Affordable Housing Commission - Regular Meeting

Uh Sheila also here. Okay. So, it's 5:04 and we'll adjourn the meeting and we'll get started here. We've got um in the room here we've got Oh, let me turn it back on. In the room here, we've got Fred, Jim, and myself. And then see all of our lovely faces. And then, um online, we've got Anthony, um Sheila, and Lori. Um so at this time we'll seat Lori as a uh voting member and Anthony as well and we'll proceed. Um [snorts] so the first order of business will be to um approve the minutes. Oh cool. So there are no guests in this room by the way. Um so um and are there any changes proposed to the agenda? [snorts]

No.

Okay. Hearing none, we'll just go forward with it then. Um, and so, uh, we want to approve the minutes of October, but I see they weren't posted. So, what I'm going to do is just kind of look at them [laughter] and remind you what we said. Um, and then, uh, we could approve it, uh, later over, uh, at the next meeting officially. Um, but basically what we did was we just had the you guys can't see this, but um, basically what we did was um, we're just going over the driveway issue. We went over that how we needed more work on the Mccullik driveway, the width and the turnarounds and um, that there was this new issue that came up that we might need a sistern there. Um, and so Fred and Tom followed up with that which you'll hear about. And then the second order of business was just that we're going to be needing to get in new commission applicants um uh ne this month and next month um because the thing with that is um that the applicant has to attend a meeting in person before they can actually apply. So that only leaves them December and January meetings. So, we need to get those applications in fairly soon so that in February the board of selectmen can approve them. [snorts] So, keep that in mind when you reach out to people to tell them and and we'll post those dates of those meetings. Um, and that was that was our meeting. So,

yeah, [laughter] this is Anthony. Just a quick question. If you're a current member and your term is expiring beginning of 26, um, You don't have to attend a meeting because you've already been out. Yeah. Yeah. You considered attending. Yeah. You were considered to have attended them, but you do need to reapply, Anthony. And make it clear on the application whether you're applying as an alternate or as a regular member. Okay. And and because I know that I responded to the email that you sent. So those h say again, uh I received it. Yes.

Yeah. So, and and where do I find the application? Online that the applicants and whatever. Yep. Thank you. Yep. Okay. All right. Very good. So, that's uh let me get back to us here. Okay. Um so, we'll just wait for Mark to call in. Um I'm in. Oh, actually, yeah, I see you are on. Yep. Okay. I see you, Mark.

Okay. So our first um I I don't know if uh most of the members will recall that um Mark Dybal had uh uh come to us maybe over a year ago now um you know just as an information pass to um to give us a a sense of what the Hatchet Hatchets Hill project might enter u might be in involved with and uh the troubles they were having with sewers and septic and all that kind of stuff. and um he's moved the project quite far along now and he's just here now for an information pass. There's no decisions, no motions to be made, no nothing like that. Um but it's good information for us to have and um and see if we can help this project along um which will as you'll see provide some affordable housing significant doubling of the affordable housing in uh Old Line. So Mark, I'll hand it over to you.

Yeah. I I have no uh sophisticated agenda other than [snorts] just want to inform people about what's going on. And uh it's not [snorts] an easy business as I've said before. Thank God I'm not a developer. I'm just happen to own the land, you know. But uh anyway, the the the partners [snorts] that we had last year under contract uh were significant developers, but they backed out on a couple different deals because of interest rates being high and they didn't uh feasibility was not uh working in their direction. So we just basically ended. So, it's currently being marketed by um uh Christian Wakefield, their commercial uh multif family division. Uh it's, you know, getting quite a bit of uh uh positive reaction with the exception of uh nobody really in that business likes affordable housing, you know, having to do it. So, it's and we've kind of told them that and this is what I'm trying to what I would probably get your your uh position on is that 8-30G is the is the way if they want to do uh we've laid it out. They can do whatever they want. You know, if they want to do something else or whatever, they can do their own learning. But, uh 230 units is what we're trying to do. that that includes uh one bedrooms, two bedrooms, and a few threebedrooms uh units. That would be that we did in prior work with the architects uh previously that that that is a realistic possibility with the layout uh that it's and with the septic system that we've done, perk test, all the rest of it that it can accommodate that much. Uh it's

like the front portion that front portion of the one lot is where most of the uh buildings will be where the rear part of the 38 acres is where most of the uh septic system has a has an area that's particularly good. So, it's it's kind of a unicorn property in that we're not on an aquaore, but we're near an aquaore and we've got uh a 50 gallon a minute well and a 30- gallallon a minute well. And uh so it's potable water. We don't have a water problem. We're going to have to get together with Connecticut Water Company at some point because they have the the um uh franchise exclusively. And then on obviously on the septic side uh where I again try to tell people it's a blessing [snorts] in disguise because we had wanted to we're only 100 meters away from the hookup in East Line as you might recall with the there's a 60 foot right away that could go and and do that but we're we are not welcome in the East Lime uh septic or sewer system. So, while it would be a still an expensive proposition to do septic, it's a um it's a a capital expenditure. You're basically doing it one time where if you had a sewer, you're going to have an ongoing uh billing process by the uh you know, the to be out of UR. So, that's that's a whole another thing. So that's so we're we're trying to, you know, work people that are interested. Um I will I I don't have it in my in right in front of you, but I have a it's a beautiful uh sales brochure for um uh for the uh people in that did the work within Kushman Wakefield. So there's

