Town Council - Regular Meeting

Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. N. Good evening. Thank you all for being here. I'd like to call to order this meeting of the Oakidge Town Council for April 9th, 2026. Uh the first uh order of business would be the invocation. We're pleased to have Reverend Alan Cast Stevens, pastor for Moravia Moravian Church with us tonight. Would you please come forward and lead

us in our invocation? Stand if you can.

Good evening. Please prayer with me. Loving and gracious God, we come before you at the opening of this meeting with gratitude for this community and the privilege to serve one another. We ask that your blessing upon the members of this council, upon the staff who labor faithfully on behalf of the town, upon those who are gathered here this evening, grant wisdom to those that must make decisions, patience to those that must speak and listen, and a spirit of respect for every conversation. Guide these proceedings with peace and fairness. Help those entrusted with leadership to seek what is right, to act with integrity, and to remember the people and families who call this town home. We pray for this community as a whole. Bless our neighborhoods, our schools, our homes, our businesses, and all who work for the good of others. In times of disagreement, give us understanding. In times of difficulty, give us courage. In all things, help us pursue the common good with humility and goodwill. May this meeting be carried out in the spirit of wisdom, service, and care for one another. Amen. Amen. I'd like to call forward some boy scouts that are with us tonight to lead us in our pledge of allegiance. So, Miles, Nolan, Bryson, and Landed will will lead us in the pledge of alle allegiance. You can pull down the mic.

Spread out to the far side. There you go. Thank you. Scar and salute. Please join me in the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you gentlemen. Thank you for being here tonight. All from troop 139. The next order of business is the approval of the agenda. Do I have a motion to approve the agenda? Some move. Second.

Okay. All in favor? I opposed. The agenda is approved. Now, we have two sets of minutes to approve the March 5th, 2026 regular meeting and the one that preceded that, which was the February 5th, 2026 regular meeting. I would suggest that we uh prove try to approve them at the same time. Do I have a motion to do so? I move that we approve both the March 5th and the February 5th, 2026 meetings. Second. All in favor? I I

all opposed. Okay. Our next order of business uh is normally resolutions, proclamations, and announcements. Tonight, uh we we're lucky to have uh Sheriff Sam Page from Rocky M County to join us. Uh, Sheriff Paige uh is a candidate for the North Carolina Senate and we're fortunate to have him come and share his vision and and words with us. Sheriff Paige. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, Council. It's an honor and a pleasure to be here today. My name is Sam Paige. I'm the sheriff in Rockingham County. And in this year, I'll be finishing up 28 years service to the citizens of Rockingham County. I want to continue this service as your next senator representing you in the district of citizens here in Guilford and in Rockingham County. And I will tell you this, my commitment is I will never forget who I work for, who I serve, and you will be my bosses. My air will be with you, not another interest. I do want to say it's an honor to be here tonight, and also I'm looking forward to engaging and meeting with more people here in the Oakidge area and in the district. Uh, I want them to get to know me, know what I stand for, and I look forward again to serving all of you in the district here in Guilford and in Rockingham County. It's truly an honor. And again, I want to tell you something else is unlike some uh elected officials, I carry two phones. So, my phone rings and I list that phone number. If you need me, you call me. I'm there.

Thank you. Thank you, sir. And thank you for joining us tonight. God bless you. We look forward to working with you, too, sir.

Thank you so much. And before we move on, I would like to recognize uh Kyle Anders, who has been a volunteer contributor to our town for 60 years. Kyle moved to Oakidge in 1966 and immediately joined our fire department as a volunteer fireman. Since then, he has moved through the ranks as captain, assistant chief, chief, and most recent recently as chairman of the board. In that role, he took on the challenge of reorganizing the department to ensure that it is staffed with the right people, that they were well trained and well equipped while making sure that the department was financially sound and ready to serve the growing needs of Oakidge. In addition to this, Kyle was past chair co-chair of the Oakidge Easter horse show and has been a long-term member of the Mor Moravia Moravian Church. Over the past decade, he has served on the town's parks and recreation committees. And I'm sure that everyone here has probably eaten one of the 10,000 hamburgers and hot dogs that he has cooked at our Music in the Park events over the years. You've also seen him uh probably seen him where he's most at home on the on his tractor cutting and bailing hay in Heritage Farm Park. Kyle is going to be sidelineed for a couple of months, but Mayor Prom Greon and I and other members of council wanted him to know that we have your back, Kyle, and we want you back as soon as you're able. Kyle is a great example of the spirit of our Oakidge volunteers who drive the forward progress of our town. So, I wanted to publicly thank him for his service and his many historic contributions to Oakidge. Again, thank you, Kyle. But please note, Kyle is just one example of the volunteer spirit that we enjoy in

Oakidge. I can think of uh dozens of other fantastic town contributors and I hope that during the remaining 607day term of this council that we will recognize many others of those volunteers who make such positive impacts on our town. Thank you Kyle. Okay, the next item of our business is the report from the Guilford County Sheriff's Office. Sir, will you please come forward and state your your name and address? Good evening, uh, council members, staff, and the citizens of, uh, Oakidge. We're honored to be here tonight. My name is, uh, Sergeant Moon with the Guilford County Sheriff's Office. I'm stationed here in the Somerfield, uh, area and serve this this community. Uh, here tonight to report on the happenings here in the township in the month of March. Uh, for the month of March, the Guilford County Sheriff's Office responded to 148 calls for service. Now, understand those calls for service can be dispatch 911 calls through the Guilford Metro 911 Center or they could be self-initiated activity such as uh premise checks on our businesses, residents or traffic stops, things of that nature. Uh out of that activity, of the 148 calls for service, there was a result of 13 incident reports that were completed. Uh those reports included uh six drug violations, one simple assault, one fraud, one communicating threats or intimidation, one lararseny offense, and four other offenses. Uh for the month, there were no

significant incidents or crime trends that were identified uh within the township. uh as we move into the the spring and into the summer, we would like to take the opportunity to remind all the residents here in Oakidge to help us prevent crime. And in doing that, just making sure that you're observant and aware of your community and your neighbors and make sure first and foremost that you're securing and protecting your property. So, when you're out doing your yard work and things of that nature, make sure that when you get done, you do secure those things back and especially at night, uh, your vehicles that you are locking those vehicles to help us and help yourself as well. So, um, as always, we're available. Our office is located in Somefield. Uh, should you need anything, whether it's here at the the town or any of the residents, feel free to either give us a call or stop by.

Thank you, sir. Thanks for your report and your service. We'll now have the report from the Oakidge Fire Department. Do we have anybody from the fire department, Sam, or are you are you going to pitch?

Good evening, council. Um Sam Anders, 1829 Oakidge Road, assistant chief Oakidge Fire. Um very busy month this last month. We had a rather uh nasty, dirty basement fire at a house, but u the folks on a shift managed to do an excellent job. Some of our other personnel that one that lived nearby, some others uh came back in and uh overall ended up being uh no one was hurt. While there was damage, it was restricted just to the area of the basement. So very fortunate. Uh we also had a cardiac call during this month which ended up with a save which in our parlay is when we respond to a call uh CPR is administered uh they got a rhythm back and the person made it successfully to the hospital for further treatment. So um they were not not breathing and no heartbeat and they got them back. So again as this is this has been their month. Um the other thing I'd like to mention is outside fires, brush fires. Uh we have had several of those. Uh those have ended overall well. We've not had any large losses here, but the state uh from the message sent out by Commissioner Troxler. Uh the state's had over 400 I think the number as of this morning was 413 wildfires in the state. We are under a burn ban. Um, and unfortunately the best way to tell someone is under the burn ban, any fire is too much fire. Uh, it can get out, it can run, it can spread rather rapidly. We had one that, um, involved a, uh, they called it a bonfire. It was a large brush pile in the middle of a subdivision. Of course, it upset the neighbors and everything else. But, um, we got it cut off before it got onto a neighboring, uh, farm or got into anyone else's yard. But uh I'm just asking everyone to please, we know

it's pretty, everybody wants to get out and clean up, but please bag your leaves or whatever, pile it up, but do not in the name of God, do not light it. Uh actually the state wildfire folks and and the forestry division actually had a control burn that got out, actually burned the house down. So um it's it's been really really bad. But we'd ask everyone to be careful about that. And as always, please be careful driving around Oakidge with all the construction um passing on the the the waterline construction and down here at 68. Just be very very careful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Sam.

The the next order of business is the evidentiary hearing which was continued from February 5th uh 2026 meeting. It's the special use permit case number SUP 25501. The property is located at 2524 Oakidge Road on the southwestern side of the intersection of Oakidge Road and Bunch Road in Oakidge Township. It is Guilford County tax parcel number 163046. It consists of approximately 3.16 acres, is owned by F2 Homes LLC. The property is zoned RS40 residential and is within the scenic corridor overlay district and the Greensboro uh three watershed overlay. The applicant seeks a special use permit to establish an event center on the above name parcel. Uh again, this is a continuation of of uh of the session we had in in February. Uh but before we start that continuation of this evidentiary hearing, I would like to remind everyone why why we're here and what to expect, I will also reiterate certain procedures that this council must adhere to. This evidentiary hearing was continued by council on February 5th after four hours of sworn testimony and presentation of evidence by the applicant, further discussion, questions from council, and rebuttals from parties withstanding. Based on that evidence, the council made decisions on the following special conditions, and we will not re revisit those tonight. The application submitted by the by the applicant was complete in all respects. The proposed use was will not material endanger the public health or safety if located where where it's proposed and

developed according to the plan submitted. Number three, the use for which the special use permit is sought meets all the required conditions and specifications. What remains to be determined tonight are two remaining special conditions which were continued on February 5th. I will remind you that if s sufficient sufficient evidence is not provided that council could decide to further continue this hearing to a date certain in the future but I hope that will not be the case. The first of the remaining two is the use will will or will not substantially injure the value of adjoining or abudding property or the use uh uh as a public necessity. This special condition was continued because council did not find any factual evidence that that this was addressed on February 5th. The second one is that the location and character of the use if developed according to the plan submitted will or will not be in harmony with the area in which it to be located and is or is not in general conformity with the plan of development of the jurisdiction and its environments. Uh for this uh special condition, there was discrepancy in the views of council members and it was agreed that additional factual information or further proposed restrictions or changes to the site plan could be provided by the applicant hopefully tonight. So we will proceed with this evidentiary hearing on these two special conditions in a few moments. Prior to that, I need to review with council comments previously made on February 5th and to help the council and the public clearly understand the nature of tonight's proceedings.

Okay. So, give me a moment while I dig through.

Yeah, I can find it. Did you find it? I haven't found it yet, but it's it's close by, I'm sure.

Here we go. I've got it. Just hang on. Let me get everything that preceded it. There you All right. Maybe you better sh Thank you. Okay. The o opening comments uh uh before we open this evidentiary hearing for special use permit case SUP2501 or to continue it a request for the amend center in the RS40 zoning district. I'd like to offer a few comments to help the public and council understand the nature of tonight's proceedings. This hearing follows a quasi judicial process, which means the council must base its decision solely on competent, relevant, and substantial evidence. This includes written material submitted by the applicant and available on the town's website, sworn testimony from the applicant or their representative, sworn testimony from others who can offer relevant facts. As part of the process, council must identify factual findings known as findings of fact and then determine whether the application meets the town's requirements for event centers under section 30-1048 of the town's ordinances as well as the general conditions for special use permits under section 30-302. These standards exist to ensure that any special use permit is compatible with the surrounding area, which in this case is an RS40 residential district. Council cannot base its decision on our personal opinion or the opinions of those who speak tonight. We are limited to considering factual evidence that is

competent, relevant, and substantial. And that the direct and that directly addresses our ordinance requirements. The testimony from council may consider it uh is that council may consider is also limited. They may hear from the applicant, town staff, members of the public who could show standing, meaning they will suffer special damages or provide relative facts, relevant facts, and expert witnesses. All testimony is at the discretion of councel, guided by our town attorney, and must be taken under oath, and is legally binding. Because of these restrictions, we may not be able to hear from any everyone who wishes to speak. Even so, the process is impartial and fully open to the public. Uh, if you do speak, whether in support or in opposition, please focus solely on facts and ordinance standards, not personal preferences. Council may only consider evidence tied directly to the relevant sections of our ordinances. After testimony concludes, council will have an opportunity to ask questions and deliberate. And at the conclusion of deliberations, council may approve, approve with conditions, deny or continue the hearing to a date certain disclosures. Before beginning consideration of SUP25-01, I need to ask council for a few dis disclosure questions. Conflict of interest. Because the parties in this case are entitled to an impartial hearing, a council member may not participate if they have a fixed opinion on the outcome, have a financial interest in the outcome, have a close family business or other relationship with the applicant or an affected person. Does any council member have a conflict or

believe they should recuse themselves? Miss Clark, no. Mr. Stone, no. No, Mr. Greon. No. And I do not either.

Exparte communications. Please disclose any exparte communication regarding this case, meaning communication outside this hearing, including site visits, conversations with the applicant, staff, or members of the public. Um, do any council members have an exparte communication to disclose? I'll start here. Uh the the day after the last hearing in fe which would be the 6th of February, I received an email from Mr. Stone who suggested due to the length of our past meeting which was four hours that we might put uh this this continuation on a different date and not in a town council meeting. Uh I responded basically evaluating the interest of the time feeling that we more than likely or certainly hope would not go four hours. Mr. Stone quickly uh suggested that we stop that communication which I did. At no time did I talk about the the conditions of the takes. It was just simply the impact on the time and and his his wish to move it to a different date. Mine was to hopefully uh keep it tonight uh as scheduled and to hopefully do this certainly not much less time than four hours. Um so I I believe that I adhered to the spirit but I did have the communication and I reviewed this with uh Mr. Thomas, our legal counsel uh earlier um actually last month. Okay. U Miss Clark Miss Clark. Um yeah, nothing other than logistics of the meeting. Basically an agenda.

Okay, Mr. Ster. None. Uh I had a resident reach out to me and I referred her to the YouTube and to staff and explained that this was continued from the February meeting. Okay, Mr. Greon. Uh the only one I had was back in probably February. Somebody sent me an email that I mistakenly opened and which I revealed at the last meeting. So that's it. Hang on. I got it. I can't find it.

It's got to be here. If the first page was there, notice our paperless society. I'll look at Sorry, I thought I had everything from the last meeting and you you probably thought the same thing.

Well, and I I mean I had it I had it uh before I came here. So that's it's just so much here. I think I mayor's open comments. I found my copy. Thanks. You found it. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. just so much here. Okay. Um, so we went through that. I do not believe, but I'll check. I do not believe we will um have any presentation from staff. Is that correct, Bill? Sean, no presentation from you. Okay. So, we're now to where the applicant testimony uh comes into play. Uh, and I I as I understand it, and correct me, Mr. Thomas, I think if people were sworn in at the previous session, they do not have to be sworn in again if they spoke in February. Oh, obviously I got that wrong.

Had to remember to push the button for a change. That's correct, Mayor. Um, and you'll be formally here reopening the hearing to receive evidence on the two criteria you noted. And all witnesses previously sworn remain sworn. Any new witnesses uh proposing to present evidence as you described it would need to be sworn. Okay. So the um so we're now ready for the applicant uh group be appropriate to call the applicant or applicants counsel.

Okay. And I would note that any since there's an indication there may be one or more expert witnesses. Those witnesses need to be tendered by an applicant or by a party. Uh the only formal party is the applicant. Uh so uh at any rate witnesses are not freestanding entities. They are introduced by uh a person of interest uh a party or other persons recognized by the statute such as persons with standing. All right. M we'll have the applicants team join us. And

so uh good morning Mr. Good afternoon Mr. Mayor and council members. My name is Marsh Prrowse. I represent the applicant. It's good to be back with you again. I think it was about two months ago we had part one. Uh we are going to present three witnesses, all of whom were not sworn previously. So if it's okay with Mr. Thomas, I'd like to call them now to be sworn before as

Thank you. If they could all be sworn at once, that would be helpful. Yeah. on the Bible right hand in the air. Okay. In the testimony you're about to give, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God.

Yes. Thank you. Simply as a point of order, would would would council prefer that I sit over here on the side as we did last time or back here? I I'm glad to handle it however everyone. Yeah, please. Thank you. And and we'll start with the uh the fourth question uh about Whatever's you comfortable for you.

No, I that's that's fine. But if if you will, we'll start with the um issue number four. The special condition number four is the use will or will not substantially injure the value of adjoining or abing property or the use as a public as a public necessity. Uh thank you Mr. Mayor. Um so the witnesses we'll be presenting include a representative of the applicant who actually will be an employee. they'll be the coordinator for the facility that will be operating the facility. Certainly, that is going to go both to both of the remaining issues. Um the second witness will present is um um Ivan Chang, who is an expert with respect to noise. And the third expert, I should say the third witness will also be an expert, and that's Brian Crowder, who is an appraiser. Um I'm not sure if we can necessarily parse them between the two remaining factors. I would submit that all of them go to really to both of them because the um the impact on property values is tied into the manner in which the facilities operated and the harmony of the facility with the surrounding uses if that's okay with council.

