Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

All right, let's uh call the meeting to order at 9:01 and uh we have five regulars. Julie and David are here as well and Ed Martha is coming but okay a little late. Um any changes to the regular meeting minutes. And uh if if if not, do we need a motion to accept those?

I'll make a motion to accept the meeting minutes from September 8th. Yeah. And Carolyn seconds. Discussion. All in favor? I. Any opposed? Any abstaining? Unanimous. Um, public comment. Anyone in the in the in the peanut gallery have any comments? Okay. Um, and then the co-chair's report. Do you like to go first? No. I have a tagline for what you're reporting.

Okay. Well, I was just going to report that um Russ and I went out to Griswell Point uh whenever and talked to um uh somebody out there who was trying to come up with some solutions for an old house that they had inherited. And um although it's not in our jurisdiction, I think uh they were interested in talking to us because of our initial involvement in um nominating or supporting the nomination of the whole property for the national um uh his historic register. So, I just wanted to say that uh we we we uh had a good meeting and gave them some information on Shipo and Connecticut preservation people they could talk to as they continue to evaluate their options. So, but it did sort of reiterate to us the um uh the the the notion that was mentioned in the POC that the town of Olime does not have a demolition delay ordinance and that that might be something that could be considered.

So, I just future

and thank you both for for going. Um um I I just want to add a couple taglines. one is it's not in our jurisdiction uh in terms of approving a C of A. It is in our statutory jurisdiction because we do have statutory authority to cooperate with other organizations uh interested in historic preservation which is why we got the initial uh material about the Griswell Point District and it is within our jurisdiction to provide information to citizens in town about historic preservation. The other thing I wanted to mention is Martha had circulated a notice about a meeting I think hosted by Sabbrook. Um you recall that

uh concerning preservation of historic structures and you you did if if you or Deie or Russ have not yet sent that to whoever you met with. No, I have I have not. Nor. If one of you could do that, they might well be interested in it. Was it the 23rd or something like Yeah, I think so. I think it was the 23rd. I'll I'll send it around. I'm not in town on the 23rd, but if if somebody else is I can I can forward it. Well, I was going to say also if somebody from the commission attends

wants to attend it, it could be a useful source of information for us. And the other the other thing on this point is the state of Connecticut has a stat statute obviously that authorizes historic district commissions. It also has a statute that authorizes historic house commissions which have similar Ca functions for historic houses in town that are not part of the historic district commission. And in some towns this can be it is a separate commission. In other towns the historic district commission assumes the role also of a historic house commission.

Interesting. The um downside in terms of complete attention to historic renovation issues is that homeowners can opt out of the historic house commission. But that might be something we should give attention to as we're working on our demolition guidelines. I mean, we this issue was brought to mind because from early reports we were we were this close to losing a a truly historic house.

John, I have a question about that. Um, if somebody has a historic house designation and can they would if if they didn't want to abide by whatever the the HDC or other preservation organizations recommend, would they then lose their historic house designation or they can keep it but just opt out of? Well, it's it's similar to in the historic district commission. If they want to make changes to the historic house, including demolition, they have to come to the commission to seek a C of A. Uh,

and it's tough. It's tough from an insurance point of view. We don't need to pursue that. I was just I was an idea. Um, other things I had on my list briefly, the Did I I Are the minutes in here? Did uh Martha, did I give a update about the train last meeting? I did. Yeah. Did So, we're not going to hear anything more until December and a decision on funding for the Amtrak study

um next month. November 3rd is the town hall is occupied with election business as is Martha. So, um my hope is that folks would be available to shift the November meeting to November 10th and that way we can have Martha's assistance. Would that work? Okay. So, let's let's do that. Um, one other bit of news. I was um ran into Martha Shoemaker who introduced me to a woman named Elena who is a Yukon student here on an internship through March and is available to boards and commissions to help organize things, help create procedures. So, I just ask if you all can put your minds to work as at projects that um historic district could commission could use help with. That would be that would be great.

Martha, have you that sounds like someone who could help Martha? Yes, I that that was my that was one of the things I mentioned to Martha. Yeah. Yeah. I I have some some ideas for some Excel spreadsheets. Hopefully she will know Excel or he or she will know Excel. She Yeah, she Yeah, that would be nice. Um I'll I'll get the the contact information, Martha, and put you in touch and

Okay, that was a little bit about what projects might be good to work on. And um the last thing I would note in the co-chair's report is that today unfortunately is Dean's last meeting and um I don't know what to say. I think I think uh it's going to take at least two people to replace her. She's done a tremendous amount of work in in for the commission and in town and it's been it's been wonderful working with you. Absolutely. We do have

We do have a card. Yes. Oh, it's still out there at the end of the meeting. Oh, okay. We'll do that. Yeah, we'll do some something at the end of the meeting. Ed will be here that too. Thank you, John. I appreciate everybody's appreciate. I guess we're gonna save this to the end of the meeting and then don't so don't open. It's like Christmas. John, if you put the money,

so on to our meeting. Um, yeah, we're a little early, but Eric's here, so we might as well proceed.

Morning, everybody. Morning, Eric. [Music] Received five bids last week. um three of them that we're actively pursuing checking references but uh fall within our budget with going to concrete as we would like to do for the front apron um due the strength and reliability and and all of that. So I did submit the co uh coa in advance of the hopefully coming within budget. So with your guys uh sign off, that's what we'll be we'll be pursuing uh with the concrete and everything else will stay blacked up top as is. Nothing will change, you know, change there. So

So the concrete's going to cover the entire area out to the street.

No. So if if you were to go by there, as you can see in drawing, it's a it's a smaller section in front of the firehouse right now. There is a stamped asphalt little apron in front that those dimensions uh that doesn't go out to Lime Street. There's still black or asphalt from that point forward. So, the idea would be to match that exactly the same dimensions and there would be about probably 15 to 20 ft of black top asphalt that meets line, you know, makes that connection. So, this is just an area where when the trucks are out in front of the firehouse, they're parked on that. Um, this was redone I think 20 20 years ago or 25 and there there's a lot of, you know, where the trucks go in and out. So, the idea is this would save us from having that issue. And this is just concrete colored.

It'll just it'll be colored concrete because the staining is a lot more money. Um, it'll just be a brushed finish. Um, you know, vroom finish. Uh, you know, so it's rough, you know, rough, you know, people aren't slipping on it. Uh that's what's recommended from our public works director Ed Dante as well. He says, you know, staining it and it just causes more issues down the road with it flaking off and you know that sort of stuff. So his recommendation do it just concrete with a brush finish. It would be more reliable for us uh in the end than asphalt. A brick.

No, it'll just be like a sidewalk, you know, finish of a sidewalk basically. So that's all, you know, would change. So, um it would be that light gray uh color uh from the street surrounded by black but it's like it looks like brick now. Is that

Yeah. So, right now the color has faded off over the years. It was done as a freebie when they had it done 25 years ago. So, right now, if you really look at it, you can see that it looks like brick, you know, like a brick pattern. It probably looked nicer 25 years ago, but that has all worn off. So if you're just driving by to meet quickly, you don't really notice that that's but that's the area we would do just in that specific spot. Other discussion any comments from anyone in the audience? Is there a motion to I'll make a motion

approve the CFA as submitted with the stipulations that the concrete be unstained with a brush finish. I'll I'll make a motion to approve the proposed concrete uh pad for the fire department uh as a brushed concrete that's um I assume is a reinforced concrete. Yes. 6 in support to support the the trucks. Yeah. I'll second six with six in weep this in here, but that's good to have on the record. And Deb seconds. Deb seconded.

Uh Deb did. Yes. Uh all in favor? I. Any opposed? Any abstensions? Eric, thank you. Okay. Do you need me to come back after anything or this is we're all set? All right. Perfect. Thank you all for your time and your assistance. The uh the typical time period we stipulate is a year. Um, so it should be done before the first snowfall. No, not that. So, all right. All right. You got that time frame, right?

Um, Wendy, Elizabeth, Jacob here. Good morning. For the record, I'm George Fner from Felner Architects. I'm not Wendy Johnson. I think he's at a wedding so I'm here instead. So the project is at one rose lane and I'm here on behalf of Elizabeth Kaser and Jacob Russell who are here with us up. It's always nice to have a client with you so you don't handle it all alone. So the lot is at the corner of the north at the north edge of the historic district as you know this Boston road and one rose lane is the address my pointer. So here's rose and here's the access driveway. The yellow is the existing house and the garage and the orange brown section is the addition. So, um, this is in the RU R-40 zone. I'm going to walk you through the project. The purpose really for the project was to expand the kitchen. The existing kitchen is very small. So, it's going to be remodeled and expanded uh two feet out towards towards the road uh that's going towards the north. And to the right, we're expanding 4 foot8. in

this area and then an additional six feet in this area which gives it a nice open kitchen with a breakfast nook and it also reworks the entrance on the side instead of facing the driveway. One of the interesting parts of this house is that the the front of the house is facing Austin Post Road but the real functional front where people enter is in the back this side. So, uh, we wanted to somehow reorient anyone coming in to come in over here with this path in the back rather than being attracted to the kitchen entrance. So, in effect, those kinds of things were handled in this type of a scheme. The um addition itself is 158 square ft, so it's a rather small one-story edition. And there's also going to be a new deck which is 53 square feet. So you walk up a few steps deck and then the entrance into the into the kitchen area. There's also an existing hatch that is presently here and it'll be shifted out so that we can accommodate the addition a basement edge

basement hatch and I'll show you where I finishes. This this is just to go over that here. that hatch to visually block that. I'm going to expand the ornament on the grass plantings and then you'll see a photograph in a minute that will show you what you know what that looks like. But this is it really here, but you'll see a photograph of the house. So that'll be expanded to it'll be in front of the hatch so blocking it. In addition, the wood deck, it's a wood. It's going to be built out of wood. with a built-in bench. Let me get them to work. Yes.

And a new loose stone walk looks like this will be in this area here. So that's going to replace the concrete that's there. Now concrete blue with some flower beds landscape. As I mentioned, this is what the house looks like now. You can see the ornamental grasses. And um basically, you know, we went through a series of iterations to to determine what technical form this addition should have without in effect dominating or or overtaking the the house, which is a 1956 gape. So essentially the formality the integrity of that tape is going to be sustained as the primary vault and the addition serves as a secondary subservient role almost looking like it's a torch enclosed and that's how we detail it. You look at the plasters on the trim work on the ends. So it gives it that sort of a subtle feeling that it it looks like it was meant to be there and not just thrown on here as an as an addition. The uh roof will be continuation of the asphalt shingle roof just basically matching. I believe Wendy dropped off some samples she should have somewhere.

Yep.

