefully they can answer them. Um just a little housekeeping um I believe these are all in in your file but just public hearing. Um the plans were submitted to Ledge Light Health District. Um we have a letter from them which is in essence is a uh uh an updated letter of when we had to go to the zoning board of appeals earlier this year, but it states that um the lots are uh capable of supporting a septic system in accordance with public health court requirements. This is all part of your uh the subdivision requirements that we do submit to the um uh the Ledside Health District. Also, I have uh since the last meeting um we appeared before the uh uh inland wetlands commission and um don't have a formal letter and Eric, I don't know if they did, but I have the um um minutes of that meeting and um it's just their uh motion was that they they don't have any jurisdiction on this property. We're not proposing anything in a regulated area up in review area and are actually on any wetlands on the commission. So I'll submit that. Also, we sent um letters to um adjacent property owners within 300 ft of the property. Um and I believe Fred submitted the the the uh uh mailing certificates. And this is just a copy of a letter that or memo that went to the uh adjacent properties. And then lastly, um there's a a a letter here from the Oine Fire Department um stating

that they reviewed the proposal. We met with them and um in particular regarding the driveway which they um uh found adequate and that um they weren't going to require any on onsite uh water water storage requirements. So I'll submit that. Um was here last month and went through it. So I'll briefly go through it again just because it is a public hearing. Um it's a resubdition of land. um frontage on Ripple Hill Road and Flat Rock Hill Road. And this is property that was acquired um by the town uh from uh the McCullik um the Mccullix. And as part of that transaction, when the town uh uh purchased the property, there was an agreement or understanding that there would be uh the town would pursue uh two affordable housing lots on the property. Um the overall property is just shy of 80 acres to 78 acres. Um so the bulk of the land is going to remain in a conservation uh restricted area. Uh in that sense it can't be the dollar. It's going to be for for open space purposes. Um we're proposing two residential single family residential lots which will be for affordable housing. My understanding is that um upon approval um and down the line that the land will be conveyed to the um uh Habitat for Humanity for the affordable housing purposes. Um so that's the overview of it. um kind of the detail of what's going to

happen. Um this is an enlargement. So again, Flat Rock Hill Road is down here. Driveway coming up. Um and I should Let me just go back. There's two lots. Um access to the property will be over uh a right of way. There's currently two dwellings along the right of way. The driveway comes up, ends here, and comes into there's a house here and house here. Those are four of the housing uh uh properties. Also, uh Hope Properties Incorporated currently owns them. Again, my understanding that uh Hope Partnership is in discussions with Habitat for Humanity and uh eventually Habitat for Humanity may be the owners of those two lots. Right now, access is over this right ofway. It's a deed right away to these uh these two lots. Um and Flat Rock Hill Road is here. Driveway coming up. This is existing driveway serving serving the second uh Hope properties lot. What uh the proposal is now is this driveway would be extended uh a little over 200 feet have to be constructed um with a uh as part of this construction there would be a turnaround. That was part of the discussions with the fire department that there'd be uh uh a turnaround for emergency vehicles. Um I I don't know exactly where uh we don't have house plans and that hasn't been formalized. So this is to demonstrate the ability that the the um the lots can support house well and sepic. So we have a a generic layout house here, house

here. And I can't believe that those locations will vary much from what eventually is is built of just, you know, whatever the house size is. Septic systems, these uh these locations um the lots are compliant with the zoning regulations. Uh with the exception of frontage on a town road, um we have frontage on a rightway. We appeared before the zoning board of appeals last year. They granted a waiver, a variance um of the regulations to allow these two lots just to have frontage on this right of way. Uh but in all other aspects, the lots comply with uh with the zoning requirements. Um I know last month there was discussion uh questions about the the driveway. Um, I know, uh, Attorney Kerry has been in discussions with Eric and with Habitat for Humanity, um, about the agreement on this driveway. And I think I think Mike is probably best to discuss that um, and if you have any questions for me, um, or anybody else, just speak out. But I'll let Mike talk about the driveway. Is there some place I can put this down? Sorry. Good evening everyone. My name is Mike Kerry. I'm from Suspro Wurn and Grand Greenberg. Uh our office is town attorney for the town of Oan. Um I am here tonight as uh legal counsel for the applicant for the affordable housing commission. Um not for the planning commission. Um, just make that clear. Um, there was also something else I I think I told Eric