Um yeah but if you will try to stick with one and then we'll flip to the other because we'll have to decide on one before moving. Certainly council has discretion to to allocate as as as you see fit. All right, that being said, I would like to call Jamie Heiser, please, to the stand.

Uh, good evening. Uh, can you please state your full name for the record? Good evening. My name is Jamie Heiser. How about your address? 200 Synica Road, Greensboro, North Carolina 27406. Um, I'm sorry. Speller. Could you say that again? 200. What was the street? Senica Road. Thank you. And there was another question. I missed it. Could you spell your last spell your last name? Yep. Heiser. H I Z E R. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you for being here, Mrs. Heiser. Would would you please summarize what your role is going to be with the proposed event center if it's approved?

So my role would be as the venue coordinator, what that entails is that any person or party who comes to us hoping to host an event or a gathering would meet with me first. Um we discuss what it is they're looking for. We go over our contract. Um, and we make sure that both parties, us and the party that is coming to potentially rent the space, um, are compatible with each other and that their event is compatible with our business plan and how we hope to present to the town.

Um, just by way of background briefly, Mrs. Heiser, do you have prior experience with running venues or events?

I do. I am currently the owner of Pinetop Greenhouse, which is a venue that hosts multiple style events. Um, and I also am an owner of PG Rentals. That is a vintage rental company for events. Um, we specialize in linens, furniture, china, those types of items that you would need in order to host your event properly. As you heard, the council is evaluating the factors of whether this proposed facility would have a negative impact on adjacent property values and also if it would be in harmony with the adjacent land uses. Could you speak to the operational plan for the facility that under your supervision and and and address the potential concerns that have been raised in the manner in which through running the facility you would address those?

I can. So to start with um for our business plan there would be a designated of course phone number with typical business hours Monday through Friday give or take 9 to5. Um, with that there may not be a person on site Monday through Friday if there's not an event or anything happening. There will be days that the venue is sitting empty with no one there present. Um, I am a nurse full-time, 25 years this year in nursing. So, I cannot be present at the venue every day, Monday through Friday, 9 to5. And if no one is there truthfully, there's no need to have a person on site. um anything anyone scheduling to come to the venue is by appointment only and so that way we'll open everything up and we know what the person is there for. With me being a woman especially, security is always a concern. So I want to make sure that I know someone is coming and that someone knows that I am meeting a party on the premises. Um so that is the the start of it. Um, anytime there's a person that comes and tours the property, me or my staff will provide the tour to the property so that the person is not walking the property um, unaccompanied or by themselves. Um, they'll be only a designated areas that pertain to the event that they're hoping to host. Once it is agreed that we agree to host their event, we are the um, fit for what they are looking for. They will then sign our contract which out outlines everything that would be covered. our responsibility and theirs. Um, in my experience, we don't host any events without a party coming with a COI, which is a certificate of insurance. Um, it's pretty standard in the industry for there to be a one to$2 million um, policy that the party brings to cover their event as well as us having our own insurance policy for our facility also.

Um so when they come that has to be provided for events that are going to be kind of the larger gathering typical weddings as an example those our sweet spot we're probably looking at 100 to 125ish people would be the largest we would want to host. So with that it is um my experience that it is required that the couple that is coming to get married also has to hire an insured planner and coordinator. While I would be the venue coordinator, I am not a wedding coordinator. Those are two different things. um that is a vendor that comes in that is insured that also provides all the contracts that that person that is wanting to host the wedding has gathered for all of their vendors. Um and we make sure that they have their insurance policies in place prior to any event taking place. And they're also aware of the contract between us as the venue and the couple that is renting the space. All Oh, I'm sorry.

Didn't mean to interrupt. Go ahead. I was going to say all vendors that come on such as catering, florist, um, musicians, hair and makeup artist, anything that you would catering that you would use for a wedding or event have to be insured vendors. So, those are going to be more of the vendors that you see, the small local businesses here and in the surrounding area to support those the event that's taking place. Yeah, you you've touched on a number of things just now and I'd like to mention a couple of them and ask you to comment specifically on them. You did mention security. Is there a plan for security?

Um, there is a plan for security. Um, so when you host an event on the space, if especially if there is alcohol involved, I have asked in the contract that there be if your gathering has more than 50 people, you are to hire one security officer that must be on site from the start of your event until the end of your event. That is a third-party contract. There are services for that. um the Guilford County Sheriff's Department. Those officers there sometimes pick up offduty shifts. That is our first go-to. And then there are other thirdparty services for security. If you hit the number of 100 guests or expected guests for your event, I have asked that there be a minimum of two offduty security officers. as the venue coordinator. It will be in the contract that when those officers arrive on site, I have asked that they immediately come and find me as the venue coordinator, we will have headsets so that I am in constant communication from the start of the event to the end of the event, not only with the security officers that are on site, but also with the wedding or event coordinator, who would be that person I mentioned earlier that is actually in charge of the event. Yeah.

And the role of those officers if are to patrol the premises. They are to patrol the parking lot by having constant communication with that officer. If there is any issue that arises, whether it is inside of the actual house or on the property, there is immediate communication to dispatch them to what is needed. We hope that by having all insured professional vendors on site um that that will also set a higher standard for every event. and help facilitate or negate a lot of the problems that you sometimes see. Do do you have a plan for parking?

There are designated 38 parking spots that are in the plan currently. Um we also have off-site parking. That is not unusual for that to be in any event contract. Couples are made aware from the start. It is part of ensuring that we are a good fit for what they are looking for and they are a good fit for us. In my experience, there is a great company here in the Triad, um, Triad Adventures Code. They offer a trolley service, which is we've had great experiences with our couples and their ability to transport, um, guests from point A to point B. Where where will the off-site parking be?

Um, we have spoken with Dr. Whitney Oakley here for Guilford County Schools and talked about having off-site parking at the school. and we've spoken to the Guilford County facilities manager. Which school? I'm sorry. Which school? Oakidge Elementary would be the one that we've we've asked for.

What What about um mix of indoor versus outdoor events and to the extent there are outdoor events or honestly for any events what measures will be taken to ensure that there are not noise problems from the venue? So depending on the number or what the event is, primarily the focus is inside of the house. Um if the number negates that we need to have an outdoor space, it is my recommendation to always have some kind of structure like a tent or anything like that. As far as the noise that you're referring to, um you typically have an MC, which is your DJ that kind of helps guide along the timeline for the event. We have in-house speakers um that we provide where we lock out that they cannot go above a certain level of noise. Um I know we have someone here tonight that is more of an expert on that. I can help you with flowers, decor, and all of that, but I have limited knowledge when it comes, but we do have a professional that will speak more in depth and be able to answer those questions more directly for you. Um, how about uh what what has been done to address potential uh traffic issues as far as uh re recognizing certainly you're not a traffic engineer, anything like that, but just as far as regulating um and controlling the flow of traffic when an event concludes, for instance.

So, one of the things we as I mentioned earlier, we'll have the trolley. A trolley um is like a small bus just a little bit more decorative kind of more the style you see like San Francisco. Those typically hold a larger amount of people. So knowing that a couple books our venue that that is the recommendation that we have that we'll have that partnership with that company. That's probably 30 to 50 people at one time that they load up and they transport. It's one vehicle leaving the property to go to another designated spot for overflow parking. Um, as I mentioned earlier, the couple is already aware that we have only so many slots available on site and it's in the contract that an overflow parking is expected.

I've heard you refer a few times now to a contract. Is are is that basically uh to um um the agreement between the venue and the the customers who are using the venue for an event?

That is correct. Uh it is professional standard in the industry when you are a legitimate business that no event takes place without a contract. It is to serve to protect us as the venue but also to serve and ensure professional standards and safety are met for the client that is wanting to rent the venue. It very clearly outlines what the expectations are and protects both parties and sets a standard of professionalism that I'm used to running. U just one more question on the parking. To the extent there is on-site parking, would security be involved in assisting with the flow of u vehicles into and out of the site? Is that part of that role?

That is correct. As security is um out on the premises, I want everyone to clearly see that from the beginning that there is an officer that is on site when cars are coming into the property, when guests are coming into the property. The security officer is to be visible. So all times and then at the end of the night it is my expectation es especially when there are two officers that they are to be out helping to escort guests to their cars and to make sure that they safely leave the premises. So that's loading onto the trolley and getting the trolley safely to the overflow parking.

You've talked a little bit about attendance thresholds at which various safeguards kick in. What is the maximum number of attendees that would be at an event at this facility?

So, we've asked for a capacity of 150. I've asked that weddings be capped at 100 to 125. I realize I'm asking for a larger number. The reason for that is when you host professional events, it requires professional teams coming in. I wanted to have a little bit of flexibility to ensure if a guest, so if someone comes in and rents and they have a hundred guests they're expecting, that allows for on-site security officers, caterers, me as the venue coordinator, their coordinator, any musician that they would have, um, any staff, whether it be a professional painter for musicians, any of that. It allows for the flexibility of vendors to be able to come and go. So just to be clear, are you telling the council that all in at most there would be 150 people present between attendees and people who are working?

That is correct. That number en encompasses both guest and staff, but the staff number fluctuates. So it would be very unusual to hit the actual 150.

Can you comment briefly on your operating hours? I know you talked about your office hours, but as far as the events themselves, what hours would they be conducted during? So for the events um in the wedding industry especially I use that as an example because that's what my primary experience is. It is not uncommon to offer tours because most people work the standard 9 to5. It is very common to offer a tour say from maybe 5:00 p.m. to maybe 7 7:30 8:00 at night. Um, those tours typically can be scheduled every 30 minutes to every 45 to every hour depending on what the event is and who's actually coming on site, if they're coming with their planner, if it's just the couple or or their parents. Um, so you may see me sometimes in the evening walking the property. Again, it's escorting guests to their designated areas. And then for weekends when there are events, it's in the contract that all events end by 9:00 p.m. Now, I would still be on the property afterwards as the venue coordinator or someone from my team because there's the after hours you have to do the cleaning up of the trash, breaking down of tables and chairs, um taking out trash to the dumpster, those kind of things that need to be insured to make sure that the property is kept in a clean, professional and safe manner.

So, staff would be on after 9 for how long? Um it is very standard for one hour afterwards. We can typically break down a wedding of up to 200 250 people in an hour and that includes all caterers coming on site, florist, musicians, everyone that is typically hired. It is very standard for there to be 1 hour after the couple exits. So if they exit at 9, everything would be broken down give or take by 10 p.m. And that is that's across the industry. It's it's normal. So, the events would only go on during the weekend.

Um, there may be events that go on during the week. We cannot legally discriminate against anyone. We have a preferred vendors list. It is um a list that we recommend that any guests coming onto the property use. These are vendors that we know are insured. They have a high level of service and professionalism that we are looking to associate our name with. Um, and with that, I'm so sorry. Excuse me. Trying here. Can you repeat the question? I'm so sorry. If I may, the question was, I know you had said that on the weekend the events would be over by 9ine and that raised the issue of, well, would there be events during the week?

Thank you. Um, so as I was saying, we cannot legally discriminate. One of our preferred wedding planners specializes in what they call Indian fusion weddings. These weddings are typically done over three to four days. So with maybe the first day there may be a two-hour event. You would have a team that would come in, florist, maybe a caterer, things like that that come in and set up prior. The event lasts two hours and then you may have an hour or two of breakdown and they they switch things out for the event the next day. It is very common for those events to start on a Thursday and go Thursday, Friday, Saturday.

What would you say the ending time on like a Thursday? I mean, it's still nine. The 9:00 would be the latest, but there would be no music then. No, no. The noise ordinance and it's in the contract that all music must be stopped at 9:00.

But on a week night for school kids, probably not good. I'm a mother of five. My kids bedtimes are different for everything. But just because there's an event going on, the assumption that there's a music at every event is not always accurate. Some of the events that take place in those two hours don't always happen at night. It is very common for some of those events to happen in the afternoon or the early evening. And there is no music. It's a celebration of things like fertility, of the couple wishing them wealth and success. So, there may not be music at all of those events,

but we have to look at the worst case. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, if you play music during the week when there's kids going to school till 9:00, I mean, that's your choice, but it's our choice to put either turn it down or correct or put stipulations on it. Yeah. Well, there's a stipulation in the ordinance on it being only indoors. Is that correct? And only up to a certain decel level. Correct. Mr. Taylor, can you confirm that?

Well, that would probably be the Guilford County 10 o'clock, I think, is their deal. 10 o'clock. 10 o'clock. Right. So, this is earlier than 10 o'clock, right? But who's going to who's going to check out the noise problem that we have? What do they do if there's noise? Let's just say they hire somebody to go out and check their noise decibb and they're over that. Who do they call or do we just pull the I would expect noise complaints to be routed to the Guilford County Sheriff's Department. But y'all don't handle that

for the noise ordinance. We absolutely would. There's a clause in the contract that states that any noise that goes above what we already have set. Keep in mind they're using our equipment that is already preset and pre-locked out. We have an expert that's going to testify to that here shortly. So they can't go above a certain noise level. Okay. So you have an internal setting, correct? That where we lock it out and they can't go higher than that. It's in the contract that they have to use our in-house equipment. How about for noise from the crowd? Do you have anything to calm them down?

Um, we have security on site for crowds and then also as the venue coordinator and with professionals coming in to host the event, it will help contain and direct how the proceedings would go. But weddings during the week, they do happen. You are correct. Those are typically smaller weddings and they don't run late because people, most people guessed the couple themselves have to report to work the next day. As I stated earlier, with me being a nurse, it is not uncommon for me to have to be in the O three. I have to get up 3 or four o'clock in the morning sometimes. Um, and I would control the contracts for what could be scheduled when? I just have one more question. Okay. The trolley.

Yes. Do you plan on unloading on the street or do you have enough parking place for if you have a 100 car or 50 cars there, do you have room enough for that trolley to pull into your parking lot and turn around safely instead of parking out on the street? Um, there would be a designated spot for the trolley to be able to maneuver safely. Um, and then to also go to the overflow parking and have space there. Sorry, I was going to say, is that shown on the site plan? Is there a revised site plan that shows where that would be?

The parking lot would be there when we know that there's going to be an event that the trolley is coming for. It is not uncommon because you already have the contract with that company um to have designated parking blocked to allow for that. In that case where there's already 38 spots, we know that we would block however many spots needed to fit the trolley and what it would need to do. which means that the number of spots used for parking for that event would be decreased and that that's just more cars that could go to overflow parking. I mean, I just don't see in the site plan where it would turn around like if it comes in. That was my question. Where would it turn around at in the parking lot?

I mean, I would need someone to show me. I think I'm understanding the question. My understanding is that the site plan has been approved and that's not one of the um that that's the things that council has already uh approved of. That's part of the part of this that's already been approved. I mean, we said it met the requirements have a trolley. Yeah. If there's a new trolley, then Yeah. I mean, this trolley wasn't brought into the equation earlier. Well, I they've just said they would block off sufficient spaces to fit in the trolley. I mean, it's got to turn around, right? But you see there

there's only one entrance in there, right? But you you there are all sorts of ways a trolley could go in and out. I mean, that that's their job.

Yeah. It's a professional company that would be hired. I don't have the expertise. I don't drive I drive a large SUV as a mom of five, but I don't have a trolley. um I should probably think about it but I don't have one. Um so it would be with that company and one of the things they would evaluate is are those issues too because they want to make sure that their clients are safe at all times too. Again that comes back to professional standards in the contract. Well, I'm just saying I before I approve a plan, I would want to see how it was feasible. And I don't I mean, could someone explain to me how a trolley essentially a small bus could come in and turn around?

We don't mind recalling Mr. Greco to the stand, who is our u site planning expert who is in a better position to address this issue. Okay. Um but um I I have no further questions for Mrs. Heiser. Is there anything we haven't touched on that you think you should mention at this time? Um, I know lighting was brought up as a concern previously. Um, I did state um, in our plan that all of course walkways, sidewalks, that kind of thing would have lowle lighting or low I think they call it is it low direct lighting? Is that what it's called?

Low lighting for those kind of issues. Um, also cafe lighting. Um it was a concern with the neighbors of how much light would be towards their properties. Um again for weddings you're looking for intimate atmosphere, low lighting. Um and the lights would be turned off again with the music. So or right after the music when we're done shutting down. No bright lights, anything like that. We're looking to create atmosphere. Um we're not looking to land airplanes. So we want low-level lighting for cafe lighting, that kind of things. Um, I guess I do have a few more questions if you were uh uh certainly council is tend to the witness. Uh, sure. Tend to the witness. Uh, for

council can ask any questions uh they may have. Yeah. Um, so I guess uh a couple things. One, you said that if alcohol was involved and greater than 50 people or greater than 100 people. Um, what are the terms I guess as far as security if no alcohol is involved or if there's smaller events less than 50 people? Um, what about those scenarios? So if there if the guest count goes above 50, there has to be security on site. That is a safety personal safety issue for me. You're saying regardless of alcohol or regardless of alcohol. Okay. Yes. So regardless if we hit that 50 person mark, there needs to be a security officer on site for safety reasons.