And um siding will also match the existing facade of the house. the uh elevation. So here's here's the um north elevation which is facing Boston Post Road. So there's the bay window which is part of the dining area and then this is this is what you see in effect from the road on the east side which is facing the parking lot. Here's there's the addition and there's the existing house beyond. There'll be a wood fence that also matches what's there now. And then two wood posts like pillars that essentially say this is the entry pathway to the to the the main door which is in the back the south. This is the main door that I just mentioned. Here, here's the path coming along like this. And then the opposite west elevation uh looks like that. And you really won't see much the addition at all for the finishes. The I've mentioned they're going to match those now. Uh wood trim and dental molding as you see in these photographs of the existing house and garage. Um, you also have aluminum gutters and downspouts matching what's there. The windows will be Marvin Ultimate Wood double hung and hastement authentic divided light. And the door, the one door that's being added is a Marvin Ultimate wood and glass entry door. The U wood fence um which is this is what's there now. That's going to look like that. And then these what these are the the detailing for the those wood

posts that I mentioned blanking the entry to the pathway. And then finally the um broad iron um it railed for this new stair at the wood deck that again matches what's there along with the light fixture which will have a downcast light. So, and there's a lot of information, but I try to make it concise so you get a good flavor and understanding of what what we're proposing. A lot of thought went into it's a very small project, but still had a lot of decisions to be made. Yeah, it's really nice.

Thank you. and your colleague also gave a wonderful presentation last month and so we had a good uh overview coming in which is is always helpful chance to clear up questions then just picky things for my clarification what is powder coating on an iron finish it's just an iron just gives it a protective layer okay but it's still black black iron Okay. Excuse me. And you talked about fence fence posts or posts. Where are they? They these. Yeah.

Yes. So that I'll show you in here. It's right here. So here's here's the addition. Here's the wood deck. This is the blue stone pathway with the landscaping. And the two posts are right here. This is actually brick on the on the floor ground. That's not a wall or anything. You just walk right over that. And so the posts are fun just decorative or function. They're they're not they're not holding up anything, but they're basically a mark of entry.

So if you didn't have that there, it would be sort of ambiguous. Where do you where do you go? I see. So that was um and height height of those the height of those three feet. Any other questions or comments? the seller hatch that's a bill co and that's st it's going to be shifted that the hatch right yeah it's going to be moved because presently this dashed line is the edge of the existing wall okay here if you look at I can't even see it it's right behind here okay

but that's that's where the wall is since we're pushing out we have to expand out and relocate that opening so we're just basically shifting it out. So, it's moving 4 and 1/2 ft. Okay. That direction. So, the same It's the same half. Okay. Other comments? Any comments from anyone in the audience? There is there a motion concerning the CFA? I'll make a motion to approve it as presented. I second.

Further discussion. All in favor? I I opposed. Any abstensions? Motion carries. And thank you all for a very very thorough presentation. I think it's going to be great great product. As someone who's expanded their kitchen, you'll love it once we get through. Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks.

You believe Mary and and Bob Hi. Oh, I was just saying we're astounded we're running ahead of schedule. Glad I came early here. We may as well proceed.

So, our renovation project is complete. And um the reason we're here today is because we would like to install some fencing around the rear of our office building, around the HBAC units. um a very teeny portion of that fence that'll be visible from Lime Street just the one corner and on the I see that you've got my packet and the pictures are not in color but um there's a tiny cone that I orange cone that I put there so on the corner where you would see it um do you back onto the school

there's a sidewalk so That's a public way. So it's vis it's the statute says if it's visible from any public way. So it's not this Lime Street. It backs onto the to the other building behind it and the playground. Right. Right. Oh yeah. This fence would be behind the main building on Lime Street but in front of the other buildings there. So it's not all the way back by the middle school. No, I know that in the center of the property was visible from another. There might be there's a passageway there maybe. Anyway, yeah, parts of it's visible. So, good that you're here.

Okay, so I did bring one picture that's in color and the little orange cone. I don't know if you can see. Let me pass that around. That cone is the one is the corner of the fence. That's the portion that you right potentially see from there. What are they? Does the fence turn back to the house or does it it's going to go in a U shape just around the So it does it does the U-shape so it turns back to the It would go from this corner out over to that corner. Yeah, it's just enclosing that area. So it stays. Is one unit out further than the other or is it just the photo? No, they're both uh I mean

what? They're very close to each other. Yeah, it just looks like one is I think that there's a like an inch height difference between the two. Yeah. So, yeah, it would just be enclosing those two units to protect them and keep kids from climbing on them and all that and protect the visibility. Is there going to be a gate or something for maintenance on either side? It says it says there's going to be a gate on the side by the driveway by the parking lot which would be by the trash fence. the trash side. Okay, got it. And what's the design of the fence? The fencing would be board on board, which is similar to the fencing that we already have around the trash. So, it would match the It would match this.

It would match the fencing. It would be a 4 foot height instead of a sixoot height. Yeah. Oh, right. Right. It would be a fouroot height just to cover the height and the visibility of the AC units, but then stay below the windows. Okay. The trash fence is six feet to hide the visibility of the trash and recycle, right? And the same spacing and Yeah. Yeah. It's Yep. And then we hope to put some bushes and pretty landscaping. Yeah. So, is this the six foot fence that you're going to match? Is that

That's the style of fencing. It would just be a 4ft height. Yeah. Yes, it is. Cedar crime too. And then the ink berry shrubs. Okay. Other other questions, comments. There a motion to approve the CFA. Carolyn, I move we approve the CFA as submitted for the land use services bureau. Second. Seconds. Deb seconds. Any comments from the audience? All in favor?

I. Any opposed? Any abstensions? Thank you for your thorough presentation. Just a question, a couple questions before you. I I think I'm the one who prompted Martha to ask a question about the the fence and I was confused. The get the the it's not their fence. Oh, it's not theirs. No. Okay. So, it's the neighbors with the neighbors. Okay. So, we'll investigate that. Okay. We had a question about fence that turns out to be on your neighbors. Yes. Okay. Um,

I want to say too that this in the meeting of nostalgia, it's so nice to see the little lending library that we approved a few years ago. It is. It's very pretty. And the uh landscaping in that area has been managed by the Duck Garden. The Duck River Garden Club has taken us on as a municipal site to do the landscaping and gardening. Great. They love and everybody loves it's been beautiful. Yeah, it's really Little Free Library was a project of a Girl Scout troop, right?

Those girls are all now in college, but the Girl Scout leader also uh is a leader for her younger sister's troop and so they have adopted it and they come once a month. Someone's in charge for the month and organizes the books and cleans it up. So, it's really a nice project. Fantastic. The last thing I wanted to mention is do you ever have occasion to put out temporary signs? Occasionally when there's an event coming up, we have a one of those sandwich board on wheels things that we might put out. During the renovation we did, but that was just to direct people how to get find the main door, but it's not often.

Well, we we have um per our statute, we no differentiation between temporary, permanent sign to include temporary signs, which can be ownorous if somebody's got more than one event. So, we've devised a a procedure to have you come in or have any organization come in and sort of approve and advance a style location of temporary sites to make sure that that signals are are straight.

Uh we do I I we the town does at present have a problem with with sandwich board signs. They're not allowed under the zoning breaks. Okay. Are there examples of approved sign designs or Yeah. I mean, been struggling with it. The musical masterworks sign is a good one. Okay. because it's not a plastic, you know, it's sort of

So, for example, sometimes when we have events like Halloween is coming up and we do a kids Halloween activity in the back area and we normally like to put a sign that at least points people back there. So, if we were to do something like that, we'd like to we could make a permanent sign that we use every single year which is approved. So, we just have to plan for that ahead of time. So if there's that's what we're hoping will happen that people who have recurring events will like Phoebe, you know, the library has the book sales and I mean there's certain ones we all are familiar with. Yeah, if we have annual type things. I saw one this weekend at the Lamb Academy event parking with an arrow I saw it. I mean is that okay or not okay? No, it's a sandwich board.

It's a sandwich. Okay. the same kind of situation just trying to get people make it easy for the institutions but also fall within. Okay. Right.

Okay. And uh you know again our goal is not to be unduly bo burdensome but we have a statute to comply with and uh it it would be good to again just have a a a session since you're a nonprofit there's no fees. It's just the burden of coming in. There's quite a few nonprofits in the historic district and the executive directors, we meet regularly just to get together to talk about various issues. So, possibly we could organize some kind of meeting where someone could come and explain what what the new regulations are. Fantastic. Great idea. Sure. Okay.

I'd be happy to help set that up. We sent out last year, right? a notice about the the signage guidelines that summarize this, but these things go there. Sure. But I think a conversation with questions would be help, you know. Yeah. Okay. So, we can make that happen. Terrific. And then for us moving forward, so if we have specific signs that say certain things that we would use over the years, if we were to come up with a basically an image of each one of those for approval, then we'd be able to Okay. a frame, you know, kind of,

right, a frame with an interchangeable type thing or something. I mean, some of it's some of it's so basic it almost doesn't need to be said, but it does because, for example, one organization posted a a sign that over hung a sidewalk and posed a bit of a risk to to cyclist. And just sort of, you know, let's be clear about where this is going and what it's going to look like. That would be very helpful. Yeah. Yeah. No problem. Right. Thank you very much. Thanks.

Are you here for Erica? We're running ahead, but come on up. Good morning. Good morning. I'm Holden Block again and uh here on Erica's behalf. She couldn't make it today, but um talking about two items, the fence in the back of the garage and the um also the driveway apron. So, I did bring some plans for the uh

Yeah, why don't we uh take them one at a time and talk about the fence the fence first?

Yeah. So, the fence is planned to be entirely in the back of the garage, uh, six feet tall, and then it'll run just past the length of the back of the garage towards the middle of the house. And the idea is to make it the same cedar cladding as the garage itself so that it essentially blends in with the back of the garage. Um, so I have some elevations here as well. So from the the Maple Lane side, you would see, you know, this extension with a gate to get in for the um right here's the propane tank. So when they would come fill the propane tank, they'd need access here. This would also be the gate access to all the pool equipment, the HVAC, um anything else in that area. So it would completely shield all of the mechanicals back there.

But they're all going into the same same line, the pool and the HVAC. It's all in one. It's all there. Yeah. It's all in a a linear um behind the garage here. But that that wall actually sits two feet back from this wall. Yes. Set back. Yeah. You can see um maybe I'll help hold it. Yeah, everybody can see it. You can describe the location so everybody can see it. Yeah. So, this is this is the back of the garage facing the Duck River. And um or no, that's the

lieutenant lieutenant there. And um so the the area where the arrow is pointing is the Maple Lane side of the fence. What's that length? Is that 25 ft? Uh it's the length of the back of the garage. The it's scaled, but the uh the garage itself is 24 ft deep. So it would be about 28 ft. And the the reasoning for the jog is just to give that Hback a little bit more. Right. I was kind of curious why you extended this part.

Yeah. So, the HVAC pad sits right at the edge of the the garage. So, it would be nice just to give it room for people to work in there. And she, you know, wants to shield it from from the house site as well. So, that, you know, that's all just contained within that area. Is generator in there too? She is doing a generator plug, so there's no permanent backup generator. So, that would also be in that area. So, she could wheel the generator in there and run it behind the fence, which would be not a fixed,

which would be great. Um, because it would normally be stored in the garage and just wheel around. So now is there gaps between the the slats or is they're uh they're about a quarter inch gap between the slats. So okay, you know it gives enough for air movement but not for visibility. So it it literally reads it's the same siding. Yes. It would look like just an extension without a roof essentially. When you mention uh generator plug, do you mean a transfer switch? Yes. Yeah. It says fence slats to be the same material that's used on the garage.