this afternoon I would clarify. I sent him an email earlier this week uh with some thoughts I had about this the road uh the driveway. And uh in there I I mentioned that I thought that the common driveway, the full width, what is it 50 ft wide? um is owned in fee by the town, but I do not think it is um at this point. So, I just wanted to let Eric know that I misspoken when I said that, but I don't think that makes a whole lot of difference really. I wouldn't if you if you all don't mind if you could just let me know what what the concern is about the driveway and how you would suggest it be remedied. Uh, if there is a concern,

I don't think we voiced a concern about the driveway.

Let me explain what I had raised as a concern. Let's see what the commission has to say about it. If you're not concerned, that's fine. The concern is that this is a very long driveway. You've been asked to give a waiver for the fact that there's going to be four lots on one driveway, which is not usually allowed. Um, I just wanted some reassurance in getting the granting the waiver for such a long driveway that this would not be something that at later points they would ask the town to maintain the driveway for them. So, I'm looking for some level of reassurance that in creating this driveway that the town is going to not be required to do this maintenance because again, this is a very long driveway. you are granting a waiver for the length of the driveway to service four lots, which is not usually allowed by your subdivision regulations. So, attorney Carrie and I have been going back and forth regarding what level of reassurance would be required. And that's again, I understand this was not originally raised by the commission, but it did seem like something as your, you know, uh, as your support staff that should be raised as an issue to be discussed. If you're not concerned, great. But I at least wanted something just on the record about that. Is it going to have a homeowners association like a normal subdivision? Well, it does. I'm just coming up with maybe a solution that if there's something like a homeowners association like every other subdivision has to do when it's a private road and then it doesn't belong to the town. So then the town would not be expected to maintain nor plow or do anything.

Well, I'm going to sort of I'm just

absolutely I'm going to kick it back to it. I'm going to carry it this way. The challenge here, Todd, is the front two lots are always out of the picture and don't have an association. So, we are trying to come up with a way that money gets put in so that there is maintenance available for it. And again, my concern is again attorney Carrie is we know that the people who are moving in here are income limited. That's the entire point of it. So if nothing has kicked in over a period of 10 or 15 or however many years and then you present them with a bill for repaving the very long driveway that they're going to have a challenge coming up with that number. So my thought was again not an association potentially whatever it was going to be we needed to figure out a way so that money was being kicked in all along so that there would be funds available. Um my understanding is in here in Habitat that they do collect $30 a month towards the sort of rental fee there and they've indicated a willingness to put that money aside for both of these units. So that would be essentially $60 per month put aside that would again be accumulated to allow for payment of those things. And I thought that was a good suggestion and I'm sort of anxious to hear how this has all played out. that that was how it's all sort of transpired in the months since we last balanced.

My understanding is that road is not paved and can't be. It's not paved. No, it will be it will need to be maintained to some degree. It will be gravel. There will be something will deteriorate over time. Um there will be trees that will fall on it. There will be when you reclow it, it will be damaged to some you're correct. It is not a clean driveway. and just a a driveway that will need to be maintained. And I I apologize for mistaking.

Oh, you didn't and I think Mr. Nap's concerns are are valid and are really worthy of being considered, but I I think for a few reasons. This this situation isn't really comparable to situation where the applicant property owner is a private party. Um, in this case, the applicant owner is the town. So we're in a sense we're trying to protect the town from assault. Um ultimately the town is going to right now the plan is to convey the land the two lots the land

to Habitat for Humanity and Habitat Humanities will uh also in that in that transaction be granted the right of way to use the road and the two lots will be granted the right of way to use the road. And I what I brought with me here, it looks like a lot of stuff, but it's not. It's just 10 copies of each. If I could hand these around. Absolutely.