Okay. And then what about uh events under 50 people? What are you asking me specifically? Oh, just in terms of security. I just because you said how security would be for larger groups, you know, greater than 50. I was wondering if there's any consideration for less than 50. So, it's always an option for a person to come in and hire security for their event, but typically under 50. Um, I don't always feel like that's necessary. It's more manageable. They're already bringing in professional vendors to handle their event. Um, and so security is an option, but under 50, we same thing. If there was something to take place, we would call the Guilford County Sheriff's Office.

Okay. So, even I guess even really small events would have to have professional insured vendors. If a vendor comes on site, they need to be professional and insured. Yes. Okay. So, I guess someone could have a small event um without a vendor, without a coordinator. I guess I'm kind of thinking the opposite end of things. Um, like I know you're covering the more concerning, you know, large events, but I'm just curious about the terms of smaller gatherings if there's any um restrictions on those or kind of plans. So, I'm assuming you're referring to things like baby showers, things like that. Sure. Yeah.

Okay. Those typically don't always they don't need a coordinator typically. They're typically planned by the family. There's still a contract on our end as stated. anyone that comes on the property for an event has to have the contract in place. And so that contract would just cover things like operating hours, I guess, still noise and all that, but not security and all those details, right? Our requirements for security are listed in the contract. Yeah. So, I noticed that we have a contract before us. Is that entered into evidence? I Mr. Thomas, I remember you said this packet that we received wasn't entered into evidence yet.

What? Not been introduced yet. There's been nothing else introduced this evening. Um, okay. I do have another brief question. You said that you were um speaking to uh I guess the schools about having parking at the school. Have you heard back from them or gotten that approval or what's the status of that? Um it. We have been told that for a fee we could rent the space for overflow parking. That is correct. Okay.

And going back to your question about when there are smaller events for 50, our staff will also be on site. I am here as the venue coordinator, but I also have business partners that would be on site or in the area that could also come on for for things that would could potentially take place. Okay. question if I might on redirect briefly. Uh just let me any other questions for council on Mr. Stone.

So um we jumped off of the question from earlier about the hours of operation. The ordinance says it's um the event uh with amplified music can be held outside between the hours of 9 um a.m. and 900 pm. Um and that outside event activities shall be um concluded. Uh no outside activities shall be conducted after 11:00 p.m. So I I just want to get clarity here. You said the operating hours for events would end at 900 p.m. So that means 9:00 a.m. to 900 p.m.

Correct? So, you're offering a a change from the ordinance because last time we were in this chamber, it was that you were going to apply or you're going to abide by the ordinance. The ordinance says there can be outside activities um up until 11 p.m. So, you're saying that there will be no activities outside after 900 p.m. Hopefully, just me taking out the trash. No, no other events taking place after 9. And the contract right now, it currently states events and music would end at nine.

Okay. And I appreciate that, but hopes a lousy strategy. So I'm asking you are outside event activities going to be conducted after 900 pm event activities. No. Okay. So the only the only activity after 9 will be the breakdown and clean. Correct. Yes. And one other question. I thought you said earlier that music amplified music was only going to be allowed inside. Are you not allowing amplified music outside?

Um, it is outside, but again, it comes back to our in-house equipment that is required. And then, like I said, we have the expert that will speak on that. So, he'll speak to the specific noise level that you were talking about. Correct. That's correct. Question. I can't see very good. Is there a fence along the to uh for security for the houses, people going into the woods and going across properties? I missed the last part of your question. I'm sorry. Is there a fence around there to so people can't drift through the woods and go into the uh Yes, it's required. It's required. And security will also be patrolling when they're on site too for that to make sure people remain in designated areas.

No further questions. I might on redirect. Um m Mrs. Heiser, there's been some discussion of uh the contract and um I believe that there may have been a contract discussed at the first part of this hearing, but I I have a document that has your name on it. I'd like to hand it to you and ask you if you can explain to the council what it is. Does everybody have theirs?

So, what you have before you is a draft of a proposed contract. um without having everything finalized. This is just a draft. We've been working with attorneys and making sure that we come up. This is pretty standard what you see in here um and the items that it covers. As circumstances arrive, it will be um tweaked to cover those. An example of what I'm referring to, last weekend we had a wedding for 100 people. The groom is 82nd airborne and was deployed literally the week of the wedding and the wedding was postponed. Um, that is an event I've never had to come across in all of my years. So, that is not currently in my contract with my rental business. It will be moving forward and how we handle it. So, as unique situations like that arise, the contract will absolutely get tweaked, but that was a circumstance that I've never had that happen before. So this is just a proposed draft. Um you can see that it does list out things of what time the event has to end. Um the insurance policy is mentioned in here. The damage policy. It talks about no live flame or that's um even the fire candles, taper candles, anything like that would be allowed on site. Um, it talks about the things that we would meet to honor the couple that was coming on, such as tables, chairs, that kind of thing. Um, is all covered in here. Alcohol is covered in the contract. The capacity is clearly listed in the contract and it says um, if you look on page six of seven at number one, events exceeding this number are not permitted. So, we tried to spell out as clearly as possible. It talks about the event period times that the person could be on

site for events. Um, how the noise has to be moved inside, penalties, parking is covered in this, alcohol permits, anytime alcohol is brought onto the property, um, decorations, making sure that all trash is picked up, all of that we tried to list in here. Again, this is just a draft. As things come up, the contract would be tweaked again. But is that a true and accurate copy of the draft as it currently exists based on your personal involvement with it? Correct. Yes, Mr. Mayor. We'd move that into evidence as applicants exhibit one. Agreed.

So, I see that it says the capacity is 150, but it doesn't explain what you explained to us that that means 125 guests plus vendors. How do you convey that information?

So, as we delve into the contract and tweak it, this was just a draft. Um, that will be specifically listed out. Um, also a page would be provided that has our preferred vendors that we recommend and we like to work with that are on here that would be added. Um, circumstances like what I ran into last week and I did not have time to add that to this contract, but things like that would be added in. So, a a final contract would be more in-depth. This is just a draft. Thank you. Your contract says that um setup can start at 8:00 a.m. So your operating hours then are from 8 a.m. to 1000 p.m.

Hypo. That's my fault. I apologize for that. It should say 9:00 a.m. Should say 9. Yep. I apologize. I missed that. While we're here, sorry. Thank you.

He had a question as well in that uh same paragraph. It says uh persons can remain in the building for final cleanup until 10:00. All noise must be moved inside the building with windows and doors closed after 9:00 p.m. out of respect for neighbors. Um so is that saying that cleanup can happen outside until 10:00, but then the party might still be going on inside after 9 or what's typically when an event ends at 9:00, the bridal party, again using weddings as an example, would go inside to collect their belongings. The event would end at 9:00. That allows for us again the hour to clean up, but it's not uncommon for the bridal parties to go in, change into out of their dresses, their tuxedos, that kind of thing, gather belongings, and still be able to get back out of the door.

Okay. So, that's where it says that they can remain in the building for final clean up until 10.

Correct. And that allows caterers to be able to go in and out to clean up. Um, florists to be able anybody that came as a vendor on site that may have items stored inside to be able to collect. Even as a rental company, we typically have crates and linen bags and all that kind of stuff that we store inside the facility in a designated area. On the second, excuse me, on the second page in the insurance damage deposit, second paragraph, I'm assuming the 1 million to 2 million should have dollar signs in front of it as far as C as far as coverage is concerned. the option choose the one million or two million

right so it's $1 million and $2 million 1 million is a minimum right but the standard is one to2 million I just have one last question on the security yes sir are you in charge of security or is the person who hires them in charge of security

there would be a contract for that um for the security part of it I am once they come on site I ensure that all um personnel. So I would work with the planner to ensure that all vendors on site are the vendors that are supposed to be there. Security would be one of those hired contracts that I would ensure that they are where they are supposed to be. It is it would be in that contract that they must meet with me to pick up their headsets so we can confirm the channels that I'm on the same channel as the planner. Security is on the same channel as the planner. Also, I just want to make sure that the person who's renting the facility doesn't say, "Oh, you don't need to look. Don't worry about it. We're fine." No, it's in the contract. I don't work like that.

I'm just checking. And can you on page three, I guess it is. Can you comment on overnight stays? It's I'm looking near the bottom and and maybe that doesn't apply here. I don't know. That's really page five. Five of seven. I'm sorry. on page three. On page five, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm so sorry. I was on page three. My fault. My chief readers don't let me see too close down here, so

Oh, sorry. Um, it's in there for now. It doesn't mean that it's going to stay in there. We actually um have some of the people here in town have offered up their homes as Airbnbs. So, it's going to be more tweaked. We have it in there as a placeholder, but it would be more referring them over to the Airbnb. Okay. But as stated, it it suggests that there could be people inside after 10:00 for overnight stays is what I'm reading or it's just a placeholder in the contract. This is a draft. Okay. So, but is the intent to allow that or the intent to move them to Airbnbs?

The intent would be to move them to a Airbnb. I had been working on that in the background. So, I wanted a placeholder in the contract so we would know where to put it. Um, but the intent would be to have them moved off site. All right. So, let me just ask directly. Will there be any overnight guests? Do I count as a guest? I'm just asking for clarification. Uh, there may be a night that I stay out there. If we have an event that goes till 10:00 and maybe there's a brunch the next day, it is very possible that I would stay overnight in the facility. Our staff would stay overnight. Okay. Is uh is But will guests stay overnight? No, they'll be referred to the Airbnb.

Go ahead, Mr. Taylor. Is there any problem with the SUP with staff staying overnight? There's no limitation on that that I see or restriction. It's not really addressed. I mean, the property is still zoned residential, too. Good point. Thank you. All right. Thank you very much. I'm just going to ask council, do you do you need a few minutes to read through this? I'm good. I'm good. I'm good.

Oh, I'll just read it. It's fine. I I would like to skim it a little more, but um I can do it at my leisure and come back to it. Okay. So, we don't need time to read this document. It's a draft. Okay. D It's a draft. Yes.

Okay. Thank you very much. You you if you want to hold on to it, that's fine. We have extra copies. Um, very briefly, I'd like to uh recall Mr. Greco to the stand. He was tendered and accepted as an expert witness at the first part of this quasi judicial hearing. And uh he's probably the best person in the room to address the question that was raised about uh the maneuvering and parking for the uh the courtesy shuttle aka trolley. Phil Grio, PO Box 347, Oakidge. Uh, with regards to, uh, internal vehicles circulation, this site plan has been reviewed and approved by not only staff, also council. Everything about the parking, the drive aisles, uh, the flow internally, uh, has been well thought out. All the dimensions are there. And for a trolley, just for the sake of running through the exercise, when you are aware that you're going to be utilizing off-site parking for an event in the northern parking bay there that runs east west, you simply block off the space in the middle. The trolley pulls in the entrance, comes on around, pulls into that space, then backs up. Uh that sidewalk that is parallel to the southern edge of the parking lot is where we would have our guests in a queue waiting to leave on the trolley. Uh that's typically how you would see that circulation. Uh if a trolley is parked parallel to the sidewalk, you're still going to have 14 ft of aisle, which is 2 feet greater than fire code allows. Alternatively, uh you could certainly pull in the entrance, uh head south and back up, uh and end up parallel to the same sidewalk. Uh the third way that maneuver could be accomplished is just pull into the sidewalk and then you have to back out east west uh and make that turn. But everything about the site plan

dimensionally uh geometrically certainly accommodates uh the trolley. Okay. Thank you. Real quick, Mr. Greco, at the school where the the satellite parking will be occurring, are there adequate spaces there given that school buses are accessing the school on a regular basis? So, that would there be any issues with a trolley being able to get in and out of the school parking area? No, certainly at the school, they would have uh similar uh design standards that have been adhered to and they would have adequate space there to do any maneuvering they need to. Thank you. I have no further questions. questions for

a question about the the fence. Just help me again know where the fence is going to go to separate the residential area so that people won't be Yes, sir. The ordinance requires a fence uh around our perimeter. So, we have a tree preservation area adjacent to all of our neighboring properties. Uh then we will install the opaque fencing which also helps with sound and then we will be planting all of our required buffer yards. So yes, there is a fence all the way around the perimeter excluding the road frontage on excluding road

NC150. Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Greco. At this point, applicant wants to call Ivan Chang to the stand. Good evening, Mr. Chang. Thank you for being here. Hello. Um, could you please state your full name for the record? Yes. First name Ivan, last name C H E N G Chang.

Uh, and Mr. Chang, uh, how about, uh, your prof, um, office address? Office address is 3980, sweet 110, High Point, North Carolina, 27265. Uh, do you have uh, professional credentials or certifications with respect to uh, addressing sound and noise issues? I do. Uh I am uh CTS certified which is certified technology specialist uh industry uh it's industry standard for the audio video commercial and residential industry

and on a regular basis do you go into different environments or facilities to evaluate sound issues relating to those facilities including for instance the facility at issue in this hearing?

Yes we do. Um so for commercial spaces, boardrooms, uh internal event centers for corporations, we do have to set up uh sound monitoring so that we know how far that we're allowed to and what our parameters are to set up AV equipment, whether it's for live events or uh local and distant presentations, whether it's a Zoom or or Microsoft Teams uh remote conferencing. So, we do we do testing on a regular basis in all different types of events whether it's a live event center or if it's in a commercial or corporate setting as well well as education.

Have you reviewed the uh venue at issue in this case in terms of potential noise control and sound issues relating to it? So yes, I actually went to the site uh set up a a speaker, played music. I have a uh sound pressure level meter that we can we set up and measure volume of audio and what I did and I think there's a presentation packet in front of you with slides. I also have a live slide uh show if needed

and we we will get to that in a minute. Um, let me just ask you real quick first because I want to get you established as an expert witness before you go further. Uh, are you familiar with the science of propagation of sound and sound measurements? Yes, that's part of the certification that I hold as a CTS. That's all involved in uh measuring sound uh sound distance travel so on so forth. How long have you been doing this for? I've been in the audio video bit business since 1991. So, I've been doing this for quite some time. I've held several different roles in the industry.

Uh, at this point, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to tender Mr. Chang as an expert with respect to measurement and modeling of noise levels. That's fine. Okay. Um, uh, sorry to interrupt you a few minutes ago, Mr. Chang. Now that you've been accepted as an expert witness, do you want to go ahead and describe to the council your methodology and the testing that you did on the property with respect to the noise issues? Absolutely. So, um audio is just okay. I have slides with audio because there is a short video. I don't know if that's going to be needed. Okay. All right. Are you comfortable proceeding with the slides?

Absolutely. Sure. Okay. So, I set up a small speaker and you can see that um in the middle of the screen, the black rectangular item. Uh I had music playing. We'll show the decibel level at the speaker, but from approximately 15 ft away facing the outward uh sound of the speaker, we're sitting at 63.4 dB. Uh this is a app that I have that we use as uh as an indust as an industry and it shows what the sound level is uh from any distance any direction. So you can see as I take the photograph it states up there that it's 63.4 dB.

Just to be clear that's is that the number in the upper left hand corner? That is correct. And just to to to qualify and quantify so to speak, uh this application before we use it each and every time is calibrated before use. So it is correctly displayed. Before you go any further, just you've you heard the testimony of the of the first witness of of M Mrs. Heiser. Is that correct? Um and you heard there was some discussion about the standards for sound for the facility. Sure. Could you could you explain your understanding of what the the standard is that this facility has to meet and how that related to what to the work?

Certainly. So, it's it was my understanding that I was I was told, excuse me, that 80 dB at the neighboring property line or the the end of the property line of the of the potential event space could not be above 80 dB. So, this particular photo shows 61.4 dB, approximately 25 foot away. Um, and I'm facing the speaker. I'm at the speaker here at this point, approximately 2T away at 80 dB. So, in the summary, no, you could you can go to the next one, but in the summary, it will it will explain, but I'll I'll also mention it now. Audio is sound is linear. So right now I I show 80 dB at the speaker. But if we increase that to 100 dB, all these levels will increase equally. So if I increase it to 100, obviously that's a 20 decel gain increase. So at this point, if that was at 100 dB, this would be 20 points more at 65. So it always increases and decreases in a linear rate. It's not exponential. Um this I'm actually um to the left side of the face of the speaker. So um obviously the sound's not going to travel as loud when you're beside or behind the speaker. But I placed the speaker so that it was away from the neighboring property so it would give the effect and also probably the optimal place. Now granted, I don't have anything to do with where they're going to put the equipment, but in my professional opinion, that's the optimal location and direction for where the

guest would be be able to hear the music, whether it was a band or a DJ. So, this music is playing, same song, same music, non-stop. Uh, 45.8 dB, 30 ft away, standing to the left of the speaker. And then this is facing the neighboring property. Music still playing. Uh, distance is the way the crow flies, not the way. I had to walk about 40 ft. And I am behind the speaker face on this one. and I'm facing the neighbor's property line at 41.9 dB. So again, part of what I wanted to show is or explain audio being linear, sound being linear, if we increased the sound volume of the speaker to 100 dB, which it's 80 now, this would increase 20 dB. So you would be at 60 61.9 dB. And then no no music playing. We're at 45.4. 4 dB. Keeping in mind this is uh 8:32 a.m. in the morning. So there's traffic going by. There's construction going on in the house. There's uh wildlife, birds, what have you that is creating some of this noise. And then at no music, with no music playing and ambient sound around being the construction, the live uh wildlife, what have you. 39.4 dB. Here was a video showing that I played the music and it would the video actually does show the fluctuation in sound. Um it's showing 73.1 but I did hit a point where it was 77.1 dB. Same spot um where I started and then I walked

towards the neighboring house to the property line and it does show at the property line at that point my highest uh sound pressure level reading was 44.7 dB. And then this was the same walk but with no speaker or no music playing starting at 44.5 and getting to the property line at 36.6 dB. Why was it quieter at the property line? Traffic noise. Well, less traffic noise plus

there is a tree line that I had to go around. Um, so there are items that will absorb. And then one of the things that they have mentioned is they will have uh shrubbery as well as a fence. So if we were to go back after everything is constructed and finished, the actual readings would be different because the trees and the fence would absorb a lot of that sound as well. So Mr. Thomas, is now a time to ask questions or do we need to wait? You can interrupt at any time and ask questions. Uh or you can wait till you're Well, I'd like to ask a question now. Absolutely.