There you go. And she Yeah. She has no plans to put a permanent generator in at this time. So, does the um does the finish of the of this of the sighting fade over time or does it because it would be more appropriate to the historic district if it were less obvious and obtrusive?

It's completely um unsealed. So, it will weather silver as time silver gray as time goes on. And um the yeah on the garage itself it's getting the same cap as the the roof of the house. So it'll be silver that kind of gray silver as well. So and and that's going to weather as well. The garage Yes. the garage and the fence will both weather together. They'll be the same um dian better cedar product. Will there be any plantings around this or

none planned at the moment? Um, but you know, I think none planned around the garage or around the fence. Uh, around the fence. There's an area in front of the garage that she plans to use eventually for garden or um she has plans for an espalier except, you know, it's down the road at this point. So she'll have to get approval for that, I think. Right. And will there be landscaping also along the front of the house that facing side?

They're currently uh as of last week are um blue hydrangeas across the whole front of the house. So it definitely hides the house a little more and softens the front front facade. But of course those are deciduous. So in the winter months there'll be nothing. There'll be nothing sort of what just just the sticks of the stems. Yeah.

So could I suggest that you might recommend to um to Erica that she consider something planting along the front of the house that would remain green during the winter to keep to maintain that softening effect. I can I can mention it to her. Yes. Um because as you know there's plenty of lawn there so I don't know if there was you know she could do some kind of tiered plantings. Um but I'll perhaps repeat the espalier as well on the the house. I'll I'll mention it. Great. That would be very nice on the garage and spell it perfectly.

Um, and just to get so we have it in the in the record, you got the height of the fence. It's 6 feet off the rear of the garage, but um, can we say not to exceed 28 feet in length? We can say that. I mean, would that be accurate? Yes. Okay.

I think so. Um, is there a motion to approve the fence uh that will cover the HVAC equipment, propane tank, and pool equipment as specified in the Well, I'm speaking I'll make the motion to approve that as submitted with the additional stipulation that the length of the fence not exceed 28T. How many feet? 28. 28 which is on the that's the drawing. It's on the drawing. It's just it's the length of the garage plus a little bit extra to accommodate need to work around the HVAC

and and that I think the align the setback here is important. So if we're stating it as the drawing there needs to be a statement I think in your motion that was per the plans. Maybe that's implied. Well, sure. I'm happy to to do that. I just didn't see the drawing in in Is that not in the submission material? Uh I think I have a copy of I think I submitted it electronically, but uh we can call this the official official. Okay. Plan. Yeah. Because I think the setback's important to maintain. Is there a second? I second. Seconds.

Further discussion. Any comments from the audience? Um, all in favor? I I Any opposed? Any abstensions? Um, motion carries. Thank you very much. Sure.

And now we move on to the driveway apron. So, the driveway apron, I was not here for the last meeting, but she um said that a suggestion for um a full Belgian block apron was made. And so she actually had um a few quotes made for that. And uh it was quite expensive. And so, um, to reduce the kind of budgetary hardship of that, we thought of a couple other ideas that, um, we wanted to bring to the table. And one was to do an asphalt apron, but chip seal it. Um, and then line the edges with um, so it would have a a curb of Belgian block up the edge of that apron. Instead of doing the full apron, it would be a chip seal to match the the topping of the rest of the driveway. And then Belgian blocks just to the fence line. So it would go to the um sidewalk just past the sidewalk up to the current line of the fence.

The present sidewalk is has been cracked from the construction. Yes. So the the plan is to um fix that when we It extends beyond the the driveway a little bit. Yes. the we'll I guess we'll have to go to the whatever expansion joint before the next you know piece that we've um broken. Uh but the plan is to to fix that as we go. It's it's town property, isn't it? That goes on the on the opposite side of the sidewalk.

It is. I believe it's town property, too. The just beyond the fence, actually. the fence is on the town property. Oh, as per the the uh survey. So, does the town replace since it's town property, does the town replace the sidewalk? I'm not sure how that work. I think that's a public works question because I think if we're the ones affecting it, I'm guessing that we're the ones who need to fix it. Um, unless there's an allowance of some sort by the town Yeah.

for repair when you're adding a driveway. I'm not sure. I I know that um Jeff Stevens pulled the um the driveway permit quite a while ago and got approval for location and um material based on what you guys approve. I think there's a lot of uni well I mean it's both uniform and and not really the side of the driveway aprons on this side of Lime Street because this side of street has the sidewalk

you know so a a lot of the aprons going right down to the from the sidewalk to the street are made of the same thing that the sidewalk is. Yes. They're concrete. Yeah. which we are also open to. There's that. And then you're proposing a chip seal kind of thing which is going to be on the other side too. I mean on the actual driveway. So it would be um I guess that's where the discussion happens because we right

we are responsible for from the road to the sidewalk and then from the sidewalk to um her property line and then you know beyond we plan to go transition to the double track um gravel driveway that we had discussed previously. So would that gravel match whatever covering is the chip seal? That was the idea. So that from the road all the way to the house would be the same material. And there are examples. I took a bunch of pictures. It doesn't matter. But there are some some driveways along here that are like that that have a sort of a chip seal. Not with the Belgian block.

I didn't see I don't think there's one of those. Okay. But but but with the chip seal apron down to the street that matches the chip seal other side of the side. So there's precedent for all these things really. Mhm. How is the chip seal the same as the gr the stone? I'm trying I'm confusing. So they use the as the um as they top it.

So you're doing chip seal all the way up on the two. So, no, you get to choose the topping for the chip seal. So, you get to choose whatever pie gravel you want to use to impregnate into the um oil. And so, you can extend that as a topping over the the um base for the rest of the driveway so that material can match. You don't have a drawing of this at this point. Uh, no. I submitted a photo of the chip seal. Um, and the the Belgian block on the curving is, you know,

unappeal to, you know, put it put it there instead of the whole apron. That line the whole driveway or is that just within the chips seal area? It would go to the fence line. It would not line the whole drive. The only place that has the actual Belgian block that goes right to the road has just been, you know, but there's no sidewalk street, right? At the formerly house, right? That's so that's not So it's concrete sidewalk chip seal from sidewalk to fence. The chip seal is finished in a stone that matches the stone that's going to be the two lanes from the

back to the house. will match the chip seals and stuff. So, the other way to do it would be concrete to the all the way to the fence lines to match the sidewalk and then go transition from there to stone as well. That's a little chip seal, right? That looks That looks a little commercial sidewalk, but but you're kind of sort of dressing it up a little bit. That's sail to the road. Piece of of Belgian lock. Yes. Just to line up to the Yeah.

It's the stone is pressed in to it. Thank you. Yeah. So your your CFA as written doesn't all for the Belgian block siding. No, I think but that's that's something you could do. It's something we could do for sure. The only you know, we'll there's a consideration of where that edging meets the sidewalk that I'm a bit unsure of because of, you know, you don't want to have a tripping hazard at the sidewalk. No, it would need to be set down to grade, I think, at that point,

right? But it would it would essentially just be an edging for the driveway. Just make it up, dress it up. Yeah. Okay. Any any further if that's what we want to do discussion? I have just one question. Yes. the uh you said that the uh this the property line was set back a little bit from um the fence. Yes. So I have concerns about maintaining that fence because it's kind of iconic for that. Yeah, it's a very iconic. Um does she accept responsibility for that?

I am not sure. I can't I don't know that I can speak on her behalf on that. I don't think the town is going to maintain it. No, that's the And she's, you know, she has to look at it, drive through it. Someone was working on it this weekend. That um Henning was sanding and painting his portion. Yeah. But not hers.

Um so I think that's her plan was to get the pieces back in place. Um, and we just have to find the right person to do that because they're quite brittle and very heavy. So, we have I think we have to get some substructure in there to support them because I don't know that they will on their own anymore. Um, the landscapers actually leaned one panel against the You'll notice this the fence from the corner to the driveway is off right now because they leaned one piece against it. and it cracked and fell over. So, um I think a a fence restoration is in order at the end of the project when you know we're done in and out with construction vehicles. Further discussion, comments from the audience. Is there a motion to approve the driveway apron as submitted? with the stipulation that between the road and sidewalk and between the sidewalk and the fence there be Belgian block sidings elevation elevated in a in a way in a manner to be safe for pedestrians

and filled it with chips. Uh well, yes, that's specified here that there's a chip seal. Does it say the chip seal matches the stone? It it says chip seal apron to match the material used to top the final driveway. Um John, can I just clarify something because I feel like there's a lot of different materials. There's going to be grass. There's going to be Belgium block. There's going to be chips seal. There's the sidewalk. There's the road. But I'm an offense. But I'm u I think you're lacking showing me or anyone else what it's really going to look like.

That's my concern because, you know, I'm trying to do where's the sidewalk, where's the road, where are you starting your chips, where are you starting your grass, where exactly is your Belgium block going to be. Mhm. I just need more information. Okay. Because the house itself is not historic. So I feel like this is the entry. This is pretty important. Mhm. So a drawing would be helpful, I think. So before we finally make a decision. Okay. And yeah, we can put a drawing together of specifications of

Okay. This this application is not dated or signed. Which one is that? This one, right? Yeah. Um Erica needs to sign this. She needs to sign it. Okay. So, yeah, she was out of town this weekend and Well, um you could hold it over to to to next week and um next month. next month to November, which is the 10th, by the way. I don't think because we obviously need we can't approve something that hasn't been signed. Sure. And get her to sign it and and request it um

a drawing be submitted it be submitted and and actually if this could be amended just for the record to include the reference to where exactly the Belgian block will be placed and the height issue that we talked about. Okay. Um, so we do have we do have time before there's action taken. So let's uh Okay, just hold that over. The next meeting is actually on November 10th instead of the 3 because of the election. Okay, that works. Okay, great. Thank you.

You got the the fence the fencing for the mechanicals is is approved. Okay, John, we also need to extend the other Ca original. Thank you. Yes, your original CFA uh year old expired few days ago. Okay,

there a motion to extend the uh CFA warrant. It was approved on October 7th last year, expiring on Wednesday. I'll make a motion to extend the CFA for 74 Street. We'll second. Uh discussion. All in favor? I. Any opposed? No abstensions. You're extended. You can keep it red.

Did you request an image of the chip steel? A chip seal in stone. In other words, not just a drawing, but do we want to see what the material that would be how it relates? Ask you if this is what it's going to look like. I think Erica sent I think Erica. Yeah. This is one at the m. Yeah. So, so in that presentation just a couple images shows the stone shows the the chip seal and the Belgian block. Okay. Concrete. There'll be concrete next to it which is so all those to your point all the materials coming together. How does it look? Yeah. Okay. Great. Sounds good. Thank you.