If you could This is a copy of the deed to the town from Mr. McCulla. Back in I think 2004. And if you look at the second to last paragraph on the first page, well the third third to last and second to last. As as far as I know, the legal description here is of um I think two lots plus the other two lots, the Hulk lots. I think these are the Hulk lots on the town. and they were conveyed subject to together with a rightaway over a strip of land 50 ft wide in 50 ft in width shown as proposed private rightway on the map that this referenced throughout this document um for pedestrian and vehicular access to and from Flat Rock Hill Road and for utility services to the premises hearing conveyed. So in three lines they captured what it took me a page and a half to put into a declaration that I drafted uh in preparation of this. Um and then it says by the acceptance of this deed the grant the grantee which was the town covenants and agrees for itself and its assigns habitat for humanity to be responsible for the construction of a driveway on and over the easement area in accordance with the requirements of and so on including snow and and to be responsible for the maintenance including snow removal of such driveway in the event the grantors and then it goes on to say something that I don't think really applies So then I also have a copy of the deed which was right next right after the deed we just looked at in the land records and this was from the town of old line to old lime affordable housing corp. If I can shoot this one around,

and if you go to page two of that one, the second page, it doesn't page number. Um, it's got essentially the exact language we just I just read through out loud. And by this, the old line affordable housing court agreed to take on the oblig the rights and the obligations that were granted to the town by Mr. McCau. I just read um I also brought in case you're interested um a certificate of merger and name change uh by which documenting that old lime affordable housing corp became hope the hope that now owns the property out there and has been managing it for decades. Um, and that was another point that occurred to me while we were listening earlier. I'm not aware, I mean, I haven't done an investigation. I'm not aware there haven't been any massive problems with the maintenance of the driveway for purposes of the two existing house on the side. So, one would hope that the same situation would would apply here. Um, I do have copies of the an MOA that was done between the affordable housing commission and Habitat for Humanity. I don't know that I need to burden you with that, but it does say at page three or four that habitat if if this conveyance occurs and this doesn't necessarily guarantee that it will but if it does go through the the proposed the at that point contemplated terms were habitat will comply with the existing conservation restriction which by the way I think prohibits the construction of a anywhere through the conservation prop property. I think I can't swear to that because I didn't

pull it out this today and look, but they agreed Habitat will improve and extend the access right away as needed to provide access to the new houses. They will include among the terms of sale or lease of either house a shared maintenance agreement among the property owners, which would be those two property owners, not the whole properties. um utilizing the access way under the provisions of section CJS47-42F which in the legislaturator's wisdom in 2011 they imposed this on everybody who has an easement benefit of or the obligation of that they have to share the expenses proportionally um I don't know if anybody's ever challenged that but it's there so in essence if if this project if this application is approved the two lots are are are built. Um, under that statute, uh, those two lots will have to share with the other two, uh, the hope lots in proportion of some kind, the maintenance and and obligations. Um, so those I thought were the key provisions of the MOA. Um, and that's all I was going to uh one one last thing I guess I was going to drop on you. Oh, I did prepare a declaration which would be there's only two lots, so it didn't seem very sensible to do a homeowners association. Um but the declaration would basically the town would impose on these two lots uh the obligation to maintain the the common driveway in equal proportions. It also talks about the hope lots but um I didn't I'm not convinced that the declaration is really necessary here or would be useful. So that's why I held it

