Planning and Zoning Meeting - Regular Meeting

will take a motion to I'll take a motion to approve the minutes. I'll make a motion and a second. I'll second. Uh, everybody in favor? I

oppose. None. The motion passes. I have one open the floor to public comments at 604. This portion is for comments on the items not scheduled for public hearing this evening. Speakers are asked to state their name and address for the record. There any comments from crowd? No further comments. Properties are now closed at 605. We'll now open the public hearing for reszoning request RZ04 2026 at 6:05 p.m. We have a staff presentation. staff to prevent the reasonzoning.

Okay, this is ours. Did you hear me? It was doing that on Monday. You gota you got to speak up a little bit. Can you hear me now? I think it's just turned down. It's okay.

Okay. RZ042026 reszoning of 25.96 plus or minus acres located along West Main Street. Applicant and property owner is Greenup Holdings LLC Bruce Bellington. Um request is from Agriculture in Lafayette County to I1. Um this is subject to would not take effect unless the subject property is annexed into the city. Um we did have our public hearing on that that was this Monday. So they will vote on that at the next meeting. So it will be contingent upon that. Um it is from a to I1 and I've included the application location map public notice affidavit of publication a letter to the neighbors within 185 ft addresses of the neighbors that were sent the letter and the code of ordinance. Um the board of alder meeting leading will be on Monday, April 27th and staff does recommend approval of the reszoning from agriculture to I1. I now invite the applicant or their representatives to speak. Speakers are asked to state their name and address for the

object. Okay.

You included the letter. So, the first one I sent out did not have that, but I sent it in the second. So, it should be the one I gave you today. Dr.

Yes. Thank you. You fine? Yes,

we'll now open the public hearing for comments specifically related to the reszoning request reszoning RZ04206. 6 25.96 plus or minus acres along West Main Street. Parcel number 23-1.0-02- Z-001.0000 propose zoning change current agricultural papia county proposed I1 industrial

speaker should state their name and address for the record. Is there anyone who wishes to speak in favor of this resoning request? Go ahead and step on the third. All right, guys. I'm Robbie Rucker. I actually live in uh Lee Summit. My address is 7706 Teal Court. I am the CEO of Advanced Industries. So the zoning request you've got is actually for us to purchase one. So we are looking to purchase that land to be able to expand facilities inside of Odessa. Without this purchase, it will severely restrict our ability to grow. Um we're a defense company. You guys know us here at town. We're the largest employer in Lafayette County and I want to keep it that way. Without ability to grow, some of the things that we're going to have to do are going to get restricted. We're already restricted. Just put up a building with the help of Derek last year. We're now leasing a building and we've already outgrown every footprint got. So what I want to do is I want to continue to bring jobs to this area to develop that growth and to continue to be a good participant as the largest employer in this area. Um we need this land. So the request that we've got with the contingencies is is what's going to allow us to be able to build on that property. what we're going to look for not just today but future it should give us the ability to

you know at least double size um you guys pay attention what's going on in the world right now the need for the products we manufacture and what we support and you know from a production standpoint It's it's the backbone of what's happening on right now. Tell you that some of the programs that we're on are not things I can talk about. Some of the programs we want to be on, I can't necessarily talk about, but I can tell you it it essentially ensures our freedom. So, this property is going to allow us to keep doing that, providing that support out of Odessa. Without it, we'll be forced to look at different options. So that's the request that's that's help grow and continue to pray at good jobs, good paying jobs and stability. That's all I got.

Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Is there anyone else that wants to speak in favor of this? All righty. Uh, is there anyone who wishes to speak in opposition of the resoning request? I'm Timothy von England and uh we have the farm at 7717 uh Golden uh Road there. And uh I guess since we're we were just across the from the railroad tracks from that track of land, we'd kind of like to know what what's going to be going on there. And I I did hear you say that there's going to be jobs that'll come out of it. I'm not against jobs. And I'm not against, you know, having defense stuff going on too. U but I I don't know what's going to be there and I don't know what I know there there's water that runs down from there onto our farm and I would like to know what kind of chemicals will be involved there and that kind of stuff. Uh, I guess it's just I have more questions than than anything tonight because I'm I just learned about this. Miss Neil sent me a letter which I appreciate and uh we'd like to make sure that the land there that has been in the family for a long time has kept, you know, ethologically sound. So that's that's my only comment. Thank you, sir. Is there anybody else that would like to speak in opposition?

All righty. This public hearing is now closed at 6:13 p.m.

Is there any further discussion from the commission on resigning request R04 2026?

Is there anything you can't say towards what is question? So the operations that we have today don't um have any chemicals that what we do is we build aluminum containers or or missiles and weapons. Um we've been producing those here in town since like 1970s 1960 years. Um everything that we have from a a chemical standpoint is controlled not only by OSHA standards but also the state uh standards. Uh and we've been we've been we've been producing the containers and some some is this the same way for 40 years. Uh so from a chemical standpoint there's there's nothing there and there's there's there's a number of regulations and things that you have to follow to make sure that that nothing is is going to happen uh just from just standards uh and things of practice from a facility standpoint. uh what we need is we need additional space to build uh to build these. So it'll be welding facilities, assembly facilities and then uh places to put CNC machines. So essentially aluminum manufacturing. It's the same exact operation that we've got on first street, same exact operation got driving, same that we've got on seventh street now. Um and then there would also be uh storage of materials obviously that you see probably in town where we've got uh exterior guards that have balloon stacks of material uh that are fed up uh as well as potentially warehouse storage things developed to that. Um what's planned to be built right now? Nothing

to be honest with you. Um, we know that there's a need and I'm going to to put a plan together to build something. What space would be used would be small to start with. We're obviously a business, so we've got to make sure that whatever we invest, there's a a return on that. There's a long-term program, etc. Um, so at at the beginning I could see potentially 20 to to 40,000 square feet of manufacturing space. Um, with the potential to get up to maybe, you know, uh, you know, I think maybe 200,000, but that would be that's like pine sky longterm, you know, I don't even think that's big as the MFA facility that's right next door. You got more space there. Um, but what it does and and this is probably more information you guys need, but if you look at what we've done in the last year and a half of Advanced Industries, I've hired over 130 people. So, we've increased from about 150 people in town to we're over 280. So, we're we're creating good paying jobs. There's there's things that we do to ensure that those jobs are high paying. if if we're able to to win this work, if we're able to keep growing, I could I could see that that space will allow us to get that to maybe 500. I also think that that space is going to allow us to relieve some of the pressures of our growth in town with uh additional space for storage, additional space for manufacturing that uh parking spaces, things like that can be absorbed. So, frankly, it it does a lot to not only allow us to grow, allow us to invest in in this area, continue to grow in this area, but I think it's going to improve other parts of uh of where we're at. So, one thing I was

wondering, do you manufacture the aluminum or or is it you buying the aluminum and then putting it together at some sort?