they have beautiful photography and what about old lines about and the rest of it and how the they are definitely pushing the 8-30g uh and I obviously uh would it would yield 69 total units out of as to how many bedrooms they would be I don't know but it'd be 69 total units um that would be affordable you know that with the I don't know if everybody's familiar with the 15% of them having to be 60% of the median income and 15% % have to be 80% of the minimum median income maximum. And that's part of my my next question is that um where do we what number do we come up with? Because the average uh household income in Old Line is quite high. It's at $22,000 where the median income we have as of 2024 at 155,000. So th those numbers are quite large. uh that you know that we're trying to you know like it or not Old Lime is an affluent uh town and uh that's where some of the rent rolls and and I don't know if obviously everybody's aware of that electric boat recently purchased the rest of the um Crystal Mall with exception the Sears store and if you saw the press release they're they're hiring indoor hiring indoor relocating four to 5,000 employees into that location. It's going to become a campus um for electric boat for their engineers, administration, um some R&D sign, not nothing nothing having to do with you know building the sub. It's just strictly administration and office and and uh professionals. But

obviously 4 to 5,000 people 9 minutes away from exit 71 uh is a lot you know that's that's you know so I don't there's going to be a huge demand for where all these people are going to live because the the other people that they're replacing that have retired they're not leaving. it's kind of coming up and it's not just old line residents. It's going to be southeast uh Connecticut is going to be, you know, a a lack of housing that's already going to exist will be even greater. So, just to let you know what's kind of going on in the marketplace with that. So, I don't know if you have information where you have seen the median income, uh if that number is correct, if it's a little bit lower. I doubt if it's higher but it that's what we have come up with and that's you know that's if we go through the 8-30g it's can't be funible you know it's it's gone up quite a bit from 2020 census because that was obviously during co and people have gone back to work in full force in 2024 so that's that's why that number has jumped up from I think $122,000 to the 155. So Evidently, people had deferred income or or whatever it is, but that's the reporting number that I'm we're coming up with at this time. So, I don't know.

Yes. So, what I um what I sent you, Mark, was the um was just the 830G appeals list, which gives you the um number of units um that we have. But what I can send you is the uh the AMI figures for uh for a old lime, but we don't it's not an AMI figure for old lime. It's a AMI figure for New London County. That's how the HUD does it. So you don't need to worry about Old Lime's income. It's the AMI for New London County, which is in the 99,000 range.

Yeah. But that that's see this is where I get you know push back is that uh AMI for New London County it's it's not a HUD thing it's the state of Connecticut thing. So this is the 8-3ly a uh a pro a a a law that's in the state of Connecticut that's not a HUD related number. So that's why I want to use, you know, different numbers than that because quite frankly, it it becomes not feasible and it won't ever get built. I'll just lay it on the table for you just like that. It will never get built at if it's 99,000.

Well, I'm I'm going to tell you that the uh the state mandate is because of the HUD mandate. So it is a HUD directive. So it is 99ish thousands. I can get you the number exactly, but for a family of four. So that's for a family of four. So So that's um we're not looking to give apartments or to rent apartments primarily to a family of four. That's

So there's different tables for that. U Mark, I can I can talk to you offline about that and send you the right information because there are Connecticut state tables every year that come out which uh usually are in April that um dictate if it's a a single person, two two person, three person, four person or four plus people rentals versus ownership. And so yeah, that there's a whole table that comes out about that every year. And uh so um if that works in your favor as far as marketing the property, that would be great.

Well, that's not the concern [clears throat] right because it's not going to get built if it's 99,000. Okay. Well, I'll talk to you next week about it then. [clears throat] Yeah. I mean, we don't we don't decide the AMI. I'm sure you're aware. We don't decide the AMI here. It's it's not decided by town. Um it's it's it's not really up for discussion. It is it's an established figure that you know has to be used has to be referenced. Okay.

What is what is what do you think in the ranges if it's not 99 and possibly cannot ever be 155? Like what

I've seen it though. I I can I'll supply the numbers to you. For 2024, Jeff jumped quite a bit. It was at 120. Multiple sources had it at $122,000. 123 in between that uh in 2023. In 2024, it had jumped up to 155. So, I don't know if this 99 thing that you're coming up with, is that's a recent number or is that something that's older? I don't know. Uh it's it's been about that for the for the last couple of years. But u Mark remember this is New London County which encompasses New London. So you know that that is a serious demographic that draws the county down towards the lower AMI range very high population.

Yes. Most certainly. I'm I'm looking at it's a little confusing frankly to me on some of this. uh it's that the the information really isn't that available and simple. It's kind of like we're we're both kind of in the dark a little bit on this stuff. But anyways, I I'll just end it with that.