Can you tell me what you sus you expect the speakers to be set at? What decibb? So, because you can say, you know, what if they set them at 200? Sure. They can they they they can set them. They got 80 over here at the house. I mean, I need to know what it would be set at. So that would be determined once they acquire and procure their equipment, what equipment they have.

She said it was a predetermined, right? So what happens is if 80 dB at 9:00 p.m. is your ordinance, then the amplifiers can be preset so that when someone cranks the volume all the way up to max, it will never exceed 80 dB. Can you play 80 dB for us? I know you got a phone. You can do a lot of things with phones right now. Can we hear that? I can get a sound pressure level meter and speak into the microphone and put the put the meter at so that you can see what 80 dB is. Is that okay, Mr. Thomas? If we could listen. I'd like to now keep in mind I have not calibrated this before this meeting. So, are you okay with that?

Let me ask you preliminarily like like give some examples. For instance, what is the level of sound that would damage someone's ears? the number 200 was thrown out. Would you ever No, no one would ever do that. Um 107 will damage. Well, I'm just saying that, right? I understand what you're saying, but I'm just giving a reference point. 107 is when uh hearing damage will take place. I would just like to hear what the 80 dB sound like at the neighbor's property. For the record, Mr. Chang, are we going to be hearing what 80 dB will sound like on the neighbor's property? what 80 dB will sound like at the source.

You tell me how you want to do it. I can stand right here and what the right now what it's picking up. I don't know if you can see it or not. That's 75 dB from here to the speaker. So that's at the source. That's not not 100t away. Well, no, this will be if I spoke into the microphone and held this up there, that would be at the source. Oh, because the speaker's up there, right? So we are 12 feet away from the source further

any. Yeah. I guess my question is um during this sound assessment was there not discussion of determining where the speakers would be placed, how high the speakers would go, how many speakers there would be and then from that plan determining that that met the ordinance requirement of 80 dB. So again, my professional opinion when I was on site, I did not did not discuss this with any of the uh owners, but I placed the speaker where I thought it would best suit the events space. That's where they should put it when they set up. That's where a DJ would want to put theirs if there was a band. That's where they would want to put their speakers. Now again, was there a discussion on how high the speakers were or which direction? No, there wasn't. Again, I use that as my professional opinion. If the speakers the speaker I placed was down on the ground, if they were elevated to 6 ft, the bottom of the speaker to 6 feet, then the the audio is still going to produce a certain level. and at 80 dB it will produce 45 at the neighbor's property line. If we increase that to 100 it will increase 20 dB. So in order to hit 80 dB at the property line we would have to increase the sound at the speaker 40 dB. At that point, we're at 120 and we're creating a hazard to guests.

Yeah, I guess that's a question I'm not familiar with. What is the typical uh noise level of the speaker for events that might be in a tent with 100 people? Um, is there

that's up to the people playing the music or people governing what gets played and how loud it gets played. So hopefully this po this this will answer your question. Once the owners get everything purchased and set up, a professional can come in or even them possibly as well as you can come govern how loud we set the maximum gain on the amplifier so that if someone does DJ decides he wants to go wild and he cranks it all the way up to max, it will never exceed 80 dB at the property line. So that can be set in stone and locked out so that no one can modify that without proper equipment

because it's done through it can be done through a computer and once you set the highest gain no one can do anything to increase that gain

and that's the way that based on what I've heard if they're going to provide the equipment then that's they're policing it themselves. Uh, I want to answer make some clarification real quick on the noise part of this. Um, and this just goes back to what was put into the into the events that are ordinance with G noise. Electronic amplified sound generated in conjunction with any event shall not be located within 100 ft of residentially zoned properties and not exceed 80 dB at any time. Uh one of the things that they put on their site plan is that 100 foot distance. So the sound cannot be at that line cannot exceed 80 dB at that 100 ft distance from the property lines

measured from the property line. So you can't be 80 dB at the property line. Mr. Tay, let me ask a question because that's uh that's a little surprising to me. When we developed the ordinance, the way that that I envisioned and read this was that electronic amplified sound generated in conjunction with any event shall not be located within um shall not be located within 100 ft of residentially zoned properties. Stop. Yes.

And not to exceed 80 dB at any time. Not 80 dB at 100 ft. No, that's you can't that you are correct. It can't exceed 80 dB at the speaker at any time at the speaker measured from that the measurement would be at that 100 foot marks where I was trying to get at. So it could be 120 at the speaker. No, it can't be 100. And that's what I want to clarify. It can only be 80 dB at the speaker. Yes. Uh, I guess I read it as the game.

Um, if you had the speaker next to the parking lot, let's say, that might have the sound only be 80 dB at that sound barrier. Or if there were speaker at the sound barrier, it could only be set at 80 dB. All right? Like cuz if you had it if you said 80 dB here at the 100 foot barrier if it was you know another 100 feet that way in theory it could be louder right as long as

No it's it's a 80 is the set level within the whole property and that 100 ft buffer is basically you can't have any speakers within that buffer. That's not what we said at the last February. If I can raise a point there on that, if 80 dB at the speaker is the maximum level based on your ordinance, there are probably many, many, many violations in people's homes right now when they watch a movie and have the surround sound turned up. That's more than 80 dB when you watch a movie. But they're not an event center.

I understand that. I'm just saying I I I can see where the original point was at a 100 foot distance it can't exceed 80 dB. But again, I I'm not here to argue the the the ordinance. I'm just here to tell you what my findings are. Yeah.

Yeah. And I will say I think there's an issue with that because in the February meeting I asked where the 80 dB would be measured and I forget who but someone did advise it'd be measured at the property line and then that's where the conversation continued saying you know who would measure it at the property line yada yada. So it was a whole thing. So for switching gears to say now it can't be greater than 80 dB anywhere that might create an issue. Um I I don't know does that create an issue? What could what kind of issue? Yeah. Why would that issue

I guess as far as preparation for this meeting um because in the February meeting we defined the criteria being 80 dB at the property line. Um and advised that noise might be an issue and told the parties to come back in April addressing those points. And if they are addressing the points based on like he stated the assumption of 80 dB of property line, they might not have properly prepared for if the true criteria is 80 dB anywhere. Um

well, everyone just has to prepare for what's in the ordinance. And you're sure of what you just said, Sean? Yeah, it says um electronic amplified sound generated in conjunction with any event shall not be located within 100 ft of residentially zoned properties and not exceed 80 dB at any time. Okay.

Could could you could you put the site plan up so that we can see where this 100 foot area is? Somebody could Sean, you might have to point that out to us or or Bill or

Yeah. microphone.

Yes, Miss Clark. I' I'd defer to your recollection of any discussion, but the plain reading as Mr. Taylor was just giving uh is that the source cannot be any closer to a residence than 100 ft. And the sound cannot exceed 80 dB anywhere. Anywhere. So including at the source, right? Anywhere. So but you're talking about source of sound and the 100 foot buffer to the surrounding neighborhood. That's that's my reading of the

um and that's fine. And I was just pointing out um that if I don't want to jeopardize the uh I guess fairness of the hearing um if I I recall that the criteria was different in the last meeting. Um so that's it. Um, so can you repeat what the current criteria is for me and the rest of council

uh under section 30-1048 event center uh item G noise electronic amplified sound generated in conjunction with any event shall not be located within 100 ft of residentially zoned properties and not exceed 80 dB at any time. You said eight, you mean 80. 80. Yes. And that

I just want to clarify that this copy of the text amendment is in our packet today and it was in our packet in February and it's item G. And I think it was late and we may have gotten confused at certain points, but it's in it is in plain English in our packets. Yeah. And that's fine. I just I specifically recall because I I asked the question in last meeting where would that 80 decibels be measured that would be at the property loan.

Yeah. I'm not saying it should be either way. I'm just saying it happened. So I don't know if that'll present any issue. Mr. There was a a part of the meeting last time where I had to make a clarification where I aired and I had to a a person pointed that out to me in the audience and I made the correction and I think that was it is like the measurement is within not at the property line but it actually within the property itself if I'm remembering correctly because I wanted to make a clarification on that at that time. So looking at this uh site plan where it says amplified sound permitted everything from there and I'm assume that's north Mr. Greco going up that that is 80 dB at that point but south of that would not be 80 dB.

Is that true? Is that I mean I'm I don't know who I'm asking. Okay. I'm just saying that you can't have any amplified sound amplified sound set at 80 dB cannot go beyond that 100 ft. Right. So the expectation then is anything south of that line is I'm assuming is less correct. And with more buffering it would be even even less. Yes. Even further reduced. Okay.

Um, I have a question. Mr. Chang, were you uh I I believe you stated earlier um did you state earlier that your uh understanding when you were doing this analysis was that 80 dB was the limit at the property line?

It it was my understanding, but again, my testing is kind of independent. So all I was showing was where I placed the speaker was at 80 dB and at the property line obviously which is the further furthest spot away so to speak is at you know 40 dB. So um that was my understanding but my test is whatever the ordinance doesn't have anything to do with with what my test shows. It's just the science of here's where the speaker was at 80 dB. Here's where where the sound level is at the property line.

Okay. I mean, Mr. Thomas, could we ask the applicant if this affects I guess their preparation for the meeting or the expectation or anything? I just I don't know. I want to make sure what does the question go to specifically? Um because if if my understanding leaving the last meeting was at the property line as well as Mr. Shangs and I guess the applicant, whoever instructed you to do your analysis, if there was some misunderstanding, could we get clarification if that I just I don't want any issues to happen after this hearing. Um based on that, I'm glad to ask some questions to follow up on that concern. All right. Um Mr. Chang. Um,

regardless of whether the source has to be limited to 80 or more than 80 dB, does that affect the validity of your methodology that you used at the Um, and it is true, isn't it, that when you were at the site, you tested at 80 dB. Correct. That is correct. So, all of your testing was consistent with a venue that was operating at no more than 80 dB. Correct. So, so based on your expertise and experience, is it your opinion that the testing that you did is pertinent to this regardless of whether or not the 80 decel standard is at the source or at the property? That's right. Yeah, it it makes no difference.

Okay. Um, so, so, so that being the case, what was the fall-off that you observed from the source, your speaker, as it's depicted in your presentation, what was the the the uh decibel falloff from the source to the property line? How much did it fall off from 80 at the source to the property line? And again, this is uh based on that day with what was existing as far as uh trees, no fence, no shrubbery, which is what is in the plan. Uh that day there was a about a 40 decel, maybe a little bit less 39 decibel fall drop from the source to the property line. Correct. That's correct.

And certainly then it wouldn't have increased at the property line. That would violate the laws of physics. Correct. So, so, so are you able to point out on the site plan that's currently on the projector roughly where you placed the source? right there.

So, so it was within the allowable zone more than 100 ft from the property line. Yes. So, so in other words, what you modeled when you were on site was a set of circumstances that would be true for this facility operating in compliance with the ordinance. Correct. And and they showed noise of the property line of of of approximately 40 to 50 dB when you had 80 dB going inside the allowable zone. That's right.

Mr. Chain, couple questions here. Okay. Just based on that that line of questioning, if the amplified sound permitted line is what you you set the speaker facing out facing towards the northwest towards the towards the parking lot. Ah, okay. And you measured towards the southeast.

Southeast. Okay. Um, thank you for that clarification. So I work as a manufacturing engineer. 85 dB time weighted 12 hours. You have to wear hearing protection. Um so I also know that the height of the sound uh changes the the duration the linear duration of the sound. So you had your speaker on the ground. That's correct.

So elevated. Can you estimate in your professional opinion how much more it would project out that uh as an example the 61.4 four dB at 25 ft if it were elevated um 8 feet. Can you estimate what? Probably 10 dB. 10 to 12. An additional 10 to 12 dB. And um also and again manufacturing um you start up one piece of equipment that's 85 dB. Fine. You start up two that are both 85 dB. You don't get 85 dB.

Right? So, but the amplifier can be set so that combined it's going to be 80 80 dB. I understand. But our ordinance says that it will not exceed 80 dBs and we're talking about at the source, right? So, if you had two of them side by side, 80 dB each. We're we're talking higher. We don't I don't know what that higher is, but it's multiple speakers set at the same range. Sure. Absolutely. Okay. However, based on what they the my predecessor explained is they will have equipment pro that that's going to be provided. Yeah.

And if it's two speakers or 10 speakers, if the ordinance is 80 dB, it's 80 dB. We can set the gains on the amplifiers per channel and we can lower it down so that combined all 10 or all two will not exceed the 80 dB. Awesome. That's what I wanted to know. Thank you.

Also, another question. Um, I guess do you have experience with speakers and whatnot? Do you have experience assessing sound of uh crowds such as um 100 to 125 people in a tent per se? So, I don't have professional experience with it, but yes, my experience over the years, I can tell you that if you get 125 people together inside a tent that is covered, now the tent will contain some of that sound and it obviously sound's going to travel the path lease resistance. Okay. What was that?

I guess that may have been an objection, but indicated his his professional qualifications and experience in this area. Yeah. But he said not related to people. So I understand. Yeah. So I this is basically as an opinion. Um that's understood. Are you want me to finish or if your expertise isn't related to the sound of groups of people? Um then Okay. Yeah. Well, let's clarify that. Do you consider yourself better positioned than the average normal lay person to answer the question that was just asked to you?

Sure. Absolutely. the the applicant takes the position that this is with within the scope of the expert witness's competency and to the extent it may not be in his core competency, he's still competent to testify to it and that would go to the weight of the testimony, not the admissibility of the testimony.

Okay. So if you do get 125 people contained underneath a tent and they are having normal conversation, it will generate probably 60 to 70 dB outside the tent. It's not going to be something that's very hush hush, but it's not going to be something that's obnoxious. Now granted with 125 people, is there an opportunity for someone to get louder than normal conversation? Yes, that's I mean that's the obvious.

Okay. Let me ask you just to uh clarify this please. Mr. Chang, you referred to your summary a few times and is that is your summary is that what's presented on the last page of the slides? That's correct. I'm going to hand you a document that's been marked for identification purposes as uh applicants exhibit two and ask if you could just look through that and confirm that's a true and accurate copy of your slides that have been presented to the council tonight.

Most definitely. Yes. And that includes the summary on the final page. Yes. Thank you. Uh Mr. Mayor, at this point we'd move uh the document that's been designated as applicants exhibit two into evidence. It's this one. Yes. Okay.

Um uh Mr. Chang, just to wrap up, is there anything that we haven't covered in your testimony that you think is pertinent to the ability of this facility to operate in compliance with the uh applicable ordinance as it's been described here uh by the town of Oakidge tonight? I don't believe that there's anything hindering the applicant from falling within the compliancies of the the use of this gain controlled equipment. Is that a common thing in in the industry you work in?

So there are event spaces that do provide and require outside disc jockeyies, DJs, MC's or bands to plug into their equipment for the same purpose of why we're here today. It's just to make sure that they comply and do not uh go overboard or out of bounds. So, in your experience that that capability exists and it is

absolutely and I' I've set those up and there's actually a space and I I'll be honest with you, I don't remember the name, but there is a event space in Kernersville that I did the setup for and and we programmed it so that it would not exceed their parameters and so no one can go into that space, plug in and go beyond what is set. Were those parameters similar to what we're discussing tonight?

I'll be honest with you. I don't remember what the decibel level as far as difference it was. I do remember that we did measure from outside out to the extent of the property it was not able to exceed a certain decibel level. Um but that's what we basically set for that uh system. Okay. I have no further questions. Council, does council have any further questions? No. Thank you. Okay. Thank you,

Mr. Ch. Um, Mr. Mayor, if if there is no objection at this point, the applicant would like to present their final witness. Sure. Um, I'd like to call uh Mr. Brian Crowder to the stand, please.