We buy it. So everything is all raw materials purchased. So there's a aluminum there's aluminum uh forging houses and aluminum sheet mills things like that buying raw product. So it's all it's when we say manufactur it's taking a piece of aluminum cutting it to size or building it to size welding it together. So, another question. What What kind of noise were coming from the A background? Um, we're in the middle of town. So, it's pretty good. Um, machines are quiet. The loudest thing, frankly, I think we get over 80 dB the loudest, but you want to come over. I'll I'll let you see what no problem see what it is because it's it's not going to be disruptive the way we have we have facilities that sit next to homes within 100 yards. appreciate your information. You're more than welcome to come down. I will say I'll take there any questions. I more so just have concerns about the foot traffic outside of Maine because I mean if you go down Maine that's how I get to my house no large trucks are allowed to go down. So on that side of Maine once you go down that

hill and we're annexing and then that road stops and they count right because like I can see exactly where they because they tested we got that new street paving thing like that's where they tested resurfacing street up. I don't know. I'm not aware.

That's where they did. Um, so which is right over there. So I am concerned about that intersection right there and everything just with higher traffic and everything like that. So I think that's something we need to take into consideration if we are looking at potentially in the future having 500 people coming to work in this area. That's going to be a lot of traffic on Main Street. Plus, we're also looking at the Hill project right here potentially being a lot of traffic. You know, one point, this was one of my concerns is that like Ninth Street right there. Sean and I have talked about this in the past when I was a private citizen about well, but you know, about how Bank Street will connect eventually to business 70 right there. And so, you know, I think that's something that we definitely need to consider as long-term action road to how that traffic could increase.

I I can speak to that. I guess um it's definitely an area of focus for the city. Um obviously funds are not easily accessible for us. We only have so much to work with when it comes to transportation improvements, but we've already kind of started very early preliminary discussions about um some type of private part public private partnership to um improve that area. Not just for this project, but that is um per our our zoning map. that is our future industrial area that the city itself is trying to bring more jobs again beyond this project. We're trying to attract industrial clients to that um area of our community and the road is um probably the number one thing that would be able to allow us to do so. So, we recognize that it's a it's very important that really all three of those roads um are improved. Um but to provide you with the timeline and how soon we would be able to do that, I couldn't I could not do that. But um West Main, Action Road, and um Reich Road are all in need of um repair generally speaking, but also upgrades to be able to um support the industrial growth and industrial customers that would be out in that area. Any other questions or comments? Can I get a motion for reszoning RZ042026? I'll move that uh move that we approve the reszoning of RC4

2026 from agriculture to light industrial as requested. I get a second. Okay. There any discussion needed? roll. Matt, Mary Se David. Yes.

All righty. So, by my account, that motion is approved. We'll now open the public hearing for reasonzoning request RZ052026 at 6:24 p.m. last issue reszoning request. Okay, this is RC052026 of their reszoning application 32.932 plus or minus acres located along West Main Street. App and property owner are the same. Greenup Holdings LLC Bruce Bellington. Um, this one is in the city limits already, so not contingent uponation. Zoning request is from a to I1 and I have included the application, location map, public notice, affidavit of publication, the letters to neighbors within 185 ft, addresses of the neighbors, and the code of ordinance. And this meeting will go to the board also on Monday, April 27th and staff recommending requests from A to I1.

Thank you.

I now invite the applicant or their representative to speak. Speakers are asked to state their name and address for the record. All right. Uh, we'll now open a public hearing for comments specifically related to the resoning request. Reszoning RZ05 2026 32.932 plus or minus acres along West Main Street. Parcel number 23-1. 0- 02-1-0000-44 dot 010 proposed zoning change current a proposed I1 light industrial speaker should state their name and address for the record is there anyone who wishes to speak in favor of this resoning request you want to speak again But thank you. Is there anyone who wishes to speak in opposition of this resoning request? All righty. Public hearing is now closed at 6:26 p.m. Is there any further discussion from the commission on reszoning request RZ052026?

Now I always have something to ask. Um, so on this one, since it backs up to houses, would I know we talked about this, but I can't remember what we talked about. Does that mean that there needs to be a fence put in to block that? That's a good question. Because if I remember correct, we just talked about this and there would have to be a fence that would block the view that the builder would have to put in since it's backing directly up to houses.

Well, what we were talking about was in regards to storage containers. So, if they had storage containers and our ordinance that we've been working on is approved and we keep the fencing language in there, then yes. But to our current ordinance, um, I don't know that it would require fencing at this time. Um, I do have the concern about I love jobs. Not trying to say anything about that, but I do worry about houses and kids and So being a defense

as long as there's a fence there like that's what I was more so just concerned about. I didn't want like some little kid to like live right there and be like oh just wander down the hill. Yeah. You know we obviously that's stay outside the propert that big hill there. Yeah. So when we build that's actually the long department that's uh that's our facility from a security standpoint. So less people wandering and more people stopping or best insurance. Yes, we

just just wanted to make sure. Yes, I want to do it once. All righty. Any more discussion or comments that we will talk about?

All right. Make a motion for reszoning RZ052026. So, I'll make the motion that uh we approve resing of uh from agriculture to white to industrial of the property we're talking about and the file number RZ052026 uh to be approved as applied for. Can I get a second?

Of course. Awesome. Do we have any uh further discussion? Seeing none, Kenny, can you call a roll, please? Matt, I Mary, yes. Bill. Oh, no. Bill. Seth. Yep. David, yes. By my account, motion is approved. Next item is a recommendation of an ordinance accepting sanitary sewer infrastructure on 9inth Street Terrace. Sha

can I get a motion for this ordinance accepting the sanitary sewer instruction? Oh

I can still speak to it. Okay. So, um this is an ordinance to accept sewer infrastructure on ninth street terrace. Um per regulations. This will uh this goes in front of PNC for your recommendation and then it'll go to the board of alder. Uh this is the act it's actually the only private sewer that we have left or remaining in the area or in the community. So, uh the problem with having private sewer when we have a public sewer um uh department is that the owners in that area, I don't I don't remember the exact year when that those houses really went in. It wasn't as part of a subdivision. So, they kind of just periodically popped up. uh and at the time there was an agreement amongst those who lived there that they could connect to the guy who lived at the end of the h end of the road and something like that. So um it creates problems for the people who live there now. They were not a part of the original agreement um and that sewer needs to be maintained and it creates a a liability for those property owners who are really responsible for privately maintaining the sewer. but it would require collection of all of the uh neighbors in the in the neighborhood to then come together to try to privately pay for that sewer. So, uh just in uh I guess good good um will if you will, the city is willing to take on that private sewer and um we've spoken with all of the property owners. um only three of the property owners on that street actually will require an easement. Those property owners have all agreed to and signed off

on the easements which I think are included in your packet. Um so the final stage to get this to where the city of Odessa can maintain and take care of the sewer on N Street Terrace um would be this ordinance. So, we have the ability, we have the skill set, um we have the staff, we have all of the things um to be able to take care of it to where those who um didn't create that original agreement when the homes went in uh they do not have necessarily that ability or um makes it very difficult for them to be able to take care of it and all infrastructure ages. So, any questions? I'm sorry.

I'm supposed to take my Oh, I'm sorry. You said my name. You said my name. I thought it was my turn. That's my bad. You know, well, go ahead and do your part. Okay. Makes me feel awkward. Can I get a motion for this ordinance accepting the sanitary sewer infrastructure? Can I ask a question first? That comes next. Question.

So, did the one on second street get taken care of? Why was there one on Second Street? I thought there was that was the one that was initially the problem. And I couldn't help but laugh. The long story. That's how I met Shauna. aside.