I love shooting in the dark. If you want to call me next week, I will definitely give you the and I'll send you I'll send you some information tomorrow um with tables and s such which are the latest publish published department of housing state of Connecticut tables that will outline the rental incomes uh minimums and maximums for people earning such incomes. Okay. And then the other term that we can always

we could go over with is the indistinguishable. You know, that's that's because I I don't know if these people want to make them exactly all the same or that they're just going to go with the indistinguishable because it's a it's a very fine line between uh it making sense and being being going forward. I mean, it's as simple as that. I'm just trying to, you know, I'd like to get these things built properly, looking great. Uh they're certainly needed in the in the area and uh it's right it's a it's a it's not an easy thing. No no

understood. We would appreciate I mean and we appreciate all your efforts but um but by law actually they actually do have to be indistinguishable. So just keep that in mind. [clears throat] Yeah. Okay. That's all I have. But thank you. Okay. And um and so that's great Mark. And so Kushman Wakefield is managing the uh sale of the property, correct? Okay, great. I I mean obviously if they if I get offers that are that are within the range that I want to accept them. Yeah, this time I'm I'm I'm uh hoping to either be a partner or to they can buy it outright from me. So we'll see. We'll see how it goes.

Okay. And as I recall, that included um so that included the septic field, the parking uh area and the units themselves and a central office facility. Yeah. The well again they can do whatever they want when they buy it, but it it's currently designed with a total of uh four buildings and a series of town homes. Yeah.

Uh town houses. And uh that would be uh that mix. But again, it's to the buyer what what would they uh what mix they everybody has their own version of wanting to do whatever they want to do. We we had done the exercise that 230 units could be possible to look good not be overwhelming on that site site location.

Does the current site plan does it enter from Hatchets Hill? The the road enter from Hatchets Hill or Four Mile? Yeah, exclusively on Hatchet's Hill. There's no left turn uh out of it to go through the the back way. It's strictly a one, you know, turn in and uh turn right to the highway. It's strictly that way because we've had people that were concerned about that before. And no, that's there's no reason to go through the back way of town. It's strictly uh people are going to get on the 95 one way or the other. It's closer to get to stop and shop in Flanders than it is to get to the uh um big Y. Yeah. So, does the road

in the current site plan, does the road extend off of the multif family parcel into the RU 40 or 80 parcel or does it is that reserved for septic? Uh the if I'd have to show it to you, but it's like a a high point is where the last building is and that kind of goes down a down the hill. The topography is difficult to say the least. Very difficult. That's

Yeah. And it's not as as we say, it's there's not too many corn fields [laughter] to left to to be able to put something on. That's easy. Uh but yeah, it goes uh it's almost like a football field where where it is. uh the the designated larger variety of where the septic will go and then some of the other locations have already been proven out like 25 years ago. So there's there's multiple and plenty available uh septic on it on the land. So but that that's all coming down the pike and with all the drawings and everything that goes with it. But um we've got a lot more information for them for people that are interested and uh we'll we'll release that individually when they uh get closer to interest. So, but I just wanted to say that I I want you know obviously uh we want to get this thing built. We want to get 69 units that are you know look great and everything else. We, you know, it's um there's plenty of of need in town and there's plenty of people that have, you know, asked me, hey, is this thing ever going to get built? And I'd like to have me or a friend or this or that or whatever. What they know somebody that could like to be in that and I'd like to be able to say yes. And right now I can't, you know, because we don't know.

Mark, what's what's the status as far as zoning and planning goes? Has the the the overall concept been approved or what's

No, we have the only thing we did last year was that we went before the planning commission and we had a we couldn't get a b a boundary uh with the alta survey that we completed that um and we had we actually gave a little bit of land to the town because it was the believe it or not beavers had uh um damned it all up and we couldn't get an accurate uh you know uh property line. So we basically gave that portion it's like an acre or something like that uh to the town. It's like a permanent conservancy kind of thing. Um so that's one thing that we did and we we were on that track to do but my partners uh didn't have the resources that they wanted to commit to it. So, I just kind of like, okay, that's time to go and uh that's when we parted ways. So, but uh I hope that uh we can get this thing done this time and we'll see how it goes.

Okay. Not it's not an easy business, I'll tell you that. [laughter] Not not here or in most parts. I like making hoses. I'm really good at that for 34 years. [laughter] I'm really good at that. Can somebody um please remind me what property uh specifically we're talking about? It's all back in there. Yeah, I'm very familiar with it. Yeah, Sheila, it's just off of uh if you go off of four mile river, left on Hatchets, uh or right on Hatchets, either one. Up Hatchets and then it'll be on the left.

It's right behind the uh office building that's on the corner. uh of four Mile River Road in Hatchesville. It's behind that. It goes up behind that and it's 38 acres. 38 acres. Wow. Okay. Yeah. All right. So, off of So, not the um not the highway exit side of Hatchets Hill, the other end. If you come off exit 71 and look straight ahead, Yeah. you're kind of looking straight at it. Yeah. There's houses on four mile river road that and it's be they're behind that. Oh, I got it. Okay.

