Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

Okay, it's 9:00. We'll start the meeting. Um, I think the first order is we have three commissioners and one alternate. So, you'll be a a member here. Thank you.

So, uh I think the first is do we have a a motion to approve the meeting minutes from the last meeting. Motion to approve the meeting minutes from last second.

Any uh any comment, any discussion? Here's John. So, we started John. And is this this is on right? Let's let's see. Are we on? You find that EOC pile will go through. understand. Thank you. Sorry. Yes. Yeah. So, any uh any comments on the uh November 10th meeting minutes? We make a

I'll move that they be adopted. Okay, second. We've already I already seconded. Second. Okay. All in favor? I uh public comment. Do we have anybody who'd like to make a public comment? Please come. Um, I'm Mariel Bash from my call. [clears throat] Please take a seat. Thanks. Um, I tried to get put on the agenda last week and are you Martha? I'm Martha's here.

Hi. I'm okay. She said just come to public comment. Put your application in. So, that's what I'm doing. Um, and these are for the memorial markers. I was here last month and I gave you guys an overview. Um, so what we were hoping to do now instead, um, we went to all the different sites. Um, and we were looking at Sill Lane and then we were looking at Town Hall and we love Sillain. It's very open, but the history never matched. Someone here mentioned history sort of has to match what you're putting up in in line. So it it didn't match anywhere else. And then we were looking at town hall and we're like, the history matches. like this is the reason this place is built is for exactly to honor the men and women and their service. So, we're kind of pitching for this site. Um, and we are going to pitch still lane. Um, I have a I'm on the agenda for the town uh the board of select meeting next Monday. Um, and they're super excited to hear about it. Um, but we're on a bit of a time constraint because these markers, uh, they have to be ordered by the end of this month. And I know that you guys don't operate that quickly typically because you like to take your time and getting all the information out, but we're just asking that if you look at this application, there's pictures in here. Um, we're scaling it down a little bit to fit the front of Memorial Town Hall so it's not so flashy and not so out there. um to just like consider it. Um I'm happy to work with you guys over the course of the next couple months on lettering on on all the things. Um it's a very self-explanatory these markers. Um there's not a lot to them, but if we don't So, we want this to be part of the 250th celebration uh in July. So, we have to get them ordered like as soon as possible. in in terms of process uh because I think this is important.

Yes. Uh I think we have to receive the CFA and it has to be um it has to be publicly advertised. publicly advertise. So my concern is if you're trying to get this ordered by um we we in other words we can't vote on the CFA at this meeting. Okay. Yeah. I wouldn't expect that. Absolutely not. So So it would you could come with this. You could submit the CFA now if you'd like. Yeah. I have it here. Actually, you can't because the property owner has to submit the CFA. Oh, that's right. Okay. And that's actually what my next question was to you because I look at this application and I'm reading it and I'm like I'm kind of um [clears throat]

kind of don't really know what to put down. So, who would technically be the owner of town hall, the town of the board of select? So, I would need to get Martha's signature on this then. So, you probably couldn't do that until after next Monday when you explain it. Maybe you could. Yeah. I know. I might actually just go down there right now and ask her. Um, but if I did that, could I just like submit this into your mailbox like in the in the back offices or do I have to come back formally and and give this application to you? Put it in the mailbox or email it. Okay. And then we would we would discuss it if you'd like to present at the next meeting. Um, and then we would be in a position to vote on it at the next meeting. Okay. Right.

Okay. um at the next meeting. So that would be like January 3rd or something like that. Yeah, the next January 3rd. Okay. Did you guys ever vote on anything earlier than that? Like do you do special meetings for like urgency matters or time of the essence or if the board of selectmen was to say, "Hey, like this we want to get this moving." Is that something that like you guys would consider or is that usually not normal practice? I I think we we can do a special meeting, but it would have to be again, it would have to be publicly announced. And Okay. What's the lead time, Martha, on um for a public hearing, we have to advertise it between five and 14 days before.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. And I'm not trying to like I I'm just trying to like move it along, you know, uh just because of the urgency of it. We're trying to do a great thing here for uh for the town. and the cost goes up significantly also on these markers like thousands of dollars more. So that's kind of why we're trying to like move this quickly. Um

okay so I just wanted to point out to you guys too that um very quickly [clears throat] public comment here um I tried to basically create the picture of these markers in front of the tree right out here. Um, so you can see it up there, but you just have to sort of envision them back a little bit more. Um, the other thing I was in this application you'll read is that like I I really encourage you to go to the one at Old Sabbrook and just look at it and touch it and feel it and just like look at how amazing it is before you decide on what you think. Are you proposing two of them?

Yes, proposing two of them. the blue star and the gold star for both um people have passed and then living veterans. So, um this is if you want to take a look. And where was one in Old Sbrook? So, the one in Old Sabbrook, it's in here. It's on Main Street. Go down Main Street. You get to the Kate. It's across the street from the Kate in front of the pickle ball courts. Um and like the parking area right there. It's It's right there. It's It's When I first saw it, I was like, "Wow, this is actually really neat." So, um, so all right, I'm gonna go down the hall. Yeah, I think that's the process. The town will submit to submit the CFA. Okay. To the historic commission and then,

uh, they should if if there's a request for expediting or a special meeting, they should submit that. Will we grant that? We'll have to discuss, I guess. Okay. But, um, if if not, then it would be January 3rd. Okay. Be the next meeting to review. You said you at the beginning you also were pushing the north the north town green. Yeah. So we don't have say over the north town, right? So you could you could uh that that would be up to the town. Oh yeah. Alone alone.

Yeah. I was just letting you guys know that because in the last meeting we had talked about the different sites and um and so we left here and we went and we looked and we liked Sane. It was great. It was open but the history like you look at the history of that area and I'm like it just doesn't fit. And then also the witness stones are there down too. Just like a hodgepodge of stuff and we just drove by town hall and I'm like it just really matches here. So So yeah, what we're pushing for. [laughter] All right. Thank you for your time. I have a suggestion. Yes. Um since the if you want you you definitely want to place two signs. Yeah.

Um so yeah, if the S lane um site does not match the history, that's probably not an appropriate site. Even I mean I know this is a suggestion. I know we don't have jurisdiction, but I'd like to suggest that um that the Selain site is very um effective now that it's open and it has the garden sign, it has it is, you know, I think another sign there would be um not ideal if you can find a place where the history matches. I mean, maybe one is enough because there, you know, there's not that much distance between Sain and the town hall. So, one may be enough, but if you really need a second sign in the town of Old Lime, perhaps this Elang Green is not the best the best choice just because of the the history and the site itself.

