Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

have a full schedule. So, let's uh call the meeting to order. Um, as far as I know, Deb will be here, but I believe it's Ed's turn to to fill in. So, um, until Deb gets here or if she doesn't get here [laughter] for today, um, there is a quorum. Uh, is there a motion to approve the minutes from October 6? So, moved. Second.

Okay. I'll take I'll take I'll take Okay. Um uh all in uh any discussion? All in favor? I I uh any opposed? Motion carries. Um public comments. I just want to make sure I'm sorry. Yes, it's a story. Yeah. Sorry, I was just late. Sorry. Hi, my name is Mariela Basham. I reached out to you guys. I think Martha walked back to me. Yes.

Um and I have a co-artner, but she's not here yet. Um I am We're actually This is rare for us, but we're about three minutes ahead of schedule. So, if you want, we can wait for Oh, no. I didn't want to hold you up. She She'd be fine with it. She kind of knows everything. Um just not the best speaker. So, uh, come up instead if you're step. Yeah, that's fine. Okay, please. Yeah, have a seat. Yeah.

Good morning. Um, so I am Marilyn Basham. I am under the umbrella of the Duck River Garden Club right now. And so what we're trying to do, um, I'm gonna here. You want to take one of these and pass it along? Um we are trying to um erect these memorials in the town. Um we have a couple different sites that we're thinking about. We're very early in the brainstorming um project part of this. Um but a couple of the places we were thinking of having it are within your zoning district. And so what I I wanted to know is like I just wanted to get an idea one of what you thought of the project, two what the guidelines are. How would we be we have to go about to like get permission to do this project? Um and if it's I don't know even like something that's doable. Um the places that we were thinking about um was still lane that little corner there. Um

the corner uh the first place it where it splits. Yeah, where it splits. I guess it's not really a corner. The town the town green there. Well, so that that this is actually really great that this came up. So the town green we thought was always down here.

Okay. So there too. Well, that's the second place that we were talking about. So both of the town greens um and then potentially in front of town hall that's sort of been discussed with the select men. So, it's just ideas. And so, I know that three of we're also thinking perhaps of the cemetery. I talked with Tim Griswald. Um, and you know, he's very open to it. I know that you guys are not like you don't have control over that area. And then maybe McCertie Island. Um, oh my gosh, that's fine. I'm just telling this is Barb. Hi. She's also the deck of garden here. She's um sorry. And um

what is what is McCertie Island? Uh so it's off 156 right when you turn on to McCertie road and it's that big island with all the native plantings on it which is beautiful. Um

potentially that so this program was started in 1944 by women of a garden club who wanted to honor the men and women of uh the war coming home. So what they did is they started to plant dogwood trees along a strip of um the highway. So when the service members came back, they had something to sort of see and then later on that turned into plaques. So this is called the Blueest Star Memorial Highway Project. Typically sometimes these markers can go on highways um or they can go on like state roads um with no issues. But if they go into the town like in a civic area, they have to go on like a civic property or or in the case of like the cemetery where it's like a nonprofit and semi-private, not civic, it would have to get approved by the Garden Club Federation of Connecticut, who's the parent of this organization, of this project. um and any site that we do, we would have to get permission for them, but strictly for that because it's not considered civic. So, um this program has been around since n 1944. Um it can only be done by gardening clubs because that's the only like opportunity um for this project to be enacted. And um we're really excited about it and we're really hoping that we can get it in place and have it um the dedication ceremony at the 250th celebration. I've talked with Cheryl Port about it and she's happy to have it. So um I guess we're coming to you just to get some information on if we did pick one of those sites if you would consider it and then what we would have to do to um get it going.

question. So, let me start off with um a really brief brief description and ask follow-up questions. Um we have control, you do need approval for any structure located inside the historic district. So, the um Northtown Green is not in the historic district. Oh, okay. Exempted. So that would be strictly town approve. Uh the 300 ft back from the middle of the road at part of that south town green is in the historic

okay district. Um Sill Lane it h itself the first house on the left is within the historic district. The rest of Sill Lane is not at the historic district. Okay. Um the other places you mentioned, Halls Road is within the historic district up to 300 ft back from Lime Street. Okay. But bulk of Halls Road is not in the historic district. Okay.

Um so if you did want uh the town hall is in the historic district. So basically, if you wanted uh to think about something in the uh very easterly end of Hall's Road or the South Town Green or the town hall, you would need to come to us. And we do have uh a procedure for granting so-called certificates of appropriation uh uh for structures which do include signs inside the historic district, right?

And you know basically would need an advance notice of of couple weeks before one of our monthly Okay. Yeah, absolutely. But um the other thing I would would say and others may want to chime in is you know we we h we do have a few uh commemorative signs if you will in the historic district of the Lafayette sign and the the Lington suffrages sign but those relate directly to one of the historic houses.

Yes. two of the different houses in the in in the district. Yeah. And I I was trying to figure out like I was trying to tie this into where it could be best put related to what you just said and I agree like I was researching McCertie and I'm like does he like what do we think about him and just like trying to get a best feel for it and I really didn't have much except for obviously the town hall because it's Memorial Town Hall. So yes. Yeah. Um well,

I I don't know if you have enough to to to to go on. Um I think it, you know, in terms of approval. Um the town would you know if it were a town green or town hall it would have to go to that organization as the town selectment if you will as well as to us.

Yes for sure. I did talk with Martha about it um a little bit and she's very much for it. And again this is very early in the planning stages. Like we actually have to order the signs by like this week because it takes 28 weeks for them to be made. So, we just we wanted to catch you on this meeting. Um, just to quickly like shoot the idea around, but then also like I guess what you're saying is that we would just need to fill out an application for whatever site we think would be great and then what would happen after that? Well, we would debate whether it's appropriate.

Okay. I it and again, I I don't know. We're we're leerary about sign proliferation in the district and that's why the signs that we have approved are specifically related to one of the the buildings in the district. Okay, great. I just I'm so speaking for myself only. I think I'm repeating what he said, but yeah, the old line town green and town hall there are quite a number of blacks and I think it would look cluttered personally. I also agree with that. If you avoid those, you may not even have to come to us. Okay. Did you want to say anything, Barb?

Do do we get who gets the final decision as to where it goes? That's what I just wanted to know. Well, I think it would be we would decide where we would want it and then the then if we said like Sain just say they would have to approve it and then the Federated Garden Club would be the ones to say yes, you can have it there. Okay. So, we just kind of wanted you guys to tell us if we did want it someplace what we would have to do going forward. And it sounds like we would have to fill out an application and you guys would talk about it and approve it and then we could if it's what the location is in this story. Exactly. We need we need the the design. Maybe this is a design. Yeah. Is it one or two signs and the location the specific location on the site exactly

would have to be uh reviewed and then discussed by the the group here for appropriate we consider all sorts of details the material the size the height the specific location which we would give you I guess this was just like initial meeting like you know what do we need to do so but yes this is exa exactly what it would look like it would have the both the blue and blue and the gold star and then we would have the native dogwood in the back to sort of represent how it all started. So, um all right. Well, thank you very much for your time. Um and we will be back. Great. Thank you. And tell your friends about it because it's it's going in somewhere. This is quite attractive in the right place. Right.

Right. Right. It's going to be wonderful. Okay. Co-chair's report is is very brief basically. Um that's and

I just have two two things to note. On Thursday, I think I have this right, Martha. Um we're meeting with Elena. So, Thursday, Martha and I are planning to meet with Elena Jalbear, who is a Yukon student uh pursuing a kind of local local government internship project here and she is available to help with um ministerial details. we have document organization and uh other similar uh needs and we thought it would be a good idea to take advantage of that that help. Um my second note is just uh thanks to several people. Deanie again who's you know uh already missed shall we say uh and uh thanks also to Ed and Russ who attended the workshop on uh historic house preservation and demolition and we'll get a brief update from them on the high points of what they learned later in this in this meeting. [laughter] Next item on the agenda is vacancies on the on the district. Um, we have lost both a co-chair and a member. Uh, that's Steiny and we have the ability to fill vacancies and elect officers. Um, there we also have now a vacancy on the on the full-time commission.

My thought is that today we should um we should elect officers for the rest of the year and then this is like an interim congressional fill-in uh uh and and then have the the 2026 elections at their normal normal time. Uh we do not get to name the person who will be filling the membership slot, the vacant slot. But we can make a recommendation to [clears throat] uh the selectmen who do fill fill vacancies. And my my thought was um that after whatever we do, I would just simply report to Martha and inform her of new officers and uh if if they're elected today and tell her that we uh would like a bit of time to um see who, you know, get the word out, see who may be interested in in serving filling the vacant the vacant slot.