Yeah, because I thought Second Street was the one that had the private sewer line or originally had a private se. So, I was wondering if like all of the private this would be the last one or if we needed to talk about if there was any more just before we did this left them all together because I thought there was one on Second Street. I'll be honest, I don't remember a private sewer on Second Street, but um I just checking with that.

I Yeah, the only reason I asked is I'll share a quick story. That's how I met Shauna was um I had a sewer issue and a previous mayor told me that I owned a private sewer and it became a fiasco and Shauna had to come in and save the day and be like, you know, this was not a private school. And that's how I thought Second Street had a private one because that's what I was told was Second Street was a private school. So I would encourage you to check that. That's I will definitely check that. But according to our wastewater superintendent, it's the last private se. I just want to double check that. Make sure that we are eliminating all of them. And those

if there is we'll do the same process. Okay. um it does take uh cooperation from all of the neighbors in that area, but it's no expense to them. So, but that is definitely a goal. That's why we wanted to get this done. So, there wasn't any. So, if there are any remaining, then we'll work to get those. Thank you. And then I'll make a motion to this. Appreciate that. You're welcome. Can I get a second? I'll second for that. All right. So, we have any discussion.

I want to interject. Um that's the practice that we do uh with the board of alderman. You do uh first motion or a motion, second, then discussion. We have not necessarily done that with you guys until today. So, that's probably why you're sensing that that change. Moving forward, that's fine. Moving forward. Motion second discussion. All right. So, no discussion. All right. All in favor?

I. Any opposed? Nope. Motion has passed. All right. Now, we're going to continue our discussion on parking and driveways. I was gonna say they're good to go. Thank you all for listening. Thank you for coming. We appreciate

you discussions. It's up to you. Thank you, Robert. Okay.

Is this going to be? Yeah. I mean, you are Are we good? Parking. Okay.

Um the one thing I will just caveat, I think you guys are all aware, but since our last meeting when we talked about parking, the whole um garage requirement for single family. So that's what our special meeting for next week is to to fix that problem that we identified in our last meeting. So um our next meeting we'll have or next week a week from today we'll discuss that ordinance and then that will go in front of the board for their approval. We did want to expedite that just because um it did have an immediate impact to our development community. So, they we got calls pretty quickly after our last meeting with concerns about um their working plans that they have um submitted or planning to submit soon that did or did not have a twocar garage. So, that's why we expedited the special meeting for next week. Okay. And then the um other thing is uh the um storage containers was not on the agenda. Um we can kind of discuss now. Do you guys want to next week is a special meeting. We can either talk about storage containers at that next meeting or we can um just put it back to our next regular scheduled meeting. Um I was unable to get to that in time during our between our two meetings. I was hoping to get the revisions that we discuss um fixed and I was not able to. So that's why it's not on the agenda tonight.

I would say just if we can squeeze it into the next meeting, squeeze it into the next one. If not, the next general meeting is what I'm comfortable with. I'm good with that. Yeah. Okay. We will try. But we have to wait till the next one. Oh, we have to talk about storage containers in a month. Oh, no. My brain started spinning with storage containers. So, I needed a break. All the different types and everything that you know some of us just had to bring up. Yeah. Thank you for that. Appreciate. You're welcome. Whatever I can do to make everything better than just putting cleaner coffee shop in this rates.

Oh, really? They should like right behind guys. Yeah. Really?

Okay. Um, for parking discussions, we really didn't deep dive. We didn't get very far into the parking discussions last time. So, we've got some time now. We can really get going on that. So, we'll let's just start with the ordinance for next week. So, we don't bring you an ordinance that you don't um like. But what we've done for it's only for single family. That's what we'll be um looking at at the next meeting. And what we've done is for um I wish I had it in front of me, but I don't. But um we basically have said two parking spaces for each unit and then put parentheses exclusive of garage interior space which is what we discussed. But the single family breaks it down into three groups. One being um I guess it's in here right here. Yeah. One of them is just regular single family dwelling, one is garage apartment, and one is guest rooms. Um, guest rooms doesn't provide a lot of explanation as to what that means by guest rooms, but since it's for single family only, um, our interpretation of that would be like a mother-in-law suite, anything any additional living space beyond, um, a garage apartment. So that one's currently says so single family dwelling and garage apartments both require two parking spaces for each dwelling unit. And then we put parentheses exclusive of the garage space. And then guest room says one parking space for each lodging room. And then we could do the same thing and put parentheses exclusive of garage space. Does that make sense?

Okay. I'm sorry. Let me just see if I cl Well, let me follow along with me because that might help a little bit. So, if you go into your packet where she has the highlighted ones. Yeah, that top one.

Yep. The very top one. So, 5058 is the only thing we'll be discussing um at the next for an ordinance change. It'll just be that section 50-58. So, what I was trying to say was that it splits it up into three different categories for single family. single family types um or parking that would be included in single family. So it has a regular single family dwelling. So that's just your typical home. It has garage apartments and it has guest rooms. So this that's 5058 is what we need to revise for our next meeting. and I was explaining how I chose to revise it, but if you don't agree, let me know now and then we'll bring the preferred method to our meeting on Thursday.

So, I have a question because I live in two place. I have two bedrooms, but really my second one is a guest room because I live alone. Yeah. No, no, no. I mean, the way it's worded Yeah. You could take that as that. I agree. I think it needs to be cleaned up for sure. There needs to be a definition of guest room or something because that that could be

it definitely has some question marks. So, I guess my question to you all would be um what do you consider to be a guest room in a single family building? I it does not I tell you that it's not that that's not what this is referring to because that a single family dwelling is one home that can be a fourbedroom house or it can be a 10-bedroom house but a single family dwelling is one home a duplex would be a two family dwelling. So when it says per dwelling space, yeah, it'd be two parking spots house that was just a twobedroom house

and you live there alone is the second bedroom guest. Yeah. I mean to be in most people's minds, right, it is because that's where your guests stay. So if you have a definition of I think calling it a guest I think calling it a guest room is probably what we need to change. Yes. Thanks. So, so my question because just did and was not on our list of neighboring communities that would be an entirely separate part of the code to for what

ailary because I was not under pressure in single family residential I'm not under the impression that we don't there are some houses I can't remember but there was originally the house now the garage has also been turned into an apartment which that that would be allowed. So in our code it says guest room means any room or unit where sleeping accommodations are regularly furnished to the public.

That sounds

so like if you're renting it out is more what that sounds like. Well, that makes sense why it says one parking space for each lodging room. That makes sense instead of dwelling because there it's it's like a rental. So, do we just change it to private? Yes.

Does that still does that help us anyone? I don't know. I asked Yeah. like it would be like a privately or privately accessible from the main house. That's what I feel like we're getting. It's like it would be its own separate like on suite. That's what I'm picturing on suite. Like it's like

that separate back door, but it one place to deal with it. So, I'd be really surprised if we do allow Well, that's our problem with our code though is that it doesn't say you can't do it. So when someone tries to do it, we can't tell them no.

So there's the only time the word ancillary comes into our code is under um adult businesses. So, oh,

but I think it deals in what is allowed in Hong Kong, which is one. It's not included in our code anywhere. because it's allowing for more than one family. Yeah.