Yeah. Um I agree too. And and I I love the idea of town hall, but I I just it was actually about idea. She's like, "What about town hall?" But I know whoever was here last time had said, "Well, there's a lot going on in town town hall." I agree. So I was like, well, what if we just made it very simplistic? Instead of having all the flowers and things around it, it's just each post, each marker, and and they're set back, so they're not like in your face. Uh, so yeah, it's just sort of what Okay, I will not take up any more time. Thank you very much. All right, bye. And you you I see [clears throat] you have a check. I do.

But you're are you a nonprofit organization? Oh, the Duck River Garden Club is and the town the town is. So, you would not need a check. Oh, okay. Well, that the town doesn't pay itself. Well, I'm happy to pay this if we can move it along a little bit. [laughter] All right. Thank you very much. Bye. Co-chair's report. Uh, John, would you like to Well, I I have a couple

matters. Uh we sent off the letter to Amtrak, the uh letter concerning their proposed safety enhancements, and they were asking for comments about historic properties in the in or near the right of way. And we responded by uh pointing them to some sources that listed historic properties. That was number one. Number two, uh we urged them to solicit information also from the planning commission. Our main focus obviously is just on the historic district, but the planning commission would would uh needs to be aware of proposed changes. These changes might involve 9- foot steel fences going along the the trackway and uh it would be uh a change, shall we say, particularly if if they impeded on historic properties. And finally, we just noted the change in in code co-chairs. Um the the second item is as you probably have heard but just for the record to note that the the town according to news accounts and uh Martha Shoemaker has uh received an $800,000 grant for improvement of sidewalks along Halls Road. Um part of those sidewalks would be in the historic district. So we have to give our approval. the part of the sidewalks that are outside of the district fall within our statutory authority to give recommendations because sidewalks outside the district that link to the district are uh not specifically noted in in in our

governing statute. Uh so I just would say we look forward to working with the the board of selectmen and the other town authorities in considering uh proposed changes. Is there a time frame when it's it's it's down the road about here. It's not immediate, but we we expect we will be consulted as as plans begin to take shape.

Great. And then the only other announcement that I have is Ed Penn uh is a new uh member of the historic district commission. He was voted by the board of selectmen on the 17th. Yes, Ed's not here today, but uh he's our our new member. So, um [clears throat] that Let's see. 31 Lime Street. Yes. Please come up. Hi. Hi. Very nice to see you all again. Really deep. Hi. I I really deeply appreciated my first conversation with you because we really didn't know what we bought into. [laughter] and we're sort of up to speed now.

Let's go. Um, so anyway, uh, what I'm here today for is this is the very very beginning. Um, we have a carriage house. I have a picture of it from the street. That's what you see from the street. Exactly that size, that proportion. [clears throat] M

so um what we would like to do is to renovate this carriage house and create an uh a studio, an artist studio. Right now I have my studio in one of the bedrooms and my wife cannot wait to get me out of the house. [laughter] So um I really don't know what's what. I'm starting from absolute scratch so that's why I'm here. Um, we uh found out that uh in 2015 this this car carriage house used to be electrified. In 2015 there was a remodeling to the back of the house where they severed the um uh the uh line. Uh so it is now on the verge of uh being electrified once again. So I have that. I'm not planning on doing any plumbing whatsoever. Uh, but it does need to be um insulated. It needs to be uh uh heated and cooled. Uh the big bugaboo uh to turn it into an artist studio is light. Right now there's it's there there basically is no light. So uh what my proposal is I have questions and then I have proposals. Um, we uh contacted a group called Craft and Design that does uh planning and building. Uh, thank you for the accompaniment. It's very nice.

I may fall asleep, but um [laughter] very soothing.

Um, so so light is the issue. Uh so what uh um and and I need to meet you first before I start having them draw up plans and all that. Uh so they can guide them. You can guide me then I can guide them. Um there's there's two different options. One is to keep keep this exactly um uh come on. I knew this was going to happen. It always does, right? Um there you go. Okay. So this is what it looks like now. [laughter] Um and uh basically keep that shape, not change that whatsoever. And there are three options that I'm thinking about. One is to create a new front that would look very crude. apologies, but you know, um so so that it would be doors that go up as high as possible with a possible round window, um replacing that and then steps down to the lawn. So that's one idea. Um the second idea is uh just some kind of major window here somehow someway uh that looks great for light to come in. Um, then the third option, I didn't do a drawing of it, but it would be right now this there's there's a loft. It's an actual hay loft that has not been changed and it has the dead mice to prove it. Um, uh, to possibly, and this is much more expensive, and I'd prefer not to do it, is to build up a bit. I don't know how far up, and I I know I have to would deal have to deal with

zoning and the building uh department with all that. that would be able to save um the entire uh first floor and then have a second floor. Um just wondering if that's possible. I most likely won't do that. Um and then the next thing is uh are there is there any jurisdiction where I would have to get permission to do skylights in in the uh roof? And then the last thing is um this wall. I think I did I got a picture of it. Um oh no, there's more than the last thing. Okay, this is the side of the carriage house that it butts right up against the next property. I mean, you can barely even walk there. But this is the north wall. And the north wall is actually the the the preferred uh place to put windows. And you don't see that from the street at all. Um, so I would uh probably put as many as maybe three rows of large windows right up against there. Um, that's another uh way to get light inside.

An an alternative or an addition to changing the front. Uh, it could be one or both. It could be one or both because the more light you get in there during the day, like this is fantastic what you have here. Um, the more light you have during the day, the better it is because the shadows, you dissipate the shadows, which is what you want, right? Um, so that's that. And then the other thing which you would not see from the street, but I'd have to work with the um uh building department and zoning. We have this space here. So, is that also the north side? Uh no, this is the back of

Oh, the back. Yeah. Okay. So, this is the back of the um east side. Yes, this is the east side. Correct.

No, no, south. Yeah, east side. Yes. East side. This way. Southside this way. So, in [clears throat] order to have a place um to put all of the equipment and uh you know, lawn equipment and everything else, I would want to build not to the top, but but along this roof edge here, extend it out as far as legally um possible and create a shed. And the what the um craft and design people said, which I thought was a really great idea, was to take these doors and use them for the shed and then use uh uh replace them with, you know, something that would match to answer your questions

to match the same here and possibly the same on the other side. Um, I think that's as far as I I've gotten with my um thoughts on it. Um, one of the first fundamental questions is, is the building within 300 ft uh from the road? Oh, from the road. From the road. Yeah. Okay. And and and that's that's and we can check as well to confirm this that it's within our jurisdiction. Oh, got it. Okay. Right. So if it's outside of 300 feet then it would not be we who [laughter] all you have to worry about is building. [laughter] Right. Right. That's right.