So, may I add something? Sure. Um my my own recommendation is I agree with you totally about the officers, but I think today we should if we can nominate someone to fill the permanent vacancy. In other words, Denise slot and then the we will need a new we if it's from someone from our group we would need a new alternate member and we would need more time to reflect on and collect resumeums for possible alternatives. That's that's fine. But my point is we we by naming someone [clears throat] we can make recommendations but we can't officially put that person in in the side. So thoughts.

Do alternates get to vote? It alternates vote if a regular member is not I mean for the regular member. No, the the right [clears throat] nobody votes for the reg nobody here votes for I understand [laughter] I just like to nominate you. So okay we [laughter] well

that's all I wanted. Well, I think it's from from my perspective an alternate becoming a full member, it would be the the person with the greatest uh length of time as an alternate and I believe Ed fits that uh position as well um would be my suggestion for the process and I would support that. I mean I think Ed would be terrific. engagement not only the longest serving alternate but extraordinarily active as a participant. So I will take that uh as a consensus that we communicate to the

board of selection that it would be certainly a a a valuable new full-time member of the commission. Thank you for your support. And I would like to nominate Ross as a co-chair to replace Deie in that position as an officer. Uh I would like to nominate him. I know it has that doesn't have to go to Martha. We get to vote on that. So that's correct.

Uh for all the reasons that you have mentioned before, he's the longest serving. Well, I don't know if he's longer serving than Deb or not, but he's longerving and very active and makes huge contributions to the commission. So I recommend and or nominate Russ to play replace Die which means John and Russ would be co-chair for the coming year. Uh is there a second for that motion? Deb seconds.

Um yeah from my perspective it's extraordinarily beneficial to have co-chairs. um some issues just need discussion of fashioning the agenda and on and on and on. So is there

are there other comments other discussion about the motion that smiled across some you're about to be elected. I know. I I I sincerely appreciate the the nomination and and it's been an honor to work uh in the current capacity and and to be able to work with John in continued capacity uh as as a co-chair. I'm I'm ready to take that on if if you so choose. And I I should abstain from this vote. Do Do I get the vote?

Yes. Oh, I'm sorry. No. No. Debit is here. But who votes in place of Denny? Oh, of course. I'm sorry. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm I'm confused. Yes. You are serving on the She she is gone. [laughter] She did submit her resignation on I believe November 5th. So that's when it became official. Uh further discussion. All in favor? I I Okay, motion carries unanimously with one abstension. Um Okay, Russ, we'll be in touch. [laughter]

You got to sit over there. Oh, yeah. Right.

And then the the last thing is as you know, I'm not able to attend three meetings during the year. Russ is occasionally away on on business. Um, our the town ordinance about the historic district commission does refer to a vice chair and I would love to see a vice chair whose function main responsibility really only formal responsibility would be to chair a meeting. in the case that it on the rare rare occasions when Russ and I both are are not help make the miss the meeting official I think so

well I would I would nominate uh Deb for that uh position that was my nomination also great she'd be great yeah Deb also has been on this body for a while and knows the ropes. So, she's very experienced, very thoughtful, makes a huge contribution to the commission. Um, second. Oh, I'm sorry. We had Carolyn second. Any discussion? Favor. I understand. Thank you.

Thank you both. Uh let's move on to the um 74 Lime Street issue. Um the driveway apron here.

Hello everybody. So we have a uh updated plan for the uh driveway based on what we discussed in the last meeting. Uh the idea is to have a chip seal um surface lined with um granite building blocks. Um I don't know if you guys seen the plan. Yeah. Um

the idea is to use the Belgian blocks up to the sidewalk. The the permit that we received for the driveway apron requires a 16 foot uh at least start of the apron, I believe. And I'm not sure if it can taper. If it can taper, it would be nice to start tapering it a little earlier than the sidewalk, but it's drawn for the full 16 feet to the sidewalk and then it starts to taper down to the double track. Uh the idea is to use the same uh it's like a 38 minus gray um like a pear gravel on the surface here that's impregnated into the surface and then it would go to loose stone of the same type and color on the double track all the way to the house. Um,

how wide is the driveway that you want? Did it would taper down where it would continue on? It is uh about 10 ft. And that allows for the um the each double track to be about um three feet with a three or four feet with a strip in the middle. And would you still have the flare out nearest to the house, a slight curvature outward if it were to taper down?

Uh, I believe we'd keep this flare at the end just for ease of, you know, and turning. Yeah. Turning. Yeah. And the middle strip is is grass, right?

Yes. Okay. Right. And we've approved the chips on our prior projects. Yeah. Um I notice on the design you have rein reinstall an antique fence. Um that is the metal fence that's there. that we had to take down for construction, but Okay. So, you just using [clears throat] the exact

same Yeah. and try to uh get it back in place the best we can. It's become quite brittle in its older age. So, we uh get some new supports made and and get it back in place up to the each side of the driveway. And then my my uh My last question has to do with the height of the the blocks.

I think the as we discussed last time, I think the the blocks would be um you know, typically they're two, three inches above the surface. But as we got to the sidewalk, I think we'd have to taper them down to even so that it didn't present a tripping hazard. uh either side of the sidewalk there. The um the drawing doesn't show the blocks on the uh beyond the sidewalk toward the road. Is that right? So you said tapering down just to the sidewalk.

Just to the sidewalk and then beyond that would be um still some chip seal but tapering to a a loose gravel. One one basic question. Is this is this the property line or that is the property line on the this was taken off of the survey. And is the fence does the fence need to be on the property line I guess is the question. So the fence, the existing fence is all off like these are the existing marks as per survey um of where the fence posts actually were. I see. Uh so it is it's on the town property.

It is from all almost all the way all the way down down and then it returns with a few sections onto her property. I'm I'm I'm just trying to get a picture of what you would prefer with the the the tapering. Would you have the the blocks line up? I think it I mean sort of angle in a bit more where ideally I think the you know we would angle the blocks in a bit more to start this taper sooner so it wasn't quite as wide at the sidewalk in one line. Yeah.

And that uh that's a question um for the um the the road department and so the 16 ft is measured where that is at the entrance. So this right at the entrance this is actually drawn the whole apron at 16 feet. So this flare would make it closer to you know 17 feet out on the end. You mean at the the at the where it meets the road.

And there's also the curb at play there, too, because that's the asphalt curb would would end up being cut and then you'd meet up with it with the the two end pieces of cobblestone. When when you replace the sidewalk, will you replace it with an appropriately reinforced sidewalk so it doesn't crack the way? Yes. Whatever whatever the town wants for Well, if if vehicles are going to be going over it, um we've seen the construction has caused the sidewalk to crack.

Yeah. So, whatever sections are damaged, we'll replace, but you know, with with reinforcement for vehicle Hey, other discussion. Um, if we want to okay a tapering, we should note note that and note also the uh stipulation on the reinforced sidewalk. Um just one more question regarding beyond the sidewalk towards um the driveway. Would you do the Belgian block from here to there or is there shrubbery or something in the

there? Uh the landscaping there were some of the um that front U hedge uh we replanted up to the edge of the driveway there. So that I think would act as the um kind of the edge of driveway on that side. And then over here it's going to be pretty close to this fence post. So okay,

the idea is to have that I mean almost these two fence posts acting as the you know essentially um columns as you go into the driveway space. So I think the idea was once visually once you get past the um sidewalk it then becomes a little less formal. It becomes more of the you know double track. What's the distance between the sidewalk to where the actual um the pestone would start? Now the pe the stone is going to my right. You're going to have the same type of stone. Yes. here as you do both sides.

But I'm saying this distance of chip seal uh that that to the property line is about 3 or 4 feet.

Ready for a motion? Yes. I move that we uh approve the request as as written with the stipulation that the concrete sidewalk replacement be reinforced and the and the blocks the belt and stone be tapered down appropriately in a smooth line to the sidewalk. I'll second smooth line I don't know how to phrase it but continuous maybe. Yeah. So the visual the visual sight line is continuous from the the Belgian block to the edge of the driveway that's that's on the west side of the sidewalk,

right? Because you said it would be tapered. So somebody walk by and I guess you could almost say the elevation will meet the elevation of the sidewalk sidewalk. Yeah. At a taper. And that and could we also add as a stipulation that the the Belgian blocks be no higher than what an inch or two.

I think anything you know over an inch is reasonable for retainment I think with the Belgian block. So it says uh you could say no more than two inches, no less than an inch. You're talking something like that. That would be ideal if the show maybe the town allows that. Right. I'm sorry. What do you Oh, I see. Continuous a continuous line.

That's that's what I had in in mind. Yes. Obviously, if the town has different requirements, we can't do anything about that. But I think visually from our perspective, so this is a uh to visualization of the continuous line. Yes. The only thing about the one in I we need to be at the sidewalk. It needs to be flush with the sidewall. I guess you could say no more than two inch. Two inches. Yeah, flush with the sidewalk. No more than two inches. That works.

