Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

So, are we are we set to go? I think so, John. All right, let's call the meeting to order. Um, Deanie is is not here. Um, today we also have a short agenda, so fingers crossed. We'll see how we do. Um, I had an email from Deb. She is expecting to to be here, but she may have to leave early. And uh so do we know whose whose turn it is, Martha, to fill in at least at least for Deanie? Um I think it's David. I remember that's my memory. I think it's David. Okay. So I think that's right here. Yeah. Two, three. One, two, three, four. So, David's authorized to vote this meeting. Um, first first issue is approval of the May 5th regular meeting minutes. I second. Carolyn moves. Russ seconds. Any discussion? All in favor? I. Any opposed? carries. Were you Were you here at I was not so I to abstain. I did not vote. Okay. I should have asked for abstension. So David abstains. Um public comment any public comments. Hello Bill. Good morning. Do you do you have any uh comment you would like to make or you just I do have comments but but not at this time. Just I'm just kind

of observing uh this morning. Thank you very much. Okay. Well, we have uh we have a shorter than usual meeting. I can't say it's typical, but you're welcome to sit in and uh and uh see see what all goes on here. John, we have Katie also. Thank you. On to she's muted. If Katie wants to speak, we she's not muted from this end. I know. You can ask if she has a comment. Yeah. Yeah. She may have just logged on to make sure it was working. Oh, that's Katie. Yeah. Yeah, got it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so first up, Charlie. Uh, bring a chair up. You can sit. Uh, there's a chair here, Charlie. Right here, Charlie. This is a continuation of the public hearing last week. Hi. Hi. Morning. Morning. How you guys doing? I'm sorry. Bill is Bill. Are you gonna stay the whole meeting? I think he can hear you. It's Bill. Are you going to stay for the whole meeting? Uh, yes I am. Okay. Um, so Charlie, if you uh want to pick up, we, as I recall, approved the the windows a couple months ago and uh uh Right. Thank you for that. Um, and we

were just extending the conversation on the back of the house is where we were at. Um, I think there was a question about like things like what kind of door. So, I printed out an example of the door. Mhm. This would be the front door because we know you have many doors, right? The back door. This is all on the back of the house. You and this surround that is pictured there with that in case it's not just the door. It's the entire There's two more packets here. Dad, you didn't get great. No, just the door itself, right? Yeah. So, I don't I actually don't think there's going to be side lights. And then Charlie, uh, where would it go at this where this door is? Uh, we got this right here. So, right now. Oh, I see. Yeah, that's what you see there, Tom. It's not this. No, that's the shed. There should be another view somewhere. Oh, so it's that east elevation. So, it's that area that needed to be corrected because of the roof line. Yes. Right. Okay. This one. Right. I don't have So, that that roof line comes down to my neck. So it's a it's a hazard, you know. Yes. Looks like it's sharp, too. Yeah, I remember seeing that. Yeah. Okay, let's just for the record tried to speak once at a one person at a time. So it would be cutting. So this would stay. The look of this would stay at least. And right now in the picture, it's it's an open void. and you walk into there, then you turn into a door, and then you turn into an interior door.

So, the idea is to just continue this wall across and put a door right there. Okay. And cutting this back, this overhang or take it off so you just have the actual roof. Okay. Yeah. And there was a question about this window. The new window would be uh Oh, we could The window is 24 by 39. Where is it on the uh right here? That one. Yes. And this is a vinyl window right now that I think Marty put in. Okay. below the right ones. And then are you using this marlin window just to match all the same? Yep. But not double hung, right? Yes. Is this a fixed window? Yeah, that is a fixed window. It's a fixed window. And does it have all these panes? this one. Yes. Right. Yeah. It would be it would be just like So it would match a little better than your current Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It' match better than that. And uh also as well it would be getting getting rid of these peers, the the brick peers and putting foundation across. Oh, okay. And you've got that marked as a 6 in concrete foundation. Yes. Eight, it looks like. Oh, 8 in. yet. Say, and then this window. Okay, it says six on here. So, it should be eight. Eight on the plan.

Um, yeah. And there's a correction of this roof line, which is a flat crooked roof right now. And it would just be putting a slight pitch on it and the material would match to the main house. Yes. Yeah. Everything wood collabor that the term right and same same uh architectural shingle. So when you um say you you match the roof line across on this this other area near the new door where the roof comes down. Is it the main roof or is it the roof off that end unit that comes down? See this? I know it's kind of hard to here. Sorry. There's there's a roof that this sticks out like two and a half feet, but it's pretty flat and it's it goes straight across and then it angles up. But you you said there was one part that was a hazard because it came over, John. right here. This is our only entrance from our house from like parking and that comes down to here actually. Okay. So, h how what are you doing to correct that? Just just removing it. And then there looks like there's a pole above it, right? There's a post below and then a pole. Oh, that's the gutter. Oh, okay. So, the right now the gutter goes down. Yeah. Yeah. Goes onto that roof and then catches on. Yeah. I don't know why it was done like that though. That's gonna clean that up. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's the worst part of the house. Everything else is like

doesn't need any changing. You know, it's I think it's just the afterthought of someone else's afterthought. You know, there was never a kitchen. So, right, the idea of a kitchen was foreign at the time and now they're like, "Well, we got to put it somewhere. Let's So, the floor is shakes and then it's clapboard the lower level, right?" Yes. Okay. Is that a change? No, because shakes are here. But the lower level, it looks like you're going to continue to clap forward. Okay. So that's what I would make an adjustment to that that's coming up now. That's the only thing I see being different than this plan is the is the shakes versus the clabard. Uh so the shakes this see how it's all kindual pieces. They're individual pieces and then this is the clapboard that is all one piece. Okay. Yeah. Is anything vinyl or is that all? It's all wood. It's all wood. It's wood shakes. And this is woodcluff right here. And so what do you want to do, Charlie? Well, the architect's idea is to take this line, right? Can I turn you might? Yes. No. Sorry. Um to continue this line down here. Okay. Because right now this cuts into there. And so it would be just take the shake down to here. And so that's all clabber and the line of shake is on one. So the shakes will be only above the the lower roof line. Right. I didn't and above and below. That's my understanding. Dividing it horiz uh vertical vertically. So you got a vertical dividing line. Yeah. Because once you put this Sorry, who's your contractor? It's