Now I think it probably is but we we can we can take a look at that and check that. And if and I'll note that if any part of the building so if it's a foot or it it's it's not the full it doesn't have to be fully within 300 but if any part of the building is within 300 ft then it would fall under requiring a CFA application. So that's fundamental. And then what does CFA mean? Certificate of appropriateness. Thank you very much. Yeah. Okay. Well that's number one. Okay. So I will do that immediately. Right. Um any other comment? But

that said, even if um it falls outside of the jurisdiction, in other words, more than 300 ft back, because it's visible from Lime Street, right? We would greatly appreciate your being sensitive to what the requirements would be if it were within, you know, the 300 ft because it's such an important building in the historic district and because any change to the street facing side will affect the historic district. So completely and I would love to to match the house with that because right now actually it doesn't look like it just like two windows but I would love to match what the house has to the carriage house as part of the um plan. Do you happen to know the date of the carriage house? No.

Is it original to the property? I don't think it is but um I would I would like to know that myself. We went to historical district historical society and they didn't have much information on it. Right. So, uh I'm trying to figure out how to Yes. find that out. Do Do you know the framing on the inside? Is it post and beam or is it post and beam? So, it's Yeah, it's pretty old. Pretty old. Yeah. Yeah. And the walls are they have to There's a um That ladder is so old I can't believe it still works. But it's the type of ladder that would go up to the hoft and then come down.

And uh there's original pulleys in there. And there's original um my wife Leslie loves it, but the the pegs are about this wide and they those original pegs are there. [clears throat] And then the loft uh uh flooring, which is so thin, it's it's like the heart blanks. It's like the king's planks. They're so wide. And most likely that would come down and that would become the floor. uh of the and because I would have to take take some of the it out to create a loft to make more space inside if I'm going to keep it one right

if I don't build up right so um in terms of visibility from from a street or or public way the rear clearly is not with respect to the north side that it it really is a question of whether any part of it is is visible. If you're walking north along Lime Street, is there some sight line that would allow visibility? Because then we would we would have jurisdiction and the same would go for for skylights.

Um I just had a thought about your first sketch. um on on our property several years ago, we converted an old horse barn to an accessory apartment. Now, this is way outside the historic district, but uh instead of a a door that goes basically up two stories, we divided it. So there was a door and then a very wide vertical [clears throat] uh window above it. And so

I just in terms of scale, you might want to pursue with your contractors whether they really think a door that that tall would would fit with the character of the the building.

Got it. Got it. And then also that but this would be if if if there's well you can see it from the street. So if there's if that's okay you know that's uh would be permissible. That's a great idea. Well, we we haven't we haven't. Again, this property was out this building was outside the historical district and it was on the rear, so you you can't see it, but but to my to my eye, it looks it looks uh more suitable. The door looks more suitable to the scale of the building. Yeah. Anything to bring light in [laughter] would be great.

Yeah. I'll note on the Lime Art Association, there are skylights on that building for that very reason. And then the the commission did approve a replacement. There was um this was what a couple years ago. Yeah. Yeah. We were the replacement of the skylight. So, we've been through the process with the the skylight uh on the roof uh as as something that's been approved in the district recently. Yeah. Great. Great. Yeah. Whatever. as much light as I can get in there would be great. That's it. Short of it it becoming a glass house. Oh, I don't want that. [laughter]

And Victor, just relevant to the date. I believe the Lime Historical Society has a list and account list that Daniel Chadwick drew up with his builder gladding. And so that may give some clues to the date. I I don't remember. The Lime Historical Society is different. is different from the old lime historical. Lime historical. I know there too, but the older documents are mostly at the lime historical which preceded the old lime housed in the Florence Grisfield Museum. Oh, great. Okay. I think it might be on the blogs that that I wrote about Captain Chadwick's death. You did that? Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, it might that list may be on that. I can't quite remember. It was a while ago, but worth checking there first.

It will. Thank you very Thank you for that. So, hey, thank you. Thank you so much. Good seeing everyone. And you heard the discussion about submitting a CFA ahead of time. Oh, yes. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Here we go. Thank you. Thank you very much. Um, next on the agenda, 96 Lime Street.

Good morning. Morning. Hello. Hi, Pete. Hi there. You had a nice Thanksgiving. Yes. Cheers.

So, we um based on our last meeting, we um uh sub substantially trimmed the the requests that we had to to parts of the property that were really sort of in the jurisdiction of the historic commission. Um and so that's what that's what we have today. Um some of the questions that came up in that meeting like um the surface um and the color we've tried to address here um we'd want you know if this were to go um through and be approved we would want um the uh gripstone to sort of match the gray pathways that we've installed throughout the property. Um u and you know but but again you know wanting to sort of limit the um limit the scope of the ask for for this group based on um all the plans that we have and that was sort of in the jurisdiction here. I see some of you reading the the kind of the short narrative, but um there's only about 150 square feet of alteration within the historic district commission boundary um which is the addition of an entry road which would be a chips seal surfaced driveway. Um

and that boundary kind of clips part of the larger development of the site that's planned that's under review with the zoning commission. Right. Um, as we said in the uh as Russ said in the previous uh agenda item, we we we do since this driveway is a structure, if any part of it within the district that there's jurisdiction of the whole thing, right? I I know you wouldn't be changing chip seal to asphalt, but just

quite the opposite, but it's Yeah. So, you're not proposing any change to the at least at this time to the initial entry um drive? Well, I you know, as far as the the larger zoning package, the idea is is that will become a farm road. Um No, but I mean to the road, this section here. No. Yeah. the entrance the the entry onto the property from Lime Street remains in the exact same location and the first you know probably I'm just trying to estimate the distance but all the way you know past the Florence Griswald house remains intact and then there's a new spur um that goes past the LMAT association into the main parking area that we're adding

right what about the I know I asked before but what about the time frame application is only valid for one year. So if you submit it today, would you intend to uh begin work on this road before the expiration of the Well, we can we can vary the date. Okay. Sorry to interrupt. [laughter]

I think that that's a good question, Caroline. I I um the question of uh this road being sort of in the first or second phase of this process um is still somewhat open. Um I think um it's gotten remarkably less expensive depending on the degree of finish that we intended to do to make it a workable road for contributing equipment. But I think our still still our goal is to use the hall road access for for construction equipment if that's allowed by the state. Um in which case this um isn't nearly as critical uh in the early phase. So, but as I recall, the other part of it was is that um similar to some of this as well that when we get close to the expiration date um if it's not completed, we would reapply or renew. Yeah,

that's right. Thank you. Sure. Any other and com first off any any other comments that you would like to make? No. Otherwise, the plan is identical to what we've presented in the past. We've just clarified what's within your um direct jurisdiction, and I understand the any road that kind of crosses that boundary is still within your jurisdiction. But um and at this point, you're not proposing any change to the walkway that's to the north of the arm road. You've talked about that last time.