Okay, Martha, you got that stipulation of the stipulations about the the the tapering. So we have a continuous sighteline um stipulation about the the uh Belgium blocks being between one and should we just say no higher flush at the no flush at the sidewalk no greater than two inches above the chip zero and uh apart from the block you know you might you And it's also

flush to the to the ground level at the at the sidewalk and then no greater than 2 in above the above the ground level elsewhere. I I would say flush at the sidewalk top of sidewalk because the grade the grade may be I don't know what the concrete is on the sidewalk. The the only spot that may pose a problem is at the curb because I think the curb's about 4 in tall, right? So, I don't know if we want the Belgian block to match the height of the curb curb and then taper to the sidewalk. What will be done first? This is the sidewalk going to be done last.

I think the sidewalk will probably be done I think it'll all kind of happen within, you know, a week or so. just tearing everything out and then putting everything back together. But how deep is your Belgian block? Uh, it's a 8 inch. It's a 8 inch block. Okay. So, you could you could go to four inches there. You could or you could taper the curbing down to it if it's because you don't want, you know, you don't want a ridge. Well, that's something you're going to hit, too, you know. So, yeah, the it's not great for wheels. Yeah. Exactly. So I I think it's fine to keep it low and then taper the curb curbing into it.

That's what I would suggest. Yeah. So the 2 inch above the top of the chips would be maximum, right? Okay. those stipulations reinforced sidewalk Belgian block flush at the at the sidewalk and no greater than two inches elsewhere and a tapered line of the the block and we'll if they can take this David give it to Martha and we'll attach that to the Did I get it all? That looks good. Great.

All right. So, we had a motion. I think it was second. Yeah. Um, we have a motion Dev seconded. Uh, any further discussion? All in favor? I I unanimous approval. Great. Thank you. Thank you everybody. We're getting there. I don't know if you're going to see us again. housewarming. [clears throat] Yeah. Thanks so much for all your work. I really appreciate it.

All right. Um and the next item is the six lime street fencing. Elizabeth here. Um, she's traveling. She's going to try to call in. Well, let's post postpone that until she does call in. Um, hello. I'm on the phone. On the phone. Okay, good. Good morning. Hi, Elizabeth.

Hi. How are you?

Fine, thank you. Um, well, we have your proposal for, and I guess it's really just on the on the picket fence. Uh, you're propos Well, you're proposing three things. You're proposing a removal of part of the previous picket fence. Second, you're proposing a new post, end post with a post cap on the southerntherly end of the remaining part of the fence. And then you're proposing a new portion, do I have that correct, of the six-foot cedar fence with a couple of a couple of gates.

Uh, yes. Just to clarify on that drawing, I'm proposing I think it's about 28 feet of linear fence to replace the six foot dilapidated stockade style fence and make an L-shape around the property. And within that fence, uh there's a gate that's big enough for the tree eyes to come through off of ferry. So, it's a a swing gate. And then I'm adding a replacement gate off of my own driveway which faces Lime Street. That's all. is all six feet tall. The fences have a curved top. The fence line itself is just uh straight horizontal. Um and it'll be a nice upgrade above the stockade style fencing, I think. Um and then on the with regard to the picket fence, I'm proposing adding a fence post to intentionally end the current fence where it stops on the line street side of the house. Um, a couple of years ago, I had a contractor out who was going to repair the remaining curved part of the pickup fence and he discovered it was rotted out and offered to take it away. So, I agreed to that and uh decided that a a shrub solution would probably be more attractive for the corner part of the property.

I think that's all showing pretty clearly on the drawings. Do you have those with you? Yeah. is a is a new cedar the 6' high fence um does that extend any distance beyond the the dilapidated fence? Yes to add sorry go ahead hello

I'm here. Yeah, I I'm proposing to add two panels of six foot high fence. The second panel would drop down to four feet and that would extend the fence on the on the ferry roadside to mask the view of what's become a pretty busy corner with parking and traffic on especially on the weekend. And and was there a picket fence in where those two new panels would be?

Yes, that was where the the the old picket fence that brought it out used to go from the end of the stockade fence to um toward all the way around. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's kind of a U-shaped or bow-shaped thing. And are these pictures of um taken taken elsewhere? The one from the the Yeah. I mean, there's a picture with the water. That's just to give us an idea of of what your fence would look like. Correct. Right. That's correct.

Yeah, I did also supply a photograph of the the uh 4 foot tall driveway fence post that match the picket fence. So, I'm asking that the new fence post that and the picket fence is exactly the same,

but all the other photographs are from Atlas Fencing Company. I mean for future reference also Elizabeth you may you may never face this issue again but um we we've we've mentioned it on with in respect to other applications too. You you do need a CFA to remove any structure. Yes. I didn't realize that until um having a closer look this last round. I was really surprised. So apologies for the oversight.

Yeah. Um any any discussion questions about about this? So just to be clear, you're replacing a fence post in the front. No, it's a new fence new fence in the front. Is there a replacement of just a post with a cap? No, it used to be I think it used to be just the the pickets going around. So that's a new pillar. New end post. New end post. So that's just on the left. So that's just a new post there. And then otherwise on the side of the house was there there was pickup fence there. Yes,

that was removed. Okay. And and the height of that existing picket fence was what? Three feet. That's what it used to look like. I think it's a little bit I think it's a little bit taller than three feet, maybe four. Well, around you look at the Well, post is that's connected to post that's going to be here. This is a fence, but the cedar a cedar fence and what she's proposing is the new cedar fence to replace the portion that was rotted out. portion on the

east northwest side that is remaining. But the she's proposing to have the 6ft new cedar come out two panels worth to replace part of that that westerly end of the picket fence. I just wasn't clear that that 96 foot was already existing stockade. I think to the to the upper left it's Isn't there a note to the excuse me upper right isn't there a note saying the exist in reference to the existing fence

right here but I didn't realize it was in that corner that's fine. No no there's an old fence that she's replacing that's along the road. No. Okay. I'm sorry, Elizabeth. We're We're still trying to visualize this on the on the very street westerly edge, right,

of the property, the the new cedar fence. Is that replacing an existing cedar fence? Yes, it's one that between me and the vaulting house on Ferry Road. You mean along the back? You have you have part of the fence line along Ferry Road and then it then you've got a right angle along the westerly river side of the property. Um,

right. And and is there right now a cedar fence that you're replacing alongside along that westerly edge of your property as well as along road. Okay. I I understand. I removed that section I think about a year and a half ago and I've been working with a landscape designer. So as it happens quite a lot of deer come through and it's going to make more sense to put the fence back and to leave it open. Okay,

just so on this this drawing, the dark line represents what's going to be replaced and new. And then the dotted line, say on the uh western or the back of the property that's already there and is not moving. Is that correct? That's correct. No, that this this end is this has been taken down.

Yeah. Okay. So, so what I I'd like to just understand the height of the proposed new fence along Ferry Road is Does it go to 32 and then 48 in? Am I reading that right or is that the length of fence? Right. So, what's what's the new height of the fence on that goes along the Ferry Road side? It's six six feet. Six feet and then at to this end. It tapers like this down to 4T. So it tape it it slopes. Go ahead. Let me let me listen. Yeah.

Yeah. Please go ahead and describe. Okay. The 32 ft that you're seeing is from the corner of my property line with the Vulpies to the the gate. The 48 ft is from the gate to the um existing end where the I have a private hedge in front of the stockade fence. And then you can see there's a little bit of an extension there that then slopes down from six feet to four feet. The entire fence is six feet tall for most of it. And then there's this little um graceful step down to again end it with intention and a and a and a post at the end.

I see. I see there's a notation to the left of the uh last section that says 8 feet. What does it does that apply to the width of the gate? No, that's that's linear feet for the fence. The gate the gates that are shown on this map are on Ferry Road. There's a there's a 10 foot wide gate, right? The two five foot panels are six feet tall. That's where a truck can come in to do the tree work. And then if you come over to the driveway side of my house, there's a 4 foot man gate that goes to the right of the garage. Right. Right next to the garage. Yes.

But this must be 8 feet of this opening. That's the opening. The 8 ft. It's linear length. The height. Yeah. Right.

Eight ft along the ground. The tapered brush. I got it. Okay. Got it. I think we've got I think we've got a picture now. Just for clarification, could you explain why the gate on the Berry roadside needs to be 10 ft high at the top of the arch? It's not 10 ft high. Just to clarify, it's 10 ft wide and the drawing show very clearly, it's no the top height of the curve is six feet. Okay. Thank you. I understand. Thank you. Wide. Okay. Thank you.

Yeah. I'm trying to strike a balance of, you know, a friendly face to the town and the church and everything and and some privacy. Right. Right. So, I move we accept the um proposal the CFA as as presented for the multiple um changes and replacements that Elizabeth has requested. I'll second. My only suggestion is that we add a stipulation or require a second CFA application for the removal of the picket fence and the removal of the uh dilapidated 6 foot by cedar fence. Good.