um right now we're looking at a couple contractors still. I mean, we have one guy, uh, Bill Lions, and, um, you know, there's we're we're not really sure. Okay. Yeah. It's it's going to be a merger of work because there's foundation and then there's we have the lead abatement thing going on. So, they're doing the windows. Yeah. Yeah. So, we're trying to time it together. you know, there's the front of the house, the back of the house, and then there's a possibility for grant money for some of the work. So, because once you get up with the cost, you can get a grant that actually does something. Do you have shake on other parts of the house on like the front? The shakes's on the front and all the sides. Um, it's just clabbered on the what you see on the right here on the back and right here on the back. And then the peaks on the um on the uh where the covered porch is, the peaks above it are also blabbered. So there's a mix on other parts of the house of shade and clabard. So there's a precedent to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this would just be, you know, this would just be, you know, 18 in over going to collaborate instead of there being cross are going to shake because instead of there being cross lines of texture, you know, just to keep the this upstairs just to keep it one texture because this would be Is that pretty much what You're saying that it looks

like initially like the main house. Can I draw on that? So what I'm the final idea be to make this all shake and this would this which would mean this would be shake. Okay. So then all this this whole line Yeah. Yeah. is together you know. Okay. Sorry for the quick drawing but Okay. Um to continue this line straight through. Is this the south end? Yes. Yes. Just out of interest. Yeah. Do you have any idea on the date of the shakes in the collaborate? I'm interested in the, you know, when were they, can you tell at all which is older or if they were put on at the same time when there's a mix, you know, on this seems much newer. It's in really good condition. Um, the front of the house, the shake is in really terrible condition and it's it's got it's rounded and gappy and so that makes me think it's pretty old. Okay. Um, so the I'm I'm assuming the clabard's the original style of the house, but as it got added on to, maybe it was just easier to blend the extensions together with shake instead of right. Yeah. Interesting. So, but then that said the additions over time are the newer part. So, but newer being 1800 it gets really confusing talking about old and new with the house because

like I mean I look at how this is all made this whole entryway and it is old. Yeah. It looks like something slapped together in the 80s but it's like 1880s or something. It's the house was renovated in 1860, right? Exactly. When it was moved back from the street. Yeah. It was moved back from the road and renovated ex when Evelyn was, you know, had grand ideas about um Yeah. I'm glad she moved it back. Yeah. Yeah. And her father too. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um Martha, we do you have the approval we gave that uh Charlie mentioned that the windows here were covered including wood windows on the shed. Yes. That's so we don't need to do anything with those today. No, that was included in it's in the April minutes. Okay. Yes. Um, are there any comments, Bill, or people in the audience, about this hearing? Um, we just want to introduce ourselves. We just bought 319. Great. So, we're we'll be glad we should be finished here momentarily and then we'll we'll be glad to say hi officially. Um any any comments? Any other comments from uh members of the committee? I have not. I have not. I think it's No. Should we just move? Yeah. So, let me try to summarize um that uh I would I would move that we approve the CFA for

um door siding and single shake work as shown on the attached plans uh including an 8 in concrete foundation. That's a correction from what's on the submitted form. Um, including correcting the the roof pitch, including uh removing the overhanging roof line that comes down near from the shed near the existing entryway and approving a uh wooden door single light. Now, Charlie, I've heard you say you probably would not be using these these lanterns as is light lighting over the entrance. Uh something you have in in mind. Um Oh, so there's no This would just be a solid door. No light. It's just a black door in that picture. So, but no exterior light. No, but electrical lighting. You said I thought you said you would not have those, right? Yeah, we wouldn't need lights, but we can work on that later. Okay. No idea what Is there light there now? There's no light there now. There's There's a motion light, you know. Okay. All right. So, you can Yes. How will you be treating the gutters? the gutters will put there's there's uh right now there's we would just we we replaced the the gutters on the rest of the house. So we were just waiting on doing the gutters on the back until these corrections were made with the pitch and everything. So they follow the drip line of the roofs. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So are you asking approval for new new gutters at this point? Do I need do I need to any anything related to the building? Yes. Oh, I thought replacement of gutters was if you're just replacing with the the same thing that then it's a like for like No, we need a like a like for like form. But if you're changing if it if there are no gutters currently or you're changing the style or you're changing a down spout. Okay. So, you want to wait and evaluate that. I mean, if you're just replacing what's what's there, then Yeah, we don't need to to come in. I don't want to put Are you going to have white gut? The gutters are white now, right? Yeah, gutters are white now. Prefab or you're going to have them made on site? Made on site. Yeah. Matching the existing. Yeah. I mean, well, not matching the existing. Exactly. But they're going to be functional. Matching the rest of the gutters that are already on the house. on the house. Yeah. Uh well, if Why don't Why don't we include include gutters to match to match existing gutters on the on the front on the rest of the house? The new ones blend in. It looks like the trim. It's kind of amazing. Looks like put new trim on the house. Yeah. Right. Nice. Surprising. So, thank you for that. Did you know that the windows are matching? You You made a comment about the door being a wood door, but did you make a comment in that about the windows? Did I hear that? You're having these windows on the side. No, no, no. Windows. The replacement windows. The replacement windows. Oh, they Martha said we approved those last Oh, those are already in April. Okay. So, that doesn't need to be on that. All right. Great. Thank you.

So, we got foundation, correcting the roof pitch, removing the overhanging roof, uh having a line of shake on the side that's vertical, which would mean uh replacing some uh wooden uh clabards sort of north of the roughly halfway point. um with with shake and approval of gutters to match the rest of the house. John, do you want to add the basement sash 28 by 20 in that? Where's the basement sash in the foundation? Foundation. Yeah. Is that a window? That's a window. Did Did we approve the a basement window? Basement window was not mentioned. We don't need the basement window to be honest. Well, we're not going to just We're asking if we should include it. You've just discussed it. It's going to be And there's one there now, right? But do you want to leave that off or There's no basement window. Does that Yeah, cuz it's it's on pillars. But there will be a basement window. There can be. There doesn't need to be. There's We're trying to keep you from coming back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate Yeah, but the difficulty is if we approve a a basement window and he doesn't put it in, then he has to come back to the code. I mean, I guess it's for code, you know. I don't know about the code. So, I'll just Well, why don't you defer that? You You need to come back and fill us in if you're doing some lighting over the doors anyway. Okay. Over the door. Well, I I mean, is it on the drawing? It's on the draw. I'd prefer to keep it and I thought it was just a question of we didn't talk about it and I was like