Thank you. The kitchen um 85 Lime Street. Anyone here? Um Joshua and Peter I think we're next. This is going to be an hour. You skipped Russ. Oh wait. Sorry. There's one other one for us.

You can come up. I wonder. I'm sitting there looking at I'm sitting there looking at Jill and going I need more coffee table. Is anyone here? Are are you here for the old lime in? No. No. Okay. Okay. So, uh, Russ and Joel are here, as I understand it, to just give an update about what they're thinking concerning their house repair and and redesign. So, we don't have today a formal CFA.

That's right. That's right. And this is David No with 360 Designs. He's working with us on our project.

Um, I'll just give a quick overview and I'll turn it over to David. U, I'm I'm Jill. Go with him. I haven't met you. Um, as many of you might be aware, we had a small fire at our house uh this summer and we're putting Humpty Dumpty back together again. And as we are doing that and kind of realizing the invasiveness of that project, we thought it would be a good idea to go ahead and move forward on a kitchen remodel that we've been planning for a long time. And the idea is that we would like to take the kitchen out of the main part of the house, which is currently in an unfortunate location. It blocks an old fireplace. It blocks an entrance to the living room, and pull it out and make a small addition off the L of the house. The L itself has a historic fireplace that we um restored several years ago. It's a big stone fireplace with a beehive oven. And originally we thought we'd put the kitchen in the L. Um, but once we had the fireplace restored and we realized how nice it was to have, you know, more of a visual access, we didn't want to cram a kitchen in there. So, we thought adding a small addition that would be uh representative of maybe a porch that would have been added at some time and and design it in such a way that it looks like we've enclosed that old porch uh made a lot of sense for the flow of the house. And then in terms of the design principles, we are picking up the design elements from another addition of the house which is the 1830 room right off the side of the main house that's adjacent to this and just be taking the architectural details around. So with that

Yeah. So I can kind of walk you through. Yeah. Um so the site plan here shows uh the new addition portion here. Could I request could you possibly move it closer? Yeah. Sorry. Wait. Do you want to put it here where I'm sure? Yeah, actually. Thank you. No, better. Yeah, but tilt. I don't need to see it. No, it better. Thank you.

So, yeah, this is the existing footprint of the house that comes around here. Our addition portion is in this location, which is in the back of the house. This is route one here. We're proposing a 300 foot addition here, which would include a kitchen and a mud room. And then off of an existing sitting area, it's a 46 square foot addition to make that room more usable. Um, and we'd have French doors going out to an existing patio. So, these are the two new spaces that we're proposing. Um, and then also that we'd have a buried propane tank out in the gardens, new gardens, uh, proposed and then a and a stone wall that wraps the driveway. Um, so a really nice, you know, planted area screening of the, uh, HVAC units and then a bode door here, which the plantings would help screen that as well.

Sorry, what was that last door? Uh, this one here. No, no, the BPO door. So, a basement access. Yeah, there's currently an access u but right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then this the intention here is all this planting would screen that. Right. Velco door and the HVAC units would have a screening fence type design and your entrance would be into the mud room.

Yep. So really right now when you come to the house it's a little ambiguous to where you go. The front doors way around around here, which is really not used on a daily basis. Um, in the 1830s room located here, has an entry, but it's not really obvious. It's not usable, especially with the garage being here. So, the idea is this mudroom entry piece is more utilitarian. Um, and as you park, you can walk up and come in, take your shoes off. So, it's much more functional. Um the way the house is actually used right now and this is a blown up floor plan. Um one portion I'll start over here. This is that 1830s room the older portion. The idea is to open up this existing case opening. Um and this is the existing kitchen. So this whole area becomes part of the house. Again right now it was very compartmentalized detached from the house. So, we've included this back into the home. And then this is that enlarged seating area. So, it's a really nice space with um French doors that go out into that patio. Now, as you go into that older section from 1700s, correct?

From the 1700s, this is that rebuilt fireplace, which is beautiful. Um, and we're proposing adding 10 foot six to the house. So, this is that addition portion with the new kitchen from the entry mud room. Um, so as you can see, this space becomes much more usable and functional. We think it it really helps kind of tie the house together. So you guys see elevations. So from an aesthetic standpoint, this is that north elevation. So these are the driveways. Right now, when you park here, it's a little ambiguous that this is the front door. Well, that's not the front door. This is the side door. The front door is all the way around the front there. So this is our new entry location. We're bringing this aesthetic across which is a flat roof with bed moldings and crowns and we would match that same profile and bring that um that same aesthetic to this portion of the house. The idea really is to make this feel like a enclosed screen porch. So like it had been there for a long time um having engaged columns and then this um three window kind of repetition which is very consistent. Sorry,

I didn't mean to cut you off, but so this is the addition. Yeah. So that's looking this way flat. Yep. Okay. So this this portion is the addition, right? And that's that that's this mud room here. So you're looking on that direction at that side elevation. This is all existing. So that's this portion of the house. And what is the where there's the three panels or windows? The is that like the screen right there? The one in the middle that I see like this is the bill code door. Okay. Okay.

We know we're going to make that more accurate for the next showing. Um but these are the windows in the kitchen and the counter heights right at at that window sill height. So when you're at the stove, you have a view out. When you're at the sink, you have a view out. But you know, we really worked hard to get this sort of repetition working well in the proportioning. Um, and then I'll show you. And this is that this is the bay further back. That sitting room with the new French doors coming off to this existing patio here. That's the east side. East view. This is Yes. East side. Yep. And this would be a copper roof um in keeping with the existing copper gutters and different accents that are already existing.

So this is now on the south side. So, we were looking this way on the east. That's that bump out. So, this would be the copper roof portion. And then coming out of the kitchen um eating area, we keep this same aesthetic. This is an existing door with a really nice kind of federal style um detailing. We would keep that same detailing on the new French doors to kind of tie the different architectures that are on the home into the additions. And that's basically where where we are. Um

Marvin windows with 5/8 simulated divided lights. Um dark sky light fixtures. Um painted wood clapboards. Everything would be wood obviously. Um the right now we're looking at these lantern style um light fixtures. So yeah, we're trying to keep it obviously tie everything together but keep it minimal as possible to accomplish what we needed. the part that's seen from the road. Of course, the front of the house, none of this is seen when you're looking straight on. You you see the front and then you see the the addition. There's a glancing view as you're coming uh towards town on on the road. You can see kind of the where the mud room is, the entrance.

Yeah. Right. And so we're tucking the trying to tuck the the Belco door and then AC units in that corner that's not visible from the road. Um and then on the other side, you don't see that at all from the It's really that little piece. Yeah. You kind of see that glancing view from Live Street as you drive down. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful comments. I heard a beautiful think you're gonna have to have a party when you're done. Yeah. HDC party.

Not that not that it has anything to do with us, but the idea that you're returning your the kitchen that you're now using to the flow of the house. Yeah. Really wonderful. It when you go in the house, that 1830 room we keep referring to has two arched openings. One still functioning, the other one was closed off. I have no idea why they chose to do that, but it really I think it's going to make a big difference to move that kitchen. And the the original kitchen was where the old fireplace was with a beehive oven. So, the idea is to

to put the kitchen back there, but but not really. And the modern part of the the old part of the kitchen will be there, but the modern part is the addition that we're doing. The usable part. Yeah. because you're able to maintain and keep that old section. Really? Exactly. Yeah. That's what we're trying to do. What's your what's your timetable? Best. Well, whatever.

Yeah. Whatever. Um we're we're coming back in November um to seek our CFA on this. Um but uh separately, our niece has decided to get married and she wants to get married in our yard in a year. Everybody's on a high alert notice that we need to get this done as quickly as possible. So, and I'll recuse myself in November obviously. So, we'll make that statement clear. Well, thank you for the update. It's it's always helpful just in case there are any questions or Yeah. concerns. Do you have any suggestions for next month or

No, I mean just in that you don't have to explain about the in the formal CFA as Russ knows about the internal flow because our concern is just exterior structure. Okay. Okay. We'll provide some images. I like that last presentation. Yeah. The photograph. So yes. Great.

Great. Thank you very much. Thank you. Joshua and Peter, we're we're one whole minute late. I'm no architect's office. Is it possible to connect to the screen here? You can figure it out. Okay.

You can sign into the meeting. Is the Is the meeting up and running? Is the meeting on? Press any button except for the power. Nobody connects. Oh, we have to reconnect it because if if we could get the meeting back up, then they could sign in and maybe share. Does it say just hit me? I mean, does it or maybe there's a there's a link there? just reference this button except for the panel the woman who's sleeping because this would be nice up and running. So yeah, I guess we there's a way that we can get the

No, I haven't seen any of that. There is an HDMI connection if you want to try to do that. Yeah, that's what that if we have an HDMI

maybe not for the Browns. outside. It was a last yesterday to call my daughter. Yeah. Wow, there you go. Works. See that? Amazing.

All right. Uh, as with the last uh presentation, this is not a CFA application, but just an introduction to to future plans and ideas. And thank you for thank you for for doing this. It's very very helpful to have this kind of preliminary discussion. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you for making time today. I don't know, Joshua, if you want to lead us off with introductions or

I would love to. So, I'm Joshua Campbell Torrance. I'm the executive director of the Florence Griswald Museum. We're delighted to be here today to um update the commission on some exciting plans for the future of the museum. Um and we're really very thrilled to be working with um both null and Conrad uh who have put together a really I think compelling plan and vision for our future. We've gone through a real deliberative planning process to get us to this point including all kinds of market analysis. Um a very comprehensive long range master plan. uh and we have spent many many hours with a board committee uh and with community stakeholders to get us to this this spot. So, as part of this process, we have spoken to many, many people in the community, and it's been a real iterative process. Uh, and we've enjoyed that uh, a great deal, and we're just absolutely thrilled to be able to give you this preview and get feedback and your thoughts and ideas and suggestions as we move forward. We're really appreciative that you've taken time to uh to meet with us and hear about our what we think is a compelling vision for the future of the institution.

Right.

Thank you. So I'm Conrad El and this is Mel Murphy. We're with Odinello Architecture. We're Boston based firm. Um Florence Griswell Museum brought us on in 2024 to be involved in the kind of reconceptualization of the master plan for Florence Grisswald. So we've been involved for about a year now. a little bit more than a year. Um we have developed a master plan and um sort of a a a strategy for moving forward that'll be broken into phases over many years. Um it looks like we're in position, you can speak better than I can, but it looks like we're in position to move forward with phase one, which is a a a more modest um piece of a of a a broader vision. We're going to share the full vision with you tonight or today. Um the plan is to submit uh for approvals the full vision uh in a month with um the zoning commission and we'll obviously probably go through a formal review with you at that point but wanted to at least meet with all the folks a month in advance give you know have informal conversations so we could get any feedback uh early on as we develop the final application. So with that I'm going to um walk you through a couple of things here if I can get this to work. Um, null, do you want to um walk us through the the kind of site strategy and then we can we can kind of go back and forth because I know you know the zoning pieces of it a little better than I do.