It goes quite a quite a ways down there because it's long. Uh Okay. Four mile river. Gotcha. I was thinking the other Okay. I was thinking it's perfect for old line in that it's we're kind of on the border. We're kind of it's it's a uh you know from a standpoint it's zone multif family. We're not changing any zoning. It's zone multif family and it's you know designed for that. It's perfect for that. And uh but it's it's going to be expensive site work. We know that. So, it's just that a lot of these other things it's keeper expensive portions to get it built and then obviously some of the other stuff we we need to be um you know, you're not losing money on stuff. So, anyway, it is what it is.

I appreciate it. I just wanted to keep you up to date because I'm trying to get this thing going and uh we'll see how it goes. Well, we appreciate it. Yeah. Any questions from other members of the commission?

Uh th this is Anthony. I I have a question. I know that the FY2025 income limits have been published and they differ from 24. They introduced this concept of what's called an exception area. So, Old Lime is Old Lime Town is considered an exception area and there's adjustments that seems to be made to the uh income limits uh you know with families 1 through 8. And I I don't know a lot about it. I didn't know it seems this is something brand new and something that was introduced by an old appropriations act. Uh and I think it has to deal with high uh h uh areas where there's high housing or incomes. Uh and old line of course is a high income area. So, uh, I don't know anything about it, but it's something that, uh, I don't know if anyone else has seen the same data that I have and questioned it or done any research, which I haven't done the research, but is anyone else aware of this, the 2025 income limits and the reference to old line being an exception area?

Um, I'm not, Anthony, but I could check with Dominic tomorrow up up at DOH and see. That's a great Thank you for bringing that up. I appreciate I heard of it, but I'll I'll look it up. Yeah.

Yeah. And and and it seems like for a family of four, the low income on this chart is $99,750 for a family of four. And that's 80% of income limits. But again, um it's I've never seen this before for old lime. Uh I looked at I don't think this was in 24 either. It just seems to have been put on a 25 and it may be something that was introduced with the new administration. That's just total speculation. I I don't know, but I think we should look at it or the owner of the land and property or the developer should look at it too. So find out what this is. I'm not saying it applies. It doesn't apply. I don't know. It just I've never seen this before.

Okay. Great info, Anthony. Thanks. Uh welcome, Mark. I'll I'll talk to uh do tomorrow and get you uh maybe an updated version of that. So, see if that helps you out. That's great. I really appreciate it. Thank you. No worries. Well, thank you for the presentation and um we wish you best of luck. Me, too. I know you've been working on it so hard for so many years. So, we'll see what pans out, but sounds like a great Thanks.

All right. Good. You should take care. All right. Bye, Mark. Okay. Switch glasses here. All right. So, the um so that was the new uh business. Um anybody else have any comments on that or anything that you think we should follow up on from that discussion with others? Nope. Okay. Hearing none, we'll go on to uh any other Well, we're on new business. We might as well stick with that. Any other new business? No. Okay. I've just got a couple of updates on just recent meetings. Um, last week there was a meeting with the regional housing committee for Rivercog. Um, and they did a presentation by the, if I get this right, the Connecticut Affordable Housing Committee, which is a it's not a Connecticut state thing. It's a it's a nonprofit uh thing. And um they are having a conference November 17th and 18th. Um a lot of it is virtual or most of it is virtual. Um it looks like it's free to sign up. It says on the on the link it says 0 to $50. So I don't know what that mean. I think $50 is probably if you're in person, zero if it's virtual. It's a although it's a two-day thing, you can sign up for different um you know one-hour sessions if you will. And so there are a number of different things in there around funding sources and also around um what other people have done like kind of like a roundt thing on you know here's our success here's our failure kind of things. So it looked very interesting. I'll send that link out to everybody. Um I think it's open to anybody that wants to sign up because I registered with zero problems and I'm not a member of this uh Connecticut affordable housing conference. So, um it might be

interesting if you have nothing to do before Thanksgiving, [laughter] you can spend some time browsing that. Um there's also second thing on around uh uh Connecticut housing groups on CT169 strong CT169 strong.org. They are circulating now a petition to try to get Governor Lamont to um think about this new bill uh the new revised HB50002 which Lamont had vetoed before. Um, as Sean updated us a month ago that it's now in talks where Rojos is only there only Democrats involved, which whatever, but um they're not getting any they're not soliciting any opinions from the towns um at all. So, it's just the senators doing this themselves. Um, and basically what they're doing, according to Shawn, he thinks, is like redlinining just what was in the bill that Lamont didn't like and just taking that part out. Um, most of the towns, well, every single town, 169 of the 169 towns in Connecticut objected to this bill as is. [laughter] Um, thankfully, Governor Lamont vetoed it because both sides of the House and Congress, they um, actually approved it. So anyhow, uh most of it was to do with the fair share aortionment um of which you recall old lime would be um responsible for 422 new affordable housing units in within 5 years. So um that was physically impossible as we know