saying it's fine with me but So if you're going to do it, we'll approve it now. Yeah. Okay. Because we can't do the foundation and then cut a hole in right. Okay. So and it's aligned with the other windows too, which is nice. So yeah, I would include that. Thank you for Yeah. Okay. So what are the measurements of that? Better give me some 28 by 20. 28 28 by 20 wooden wooden lattice operable or fixed. They're they're operable typically supposed to be. Yeah, typically they're operable at foundation line. Yeah, I guess it's in case your basement floods and I have mine up. Okay. 8 inch foundation. Correct the roof pitch. Remove the overhanging roof. Line of shake on the side uh of the house to be vertical with the line of shake above. Approval of gutters to match the rest of the house. 28 by 20. Wooden lattice at the foundation line. all and uh the the the new wooden door uh all to be as as shown in the submitted submitted materials. Any steps or rework is to the entrance to the door right here. Yeah, it's like a sidewalk or or stones going in or you know, I was gonna apply for that later. Do that with do that with the door lighting. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Because they're going to make a mess of the ground and everything and Got it. It's the pathway from the barn to the house is this wide, right?

It's the only pathway we have. It drives me nuts. You can't shovel the snow because it hits every crooked stone every eight 10 in. You need something wide enough for the Vermont cart. It's uh Yeah. All right. I dream about changing it, but we're not there yet. Did you mention the shingles in your Yeah, he did. Okay. John, did you mention the basement window? Yes. Yes. Okay. And my question is the lattice work that you included in the I think that was being removed being removed that was being removed foundation. So it's being replaced by the foundation which you had earlier on this area. Okay. So 8 in concrete foundation replacing existing because that's just that's jetting out and just sitting on R. Yeah, it's just the foundation. The whole house has this foundation and then that second story is the corner of that second story is on top of those peers and the Okay, this will be an upgrade to the support of the house, right? I mean, guys, this is the smallest part of the house and it's going to be the most expensive fix, you know, you're doing foundation work. Yeah. All right, Martha, you got that 8 in foundation concrete, replacing the existing peers and lattice. Correct the roof pitch so it's all on one line. Remove the overhanging roof from the shed near the existing uh entrance way. um approving a line of shake uh to be vertical with the shake on the uh upper levels of the house.

Um add gutters to match the existing gutters on the rest of the house. Include a 28x20 wooden lattice at the foundation line. No, that's what you're taking out. No. Yeah, it's the window. The window. I'm sorry. Lattice. Window. 28 by 20. It's a It's no lattice. It's not a lattice. It's a basement window. It's listed as basement sash. Basement sash. Oh, there you go. Good thing I'm reading it back. And then a a new wooden door. all as shown on uh images and architectural plans submitted with the CFA application. Um is that a motion, John? That's a motion. So, it needs a second. Go ahead. I'll second. Okay. Further discussion. So, we will be discussing door lighting and pathway. Landscape. Landscaping walkway. Thank you guys. Yeah. Note please Mark we haven't voted yet almost you're almost there note please that in our description that the lighting and the walkway will be considered at a later date. Okay. So motion made second. U all in fa all in favor I I Any opposed any abstensions? Motion carries. Charlie, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Great work. Appreciate it. It's so helpful to have the the the plans and pictures to go off. Beautiful. It's going to be great. It's it's all it needs. I mean, it's going to be it's going to be a relief to make sure it's not sinking, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And

uh Yeah, that'll be great. Yeah. It'll last a long time. Yeah. Been there a while. Yes. Another 100. That's what I try to tell the insurance agency, you know. I'm like, yeah, that's difficult. Been here. A long time. I don't know, guys. Not going anywhere. I'd like to know how much money they've made off that house over the years. Uh, do you want to keep that door uh print? It would be helpful. Okay. Thank you guys so much. And do we need a copy of the plans? We we have a we have a copy. We have one. Okay. Yes. And Charlie, could you sign the one of those printed things? I reprinted the CFA. I just needed to sign it and then we'll write everything. Oh, okay. Thank you. Yeah. And thanks thanks for helping me through the intricacies, saving the time right here. Thank you. Do you know about this rehabilitation credit these days? Uh just now we I think that's the one I'm looking into%. Yeah. Is it is it 30% I can email you. Your email's on there. Yeah. Just unofficially email. Okay. 30%. Okay. Moving on, Tony. Yep. Sorry. See you again. All right. Have a good one. Thanks for your time. Good luck with Appreciate it. Bring us out there for Thank you for Welcome. Welcome new neighbors. Thank you. And tell me your your names. Victor foundation where I mean 30% of

this cost. Okay. Step out. I'm going to keep my distance. I'm not contagious, but I kind of move off some out of respect. Stay away. Okay. Um, I had a couple of questions for you. Tell tell us first which which house you Oh, the formerly. Hi, Leslie. Welcome back about Daniel when I wrote to you. We emailed back. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, we bought the house um December 30th, moved in full time May 14. Um I have a couple of questions for you just to get on track with everything. We didn't really understand what we bought into until I looked back. Um we inherited some very nasty uh surprises. Uh, one of them was an HVAC um, issue that I don't think affects anything on the commission. We had to deal with that immediately. There was no heat on one whole side of the house. Uh the next thing is um there was uh the interior is beautiful in the house and um we started to realize that the roof was failing. So we had to get a tarp on the ceiling on the roof immediately and uh I had contractor ready to put a new roof on. Um, and that probably is something that I need to deal with your folks. Well, it it depends. We we have two alternatives.