Sure. I mean this is kind of very um basic information but this is the Florence Grisswald um property which is that thick blue outline which is comprised of actually two zoning districts. The northern northeastern section is uh residential and the southeastern section is commercial. And I know that property was kind of split and then reagregated over time by the museum. Um we're focused on the residential kind of half of the site with our master plan. Um and then this is the as we understand it the um the extents of the historic district um which extends into the Florence Griswald site to include the Florence Grisswald house and the education center barn building. Uh there's other structures on the property that are not part of the kind of the district boundary and are not um also and Joshua can probably speak more eloquently to this than I, but in terms of what's listed on the historical register um the newer buildings and the Huntley Brown house um are not uh contributing assets to that listing. Um and then this is an aerial view looking across the property towards the Lieutenant River with the Florence Griswald House in the lower right hand corner. Um you can see the two barn buildings as you move across kind of up in the image. Then the Creable Gallery and beyond that is the Marshfield House which is where Cafe Flow is if you're familiar with uh visits here. Most of our work is focused I'm just going to stand up be easier um in in this area of the site and and making some renovations and additions to the Creable building. Um keeping the house and the barns as

they are uh and keeping also the Chadwick studio in its location. So, we're focused on kind of paving traffic circulation and kind of the visitor entry experience and how we can find ways to add gallery space to the museum building. This is Hudley Brown by the way here building which is I think currently staff space right

um this might be a little bit more intelligible. That's just a a site plan um with Lime Road down here, the Griswald House. Now you enter through a driveway that takes you right past the Creable Gallery into a parking lot and then you loop back on foot to um enter the gallery space um through this sunken entrance which is down sorry Josh a set of steps and and and a ramp um These are are two barn buildings that the museum uses. Um, one focused on education. Lots of school groups, summer camps use that space. The landscape center um is used by the garden club and is really open to the public in the nicer months of the year. The Huntley Brownhouse is now staff um although it's a very confusing building in terms of visitor arrival. Many people think that's the entrance and ticketing for the museum. in the Chadwick studio um is um a historic studio building that is from the era of the painters that painted on this property that visitors can also kind of view. um slide. Um we're looking at this work as being two phases as Conrad mentioned. Um and in the first phase, we're focused on starting to reroute traffic instead of bringing traffic through the center of the property, routing as much traffic as possible more directly to the parking lot. There's a lot of pedestrian movement between parking in the barns and throughout the property as you move from the Creable building where you get your ticket to the Florence Griswald House. So, one of the goals of the master plan and and phase one in particular start thinking about how we take the car out of that experience. Um

then in terms of the building addition, we do have more um zoomed in floor plans, but there's an existing porch on the back side of the Creel building. Um if you've visited, there's an outdoor terrace back here as well. We're planning to enclose that porch space and make it an interior gallery space. Um, and then there's a larger space here that's an extension of the collections um, in a volume on the south end of the building that will become an education center. Right now, there's really no space within the museum um, for a lecture or for a meeting of, you know, 50 or more people. And so, this affords that um, opportunity for programming. And it could also be a multi-purpose space that functions as a gallery depending on kind of the annual programming of the museum. Um, interestingly, I think that entry drive, the relocation, I think there was an old drive there, isn't it? Isn't that right? Yeah. So,

um, as we enclose that back porch space, right now there's doors in this opening that's nearer to you. They're closed and usually blacked out to keep the artwork protected um in the galleries. Um but we're planning along that series of galleries to punch new windows where we have better light control, shades um so that at many times of day we can create views between the interior of the building and the exterior. Um I probably jumps into the details of that kind of backing up in terms of conceptually the the largest goal of the project is to integrate the landscape which was really the environment the painters were in and recording and what is displayed in the artwork in the museum. Um link that with the gallery experience so that visitors know that they're not at just any museum but a museum where there's a connection between the artwork and the landscape in which it was produced. Um so we want to make that landscape more evident and part of the visitor experience. This is that um education multi-purpose space here showing it um as an exhibition space. Um but when it's not used for exhibitions there are um opportunities with technology and projection screens to have events and lectures and even music in this space. Um, this is outside the building with the Marshfield House to your left. And here to our right is that enclosed porch with the education space that we were just looking at an interior shot of here to the right. Um, and we want to keep the building, you know, lower than the ridge line of Marshfield and the Creable building. We just met last week with the Gateway Conservation Commission. I know they're very focused on the impression and the view of the building from the river and we're trying to be very modest

on this side of the building. Um, phase two is a bit more ambitious in its approach to the landscape and restoring kind of a pedestrian uh focused landscape in the center of the property. Um so in phase two we eliminate the driveway the existing driveway that takes you um right in front of the creel building entrance that goes away entirely. So all vehicular traffic would use the new entry drive at that stage. We do have to in address emergency access. So the existing driveway is going to be converted into something more um kind of in the realm of a farm lane. um something that feels like it's part of the landscape and then that fire line extends and kind of exit exits out um as reinforced turf. So, it's not a paved surface. Um and what that allows us to do is to create a pasture at the center of kind of the visitor experience. um to allow us to do that. The Huntley Brown House, which is the only existing structure that we plan to remove, um does get shown as being removed. Um that house is a historic house that was relocated onto this property and the plan is to ideally have it disassembled and relocated elsewhere offsite. Um, in terms of the architectural improvements and additions, um, we're really creating a new entrance in this phase two. So, all of this in blue is a new entrance with, um, ticketing, shop, support spaces like bathrooms and storage. Um, and that entrance is covered by a large roof which creates an

outdoor porch space for the public to use. Um, that could be just a space you pass through as you arrive at the building, but it could also support outdoor events, music, things of that nature. And it creates a nice relationship between this new lawn or pasture space and the building. Um, where there's a nice flow of movement between the two. Right now, you sort of walk down sort of almost into like a hole to get into the main entrance. So, this this plan proposes bringing the entrance up to the level of the what's what we're calling the pasture, but it's the big lawn out in front of the creel. Um, it's worth pointing out this tree. This is, I think, a seedling of the char oak. Yep. And so, this is, I think, a 50-y old tree. And so that celebrating that as well and bringing that to the foreground that this new really pedestrian friendly environment is is what what we'd like to do. We we really want to connect visitors to this cultural landscape that um was so important to the painters that painted on this site 100 years ago. And now with drop off, uh, with the proposal that you'd come in on the entry drive and drop off here, it's really everything from here over now becomes kind of a park-like setting that visitors can enjoy without having to worry about, you know, delivery trucks coming in or, you know, cars coming back and forth in and out of there. So, it's a it's a it's a massive transformation of the vis visitor experience to

to implement this plan.

600 people yesterday were very village. um not that's just sort of head counts at the front desks not necessarily or ticket counts I should say not necess probably was more like 900 to thousand people yesterday so our our thinking here is is really also about pedestrian safety and making sure that all the folks that come throughout the course of the year have a safe place to walk and transverse the property that um also puts them in that frame of mind and celebrates what's so special and wonderful about Old Lion, which is our natural landscape. So, we're pretty excited that it solves a pedestrian safety issue, but it's a real sim um return to this rural wonderful landscape.

Question. Uh, presently you walk down steps to get into the gallery and how will that be addressed in the new plan and how will handicap people be able to access that space? Perfect timing. Yeah.

Um, so this is an existing photograph looking towards the entrance that you're referring to, which is sunken down a series of steps. Parking is just off the page here to the left. So, if you if you arrive and park, you've got to walk down of a sloping uh pathway to the entrance and down either the steps or a ramp to access the building. Um, we're proposing bringing all of the grade up. So, all of this in here will come up. So, from parking to the entrance is a level surface. When you enter the building, there will be stairs and a lift for um accessibility to the gallery level.

It's about a 4 and 1/2 ft difference. It's not a full floor, but it Yeah, there is a that'll be negotiated inside as opposed to outside. So, you won't be walking down an icy slopey sloped uh walkway. It'll be all done inside.

Currently, from this uh scheme from where you get dropped off to where you actually get into the building is just under 50 feet. um the new proposal to cover under you know covered space um not fully inside but covered space is 60 ft. So we're we're curious about this. So we did a study of cultural institutions around New England to understand what's the average length that people have to walk and we actually are in right square in the medium. Um, for those keeping track at home, the longest distance in New England is Plymouth's Plantation. Um, if you're geeky like I am about museum stuff, 250 ft is their their walk. So, we we feel pretty good that we're 60 feet, but again, the key is you're not navigating that tricky grade, right? You're coming in at the same grade as your parking. And then again, just over o overemphasize perhaps, but you'll be amazed. Well, you're probably not because you're you all come and enjoy the museum as much as we do. How many of us have driven to parking and people are walking in the driveway?

Lots. Lots. Right. Joshua, just to clarify the the president access now when it's below grade, there is a ramp which provides handicap access. So that replaced by an elevator.

That's right. That's right. And again, our thinking uh emphasizing again our thinking which is we would rather have people navigate that grade change in a controlled indoor environment than in an outside environment, right? Um so we think that's a that is a win. And then this is this is a great image because of the rain that you see that is on the road. So, how many of you remember how many times our front lobby has flooded and this will take care of that condition because all that rain comes right down that ash fault and we've had significant flooding in the past um that we've had to deal with. I've I've spent a lot of time with Amy, our wonderful curator, with a wet backing him out carpet. So, hopefully we won't have to do that anymore uh with this scheme. So this is a view from a similar vantage point to that existing uh conditions view. The at this point we've driven into the property. The Florence Griswald house is just behind us to the right. To the left is the new entry drive that we're proposing. You just see the corner of it, but vehicles would would bend around to the left. Um and then straight ahead of us is the farm lane. So, we're trying to do in this image is one take that asphalt driveway out of the view um as you arrive on site. Um but we also want to kind of shelter a bit the pasture and the the PBLO gallery and the new addition from the Florence Grizz Wald House. So, the Florence GP Old House is still prominent and kind of the figure head from the street. Um we've introduced in a couple of places um these gates um these farm gates and there could be instances where this gate is fully open if you want um to

encourage a lot of people to use that method of kind of moving onto the site but typically I think we would have one one side closed one open so it's very clear that vehicles go left and signage would would assist with that that this is a pedestrian path Um maybe go to the next image, Conra. We can talk to it more. Is that your um fire lane so to speak? Yes. So in in an emergency, the gate would be fully open and a fire truck could traverse this lane.

You could also use it for you know when we have to do load in and load out of certain things. Uh you can imagine um prudently you can imagine I would say um you know the the lane or just Austin lane is used for food trucks. So Midsummer Festival where we have a lot of food trucks and all that that would access or permit that kind of usage. So those two uh tracks there is that chip seal. It is chip seal. Yes.