Yes, that that's right. That would be a some possible future. Yeah. You know, um the when you say the walkway, John, are you talking about the asphalt that goes Yeah. This I'd like to change that tomorrow. [clears throat]

I I do think that that'll be um part of the second phase when we do things like um um protect that boundary uh the trees that are there that are um at risk from the traffic that goes by there already. But uh that's not currently part of the plan. So the existing driveway I realize stays in the same location but um will it be resurfaced after construction? I mean the existing one from street forward that is that bit of work I believe would definitely be in phase two.

Yeah. I mean, we're going to ask for a cost from the contractor to do that, but it's not not um certain that we would resurface the existing driveway. It's chip seal right now. No, no,

it's asphalt. Now, if it were ever to be altered um and may be a kind of a tropical road, it would be chip seal. Um but in the the long range plan for the project is to take out the existing driveway entirely. um and convert a section of it that runs from the Florence Griswald House to the Creable Museum building where the existing museum entry is into a farm lane. Meaning we would take out the asphalts entirely uh as it exists now, regrade that and just use it as a pedestrian pathway and an emergency access. But I mean from Lime Street going

that section I we in the drawings call for the the contract to provide a price to resurface that with chip seal. Right. It's not part of the base project, but if it were ever to be resurfaced, it would be chip seal. Well, that would be a different CFA. Correct. Yeah. Right. That would be a future CFA. That'd be a future CFA. Yeah. Right. But today the only CA you're asking for is this triangle that very narrow triangle but but but by extension the surface of the entire entry drive into the parking. If you think about it if we approve if we approve the triangle then we can approve the rest of this project has legs. [laughter] Can I make a motion?

Yeah. I move that we accept the proposal as submitted. First, we need to just ask if any comments from anyone else in the hall. In the hall. Yeah. Any public comments? Well, hearing none. Yes. So, I move that we accept the proposal as submitted. Do we have a second? I'll second. We have a second. Discussion. [clears throat] And no discussion. Uh, can we take a vote? All in favor? I. All opposed. Got it. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. And another thing, you had last meeting asked for a letter

that you would submit to zoning, which I'm happy to do or we're happy to do. Um, but I had understood that you would be sending a copy of this map with some shading that showed the the historic the zoning uh boundaries over the sort of the historic district.

It is it is on there although maybe it was it's a it's a color drawing so it's a little bit harder to interpret in black and white but there is a thick dash line that shows the historic district commission boundary. It's it's it's this. It's that and then there's a a kind of a darker shade um which I can point to uh here which is this the area I didn't shade the whole boundary but I just shade shaded the area that we're altering that's within the boundary. Well if if you could

we could we could separate is this a separate document? Is this do you have this this attached with it was it was all it was all one piece. But can you can you separate this because when I do the the letter when we do the letter I'd like to attach this document. I will send it as a standalone plan and then we can get that very much. Thank you very much. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. Oh, and what what is your we we do and again Caroline, I'm sorry for interrupting, but we do have flexibility. We usually do the CFA for a year, but if you are saying this would be done in two years, we could make it for two years. Um, you know, it's an interesting question. I think if it's as if it's as easy to to ask for renewal based on where we are a year from now, we can do that. I think let's do that. I mean then if plans change person those put on the calendar. Perfect. Thank you.

Um website uh discussions Carolyn and Julie.

Yes. Um I apologize for not getting that done in time for everybody to see it because it's takes amalgamation of what my revisions were and Julie's revisions and John's revisions. But I did send to John and Julie a mostly complete inclusion of the of the website changes. They're very few. There are not very many and they're not really significant or substantial for for everyone to consider. Um that can be done so that we could approve the the website revisions. I hope at the January meeting. And in the meantime, I'm also working on um a possible list of FAQs for the because the intern as John has told us would be working um with us to develop a a revised set or a new set or an amended set of frequently asked questions. So I did start and we should make suggestions for that. So on the existing just for your [snorts] uh just for your review on the existing uh HDC website there are only three um when do the meetings take place are they open to the public and something else very routine about procedural so I would think that we might want to even though you know I think our text is very comprehensive and for the most part I think it's pretty clear and no longer redundant nevertheless in the FAQs I think we might want will include um a few other uh qu simplified questions um for example how do I s how do I submit materials just in case because there's so much pros right

you know in the longer sections that maybe a little bit streamlined with very short questions very short answers would be helpful um and I thought perhaps I don't know if you think it's a good idea there could be a question why does the HDC um regulate or whatever verb we want signage because some people may wonder why that's relevant to the HTC. It's explained in the signage guidelines quite extensively, but perhaps shorter, you know, shorter answers and then so any of you have suggestions to send them to me and I I would send these to the intern and then she could generate the answers maybe or I mean actually we it's not hard to do but but it's one less task for us if she wants to and it would get her involved. So

a shorthand for the C of C of A because that's what most people interact with. Yes. Shorthand for the CFA. Yeah. Where to get and I also have what does like for like what does like for like mean? So just putting it just like Victor today. That was perfect example of he's been here a few times for other things but pretty much as a new homeowner where do I start? What are the questions? He said, "What is the CFA?" Yes. You know, you throw the term around but have the link to the like for like form and the link to the CFA that

Yes. Yes. And then maybe something else just thinking about Victor if if I'm planning a a a renovation, what is my first step? And then say the HDC appreciates, you know, early opportunity to discuss provide guidelines or suggestions or something some find some word for that. So those are the kinds of FAQs that I was thinking of. So we now have three, maybe have a total of 10. We don't want them to be overwhelming, but not more than 10. So that's my suggestion. And then if we pull it all together and then the the the commission can I hope vote in at the January meeting so we can finish this. Great work.

Um does that sound okay? This does remind me it was I believe after last meeting, wasn't it, that Arth and I met with with Elena. Yes. The intern. And we have quite a list of possible projects for her. My fingers are crossed that her she'll rise to the occasion before she finish.

Anyway, we can do the FAQs if she doesn't get to it. But and then my only other question is this is just me but I don't know how much if we a there's a lot of information now about our comm there's a lot of communication between the HDC and the and the railroad authority and Amtrak. Do we want all of that? Do we need all of that? Do we want all of that on their website? Because it then becomes a matter of record. I can't imagine that too many people will want to read through all of that correspondence. It's it's quite tedious actually for the lay reader. So my question to you is does all that really belong on the website. But if the only reason to have it in my view is that it becomes part of the record so going forward maybe we would refer to it. I don't know.