If if all you are doing is replacing a roof with the same material. It's it's the same in all respects. You simply need to fill out what we call a like for like form. And that's just for we kind of have a recordkeeping function as well as an approval process. Um, and that's on the on the website or there up in the build. Uh, I think they have some in land use in the land use department upstairs. Um, but if you're doing more than just a like forlike replacement of what's there, then you need to come in for the sort of hearing that you just observed. And for a roof, it's it's uh he was doing some major construction changes. Uh, but it's it's pretty straightforward. Good. We we do have a it it's really just a statute state statutory mandate that we have to have the approval processed. So if you change material from like a wood to a asphalt or if you're changing material that would be a change of the the roof type. So, uh, that requires a the original coating at the top, uh, which has been painted over throughout the years anyway, uh, is copper. Um, I have a contractor who says they want to go to steel, uh, with the look of copper. Um, and steel and copper cannot be used together going through all the adoptions. trying to figure out what I can do to preserve the look uh even though the look has been

corrupted over the years. Um in that situation, what would I do? Well, if you're using different material, you do need to come in. And it's it's pretty again, it seems to me from the brief description that it should be no promises very very straightforward, but it does matter. It does require filing what is our second type of form, which is a certificate of appropriateness form. Gotcha. And that's why uh Mr. James was in to have approval of his application before he proceeded with foundation work and new door and all the things you heard about. I'm so glad I'm here today. A lot of people don't say that. Oh, requirements. Oh, really love the house. who have saved it, right? The interior is um being affected by the roof and the water leaking the walls. And um I'm sorry to say there was it's an issue of fraud and uh that brings another question to me. I wonder if you folks have um any kind of protections uh for people who buy into this community uh because we were not protected by the broker uh the selling broker. We weren't protected. Um and it's it's absolute it's I've already spoken to a lawyer. It's absolute fraud on the part of the sellers. There's no question of that.

Um, so we're different with that number one, but but even that's not even a for us. Number one is to save the house. Yeah, that's what we're trying to do. So, a lot of just had to happen very very quickly once all the situations started to present themselves as soon as we moved in. Um and and that's why I'm sort of asking for guidance. Well, I'm just say we certainly can't provide any legal advice, right? And I wouldn't even venture there. John, you could comment to that. No, I think you hit the nail on the on the head. The the realtors are certainly aware that this is a historic district. Um I I you know some of them may not choose to advertise the fact I all we do is out there in the public and the requirements are out there. Uh but we we we do not get into the intricacies of buyer seller negotiations, relations, statements, any of that. We we we deal with approval of the the structures. And in response to your specific question whether we provide any kind of uh safety net or something like that, I do not believe that to be the case at all. and and one of the I mean the only thing I would say is that certificates of appropriateness are a matter of public public record. So

uh I don't know that we we can say more than than that. If if um we have had situations in which someone who is about to sell a property needs to fix something up in order to sell it and they don't have a certificate of application and so the building part permit won't let them go ahead and do what they need to do for for selling the the the place. But if if somebody doesn't apply uh for needed repairs, we have no way of of of knowing about the situation. Really interesting. And thank you for listening to all this. We we've been dealing with this, you know, it's it's amazing to deal with. Um because that was one of my questions is that how did this house get the certificate of occupancy with a condemned furnace? And I found out about the condemned furnace after I bought the property. And now I have proof that it was condemned in 2023. And so, uh, we had proof of the seller knew that the furniture was cond. How we learned about it was once we bought the house, there was a space heater in the bedroom and a space heater in the bathroom. And I was like, where did this come from? This here. Mhm. And my son and uh, I happened to come up here in January and a couple of things happened. Um the for some reason the propane propane company did not refill the tank. I said

this really cool generator which triggered the existing boiler to stop and I spent 48 hours. I told the son to go back home uh freezing trying to save the house for 48 hours which I did which was amazing but it was cold. Well, the the anything about certificates of occupancy is or that we don't we don't do that. We don't deal with inside problems at all. It's just exterior. Got so roof roof. Yes. But inside boilers, no. Yeah. So, for example, mechanical, an exterior mechanical piece would be in our jurisdiction, but not an interior piece. Yeah. So, the next thing is that the basement floods like crazy. So, that would not be. where you would be doing a whole um if it's in if it's interior if you need to make exterior changes to fix a problem it would be but wasn't there a pipe coming off that property for years draining onto Lime Street Carolyn recall seeing that I don't remember one but interesting I saw something about it was like a sump pump uh and it's been like for years I I think we all drive by it and interesting. Well, that's going to be fixed on July 9th. July 10th, that will be fixed completely. Um, so we're figuring out the parameters of how we've been handled and what we need to do. Yeah. For our procedure, if you do need

a certificate of you can file a like for like uh form anytime. If you do need a certificate of appropriateness, um just be aware we meet next month, first Monday of every month. We do not meet August in August. So, you know, if you have something you'd like to us to look at either, you know, like we shoot for 10 days before the first of the month to to get something in and otherwise it would be waiting till September. And if if you're putting in a new HVAC system um and it's outside, you're going to have to tell us what you're doing. Now the another exception to the outside rule is if something is not visible from a public way, in your case, Lime Street, we don't have jurisdiction. So if you're doing something right in the back of the house, nobody's going to see it uh from the from the street, like a back fence or something. But you know this might be visible from the street visible from if if any part of it wouldn't be visible perhaps wouldn't be. Yeah. If any part of it's visible then yes. No we were probably in error but we did get the house the exterior painted light for light and the shutters. Exactly. That's one thing we don't have color uh jurisdiction over. Okay. For some reason, our statute exempts paint colors. Yeah. Well, we just did light. So, yeah. So, so just to reaffirm uh if I were to say to these uh roofers,

just add on new copper to the old copper. Don't take the old copper off, which is an option that I've been talking to them about, then it's definitely like for life. if they want to rip off all the old copper, which actually breaks my heart. Um, and and replace it with steel with the same look, then I would have to second which is a little more. It's it would be pretty straightforward though. Yeah. Okay. And then when can they start work? Um well if it's like for like they can start work as soon as we have a like for like form. Okay. Um and that could be today. No, we don't. We what we do with the like for like is we just look at it basically and if there are some questions I mean sometimes people slap down something and you look at it and you say wait a second that's not really like for like you're talking about adding X and and uh they don't they don't read read carefully enough. Uh but but and in which case we'd get back to you right would get back to you right away and say wait a sec this are you sure this this project doesn't look from your form to be exactly a like forl like replacement but um if if it is like for like you just file the form and proceed. It's a it's just a repair of but the other way the certificate of appropriateness we have to submit 10 days before July whatever this first Monday is 10 days before and then get it approved that July. That's right. Yes. Okay. Got the July meeting. So if the roofing material is different you would need the CFA.