Okay. I mean, one thing I don't know, I don't know. I'm sure folks have an opinion about the Creable Gallery, which was designed in 2003, and it has the silo and it has the gables and all that. It's really a false history. And when you see it in the context of Florence Grisswald House, they're they're they're different architectures even though they're they're both in the traditional style. This project in our minds is really a landscape project more than anything. We and and I think there's something very exciting about a much more robust screening of landscape as you see it from Olro not not only in that it it kind of highlights or celebrates the Florence Grisswald House as the as the kind of crown jewel but it sort of is it delays that kind of element of surprise for visitors until they get to the drop off. The next slide is really where the drop off is. You would come in there'd be a farm gate. That's the pasture that you're you're um you know taking in that view of the pasture with Florence Griswald house to the right and the new entrance to the left. But it really takes Creable sort of out of play as you see it along Old Lime Street. It's more about you know the house the historic house and then this kind of surprise element of the the the pasture you get later as a visitor once you get out of your car and you start moving towards the museum.

Yeah. I think a big goal we keep saying landscape landscape. Um, as a national historic landmark, part of our designation comes from the fact that we are this very significant, very important cultural landscape. And yet, what we say to the visitors when they first come is they see a lot of concrete and ashalt. And it's the antithesis of saying to them, this is a really important landscape. Old lines are really important. It's it's natural beauty is what still draws people to here today. Certainly what drew the artists. And from our perspective, once they got past the wonderful historic house, then they saw a really cluttered landscape that didn't fit within that narrative of this is a really important cultural landscape, let alone the unsafe conditions of pedestrians walking through that landscape. So, this is this is really about positioning the landscape uh and putting that precedent back on this is a really important national historic landscape. So that's it. That's where we are at the moment.

That's very nice. In keeping with the um historic nature of the cultural landscape, have you I I'm interested in whether there is any alternative to the fence that you have pictured here. I mean the wall or whatever you would it be would you consider something that looks more like a historic stone wall? Yeah, that's a great So if you go this we have a new out ofate that version of the wall. We have a we have a um it's more a much more old line looking stone stone wall. John knows my passion. John and I have a passion for stone walls. We can probably kind of geek out on that truth be told. Um

you know, one of the great assets of old mine from my perspective as a cultural historian of course is stone walls. And so we've already again part of this iterative process and this kind of feedback reinforces that. So, we have a a a looser formed wall in the updated rendering. You know, your thoughts on what the gates could look like would be invaluable. Pete and I did do a a lunch tour of every single gate we could find in online. Maybe we took pictures and sent them off, but you all might have really great feedback and ideas around, you know, what would look well for a gate. Um, so yes. to answer the question.

Um, let me let me make a few a few comments. Thank you. I mean, this is this is very use. Thanks again for your time. Appreciate it.

Just so we're you you've accurately captured a picture of where the historic district stands. So, our jurisdiction um covers anything in that space. a shaded tan space that's that's visible from a public way which would include Lime Street obviously, but the river if there were something tucked behind let's say the barn, some new structure, but it was visible from the river. May may well not be. Um, just a footnote, it's so ridiculous to me to have parcels in the historic district. You can see the district actually bifurcates a building up above.

I think two years after the old lime historic district was was uh instituted in 1971, the state passed a statute saying any historic district has to include lots that are surveyed. But old line wasn't going to spend money on a survey. So they just said 300 feet back from the center of of of Lime Street. Um, our concern is with our our approval concern is with the permitting of excuse me, our approval concern is with uh exterior structures which is is broad. I mean obviously um uh buildings but anything attached to the ground that would include the the driveway if a portion of the reshaped driveway falls within that that

and it does. Yeah does. I think the new entry drive is certainly right in here. So it would be in your jurisdiction as would the gates.

I think one question we would have let me put it this way. We have not approved new driveways that are asphalt covered. Um, if you're resurfacing something, it's up to you. Um, this would be a continuation of an an asphalt. So, I'm not saying never never say never, but you might want to think about could you do a chip seal on top of asphalt for the whole entry, which perhaps would help um, you know, make it feel a bit more historic.

You think it's already chip? He thinks it's already chipped seal. It may may well be that um that we've proposed that, but we we'll make a note of that anyway. Um we we have um this is not really uh I I expect strictly part of the renovation process but um we have jurisdiction over signs are considered structures or alternatively if they're not attached to the ground they're considered advertising signs if they say anything that communicates a message. Um, and the statute does not distinguish between permanent or temporary signs. Um, to avoid a cumbersome uh process of coming in for approval of temporary signs. If you envision temporary signs to announce events, we should have a a session. I mean this again this this could be done and any time just to make sure signals are straight on types of signs, locations of signs. Um, we also, I mentioned this I think in a email to to to Joshua, have a number of other statutory authority, not approval, but giving recommendations, coordinating with other organizations interested in his history and historical structures. Um, if I think folks here would be particularly interested if you could spend a minute highlighting what you have in mind with respect to archive space and use of the the archives.

I if you have a a rendering uh if you could pull up the rendering, but I don't think I have it. I don't know if you have it on your but um you're talking about the research center. Yeah, I think and then uh in the meantime, can you pull up the just so I can show them in place? Yeah, I think we have plan here. Yes, that may be the old one. Oh, it is the old one. Y updated.

It isn't up. No, the the next one's the same. It's not updated. These are slightly outdated plans. But so as you know we have a really really wonderful um committee of dedicator volunteers and board members working in our archival collection working hand in hand with our uh crack curatorial team. And for those of you who have done that work you know that our current research center is

yes it's a little it's a little tight. Um, you may also be aware that we have um a really important and I think very significant regional if not statewide important collection of archival material that um is really key to our mission because oftentimes it's by doing research in those collections that will spark future exhibition ideas including the exhibition we did that we opened this past uh February. and ran through June their kinsed earth photographs of William and William. So it's a it's an important part of what we do. we have an important collection relating to the old line artist colony. And so um we kept you know sort of talking about this with our team and again as part of this real iterative process uh this I'll wait just a second. The suspense is building. Sorry. So, yeah, I think it's Yeah, there we go. So, we uh through some really great work by the the guys here, they figured out a way that we could make a slight adjustment to the education spinner and give us double the space for a new collection research center. um have to acknowledge that Carolyn has been

intimately involved working with these guys on ideas and has been part of the iterative process. So more or less what we're planning is 575 linear square feet of compact storage for archival collection which will be towards the the rear and then three new workspaces for the study of the collection. Uh so it's doubling the size of the research center. Now I think what makes it really exciting for for those of us who are so committed to local history is its connectivity to the education center and our flexible gallery. So we envision being able to take materials, taking uh items from collection storage and using this for conferences and seminars related to the study of our local shoreline uh Connecticut history. So that accessibility of all that being right there to public space. Um, we could envision having this space used for archival uh, exhibitions, but that connectivity and the idea that we have a flexible space right next door to the art study space is really exciting. This is the little door into the work study space. So, we're pretty here's the here's the rendering. This window is up for question. We're not sold on that. Um, we probably will eliminate the window as much as we like it just because of some concerns regarding the safety of the materials. Um, but you get the basic idea. We still have to work through our library collection. Our library collection is spread out in three or four different places. We have some work to do to make sure that we consolidate some of that material and and and um make sure that we're not having duplicate materials. Um, some of

that still has to be worked out, but this gives you a pretty solid understanding of our collection research center. And I I think it's really key and critical to how we move forward with our mission. It really is I like I've been saying to people, imagine it's the research and development wing of our business, right? This is where we do the the groundbreaking research that often leads to new exhibitions, right? Thank you.

So Joshua, just to clarify, it's possible that I still like the window, so it's possible that that a shade or something could protect the historic material and that would be great. But window aside, the library is not going to be continue to be housed in this in this space. Is that correct? It it's possible that we'll use this shelving system for library collections. We Amy and I have even had some discussion about is there any way this is new to don't don't worry null it's still

I'm just giving null a lot more work here. It's you know if she and I were just pondering could we could we extend contact storage this way and you give up some of the research space but you would have more space for compact storage of library material for example. That's still something that we're she and I are negotiating. We need to set up a conversation with a deal. One idea maybe I I don't know what you're envisioning in the in the drawers back beyond the end. Flat file. Sorry. Flat file.

Flat files. Yeah. I mean, I've seen at other museums u very attractive cabinets sort of set in that you pull out to essentially view many exhibitions. Yes. Or original documents or whatever. Um John, we probably just speaking about the archives, we probably need the flat storage more than we need to use the flat storage as an exhibition space. And I, you know, part of

part of the appeal of this, not to mention maybe the necessity of it for the work Joshua describes, which is so essential to what the museum does, is the research space. That's right. Compromising or reducing the research space takes takes away significantly from the purpose of the right

of this section. I mean, we have um you know, the the library the on one hand they're not widely used right now. You can make the argument because they're not as accessible. The flip side is many institutions are reducing their not their archival part of the library or their rare books but their library portion of it because most researchers they can get them pretty easily in the inner library loan or if there's a book that you really need you go to eBay and Amazon and you have it delivered to your house for half the cost of what it takes you to come to old mine. I'm not saying I happen to have a library collection myself, much to my wife's short grin because we move them all over the place. But the reality is in today's world, you know, um they're they're less necessary for for research in terms of people coming to a research center. I think the real emphasis here is access to our archival collection. And I think this is exciting because it opens up the possibility for community use of those archives in new and exciting ways that we just can't facilitate. Now, um the last thing I was going to mention is just about timeing timing of uh or sequencing of approval process. We've worked with different departments in town to get them to recognize and many of them have and put it on their documents that, you know, if you're going to need a historic district approval and then a building approval or historic district approval, then a zoning approval, this is stop one. And many of them, if you say, "Okay, we're ready to go ahead and build." and you want to get going and you go to the building department, they they should say, "Well, if it's in the historic district, bring us your approval, you know,

first." And I think we're we're pretty uh as flexible as we can be about uh timing. We meet monthly usually the first uh Monday morning each month except in uh November. I mean if it's an election day, the next day our November meeting is going to be November 12th. We do not meet in August. 10th. I thought

I'm sorry, the 10th. Yeah. Instead of the 3. um we don't meet in in August if if it's a it's a big project. We we have in the past scheduled special meetings, you know, if there's a real uh emergency, we can could can do that. Um but do kind of work backwards if you're going to need approval from different uh it's it's pulling the thread on that a little bit. We've talked with Eric now about submitting on November 3rd, which is a week prior to their November hearing. Yes.

And then our application is received at their November hearing. It's not heard. It's just received and then we're heard for the first time in December. He's recommended that we submit the same application to Gateway even though they have a statutory, you know, obligation to give that application to Gateway. He said just get it off to them right away. Same time they submit to me. We can do the same thing with you guys at that time. I don't know that probably is not enough time for you to review it to be discussing it formally with you on the 10th. I would assume it's not enough time. We need to get an application 10 days ahead of time because we need to

get a legal advertisement in and schedule a public hearing. But if you know end of end of October is feasible for you to submit a certificate of application u form with supporting documentations and diagrams. Yeah, I guess it doesn't hurt to begin discussion with you as soon as we can. And I think that's doable on our end.

And if if it's if it's something if you did come in in November and it's something we couldn't handle all at that time, we have 60 days from 60 or 65 days, I can't remember, from receipt of an application to act on it. So it would, you know, could carry over to uh December, but we don't we don't have the same process with zoning that you submit something the next month. No, we'll I think we'll try to target getting something you in advance of your November 10th meeting, you know, the 10 days prior.