I I'm not sure that u the most recent letter to Amtrak needs to be there. It doesn't directly concern the historic district. I do kind of like the idea of posting our January or keeping posted our January um 24 letter to FRA and Amtrak and their detailed reply. I think the subsequent reply, the May one which is shorter would be is just a boilerplate that they sent to to every

That's what I'm thinking. Yeah, a lot of it is boilerplate. It really does have in it uh I mean to ju just have two thoughts. I it it does have a pretty comprehensive review of of um the structures in the in the district and references about them and notes which properties are on the national historic register etc.

My question is do we need that on our website? Not that it's not valuable but is it does it belong on the website? But but the other reason is um if the funding goes through at the end of the year and and FRA and MTRA have funding to proceed, this becomes again a huge town issue and this is a place where folks could come to for information. Sure. Okay. I think I think if there's I think if there's a if we've submitted a request and we get a significant answer, not not a boilerplate general, then I think it's important to post that, right?

Because that's that's information that the town as a whole should be aware of and it relates directly potentially to the to the district. Right. That's true. Right. Well, then I'm going to leave that section to John to you know to to callull as it were so that you include only the most relevant documents on the website. I think Martha now you could you could ask uh whoever put stuff up or down on the website just to take off the the second reply we got from Amtrak doesn't really say anything.

Great. Right. Um, realtor sign discussions. John,

yes. Uh, this was on the it's the same material that was on the agenda for last meeting, but um we didn't have time to get to it. If you flip to part nine and part 13, the bold face language is what's new. We we've been over uh the text of suggested revisions for realtor and building contractor signs several times. I I hope you've had a chance to look at this and I hope we can adopt it. Um this the second um attachment is just a a form or acknowledgment that each real estate company would sign that would um contain some basic guidelines about what they were permitted to do. It essentially just tracks what is in section section 13 of the guidelines. So I have a couple of comments. I thought there [clears throat] I thought it reads I think it reads very well. um until the last two se the last two if you turn to the page six in my view the the the the provisions of these design review guidelines is a little bit difficult to parse and the and the [snorts] final sentence any property owner that wants to install may instead of relying on an RC sign installed in compliance with this provision 13 apply for a COPA and may not install. I thought it was confusing. Uh so I would recommend that perhaps those two could be clarified and simplified.

Um but otherwise I thought it it I I think it reads well. Um do we first of all do we even need these? I'm not sure that they're they they seem such they seem fine points. Um I'm thinking of the circumstance for that. Are you thinking for a small independent real estate agency that is not one of the big ones in town that the the homeowner would apply for the COVID instead of the agency?

There there were two there were two reasons. One is um yeah I mean uh property owner who's trying to sell the property himself or herself sell. Okay. Um and secondly, it it is a way to recognize that um the primary person responsible for signs on property is the property owner. Though if for some reason they said, "I just hate these big clunky realtor signs. I want to do something different." They acknowledges that they have okay

the option. I find that still that in terms of the the reason I like the preceding um guidelines about signs is that they're very clear. No RC sign may be illuminated and then the next one becomes I think rather convoluted and and I'm not sure what it would actually you mean the next sentence sentence I mean the next sentence position and then the final sentence um concise I would think if they're not absolutely critical we would leave them off um well how about if you just said it so you can think about that I just wanted to flag it.

Well, I' I'd love to get the language. I'd like to get this done so that I can I can we can send something out to realtors. I mean, again, nobody's beating down the door, but um how about just in in lie of uh uh in lie of uh [clears throat] approval under section 13. the pro a property owner may apply for a CFA

to cover what if I use a oneoff realtor from Harford County that isn't here and doesn't isn't under this blanket or if I have a stonemason in my yard. I think it you need to be clear if that there's responsibility on the homeowner. If you're going to use an agent from Harvard County that doesn't not familiar with this, you have to do the application. If you're going to have a stonemason in your yard, you're going to do the application. Is that

that's clear, isn't it, Deb? I think I do. And I think that's I think that's already been made clear um in the in the preceding. That's why I'm not sure we need this. Where where is it clear in if it's if it's really just a fine point. [clears throat]

Maybe we can admit it. So, it's a I think there are two questions in front of us. Do we need it? That's the first question. And if we do need it, how should we clarify the wording? Um, how about if you say um in the absence of a form acknowledging compliance with these guidelines, a property owner may submit a CFA application. And that I mean it doesn't specify the scenarios but it's really cumbersome if you start saying we're going out of town want to sell your own home you know

you have to submit a bank. Yes. So we should I think it should then start with a property owner blank blank must blank blank and so that would clarify. Uh, how about a property owner must submit a CFA application in the absence of and track the language from the the lead in the absence of a a form of uh acknowledging compliance with the guidelines in this this section.

Okay. Well, isn't isn't it by default that that if you're going to put up a sign in your yard and you're owner, you have to have a C of A and that this is this section is the kind of the exception to that. I mean, it's almost like are we restating what's in the front of the right document, right? It it's technically I guess it is the default. I'm just trying to

again say if picture somebody who's not at all familiar with these procedures and say oh I want to you know and they're want to sell their home and they're looking at this go through this then just maybe that's it maybe a under the RC section a homeowner may um submit a CFA for u a realtor or contractor sign well contractor must if there's no form, there's no realtor form,

right? Because I feel like most of these guidelines are for the um the nonprofits regarding their signage. What's specifically for the house across the street? I I just want to make sure that it's because there's more of a probability of somebody selling their house rather than somebody erecting a woodworking shop sign or something by the owner. Just to make that clear. I'm I'm not a property a homeowner selling without a realtor or or something like that, right? Just must submit a CFA, right? Someone

to before erecting a sign advertising the property or something. I know. Is that Is that where you're getting? Fine. I can try to I can't, you know, drafting in committee is hard. I can try. I did look at the sentence. Um Okay. Well, anyway, that one we can we don't have to debate it too long, but we can Oh, I guess we can come back in January. Yeah. So, submit something. We'll review it and then submit the present the whole package at the January meeting.

One one question. One question I had, John, was um the section on section 13, the second to last sentence where it says no RC sign may include photographs or artwork. Is is a company logo. Is that considered artwork or or not? That's a good point. Except for the company logo. Maybe maybe that's stated because you know some some logos are artistic. Maybe just add artwork. Um yeah, just except for a company logo. Except for a company logo, right?

Good idea. Yeah. Other than that, I'm good to go with it. Is there is there a scenario we could pass it today with the the changes that Yes. to get it off John's plate? Yes. That would be fine with the provision. John, I have one question. Maybe just my reading of the legal language, but on the acknowledgement of conditions about midway through the first paragraph, the company may install temporary signs identifying the company and advertising the rental. I thought that was I thought there was only one sign.