422 affordable units which would mean under 832 be 1500 [laughter] units. So, um, so anyhow, uh, all 169 towns, uh, petitioned against it back then, but, now, um, there are individual petitions you can sign on their website if you, you know, personally object to the way that they're doing it with no transparency. We don't know what's in the bill. Um, as you recall earlier this year, um, they dropped it on Memorial Day weekend and they dropped it on the Sunday, Memorial Day weekend. Um, and it was 97 pages and nobody had a chance to read it and then they voted on it on Tuesday morning. So, yeah. So, [laughter] so, um, so anyhow, if you get a chance, you might want to just peruse that website as well and make your own judgment. I don't care what you do, but ct169.org org. Um the other website um I will send it out to you. It's the Connecticut Affordable Housing Conference and um you know they are they are affiliated very closely with the um desegregatect.org which is the what they call pro-ousing. I don't know anybody that's anti-housing, but they're they call themselves the pro-ousing commission and that's the Yale funded people. And um so they are uh pushing for um the the fair share that that's the people that created the fair share, the organization, not the people, the organization that created the fair share quotas uh for each town. So anyhow, they also have a website called desegregatect.org. So, if you would like to go to both of those websites, it, you know, would be good to get up to speed on all of those things as as these things heat up.

[clears throat]

Um the second thing on regional housing committee for Rivercog is we sp talked about in October just a tad but was the Lisk uh which now I forget what it stands for but it's a Lisk is a n Lisc is a national organization that provides funding for affordable housing uh through loans grants and other means of connecting people with either like in our case chaffa Connecticut housing authority finance authority or other organizations that provide financing for these types of investments for people. So where let's say Mark is having trouble finding somebody that says, "Oh, if it's $99,000 AMI, I'm not going to do it, but if it's $155,000, I'll do it." Um, Lisk could come in there and find a partner for them to subsidize or grant or loan, you know, money at a reasonable rate or a lower rate to uh to get those 69 units funded. Um, so I al I also connected him with that organization. So there's lots of funding things out there. It's just trying to be more creative other than just trying to apply for a grant, you know. So that's uh there are definitely organizations out there that are funded by higher authorities [laughter] like uh Soros or Gates and all these other people that have money that are willing to lend it at very low rates to get these things through. So, u having said all that, I'll send you out the links to those things. Um, but if you have availability the 17th or 18th, just keep that in mind on this one conference. Um, and I think that's all I had on new business. All right, let's any questions on that? [clears throat] Okay, let's move on to old business and let's get a project update on the driveway.

So from

uh Tom Metaf and I met with uh Mike McCarthy who's the fire chief. He's the statute said he has to pass on our uh on the the driveway issues with respect to the access for emergency vehicles. And he basically said that a 15 ft wide drive, which is what is there now, was fine and a turnaround was fine and that no uh sistern would be needed. And he's he he said he'd be happy to write a letter to that effect. And Tom Metaf said that he would I thought what he was saying is I'll send you a letter the form of which basically you can review and and put on your letter head and sign. He he what he sent to the fire chief was a lot of [snorts] information and it it wasn't in the form of a letter that he could review and sign.

It's an engineer letter.

It was an engineer letter and it was a little hard to understand. So, uh, I thought he was, you know, what I had thought he would do and was basically a letter we, you know, we we approve what you've suggested and I thought he was going to attach a survey with the, you know, the house, the well location, the septic location, the driveway location, and uh the the turnaround easement, all of which, you know, an, you know, the attorney could use to um draft any easement. documents and agreement doc, you know, just all laid out there. But he did, you know, that hasn't happened. And I've

uh tried at least three or four times to get in touch with Tom and none of which really have succeeded. I I don't know what else he's doing or uh I mean, he was on vacation or he was away for a while. He was away for that week. Yeah. And now he's back. And do you know him, Jim? I do not. No. Okay. He's been here a long time. He's been with the project for years and years and he does a good job, but there's some dynamic I don't understand and I I don't, you know, I don't want to piss him off. So, I'm trying to just encourage him. Do you think I should call him or Jim, put some muscle on it? [laughter]

Uh, that Yeah. Why don't Yeah. So, um, do it because there is a time frame involved. That's what I mean. I mean, we need we need need to have a we do have a time frame involved just catching up to us pretty quick. So, yeah, if you wouldn't mind just be happy to also. Yeah. I just don't want to make it I don't want to sell you that. Well, he knows he will know who you are. I don't know. Yeah, I'll I'll give him a call and then just see. But, um, let's clarify the timeline then. So, we've already missed our October and November um for zoning. Um so, what are we thinking now with uh um I mean Jan, it's got to be I have no idea. Possibly be December.

I mean, I think it's he needs and Dick uh need to produce a survey with, you know, all that on it. And uh Right. I mean, and you know, the I think it I mean, when I was with the the fire marshall, you know, one of the things, they're going to want to know how they're going to who's going to maintain the driveway. Mhm. And it would be it would be nice to have Habitat and Hope. Mhm. Say what the deal is. I don't see any downside to them doing it. It's not going to be legally binding. Yeah. They can put all kinds of exculpatory language in there.