Is that separate from you mean entirely separate CFA application for one project? Yeah. Sorry, I'm not I'm confused. it technically it should be but I think I think if we we can we can clarify it Elizabeth by just adding the stipulation that the existing Ca be um amended to note that you also are seeking approval of the removal of the picket fence and the dilapidated 6-foot IC Cedar fence. Okay.

For me or you are you putting it into the into the resolution today? Do you know technically we need a separate CFA for removal? I think I think you can you can include it on this. I think it suffices, Elizabeth, if we just add the stipulation today that uh the u the application includes an application for removal of the old fences as well as the the new proposed. David, you had a question. No. So, the removal is at the corner. So, there's not going to be a fence at the corner. Is that

what I'm Yes. And there was a picket fence extending down to about there that's being removed. And all of that right was removed. Removed. Right. Right. Just trying to get a picture of what this looks like. David comment question. Okay. Yeah, that's good. Um, any further discussion? It's all painted cedar, right? Any comments from the cedar from the audience? Weathered. Weathered on. All in favor of the the motion. Wait, wait one second. Oh, it's it it's weathered cedar on the

on the exterior. It's not a It's Yeah, it's not a side facing the road. The side facing the road. It's not a painted cedar depth. Is that correct, Elizabeth? It's weather cedar facing the road. And then I'm proposing to stain the gates and the interior hunter green. So the visible part would be weathered cedar. Yes. Other than the the two sets of gates, the the dilapidated fence was also weathered cedar. Correct.

Painted right along the back here. Right. But but this part was a painted thicket. So we have to right are we okay with a a weathered versus a not color but a weathered versus a painted fence along Ferry Road. What I'm saying is it used to be that I I walked it every day unfair. It was It used to be so used to be No, it was it was weathered cedar but not for the full extent of what she's proposing to do here. There was weathered cedar along here along Ferry Road. Yes, but it didn't come all the way. Yeah.

Okay, I'm okay with that. Most of it most of it's behind a a big pivot hedge also. Right. Yeah. And there's a hedge here, too. Got it. Sorry. Thank you. Are we okay with with it it being finished on the inside and weathered on the outside rather than weathered on both sides? We don't really have a say on what's on the inside. It's not visible. I bet it is visible from Lime Street. You'd be looking across the picket fence across the house. You would see I guess I guess you're right. You're correct. I think for sure you'd see it. Yeah, you're right. My suggestion would be perhaps consider whether on both sides, but that's a discussion for the group.

I I personally don't have any objection to being stained on the in inside I think. But are we talking this versus this? Yes. Right. I would say the the weather, the natural look. What do you think, Russ? It's kind of odd to have a a fence painted on one side and not painted on the other. I mean, I would like to add that stipulation if everyone It's either painted on both sides or it's weathered on both sides. That's That's You mean stained?

Stained. I agree. Or stained. All right, Elizabeth, are you hearing hearing this? The um Yeah, I'm hearing it. Yeah, I would be grateful if you could um give me the link to the part of the historic district commission that has authority over color choices. I was not aware of finish. Finish, not color. Finish. Okay. Yeah. Right. So you have a strong preference for weathered finish rather than stained finish.

We we we technically we have a jurisdiction over whether material is painted or not stained or not. Um so that's that's what we're de debating, right? I see. Okay. And so does this opinion or resolution apply to both the fence and the gates or just the fence? In other words, the the gate the gate is proposed to look as it would in the in the in the picture.

Wouldn't it be wouldn't it be better to have it all consistent, one material inside and out, paid and fence? That's since you're seeing both sides, it seems to me that it ought to be one finish, whatever that finish is. And we have several photographs with different finishes. So what was the one that you were proposing? I was proposing to do a a green thing on the inside of the fence.

Plant planting on the inside. I Deb couldn't hear hear what you said. Just confirming you said a planting or green along the inside of the fence. I was proposing to stain it hunter green the inside of the fence. Leave the street side weathered and then have the gates also stained green on both sides. Kind of excited about having green. I'm not following. I'm sorry. I I heard stained green. on the inside and then the gate stained green on both sides is what that's and the stockade is natural.

Yes. Weathered cedar. Weathered cedar on the just on the exit. On the outside. What does she want to the inside? The inside of the fence of the sixoot fence. Yes, that's right. And and the gate and the gate large gate or both gates. All gates is what I heard. Correct. All gates stay green. Correct. And what about the back section? The section on the west side be the same. I think it be the same.

Yeah. So the the same stain would that you're proposing would be on the back the back side the of the property as well as the side that faces Berry Road. Yes, it's a color that really helps the fence kind of disappear amongst the trees that I'm putting in. Yes, she's putting a green. I see

I see the intent. The intent I think the intent is to try to make blend make it blend in on the on the inside on the the interior on the interior. So she's going to stain the interior green. Get it? But the exterior of the two gates would be green. Right.

That's correct. And then the and then the balance of the fence would be um unfinished weather. Right. So, I'm sorry, Elizabeth. It's it's a little awkward. I us trying to get a picture of this, but is on the on the 10-foot gate, are you proposing a green stain on the inside and a finished stain on the outside or green stain to the whole gate or weathered on the outside and green stain on the inside?

A great question. And I'm proposing uh the assistant Sherwin Williams center green stain on the entire gate. Both sides. Entire gate. Yeah. So the gates are green or stained. Um both sides. And then the inside of the fencing is stained green. Yeah. And the outside is the outside is green is the outside. The fences have two different finishes and then the gates are a different finish than the outside of the the the gate will be the same finish is the inside of the interior of the of the open. There's continuity. Right.

But the gate facing Lime Street will also have the green stain. Correct. As well as the gate facing Ferry Road. That's what I heard. Right. That's correct. Well, we should add to the motion whatever it is uh that we're happy with approving in terms of options for staining versus non-staining. I I just have one more question. If there's going to be this gate there, is was there a gate there initially? Will there vehicles just is there going to be a pad? Is there going to be some sort of pad? If she's talking about vehicles,

the next the next question, Elizabeth, is on the picture of the gate. the 10- foot gate, it shows a a a padding. Uh but for vehicles, I mean for for for vehicles, are you are you proposing anything outside the gate to facilitate vehicle access? Are you proposing a pad as shown? It's just a picture

as shown on the picture. It's just ground with um grass on it right now, which has worked out fine. And I think the fence company sinks two matching um tubes into the ground. So the uh fence um lock or or anchoring drops into a a a metal tube that's cited in the ground. The same there exactly the same as it is now. Actually, there's no cement pad there. No cement. No cement ground. You do not propose to have anything other than grass between the sidewalk

and the and the gate. That's right. Correct. Okay. Correct. If you're not going to be moving a vehicle through a 10-ft gate, may ask what the function of a 10-ft gate is. She gate is very useful for when Dartlet Tree comes through and does the tree work. It's the only way into the yard. Okay. It's not, but there's no road cut or anything. All right.

All right, folks. We need to have a motion that reflects um not only the construction but the the staining the finish. First I withdraw my previous motion so that we can have a new motion. Seconded you would okay with withdrawing the motion? Okay. New motion.

Any does anyone have a new motion? John, you're the we're ruminating, Elizabeth. Sorry. Okay. Do we have Let me ask you this question. Do we have precedent in the district with uh and I'm I'm pretty sure we do with different color gates and fences. In other words, where the gate is is a different finish uh than a than a fence. I can't remember any.

No, I don't know that we have a any similar I mean we have we have stone fences and and wood gates, right? That's That's different. Yeah. Um how far from the road from Lime Street is the fence? Do you know, Elizabeth? Roughly how far from the road from the Lime Street road? Yes. Um well the picket sentence I mean it's

I don't understand the question actually. Okay. So you're you're showing here. I mean it looks as though the entire property is inside the historic district. I think it is. I'm going to check. That's all we're double checking. Yeah. So, John, just to move things along because we can't spend any more time on this, I'll restate the motion that um I move we we accept the COVID as presented with the stipulation that the fence and the gate be consistent and in being in being constructed of weathered cedar on both sides. Is there a second?

And with the stipulation that the application be amended to reflect the removal. Yes. Right. Yes. The two faces. Yeah. Is there a second to Carolyn's motion? De seconds. David, just to to clarify here, the accept or the certificate of acceptance precludes her from staining any part of her fence. Is that as proposed? Is that correct? Yes. If it's weathered, it's not stained.

Can we do that? We can we can we can approve. We don't have control over colors. We do have control over whether something is to be finished or not. Or she has the hop option. I would I would suggest the motion to stain the entire fence. So it's either un unfinished or or finished. We would have to approve it either way. But the motion as as presented calls for a totally unfinished fence fences and gates inside and out. Inside and out.