So, it would be it would be either single family or duplex or multif family. Yes. in there unless it's grandfathered in.

This code was written in 2012.

Real I know some of this came up when I first started. So in my opinion then I think we take it out and if we need to make a separate ordinance on guest room on suite it's a whole it's its own category. probably multif family. We I think we'd have to treat it that way in this today. I would agree.

But I also feel like people probably renovate their basement into an additional living space with a separate private entrance and we have no idea. So yeah, I don't see how it's different or how you'd be able to differentiate between the two. I think the way the only way you would be able to differentiate it is if it has two different addresses. Like if they like made the basement their main floor A and downstairs B. Yeah. Then I knew I'd be the only way that you could and then you're back into duplex.

So I could explain a little bit because again just did like three months on this. It gets into all of the has to be separate. It's whether or not you can put a second kitchen. Um, firewalls,

firewalls, gas. So, if you have a basement with an outside door, but you can still get to that basement from the house. That's cool. That's kosher. You're doing whatever you want. You can rent out rooms within your own home. It's when it's totally separate and so that you can rent it out to someone else or someone can bring out totally independent separate electrical boxes. That makes sense. I do think it should be a separate ordinance though if we want to address try to address that. Have you guys sensed a trend yet?

Every single time we try to fix something we create a new problem. It seems to be the trick. I would just guess just what I would just guess. I agree. And I mean for the extent garage apartments is debatable, but I know that people have garage apartments. So I think we have to we should just separate it out and like put both of those into their own ordinance and like just make it a if this then that kind of thing. But then again,

we have to have parking for single family in this ordinance too. Yeah. Go to the garage apartment deal if you're actually really renting it out. Separate meters. Yeah. Separate gas. All that comes through peritting. So the city's going to know because permit to do that. Whether you're having your contractor pull it or you as a homeowner are doing work yourself, you still have to pull that permanent otherwise you get it when you find out.

I think we keep one and two, remove three. Keep the one and two will both say two parking spaces for each dwelling unit. parenthesis exclusive of garage interior space. Okay. And then I'll have Jenny add a new ordinance to our list of ordinances that we now need to create. Okay. All right, that's done. And then for let's see, let's go to duplex parking, which is 50-225. I'm going to skip that uh configuration section. We'll come back to that. So, are we going to just keep this kind of same trend? Um, obviously this one has guest rooms, too. So, we would need to remove it. But, do we want to keep the same trend of um two parking spaces for each dwelling unit exclusive of interior garage space? Okay. All righty. Multifamily 50-249. Same thing.

The only thing I would say here is the only time that I Well, I don't know. Well, I would say there is like if it's a single unit, like it's a onebedroom or a studio, I would be okay with them only having one parking spot or like that small of a unit. But if it's a for a threebedroom then I think like you would need at least two spots have two park you're going to have two parking spots outside of it

because you're going to drive away but so are you really solving anything about like those apartments over there that you can't park on the street and now you have a guest that comes and you've got two bedrooms and your son's got a car and your daughter's got a car and you've got a car and your husband's got a car. But at with Pine Creek Town Homes, we have it where it's they each have each of those units has a onecar garage and then the parking spaces immediately behind that onecar garage. So you don't have another place for two people to go in and out. So that's what we're fixing is that whenever you do have multi-unit apartments, you're and they choose to do a garage, they can't count that garage. they would have to have two individual spots for um that singular unit. And to your point, I agree, but I think we keep it uniform in the ordinance and allow for a variance if necessary. So if someone comes in and puts in a 100 unit studio, all studio apartments, they're probably going to need a variance of some sort. So, Grand Valley does have there's one per efficiency or studio.

True. You guys, you guys have these in front of you, the handout. It's easier to read. So, you can see Let me You can see on there. Um, no one. That's true. Well, and that's what So, that's why Green Valley did and Blue Springs have theirs. um kind of increased Higginsville also. So maybe we need to be more restrictive on multif family and that is kind of the whole reason why we're here, why we started this conversation was because of multif family and the limited parking. So

everything gets off the street as much as possible. That's really my thought. the one car leave the cars parked middle street. I know I've had my car hit I think that's kind of the point though is if you have a three or four bedroomedroom apartment which is not as common but it's still a possibility they're going to have more than two cars and then those extra cars are going to be parking on the street. So should we minimum

the two minus

garage parking like we're going but just have everything nice and uniform where you know even if you have the studio or the efficiency you're going to have friends over you're going to have family over you will have that spot or because I'm living in a studio I'm only paying this much. I can probably have this car or a play toy and my vehicle. So, you're going to need park as well. That's that's my keep it as uniform as possible. That's going to relieve a lot of headaches down. Make everybody do stuff. And then if it comes in, like she was saying, you know, 100 studio apartments come in and ask say, "Hey, do I really need 200 parking spots?"

I feel like just keeping it simple with this number. in this building. Right. So, do you want to keep it at two across the board or do we want to flex for additional bedrooms? I would flex for additional higher. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say like I'd say under three. So, three bedrooms.

Generally, it's three parking spaces per three bedrooms. So if you look at this column, you can see what others are doing. If you got a bedroom, you need a parking spot. Look at me. I got two kids. If I went moved into a different house with three bedrooms, look at my kids drive. I mean, it's different for people with young children. Obviously, but you're going to have more space right there.

Yeah. But when you have kids, it's kind of friends and relatives and holidays, birthday parties. Yeah. So, Grand Valley's kind of capped theirs at three per threebedroom and didn't get into the fourbedroom territory. Feel like we should cap it at some point, but I feel like it could get a little bit yards. Yeah. 10bedroom apartment complex. They should make you got a five bedroom house for four cars. That's not a bad idea.

So that looks Is that similar to what Higginsville is doing? Yeah,

Higginsville seems the most um detailed and I like those layout for us that that lays it out real nice. And I mean if you're can afford five plus bedrooms, then yeah, you're going to have five plus cars probably. Are you going to have multif family living in that? multiple um generation. Do we want this to apply to multif family, duplex, and single family or just multif family?

All of them. Like the bigger the house, more duplex. And then on top of that that framework, it would also be um exclusive of garage parking. Yes. Right. The they also have a one and a half parking spots per studio. Two. Two minimum. Start at two. Okay. I don't know.

I think it would be if you have like 10 units. They added 10 units one bedroom studio and that would create space again.

I think try and keep the ordinances stuff as simple as possible. We're not going to run into this 15 years down the road where we're all than I am now. The next batch comes through and it's like what these guys think.

Okay. So, just impactwise on single family. Um with single family, you have obviously a little bit more street parking available to you than you would in a multif family development. Just thinking out loud here, if you have a very large subdivision go in of all single family homes and every house has five bedrooms, you would have to have five eight is it eight or 9 by 20 parking space. You'd have very large driveways is what I'm trying to say. Is that what we're comfortable with? And I think it would also be um an impact or shift to how we've been doing things in the development community in Odessa.

Like at that point it would have to be PUBG, but this would just be for a basic single family single family development. So if the hill development, every single house they built was five bedrooms. That would not be that wouldn't be a PE necessarily. That's part of Well, I thought it was going to be just because that's why they No, they we thought about it. That's not the route we were ended up going though.

My thought on it is if we got a development coming in with all these five bedroom houses, they're going to be on extended lot sizes. You know, it's going to be like maybe they're going to have the room to have.