So, should it be the company may in I'm on the last page now. Acknowledgement of conditions midway through the paragraph. The company may install temporary signs identifying the company and advertising the rentals without advanced approval of a CFA. But that's the second part is clear. But I thought we had said only one sign. So, I wondered if it should read for company may install a temporary sign identifying because the company can't erect more than one sign. Isn't that right? Well, they can in with different properties. Different properties. You're right. My intention was to

Oh, [clears throat] but you could to read the company install um one one temporary sign per property. Okay, good. That's clear. Thank you. Um, so if if there's a a need to, you know, for speed, I'd be very happy to make a motion.

There's no need for I just we went through this with the full signage guidelines and we and the thought has crossed my mind with respect to demolition guidelines. It just takes a while, but we're getting better at it. We're getting quicker, I think. Okay. So, what's your preference? I I guess my slight preference is let me make changes. Everybody should see this. Okay, great. Go ahead.

Sorry. um demolition guidelines uh in discussion and John took a stab at a uh at at kind of outlining the uh the concern, the issues, the the thoughts. So maybe John, why don't you uh give us a Yeah.

preface on what you're thinking. Um, it really falls into two parts. The first part, part B is potential guidelines for moving or demolition of buildings. I I think the goal would be to have more guidance as we did with the signage guidelines for property owners. Um this is probably too too uh detailed for the the the handbook but this process I think will sharpen our focus for revising the handbook which comes up not too many years from now Martha. Yes. She says

the last one was 2018 I think. So you tend to do it every 10 years. So, you know, if we could get lighting and demolition and the these things done.

Th this draft is largely cribed from what I thought was the best of the several um samples from other towns, some omissions, some additions. Here's the big question, though. This this is largely two and a half um yeah three three and a half pages and it's it's still rather general. If if we want to include information about specific guidelines for renovations as an alternative, it gets really detailed. And so my thought was to have general guidelines and then

point to some sources. Well, two options. either just point to some sources that have a bunch of pointers about how you would renovate things or incorporate by reference some of the resources that were in the PowerPoint that Eden and Russ circulated, right? I'll say the the Shipo presentation. Yeah. I mean, they're they're really quite quite thorough, right? Um

good. I think that makes sense. I mean, I'm not sure which which way to to to to go. Uh I hate to incorporate them by reference unless we're we all go through them thoroughly and are really crystal clear that that's what we want opposed to it just being general general guidelines. So, that's the first part. We want some guidelines. If so, here's a really rough uh [clears throat] point. um circulated to to to Russ and his his reaction had to do with the shall we say integrity as a whole of the district. We have a district that's not a role of roast uh just of let's say stately homes. It's it's it reflects its historical mixed mixed usage

and it it may be that some of the language I think this draft needs to be massaged to take account of of

the concern with maintaining the district. Well, I think I think I went back and to me it's that this is a in 1971 this district was submitted and approved as a national historic district and there's a document that is that that's online from the National Historic Places and it identifies all the structures that contribute to the character that creates the National Historic District. So any removal of one of those structures is not only a detriment to that the historic aspect of that particular structure but to the district as a whole. And and and to me that's the bigger point is that all of the structures there's there was 71 at the time and I think there's 72 now because there's a new house in the district but there are 71 structures um that were identified that a I I encourage everybody to to take a look at take a look at that and I'll I'll [clears throat] share it uh if if you don't have access. Um, and then also to go back and look at the study committee document that the town of O line put together to make that submission and because it I think there's a lot of language in there that speaks to why the removal of a structure would impact the district. And so to draw from that core resource was kind of my my thought on whatever would go in such such guidelines. My my question again, partly because not again, partly because I'm leaving town shortly for a few months, is um to to wonder whether Russ and Ed might be able to put their heads together and just

yeah, look at look at this, see if it works, but plug in, right? You you'll see where this one focuses on the impact of removal of one structure in a section of a historic district. The more holistic approach might

might be sensible. The the second part much briefer on page five talks about possible ordinances. Um the last POC, one of their recommend recommendations um concerning the historic district was to adopt or amend a de demolition delay ordinance for historic houses. Um that's um I think they had in mind historic houses in the historic district commission but that could be outside the the district. I would point out that we do have in our governing statute um three steps we could take with respect to demolitions already. Number one, you you have to have a a CFA for any demolition or removal of any structure. Um so we could refuse to approve a CFA or add all sorts of conditions. Um this the second is that um there are a couple um a couple of uh guess I can combine these into just instead of a second or third a second a couple of specific conditions in our governing statute that refers specifically to demolitions or or removals. Uh, one concerns uh detailed

statements of the proposed condition and appearance of of the property after something is demolished. That's that's something we normally don't do. And then finally um the last provision talks about if even if they have a CFA and a demolition permit has been issued there can be a delay while the HDC or another specified entity pursues shall we say last ditch efforts that's not in the statute but last ditch efforts to find a a different a different buyer who would agree to to uh renovate the property. So, we already have some things, but but we we do have I I would I would like for the commission to follow up with the planning commission and respond to issues that they raised in their POCD. So, we do owe them something. I think in response to that suggestion, we could either say we have sufficient authority now in the district. Second step could be but we're making an additional proposal for historic structures outside the the district and and that's the the last part of my proposal. we we could propose we were authorized to propose ordinances uh new ordinances and I put in [clears throat] uh two two options that are provided for in state statute. One is we could propose a historic properties commission. think

this body, but with respect to individual historic houses outside the historic district, there's a statutory provision that authorizes a town to create a commission for historic properties. And it's [clears throat] really the same language. If you want to change a historic property, demolish [clears throat] it or move it or do anything with it, you have to apply for a C of A. Does the town I So, it's my understanding that when this commission was formed, it was voted upon by residences in the in the district or was it a townwide?

It was town, I believe, but you can check. I think it was. So, so this sounds like it would certainly it would be a townwide vote. Yeah, it's a townwide ordinance. So, yeah. Yeah, I think so. Right. Um, one drawback to that is um it requires the same study process that was undertaken to create a historical the historical district which is very involved and time consuming. Mhm.

Um the second option is the creation of not a historic properties commission but a historic preservation commission and Preservation Connecticut has um I provide the link to a a u uh state statute that authorizes this type of commission. Um, it applies only to properties that are listed on or are under consideration for listing on either the National Register of Historic Places or the State Register of Historic Places. Uh so that potentially is is a little bit narrower in scope than um historic properties commission. The advantage is it's it's really rather uh open-ended. The the drafts that Preservation Connecticut has provided um has three focuses. um re research and documentation. Um uh several ideas for close collaboration with other municipal boards and commissions um and what they term a modest regulatory re review. So it wouldn't be the kind of it it it It would focus on major changes to buildings in particular rather than the concern with everything. All the structures of signs and driveways and walkways and all of that, but it could be varied. Here's the key.