Yeah. And we can get that you can get that online or in the land upstairs. Okay. Thank you so much. I really appreciate this time. So, you've had all those problems. That's not Yeah, I'm sorry about that, but I you you appear to be folks who care about historic structures. So, uh that's great. Yeah, we're grateful for that. Thanks so much for coming. One other one other comment is the the state has sources of funding for the kind of work that you're doing on your house. um to help preserve it. There's historic um funding available and Julie knows about that. Yeah, the historic home rehabilitation credit. Um so they fund um uh things that they approve. Um I think it's 30% up to $100,000 worth of work. They give you a tax credit or reimbursement for um on an annual basis. So assuming they approve the work and everything, um it can be timeconuming to do, but it could be worth your time. Um, we file a like for like and we get your email. I can email you that link to that if you'd like. It's it's if you remember the initials SHPO, just Google that, the State Historic Preservation Office and they have a list of all sorts of resources. Great. Um, there's also a nonprofit called Connecticut Preservation. I don't think they have grants unless you're a nonprofit, but Shipo does does. So, yeah. Oh, great. Could be really helpful. Appreciate the cost. And and then my last question was since I'm meeting with so many contractors, um I see the spectrum of uh what I've been asked to

pay. Uh, one of the estimates was $110,000 to paint my house. To paint to paint my house. Wow. 110,000. So that was the client. Um, they're asking 64,000 to put the new roof on. These are very very high. And so I'm wondering if there's a pool of resources that you folks that you know sort of like recommend contractors or restorers who are trustworthy. Do you do that? I might be able to give you names of a few. I appreciate not not as a commission personal the commission does not yes um because I'm realizing that you know now we are homeowners in this community and we're you know we're elders we're elers okay I'm an elder But I'm seeing you need to be protected and if there's anything that I would be a part of to do that I would like to do that. Um I mean the neighbors they're wonderful welcome into the community and I'm seeing how there needs to be some kind of protection here as well. Um, I don't even know what I'm talking about, but I know like uh it's I see a need for it, you know, and it's sort of what you're doing, you know, as the commissioner to protect and

preserve, you know. So, if there's anything that I know. Well, thank you. That's great. Thank you for coming in today. Appreciate it. Well, so much for we'll treat that as a as a part of the public comment section. Well, hopefully we can move expeditiously through the rest. Um, Julie or Carolyn, thank thank you very much for Yeah. the work you did. And thanks also to to Russ who I think has finally pinned down final little and David again for pinning down the final little remaining bit of the GPS survey. We can get the GPS map also on the yeah revised web page. Send the info to BJIO this week. So okay, great. Yeah, I don't have very much to say. All I did in this, it's essentially what what what you saw before. I just added in the changes that were recommended in the meeting last time. So, some of it is a change of wording and um yeah, and you know, placing the the link in a different location and that sort of thing. Then I added in bullets because it was kind of hodge podge the last time. But there's not much difference. But what I see is another big effort uh after we figure out the realtor signs and the sign policy to go through all at once all the language the whole thing because I still think there are redundancies and I think they're sections that are too long. So I would try to condense and yeah and remove what's repetitive and just make sure the language and and the styling and the format. Martha can help with the

format is consistent and then Martha I would send you a clean copy but I'd be happy to sit down with you if anything is unclear about what to move where or whatever. Yeah, we could do that together. The um I did notice so I'm expeditious going through it. Yeah, one thing to pay attention to is the I think we need to be as consistent as possible about the language between forms and because the like for like form for example is much more particular than the language you have. It needs to be identical in the senses that you noted, but also location for example as one not mentioned and and the like for like form has in bold face I think uh identical in every respect for example form and style size height illumination location material type material color apart from paint coloring images. So that's you know if we can just kind of track that. Um another issue to note briefly is um you you had at the end of your revision uh a question really about whether there was a length for light approval required. I don't remember that. I'm sorry. in the material you've where where's the or must be approved. Yeah. And then you had a question. Is this accurate? Which page? I'm sorry. Tell me page three under like at the end of the like for like section. Okay.

And we we haven't had an approval process. It has been essentially I think what I described to the folks who were here. You file a form. Deanie and I would look at it and Martha and if anything jumps out and say, "Wait a sec. That can't be like for like, you know, they're talking about whatever double doors instead of a single door." Oh, I see. Yeah, but we had a question and Martha, you can help fill in from the I think the building commissioner who was asking u it was a project that required a a a building permit and it was in fact just a repair. They were replacing some structure. Yeah. U but the the building commissioner says we need some notice that this is okay with you. Right. Right. So I guess I mean my thought was we could have a a form that simply says um that that one of the co-chairs would sign that says receive no action no HDC action necessary. Yeah, that's good. I don't want to get into the business of people saying, "Oh, it's still like for like repair, but now we got to get a formal approval and we got to wait for the approval." I think that's great. So, well, how do you want to give me language for that or um is the language already okay? I I would stay away from the language of approval. Okay. So, just I'll just remove that sentence. Yeah, let me give you some other s some other language. But in the course of this website revision, we should take a look at the forms and I

would suggest adding at the end some signature line from the commission saying received such and such a date. No action necessary. That's great. But that doesn't have to go in this. I agree. No, no. Yeah. Great. I think the like for like is an incentive to do like for like that's what we want. That's the main thing, right? So we want it as ex easy as possible like these. Anything else, Julie? No, I think you've covered it. You've done a great job. I mean, I appreciate this. The the goal again is we more or less finished signage after a long fall. We finish the website revisions and and make sure we're giving consistent instructions throughout and then lighting. There are other issues to tackle but this is great if you can. So is our goal that um you'd like to have is I think the July meeting is too soon to have the absolute final text. Yes. the draft because we still have to, you know, the signage there's still a lot and there are FA FAQs and Yeah. Okay. So, we won't do it in till maybe in September. Is that what you think? Sure. I think that's more realistic. Yes. Um the realtor form Oh dear. Let me introduce this briefly. This arose because um we had a question from a realtor about compliance of realtor signs with the with

the signage guidelines that we adopted. Uh, and this gets into the because it's me, some of the nitty-gritty about what exactly we have authority over. So for signs fixed to the ground, including temporary signs, no structure within a historic district may be improved and approve installed until after applica application for a C of A has been approved. Structure includes signs that's in the statute. So the realtor signs, one might say, by a common sense of what it means to be a a fixed are a fixed to the ground. They're driven in typically in in a stake. Um, can the HDC wave the need to obtain a C of A? But we have additional authority concerning advertising signs which we may control. Doesn't say control through the HDC uh C of A process. Um the difficulty here is that as I understood the advice of attorney that we received about um what three years ago now this is this is an additional authority which would give us authority over advertising signs. advertising