Yeah, I think so, too. Yeah. Do you have Do you have three parking spaces on your driveway? I got Oh, yeah. Okay. Yes, I do remember. Can I I'm just I'm listening. So, I said I was going to do. Can I just ask you a quick question? My wife's where I'm at right now probably. Yeah.

I would I would hear mainly Marlon Dy 2 North Johnson. Uh just and I when I listened to you say Matt uh you know about parking on the street. I came mainly because I've read something about parking on the street and I just didn't want I mean I don't want to see something like Johnson Drive where there hadn't been parking for over 30 years, you know, and I I feel for those people down the street for me to the new houses, but I just was hoping that nobody was talking or thinking about saying, "Well, we need to do something so they can park on the street there." But what I heard you say is like, "Well, I think that's what he's thinking." So I just I just wanted some clarification as far as that we're

we're trying to eliminate or reduce park street parking. Yeah. Which that's what I feel very strongly about. Yeah. I mean I just don't think I mean there's some streets that you you know we can park on. It's okay. Johnson drive and other parking. I agree. So there there's no no discussion moving that direction. You guys are trying to figure out how to keep that from happening. I'm gonna go home and have supper then you did learn a lot tonight though. We are looking for a new member.

I hear somebody calling that email. You got that. That's funny. I think you bring up a really valid point, but at the same time, I still think that it should be a park. Like I I just can't see I can't see there not being enough parking to get cars off the street. Um, you know, and I also think about like whenever we need to clear a street for snow,

everything like that. So, even if we're talking about like big houses, big houses come with expensive cars, which also come with if they get hit by a snow plow, then that becomes a who's it? I guess I feel like if you got a big house, get them off the street.

I don't want to see it look like parking one. If you have, and we're not including a no garage, but you have two of your cars in the garage, you can have two of them on the outside. If you have that third space, then you've got a place to put cars so one can get out and you can ship things around or you got to get started. That's three more spaces there. Plus, you got your two main cars. So, no more than three driveway parking spaces is what you're saying. For single family picture,

you got a twocar garage. You got your two spaces here. So, you're just going to block this. Like when I look at it in my mind, I'm like, "Okay, two two and in the street. You know what I mean? Are you going to go like that makes more sense to me? You're going to end up having four anyway. Yeah.

Basically, you'd have your drive your driveway area, I guess, or what comes off the drive almost longer than where the entrance is to your garage. Then you've got that extra space. So basically, you'd have to have a at minimum a 40 foot long driveway and potentially um

40 by 27 foot driveway would accommodate at least five cars. Yeah. Thank you. Oh, it'll never fit in an info lot.

Never ever. They'd have So then your info lots will would have to be reduced to smaller homes, smaller bedroom homes and or a variance which we're trying to reduce. Yes. Some people in the garage the house less likely unless they

four bedrooms big two detached garage. Sorry.

There's somebody who was working for Kathy Kushner who was on the school board.

I I think we cap it at at least at minimum at either three or four spaces. I think having five spaces is a lot. Yeah. I'm just looking at houses right now on Zillow of New Builds in Green Valley. Three car garage and you can definitely fit six cars in that driveway. Yeah. So,

I mean a 40 foot long driveway is not 40 foot long. Well, that and that's the next thing we need to talk about is the driveway size, location, and configurations. So, if we can hammer this out, then we build the configurations to match. But our our parking spot size requirement is 9 by 20. So, you'd have to accommodate 9 by 20 times however many we're requiring in the driveway. Does that make sense? Well, I was thinking about my car and I just did some calculations because it's so it's basically 16 ft long and and that's a Ford Fusion. So that's not huge car, but it's a four-door sedan. You know, of course, if I'm driving a 1968 Cadillac, then, you know, it's longer than that, but still 20 ft. To me, that's reasonable.

I mean, to get a a door locked. Yeah. Yeah. You're right there. It's excursion. Yep. So what what are we landing on for we decided two space minimum? Are we going to cap it at three or four? Are we not capping it? What do you say? What do you think? Are you talking about a five like five bedroom?

Yeah, it just be capped at three or four spaces no matter how many bedrooms. I have to say at least three. The four is it's probably already going to be there. If you have a five bed, you're going to have at least a twocar garage and you're going to have probably But we're excluding garages, right? But with that, you're probably going to have the driveway for for four cars. Most I would think. I'm good.

We got three four.

I'm I'm a little torn. I can see both sides on it. I personally if I was building it and I was doing that many bedrooms I have four anyway because how I would end up playing out the deal but I can see your point too is like why so we made what if we look at Higgins code three to four bedrooms is three spaces four bedrooms four spaces I was really liking I thought they had it really

all bedroom. We go back. basement. I know.

I would base it on the developed plans of the house. So they build up the house. If they say this is a threebedroom house, unfinished basement, then you got to follow the rules for three bedroom. And you know what? If you finish it out,

add six more bedrooms in that basement.

Okay. So yeah, I think the a good point is to look think about infill lots too, even though we're kind of running out of infill lots, but um like a lot of times the infill lots are on the grandfathered lot sizes. So it's smaller than our our ordinance even allows cuz they're like 50 foot wide, very small homes. Um, so some of those new, but they're still able to fit those. I'm looking at Dryen right now. All those new homes that popped up with the onecar garages, those are 900 square ft, three bedroomedroom.

This one's,93 square feet, threebedroom. 960 ft, threebedroom, two bath. They're the same building. There's two right there. They're all They're all the same building. That's small, but those are still threebedroom and very very small houses that I mean I just am Google street viewing. I mean those driveways are not you can fit two cars on those driveways. You can't on these. I know you can't fit two cars right up here on dry.

So, whatever's right here by the nursing home, it's the same layout. You cannot Oh, those you cannot fit two cars in that driveway. Kind of. I guess the way I'm looking at it is want to build a house, you got to follow these rules and you can't fit that house and these rules. Yeah, that's the exact same. Drop down.

You think that's less than 20 ft? I'm pretty sure those are pretty. Well, that that those are the prime examp that that exact layout that we're talking about is the reason why we need to fix the ordinance because we've been allowing them to do it incorrectly. Yeah. Seems like that's That's my concern is that if we I mean I do think that the one solution to that problem is that if that lot was grandfathered in then like I don't think we have a say over what happens like now I think

but if they're trying to build on it they still have to comply with these types of codes when you update your account you change one thing you have to update everything the code that the city has fallen. So, I don't know. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but it's kind of like these are the rules play by. Okay. So, three or four. Four. Four spaces.

Are we taking out the plus one per bedroom over five though to cap it at four? Okay, got it. All righty. Now that we've got that, and then we'll exclude garages. We should be good. All right, let's move to the parking and driveway size, location, and configuration. So it's on it's under each it's under 50-59 but then it's also number four on under R2 and number or letter B under uh multif family but I think it says it the exact same way each time. So I'm looking at 5059.

So individual parking spaces regard regardless of shape shall provide a clear rectangular parking space if not less than 9 ft in width and a length of not less than 20 ft parenthesis plus required accessibility space as required for disabled parking where applicable. Any objections to the 9 by20 rule? Makes sense.