Okay. Well, that's a that's a compromise I can live with. But I think, you know, once it's up, if um we can see how it looks and there's I'm sure there's always the option to come back with a another CFA round if if that's desirable. Yeah, I can I think Elizabeth, that's that's that's sensible. If you want to come back and seek a modification of the the CFA to to to ask that there be a finish, then that's that's would be your prerogative and we we'd have to consider that issue should should the need arise.

Okay. Okay. Further discussion? All in favor? I I I. And who's who seconded that? I did. Deb. Deb did. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Motion carries. Thank you, Elizabeth. It's sorry it took a while to sort out, but I think we're all on the same page. And we we appreciate your your help here. Oh, no. Thank you very much. And I I appreciate the committee's patience. I know that your project has evolved and uh I thank you.

Okay. Um Russ and and Jill Todd's proposed renovations and additions is next. We had a pretty thorough um [clears throat] presentation last month uh preceding the formal application and have things changed since last month? Not much. The good news is no not so uh what we presented last month is uh pretty much what you have in your packets with the exception of two things. We modified we had shown you two sconces on the porch but found that there just wasn't enough room for them. So we moved it to a pendant light. It's still a Scoffield historic light. It's an onion light and that's been included in your drawings. And then the other thing we added um the original north wing of the house has um had a ballastry and we have pictures um that we've included in here um that shows what that looked like at one time and we thought this would be a good time to go ahead and add it back. So we wanted to include it in this package. Um the original ballastrade or the the one that's in the picture we showed is a little bit ornate uh which we're not sure if we can completely replicate. So we're showing a simpler design here with the idea that if we can pull off the original we will but otherwise we'll just keep with a simpler one

and outside of that the plans are the same and the ballast straight is I mean where where is the that picture that you this one just yeah that's all we have the is to replicate that down uh we just trying to make sure we can do it. Okay. You're talking about here right here. That's the side. Yes. Yes. And so you can see in this uh rendering it's just a simple picket but the picture if you look right here right there there's the original

which is I mean there's snow on it so it looks a little um different than it would but um that's the only picture we have of it. So on the elevation drawing we show a ballast grade in that location. It's just a simpler design. So it would hopefully we can create that that's in the photo. If not it would be a simple picket ballister and the for the lamp that's is that outside. Well that's not the lamp. The pendant lamp. pendant lamp is shown in the drawing itself right here. Um

it's just it's a a traditional onion style. It's on your um very nice. And that's right. That's correct. It's on the It's hanging on the porch of the new John. You can just get mine right there. Oh, okay. Just an onion style.

It's a Scoffield light from their historic um collection. My only question was um on these uh unit layouts you've you've highlighted two different options which which goes where

I assume one is for one door and one's for the other. There's there's actually go to the upstate remember what I did there. So, the intent is to replicate or what's what's actually on the drawings. And what did I do? Upstate door. Is it forward?

Oh, it's this. This is it. Um Oh, yeah. So, oh, one is one has a panel at the bottom. Yeah. And the other one doesn't, right? And that's a decision that we haven't Well, no. Decided to do the all glass. All glass. So, it's the one that's in the drawing, which is which is on the drawing. Yeah. At the time when I when I submitted this, I wasn't sure if we needed a kick panel at the bottom for the mudroom entry and and we did decide upon that and so actually it's the it's it's the one on the left that was highlighted mu1034. Yeah. Okay.

Sorry about that. Yeah. And so and that's actually shown in the the main elevations which we have right here. Yeah, I said it right. Okay. Yeah. With with the um [clears throat] there's other comments. Ros, I have a comment. I prefer I'm looking at the elevation drawings. Yes.

Uh and I'm still thinking about the ballastrade. um which is quite visible from the street and I know the historic photo is snow covered but so I can't exactly see what the shape or or structure design of the earlier ballastrate is but the one as you show it in the elevation looks quite modern to me and not as um and I I would prefer to have but I can't see the original design so I don't know how much difference there is but it it does look a bit modern um and I would prefer the more historic design of the ballast rate if you can manage it. I agree. Totally.

Yes. And I mean and we're happy because we kind of threw this in last minute. We can certainly come back once we know exactly what we're doing. Okay. So that we can have a discussion on that valuable picture. I think that's a good idea and get your input too because we want it to look great. Yeah. Of course.

Yeah. Um so this let me let me move that uh we approve the application is submitted with the clarification that the the door u options are resolved in favor of MU 1034 as per the drawing with the uh stipulation that The approval does not include the ballast straight, but you know, you can come back, right? Okay. Yeah, I'd like to make that motion. I I made the motion, but

Oh, you made it. Okay. I thought you were calling for it. I said it. Yes. Kind of. Save S save a few minutes. U Okay. Further discussion, comments from the audience. All in favor? Any? Motion carries an abstension presentation. Well, little birdie told me to do it that way. [laughter] Thank you for your time.

This is I know it's been a headache and a half dealing with the fire, but this is exciting. Well, lemonade, right? We're I hope you find it exciting. Well, it is now that we're moving forward with this, but yeah, it's it'll it's all good. Thank you. Thanks, John. Just for future reference, when say Russ uh recuses himself, does it does Julie then step in to give us five or you still have a forum? We have a forum with three three actually. So, but for voting,

yes. Um the old lime insigns uh the kitchenings have contacted Martha and we'll come in with a proposal for a discussion but they could not make this meeting. I do note in driving past that the uh sign on the fence has been removed and the sandwich board signs have been sign has been removed at least for now. So uh I think that takes care of that concern and museum is next.

Gonna try to plug into the screen here. Oh yeah. Second morning, Peter.

What? We debated on bringing Joshua today and I've been at the museum for 66 weeks and he's owned this product project for 64 of them. So, but uh I thought it was just two weeks training wheels are still on so I would bring them just in case. Yeah, big big changes. Joshua, I don't know whether to say congratulations or shame on you. [laughter] Anyway, it's bittersweet. No, no doubt. Yeah. So,

um well, I guess my main question, maybe you we can start with this is I I I don't see a clear indication of what you want us to do today. As we mentioned um at the last meeting, we do not have jurisdiction over anything outside of the district. Your application form checks that the type of construction is a commercial structure. Um my understanding is that that structure is not in the historic district.

I think that that's right. I when we um sort of met with Marthur and um Eric, the idea was is that um the materials should at the very least come to you for sort of your awareness and review and if there's any questions that we could and should answer, then we would. Um but I I think that that's mostly right. you know, we we're trying to uh in two phases, we're trying to build um extensions or expansions to the museum that um sort of help it architecturally and visually keep up with its sort of reputation and stature. Um and we feel as though this does that while it also makes sure that the things that are so important to the town are preserved. You know, these complement rather than really compete with the mansion. Um but they uh give us really important and much needed expansion space. Um we have no real ability to host more than 20 people at a time. Um you know additional galleries um to interpret or reinterpret the the landscape uh and make it a bit more agrarian instead of a parking lot which it currently is. Um those are the things we wanted you to sort of be aware of and and and and if you had questions we would be here to answer them.

Well so when it comes time we do approve obviously they got a point of not not approving structures that are outside of the district. Uh we do approve structures that are in the district which would include the the new driveway. Um, I don't know. I don't see exactly maybe it's on the on a on a map or drawing how far back the proposed new gate this new gate would be um back from Lime Street. My guess is that that is within 300 ft of the center of Lime Street. So, we would need to approve that.

Sure. I've read all we would need to approve the paving of uh the farm road. The farm road. Yeah.

You say no signs are anticipated at at at this time, but um if there are signs um permanent signs, we would need to approve them. And we also need to approve temporary signs. But we can sort of do that in advance. But for all of those things, we need specifications of materials and heights and samples of material and all the all the all the little minutia, if you will, to get a complete picture of what you're proposing.

Now, does this is just a question. um would be prepared to do whatever is necessary. But does that include when you say temporary signage, Sean, does that mean um signage that uh uh lets uh people know about the uh construction process in in in motion or um to sort of provide direction for when you enter so that you don't interfere with construction equipment or are you talking something that's

any signage would would need to come before us. Yeah, I mean I can speak a little bit to that. Um, in in addition to the application, there was a set of drawings that were submitted um that indicate the boundary of the historic district commission um and limits. Um

the so there is a new driveway that is partially within um that extent um that is going to be a chip seal surface drive. I know that was a question that came up when we met last kind of informally whether it was asphalt or chip seal. It's a chip sealed driveway and there's also drawings of the proposed gate. We don't have material samples but there is a details and description um of the gate and that set of drawings I'm trying to get on the screen um unsuccessfully. Okay. I yeah I I know you had sent something in that showed the boundaries of the historic

CMI. Maybe that's our one clarification is if a structure is partly within and partly without outside the district. We do have jurisdiction. So, I'm sure you wouldn't be changing the surface of the driveway for the portion that goes out, but just we would do that all all at once.