back. I have not submitted it as part of the application yet. Um, so I think my basic point is the town, if the applicant were a third party, a private entity coming in, um, I think the concerns about uh, walking away from maintenance obligations would be uh much more uh, vivid, it seems to me. Um, the town has an obligation right now to maintain that common driveway. um no obligation to maintain it as a road. I'm certain they have no idea, no intention of ever doing it, and I don't think they could if they wanted to. Um how to collect money uh from the owners of the four lots in the event of there being some kind of a problem, I don't know. Um but I I think I think we'll be able to do it on two between the two lots that that that the town is going to develop and Habitat is going to manage hopefully. Um, so we'll be able to do a mechanism with them. So if if you see fit to approve this tonight and perhaps include a condition uh that that some sort of a document be created to the satisfaction of Mr. Knap and and your your planning commission council um that there would be the wherewithal to uh do the necessary maintenance and they wouldn't and the owners wouldn't have to come back to the town. Uh hopefully well I don't know if I know any further about the hope lots. Um I know that's but you know hopefully all that can be worked out among the four properties. Um I don't think it would be proper or useful to have a condition that requires this applicant to go back and try to make some sort of an arrangement with hope because we don't control them. And I don't know why they would say no, but they might. Um, so they could in a way

have a veto over the project, it seems to me. So that was my pitch. I'm sorry when I'm promised we'd be home for the Yukon game. Just one question. Is uh attorney Cassella been consulted um for the commission or

uh he's aware of the issue. He has not seen the documents here um at this point. Again, in talking with Attorney Kerry, I just said, "Look, when you we do come up with a final document, if we want to make it conditional upon his review and approval of it, you guys have done that in the past." Um, as something that, you know, again, final documents of this sort to be reviewed and approved by commission counsel. I think that would be appropriate in this case. And again, it should offer render in Gary as commission.

And and I think if that document were to be um you know, a draft of a deed to convey the p the two blocks to Habitat or some other third party and and whatever third party it is is going to be somebody in the uh in the business of of uh creating affordable housing. Um, but if if that would be a deed conveying the rights and obligations of the town under this deed, the one we just looked at, I think that would be sufficient. Um, I don't know that we need to get into a declaration or a uh or a uh homeowners association. And I can tell I can say that I have in my in my office uh four folders, four or five folders about this wide with all of the transactional documents that went into creating, you know, bringing this property into the into the ownership of the town and the open space uh commission. So it was a voluminous record and I think that the simpler the better in terms of trying to accomplish the goal here. All right. Any uh questions from the commission?

My my understanding of this is that the town has no obligation on the driveway. Well, the town doesn't at this point. The town does because it still owns the two lots that we're the property that we're hoping to make into two lots here. And along with that comes the obligation I read to you about maintaining the driveway. Um, so the town does have an obligation at this point to maintain the driveway, but I would say I would say that uh it's subordinate to the obligation of hope to maintain to keep it clear. Okay. All right. Any other commission members? Well, the other thing is is that there's an open space trail that use that right away to get into the property, right?

That's actually the trails off to the side of the driveway. Okay. Technically. Well, that's how I got confused about the town owning this driveway. I thought this driveway was out I thought the driveway was out of in the property itself because we moved some of the trail off the lot the but it still comes in off of Flat Rock Road. Yeah, the the trail uh right maybe it's adjacent to the drive

signage down here uh open space signage. people park around the culde-sac and the uh it I I don't believe it's within the rightway the trail comes up and currently or it did currently go through the property that's been relocated to go around the around these two lots so but I think they use the driveway to go across whatever the drainage way is right and then they get on the trail it's probably within the rightway technically the trail is off the driveway as someone who uses it a fair amount So, I guess no other commission member questions and we'll uh open it up for the public.

Thank you all. Anyone? So, Bill Jason land owner just the two what's the history of what you mean for the record? Please just say your name.

Sure. Bill Gar body. I'm Jason. Um just what's the history of the two lots the hope lots that's not was that part of that gift deal or is that that was something that's been around for a while that was uh Dave McCullik in the '9s I think the early 90s time goes by um he uh and I don't know what the agreement was with the town but um I think very graciously um gave up those two lots for affordable housing. So in 1994, I think it was there, some around 1994, um is when those two lots came into being and they were always earmarked for affordable housing.