Okay. And uh uh that would be, you know, because if the planning is what's the deal, you could say, well, here's the deal. Yeah. So, if you if you guys recall back in September, I think this was that uh uh we spoke with uh Carla Lungquist at at Habitat, the ED executive director, Amina at Hope, and uh Sarah Ller, the executive director of Habitat. were all on the phone together. Uh they were, you know, kumbaya. Everybody was on the same page. Uh but what they want and they're they at that point they said, "Oh yeah, we're going to

we're going to meet." Yeah. So they met offline to do anou that hope is going to transfer the two existing properties to Habitat. And so Habitat will own all four properties now. Um and then that would only be habitat that's responsible for the driveway to make it easier. Yeah. But subsequently they don't want to do that memorandum of understanding until they get the site set up. So Habitat is not just ending up with two houses and we bulk on the Mccullik properties, you know, so the town bulks on the properties. I would so

I would put it to Habitat and say we need you to to commit to maintaining this as part of our package as part of our agreement. Yeah. We can't for unless you agree to maintain this driveway. We're also donating the land to you. Yeah. So, and you know, you know, I don't know exactly how it works. I mean, shared driveways are, you know, there's a statute about it, but they're adding on to an existing Yeah. driveway and I don't I don't think it's out of line to ask them to maintain a driveway that's going to become theirs anyway. Yeah. But they can say, you know, to the extent it is conveyed to us, you know, this is not buying us. I mean, right,

you know, this is effect only when we take ownership. I mean, they could do that high and low, but uh Okay, that's more than Okay. and and uh we already had previously gotten approval that gravel was fine, right, for that or preferred actually even they said I think was the wording. Okay. All right. I'll call Sarah tomorrow. Yeah. They're not willing to do that. We have a we were willing to do. Yeah.

Yeah. No, they they were not not unwilling. Uh they just uh it was between hope and habits at for like what that was going to look like. Um, so, okay, any questions on that from the Zoom callers? Yeah, I I'm just um I was trying to jot some things down as I I continue to learn and wrap my brain around the different things that um are involved with all that we're trying to do. Um you had said, Fred, that you met with um it was an engineer that said that they would be willing to put in writing that a stern is not needed at that property.

That was the uh fire chief. Oh, okay. Mike McCarthy. And he he was, you know, it's two houses. He asked that we put in a limitation about the square footage. And uh the head of habitat said not a problem. Uh you know it just uh the fire chief was concerned that he didn't put some McMansions up there which would increase the need for water. But as long as they're small houses he said I don't have a problem and Habitat has no problem. They you know they they don't intend to build big houses. So, [snorts]

but what need So, at this point, we're trying to do everything we need to do to go to planning and zoning. And part of that is a letter from the fire chief and the subdivision application, you know, and a a survey. And with that, I think we're we're ready to go before planning and zoning, but just it's taking a little bit to get what we need.

Okay. And so from the engineers, what we're waiting on, Sheila, is that that sort of summary of of findings, if you will, and the uh the survey. And once we get those two things from him, that then uh McCarthy can look at and say, "Yep, that looks good." Um, and then we get the uh maybe a letter from the board of directors or Sarah Luffler from Habitat that says to the extent this property is conveyed to us, we will maintain this driveway at 15 ft, you know, blah blah blah. Um, then I think those would be the two pieces that were missing. Well, two, it's more like 10, but in two two sections. [laughter]

Yeah. And how much time do we need um to get on the agenda for planning? Oh, they're pretty flexible, but it would really be zoning. We only have to go to one, right? We only really have to go to Okay, so it's zoning. Yeah, we did discover that in the meantime that Yeah, we only have to do one, but you know, I think they have one meeting a month. So, uh, and you have to I think you have to files. So, there there there's certain, you know, it's not like you just file it. So yeah, you have to get on the agenda, right? There's a certain number of days that

we know [clears throat] to be we know people [laughter] that's off the Is there anything? [laughter] Is there anything any of us can do like once we have that information? Is there anything um that assistance is needed on in you know making sure that we meet all those requirements we you know get our request for the to be on the agenda in a certain number of days and to get it I know there's like it's got to be publicized in certain ways or in certain places. Um is there anything that Yes.

to help with that? That that was goes back to my next question which is the applicant is are we the applicants still who is the town of old mine town of mine. Okay. Yeah. And will the will uh one of these two engineers are they going to appear at the meeting or Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. Hopefully both of them would. Okay. Uh Tom Medcap has offered and I think we do will do a good job in actually filling out the subdivision application. Uh and then and the attorney Mike Kerry, he generally kind of just periphally reviews these these things as well.

And then there's uh the the zoning department here in town hall. are good at directing, you know, there are certain notices that need to be filed in the I think it's the uh New London day and I think they take care of that. And then the last time I uh I had to find file notice to the butters. So that was okay. There's like 11 of butters and you know just have to and three were returned unknown address. Yeah. So, we had to uh that's a little bit of uh writing names on little cards, but uh I can handle that. We have the list now. So, yeah.

All right. Well, happy to help with that when that time comes. Okay. Thanks, Sheila. I appreciate that. Um so, I should we just when I talk to him tomorrow, hopefully she would just say we got to do this in January. That's it. Yeah, I would say you know what's preventing us from is there anything we can do is I don't just find the date and say January 12th need to be on the agenda is what's preventing us.