Good evening, council. Yeah, that's what I was. Good evening, Mr. Crowner. Oh, yeah. He he kept it. Uh, good evening, sir. Please state your name for the record. Uh, Brian Crowder and my business address is 132 East Paris Avenue, High Point, North Carolina 27262. Mr. Crowder, what do you do for a living? I'm a real estate appraiser. How long have you done that for? If it's okay, I can just go through kind of my credentials real quick. Yeah, why don't you do that? Let's let's speed it up.

Yeah. So, um, my name is Brian Crowder. As I said, I'm a North Carolina state certified general appraiser with over 17 years of experience, all with Hilton Crowder and Associates. It's based in High Point, North Carolina. I began my appraisal career immediately upon graduating from North Carolina State University. Over the course of my career, I've appraised and consulted on a wide variety of property types including single family, residential, multif family, vacant land, commercial, industrial, office, institutional, and specialurpose properties including event spent among others. I hold both the MAI and SRRA designations from the appraisal institute which is the largest and most recognized professional appraisal organization in the world. These designations represent extensive education, testing, and experience requirements. To earn them, I completed a college degree, numerous advanced courses, each one week long, and concluded with a proctor exam, a 16-hour comprehensive examination divided into four 4-hour modules, more than 4,500 hours of specialized appraisal experience, including a detailed peer review of three randomly selected appraisals, and a demonstration of knowledge report similar to a thesis, requiring detailed analysis, full market support for every adjustment, and a formal grading and review process. The MAI and SR designations have long been recognized by courts of law, government agencies, financial institutions, and investors as a market excellence in real estate valuation and analysis, not just nationally, but worldwide. In addition to maintaining my state certification, I regularly attend continuing education and professional seminars to stay current on industry trends and standards. I've also served in leadership roles within the North Carolina chapter of the Appraisal Institute. I've been a regional representative, a member of the board of directors, and chair of the real estate valuation conference, which provides continuing education to appraisers all across North Carolina. I currently serve as an executive officer of the North Carolina chapter of Appraisal Institute as vice president this year and will serve as president-elect in 2027 and president in 2028. Most recently, I was appointed to serve on the board of

directors for the Appraisal Institute Education Relief Foundation, AIRF, to help guide its mission and outreach efforts. ARF is the charitable arm of the appraisal institute providing financial assistance to appraisers facing hardship such as natural disasters, medical emergencies, or other unforeseen personal crises while also supporting education, research, and scholarships within the profession, not just nationally, but all over the world. I was also honored to be recognized by the Tribe Business Journal's 2024 class of 40 leaders under 40 and was also the recipient of the North Carolina Chapter of the Appraisal Institute Innovator Award for 2025. Thank you, Mr. Crowder. Uh, are you familiar with the U property at issue an expert?

Uh, I'm getting there. Yes. Are you familiar with the property at issue in this case? Yes, sir. Uh, have you undertaken to study the potential for the operation of the event center to affect neighboring properties? I have. Okay. And have you formed professional opinions about that based on your experience and training? I have. Okay. At this point, Mr. Mayor, we would tender Mr. Crowder is an expert in appraisal of real estate and specifically the potential impact of this uh facility on adjacent properties. Okay, continue.

All right. Uh Mr. Crowder, uh now that you've been accepted as an expert before the council, could you please uh summarize the work that you undertook uh to um u uh render to to come to a conclusion as far as the potential impact of this facility on neighboring properties? Yes, I was asked to complete a market impact study for the proposed Oak Benas Event Center. Uh this is not an appraisal. Um I was not asked to determine a specific market value for any property. Instead was this was a consulting assignment to evaluate whether the proposed Oakben Estates Event Center, if completed as proposed, will substantially injure the value of adjoining or abing land and if it will be in harmony with the area in which is to be located. To reach these conclusions, I applied methodologies that are consistent with the regulations of the appraisal standards board and conform to the uniform standards of professional appraisal practice commonly referred to as USPAP. Uh these are the same standards that are relied upon by every financial institution and recognized by state and federal courts throughout the country. Uh they are updated every two years to reflect best practices in valuation and analysis. Um using these standards, I performed analyses consistent with accepted appraisal techniques. Specifically, in this case, I use paired sales analysis. So, for each comparable event center or other external factor, I identified other nearby properties that had recently sold and compared them to similar properties within the same market area, but far enough away to avoid any influence from the event center or other external factor. Um, in ex in appraisal terminology, a negative external influence that could diminish property value is called external obsolescence. It's a form of depreciation called by oxide factors such as traffic, odor, noise, environmental conditions or visual impact. So that's pretty much the technology I use or the

techniques I use. So So um not being an appraiser myself, I just want to make sure this is clear. You looked at other similar event facilities in the Triad and looked at property, residential properties that transacted near those event centers to see if they sold for less than comparable properties that weren't near event centers. That is correct. Okay. And and um how many different event centers and neighboring properties did you look at in connection with this work? So event centers four.

Okay. Was it were there others besides event centers? There are only so many event centers in the Triad and only so many that also had a property that transacted nearby. You could have a hundred event centers, but in the past few years, you might only have one event center that had a property nearby that sold. So, I was limited to finding properties that had recently sold near those event centers. So, I used four of those and then four other properties that probably had similar external factors. Sure. Uh based on that work, did you prepare a report? I did. Okay. I'm going to hand you a document that's been marked for identification purposes as applicants exhibit number three and ask

that is the copy of my report. That is this report? Yes, sir. Yes. Except the color photo. Yeah. Okay. Can I ask a question or not yet? might wish for council to finish his initial examination and hold your question till then. Uh all right. So Mr. uh Mr. Crowder, you've you've agreed with that this is copy of your report that uh details the work that you just described and presents your findings. Correct. That is correct.

Um Mr. Mayor would like to move the the uh document identified as applicants exhibit 3 into evidence, please. Agreed. Okay. Uh, Mr. Crowder, could you uh proceed to detail your findings using that methodology that you just described as summarized in your report?

Um, sure. So, um, because residential properties tend to sell more frequently and are generally more sensitive to external factors than commercial or industrial properties. My analysis focused on residential properties. Uh within my study, like we talked about, includes four paired sales analysis of event centers and four paired sales analysis of other community gathering locations such as schools, athletic fields, facilities, things like that. Um the data clearly shows how buyers and investors actually spend their money in the marketplace and that properties adjoining or abuing event centers similar to the subject property. not event centers overall but event centers that would have to adhere to these standards that we talked about that I was given um to the subject property or other external factors similar to subject based on the market impact study are not measurably impacted in terms of market value these findings are consistent with my experience and numerous appraisals I've competed I've completed near similar external factors um so based on the objective data analyzed it is my professional opinion that the proposed Oakben Estates Event Center in accordance with the rules and restrictions it must follow will not substantially injure the value of adjoining or abunding properties.

Mr. Crowder, did you go beyond the data, the mere data, and speak with profate professionals involved with these properties?

That is correct. It is important when I'm doing my analysis to not just look at an MLS sheet and to see what the value sold for. So on each comparable paired sales analysis that I used, I spoke to a broker involved in the transaction, whether it be the listing broker, excuse me, or the selling broker and asked them specifically, did this property being sold, being located nearby this event center or other external factor, did it impact the value of that property that sold in the buyers or sellers opinion? And then I also spoke can't remember exactly many but a number of other brokers and told them about this specific visit center the restrictions it must follow and asked them specifically if they had a client a buyer how would this impact their view and how would they advise their client on it

real quick would that be considered hearsay Mr. Thomas or no market well sorry him discussing with a real estate agent I I'll give applicant's position applicant's position is that experts are allowed to rely on hearsay under the North Carolina rules I have testified to where market participant interviews are a very good indication of market behavior and I've used that in courts many times that have been advised there's a difference in talking to one person or a neighbor where that's why I called multiple people not just one person so you're talking to multiple people to get to reach my own conclusion based on that data.

The expert is allowed to and is expected to rely in at times on information that is commonly used by other experts in the field. It does as council indicated eventually uh basically go to weight of evidence as you treat it as you choose to treat it. Okay. Just want to make sure. All right. Um so so Mr. Crowder, you've testified that based on the research you conducted as outlined in your report, your professional opinion is that this event center, if operated in compliance with the special use permit and the town of Oakidge's ordinance, would not negatively impact the nearby residential properties. Correct.

Yes. My report was it would not substantially impact, but my findings actually showed that it would not impact. So, it went beyond just not substantially. Okay. Be beyond that, does your uh research touch on the issue of whether this use would be in harmony with the properties around it? It does. Can you explain that please?

Yes. So when it when we talk about harmony in the area, um we're really asking whether a use fits the existing pattern of development visually, functionally, and in terms of community activity without creating disruption. Um, so first visual compatibility. From a visual standpoint, the property will continue to appear as that residence that's already on site except for it's being renovated, not replaced. So, the review from this road remains consistent with the current character of driving by that road. The second's functional compatibility. Um, in terms of how the property is used, um, small-scale gatherings such as weddings are very similar in nature to events already occurring nearby. Within a few blocks, there are several religious facilities that rather regularly hold gatherings, weddings, receptions, meetings, community events, and these are functionally comparable activities in terms of traffic patterns, duration, and intensity. Um, so when we look at both the physical appearance and the type of activity, the proposed use aligns with the established pattern of the area rather than deviating from it. Um, this proposal isn't introducing a new or incompatible use. It's continuing a pattern of community oriented gathering spaces that already exist in the immediate area. Um, because the structure remains residential in appearance and the activities are comparable to nearby institutional uses, the proposal does not create a visual or functional conflict with surrounding properties. by nearby institutional uses. Is that a fancy churches or

a religious facility? Okay. Yes. And how nearby? I just want There's one right across the street. There's two more within probably two blocks. Um so for those reasons, it is my professional opinion that the proposed wedding venue is compatible with and in harmony with the existing character of the area. Uh is there anything that you would like to say that you haven't been asked about so far? No, sir. Okay. Uh, I have no further questions at this time for Mr. Crowder. Grayson, my question's been answered.

I guess a quick question then, um, that I did note. So, you talked to, uh, realators about, um, affecting, you know, buying and selling, whatnot. Um, and then you had mentioned that you looked at, uh, properties that have sold, um, that hadn't been a different uh, value versus, you know, comparable ones further away. Did you look at any houses that may have not sold? Like perhaps a house being nearby an event center maybe listed for sale but didn't sell because of that potentially. Just hypothetical situation.

Well, it's difficult to ascertain whether a property was listed and then expired three years ago if it's not currently listed on the market. You can search for properties that are currently listed, but how do you determine exactly which one was listed? I know that's why I called a broker involved in each sale and said, "Hey, did this impact the sale of that property or not being nearby it?"

So, did you talk to brokers about um properties nearby similar event centers saying, "Hey, have they tried to sell or I guess is there a way to look up, you know, I know I can see if I look at a certain property if it has been listed for sale in the past and then, you know, unlisted." So if you in my report, if you look, there is a brief summary of every conversation I had with each broker. It wasn't just I talked to XYZ. It's I talked to this person, this is what they said. I talked to this person, this is what they said. And their opinions differed. Um some of them said, oh, it's probably a wash because one benefit versus that. Some people thought it was a benefit. So it really just depended on the person. And I took a combination of everyone's opinions to determine what my opinion of the market value is. So I when I'm doing these reports, I don't I don't look at it what I think. It's my opinion of the market data. What does the data show? That's what my report findings are based on.

So this is the information. And I thought this was very interesting on pages 63 and 64 where um the brokers spoke about the impact and I assume you faithfully recorded from what you're saying what they said in order to draw your to to come to these conclusions. By faithfully what? Uh faith faithfully recorded. I did not record them like take audio but yet summarized I've been doing this a long time. I'm not going to jeopardize my license and my career to put something in a report. I found it very interesting and you might find it helpful. Councilwoman Clark.

Um I'm going to rattle through questions very quickly. I've been conscious not to ask a bunch of questions unless I didn't hear the answer someplace else. Um, looking at your appraisals of the comparable sales number one, two through seven. Um, number one, there's a sale on Greenale Court in Somerfield. It's across the street or it's it's located adjacent to uh Somefield Farms. How close is that house to Somerfield Farms? So, if you look at every single one, I actually measure in feet how far each one is. Where would I find that?

It should be on the page that shows like the very first page where it shows a picture of whatever residential house was. It shows exactly how many feet it is from the bordering property. Uh, from the property, yes. How far is it from the event center? I'm looking at it from the actual like like the property line. Okay. How far is it from the event center? I don't know the answer to that unless I measure that. So you wouldn't know that answer on any of these? No. Okay. Thank you.

Yeah. I guess real quick. I mean this is large. Where is the general summary of what the comparables are? General summary start on 63. Oh, you talking about what the what the broker said or you talking about what each comparable sale?

The comparable sales. Um, the first one starts on page 23 and it runs through 62 for comp sales. You have to look at um page 24. You have to look at page 29, 34. 39. Mr. Stone, are you just

I'm sorry. Page number talking to myself, but I know there's a lot of people here. Sorry about that. Um, let's see here. Um, page 44 and 49 54 and 59.

I guess sorry, probably a better question is where's the list of similar event centers so we make sure we're comparing. So each one each each comparable sale so the beginning so I've not page 23 that's the comparable sale of that one is a property that's sold nearfield farms and then my next one on page two that's a house that's sold nearby Bella Kalina Mansion which is another event center that's page 28 I believe is that right

correct and then it just goes in or so I'm doing an analysis of each paired sale fully then going on to the next one then going on to the next So the first four event centers, the next four other similar external venues there any more questions from council? Mr. Stone, I just got a quick question pertaining to Mr. Stones. So you're given these distances. So, we the event center would be further away than the distances you've got here, right?

It depends on each individual one. Um, you're not you're never going to find in the marketplace something that is exactly the same amount of feet away. I thought you were measuring from uh property line to property line. Correct. So, I mean, he's doing it to the property line of the event center. I think what they were saying is that they they're considering the place where people gather the building like at Somefield Farms where the the noise and the music takes place, but they're doing he did it to the property line.

Now at Somerfield Farm sometimes activities I've been to a couple weddings there happen out on the grassy areas as well, but the amp amplified music is usually in that barn facility. So, he didn't do it to the barn facility. He did it to the property line. But I think that's appropriate because that's where the decibel rules apply is at the property line. I mean, if I was looking at it, I would think it would be that would be further away than the 1300 ft. Maybe it's 1500. Somefield farms on a lot of acreage. It depends on the specific event center. There's some event centers that are a lot smaller in acreage that might be half an acre and the property lines where the house. It just depends.

Yeah. Well, and I guess a quick question. So, it sounds like there's no really perfect comparable event center and you know, exact same scenario like you said. So, how do you go about appraising a property? Like basically, if you had to do an appraisal of a property directly adjacent to the space in question, how would you determine analysis? And that's why in mine I had four. But if there are no comparable sales, if you could say, you know, honestly, there's nothing that really compares.

So I found some and then that's why I used four others that in my opinion were had the potential to have a much greater impact than the proposed venue as it like for instance one of them was ACman Stadium in High Point that holds football games that has could produce way more people, sound, noise, traffic, etc. than our proposed than the this proposed venue. That's why I used other paired sales that would have a potential for a greater impact. That's very helpful. What were So, you did Summerfield Farms, the property, the stadium you just referenced. And what are the other two?

Okay, so Summerfield Farms was the first one. The other one was Bellacina Mansion that I mentioned, right? In Stokesdale. Mhm. The other one was the Long House Event Venue which is also in Stoale. The other one is called the Pin House Wedding and Event Center in Reedsville. So there are five. No, no, that was four event centers. Oh, that was four. Okay. Sorry, ma'am. No, you're fine. But you also looked at at Stadium and

So the other then the other four I used, like I mentioned, I did AJ Simeon Stadium and High Point. Then I studied uh Westland Christian Academy which has soccer fields just outside a house that sold right across street where they hold soccer games and things like that and playgrounds and school traffic. And that's in High Point.

That's in High Point as well. And then the other one I used was uh the North Phillips Park Soccer Complex that they just uh it's a soccer venue that holds games on weekends such as that, but they just redeveloped it with uh Carolina Core Professional Soccer Team where they host uh their training facility. And then the last one was um right nearby Greensburg Day School and their athletic fields in Greensboro obviously. Okay. Thank you.

Just real quick on redirect. It this appraisal you followed standard techniques, right? Absolutely. Didn't do anything out of the ordinary. Sure. This if a bank came to you and asked you for your opinion on this, you would have done it exactly the same way. If a neighboring property owner came and asked you to do it, you would have done it exactly the same way. Well, I can even speak to how I got contacted. Um, when he asked me to do it, I said, I I can certainly do this, but I at first charge I can't do anything based on contingency by law. So, I charge an initial, hey, I'm going to keep track of my time. If I can't help you, I can't help you. I'm going to charge you for my time. That's it. I will only follow. And so, I'm even agree to my findings until I actually pulled the data and had it.

So, what you're saying is there's no pre-ordained conclusion. Absolutely not. That would be contrary to your I'll lose my license if I did that. Thank you.