Yeah. So, the the majority of the new driveway is outside is, you know, beyond the the the line of the historic district commission, but it does kind of clip and extend beyond. Um, we do not propose changing the first, I don't know, 75 ft of driveway that is existing. I can uh the drawings will be instructive if I can if we can get them done today. It's in forward. Just Yeah, worked last time. What's the wrong this?

Maybe it's not for Oh, plug that back in because that just came on. It comes up automatically. There we It is for And you're on there. I'm trying to scream here. I can just restart my computer. Sometimes you got to go with the nuclear option. Um, and we'll see what happens. But so sorry for that application.

So I mean for in terms of of the the major work the the building.

Yeah. um that's clearly outside the district. If if the building department or zoning needs a statement from us affirming the fact that we have are not with that we don't have jurisdiction over that matter. We can provide it but it should be it should be obvious. So, um, you know, we can I'm a bit I'm a bit reluctant to approve the the gate, you know, the the things that are inside the district today without more more specifics. the the gate is outside of the the boundary barely but I mean but I'm um

sorry I didn't know that and but it's very very close to that that line. Um does the fence touch the boundary or cross the boundary? The fence does not. It does not. Okay. No, but we do have information about the gate which may not be you know fully fleshed out in the way that you would like it but and you know it's a you know two granite posts. It's a cedar gate bronze um hardware which I would love to get up on the screen. Uh clearly my I didn't know you were that far along. I forgotten. Is the cable faulty maybe or I don't know if there's another cable. Was there a second cable? I

mean it it acted like a I'm restarting this. Um But there are there are you know architectural details of the gate provided. Well, if it if it is in fact outside outside the district one. Yeah. Let's see. One. That's like

and now we I would say it said bedroom on his computer. So someone's using this uh as the room TV just didn't say like conference room confusing

I think that's me I think. Yeah. So I can I can uh oh did I do something wrong? Well, it's not the area. Um, so it's it's a very subtle line on this drawing here, but there is a a kind of a pink colored line here that steps back. So, it isn't this property isn't a a uniform 300 foot offset from right

um street from center street. So it does this um this is the gate here and there is a there is a fence on either side of the gate um and this is the proposed new road. So where that ties into the existing driveway is within you know between the road and that line that limit the majority of the new drive and the gate are beyond that line. So are you are you going to propose where where is where is Lime Street? Okay. Yeah. So from Lime Street up to where the new park branches off. Are you leaving that asphalt?

Our plan is to leave Yeah. is to leave this as is and not resurfacing. So, it's really just uh So, the the farm road portion Well, point point the gate to me. So, the gate is right here. Okay. And and towards Lime Street. From the gate, how far would this resurfacing that's shown extend? Just to the place where the new driveway branches off. We would we would So, the existing driveway comes in here. We're going to we're going to cut it and transition to the new farm lane, but that won't be resurfaced just where this new drive ties in from that linear.

It barely So, it's really just a little corner. Okay. So, yeah. I mean, if if it's what what more is there to be said about chip seal if you want us to approve that? [laughter] I guess we could and save save signs sign signages for later once you know what I mean I don't think there's and even then I don't you know I don't anticipate the museum changing it signage out front signage during the construction that would happen would be on Paul's road Paul's road uh and that would be temporary construction signage of saying uh but that's outside your say north of the the 300 right

or not Yeah. West. Yeah. I have a question, John. If one if one part of the driveway um configuration is in the historic district, would that include the gate and the remainder of the driveway as well? Because if one part is in the district, then all of it is all of it. Then the district has juris whatever comment on all like a like a structure like if one part of it. That means we could comment on that.

I think that's true with the new driveway. That portion is is in the historic district. So, we should approve whatever the finishes is. I mean, the chip seal for that driveway. But the the the gate and the work on refashioning the farmland lane is outside the district. So, I I I find it hard to say that's all part of the driveway that is in the district. Is it possible to resurface the driveway from the from the street to the new lane and and have it look continuous and not patchwork? Well, since there's something existing and they're not proposing changing what's existing, we can't

asking your question, but it's a good point. I mean, that that section of the road is, you know, like any road will need maintenance and upgrading at some point. And so it is quite possible that we'll have to come back to you for another certificate um to to to do that part of the you know fix repair update that part of the driveway. But at this point it's not it's not included. Not included. It I think Ed makes a good point though. It would be nice that the design is thought of holistically so that at some point that becomes one one piece. I think that would probably happen. Yeah. Yeah.

Is it regular asphalt right now? Is that what it is? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And it needs it's going to need work. I mean, there are other we're we're happy to just share ideas, provide a sounding board, but we just don't have any say. We talked, for example, last meeting about the the proposed [clears throat] stone wall and having more natural stone. But if you all want to do what you've got in the picture instead, we we sort of grit our teeth and say, "Okay, well, it's outside the district."

It is a more rustic wall than I think was it shown in that one image when we spoke last just to to bring you up to speed and I can go to that picture if it's helpful. But I mean to your point, John, I think in the same way the museum wants the sort of town to like and appreciate what we've done with it or plan to, right?

Here was the was the image that was commented on. that was a a much um kind of tighter version of a stone wall and this is a bit more rustic um of a rustic field stone application similar to to this you know this image. I think it's maybe a better rendition of how we envision that wall more farmlike than you know contemporary. with the pavers. Are there two different types there? Is that Yeah, there's there's a a combination on the left of this image are granite kind of slabs. Okay.

Um and then the the the pedestrian walkway is um a kind of a seated concrete with exposed aggregate. Um so it's not stone pavers all the way through. There's a combination of granite slabs and then this um exposed aggregate concrete and the aggregate is Connecticut granite. Yeah. So we would use this that aggregate would be granite that matches the granite slabs that we're using. And is there lighting within this path and lane or

there is lighting on the pedestrian walkways? It's not shown in the rendering. There are there's ballards just to kind of wash the walking surface. And then in the parking areas, there are pole fixtures um that go between 12 and 16 feet in height. And the planning board will have or I guess the zoning commission uh will have purview over that. We're meeting with them tonight. Actually, [clears throat] I I think lighting is an it's a neighborly thing in that you're still in a residential neighborhood. So, anything to think about relative to the lighting for the this the main building and the time of day and the operation of that? Again, this is out of the historic district, but

Sure. You're still in a neighborhood, so Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the the goal is to provide the amount of lighting we need for safety for staff and patrons, but but the minimum required to meet that. They're focused on that safety part, right? Right. Yeah. We're not, it's not kind of show showy lighting. It's really just about marking pathways and things like that. The river the river commission had some of the same concerns especially with uplighting and we said I'm sorry I can't hear. Sorry, I couldn't hear.

I was saying um the river commission had some of the same concerns. They were um they were mentioning you a desire to not have anything that represented up lighting particularly for the parking lot. So um they felt as though that's that interferes with all sorts of things. kind of the dark sky mentality of design. Um, and and it is both for the river but also it's a residential neighborhood. So, yeah. So,

in in terms of what we uh could do today officially, um, would anyone need more details about the chip proposed chip seal? Yes. We don't have a CFA that maybe I'm not reading it right.

The C the Ca refers generally to the full proposal but we could act on the part of it that has to do with the driveway if we want. I think I think because this is such a major project that is so pro proximity to the historic district, I think there needs to be a clear line of what we have jurisdiction over and what we don't. And it might be helpful that there's a map that shows. I'm reluctant to to vote on CFA for the entire project. I know, but that's what's been submitted. So, I

I think as a matter of process that that we really clarify what what it is we're voting and and I don't I don't know if we can modify this CFA to do that well or here or we can we can let's say that we approve the the the the driveway and add a statement that we're not approving anything else because it's not within our jurisdiction. that might work.

My question is if if we go ahead the chip seal, do we need more? Do do people want more information about color? Uh yeah, size. So yeah, you know, uh I think the way to go then is is this application is dated signed on the 27th. What? I'm sorry. Signed on the 27th of October.

October 27th. Um, so you know, if you could want to come in with the details about the chip seal for next uh for next meeting, we can do that. Otherwise, I would say just um it it might be as rough suggested cleaner if you just withdraw this and come in with a Ca application that refers only to um matters that are in the district in the in the district.

I I would I would suggest that the museum gets your approval or your statement that you don't have jurisdiction over anything but that and I would recommend they submit this exactly as they submitted it but with more information if you want. I think for everyone's protection, it's better for you to say we approved this part of the COA and this is all we have at all we have. I'm sorry I hadn't focused on

Yes, we do. We do have in detail and there was kind of an appendix to the the 8 and 1 half by 11 application that included drawings. Um and and this is the chip seal detail for the new roadway surface um that we're proposing. you know, it doesn't specify a color, but it does give you the kind of composition of that material and how it's going to be um construed. Are you leaning more toward the browns or the grays than the stone?