Yeah. So September 26 is uh the year 2026 is the year you know that these properties need to be given. [laughter] Yes. set aside as affordable housing. And so, you know, it seemed like a long time ago, a couple years ago, but [laughter] but now it's very short time. So, and and plus we need to spend our the DARPA the DRAPA funds DARPA funds and and that will that will involve sending out a RFP, right? So, uh and then the work actually has to has to happen or has to start. Yeah. So yeah,

September or December? Uh ARPA is December. Uh but the Mccullik agreement is September. Um but it that should because the town has already uh um assigned it as affordable and the lawyers have all signed off on that transition with the memor memorandum of understanding to habitat. That seems like it's a solid deal. So it's already done. So that September deadline may not mean anything anymore. Um but the ARPA funds definitely you know is another target target date to keep in mind. Um but that'll happen because that goes very quickly as you know. So once once the work starts

like for instance is this this is a question maybe not uh actually this for this group the cost of Tom and Dick comes out of those funds specifically. No, no, that's right out of our budget. Out of town budget that they see. Okay. Yeah, for right now that's out of the budget. The site work um this is like bug flying around. The site work specific to that site specifically is um out of the ARPA funds and it could be the other site as well. Mckimmick if we kimick if we I'm call McKim Kimick if we ever get over there.

So yeah, Kimmick and Grand View could also come out of the Arpaphone. So the site preparation work and all of that to whatever we can do to help defay some of the costs and get them started. Yeah. On it. Okay. Yep. Um so that could all be used out of the ARP funds. Yep. The road also. Mhm. I was like sending the road first and for Yep. Absolutely. Okay.

All right. Good. All right. Good update. So I will call Sarah. see if we can get her to get the board to send us something. Uh to the extent of we get the property, we will maintain this driveway. And then um for um uh Tom Metaf, I'll just give him a buzz and see what what time frame we're thinking we can nail down around January, if not sooner. Okay. from okay just taking notes there okay let's see one call the other thing we wanted to discuss if there's nothing else on that is just the uh the the chair co-chair uh situation so we used to have uh for those of you that were here before we had a chair in Michael vice chair which was myself and Michael basically did everything and [laughter] and then I filled in for him when he wasn't uh was on vacation. Um we went to the co-chair model um during the last year because he was rolling off and he knew he was rolling off and then I uh was moving to North Carolina and so similar in that process but he didn't know when I was moving and I didn't know when I was moving so it was kind of iffy. [laughter] So, we went with the co-chair model so we wouldn't have to have a midterm, you know, election, [laughter] whatever. So, Fred and I have been working together as co-chairs. Um, and as we we've talked about before, Fred's handling a lot of the project in most of the project stuff, and I'm handling handling a lot of the administrative stuff. Um, so I don't know what everybody thinks about the different models, but when we go to uh February

1st of next year when we have new people on boarded and uh and I roll off, we're going to need to have either this model right now or a different or [clears throat] back to the old model, chair, vice chair. Uh I personally, you know, think that the old model is is better only because I'm a military person and I like a single point of accountability, but but it's worked out great between Fred and I because we have set up established, you know, uh roles and so and um you could also do that with the chair vice chair role, you know, it doesn't matter, but um so just eager to get uh people's thoughts on that so that when we get new applicants in and Fred and I are thinking about who to recommend for approval to the board of selectmen in January that uh we could, you know, get that straightened out. So, give me your thoughts on that.

Uh this is Anthony. Um I have a question. Um can you hear me, Jen? Sure. Yeah. Yep. It's just a clarification. when um I had my last 2-year term renewed and I think it wasn't just me, I think it was everybody because we had been in service and had previously made applications and they were reviewed. We did not have to make an application. So, I was wondering what changed that everybody had to put in uh new applications that that's a change from the past. So, I was just wondering what caused it or is it

Oh, no. You should have had to put in an application, but [laughter] if you didn't renew. Yeah. For renewal. Yeah. You should you should have had to because it's totally up to the board of selectmen each period to determine who is on their uh commissions going forward. So, uh, let's just let's just say you're a complete, you know, mess up or whatever and you you just you can't just continue your term. You have to renew your term. You have to reapply for your term.

Oh, okay. Uh, that that's what I did last time. So, uh, and there's three of us whose terms expire this year, we all have to send in applications and then anyone from the public who wants to get on has to send in an application. I That's correct. Yeah. It's a competitive bid if you will each year each term rather. All right. Very good. I appreciate that clarification. Thank you. No worries. No worries. It didn't happen two years ago. And if that's what we have to do all No problem. Interesting. I had to do it. [laughter] Well, that's fine. I've done it before so it's easy for me to do. Thank you very much.

Cool. Thanks, Anthony. And congratulations on your retirement, I hear.

No, that's not quite true. It's like, you know, someone No, I'm actually still uh You're right. I did write you. I'm transitioning. So, I've, you know, reduced my work schedule for let's say I'm working still 35 hours or 40 hours a week, but because of state law, I can only be paid for 19.9 hours. So, it's a kind of an interesting thing and I'm trying to transition the organization and then um offer my services in a limited way as a contracting officer for large modernization projects that we do. But, so I'm still still going to the office but fewer days and the rest of it's remote. But, thank you very much because it's kind of like semi-retired. So, that's good. I appreciate that. Thank you for your acknowledgement. work for overtime, not summer over time. [laughter]

Right. Okay. Any other any thoughts on the chair, vice chair versus co-chair model?