This is a statute quoted here in its entirety. We can you can create the it author the statute authorizes municipal regulation to protect the historic and architectural character of properties as long as they're either on or being considered for the national or state uh registers. So you can do anything or propose anything that falls under that umbrella. It's a it's an addition to it's it's in a statute that lists all the authorities that towns and cities have to regulate everything and this and that. So it's it's it's much more open open-ended. Um,

I I I prefer the the greater clarity of the Historic Properties Commission, but I worry about the detailed study process because I think it's important to have something some regulation, some regulatory mechanism soon. Um, but I'm not I wonder if there's any way to combine u the two, you know, some make our own um Well, what list of list of inclusions?

Yeah, I don't know why you couldn't take the bulk of the historic properties authority and incorporated in the in the second wave. That's what I was wondering with perhaps eliminating some of the wonder things. I mean, we already have through your work and others, we could probably pretty readily come up with a list of historic properties. There's the Concretest listing, too. Um, and and uh,

right, you know, com combine the the two the two things. That's what I was suggesting. Okay. Who wants to do it? I don't have the legal language to be Is this a proposal that we would propose to the selectman to planning and zone? Planning and zone initially and then to the selectman. Yeah. Um the Historic Properties Commission is much more particular about who has to approve uh you know this the procedural steps you go through.

Well, I don't mind taking a stab at combining the language, you know, borrowing some of the language from the Historic Properties Commission and replacing using it to replace some of the language in the Historic Preservation Commission. I could take a stab at that, but you you would have to provide the legal. No, Dave David could detail. I I can't, as you know, offer legal opinions, but Oh, no. I don't mean legal opinions. I just mean you could you could edit. Yeah, you could edit.

Well, I I from from my perspective, there's two parts. There's there's confirming and strengthening the demolition requirements or moving of structures within the district. To me, that's one goal. The second goal is but a broader a broader one. Yeah. Right. And to me the the first goal is the priority in my mind and then the the second is second priority. Can we do them together? Yeah, sure.

You easily could. I I think you know by analogy to the authority we have in the historic district now a historic either properties commission or preservation commission these two options could include authority over or would include authority with respect to demolitions and removals. So what's and and and one other part of part one and perhaps part two is that it's not just the regulation but also I love the the thought of how do we become a resource and and not unlike what happened with the uh

lime youth services lime youth services that it's it's a depository of information to and and I'm not sure that's our role right that's still useful differ from the referral that we did to Shipo with the learning center. Well, it it I mean we h we have authority now to this is our catchall authority. This is how we got to comment on Halls Road and

zoning proposals. It's why we have jurisdiction over sidewalks outside the district or jurisdiction with respect to making recommendations. So it it it envision it's just it's you read through it there are just a lot more ideas about you're you're just adding specifics. What we have now is is built off a uh you know you got very general language saying this. We can provide information now. Well yes and no. The statute says we can provide information to property owners in the district. So that covers the you know the situation you were turning talking about. we can cooperate with other in entities interested in historic preservation.

Right? It doesn't say simply in the district. That was the authority we used when we were reviewing the request to comment on the Griswell Point property. Mhm. Um so you know this just talks about authority if if we wanted to um you know sponsor lectures and set up tours and uh it it's much more specific about the educational well well that that was what I found at the old Sabbrook because that was a historic

old Sabbrook historic district meeting and they had Shipo come give a presentation U which was very very helpful and um and I guess they did that as it was it was their regular schedule meeting. I don't believe it was special meeting um but to me that's how that's how we can pos that's that's the carrot if you will versus the stick. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

I mean Caroline I'm I'm more than happy remotely to to do some preliminary back back and forth about what what we think a statute would like. Now, one one last word with with respect to either of these commissions. Um, but I I'll talk about the historic properties commission with respect to the membership. the town could appoint an entirely new commission with entirely new people. It also says specifically the people on this commission may be the same people on the historic district commission.

Um so my guess is that might well be what comes to pass which translates into yet more work. Well, I mean, not everybody on the commission may want to agree to be on the new commission, but it it is new work. On the other hand, it's important. We almost we almost we came, I think, close to losing a really important historic That's right. house. Um, and

happened in the past. So would it is it too um quick let's say or too hasty to try to um consolidate this language into language that could appear on the website which would force us to consolidate it and be more precise in addition to um fine-tuning or you know um whatever combining the language and the two definitions that you hear you you you provide here My question is I'm is should we use the January 3rd meeting as a target so that we can move this forward both in both in two ways because this is all very helpful but it would need to be winnowed down and Julie and I could work on that. Um and you and I could work on that language and then we might have something we could present in January which would be great.

Well, I mean that that's a that's a a big ask for January. I I think the demolition guidelines could could be adopted and then combined as you have now with with a a shorter, you know, here are however many you had on your list, five or six quick points about signs. And if you want more detailed information, here's the link to the signage guidance. you could do the same same thing with that's what I was suggesting. Yeah. Um

we wouldn't be able to accept it. We'd probably have to discuss it, but maybe then we could accept it in February. I'm not I don't want us to take the same time that we've taken on real tour signs and signage guidelines on demolition. I think we've gotten better at it and I think we should, you know, streamline it and be more efficient and yeah, get it done. Yes. probably more efficient leadership on those things. No, no, no. I just think, you know, it took so many drafts and Yeah, we can do it. We can It's hard to come up with a commissionwide decision, but I I think that's a good I would recommend that be the first goal and we could take a shot on the second and whatever we get on the table,

the sooner we get something on the table, the better. That's right. That's what I There's two documents. It's two two documents, right? That's the second would be a proposal for a town. Right. Right. Okay. Great. Any comments from the any comments from the audience about this discussion

regarding the creation of a new commission? So, John, that would be if I owned a 1850 house somewhere else in Old Time and I had a barn or part of the house that I wanted to demolish or but this would not or or conceivably change in any way such as any changes affecting the historic. That's what I was wondering. I mean, the first one essentially tracks the HCC language. It just it applies it to

individual historic properties here and there that are not in a a dis. So, what other towns do that? Does Sabbrook do it? Weathersfield, like what other towns that have a HDC that are going to Well, an HPC town.

HC. Well, I I I know the the the the Congress uh website lists the Connecticut the Shipo resources of properties that are national, state, and locally designated either district or individual property. Um so there's there's kind of a framework for that, but I don't know how each Well, I mean, Martha, could you get in touch with Shipo or or Preservation Connecticut and just get a get a number so we know how many have this historic properties commission.