This has been extremely helpful. No, this is a good pri I had two non commission comments for you just to share. um because it's the building really is outside of our jurisdiction. But one of the things that struck me is that we have two structures now, two modern structures overlapping, right? And is it possible to soften the structure behind the new structure so that that you really re you read the landscape, the new horizontal lines and and just for consideration. I mean, um, so you're talking about the three gable ended.

Yeah. I mean, even the color, you know, I No, we So, we actually did a color study. Oh, did you? Okay. Um, where we suggested different colors for those three peaks, right? Um, we even, you know, said, "What would what would a cost look like if we eliminated those peaks?" And as you probably wouldn't be surprised, that was cost prohibitive. Um so we're employing the use of new

there trees to help screen that and then we for cost considerations part but also the color study it the white at least in this scheme helped it fade out when you painted it gray or black it actually the colors but deliberately this new porch element has pulled 15 more feet forward to create that zone for the landscaping to kind of make it feel like for visitors that you're in the landscape. You're not against another building or there's not multiple architectures that are kind of stacking up, right? So, that was that was a deliberate consideration.

That was the one that was the one kind of just gut feel. The other the other general comment, again, not HDC, but in your large room, consider an acoustic plaster type ceiling. You have some experience. I'm just saying, you know, we have those. We have that in this. Great. Right. When you see a big room like that and even this room, it's very lively room.

You had the glass and Yeah. I mean, just back to the I mean, part of our scheme here, and this is with great a great deal of respect for so many people who worked so hard back in 2002 and three to bring the CEO Gallery on board, and it was it was really wonderful. We just feel, you know, we we wanted this this this new addition to soften that facade so that, as Conrad said, the Grisswald House takes precedent. that the Grisswald house and the landscape of it. That's why we're here. That's the national landmark status. That's what gives us our street credit, if you will, which is a crude way of saying it. So, what the problem is when you come on to the campus now and you see all those different shapes and forms, it it is really really confusing to the visitor. I've had people, it's funny, you said silos. I've had people come to me and say, "What's the what's up with the castle? Am I am I going to tourist?" I mean it's it was great for the time and really you know successful in some regards but in retrospect now where our emphasis is really on that visitor experience we just wanted to declutter that that view

is that the covered walkway that you mentioned earlier. Yeah. So path is the porch and the porch took inspiration from the artist sitting on the front porch on the side. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On the side porch, right? Although they did have performances and they did things at the front porch, too. And that's could happen there now. Yeah. So that Yeah. Here. So this half is all open air. Okay. We can fit 120 people for in for an event under covered space. That' be great.

I imagine that this would be the go-to place other than Cafe Flow. This would be the go-to place for community members to come and have a cup of coffee or if it's the afternoon, you may be like me and want a chocolate chip cookie. Um, and so people a new space for the community to gather and socialize. That was really important because one of the great beauties of the Florence Griswald Museum is its sense of community and what it does for this community. So, a new community space, but you can also imagine a jazz band or a theatrical performance happening undercover and we have this brand new performance p you know this pasture. I can just see it now people sitting out there with their blankets and maybe their picnic uh dinner watching a hearing or watching some some music. So, it gives us great flexibility. maybe our annual meeting now takes place uh under the porch and then the converse or um in addition to that should say this half is glass and the whole intent is make it really obvious where people are to go. So John, you mentioned signage. Our goal is to do this in such a way that we won't need a lot of signage, right? If we do this right, and we think we are doing it right, people will intuitively know where to go and not have to clutter up this historic landscape with a lot of signage. You know, our current signage was useful for a time, but honestly, I think it confuses more people than it helps people now. this scheme with this underglass. You'll I we feel pretty confident visitors will know where to go, right? So, this half is shot. That half is our new lobby and front desk and ticketing.

Where do you get the coffee and the cookie? Oh, so uh All right. So, here's the idea. See if you see if it resonates. Um we know the artists walk the the property and want to align with our carts. So, we're intending to take cart cart, an art cart, could be the art cart cafe or art cart something, but essentially take an art cart and it's, you know, coffee service. It's it's, you know, maybe geared to cold soda, cookie, scone, you know, it's not cafe flow with seated. Could be a seeds in a little type of cover there. You could bring it out.

This this half just because I know you guys appreciate this. This is storage, right? So, plenty of outdoor storage uh space for, you know, the the cafe or for the cart, but also for tables and chairs. And that pasture stays natural. The other side is the lawn is cotton. Is that right? Yeah. When when Josh was talking about the people sitting on the lawn, I was I was thinking to myself, you know, it will be nice to let that grow up and be a field, be a farm field. And I think there'll be times of year when you'll mow it down. mow it down and then those might be the times you do let people congregate on it.

We've also talked about mowing paths instead of a fixed path and maybe displaying sculpture in this field so that you could kind of walk through the path and we fairy village. We fairy. Yeah, that too. Yeah. Yeah. David R is excited. We've just given him a whole new set of real estate for we village. Don't tell my sheep. They'll be over there. Hey They may need to they would love that. They may need to come to summer camp. There you go.

Have a I have I just have three very quick comments before we move on. One is for phase one. We were just talking about softening the facades and the west facade which is going to be the first that will be developed. the the materials and the solid space in between the glass are pretty stark um and not to my view not very aesthetically appealing and also not very historically consistent with other fabrics. So I just want to recommend that if that's what you decide to go with that you soften it with um with planters perhaps you know permanent planters where you could have something espalade or where you could have some you know year round green like boxwood or something. So I I think that would help soften that facade.

That's a great great great feedback and um certainly it's something that the the team will will consider potentially incorporate. One thing I do want to assure you in terms of the materiality of the project. All of this material is Alaskan yellow scener and it will we we picked it because it's virtually maintenancefree. Very very very durable. It will weather to a very nice gray. Perfect. And within probably what 18 to 24 months, maybe a little long.

Yeah, it depends a little bit on the exposure. But yeah, that the idea was natural introducing natural wood to this kind of conglomerate of Marshfield and Creeper, which is super white now, will help soften it just by virtue of the m the color. But it's it's a it's a good point. I mean, we I don't know that we're fully I mean, we probably are fully set on the way detail that

Yeah. And then, you know, just as a reference, because it's it's interesting to see precedents, but if you Google the Fog Museum at Harvard, their new addition was clad and Alaskan yellow scener. And it looks you wouldn't you can't even tell that it's wood, but you can tell that it's got some materiality to it. And it looks it really see the wood grain. I mean, it's it's different than painting something. And the gray will actually marry with the building behind because of the roof. And in other words, that gray and the the metal roof behind it'll bring the the two together. Yeah. Yeah.

The second thought is for this is for phase two. So, you know, this is way down the line, but I mentioned before the wall in the uh separating the parking lot from the what you're calling the pasture, but the heartscape all through that section doesn't seem to be consistent with the historical nature or of of much of the rest of the of the landscape that you're proposing. So, I recommend that you think whether you know looking at this whether there's any other material that you could use for that. I think that's going to be the the the drop off platform and the wall just to think about it. Um so underneath here is going to be Connecticut granite. We've we've picked out and sourced Connecticut granite.

It's like it's called Liberty Granite. Liberty granite from Connecticut. It's sort locally source granite.

So all natural to the best of ability materials. There is a small section where we're using uh aggregate concrete if I said that correctly. It's a concrete but mixed with aggre with aggregate. And in our case, the aggregate will be a Liberty granite, fresh Liberty granite. So, it'll have a materiality that's very familiar to um to to the environs. Um but there, you know, we we needed to do some hardscaping close by and we're we're picking materials to the best of our ability that are Connecticut based that blend into the to the landscape.

Yeah. I want I want to say this path and we'll get it right in our application so you know you know but I want to say this is stabilized stone dust in one direction but where we had the hight traffic uh walkway towards the entrance that's the the seated aggregate concrete that um is is a better a better surface for for ADA accessibility and and you know elderly folks coming this the wall though is different And and I wish we had the the later rendering. We could share that with you as well. It's it's more of a kind of rubble stone like a field stone wall that you would see.

So it won't look like the concrete ashalt that you see now. Right now it's just pure concrete with no aggregate in it. It'll look sort of it will look like a a path, but it will be you won't have all the movement that is associated with it. Just just for the record, I mean are the comments you're hearing about the stone wall or not this the comments about the driveway or sort of comments I guess you could take as coming from Yeah. No, we understand this is just us, you know, they're all part of the same links. Well, you have a stone wall out front, right? That's right. So, that would be a good one.

Do we have a field? It's more the lands will be tougher with the farm. I think it's got the stone wall as you're heading in to the left. There's in front of the an existing I thought in front of the museum. There's more in front of Oh, and in front of That's right. That's I mean that that I would look at that and that's that's not really um historic either that the low snow wall that's nice but it's not it's not the one in the one in front of Pamel's and ours and yours is Yeah. is is is the original. Yeah.

You can tell because the stones keep falling off. jump to a last thing. We're running out of time, I know, but for phase two, we're going to be talking in the in the commission about um demolition of historic houses. And since Huntley Brown is a historic house, it is, you know, even though it's not it it was moved to this property, we have that that a similar example to that just last week where historic house moved to a property was being considered for demolition. So, it's something that you'll want to think ahead if you can't get it removed or even if you intend to get it removed and and replaced, which would be great because then it wouldn't have to be demolished. Um, that's just something to to to think about as you move toward phase two.

Oh, and one last thing, sorry, this this is this is something that the commission hasn't quite taken on yet, but we're working on it, and that is lighting and thinking of a dark sky principle. Yeah. and and of course the back you're you know on Lieutenant River so light going that way but also light coming towards the district as well. Yeah, we spoke with the we had an informal meeting with Gateway as well and they brought like fast so we we're certainly sensitive to that. Yeah. Great. Thank you for your time. Um so we'll you'll I guess you'll hear from us in a few weeks. We'll we'll be submitting a packet and look forward to talking to you again in I guess in November.

And never lose the opportunity to remind folks that many hands make great dreams become a reality. And if you're so inclined to contribute to this novel project or know people that we should speak to, we would appreciate any ideas and suggestions. I'm sorry. public comment. Uh, it's not a it's not a

it's not a public hearing, but we're not that formal. So, I'm sure offer you [Music] um and I was fortunate enough to grow up in Farmington where history rolls. Um, and very involved in that town as a youth and we continue that throughout my life. Um, I was not able to find the residential section of any construction in this town as a flowchart, but there's nothing that I could find this book

that I missed what you said at the end. You couldn't find a flowchart.

The steps that you take to go through from beginning to end was all count. that doesn't seem to clear on a project like this. And the only reason I raise it, and you brought up some very good points, is that the Florence Griswell Museum is able to have approvals either run simultaneously, whether it's Gateway or whether it's this commission or whether it's zoning and then are over that. They don't have to be they don't have to go back and get approval for something that happens because a section of the public decides have a reaction to this meeting listening on their own. So, probably, but you brought that up, John, which was great. Is that is this going to run? Are these going to run to tandem? Is the historical um commissioner run in tandem with the other applications and then yours is finished or are you going to approve this in sections and then you get to come back in?