It was Mr. McCullik's idea actually as as I've been as as I've been told that and he wanted to have that as as a condition of conveyance of the open space um that these be set aside for affordable housing. So I guess just to clarify like so because it's two and two. So was the there's was this property conveyed all at once and there's two and then there's two more or was that something a different deal and then now there's okay we give you the rest of it but we want two more technically. Yeah. The these two lots were um the McCullik owned all of this land.

Um they conveyed for lack of a better way of putting it the two lots for affordable housing. They still owned all this land around it. Okay. Step ahead to 2020 plus or minus. Okay.

Uh the McCullik and the town came to and I don't know with the there was money exchange or whatever but then McCullik conveyed the remainder of this land to the town with the understanding that there be two additional affordable housing lots. Now the rest of the land is restricted. So that can't be further developed. And that was part of the discussions with the fire department that um it would be a maximum of four lots served by this driveway and that you know we're not going to be building additional lots off of it.

Okay. And then we only had a question which when you flip it around just give you like where the house might be and where the clearing might be and all that stuff. That's that wasn't in the original whatever. Yeah. And and that's something again I don't want to speak for Habitat, but I um it's affordable housing. Sure. Um I can't believe that they want to, you know, put a long driveway in build over here. I think I think in general terms, this is where the these are where the houses are going to go. Again, they might be oriented a little bit different. Sizes might be a little bit different, but I think from a practicality standpoint, that's where they're going to go. And then septic is to the right of that.

Yeah. septic for this lot is is down the hill. This is kind of the crest of the hill high point. It slopes up this way, slopes up that way. So the two houses are kind of on the crest sloping down to a septic system here and sloping down to a septic system here. Is that marked out now? No, not if you if you go out there though, you'll see pipes in the ground. Yeah, that's where where they are. And this this pathway still exists through there. Okay. So, I mean, that was the trail. That was the original.

Yeah. Yep. Yep. And this was the trail and and it now comes up. I don't know exactly where it veers off and it comes down over here just to get back. But because two lots came off before and another two are going off now, this is tech reubdivision. And that's why this is a public hearing because re subdivisions require public hearings. So if this were just an original division then it just subdivision application public hearing wouldn't be required because it was divided once for four. We have a public hearing tonight. Any other members of the public have questions?

All right. Um there's no reason to keep the public hearing open, right? I think we have at this point no further is to resolve. So, everybody just got their comments in. I think we're good to go. And the only caveat to that would be if the commission wants us to submit some documentation between now and the next meeting. Well, we can do legal documents as a condition of approval if we get that far. What What additional documents are you are you suggesting, Mr. Attorney Car? This time, but I I I think you and Mr. part right you have the ability to defer that until uh post approval

well it's to the before you close the hearing I guess the question for the commission is will you allow as a condition of approval the final legal documents to come in post hearing or do you need to see them before you make your decision if you don't believe you need to see them before you make your decision then you can close the public hearing and make a condition of approval so that's that's the question I guess I would put before the commission before you close the I mean, we frequently have the lawyers work out the legal documents after the fact. So, yeah. Yeah. The essence we know, we don't want to maintain it, right? And let the lawyer approve the language. Okay.

That's the condition of approval, I guess. Again, and as already indicated by attorney Kerry, the existing terms in the document make clear that town is not to maintain. We just need to work out the final details, whatever the final deed looks like. Again, I think attorney Cassella is well capable of taking care of that post hearing. Okay. All right. Then I guess a motion to close the public hearing. So seconded. Yeah. Okay. All those in favor. How you how did you frame the motion? This is just close the public hearing public. That's all this is.

So we're not approving subdivision yet. We're just closing public hearings. No further public comment. Right. So, all's in favor of closing the public hearing. I any opposed? None. Okay. Public hearing is closed. And I suppose we actually need to uh modify our agenda if we wanted to make a decision on this. No, it's theoretically part of what you're you're doing here. If you want to add a a possible if you want to add a decision piece of it, that's fine as well. But I don't think that that's outside the scope of the agenda. If you want to add in deliberations on it, feel free to do so by motion planning commission. It's a regular meeting, so I'm happy to have you do that, too. Okay.