Okay. And how many have statutes under the the second listing the the CGS chapter 98 listing. They're two separate separate things. I mean that would be useful to know especially the the second if there's a smaller town the the model statute the model ordinance is in several places kind of geared for a a city it strike strikes me

I just couldn't imagine being a homeowner and then suddenly getting something saying oh now your your house is historic but now These are the guidelines that you have to follow. Is that that's why the town would have to vote? Town would have to vote on it. It's also it's also under the historic properties commission.

There's a procedure where individual owners can object, but they're not automatically excluded. It's part of the study process and it allows them to to make their case that they ought not be included and then the study commission comes back with its recommendation and the planning commission can either agree with the property owner and cut them out or keep them in.

And also two things that I I agree with Russ that that we I think we should find a way to be able to stress the um resources for alternatives to demolition. I think that's very important. And I also just this is also what you said at the beginning Russ under under letter B guidelines for moving and number one importance of preservation. I would recommend that um we move historic properties are irreplaceable up high because I think we need to explain why it's important. And then your second point that removal of any structure affects the entire historic district and then the HDC. So, I would just change the order to

Yeah. And the other thing I'll mention is that and I'm not proposing it, but the original study actually identified a couple of other districts at the time. Oh, great. So, go back and look at the 1971 study. There was a creation of the current district, but there are a couple other

one one or two other areas. I think there were because when we looked at whether or not the um ancient section of the Duck River Cemetery could become part of the an extended lime HDC there's language there that that describes what an extended um right so all I'm saying is that if if it becomes too ownorous or or maybe even the commission doesn't want to submit part two there may be an extension of part one in that there may be um at least at least at the time there was a thought that there are other areas in town

that are worthy of becoming a historic district. Why they chose not to approve that at the time? Maybe they didn't get the votes. I don't know. But but we should we should look at that too. Good. And do we have to dis define what his what is it? A historic structure. Does that mean a structure that was built before such and such date? Does that need to be clarified?

I think again I think I think we should go back and look at what was submitted to Well, I let me put it this way. There are two things that you could submit for at least state or national. One is an individual property, right? Florence Griswell Museum in itself is a national registered building. All the other structures here are not, but they are structures that contribute to the old line historic district. That's right. So, and and are on the national and they're they're by default on the register, right? Because they're part of that district and they can they're contributary

Yeah. items to the district. So the key language under under the second ordinance option, the more general language is properties or districts that are listed on the national register or the state register or under consideration for and the under consideration for I think involves a step of actually you know documentation has been submitted right and some of that document mentation is in the in that historic architectural survey. Right. Right. Right.

So if if we're dra if we're not following the historic properties commission language and I I don't recall what it says about what qualifies. I don't not sure that it has the same limitation. So you might have a broader scope of houses permitted here. But if we're, you know, using some of the authority under the Historic Properties Commission, the first one, in the second, if you we're using that, it only applies to properties that are on the on or being considered for the national or state register. Any other discussion? any is there possibility for public comment

here? I mean, usually you don't, but um are you just would you guys or do you have a comment? Would you guys like to weigh in on this? I don't think we want to weigh in. We were just here to listen to discussion. I'm not sure we want to weigh in on the record. Um but potentially after the meeting adjourns if there's any chance for conversation but uh no as we said you know as we saw we sent you an email and right we just didn't know if that would be brought up today um okay okay after yeah

um secretar's report active CFAs we're just about done So we are monitoring 19 uh situations in the historic district involving active Cas or other matters um that include some likelike applications too. Uh we have do you want me to list them all or not required? [laughter] The only new thing we got was a uh

a like for like form from uh the Merrills on uh 27 Lime Street for a just replacing a roof. A roof. Right. Right. We saw that. Right. Yes. And they they did submit it with the property owner's name on it. Right. And signature. So great. That's what we have.

Um no update on the historic plaque program. Um, right now I'm working on the annual CLG report, which is a certified local government report that we do every year. We report to Shipo on uh how many CFAs we've we've considered, how many we approved, if we denied any, um, and just general things, if there were any new members to the commission, things like that. just a general very brief overview on what we've been doing, if we adopted anything new, um if the town had any um tax incentives for historic properties or anything like that. Um so I'm working on that. And then we have the budget and I included little spreadsheet there which is what they sent me. Um, they sent that to me on Wednesday, like the day before Thanksgiving. Like, I'm really looking [laughter] at it the day before Thanksgiving.

Anyway, it's basically they want recommendations for us if we want to change anything except the salaries. the um the salary for the clerk and the the admin for me. We don't have any control over that. We just control the rest of it. But do we control if we put in a cap um and and the town raises salaries to correspond to cost of living. um that mean would mean we get fewer hours of your assistance. So I'm wondering if we should put in slight increases for

those two items. There are some some parts of our budget that we we don't fully use. If you look at the totals of the budget and then the actuals, we very rarely use all of our budget.

Yeah. I mean, some of these are some of these are problematic because $500 doesn't buy you much legal advice. Um when we when we if you look at uh 22 21-22 when we were trying to figure out some naughty questions about the definition of the district and figure out signage interpretation of the statutory provisions on signs. Um

you know we budgeted 500 we spend almost 5,000. you have to go back for supplemental. So, and then we have, you know, one, two, three, four years in a row where we're spending nothing on on legal. Um, I I I don't know. I guess it makes sense to to keep it in at 500 just as a sort of placeholder. Yeah, that's what they told us. Yeah. just have it as a placeholder and then if something comes up and we need more money we just make the case to the board of finance.

Um other and and miscellaneous would cover what types of things? Uh the miscellaneous covers uh when we send money to um Reservation Connecticut and Florence Griswald. [cough and clears throat] Well,

that's about the only thing we ever use that for. I mean, I would I would suggest um um adding a a little bit more to the first two two items. Yes. I mean that those haven't gone up in in in five years, four years.

Yeah. They kept it pretty steady there. Would you would you [clears throat] want to peg it to uh the cola and have it be a 3% increase? It seemed like reasonable.

Yeah. [clears throat] I mean I' I'd say 3% but so that would be six. Maybe just round up I would make the second one 4,900 and the first one 20 2100 maybe just to have sort of round round figures. Excuse me.

[clears throat] I like the idea of the I mean it's it's uh I've said before, but Martha's help is invaluable still [clears throat] and and there's stuff that Russ and I just can't do. So, Amen. We want to make sure that we're covered. Um [clears throat] do you need a motion to approve? Do we need to approve this? two people leaving. Do we need to approve? Um, yeah, it's a good idea like if you want to keep the other things the same. So, I move we accept the the budget for the coming year with the uh provisions that have been recommended.

Yeah. With the changes that have been recommended 2100, 4,900 and 4,900. Yeah. Uh, second. All in favor? I I um for new business, the POCC [clears throat] um will come in with a list of the stuff that HDC has to get back to planning on. Right. Motion to adjurnn. So moved. Second. All in favor? I Yeah.