Well, I mean as it stands now each each department or commission has a separate jurisdiction. So it needs to be done if you will seratum. Um, and as I mentioned, the historic district commission approval comes comes first, but I think you have an excellent suggestion that I will bring up with with Eric Nap, the land land use planner about making accessible on the on the website some kind of flowchart. We we have had meetings uh although the last one was probably a couple years ago with different boards and commissions represented talking about possible ways to build coordination. Uh so

I was just concerned because um zoning was is Eric is a very um involved with you know rewriting some of the zoning as you all know. Um Jane Marsh is up for reelection and um in the oral history of the town which was about a year ago I guess James one of her focuses was to talk about maintaining oral culture of this town but bringing it to the to the time we're living in now and that and respecting that and that's what this commission stands for. But they're just we want to make sure this this project which is quite special

um is going to be a real duel in the crown act and that it being not anything that gets um against because there seems to be a political mindset that didn't Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much. All right. We uh end up a few minutes later, but not too bad.

Martha, can you briefly do the secretar's report? Sure. Um, one thing we need to do is to approve the meeting schedule for 2026 so that I can file it. Let me turn to that page in your packet. Then you would see the difficulty with with this. I think it's wise to put the second Monday on for November. Yeah. Um, is there any discussion about the meeting schedule?

There a motion to approve it. I'll make a motion to approve the meeting schedule for 2026. Is there a second? I'll second it. De moves. Russ seconds. Um, Carolyn stepped away, but I think we're okay to vote. All in favor? I I oppose. None. I'm staining none. It's approved. Great. Okay. Um, we are, uh, monitoring 17 situations, which is down from 24 last month, which is progress.

Excuse me a sec. we without you approved the meeting schedule for next year.

Um okay so 17 uh starting with Rose Lane which we just heard their presentation uh and then the one one Lime Street uh their renovations for the porch and their foundations expire uh June of next year. uh Six Line Street. I have been in touch with Elizabeth Fowler. Um we'll we will put that on the agenda for November because she um isn't sure she wants to replace the rest of the fence that they took down. Um so if she's going to leave that removed, that needs to be approved or else she has to put it back,

right? Um, and then, uh, 32 Lime Street, we have a like forl like forum to replace the doors on the sun room. Uh, 36 Lime Street for the temporary railings. Um, I sent uh Joselyn Zallinger a letter. I haven't heard anything back from her. The CFA for the temporary railing by the front door, they're just wooden

railings, has expired. So, they either need to be removed or she needs to apply for the CFA to have them approved as permanent or if she wants to change them, you know. So, I explained all that to her, but I haven't heard anything. So, I will follow up with that again. um 38 Lime Street, their uh renovations are continuing and that CFA expires next month, so they'll be on the agenda. Um the center school front door walkway, I think that looks like it's done.

I had a question. center school. Um, when they were here with their presentation, they brought this very thick bulletproof glass that they said was going to be side lightss to the door. There are no side lights. I also had a question from somebody in the community about glass on the the door. U top transom. trans that they had. So there's a question whether there was glass in a transom also. I thought that I thought it was I think we didn't I think the door as it now exists we didn't approve. Right.

We approved something different. They came in to ask for a revision to the door. Right. But I draw included the sidelight. So you came with the physical glass. Yes, you're right. They they had to change the original door because of ADA requirements. The original door was two pieces with the centered thing and so they changed it to one, but um they should have done what was approved and not changed it. Not changed the side the side glass in. Yeah. Or the design. Yeah. Okay. Agree. I'll look into that.

Yeah. You could check with them. Yep. And check about the transient glass as well if if that was in the I I just don't remember if that was in the original approval. Um it was definitely in the revised approval. Maybe it was just transom and maybe they got rid of the sidelights. Yes, I think so. I can't remember. But that's part of the feel of when you close something off, it's less accessible. And so the whole idea was to have the glass to have to maintain an openness even though it was safety and doesn't thick glass. So it changes the feel.

If you could ask them and and uh supposed to be explosion proof or something. If if they haven't complied, it pro it may be worth sending a letter just to get something in the in the record. Yeah, I'll have to stop over and look at that. Okay. Yeah, definitely. Um 59 Lime Street, the Lysb fence. That was on the agenda today. Um the uh the storefronts are getting their glass replaced. So hopefully it's life for life the way they said it was going to be. What is the number of that? Hard to tell. Seems like pretty good. Did they change the scale of the glass?

Yeah, I can show you the picture. What is What is the address? 64 and 68 Lime Street. There were seem to be larger pains undivided. Yeah. I I don't think it looks the same. 64 and 68. 68. Have they put the Mull? Maybe they haven't put Mullions in yet. Here are the photographs. The original. Anybody wants to see them? Sorts of them. Everybody gets them. Yeah. with pain. Follow up. Yes. Oh, so they are the same.

Yeah, good. They're not thermal though. He made a point of wanting to preserve the heat. But it's quarter inch glass, not thermal glass. I mean, these are just over over time just different. Mhm. They rebuilt I mean they were going to rebuild all the They did which they did. It's great. And where there was that very helpful steel post uh round post. Yes. They brought the sections together. And then they um routed out from the post from a 2-in round I think to fit in there.

Oh. So it looks like what it was, but they removed that. But this this is the current glass layout. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I I driving by, I just took a quick glance and it it looked good. You really have to walk it to notice all these things. We're going to have to have a followup uh review. Walk and see. Yeah. Okay. On the and we also have to think about what what are the consequences if the final result is not identical to what we approved. Then what do we have any recourse because

well and that and the comment here goes back to the the wet the the little tile gathering where it moved. We had to push back and then it came forward because of wetlands and it didn't come back to us. It's like once we approve it, it's not only the construction, but also as it makes its way through the process and and I love the point that this flow grizz project though our part is pretty small,

you know, but we it would be a great project to instigate a process to fall through the committee. ities through the design, you know, maybe the f maybe we request the the final design drawings and then we have a follow-up site visit. Maybe it's part of our process on major projects like Erica's project. Should we not go out and and and double check double check everything and double check once she moves the building forward toward the street? What does it and does that change right the impression? But just our own our own process on on this followup

and to let them know I mean let them know at the outset that we're going to do some site visits along the way just to make sure it's going as we can go maybe in our on our as we finally resolve revise our website. Yes, as part of the process. I think we should include that. It's a very good point. John, do we have any inforcement procedure or or yeah procedure in place? Can we fine people if they are not compliant? You have to go to court toction. We have the budget to do right. I mean what what happens realistically is you try to cajul people

and then Eric Knap has been helpful in going out and talking face to face. some of the violations, for example, the old lime ins sign on the fence is a zoning violation as well as not in compliance with our guidelines. So, Eric will go talk to them and he has procedures short of bringing a court case to uh you know, issue cease and desist letters and that sort of thing. We don't we don't we have to rely on you then we have to get local law enforcement to say we get a cease to assist.

I mean the other the only other thought is to have some way and and in a way having Martha's secretar's report serves this public notice function. My thought as we get into approving in advance realtor signs and and temporary signs for various organizations as we could list in our minutes or on the website the following organizations have have appeared and are in compliance with our guidelines about temporary signs. And then, you know, you got some that are all listed.

Oh, that are listed. Well, you I mean, I guess you could do it either way. You can't you can't uh you can't record anything in the land records. That's That's Oh, right. about a violation. Wow. But it it does turn into a a a an issue that can come up on the sale of property. We faced that with uh who whoever across the street. Yeah. Across the across the street. And they were trying to

sell their property and they had done something that just didn't comply with our conditions. And before they could sell the property, they had to they had to correct it. Well, an Anne Brown when she was CEO, she got Enoch Patterson to remove a deck that he had put up without whole deck that they tried to reapply for. I mean, recently, but you know that he had built it in terms in terms of people coming in after they have done work and saying, "Well, I've done the work. Please, please approve me." I mean, my general take, as harsh as it may sound,

I I don't think you get a break for for violating the law and not coming in, you know, if if we should continue to ask forgiveness. I still remember right one of the early minutes went back and looked for some reason at the early days of the HDC minutes and there was a case where somebody had built something and then came into the to the HDC and on the record they they did approve it but they just gave him a chewing out if this ever happens again you know you're not we will shun you exactly you'll have to wear a special It's a carrot and a stick. We work with

more carrots on the market and it's they walk away. Anyway, other other bits in your report. Me too. 70 Lime Street like for like roof repair replacement, small roof there. Uh 72 Lime Street, their shed. Uh I don't I don't know if that's been they put that in yet or not. No. Uh 74 Lime Street, which we just finished talking about. Uh the 85 Lime Street, Old Lim signage that needs that need at this point needs a letter. Yeah. Yeah. And if you want to

Can you draft something and I'll look at it? De and I will look at it because Dean's still on the commission. All our spare time. Yep. And then look museum. They're they they must be done at the fence by now, right? The fences. Yes, they've put in the lom and good. Uh it doesn't all get washed away. 97 Lime Street. They're they still haven't started their garden shed

that expires next July. um Paul's Road sidewalk proposal. You haven't heard anything? It turns out the work they were doing, I talked to Martha Shoemaker, was state work and it apparently is ADA requirement that you have a cement patch that connects the crosswalk to the crosswalk signal or something like that. So, it's a little like ADA work. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and then 105 Mine Street.

We'll come back. Uh, actually, I'm gonna We need to submit a like for like on the sighting that we're going back from the fire. So, we'll do that and then we'll come back on the 10th with our final formal CFA, right? Um, and then 110 Line Street for the driveway gravel. And you just gave me something else for the for the fence. This needs some repair work which most of which will be done next year but

uh let's see and did the meeting schedule historic plaque program. Um yeah, Carolyn did give me some photos and etchings of the area. Um it's hard to tell. It's hard to see. You can see the little the little building. There is there is a little building there. Yeah, I think that was 1834, right? Yeah, there was a structure there. There's something there. So, it's hard to tell what it was. If it was, you know, the soap factory or what it's supposed to be, but anyway. Is this Robin Sedwish? Sed. Are we talking about Robin Sedish? Gaston. Yes. Fred Gaston.

Oh, Gaston. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah, that other And you know, Robin's house, that's all I had. I mean, that's all I've ever seen. So, yeah. Yeah. And Robin's house really, I think, was just like a boat shed or something. Yeah. Everybody always wants their house to be like something else. She wanted it to be something else, right? They always wanted to be from like 1700. And sometimes it's just not they didn't build ships there. They just didn't It's been something's been there for a long time. I don't know. Um, and that's all I have for that. And and Rose Lane, of course. And Rose Lane. Yeah. Rose Lane was at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Um, new and ongoing business. I think given the time, um, we should postpone all of this. The realtor sign language has been revised, but uh we can, as I said last meeting, nobody's beating down the door with questions, so we can save that for next meeting and pick up on these other other things. So before we adjourn, after after we adjourn, move second. All in favor? I We're now adjourned.