Any further questions from council? Mr. Stone. Um, we've probably been at this for a couple a couple hours. If you look at the full duration, we'll be entering the seventh hour of this special. Uh, and I know that some of us here would like to take at least a fivem minute break. Um, so I looking I let me ask you, Mr. Mayor, uh, and council, do you have further evidence? Uh,

uh, no, I have no further evidence or witnesses to present. And may the witnesses uh tendered by the applicant so far, may they be released or do you want them to remain? Does this council anticipate any further need for those witnesses? I would ask them to stay for a little longer if that's all right. Thank you. Um my phone says 91 17. Can we agree to be back and off running again at 9:25? That's about seven, eight minutes. Is that all right?

How long?

About seven or eight. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat.

Heat. Hey. Hey. Hey. Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. N. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Hey. Hey. Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat. Could we come back to order? Thank you. Um at the end of that last uh session we were asked by I don't see her the lady who's

already was standing the lady that Adra Loftess Miss Loftess if she could crossexamine I'm going to refer to Mr. Thomas on that but um as I understand it but you'll clarify she can present new evidence and she can ask questions I think to council then we can decide whether we answer this questions but you can't as often as you can I'm sorry miss Mr. Thomas would explain you will not be able to cross-examine. So would you take uh take the lead now?

Sure may. At this point the uh evidentary hearing uh is open to other persons who uh propose to introduce relevant material and substantial evidence which may help the council decide the two uh standards or criteria that are at issue with this continued hearing tonight. Uh the only formal party in this proceeding is the applicant. There's been no other person recognized as uh a party by standing or uh by intervention. And therefore while uh again there is available to citizens the right to put on evidence uh for the purpose I indicated uh there is no other person at this time with a right to uh cross-examine or object or make legal arguments. So you can't hear evidence as I said for the remainder of the evidentiary hearing.

Okay. So that being the case, do you wish to pre present any additional evidence that you haven't already presented?

Okay, come forward. Good evening again, members of the town council. My name is Fedra Loftess and I live at 6619 Stonecraftoft Drive, Ashton Park neighborhood. My neighborhood borders the property at 2425 Oakidge Road and my home shares a property line with it. When we last met on February 5th, you voted and found that the special use permit failed to be in harmony with its surroundings. Tonight, I'm going to focus on the harmony issue and ask you to uphold the vote from the February 5th meeting.

Miss Loftess, can I Yes, sir. Can I interrupt for just a second? Absolutely. Um council at this point we are discussing number four which is the uh the use will not substantially injure the value of adjoining or abudding properties. Um is it appropriate or advisable at this time Mr. Thomas perhaps to be talking about number five which is the um development being in harmony with the I'm just looking for some direction here. We've been discussing harmony and property values throughout. Yeah. I mean, many of the previous expert uh witnesses touched on harmony.

Uh then are you are you asking if she has additional evidence related to number four? No. Or what my assumption was is that we were only dealing with item number four and then we would move to item number five. If all the evidence is going to be presented and then council is going to discuss four and five afterwards, I'm fine with that. I just need to understand which way we're going. That's the way we're going. And when all the evidence is in, then we discuss four and then we discuss five and refer back to whatever relevant testimony we've heard.

That's correct. And uh it would be appropriate if you could ask any witness starting with Miss Loftess if they had evidence specifically as to the fourth criterion. Uh the uh and then substantially try to organize each witness to present as to that one and then to the fifth. Uh that would be appropriate if if the witness wishes to do that. Okay. So, we'll just move forward. I apologize for the interruption.

No, that's fine. The special use permit before you proposes to transform a 3acre residential property in the neighborhood into an event center for gatherings of up to 150 people. The property is bordered by public roads on two sides. However, five Ashton Park homes share direct property lines with it. Those are the only properties that touch the proposed sites borders besides roads. Every other parcel in the Ashton Park neighborhood that 2524 Oakidge Road is nestled in is occupied by a single family home. In fact, the property itself has always been designated as a residence from its construction in 1908 until its sale in 2024. The issue before you isn't whether the application meets procedural requirements or contains the correct documentation. That means it is compliant. However, in addition to compliance with the town's requirements for a special use permit, the property use must also be found to be in harmony with the neighborhood's character. An application can be compliant and still not be in harmony with the surrounding community. North Carolina law draws this important distinction. Compliance is about meeting the technical submission standards. Harmony, as precedent defines, concerns whether the proposed use aligns with the character and scale of the existing neighborhood. Furthermore, the special use permit is for the usage of the building. If it looks like a house but isn't used as one, then it's irrelevant to the issue issuance of the permit, even if it's a historic house. The application before you seeks to establish an event center capable of hosting gatherings of 150 persons on this 3acre parcel. While the application may satisfy procedural completeness requirements, Harmony concerns compatibility of scale, intensity, and impact with surrounding land uses, not merely whether forms are filled correctly.

An event center hosting large gatherings brings with it different traffic volumes than we have now. amplified noise, lights, and weekend and especially evening activity. Changes that would fundamentally alter the quiet, low traffic environment of Ashton Park. Even well-managed events would increase vehicle movement on roads that were designed for local residential use, not commercial traffic, and be out of character with the decades of precedent as to the character of what the Ashton Park neighborhood is. I'm going to take a few moments. This isn't very long. We're over halfway. I'm going to take a few moments to describe Ashton Park and its character given what I have observed at my home personally since moving to the neighborhood in 2020. Ashton Park is a quiet community of 23 single family homes situated on parcels from 1 to about 3 acres. The homes here were built between 1988 and 2012, given the exception of 2524, forming a wellestablished peaceful residential area, and each one is used as a residence for a family or couple. Our streets are calm with children playing safely in yards and along the roads late into summer evenings. It's so calm. Have water. Sorry, I forgot to bring my I have a water bottle. I just forgot to bring it. Um, that's okay. It's so calm that they can safely cross yards and our roads to their friends houses even though we don't have sidewalks. Traffic is light. It's not uncommon for me to see one car an hour during the day and that drops off rapidly after 5:00 p.m. When I go on evening walks, which I do several times a week, I go to the end of my street and back, and most evenings I don't see any cars, and the ones that I do see overwhelmingly tend to be neighbors. At

most, I may see two to three. When sitting on my back porch, most of what I hear are the sounds of birds, kids playing, tree frogs, and insects. Our neighborhood is a quiet and peaceful one. When it comes to large events, the biggest events I've seen are an indoor Christmas party held by a neighbor with about 15 people. The only concerts I've heard are occasional drifts from the Oakidge Town Park festivals on the other side of town. I've never heard a concert, DJ, or loud party in my neighborhood. Occasionally, some of the homes with older kids have had a few extra cars and driveways when guests are over, but I have never heard sound coming from the residences due to that. The only loud sounds I've heard after 10 p.m. was when I had windows open to enjoy the summer air in 2020, about a month after we moved in. And over the sound of frogs, I learned how terrifying the mating call of foxes can be. My back porch is a refuge and my favorite place to read. The piece of how calm and private it is is a reminder of the peaceful and quiet family atmosphere that brought me to Oakidge in the first place to have a safe place to raise my kids. I'm taking a risk here putting this on the public record. My husband is gone several weeks a month due to work every month. And having a safe and isolated place to raise them while he's gone is part of why we moved from the urban town center we left in Virginia. This is the environment that drew my family here, a place of safety, family life, and peace. In our last hearing on February 5th, I asked the applicant for reasonable concessions that might bring the project more in line with the neighborhood, limiting the capacity, reducing hours of operation on week nights, especially school nights, or restricting amplified outdoor music or tempo of events. The clear answers at that time were an unequivocal no.

I have since then had a very pleasant discussion with his event planner and she made several of the statements that were made this evening which sounded like improvements over what I'd heard before. But we were told that the only restrictions that they would hold themselves to were the ones that were written into the town ordinances. So, anything that was stated tonight, unless it has been written into the town ordinances or offered to be written into them, is just words that are uninforceable. To date, I have not seen evidence in the public record that any such measures have been formally incorporated into a revised submission. I respect the applicant's right to pursue a business use, but it must meet the standards that protect long-standing existing neighborhoods, especially the requirement of harmony. While the applicant has their rights, I, as a resident in a residential area, also have a right to enjoy the standards of quiet and peace that our neighborhood has established over decades. our community who I've spoken with and I specifically ask that you uphold that standard of harmony and recognize that this proposal with its small site and potential for loud evening sounds does not belong in the middle of a residential family oriented setting. I respectfully ask the board to recognize that compliance with filing requirements does not equate to harmony with the neighborhood. The existing residential character of Ashton Park and the expectations of those who live here, despite the applicant's plans, must be weighed against the statutory requirement that special use permits harmonize with their surroundings. At the end of the last hearing, the town council voted and found that the application was not in harmony and I ask you to uphold that finding today. Thank you for your consideration and your time.

Thank you. Do I wait for questions? Council, do you have crossexamination?

Um, maybe just real brief. Miss Loftess, how is it that vehicles accessing the event center would be driving through your neighborhood? Is there any access into your neighborhood from the proposed event center? Um, when schools let out, uh, which are located about two miles away, regularly, traffic cuts through my neighborhood to avoid the intersection at Bunch Road. And given that you're asking me to speculate, which I wouldn't normally do, it seems that those patterns may be repeatable in this case. Uh, I just wanted to confirm that there's no access to your neighborhood streets from the event center.

The two neighborhood streets that touch my neighborhood are accessed by the exact same two streets that the event center touches. Oak wasn't my question. it. My question to you is, does the event center itself exit or have uh an entrance off of your neighborhood street or is the only access into the event center off of the single street that it fronts on? Currently, it has an access less than 100 ft away from my neighborhood street. That's fine. I have no further questions.

Um, council, have any questions? Um, yeah. I guess I have a question. Do you uh have any evidence related to point number four or is it just point number five? I don't expert testimony or anything.

I will say I um I reached out to over 25 different experts, um appraisal firms, traffic engineers, sound engineers, real estate agents. Um, I was told that they did not want to take my case because it would cost me $10,000 plus dollars. And I was told several times that the burden of proof wasn't on me as a resident and they weren't comfortable performing those types of studies for a resident because that's not the capacity that they are asked to do that role in. And so I decided I would testify on my own behalf as an expert for where I live and what my experiences is experiences 24 hours a day. Okay. I guess I did have a question about your um earlier statements. You said that you spoke with the event coordinator. Yes.

Um and based on that discussion, I guess it was more agreeable the terms that she discussed. Could you elaborate on that? I guess so. I guess the question is I'll kind of cut at the chase. Did you discuss terms that in your opinion as a affected, you know, adjacent property owner would be in harmony with the surrounding area or is it just, you know, your perspective or uh testimony that no event center at all would be in harmony? Well, I feel that no event center that has the same size of plot as our homes does and has much larger crowds than any home that I've ever seen our neighborhood have. I feel that that's just inherently out of harmony. But I will say that she was very pleasant in the conversation and she answered a lot of things that we just didn't have access to. But she brought the same things up tonight. Um, but I'll say I still have concerns because until it's written into ordinance, there's nothing to hold it. And even the contracts that they brought, they said that those are fluid and non-binding right now. And so, you know, so there's again, I just feel inherently the usage is not in harmony with the neighborhood. There's no other precedent of there being an event center or any type of business inside our neighborhood that would draw crowds. Okay. Yeah. I just wanted clarification because, you know, part of the special use permit is that if we thought there were a scenario where we could apply certain conditions to make it in harmony, then we could apply those conditions with the permit. Um, so I just want to kind of get clarification what you're

Yeah. I mean, there are definitely things that, you know, for example, if she's worried that they can't have business hours, that they'd have to make their facility available 24 hours a day to not be accused of discrimination, the town could put limits on evening events during the week in the form of an ordinance. And if you say that that has nothing to do with race or religion, that's a that's a flat rule for everyone, that might alleviate that, you know, and so there are things that could certainly make it more stringent. Um, but it doesn't change the fact that I still feel like that would and my neighbors may raise their hands if they think that it's inherently out of harmony who have come here tonight again. Even after our marathon last time, they've showed up again. Um, and so we have a quality and standard of life that never included foreseeing this type of place in our neighborhood and that's why we chose it.

I have a question. You you said that some things were improvements and I assumed you meant that the change in hours and you said they were just words though tonight. The change in hours from 11 p.m. back to 900 p.m. is definitely an improvement I would think from your That's written into the ordinance. And well, it would it would be written into the special use permit if council asked if if council placed it as a condition. Yes. So if that happened, that's an improvement. It sounds like that's better than the alternative,

right? Um, another improvement would be to codify that sound, any type of sound is going to cease, you know, over 80 dB, whether crowd or not. Um, make sure that that's clarified. Um, you know, there are definitely improvements that could be made, but I still stand by. I have a question statements. So, would you agree for seven days a week with the nine o'clock or would you want it change? I mean, so you would agree to nine o'clock every night. I'm I'm asking I'm not the only one. I'm asking a question because you said it was a lot better.

That's better than 11 o'clock every night. Certainly. So, if you got that in writing, I'm just I'm asking questions. This is what we're here to do. Yeah. So, I think she was clarifying. That's what I was kind of asking. Like generally as an adjacent property owner, her belief is that it's not in harmony just inherently with its use as an event center because of the capacity and you know the kind of events they would have. But I believe you were saying that um if push comes to shove, you know, it's an improvement, but I guess you still wouldn't consider that in harmony is what you're saying. That's right. Yeah.

Okay. No more questions. Any other questions from the council?

I'm questions. Um, I think you it's an it does say in the ordinance electronic amplified sound generated shall can't exceed the 80 dB and you're saying you wish that would apply to all noise. It it's hard to imagine people speak unless everybody was yelling constantly at the same time at the property line. I I don't see how human sound could exceed 80. I disagree with that. Um I can hear conversations from workers. I've called on ma'am.

I can currently hear one-on-one discussions that come from people working on that house. And if you amplify that by 50 times, you know, we had a sound engineer that did testify tonight that if you have multiple sources of sound, it does increase. And so if you have more than one conversation and you can hear the conversation now, and then it's building with however many speakers, if you have x amount of speakers given the testimony that we heard tonight, well, he said that 125 people under a tent would be around 60 dB. He also admitted that he wasn't an expert in that area when we first asked him about that. Well, he's more of an expert. Well,

then than than I am is what I was going to say. I wasn't talking about you, but I'm avoiding inferring. He he did say that he's got more expertise than normal people. And so I Is that enough to hang our hat on though when it's such a crucial part?

I guess that's what we are here to determine. He is a sound specialist, but Uh Mr. Mayor, the uh the criteria that have been cited in the ordinance for this special use and for instance the sound limitation with electronically uh generated sound is a minimum for issuance of the SUP. Clearly, if there was a concern with additional noise levels, that could be addressed through the additional conditions option that the council has if it chooses to grant the SUV. Uh, any other questions from council? Yes, sir.

No. Any recross? Uh, Mr. Brown, just miss office, I want to confirm. So, you are not a licensed North Carolina attorney, correct? Correct. What what is the basis for you telling the council that they can't enforce an ordinance that would uh prohibit events after certain hours? That's right. Since I'm here under my own counsel and I am not informed, I would say that's true. That would be up to an appeal court on whether that'd be valid or not. So, don't take it as legal advice from me. I'm just trying to point out logic. Okay. No further questions.

Okay. and we'll uh conclude this part of the hearing. Oh, are there other people? Excuse me. I'm getting council's correction. I could recognize the gentleman uh standing up. Can you explain? You can ask if anyone else uh wants to present relevant material and substantial evidence. to swear them in. Mr. Thomas. Yes. Other Yes. Anybody who hasn't been sworn in previously needs have to be sworn. Okay. We need people. Should we anyone who wants to speak come forward to be sworn?

That would be the efficient thing. Any remaining uh uh proposed witnesses should be get themselves sworn in.