This is Anthony. I I like the co-chair. I mean it uh divides the labor and uh people can have specialty like you're a good administration and Fred might be different in uh doing um oversight uh dealing with regulations and uh you know city officials. So I think it kind of separates the responsibilities and it balances the workload better. That's my thought. So I think it's working pretty good as it is right now. Is it [laughter]

it's terrible? No, I mean uh uh I I think it's I'm very flexible and you know I like to hear from anyone about you know participating. you know, I you know, I think some of our new members are enthusiastic and have a lot of experience and I'd like to get them involved and uh and you know, take from take from each what they're they're good at, you know, and what they're interested in. So, I anyone has any thoughts, let me know.

Yeah, I I I um I can't really speak. I mean, the co-odel seems to work work fine and and and also to Jen's point, I think, you know, you could also have a chair and a vice chair and divide up those those duties. Um I I came on to the committee um and I'm sure that this is going to be the case at some point, but I came on uh under the impression that there was much to do and so everybody I'm not suggesting that there isn't much to do and that was wrong. I it it seems to me like just given where everything stands right now there's a lot of onh holdness. Um I what I would like to see going forward regardless of the model or who's holding those roles is um just divvying up the work because I would imagine as some of these projects actually do start to move forward um there are things along the way that that we would have to really be on top of and um [clears throat] so

you know I'm I'm open I'm open to any any role that I take on on a committee. I just want to ensure that I can do it justice because I I don't like to, you know, overpromise and underdel when I uh have all the boxes falling on top of my head from the closet that I've chosen not to look into for the last two months and then everything happens on one night. Um but I the model doesn't matter to me. I think it's how the work is is divided. Yeah, I would agree with that. Right. Yeah. I think once there is more work, you're absolutely right, that will become more important. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I think I think the most important thing with town hall and these other commissions uh is and not not necessarily the people we hire like Tom and Dick, but um but the interactions with zoning and the interactions with uh Anita in finance. So the interactions with Katie, you know, there I think there does need to be more of a single point of contact with them because they do get inundated by every single commission and board, you know, and then if there's multiple people like we've already Fred and I have already confused Katie and uh the IT guy and [laughter] you know about different things and so uh there can only be one owner of the IT mailbox, you know, so that's that's a you know a thing. We tried to have two, but there could only be one. And so there's only one key card, so you know, only one of us can have it. So there's different things like that that there does need to be a single point of accountability with otherwise we drive town hall mad, you know, for no reason. Yeah. So, so on that side, one of those people will have to be assigned that thing, you know, and so um or you know, split that up as Fred and I have. Fred manages kind of town hall. I do the IT mailbox and that's it. So, you know, so that's how we've managed it. But, you know, going forward, you know, whoever the chair, vice chair or co-chairs are, we'll need to just make sure those are clear delineations. So, we're not sending five people to town hall to ask for our mail or or pay a bill.

Even questions. Oh, yeah. We're questioning Katie. Poor Katie. Katie is just like she's amazing. And um but she gets pummeled like I can just imagine the amount of questions Fred and I give her that every other commission gives her. [laughter] Yeah. So by the way I checked our mailbox and there was nothing really. Okay. Yeah. Funny. [clears throat] Was that your role friend? [laughter] I sent him to the mailbox.

No but um but so the other thing is the budget right? So when the budget, so when the finance uh uh uh board commission is going to put together the budget, they start in January basically in February. It has to be done in April. It's got to be approved by the board of selectmen and the town. Yeah. And all that. So um all that needs to be submitted and everything, but then those bills need to be paid and everybody needs to keep up with them and one of us has to approve them. So in Fred and I case, either of us can approve them right now. Um, so it makes it handy when if I'm out of town or Fred's out of town, you know, and that kind of thing. So we can approve them. Otherwise, Martha has to approve them and and she doesn't like to do that. So [laughter] because then we get emails in the email box that I hardly ever check. [laughter] So anyhow, it's a long story, but um but there's just a lot of behind the scenes things that need to be done um you know that aren't just the agendas in the minutes.

Sure. Sure. So, um, but yes, so Sheila, to your point, as long as the rules are are clear, uh, either model will work. Okay. So, so what I'm hearing is we'll leave it to Fred is the next chair [laughter] to, uh, to figure that out. And, um, once we get some, um, new people on board, you know, everybody can make a decision around that. [snorts]

Um, but so that'll be good. All right. So, thanks. Uh, so Lori, did you have any feedback? No. Okay, you're on mute, but that's okay. All right. Um, okay, good. So, that's all everybody's online, right? Yep. Okay, Jim, anything else on that? No. Okay. All right. Um, well, I don't have any further agenda items. Does anybody else have anything else that they wish to discuss? Nothing here. No. Okay. Can I get a motion to adjurnn? I make a motion to adjurnn. Thank you, Anthony. Thanks, Anthony. Second, Sheila. Second. Yep.

Great. Okay. 606. We're journ. That was longer than I thought it was going to be, but it's awesome meeting. Thanks. Nice talking to everybody and have [clears throat] a happy Thanksgiving and happy Thanksgiving in December.