I think we'd be leaning more towards the grays than the browns just we've got cobbles and other um kind of gray materials on the projects. We'd want to kind of complement those. I I think um but but that's you know up for discussion certainly

I'm going to declare a a general consensus based on Carolyn's comments and Russ's comments Carolyn's questions and Russ's comments that what we do today is is ask you to withdraw this simply come in with something that refers specifically and only to this and include food colors or color options that you're you're considering. Yeah.

Um we're happy at any time to provide a a letter um saying that based on our conversations, our understanding is that only the new driveway or portion of it is in historic district and other things are outside our jurisdiction. My understanding from the planning group is that they're going to want that as as some sort of letter, some sort statement from the historic commission. Let me let uh Russ and I fashion a a letter to that effect and and uh we'll

direct it to who I guess you you and your whir to to I guess maybe directed to copy zoning and planning. I would make it to to the zoning and reference application of of the museum and in regards to the application of the museum dear dear planning we the historic district commission blah blah blah blah blah but I I wouldn't make it to the museum because it's

we need we in order to to write that accurately we need we need from you and maybe we have it a a clear drawing indicating the scope work that is specifically in the district and a scope of work that's outside of the district almost like in the contractor language, you know, outside of scope. Yeah. And and and and maybe it's your site plan that

Yeah, there is there is a line demarcating that kind of this this line here, but we can submit um we can submit that more clearly and edit the application to be as focused on what's in your jurisdiction. And I think that'll be helpful with this letter because when the zoning sees it, they're like, "What do you mean historic district?" This is most people would assume that this project is within the historic district. So, I think a clear map that that shows that I think this would be this would be a copy of that. Attach that to the right the letter if you could just pull out that page and send and even but shade it. Yeah, we can pair. I know what you're also.

So, it's easy. We know exactly what's in, what's out. Yeah. Yeah. Happy to do that. Great. One one more question.

Um I'm looking at the estimated start date and wondering if the driveway is included in the work that's going to begin in March 2026. I think we've think we've decided that the the driveway um will be part of phase two and we'll be using the back the halls entry um with permissions um to get equipment onto the site and um and allow people to um leave like they normally would um for all sorts of reasons. Um, but it made more sense uh for everybody, including the contractor, that um rather than sort of trapesing through the entire property while they're building a road to just simply use the halls access. It's a great question, Caroline. Thank you

because I know that that's been in both versions. I'm looking one one other question. So, I'm looking at the boundary and specifics. It looks like that's true. Am I reading that this is the boundary? So anything that's happening here is also part of the district. Correct. Correct. And this and this is the the farm. Uh this is the drive. This is plantings. This this element here, right? So I can go to let me flip to the existing um plan just to give you a sense of what's make sure

this is the demo plan. Um so there is an existing pedestrian walkway here that will be maintained. There are parking spaces that serve the two barns. Those will be removed when we transition over to the farm lane, but those parking spaces are just outside of that uh limit for the historic district commission. So everything to the right of that line will be preserved as is. We're not proposing there's no demolition of sidewalks, any demolition or change. All the work is I mean it's it's not deliberate necessarily, but all the work is happening just beyond that line. Yeah. Yeah. We're wiping out the parking space and then planting

the bottom center gray area with the two black dots inside it. This Yeah, this this is just showing tree protection because this is a demolition plan. There's two existing trees here that will be preserved, but they want, you know, want to make sure that there's no activity too close to those trees, right? I I suspect they're going to want to come we're going to want to come back doing you know COA for this because this what if you've been on it you know that it needs needs but that's and you know that might be something where you ask them to do chip seal to match you know to your point to match everything and get rid of the the ashalt

which would frankly probably last longer for the institution too. Right.

Okay. So, we're we're we're clear. I hope that uh if you could send us or send Martha that that diagram with any any shading you could add that more clearly identifies the historic district. That's number one. Number two, um are you agreeable to withdrawing this CFA application and then resubmitting one for the the the chip seal? Uh you know, if it's not immediate, doesn't have to be submitted. U there's [snorts] not going to be a problem, but we do for the record need

as much detail as we can get, including color, proposed color. Um, so how long does the COA last? If you approve it, but they don't get the phase two, we don't get the phase two for another three years. You know, usually typically it lasts for a year. So if you do it now, then you're going to have to come back in in a year and seek a renewal. And so um it may make sense for you just to to wait. But when you're ready, resubmit that. But you were prepared to do a letter to the planning.

Yes. And that's the third thing. And then as soon as we get this, we will send a letter to uh you're not going before the planning commission, are you just zoning? It's zoning. Yes. Special through the zoning commission. Submit a letter to to zoning and basically copy copy you uh copy the building department too, just so they have it on file. Yeah. because that's usually what they're they're they won't even that's one of the check marks they need because you technically have to check your you [clears throat] have work in the district because you do have this right so they're like well where's your district approval right right right right and then it would be conditional on approval of the chip seal when we get to that point

yeah I mean that would be the only reason to CLA approved for the chip seal that's right that's so there's a technicality there and that in order to move forward with the zoning HTC has to approve first. So does the letter suffi? It's not a CFA at that point. Does that suffice to allow the other

not have anything to to say about the driveway surface? No, I'm saying as far as the process like like in order in order for me to pull a building permit on the house remodel we just did, we have to have a historic district approval first because we check that we're in the historic district. They're checking they're in the historic district in order to prove this letter will clarify. I mean, we've done similar things in in the past. Zoning is requested building permit. It turned out to be just a like for like replacement which we don't formally approve and we just send a notice that that things are okay with us basically.

We probably still want to give the COA though um sooner than later for that little for this little sliver right here. Um just because of the technicalities, right? Yeah. And we'll just Yeah. So, and we would come back and renew.

And I I mean, it's a I guess a debatable question, but it it's pretty clear that let's say if if we have a CFA request for the house, old lime in its lack of wisdom years ago said the historic district doesn't include the full property. It just goes back 300 ft. But it's pretty clear that if the house is partly within and partly without, we have jurisdiction over the whole house or you know the whole reoing or whatever it is that's requested.

So by analogy we would actually approve the entire driveway because new driveway ceiling and you're not going to change it anyway, but it's partly within and partly without. Yeah. I mean, we we we we wouldn't do just what you said here and then change it there. Exactly. So, it doesn't really matter, but Right. I think when we approve it, we would just approve the the driveway. Yeah. So, John, [clears throat] I have a question for I have a question also a comment. My question is when you apply to zoning, will you be applying for zoning approval of phase one and phase two or only phase one?

Phase one and two. one and two. Thank you. And my comment is about thinking back to the wall after you showed us the image of the of the way in which you had reconfigured or reconsidered the the the stone. Yes, that one. I was wondering just as this would impact cost, but it's also just an aesthetic comment. I wonder if you've considered um not installing wooden gates, either one of them, because they're not really needed, and because the the phase two um uh design doesn't really suggest a a farmyard and the and the lawn doesn't really suggest a farmard. So, what I'm asking is how would it look if there were no gate there and if the the the wall were actually perhaps closer to what a a natural stone wall, a field stone wall would look like. It would save money. The gates aren't they don't serve any purpose. They're just an aesthetic,

you know, design. They serve one important purpose. And so, if you just had an opening, a stone wall and then an opening through it, and the stone wall could perhaps be lower, which would I think maybe be more appealing. And also of course it cuts cost a little bit. Just just just a thought. That's a that's actually a really interesting thought. Um I think that the thinking was um too is that the the farm road would be maintained but kept but um but uh structure to keep you know most vehicle from from going down there but be available for emergency equipment. Um that's the access to the front of the museum with e gate. Yeah. The gate here was really all about safety. Yeah.

Um and we did have lots of lots of consideration. There were the progate anti-gate crowd. Um in the end we decided to do the gate but leave half of it open most of the time. Um we could close it off completely but the the fear was vehicles going down.

Yeah. And the whole the whole intent here is to make this a safer pedestrian access and get cars out of there. So that said, we also recognize that there would be times that we would need to have vehicular down there. So that's that's why the gate was was there. But Karen, to your point about the other gate uh and keeping the the stone wall lower, I think there's that's a really great idea. And the other only other comment I have about the stone wall is if you move to a more original or natural right look I'm all in favor of that but you have to be really careful because they're not that stable

right [laughter] frost heaves and you're in some kid climbing on the wall collapses on that's My main concern is having had a now off to college, but when my son was younger, he and he walked he saw he thought that was the playground. He didn't want that. Okay. So, signals clear. Yes. And just for the record confirmation that on the understanding we provide the letter and do the things we talked about you will officially withdraw this application for CFA.

Y that's just a letter right just a quick letter to you. Yeah. Okay. I mean I have experience with that already. So yes. [laughter] All right. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you everyone very much. Beautiful.