Yeah, there three Sandra Whoever was going to speak, uh, please come forward. Tell us who you are and where you live. Good evening, council members. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. My name is Karen Pikford and I've lived at 7785 New Haven Drive for nearly 17 years about a third of a mile from the property in question. Closer still as the crow flies. I also serve as HOA president of Oakidge Lake, a 113 home highvalue community adjacent to, though not directly abudding, this property. Importantly, the most likely overflow parking area for this proposed event center is Stonecraftoft Drive, which is within our neighborhood. Notably, neither the property owners nor their representatives contacted our HOA board or our residents about this proposal. While I don't have an engineering degree, I do have a law degree and

license. I'm inactive with the bar. I'm a retired FBI agent and have significant experience advising officials at the highest level of the federal government. Our HOA board has a duty to preserve and enhance property values. We do not oppose improving or even repurposing this property, but we do have serious concerns about its use as an event center as proposed. First, parking. The ordinance requires one space per four guests, but expecting 150 guests to arrive in 38 cars is simply unrealistic. People here do not carpool, and they are unlikely to park remotely and shuttle in, especially if they're running late. The predictable result is overflow parking on nearby residential streets. Second, noise. Sound carries in this area. When our neighborhood used to hold certain yearly events at our neighborhood pool, I could hear them clearly from my home at less of a distance than this proposed venue. Yet the applicants are requesting limited very limited restriction on outdoor noise beyond minimal kind uh time constraints and they say they will stay within 80 dB. Third, traffic. Our neighborhood already experiences cutth through traffic from drivers avoiding the stop sign at Highway 50 and Bunch Road. Event-related traffic, especially concentrated arrival and

departure times, will significantly worsen these conditions. Existing nearby businesses do not create this issue because they operate on a one or two customer at a time basis. The uh assertion by Mr. Crowder earlier that churches, there's a church across the street and churches two blocks away is not correct. You can look at a map and see that that is not true. Besides that, the act type of activity at a church is completely different than this would be and also less frequent than this could be. Their representatives have said that events were historically held at this property. Even if that was true, that context no longer exists. Surrounding homes did not exist then. Traffic volumes were far lower and those events were unlikely to approach the frequency or scale now proposed. This also raises a broader concern, precedent. There are many large homes on acreage and Oakidge. Approving this use makes it much harder to deny similar future requests within residential areas. There's a fundamental difference between buying a home near an established event venue and having one introduced later when uh after you bought your home. But none of these homeowners expected this when they bought their homes. You'd be sacrificing the quiet enjoyment of and and value in all of the surroundings homeowners homes for the profit of the owners of this one property. This event center will affect the value of the

abuing abudding properties which will have a ripple effect on every home in my neighborhood. In effect, this proposal places a highfrequency event venue into the middle of a quiet residential area, impacting noise, traffic, and parking while benefiting a single property owner at the expense of many others. I have a few points about the people who testified earlier, what they said. Um, they said that they have talked to the school about the off-site parking and using their parking. Well, my kids all went to that school and I can tell you they have their own events almost well quite frequently. Uh, uh, the Oakidge Youth Association uses their parking. My kids play basketball there in the evenings. Um, I'm not sure, you know, how often there's going to be fully available parking at that school. So, that's a big assumption that they're making. I agree with the previous speaker who said that all the things that they said would be in their contracts can be changed. It has to be written in as a condition of their permit or there's no guarantee they're going to stick to it. and also them saying that a couple who is getting married has to sign this contract, has to agree to all these things, whether it's security or noise level or that. I can tell you, and I'm sure you've all been to weddings, what the happy couple signs and what the guests know about, that's two different

things. And the happy couple is not going to be going around making sure that their 150 guests follow the rules on the day of their wedding. So, it can be in the contract all day long and it's not going to prevent the things that we're concerned about. I also noted that the first lady who spoke is Miss Hines, I believe,

uh, mentioned she seemed to grasp the concern of security because she stressed that she would be there walking around with people who were touring the property and like really understood that, you know, you might be concerned about the security of the homeowners all around the event center, but yet they're asking for 150 strangers to come there and nobody's going to be watching 150 strangers at all times and making sure they're not coming into our neighborhood. So, it's interesting that she realizes the importance to us and the concern about security, but doesn't see that dichotomy there that it doesn't make sense. At a minimum, we ask that you require a significantly lower allowed capacity or substantially somehow increased on-site parking to avoid the overflow from ending up in our neighborhood. and that you significantly strengthen the noise restrictions to protect the quiet enjoyment of the surrounding homeowner's property and put all of that all of those restrictions in the permit please. Thank you for your time and consideration.

Thank you. Is there anyone else? Excuse me. Just a moment. Uh, ma'am, first, do you have any cross real quick? You don't mind, ma'am? Um, Miss Pigford, I think I got this right. You live at 7785 New is it New Haven Drive? Did I get correct? Um, and and you testified you're concerned about the ripple effects from the resoning. Is that that was your words, right? Um, I don't think a resoning is on the table. Sorry. The the special use permit, the the event center. Yes. on the property values. So, okay. So, we're talking about property values now. I know you mentioned you have an inactive law license. Do you have an appraisal license? Nope.

Are you a real estate broker? I have common sense. I I I appreciate that. Are you a real estate broker? Nope. I have common sense. In what way would this event center have a direct effect on your property at 77? Well, I can tell you that you hired the appraiser and I know how expert witnesses go because I have spent a lot of time a lot of time in courtrooms. So, I can tell you and the other side does not have expert witnesses. However, we could have many expert witnesses, but that's not how this works out.

I'm not asking. So, the fact that we're only relying on your expert witnesses is not advisable and and and not practical. I'm not asking you to rely on them and I'm not asking about any experts. I'm asking about you as the property owner with respect to 7785 New Haven Drive. What direct impact do you believe this facility would have on your property? It will lower my property value. You can't tell me that it won't. You can put other than that other than your belief about appraisers that you've hired up here and that will not change that.

Other than your belief about that, can you identify any other particularized direct impact the event center would have on your property at 778? I will be able to hear it from my house. So that will have an effect on it as well. What is your basis for believing that you'll be able to hear it at your property? I, as I mentioned earlier, we have a pool in my neighborhood. Have you driven through my neighborhood? I'm sorry. Um, I'm not the one on the stand right now. That's not relevant. Well, it is because you're asking me and I already said I already answered that question.

And you're not allowed to ask questions is to respond to his questions at this point. My, as I mentioned earlier, we have a pool in our neighborhood. We used to occasionally once a year have a Halloween party there, for example. I could hear the voices and the kids, you know, having fun and that sort from that. And it's a third of of a mile from my house. This house is closer. The advent center is closer to my house than the pool.

All right. Thank you for your um time. I have no further questions. Thank you. Thank you. The next person that was sworn in.

Hello, my name is Lee Kristoff. I live at 7790 New Haven Drive. My comments will not be as eloquent as the prior two speakers, but sorry. Could you spell your last name? Sure. C H R I S T O FF. Thank you.

Uh throughout the testimony tonight, I think we heard uh several factors that indicate that this property will, if this permit is is granted, reduce the value of the surrounding homes. And I think we've heard consistently that it is inconsistent with the surrounding neighborhood. So I'll discuss several of those points um and u those impact on our house and our property which is about 500 ft away from the event venue as the crow flies. Um, repeatedly was there was discussion about parking and we heard that there will be around 100 to 150 people who will be attending these events and then we saw the limited amount of parking spaces available. By the applicant's own admission, there's going to be at least seven people who will be attending these events who are from the staff who are part of the event staff themselves. We heard about an MC. We heard about a catering event, uh, catering person, assuming just one. We heard about security. Well, actually, we heard about two security people. We heard about someone who may tear down furniture, if not an entire truck. We heard about the host herself who will be there, as well as her staff. So, assuming that that is just one person fulfilling each of those, that would be seven parking spaces taken alone just by event staff. Clearly, there's going to be an overflow parking situation, and I think people have already spoken to that. I don't need to re-emphasize that. Um, as I recall, the ordinance requires uh just in building permit themselves, there needs to be a turnaround space, and that does not seem to be sufficiently identified in the plan. So, I think that needs to be uh requested by the council as to where vehicles are supposed to turn around within this parking lot. Um the expert who spoke on

the audio piece referred to the decibel levels as 39.4 as what he considered to be the baseline. However, multiple times when he was speaking he said with construction in the background. With construction in the background and 39.4 for is not uh we don't typically have construction in the background where I live. So that's a temporary situation. When I typically go out in the evenings with my daughter or my wife, we look at the stars, we enjoy the peace and quiet. Sometimes we hear the crickets, we see the fireflies, and 39.4 is not representative of that noise level in our neighborhood. It's significantly lower than that. I have a baby who's about one years old at this point in time and another three-year-old. They don't go to bed at 9:00 or 11:00. They go to bed about 7 o'clock in the evening. They also go to bed about 3:00 in the afternoon. And if he falls asleep, the one-year-old sometimes at 11 in the morning. And so I'm worried about sound, not just in the evening, but consistently throughout the entire day. Um, I've been to Indian weddings. They're phenomenal, really exciting. Those are dayong events that happen first thing in the morning and they go all the way through the evening and they're fun to be a part of, but that's not really uh consistent with the noise levels in our neighborhood at all and nor really frankly any type of wedding being consistent with the neighborhood that we have and the noise levels that are associated with that. I do I would like to point the town council to the long-term uh plan and uh for Oak Ridge as a whole which is not identifying this area where this piece of land is located as something that should be designated for commercial use in the future. So, I think this permit, as we even heard the mention of resoning already tonight by the applicant's own attorney, and um I just caution against us setting precedent towards a resoning of this into late commercial space,

which would also clearly be inconsistent both with the long-term zoning plan uh and with the neighborhood that surrounds it. One of the items that the sound technician also mentioned was around pointing the speakers and pointing the speakers in specific directions. Um, it is common knowledge. I'm not an audio expert, but I think that person would attest based base level frequencies are omnidirectional, meaning they move in all directions. It doesn't matter which way you point your subwoofer, the sound will travel equally in all distances. And uh he gave one decimal level but it was unclear at which frequency level that was associated with. Bass is known to uh not degrade at the same level and same distance as uh other midtone or higher frequency sounds. Um again I would ask the council to redirect that question to that witness since he's still here. Uh the appraiser mentioned a giant uh we actually heard about a giant tent that would be consistently on this facility for outdoor conversations and yet the appraiser talked about the visual uh view of the property. A tent is not consistent with the visuals of the surrounding area and that would negatively affect the property. One of the things that kind of confusing on this map is we see the 100 foot setback that 100 foot setback actually should continue through the entirety of the house. It would actually cut the house in half as to where the amplified sound is available or where the speakers are allowed to be set up. So I just wanted to make sure that any future map was updated to reflect the restrictions and zoning there. Uh the last piece I think is just uh I'm not a valuation expert but I am a CPA

and I've done valuation uh in many areas and there's often multiple ways to arrive at valuations of properties. A paired property does not sound like a sufficient analysis because it takes two data points. If you were to ask somebody to appraise well actually all of us are going through a property tax reappraisal right now and there's not one data point that's provided. It's typically three or four data points that are provided for comparison purposes. So what is often the case in these situations is an expert can take whichever data point most likely proves their point as to the impact on valuation. So we don't really have an idea which properties were considered and which properties were not considered as we're looking at baseline and comparison points of view. Um you don't need to be an expert to know that that that's the case. There's also an alternative valuation methodology if you were to go list your house on the market, which is to look at what are the surrounding properties in my area and what's the price per square foot. And I'm not sure, I didn't see the analysis, so I'm not sure what was considered, but again, it sounded like pairing means one to one as opposed to a full larger sample size. And the last piece, again, I'm not a valuation expert, but we did hear from one who did acknowledge during his testimony that light, noise, and traffic all reduce the value of a property. And those are all the factors that we're considering during this discussion tonight. I'm strongly opposed to this permit as a whole. Uh I think people are hedging their bets by asking for concessions, but it's just not consistent. This is not why I moved to Oakidge. is to live next to a party and event center. I mean, the probably the final nail in the coffin was nobody, I think, even considered the security risks until that was raised tonight of we're going to have drunk people in our neighborhood potentially, uh, that to the extent that we need security guards to manage situations, assaults, um, and all of those types of situations. And, um, I worry about the safety not only of

myself, but our community. Pretty much every single house adjacent to me has uh children in in that home. And to someone's point earlier, we do just let them play outside and have a great time in the yard and go up and down the street. And I don't want that to be taken away because we've allowed someone to just invite 150 strangers who are many of them not from the area into the neighborhood to have a good time. Thank you. Um, other than CPA, do you hold any professional licenses, Mr. Kristoff? I hold an active law license in Illinois. In Illinois, how long have you held that? 16 years.

Uh, what what do you do for a living? You practice as a CPA? Uh, no. I'm the chief financial officer of an organization. Okay. Um, was it your testimony that being a CPA qualifies you to professionally critique the work of a real estate appraiser? Is that what I heard you say? More than an average person off the street. Sure.

Nonetheless though, you're not claiming you're an expert in real estate appraisal u so as to be tendered to this council as an expert witness. So, these are just follow-up questions that I think would be great for the council to ask the person that you brought in, including alternative techniques that could be available, as well as acknowledging the factors that he mentioned by by his own uh testimony regarding multiple things that could decrease the value of the property, including light, noise, and increased traffic. So, so you just admitted that you're not offering evidence at this time. You're trying to make subtle suggestions to the council. Uh, no. I'm just reemphasizing the point that your own person made.

Do you have any evidence to offer or is are you just going to be making argument to the council? Uh, I offered a lot of evidence and I think my statements stand on themselves. Uh, was any of the evidence related to matters of real estate appraisal? Yes, I concur with your experts uh opinion that the increase of uh light, noise, and traffic will reduce the value of our property. No further questions. Thank you. Witness. No questions. No questions. No. Thanks. Thank you.

We have one other gentleman who was sworn in. State your name and tell us where you live. Yeah, my name is uh Barry Gloson. I live at 6617 Stormcraftoft Drive. Uh I'm currently employed with the Ger County Sheriff's Office. I've been in law enforcement for 40 years with the Guilford County for 30. Um I worked u that area uh for 15 years and of course I live in that area. Now I'm currently assigned to civil process at uh Gibsonville area, McLeanville area. Uh the only concern I have I'm talk to you about security. I know they testified in reference to hiring uh deputies off duty uh involved in alcohol. One for um 50 and two for 100. Well, the only concern I got, they also had testified that uh in reference to traffic, they would get the deputies to assist them to enter the parking lot and exit the parking lot. My question would be knowing uh how the sheriff department operates in reference to offduty um when they testify that they will hire deputies. Um realistic this is how offduty works is for officers that are not working the company or whoever will hire the officer and pay them extra money to come in. Well, the issue is that we got tons of offduty out there that can't be filled. So, I made a phone call to uh Major Anteneelli to confirm that. Also made a phone call to Captain Suits to confirm that yes, we do have offduty that cannot be uh that we can't hire anybody because we just short of manpower or what the case may be or they might not want to vent. So, they had testified that they

will have security there, but under general statute 2114-1, um civilians or security guards are not allowed to direct traffic out on the road. Only rescue, fire, and law enforcement officer. So, that could be an issue. Um there is two adjacent roads that surround the event center which has if they park there on the side of the road it is easy access to get to the event center. Now, yes, they can call law enforcement, but in perspective, we have four officers, five officers on a good night or good day that covers 200 square miles. So, it will definitely put a strain on the sheriff department to respond to this type of calls. As far as off duty, I have worked Somerville off duty at these events, these wedding events. Typically, they do have contact with us by phone. They want us out of sight. They don't want us near the wedding. Uh they want us uh off site. If there's an issue, they will call us and then we will respond. Um for what reason? I don't know. I mean, I can't imagine you having a wedding and you got two law enforcement officers watching you drink, smoke dope, whatever. I'm sure they wouldn't feel comfortable. Um, every every 10 statistic shows every 10 drivers that we stop, there's always one impaired driver. Um,

my question would be, if they can't get law enforcement or sheriff department out there to work off duty, what would be the next step? Security guards. Well, working as a security guard, how are you going to get those people out on the roadway? And people do cut through Stonecraftoft Drive. I had a complaint that especially around school, people going down the road flying. So I have sit down at the end of the road running radar just clocking cars. But you know in a mark unit with a big white car, big blue lights, they see you, they're going to slow down. And I have stopped a couple. But, uh, with this event center, uh, with more traffic, um, I'm almost probably 100% guarantee not everybody's going to follow the rules. I can almost guarantee you that somebody's going to be parking on adjacent roads, Stonecroft Drive or Ashen Park, and Sher Point is going to be getting calls. And like I said, uh, we just don't have the resources right now to deal with those kind of problems. and definitely off duty. We just there's too many people want us and not enough of us.

Thank you. Any questions? Just Just I didn't catch your residence address. Could you give that one more time, please? I'm uh 667 Strong Stonecraftoft, just right down the road from the 6672 Stonecraftoft. How far would you estimate that is from the event the proposed event center? Uh roadway or per site both.

Uh it's probably um less than probably about a third of a mile 150 yards bird site. Very close. I mean, when they building construction, I sit on my back porch and I can see them during their construction. Yeah. Next door neighbor. Okay. Thanks. I have no further questions. Any questions? Any questions for any questions from council? No questions. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Okay. Where are we at now, sir? Okay.

I believe uh Mr. you had asked for any further evidence witnesses and the the three who have just testified were the responding persons. So if there's no further evidence, it would be appropriate to close the evidentary hearing. Uh the sole formal party is the applicant. You can ask their applicants council if he wishes to make a final argument before council then discusses the matter.

Okay. So at this time uh with no further objections we'll close the evidentiary hearing. Um we still have uh applicants coun council do you have any further

uh real real quickly Mr. Mayor members of council thank you again for your time this evening and your public service uh listening to everything now through two marathon sessions on this. I uh I go to a lot of public hearings. I I just want you to know that I respect you very much for it. Um you've heard all kinds of evidence tonight. It's and and all kinds of things that aren't evidence tonight for that matter, too. Um I want to stress to you though that uh we're talking about a special use permit here that would be revocable by the town of Oakidge. If there are problems with this facility, if it doesn't meet the standards that you have the prerogative to write into this permit, it can be revoked. And that's why this is very different than just a reszoning. This is a specially used permit and it is revocable. So, um I I don't I would submit to you that you're not going too far out on a limb giving this a chance to the extent that my clients have presented you with four different experts. Uh Mr. Greco uh who's an expert in site planning and and surveying and civil engineering. Um Mr. Crowder who's an appraisal expert uh Mr. Chang who is a sound expert. And of course um Mr. Crowder the appraisal expert. So um

four was that four? Did I get it? I think it was the lady. Oh uh well she's actually a fact witness. Good. She's not an expert witness. So I just counted three. Who are we missing? We got the um I guess it is Mr. Ch. I stand corrected. It's three. three three. Okay.