Okay. And then B, a parking space shall be provided at a location off public rideway and outside of the site clearance triangle at right-of-way intersections as prescribed elsewhere in this code. So, that's kind of what you're saying with the sidewalk. Um, there's not always sidewalk and rideway, but it's saying that you can't block that rideway, the basically the boulevard area with the parking. So really it wouldn't even be So I was saying earlier you'd have to have a 40 foot driveway. It'd really be a little bit more to get two two parking stalls and then account for the ride ofway. I always think that's also a little controversial too on that just because there could be houses across the street with sidewalk and you know they can fit four cars in that driveway and then the other side that drive or that sidewalk goes right through.

Well, that's why they used right of way and not sidewalks. So it equal for no matter what right overall on also you picked that house on that side where you say as prescribed elsewhere in this code. Can you see if you can see where prescribed elsewhere in the code? Um, driveway locations and approach configuration shall be construction in accordance constructed in accordance with this code. That's kind of like a catchall.

Where are we supposed to construct our driveways? What?

I don't know. um driveway ingress and egress shall be confined to and shall not exceed 25 ft in width exclusive of curb. So this is where we were saying earlier that there's no driveway width requirement in our code. There's a driveway ingress and egress requirement in our code but not a driveway width. Two different things. So do we want a driveway width or not? Do did we do a comparison with Well, we have Yeah.

Oh, yeah. That's minimum. There's no max like Yeah, there's no maximum. Yeah. But are we comfortable with like entire parcels being their entire front area to be parking or should we like cut it off somewhere? I don't care. Yeah,

they want their front yard to be a parking lot. I guess I mean we have to we also have to think that I mean where does it end trying to decide how big somebody's driveway is going to be? I mean, we're telling them the minimums, which if they want to build more, they want their front yard to be all concrete. I don't know that there's I don't think it's up to us to people's choices. All these other cities did it.

Blue Springs has a 50% of front yard. You can't you can't do more than 50% of their front yard. I was going to say is the rule of how much brief face or something is left. I mean, that's what you're taking away. You could end up with like a whole subdivision of Odessa looking like downtown Kansas City if you just say, "Okay, no front yards are required. That's just all parking. weed ordinances trees. So they use gravel.

Exactly. Yeah. See, but you can't necessarily park on gravel. I guess you could. That's what we're going to work on. We're gonna let that grow.

Okay. Blue Springs has 50% of front yard, max width 35 ft. Corner lots max width 45 ft. Um, Grain Valley has um ingress and egress can't exceed 20 or 35 ft, which is 10 more than ours. And that's it. I mean, I guess am I wrong when I say that? That anx ingress and egress is different than your max driveway. Do you guys agree? Because to me, the ingress and egress is just like the apron where you pull in

into the driveway off of the street. Okay. I just want to make sure like this if you want to go that's on you if you got the money to do that. Yeah. which is I think is we want to have the ability for people to add on to their driveways too. And you see the three like the two regular just plain driveway and then like the little branch paved branch. But yeah, I been around with counting gravel driveways the other day. Did you drive down street? Oh, there's a on yours.

Here, here, here. We have a great idea on that. So, get to it. Okay, we'll get to it. Okay. Um, and then Oak Grove also has a not to exceed of 35 ft. So, do we want a not to exceed or not? We also have to remember nine times three spaces is what was that? 27 feet. So, if you had a knot to exceed of 35 feet, you could get almost. You'd have four wide parking spaces almost. That's a lot. That's a lot. So, a max width of 35 is still a lot of parking.

That makes a huge driveway that I mean most time you're not going to get more than one car to back, but I mean two. If you lift that case, you can have four cars there and they all decide to back out at the same time. I mean, that'd be a silly thing to do if Well, that's where the the max ingress egress comes into play. Yeah. I mean, that that makes it where you ain't got 72 cars trying to come out of it. They're burn.

Well, I guess Oak Grove is says the width of the driveway throat shall not exceed 35 in width. So, it's just the ingress and egress, too. That's that's a big entrance to a residential. I like ours is 25. Yeah. I mean, that's that's decent. Arguably, if we have nine foot wide parking spots, it should be 27. That'd be 27 instead of 25. Should be 27 in. Yeah.

Okay. So, we're saying we're saying 9 by 20 ft and ingress and egress not to exceed 27 feet in width. And that's that's it. No driveway max. Good with it. You guys want to go with Like she said, Blue Spring where they got a 50% crane space. We could say something. I mean, I don't I don't like being told what to do, obviously. I I understand it. You know,

but most people that are building a house and most people that are designing a house, they allow for green spaces and yeah, most people like to have a front yard. They don't, you know, so it's I don't think it's I don't think it's I think it's big a deal that we're trying to come up with. Um, ours is 25. 27 would be three 9 by 20 parking spots. What's the decimal? There's nothing in here. Is there that circle drives? So, you would have two driveways coming in. Well, do five plus bedrooms. We don't address that, I guess. But

says rectangard of shape. Yeah, it says a clear rectangular parking space. Yeah, I guess they're not allowed. Not allowed. It says shall provide a clear rectangular parking space. Oh, I guess you could have it. You could have your 9 by20. Two driveways or two parking twocar garage there. And here you have so you can come in. But over here I put in a circuit drive to be able to come in right in front of my door. Yeah. Yeah. I guess

I mean is that is there anything in the codes ordinances that say the only thing I would maybe say would it would be treated as two separate Well, all the way. Would that be two separate driveway, two separate 27 width requirements or would the 27 then be split in two? Yes, 27 foot each month even though it's just a driveway and not a it is an ingress egress. So it's

it says driveway ingress and egress shall be confined to. So I would say 27 for each more than if you have a lot that's 150 feet wide. You may want to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's doable. I just wanted to

Okay. All right. So, we'll move on from that one so we can get to gravel. Um, the last one on here says, "Offreet driveway and parking areas shall be constructed and maintained with asphalt, concrete, or other approved paving materials capable of supporting all vehicles upon or used thereon in all weather conditions without emitting dust or mud onto an adjacent street or adjoining property during normal and customary use

gravel are stressing me out. I have no idea if there is gravel dust. Well, yeah. If you build it, right? Yeah. Right. I mean, that's that's where I'm getting with we got to lay the foundation. Tell them if you're going to do this, this is what you got to do. You got to have minimum, you know, four to six inch base. I don't want to do

Well, no, not construction. I think anything. Yeah, I think I think anything that doesn't have enough parking construction that Centennial Hills start a lot of people aren't out because then it gets in your guard. It gets trapped into the house. Kids throw throw it at each other. A lot of people don't want

us. It's not cheap either. That's not trust. But I think we're a very different community. So this is where, you know, I agree with the percentage of graways that are already gravel. And also no gravel in new construction. What do you what was the first part? Percentage of gravel that's already in your neighborhood.

Because like say you go down to my house, there's a ton of gravel driveways down my street. So if we were to set a percentage in your area, then if you're above that percentage, yeah, you can add, you know, gravel like say for me cuz it's I need an extra because my driveway is not doesn't even match our ordinance of 9 ft wide. So yeah, right here I am back.

Yeah, my stuff's about 9 people. I have until you get up to the two spaces behind my detached garage, which do you live about third street? Okay, carry on. Oh, okay. I just need to see your driveway. code compiance out there.