being broadly defined to include um uh providing ideas but certainly a realtor sign I think would be called an advertising site gives us an additional authority for signs that are not affixed to the ground. We would have authority over a-frame signs we would have authority over signs that are suspended on a line. So, well, how does this make real life? Um I don't can we just wave a C of A and provide design standards which are um an option that some people had thought of but R Russ Russ really filled out in a in a in a communication. Can I modify that? Number three, you can do whatever you want. Based on what what I'm reading here, um could it be that we still require a CFA? Um but it's a one-time CFA for the realtor where we specify the we approve the design and then we also approve a standard location for the sign. So, in other words, we're not going to we're going to do exactly what we're saying item three, but actually make make it a one-time CFA for that particular realtor. Yeah. I mean, this rel this relates So, we're not going to wave the CFA. That's a great idea. This relates that's what we should do. This relates to the notion of approval in advance of nonprofit signs which we

don't yet have applications but for but that's but here here here's my only uh nagging concern because it does make sense not to have realtors coming in or each home. But our current guidelines say who's who's responsible for structures on a property? Well, it's the property owner, you know, that's who right now has to submit a C of A. If if Greyel wants a if some one of his shop owners in his little line of shops wants to do something exterior, they can't apply. It's property owner. So, um, I guess we, you know, who's going to call us on it, but we given my background, I'd say I want to adhere as closely as possible to to the the statute. Can I ask a question? Quick question. Is there any standardization in the realer signs so that if you stay within that general framework and say that they can't exceed well that this gets up to a zoning issue which is here violated by many signs of of longstanding zoning rags say a sign in a residential district which the HDC he is cannot exceed two square feet. They're all bigger than that. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so what do we do? Well, well, John, getting back to your your point about

the legal authorization being owner, a a a realtor is a representative, a a contracted there's a contract representative of the owner there. It's not like it's a tenant and and so an approval for a realtor that then is contractually doing business and representing the owner later contracting. Does that suffice? Yes, I think that's great because then you can say in the you know we talk about signs that an a property owner or their contracted agent place it there because John is the goal to control wire signs like that's all I see when I look at something like this. I think it's a bit of an overreach to control realtor signs at this point. And I would think that this would just for me personally, it would be putting responsibility on the homeowner for the sign that's on your property. Whether it's realtor, the guy painting, the HVAC guy, the driveway guy, just the responsibility needs to be, this is my opinion, on the homeowner and and let them know that this sign is your responsibility. If it's not, it's going to be picked up if it's there. And that goes back to our over 30 days temporary sign. But I think it's a bit of overreach to try and contort because I think all these realtors have to buy their own signs. I don't think that we could say, "Oh, it's got to be two by two all of a sudden." That's that's just what I think. Well, you know, I'm trying to imagine what Eric Knap would say. I I don't want to put words in his mouth, but uh he deals on a complaint basis. And you know, to best my knowledge, if a

realtor sign looks nice, the fact that it's what size are they? two and a half or square feet rather than two is not gonna raise raise eyebrows. Um I do if if we approve signs for let's say nonprofits, they typically replace existing signs. So in a sense they're arguably grandfathered in and you don't can't expect the museum to have a little square foot sign or ottoman. Um these signs have never been approved. So I think the goal is also providing a simplified process for realators and contractors where they kind of know as long as they have this kind of sign and put it in this location, it's it's fine. Good to go. It's a one-time thing. So So not every realtor sign or every contractor sign that gets put up in the district has to come before us. I think that's the problem with the the approach of the owner having to address every sign that gets put out. It's just trying to find a simpler pathway maybe. Yeah. I and the other issue with owners are they want to sell the house and right you know it's it's uh the end of June and and they put it on the market and the first time they could come in to get a sign put out is is September. I I I think it's unrealistic to expect homeowners

to to come in to get approval, right? So, I would be inclined to to say um try to create this this process for for realtors. Now again, if if there were an argument that we could operate solely under the advertising sign um basis, you wouldn't even have to necessarily have a CMA hearing. You could just develop guidelines and get realtors to acknowledge that they're abiding by those th those guidelines. But I don't I don't see statutoily how we can can do that. Do we know legal advice here? But just, you know, every sign a fixed to the ground is a structure that needs a C of A. What What do other towns do? Other historic districts, other historic districts largely ignore the issue. They uh can we ignore it? we because well we can do anything we want until we're called on the carpet I guess by whom it becomes the next question well when you when you have some gigantic realtor signs and I we've we've had a few but it's not that frequent you know signs that are seven by eight point requires brokers to have a small sign that's all very standard it's probably 2 feet off the with just call broker and a phone number. There's no name, there's no pictures, there's nothing and it's all uniform. The other issue is images on the sign that we Yeah. I mean, again, it can be a a quick

meeting, have a realtor stop in and get approval in advance, and we would need to develop the the guidelines. I think it would be a good idea after they're approved to include as part of the secretar's report a list of of entities that have this approval, you know, that have agreed to the the limitations. each real estate agent or the agency like the broker agency each agent. Okay. I mean like Sof is one and each agency. So the agency every agent and what about the ones that sometimes hang down little plaques for the name of the Right. They do that specific agent. The the big broad one that they have is usually the the agency number and then they put their name and their mobile number. Yes. And they hang down. Doesn't bother me. That doesn't bother me. No, it doesn't bother me either. Okay. We don't want to cail their business. We want them to be able to Absolutely. their business, right? So it's So is is this the consensus that we I I will draft up something and and hopefully we sign off on it in July is the process and then uh send letters out to to realtors. Well, it says and contractor sign. So I guess the question is is it just realtors we want to deal with at this point or I think for contractors that's a big overreach too. some of these guys like you know roofers or whatever they're just trying to work. Yeah, I think it's a little much to and they're not up as long as a realtor sign. Like a realtor sign could be up for seven months usually. Usually and then again I think it's where it's the onus is on the property owner. Why would they want this sign there for six months? Could we put a regulation to say