Okay. Yeah, we probably should. Absolutely. So, again, you're because this is a regular meeting, you're free to amend your agenda by going to the commission. So, if you'd like to add an item to your agenda for deliberations, feel free to do so. I make a motion that we amend the agenda to make a decision. We add an item to the agenda. Okay. To to approve the submission. Not to approve, to deliver, to discuss and make a decision. We're just making discuss. We're not making an approval yet. We're just adding it to our agenda. Just amending the uh

agenda. Motion was made. We're going to give him the second to the agenda. All those in favor to add it to our agenda. I any opposed? No. Okay. Okay. All right. Make it our item right now and we can discuss it now. Any uh discussion? Anyone? Motion to approve with the conditions we've the condition we've discussed to have the legal documents get resolved between the attorneys. Okay. I think you should spell that out, right? I will work with Julie to make sure that agrees here. Okay.

All right. Motion made sure we got plenty of previous motions to pull from. Okay. Motion's made. Seconded. All right. Any discussion? Nothing else. Okay. All those in favor? I I Any opposed? None. Okay. Motion has passed. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you. Congrats. All right.

Thank you. Thank you all.

We're good. So any reason this is the previous

um under old business we have planet conservation and development. Is there anything that needs to touch on with that? I don't think so. none. We have our uh updates video updates. Yeah. Um Neck Road.

Neck Road, your perennial update here. Um they called and believe it or not asked my permission to maintain their erosion controls. And I said, "You've always been free to maintain your erosion controls." The fact that you weren't doing so um was problematic. Um, we did get comments from Jacobson on their proposed ro control plan. They agreed to implement Jacobson's comments. Um, so they hope they are doing that. I understand that they were out there today working. They're supposed to be notifying me before they go out and work. So I am curious to what was going on out there today without my being notified. I will go out there tomorrow trying to figure out where we are with that. Um, beyond that, the wetland cease to assist remains in place. They have not filed a bond for erosion control. So they remain in violation on the wetland side. Um so I'm curious to know what they're doing on the subdivision side. Um beyond that, I really don't have much to report. Um they haven't gotten back to me with any further details besides the fact that they're grumpy that wetlands wants to make them file a bond. But there we are. Um any questions, comments about it? Um I will say again not on the agenda have been working with Jacobson's office on the subdivision that's going in again at the corner of Shore Road and Buttonball. Um they are doing a great deal of blasting digging whatever work that is finalized there. I know that Rob did sign off on myar for that. So that they should now be able to um sell lots at some point when they're ready to do that. Um but in talking to the guy from Jacobson who has been going out there and working with them he has found that to be a much more um responsive and successful subdivision as far as the actual people doing subdivision. Yeah. First time we were out there they didn't have a tracking pad. We said put a tracking pad in by

the afternoon there's a tracking pad. um any little requests that they had made for changes or improvements have been handled right away. So they're much more optimistic that this will turn out better than the subdivision we have on Necro. So that's about all I have to report at this point. I guess one last thing I know there's been grain issues along um button ball further up from the earlier subdivision. We did put those basins in along the side there. Um I in talk to edit Dante will say that they do seem to be working. So the road at least where those basins are in has been um protected by those basins going in. So that is a successful resolution at least of that. We probably need one more or the driveway one further driveway that did not go in properly. So we need to get that driveway sorted out. But other than that again those are the three subdivision I can pick off the top of my head. I'll I can report on.

All right. Thank you. All right. Last item, reading and approval of the uh February 12th, 2026 minutes. Somebody else has to do the last meeting. We'll leave it to the traditionalist. He wasn't here. He passed it on. Oh, somebody's else has got to do it. I wasn't here. I I make a motion that we uh I'm not even accept the minutes as posted. All right. Motion's made. Second. Seconded. All those in favor? I.

All right. Motion to adjurnn. So move. Those in favor? Bye. Bye.