403. What did you say? 405 South. What?

Do a dry Is that brick? A brick porch. Yep. White. The house is white. I see. Oh, that's Yeah, that's me. Oh, yeah. Right. There's probably nine things. What kind of tree is that? There's no big oak tree, thousand cover. I don't know.

Walnut trees. That looks dangerously close to 9 ft wide. It's close, but it's not. I mean, if they put tape on it, it's not it's okay. If I go and get a variance. So, do we all do we all agree with gravel not being allowed in new construction? Yes. Yes. Okay. The problem I see with the neighborhood percentage is we'd have to then define what neighborhood consists of because not every house is in a subdivision in Odessa.

That's probably too big. be hard.

Clayton Park. Yeah, we don't want to make this any or or us. We can go. We could show by house two streets down and this way. I think we need to find another way to gauge it because I think counting houses will be pretty wishy-washy on endorsement. Think about too is we need to set up what is considered new construction because if we say like there's new construction and then in 10 years

yeah it's no longer new construction and someone might be like ah I got you now. Yeah. So, we need to think about Well, they could. So, that's what if we said not allowed in new construction, that's new builds only. Yeah. So, like even infill that would be a new build, new construction. But if someone in Centennial Hills now wants to turn their driveway to gravel, they could. based off of that.

Maybe a way that we could answer this problem is houses built before a certain date and a house is built after a certain house built houses built from 1905 to let's say like you know 20 say what can we find like a happy medium maybe we don't go full gravel can we go like chips you so the first subdivision recipe.

And so that was like so everything that was pre subdivisions. I don't know anywhere in town subdivisions that would be fully I mean that might not be subdivided and they might not have that. Well, some of them like for example what was what's this guy's name again? No, one for um that's going to be on there next week.

74 84 and I have a gravel drive. Do you guys remember the Asher Asher lot split we just did over on Orchard. Orchard replat. Was that the one that like I was concerned about? No one on because I was concerned about the driveway. I think no. Is the one where the building that back garage was on the property line? Yeah, that was the one I was about because where this whole conversation started. Yes. Yes. Yes.

But so his that so that was two lots and then there was a lot behind him that he was basically attaching to those two lots. Those two lots are subdivided. Everything behind those four lots are not sub they're not in a subdivision. So that's why I mean there's just random houses that are not in subdivisions is what I was meaning by that. Not everything's in a subdivision.

A date is when you would be ahead. When I was in school, Centennial Hills does exist. It was it was a mean. When Centennial Hills was bought and was built, it was where the elite of town were going to move. That was 50 years ago. It's a nice neighborhood, but it's now just so we put a born on date isn't necessarily not say right, but you know play the park right now is new. Give it a few years it won't be new. I agree with that. Um,

also the only way to fix that though could be you can do born on date that start and then you can also say that you can't do it with houses that are built at 20 years of the current year. Yeah. So like in 2006 and then 2046 could be considered old enough to have a gravel that during that time then they're not going to be the neighborhood won't be you're have gravel here it's going to be worth a mess. It's not going to be like if Centennial Hills if all a sudden people started ripping up the driveway putting in gravel. No,

but it could hypothetically debag your house. Yeah.

And that's not saying he's, you know, he overlay districts and then maybe the neighborhoods themselves come fight whether they want it or not. or we just don't allow it and we do like a chips seal alternative which is cheaper than full-blown pavement but not it provides the sealed the dust emission etc etc etc also grants for those of us that are poor to have the city helping I know

or the other thing we talked about last time was like where You can do an an extension beyond your egress. That's gravel. That's all I want. That's a little bit more accepting from the masses. Stay as I just need to add. And I hate to make this about me guys, but it is. I'm sorry. It is. And I know there's others that are having the same problem. It's a freak quick question. Yeah. No, like I mean I just need an extra side one space. Well, it's going to be 100 foot long, but that wide. I see.

There's certain houses that I can think of that are right here main street that cars park in the front yard and so it's just dirt there that at least if they something which I know they're not supposed to, but we also don't have to force them not to. So, but if it gave them an opportunity to put something nicer, the community would look nicer. That's why I've been so adamant of we need to give people an alternative to the economy right now. Not to bring up the economy, but I don't like we were just joking like, you know, put in a put in a concrete driveway. I don't got $20,000 to put a concrete driveway in right now.

Then that's the problem, you know, and so like that's the problem. That's why I'm so adamant on we need to think about our community as a whole and how we can help those of us that don't make $150 million an hour, you know, be able to afford some of this stuff to be able to beautify our homes to make it more accommodating to toad and then also, you know, if we had some a nicer alternative that was cheaper than just concrete or asphalt, then our neighbors not be so mad that there's a giant mud puddle in our front.

Okay. So, what I'm hearing is no gravel. Are we saying no gravel extensions, too? If we wheeled this back to, okay, you can create an extension off of your existing driveway that is gravel. Are we saying because I had gravel not allowed in new construction? I think it should still extension shouldn't be allowed in construction.

Okay. No gravel period in new construction. Are we are we in agreement on an extension of your existing driveway can be gravel or not? So clarification. Well, we're going to have to clarify what an extension is. We'll have to define it. Don't think people in Centennial Hills are going to want to see a gravel extension on their neighbor's driveway or in park or ridge. That's not going to I don't know. They have um doesn't I mean they're supposed to but they never did form.

That is a way for each neighborhood or subdivision to the only true HOA that we will have I think moving forward is going to be the hill car. Oh, it does. I mean, people wanted to form an HOA to keep somebody from putting gravel in. That's their right. And that's what I would suggest to them. Get your neighbors together. Make an HOA bylaws. Are you wanting to create a DR drop a new gravel driveway next to your existing gravel driveway or are you wanting to create additional parking?

Additional parking. Okay,

that's all I need because I mean I got two spaces as you saw up by the detach. I have one single lane going out to the street. My plan that I want to do for my house, again about me, is I want to add one more lane probably about maybe 60% of my asphalt drive down this way. Then I want to go out this way and attach to the alley. I have no alley access off the back of my property, but I got an alley back there.

Yeah, go back to your house. And in all fairness, I can back that up. I have three acres. They were originally leveled out to build a giant shed. for this per our current code. I would have to if I wanted to put that giant workshop shed out there like it was originally planned to do, I would have to do a concrete driveway all the way down my hill to sh. So, and I know that there's not too many houses still in town that have three acres attached to them, but there at least up where I live, there's at least four or five of us that have more than two. So, but

I just feel like there's a reason why none of these other cities have gravel listed. I mean, there's a reason like I mean with all the other things we've looked at, there's a wide range where it's like two parking spaces up to five parking spaces. is, you know, all the different things we're looking at, cities are have a wide range of opportunity. But when you look at material, it's almost the same for every single one of them. And as gravel's not listed, this is for parking and situation you were talking about building the building back there and then needing a

you wouldn't need it. That's that's not a driveway. That's a still been able to do gravel. That's something we've already determined because like you what he wanted to do if he wanted to put any gravel access to his the alley behind this house. He can't do it. What if we what if we allowed gravel behind the front setback? Something of that nature. Like it could like you could have gravel to get to the rear garage but not necessarily to get to your house. I just said bone. I don't know.