contractor signs can be up during the construction and maybe like a week after so that we limit the time of that? Is that possible, John, or no? We can do anything we want. I again you have you have types of signs that look you know you we all drive up and down the street. It looks junky at times. There's a big estate auction down at our end of the street. The big bright purple signs out in townland on the town park in front of the old lime in uh but those are temporary. They'll be down. It's only a three-day sale. I don't think that Yeah, that's a big deal. See, contractor usually Well, sometimes you can have year-long construction projects, right? Yeah. Uh but that's covered by the time that they're doing the work. Yes, it is right. As long as they're doing the work, right? Um, realtor signs can be lengthy because the length of time on the market. Um, but I think what you don't want to have happen is a contractor sign, they're done, and then three months later, the sign's still there, right? So, it seems to me it's while work is being done, and then some period after. I mean, we can certainly tell when work's being done on exterior features. Um, right. Maybe the thing is if we notice the thing to do is if we notice that a sign has remain remained up for any sort of period after work is done, contact the property owner. Yeah. Well, you know, that's an interesting point. I mean, they're coming in for a CFA for any exterior work. Can we fold in the sign? Yes. As part of the CFA discussion, right? Just for example, for one street. That's a great idea. That's a great idea. That let you know he can have his sign up there, but it's your responsibility

to take when the work is done. And do we want to say and it can't be a wire sign? It would be nice. Don't think so. We can say it. We can say it, bud. Well, no. I think I think we do is is whatever we whatever we think, but tie it to the CFA application. Yeah. it it's not going to cover the interior projects, but a lot of the projects are exterior. Okay, that's half the battle. So, all right, I have the consensus we've agreed on. Um, and I'll write something up for July and hopefully John, do you want me to ask the There's one realtor that pretty much runs all of the sales at Long Point. Do you want me to ask her about her little sign and how that is received by brokers that are out of the area? Sure. I don't I if you have a picture of one or get her to send you one, I'd love to see it. Okay. Okay. Great. Uh next item, co-chair's report. Um Deanie didn't have anything. The only thing I would mention that's that's new and then uh there are a couple things we discussed at previous meetings that I'll just tick off the status of at the end is u I understand that the select the board of selectmen has approved a grant application or submitted compiled and submitted a grant application for a Halls sidewalk. walk and I haven't seen it yet and I but I know it's in the works

and they know that we get to approve sidewalks in the historic district and they know that the our governing statute says we can make recommendations concerning outside. So, I will keep in touch with my my source and I I think maybe just stop in and chat with with Martha. Yeah, either chat or have or have you know, Martha Hansen send a note saying we understand and please be sure you get approval from the HCC. Maybe I have something else I'd like to chat with her about. So, it Okay, sure. Easiest just to proceed informally. Good. Great. And just on a related thing, in a conversation uh with people at the museum, they were talking about how wonderful it would be in the future if the Halls Road sidewalk, which if it were to happen, could perhaps make a curve at the Limeart Association and then continue up as far as maybe not as far as your house, but at least as far as Roger Tory Peterson and how would that process be undertaken? So perhaps you could when you speak to Martha say that there is a request or a recommendation and I've heard that from more than one. Yeah. Is that something but but just to find out how that could how that could happen would be great to go on. It's the same state road. Yeah. It's the same state road. Same state road. Unless there's setbacks from the state, right? Overlap the private propert would help with the witness stones and all the others. Yes, it would be nice to Okay, great. I think there might be objection proceeding beyond Ottabon. Yeah, sure. That far. Okay. And I have um Dean's because she texted me earlier. Um Lime Academy is

starting their roof project and hopes to be done with it by the end of July per Michael Duffy. And that's a like for like as I recall. I guess Martha. Yes. Yeah. Okay, great. Well, I'm glad she got in touch with you. I hadn't been aware of that. Secretary's report. Um, we are uh monitoring 17 situations in the historic district involving active CFAs or other matters. um the one line street renovation which we discussed today uh six line street the the fence um which I still don't have any extra information on you have you spoken with her I have sent her emails and I mailed her a letter okay but I haven't heard anything back originally when they took the fence down it was to be um reconstructed as like for like right. Um but there's no time frame on that. Um when how long ago did you send a letter? Two months ago. I would think it would be appropriate to to send a followup. Maybe try to call just say, you know, just can you please update us on the status of this? Yeah. cuz we really we know it's going to be like for like they're not going to remove the whole fence and put something different in. Um it's just that corner the part in front I think looks pretty dirty and it's fine. It was the part on the curve that was rotted and they had to take it down. Sure. Um so really we just we just need to know the time frame of that, right? because it will be like for like. So, um I will

follow up on that. Um then we we have a variety of like forlike forms and uh Cindy Taylor submitted a new like forlike form to replace some window some doors on her on the sun room that's on the north side of the house. and she has found identical doors. The the doors that are there are rotted and she's found some identical ones to put on. The wooden wooden doors. Yes. Uh and what does she say about the fence issue? The fence um she said the fence is like for like and she gave the uh measurements to the fence. The gate is missing. But the gate is the gate. She's not putting on She's not putting a gate. So, it's a not not a like forlike replacement. She's replacing a fence with a gate by a fence without a gate, right? So, she needs to submit a CFA saying that she's not putting in a gate. Correct. Correct. Right. Which is an issue worth discussing. I mean that we might say she needs but she needs the first step is she needs to come in and yes submit that and I would I would emphasize that to her. Yes. I I asked her to submit a Ca, but she hasn't done that yet. Um it'd be great if you know if you could nudge her to to get it for July since we're out in August. Yes. Um what else have we got? 31 Lime Street. They came in to talk about that. Um, I'm glad to know that they haven't they're not removing

the shutters completely. They're just repainting and putting them back on. Um, 38 Lime Street, the renovations continue. Uh, we got a like for like form from uh, Spears Plumbing at 48-1 Lime Street for a roof replacement. like for like same shingle, same color. It's just a new roof. Um the 49 street uh 49 Lime Street center school front door, we dealt with that. That's still under construction. Um 59 Lime Street, the uh Lysb renovations, they're still working on that. That CFA expires in October, but I expect they'll be done by then. Um, I heard from uh Monty about the storefront windows at 64 and 68 Lime Street. Um, I sent him a packet of information on like forlike CFAs. He said the contractor that he's using is still saying it's going to be like for like just like we discussed. I asked them to fill out the like forl like form and send it back to us. Um he doesn't expect anything will happen there before September. They're putting that off until the fall because they're very busy. Um 74 Lime Street, that new house has been started. Um and now they are talking about um putting the the heat pump. Remember we said that all the mechanicals should be in the back. Yes. Um now they are thinking about putting the heat pump on the norththeast corner of the