Um, next item on the agenda is uh a renewal of 38 Lime Street CFA. Arthur, do you have um any communications from David? Yes. Yes. Um he's he's been away. He's still working on the house. um mostly the septic system. That's the little piece that's being that that he's still actively working on and the the railings that we approved. So that's that's what the renewal would be for. Yeah.

Railings and the um the main thing for the house because there's that little piece that's still not quite finished. Basically, the house is done. You know, this how how long have I been on this commission? I you know, this is a project that I think pre predated that, but it started in 2018. Yes. Okay. Well, maybe I was on the commission before that.

I don't think so. Okay. Is there a motion to renew the CFA for 38 Lime Street? I'll make a motion. Russ moves. Is there a second? Deb seconds. Um, okay. The motion on the floor, Ed, is to approve a renewal of the 38 Lime Street Ca for the the railing. Is that a forever? Well, that was just my question. We're out of until we change our mind. Yeah. The the railings were were just uh approved a year ago. Yes.

So, this is the first renewal for the railings, step railings, but it's the the collaborators are going up maybe two every two weeks. [laughter] Winter's coming, too. I mean, do we have are we is that the only one we're renewing today? Is we should just renew the the original one, too. I think just he I mean, we're not going to make him stop doing anything. So, no, it just would be nice to I don't know that we have any leverage, but nice to nudge him along. Anyway, I understand he's been out of town and

well, I think he works on it as time permits. The septic system has been a major issue, right? Because there's wetlands back there and it has to be they can't fill in the wetlands. So, they have to engineer it around. You had to relocate as well as Wow. It's been a lot. I think way more than they anticipated at the beginning. So, okay. Further discussion on the motion. So, we actually are renewing Cas's plural. All in favor? I

I Deb is not here. Um, so the motion carries. Okay, folks. We're at 11:00 and there's still things to do. I know um Martha has to leave. Um I have to leave also

and Carolyn has to leave. Of the remaining items, uh the only one I really need reactions to, if you have them, has to do with the Amtrak request for information. I sent around that information before And um I don't know of any historic properties within the proposed right of way area of improvement. Um but if you do, let me know. And the core question is, do you agree with the proposal to respond generally to Amtrak saying, you know, would have jurisdiction over this particular project, but appreciate being on the list and um and also that was part one. And my other proposal was to to send this to uh or send a note to planning in case they have not received the information from Amtrak and uh tell them that we propose or that we will be suggesting that they place the planning commission on their distribution distribution list.

Yeah. Um, I haven't seen anything. We're planning some alternate on Oh, haven't seen anything come through. Okay. Um, so did Amra request that we review? I mean, I'm just they they give us the option to to review and the review is and comment has to do with all sorts of things. I mean it comments on historic properties that might be affected by their work in correct and connect erecting these safety safety fences. There may there may be no such fences that are erected in old lime. I don't know. But

sounds like they're going to put the same kind of fence as they have in Niantic along the right of way between the boardwalk and the residential property on the other side. Right. Um that's a tall fence. It is a tall fence and it's visible for a while, but again it's outside our district. Yeah,

it's a it's not officially in our district. be we comment on historic houses when asked to that was [clears throat] Griswell point for example but um I don't know of any historic houses that are within the lines or immediately adjacent to it that's what they requested information on but they also requested on please send us names of other entities that that may [clears throat] want to be kept apprised That's why I would suggest writing them and mentioning planning. I mean, you're an alternate. I Is this the sort of thing I would I would think it would be that planning might at least want to eyeball?

Yeah. I I would I hesitate on writing anything that pushes Amtrak away from us in terms of sharing information. It's like once once you get That would be my lead. I do too. we appreciate and want to be kept. No, but not just appreciate. I think I think that's the that's the oh well they appreciate it but they don't need it. So if we could state it in a way that you know thank you and here's our recommendation that you you know go to planning or whatever our recommend but take off the well I agree with

I mean bad choice of words but indicate we look forward to receiving future com communications about any other work that is proposing. You don't you don't want to get off their list. You want to stay on those list you know. Yeah, it's down the list. Not optional, but you know, obligatory as much as we can phrase it that way. This is going to be brief. Carolyn, if I may, maybe I'll share with you and and and Sure. Absolutely. Well, I'll just share a draft with anyone, but we we need to send something by the 23rd. So,

um, well, we can keep going if you want, but it's 11:03 and I don't know that anything else is essential. We keep we keep pushing realtor signs and demolition discussion uh, down the road. But, did we approve meeting minutes from last year? Yes. Before you No, that's a we did. Well, you have you're only going to have three. Um, I think we should probably adjourn. Everyone No, no, we have we have f but they have to leave now. I thought

Well, right. Uh, Carolyn needs to leave and Martha needs to to leave. So, I mean, we need to wrap things up. I suggest we defer the things that are not essential for discussing today until a future meeting. Why don't Ed let Ed and I just give a brief discussion very brief of what we learned at the meeting just and maybe we'll wrap it with that because uh and excuse me but uh Martha are you okay just submitting a written report that will be included in the minutes?

Yes, of course. Um I I actually just a last did have one question but go ahead. I just wanted to and we can discuss demolition guidelines later but one of the things that Ed and I learned is that if there is a structure in a national registered district which this is national registered. Yes. And Griswell Point is nationally registered. If that structure contributes to the national registration of that district, then any citizen has standing to uh prevent demolition of that structure. It's great.

The l the language says any person or organization including the commission can sue anyone to prevent the unreasonable destruction of historic structures and landmarks. Right. that and then they enumerate that's a state statute that applies to national registered area. So anything in district or Griswell County that and that house is clearly included as a contributing structure in the national designation. Is this statuto statuto? Yeah. If you can raise it in your the materials I I took it off the uh website.

Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Um

is is that verbatim the statute? Yeah. And so which just if you sue if you file a lawsuit, do you automatically prevent it or you have to This doesn't look like this does not look like statutory language. I But I assume this is a statutory reference. We can checkbook.

I mean, while we're on the topic, just in the back of your brains, we've got three things we could do. Any of the three or all of the three or two of the three as I see it, and you may have other ideas. One is to develop some demolition guidelines, not as perhaps as detailed as the signage guidelines. We have authority as was discussed with the fence today. Uh we are required to approve any demolition or removal of a historic structure. So we can you know if not stop things attach all sorts of conditions. But I think if somebody is contemplating a demolition, it would be helpful to have some guidelines about, you know, we, you know, if you come in, we want to know that you have first contacted Chipo and explored options for preservation or movement and

well, we saw how that worked with the children's center.

Exactly. Um the second thing that could be done is in addition to a historic district, the next section of the statute talks about a commission with jurisdiction over historic houses like CVA for historic houses even if they're not in a district. And that function can depending on what a se board of selectman wants if you're applying for that authority that can be a new commission or that work can be delegated to the historic district commission. So we have to think about whether we want to propose to have jurisdiction over not just properties in the historic district but over historic properties in town that are outside the district. And the third thing is um and I the preservation Connecticut has proposed a draft town ordinance to uh provide for more extensive jurisdiction uh over historic houses but without creating a separate new new commission. So, we have some options to

to explore. Um, and can I say off the record that this is off the record because it's just hearsay, but Mad Grizzle did come to my house the other day and said that the boys were not going to demolish because of the recommendation of I think preservation Connecticut. So, that I mean that's just what the father said. that doesn't reflect I haven't talked to the boys but anyway it's encouraging that's his information

the uh I guess the one the one the reason I wanted to at least bring this up was do we need is there any urgency to have us pass anything that would help stop a demolition process yes and and and do we need to pass something very quickly uh to do that whether it's this meeting or the next meeting. Yes. Not this. I don't think we're ready now. Got it. But the next meeting I suggest that John prepare some language or that together, right? You prepare some language for something that we can discuss and hopefully pass.

I agree 100%. And I think right now it's the state the the stuff that Ed and I discovered through the presentation. uh that there's state uh regulations that are in currently enforced along with whatever we have now that that would if if anything were to come up in the next 30 days, we we should bring that to the the property owner's attention if it were to happen in the next 30 days within the historic district.

Oh yeah. I mean and any again any before there's any demolition or removal of his property they have to have a CFA to to remove things. So if you get wind of something in the plan say need to submit an application to us. We we can put the brakes on tap the brakes even right now. Right. Okay. It it could include outdoor wings as well. Okay.

Um Okay. Hopefully we can get to some of these other things next meeting. Thanks to everybody. Uh thanks for your patience with me. It's a it's a Deanie did more things than you know. So a bit of a scramble today. So anyway, well, I'm here to help. So, [laughter] yes. So, I I will spend a couple minutes talking to Martha, but I will come up with a letter, draft letter, and share it for the

for the museum draft letter to and there. Is there a motion to adjurnn? Head move. So, move second. We have a second. All in favor? I thank you very much.