Well, that's connected to the street on new construction. We're talking about a solid solid area, concrete, asphalt or something like that. But if you're putting another building like and I don't know these divisions or subdivisions you're talking about, but I know they have whatever the one is out there. I call it country club outside by that school, but you don't have a country club here. So, but I mean, you know, it's very nice houses. And if if they wanted to put from their house to their barn back there, a gravel driveway, I don't I don't see it. That's to me that's I mean, that doesn't have anything to do with their parking.

It's a drive. It's access. It's access. And it's not necessarily like curb appeal like you're you're as you're passing by you're going to see the normal driveway but what how you get to your rear accessory building is not as visible right

but not me but somebody could say that my detached garage in an accessory building. That's what I'm saying. You could get you could use gravel from your house to your accessory building, right? I'm just saying like somebody could do that. It would make somebody else mad. No m I'm not saying no matter what we do, someone will be mad. But

what we do, we're screwed. This is this is definitely a topic that we cannot make every single person in Odessa happy with. Should we almost open this up to like a like a public forum over like I almost feel like we should because I mean I don't know

what she would just post. I just don't know if we're going to be able to like make a a joint decision unless we pick a a year like 2006 or 2007 which is when I graduated high school and say like you can have gravel before 2007 as long as you're not in a subdivision like and we messed up the subdivisions. I think then you're going to end up with streets that are a mess because people who have driveways that are going bad, they're just gravel.

You also have the maintenance perspective, too, which you have that with pavement, but with gravel, you put gravel down once and then don't touch it for a decade, it's no longer a gravel driveway. It's just grass. And then you have a code enforcement thing where it's like, well, I do have gravel, but it's like not very many. Like how do we make sure that they stay gravel and not turn into grass? That's what I was saying about you got to tell there has to be code to how it's installed.

You got to put you got to strip it. You got to put your geoteex down. You got to put your base down and then your gravel. And in 10 years there are going to be weeds and stuff. But that's when code enforcement comes back through and says, "Hey, you got to do something to go get." But you'd have to say, you'd have to say something that would allow for code enforcement to be able to do that like a maintenance clause. I don't think so. No.

Unless they become whatever the height requirement is, then for cut grass. Because I'm just saying like I know plenty of concrete driveways that are crumbling and shifting and have giant Yeah. my my asphalt down by the street. I mean I got to redo it the next couple years. So like I mean if we I feel I feel like the moment of if we're gonna say one you can't have or you can have but you have to maintain it. Oh god. But we don't say nothing about the other. Then really are we making a rule that's a double standard,

you know, because I know plenty of driveways that are lopsided and cracked and crumbling and they're creating more havoc in the street because there's concrete is I think of specific houses right now in town that like are washing out into the street. So, you know, so we can't enforce the ordinances that we I'm just saying if we don't put something in there regarding maintenance, there's nothing to enforce. I think I got

you're getting into a real real problem area if you do that. Uh most people will maintain or fix uh their driveways if they have the money because it lowers the property value if you decide to sell it. um people are going to negotiate and your price is going to go down. So you either fix it or one or the other. And and I see this as being pertaining to whenever it's adopted and for going forward. Uh to make this pertain to every house that's been built since 1776 or whatever year the first one was ever built here. To me, that's not what this is.

Depends on what it is, too. If we're saying, "Okay, everyone needs to put pavement down all the way back to 1776," then that's that's unreasonable. Yes. But if we're saying, "Okay, you can now have gravel driveways," then it But if you're from 2026 on, you can't, then it's, you know, I mean, it just depends on what what the ordinance says that we choose. I then we determine how it gets uh applied.

I think it's just the adoption date, the date that you that you take this in, you get on there any new construction after April, whatever 16th or 25th or whatever date it is that this pertains otherwise I mean just like your place you'd put in a Oh yeah. of concrete anyway. So he wants to borrow 20,000. Well, it's already like that now. So if you have a gravel driveway now, right? You don't you don't have to put in concrete or asphalt. So when they put in the the one that's in there now, that's what that's how they did it.

So at some place in there, does it say that or or does say after the adoption date or when I'd have to go back to the original ordinance, which I could probably do. 1 9 2012. Let me look. But it'll take me a second. If you don't have a date that says from here forward, then somebody go, well, it it doesn't I can argue that point. Do what? I was I was there. Oh,

but I did the holiday. which I will say everything was discussed. So they talked about gravel in 2012. Yes. And that's where it kind of it's always the same neighborhoods, right? You know which neighborhoods don't like they really don't have HOAs and they probably don't want to create HOAs based on where created say overlays as you know the hill

places like third street they might get out a little bit

I don't you know once you get south you get into It's almost 8:00. going up strong for two hours.

I just want to know really quick though, like are you guys open to adding chips seal? Because I feel like that's what whenever I first got here that was like the thing like I want to do chips seal driveway. I want to do chips seal driveway and that was the city interpreted that it did not count under the asphalt or concrete list. So, do we are we comfortable with explicitly allowing chip sealed driveways? It is a sealed surface. It's a sealed surface, right? And you still have to put a base on that, don't got to put a base on.

Well, and we don't have we don't have any base requirements, though. So, they wouldn't have to. They could just put gravel down and put a sealant on top of that gravel because we don't require we we currently don't have any base requirements. The city the city chip sealed a lot of the roots for them right still do but we said no I'm buying the chips so the city can do it for the roads then I don't know what someone are we requiring it to have a base though

a base a base requirement like what this has where asphalt with 8 in base concrete with wait what does it say 5 in of concrete 6 in of asphalt or 3 in of asphalt with an 8 in base is what most of these say. I don't know what if chip seal changes the base standard though. I guess I'd have to research that.

Yeah, we got to we're going to have to look into that. But I mean because any type of parking structure, parking surface, road all has a base. If you don't, then you're just like we saying, what we don't want to happen is somebody just bringing a truckload of gravel with double on their grass, right? That's what I was saying. You got to have it lined out. There has to be guidelines as to what including for gravel is what your point is. Yeah. implement.

What if we came up with like a few different sample um verbiages and we went from there? Maybe that would help if we started with something. We could try that. I don't know. Don't know if that helps or not, but I think it gets us further than just kind of I feel like we might be spinning a little bit,

you know. It's a hot topic and it's it's hard to want to see gravel in in a nice neighborhood and but then you got to think of you're not it's it's rough. I mean, I guess if we can do it a chip seal, but it can't just be somebody throwing gravel down and putting tar over, you know, it's got to be system.

I agree. We can research what the standards would be. Okay, there's 2838.

Um, we just talked about this with the police chief and then wrote it down on the storage container piece of paper, not the parking piece of paper. It wasn't very much. I want to like it's up to no up to 500 because it'd be that that's it would go to court and that's the max that our judge can find someone is up to $500 plus court costs and they have to depending on what the judge it would be the judge's decision but it would go through municipal court right that's what I don't Carl Scarboro I've never been in trouble.

Um, okay. We'll we'll take a stab at it and try to come up with something that we can at least talk through a little bit more. Sound good? All righty. Good meeting. It is 8:03. I will take a motion.

There's no further business. I will take a motion to adjourn. I'll make a motion to adjourn. Do I have a second? Second. Yeah. Discussion. I think we've been talking enough, right? All in favor? Anybody oppose? Nope. Okay, cool. Approve.