house. Um if they do that they they would need to come in for approval and it would need to be screened. Yes. Yeah. It's visible. Yeah. Um, and and they can't put it not right in front of the house. No, it's northeast corner. So, if you look at the house like this, it's right there. So, that's pretty close to the front of the house. So, we might want it to be further back the same way we insisted on in an earlier project, right? Yeah. Yeah. Several facade, different facade, right? Um what else? Okay. The still house roof replacement is like for like um the Florence Griswell Museum fence. We've been discussing that. Um the 97 lights and I'm sorry, let me interrupt there. Do we have any idea when they Peter will be back in the museum fence? No, I can I'll I'll I can follow up with him on that. I because I as I recall we requested a drawing or sketch. He said he was going to get the architect to do a drawing, right? But I don't know that he's done that, but he said he was going to he might remind him too that uh um we don't have a meeting in August. So I'll remind him of that. Yeah, he did say originally, but that, you know, he did say he would do the change, make the change in the spring, but I know they've been super busy with the house, which looks great, by the way. It does look great. House looks beautiful. Yeah, the house looks great. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and then the Hall's Road sidewalk proposal, which you mentioned. Um, I guess we're just waiting to hear if they will what they're going to do for that. They get the grant approved, whatever.

Um, and then we have two other like for likes. 105 for fence repairs and 110 for driveway graph. And you'll get one for me for fence. Okay. Probably September. Just need to stop raining so I can work on. Um, okay. So I'm working on the annual uh CLG report that certificate that's local government right thing that's where we annually we send a report to Shipo basically saying what we've done what are how many CFAs we've issued how many we approved denied whatever anything new that's happening ing in the district. It's a pretty simple report. Um, and it's very it's really nice to see just how many just what we've done. And it goes by the federal fiscal year, which is different from the town's fiscal year. Um, so I'm almost finished with that. Great. And the membership renewals, I just have some sign. and then I'll give that to Okay. Uh, and the plaque program is still the same. I don't have any updates on that. Excuse me. Yes. Tracy Navaro stopped me on my walk and asked about that and said she she'd accept the later date. Oh, good. Okay. move that forward more with us because she's been waiting a long time. Yeah. Yeah. I

know. She um we settled on that later date and she was like and then she had somebody come in and look at Skip Broom came in I guess. Yeah. And he said, "Oh, he thought parts of it were older and things." And that was the last that I heard, but I'll get back in touch with her about that. That would be nice. Right. We can wrap that one up. Yeah. Yeah. because we just don't have I mean the the remnants of the prior house do not warrant an earlier date on the existing house. Is that correct? So the so-called Higgins lay house that was there earlier. Do we do we refer back to the date of that house if we could find it or do we only date it to the the Bugby era because that's the existing house that that's really like an opinion that we would have to I think decide do we you know if there's like a chimney or a corner of a house that dates you know from the 1700s or something do You know, how did we acknowledge that uh glass? I think she mentioned that the skip room told her the glass in her windows was old. Very old. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, my feeling, my personal feeling is whatever the majority of the houses should be what's on the front because, you know, it doesn't look anything like a 1700's house. I think that's probably right. Yeah. And we do have there is a historic photograph of the Higgins lay house. It's pretty indistinct because it's an old photograph, but it's reproduced several places. So, we have some idea what it looked like, but not exactly. Is the foundation the same? We have no idea. Did they cobble together some parts of that? And at the time, they did do those parts still continue. So, maybe

we just go with the Bugby era, which is what the house really looks like today. Yeah. Yeah. And it it's consistent with the store next door which is in the same era. So, okay, I'll get in touch with her. Um, and we're still um puzzling over the uh 23 Ferry Road, the soap factory house. Yeah, I told you I'd get you that 1832 Warner etching that I think has the soap factory building in it. Oh, yeah. So yeah, I'll get that to you. That would be great. Thank you. And uh that's all I have Martha. Thank you as always. I am struck again as I am often by how indispensable your contributions are. Well, how hard you work, how much time you put into this. It's really greatly appreciated. Thank you. Um, so new and ongoing business. Uh, the PCD is is something Deanie has been uh shephering and she and I will talk about that. I did uh mentioned last minute at last meeting getting in touch with Amtrak and the other CC's about their lack of response or followth through to date on their April of 2024 letter. And I've identified things I can and ask them about, nudge them about. Uh, in a conversation with Deanie, I I think I want to wait to draft something until Greg Strad gets back from vacation and I could check with him about the political sensitivities. Um, I'm particularly

concerned that Greg mentioned this when he was here at the last meeting about the meeting that Amtrak held in Rhode Island with was it was it Compton? What was the town there? Charleston. Charleston. I knew it was a seat. Um, but anyway, that's that's still on the agenda. Um, we've in the past tracked state bills that might be of interest. Um, I haven't done that this year, but I noted that a major housing related bill passed the state general assembly is probably up for a vote in the Senate this this week. And the main part of it, as I understand, it wouldn't directly affect us because um it it it's concerns housing in areas that are zoned commercial and allows an easier transfer of commercial uses to housing unit uses. But I gather it's a big omnibus bill and I'm a little worried about what might be tucked inside that. Um, so if anybody hears more about that, um, let me know. Share just share with the commission. Um, and and the last thing under ongoing business was in in enforcement and and compliance. Um, we've in a sense with the realtors talked about this approvals in advance. I I think perhaps a notice another letter to the not forprofits

would be in order uh reminding them of this this option. Um old line in sign I noticed was still on the fence. Yeah, I I invited them to this meeting. They did take the wire signs down. notice and and I know they were thinking about the sign near the road uh as being kind of the new sign, but I guess they weren't ready to to present or meet with us at this point. So, well, they should take the sense down in the interim. I don't disagree with that. Um, I know we'll never have perfect compliance, but I it some of these things are correctable. I think I um Congo church has a flag. Church, you have in front of sign, but I'm assuming it's because they're painting because that was one of the flags that they had on the building and they took it. Yeah, they moved it to the side. It's probably a temporary thing. Okay, good. Okay, and it's time to adjourn. It's not as good as we hope, but it's not bad. So, I would entertain a motion to adjourn. And Deb seconds. Carolyn moves. Deb seconds. All in favor? I. 28 opposed. Any abstensions?