Oh my my client has presented three expert witnesses and then the fact witness who was uh going to be in charge of operating this facility if you issue the permit to give it a chance. Uh the opposition has presented no expert testimony whatsoever. I with all due respect, some of them have uh that familiarity with things. Um um the standard here and I I I'll let your own attorney uh answer questions about this if you'd like, but the standard here is very clear that ultimately in the in a quasi judicial proceeding such as this, if you're not an appraiser, if you're not an engineer and you give testimony and that is relied on to deny the special use permit, then that is then that is something that would warrant reversal of your decision. that there's a statute that says that. So, um I I do want to remind you that um my clients have have uh and and it's cost them, but they've hired professionals who are licensed, who've done this repeatedly, who have expertise that is completely different from the comments that many of the folks that the other folks you've heard from have made. I'm not saying that they don't feel strongly about this. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to them, but it's a whole different level and the laws of the state of North Carolina recognize that. So, I would just ask that you uh carefully consider the documentary evidence that was uh uh put into the record through these expert witnesses and their testimony uh as you proceed to evaluate the two remaining uh factors uh that that were at issue in this hearing. Thank you very much.

Thank you, sir. So, Mr. Thomas, can I ask a question? Yes, please. Is it possible that we delay our decision to go to look at this, go back and listen to the the minutes so we get it right. Uh, as before, you may decide tonight or you may uh defer decision until the council has had a chance individually to uh digest and consider the matter and then come back into session to discuss it. You cannot discuss it outside of session either tonight or at a subsequent session, but you could do that. Senator, how long would it take to get the minutes?

A month, two months. Just curious. I'm sorry, but the minutes will take some time because it is quasi quasi judicial and it you have to be very detailed. Um, but the YouTube recording is available and you can look at a transcript on that. It is not always accurate because they don't always pick up all the words, but you that is possible.

Okay, that's my stance. I'm not willing to make a decision tonight. I would very much like to make a decision tonight out of fairness to everyone here who's given their time um two evenings long evenings and this one's going long and also out of respect to the applicant who's brought in all the expert witnesses for which and and their attorney. Um it seems that we just need to do our job. Um we have two points to speak on. Are we talking yet? Are we discussing now? Well, I was about to go to deliberation by council when Mr. Griezon asked his question, right, Mr. Thomas,

but um I'm I mean I I would say we're at the deliberation by council on these two points and I would love to give it a try. Okay. But all right. Mr. Gracie, would you make I would like to make a motion that we defer this till the May meeting.

Is there a second? We're not there.

So, we're now to the point of council's deliberation. Uh we will focus on point four which is the use will or will not substantially injure the value of adjoining or abing property or the use is a public necessity. This is based on sworn testimony and evidence submitted during the evidentiary hearing which shows the following. That's the the thing that we will state. Um at the last session there was no evidence presented. Um I believe we have some tonight.

Floor's open to I want to thank the applicant um yeah

and Mr. Crowder for providing this study. Although I I it's easy to flip through and there's just a wealth of information in here. And I would like to say that I personally was convinced of the high ethical standards and the independence of the appraisal by the testimony given by the expert witness, Mr. Crowder. So I at the same time I did also hear from many of others who spoke who believe that their property values will be negatively impacted. This is a difficult thing to hear when you're a council member. But I want to tell you based on my eight years plus of being on council, plus uh long experience on the historic preservation commission and watching uh other councils work and watching planning and zoning cases, every time there is any type, this is a type of resoning, but it's a very special type of reasonzoning, this special use permit. Is that a fair thing to say, Sean? I mean, it's allowing a new use.

I I would say that's not the best way to phrase it because the property was already zoned. Okay. This is not zoning. This is a special use. The zoning contemplated issuance of a special use permit if it met the development criteria and plus any additional conditions count council put on it. So that legislative decision was made as to the appropriateness of special uh event center subject to issuance of an SU.

I'm I'm trying to make a much simpler point. I'm just saying that we're allowing a different use which is a parallel change to what many people experience when they think about a resoning. Okay. So, every time I've ever seen a a reszoning, a new use, commercial, more density, every time that's ever happened in the history of my involvement in this town, which goes back to 2009, including, you know, trails, um, all sorts of things, you know, any change, we hear that property values are going to be lowered. And I just want to say that it has never happened. You know, the the trail that we discussed last month, it was in place as an easement for two years. And what happened? The property sold.

What can we can we stick to talking about the facts that were presented as evidence versus anecdotes about past decisions?

I'm trying to make no disrespect intended. that is factual that every time we've ever heard about a change, people are uncomfortable with that and state that their property values are going to go down, but our property values in Oakidge continue to go up. Now, that doesn't mean that some of the specific concerns aren't valid, but it helps me in my understanding of how it could be possible that a report like this could come to such strong conclusions with four, seven other properties for events. There were four event centers and several sports and schools. And I found that extremely helpful and convincing and I'm pairing it with my experience watching what happens. And I know that people worry and that's a fact. But I don't see a fact that that worry translates into lower property values in Oakidge.

Are you saying your prior experience has led you to have a fixed belief that nothing would lower the property value? I just the way you're phrasing it is concerning. And I just I don't want us to be seen as basing our decision based on previous decisions because it's just based on facts and testimony. So I mean I I get your point about saying this was convincing. That's fine. I just Okay. Stop there then. Yeah. I just wanted I think change is hard and we all react poorly to it including me. This is quasi judicial for this one. So

okay. So again, we're still on the subject of uh value adjoining or abuing the property. And so I'll ask that. Do we have factual evidence that was presented tonight in evidence that uh that the um the value as presented by Mr. Sorry

Crowder. Prowder stated that as as far as I understood it is that it would have little effect on the property surrounding. But I mean that may be a very simple evaluation of this something this big that we got tonight to look at. Well, since he was the only expert here, I don't see how you could vote any other way. But exactly. I mean, there's no other cross. Yeah.

Whatever. Mr. Mayor, the the I think it would be appropriate to invite a motion if any member has one, finding one or more facts either supporting or not supporting that uh uh criterion.

I move that we accept the conclusions included in the impact study prepared by Mr. Crowder and the uh conclusions drawn that the properties, the event centers and other community event uh locations that he reviewed that they did not affect nearby property values as a fact. finding of fact indicating that this particular event center will not substantially injure the value of a joining or abudding property.

That was a motion. Yeah. Is there a second to the motion? I'll second the motion.

Okay. Is there further discussion on the motion? So here here's here's my deal. in the absence of of evidence to the contrary, then I'll I'll accept that the information that was provided from a discussion of property values that there is um that there is evidence to support the contentions of Mr. Crowder, as a real estate appraiser, that being said, there are concerns that I have that probably, well, not probably, there are other factors within the report that I'm going to question from a harmony standpoint. we'll get there but absent any other evidence then I have no way of saying that the property values will uh will suffer. So I I'll take the information that we have as as fact.

Let's vote on it. Mr. Yeah, that summarizes how I uh felt as well. I don't need to make a comment. Let's vote on it. Okay. Do we have a a motion and a second? I would ask that all in favor of this motion say I. I. I. All oppose say nay. Okay. So, here's number four is dealt with. We'll go through the same the same uh process w with uh the special

uh conditions of number five which is the location and character of the use if developed according to the plan submitted will or will not be in harmony with the area in which it is located and is or is not in general conformity with the plan of development of the jurisdiction and its environments. This is based on sworn testimony and evidence submitted during the evidentiary hearing.

And again, Mr. Mayor, the best approach, I think, would be to invite again a motion uh from a member either that uh one or more facts support such a finding or one or more facts uh uh do not support it.

Jim So, we have councel to consider a motion to or to or not to u this whether or not there's harmony with this proposal to the uh with the area in which it is located and it's not general conformity to the plan of development. Is there a motion?

Let me uh let me try this. Last time we had to revise it a few times, but let me start. Um, I make a motion uh that determines that the location and character of use, if developed according to the plan, would not be in harmony with the area in which it's located and is not in general conformity with the plan of development of jurisdiction and its environments.

Second. Well, wait. Don't you have to site um facts that support that? So, as finding of fact based on the sworn testimony and the evidence presented, the staff at our prior meeting has pointed out that this area is zoned RS40 and therefore the adjacent business would not be compatible or in harmony with RS40. and and I'm going to try and figure out how to state this. The the testimony provided by Mr. Crowder incorrectly associates harmony in the in the surrounding area and with churches. Uh I'm sorry, here it is with religious facilities that commonly host weddings and receptions. We'll have to I know we'll have to wiggle around. We'll have to fix that. But yeah, I guess uh so Mr. Thomas, are we allowed to, I guess, when you were instructing previously, were you saying to make a motion about listing out the findings of fact that we had related to it and then make a motion to, you know, determine if it is or is not in harmony? Or do we say, you know, this is a finding of fact showing it's not in harmony. This is a finding fact showing that is in harmony. That's because it seems like it's hard to make a motion without discussing all the findings of

fact first and and so Mr. Thomas go ahead. No, I you don't have to go by what I was suggesting. I was just saying if you already were prepared to make such a motion that had one or more facts either way you could that's a good way to organize discussion. Yeah, you have the discretion to discuss it as long as you want to before a motion's made. Ultimately, the way you decide is by motion. And so there needs to be a motion at some point with one or more facts that support the conclusion either way.

Yes or no as to that criterion if that helps. But you know, it's a motion's been made. Uh there's been an attempt to put a factor or facts to it. Yeah, I was hoping that the discussion would add the facts, but if you feel like you'd rather wait and see what the discussion is, you could withdraw the motion and have the discussion first and then come back and make the motion if you want if you feel more comfortable with that approach. I'll withdraw the motion so that we can have the conversation. Is that all right with you, Mr. Greon? Sure.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess I mean I'll summarize um personally you know in the last hearing we did hear a lot of evidence and you know looked over the application and um its use and whatnot and at that time uh I took issue with various points um provided in that hearing uh you know one being the proposed capacity, the hours all of that um and the issues that I had at the time based on tonight's uh evidence presented. I don't feel like any additional evidence has presented to change the items that had given me pause in the prior meeting. Um so basically just the fact that it is surrounded by residential all of the you know touching adjacent properties being residential. No other adjacent property has the kind of capacity for people, traffic, noise. There's just it's just not in harmony because just those things haven't changed. I guess you know in my mind giving the applicant continuing the discussion was to see if any further evidence could be presented to change um those points but I haven't seen it I guess. Does it seem to you as if when I hear this, it sounds to me like you don't see a way for an event center to be compatible with RS40 if it's all surrounded by RS40. Um, yeah. And so I guess you know the issue in the ordinance how it says if something is currently zoned RS40 and this is what I said in the last meeting too. If it's currently zoned RS40, there

might be some scenarios where the RS40 might be adjacent to other differently zoned properties that would make it in harmony with that having an event center. But here since it's adjacent to all other RS40 and you know the criteria um hadn't really changed from the first time just the capacity and frequency and all that I just don't I can't get to where I feel like how it's described it could be in harmony. just don't if if we have an ordinance that says that an event center can be allowed by special use permit in RS40 to say that I that sounds like a fixed opinion to me

that doesn't mean it's in harm. No, it's I'm saying surrounded by RS40.

What I would it and not completely surrounded by RS40. It's got limited business and general business across the street. it uh faces onto a major uh thoroughare, a North Carolina state highway actually. And so I would say that I was very interested in the expert testimony on noise because that was one of my concerns from last time. And I found that his testimony was not only appeared very credible to me as as again I said I I'm not a specialist in this at all but I was convinced by his credentials and by his testimony that and we did accept him as an expert witness. So I feel that I have to accept many of his conclusions and I I found that to be um extremely helpful in identifying compatibility with the surrounding area because we heard other examples and I I understand that there are concerns and you know the swimming pool example that's that's that's a an interesting one um the peacefulness of being able to walk in your community. I believe these are things we can think about. But there is this the measurement of sound is an exact science and there is not only um a a fence but also a tree area that further mitigates and for instance at a local swimming pool sound is magnified by um just the open air and the concrete and all that sort of thing. So I'm not sure that we have um the

ability to con to compare that directly. Um but I found that to be a mitigating helpful. I also found it very helpful that they talked about the trolley. I found the security um very helpful. And I do um can I ask a question of one of the um or of Mr. I don't know if someone my question is this and we'll see if it can be answered. I understand and we know from our experience here at the town that offduty officers are very difficult to get. You made a great point about that. But I assume that this event center just as we do has access to um other security officers through firms. They're nodding their heads. So if they can't if you can't get an offduty um Guilford County Sheriff's deputy, you can get other people. Yeah.

Have you heard his testimony about uh they couldn't park cars on the street or could Yeah. They can't go out in direct traffic. We also know that. Mr. Grayson, I'm sorry. If if you talk, can you sit up at your microphone? Thank you. I can't hear you. Go ahead, Miss Ner.

Um I I know they can't direct traffic and we can't let you talk from back there, but um but they can't direct traffic in the street, but they can certainly direct traffic within the parking lot. And that's that's lawful. They they do that at Oakidge Elementary. Um teachers do. So I found that um helpful in terms of harmony. Um I think the trolley anytime you're grouping a lot of people together, it helps a lot with traffic. I also I've been to three wedding venues in the last year and what I heard from uh Miss Heiser um I heard a very strict reliance on the contract terms and I know from having uh two kids married over the last year and going to additional weddings that when you go to a venue the person that plays that role in concert with the coord coordinators. Um, it's their job to enforce and it's our job as the town. Another fact I would put on reference is that our town has a stellar record of enforcing all zoning and use permits. So, anything that happens were this to be approved, we are on it. it. You don't you know you you may think at on the evening, oh, I can't get a sheriff's deputy deputy out there, but our town enforces its ordinances. So, if there's a pattern of misbehavior and they know, the applicant knows this. Mr. Grio knows this. Um, so I found that very helpful. So those are three things that I would say I parking, traffic, noise that I and security that I feel

much more pleased with how they are going to be in harmony with the uh surrounding neighborhood. How about operating hours? Do you have a

Well, I was just going to add that uh I think we saw evidence that whereas the ordinance or or as uh I think to 11 o'clock at night at least in uh now I've lost lost your name lady Miss Eisen um there was evidence that they are willing to basically dial that back to from 11 o'clock to 9:00 with the understanding that after 9:00 would just be for cleanup and breakdown and it would the event would be over. Um, but there would still be people on site with sole purpose or multiple purposes of breaking down and and and uh cleaning up the site uh before before departure. Uh and I think that was one of the things I think that many of us were looking for from the last uh February 5th meeting where it didn't seem to be any flexibility u by the applicant but I thought there seemed to be defense. Now I realize based on um that that this is in a tenative contract. Uh but we could we could uh in a special use permit write that in as uh absolutely required. And and so I I I I think that that the applicant certainly gave a good evidence along the way as you stated, plus showed some willingness to um uh to to try to be uh more in compat compatibility from the standpoint of

ours and and the noise and and other issues. I couldn't support nine o'clock at night from Sunday through Thursday. I cannot support that.

Yeah. Well, and I guess so based on the the factual testimony, um, Miss Heiser said that greater than 50 attendees presents security issues, alcohol related issues, parking issues, traffic issues. Granted, the applicant's proposed options to mitigate those risks, but I think just the fact that the applicant acknowledged that those are issues in this scenario once you get past a certain capacity that demonstrates it's not in harmony with the surrounding area. And I don't believe that those options they presented would fully mitigate those risks. So that's where I'm just capacity, you know, security, park, all all the things really all stem from just the capacity, the number of people coming in there. So let let me try to go back to my original thought here and all this conversation is helpful but comment was made that we have an ordinance that says you can have special use permit permit for an event center. Yes, we sure do. But while RS40 zoning may allow for the use this allowance does not necessarily designate this use as harmonious with the surrounding area. And that's that's the dig for me. I looked at and this would be a finding of fact and I'm trying to figure out how to put it in my head. But this packet of information, a wealth of information here, much appreciated. But this packet of information,

the comparisons that were presented as facts by the applicant, uh, the first one is for Somerfield Farms and it shows a house that's across the street or adjacent to, but I asked the question specifically, how far is it from, and if we don't have the pictures, but there's this great big farm and then there's a house. Okay, we're not talking about from property line distance, you know, we're talking about going across I don't know how far. Um, there was no evidence presented how far, but we know it's not adjacent to like we're talking about with the properties in Oakidge. Number two was an aerial view of Bella Kina Mansion located in Mount Carmel Road, Stokesdale. Well, it's sitting on a lake and the aerial view of it, there's woods all around that thing and it sits on its own little peninsula. That ain't Oakidge. I I'm just pointing out that that is not evidence that this is an issue. They're different. They're not the same. Um, the other one was uh Maple or uh let me see the penthouse wedding event center. I've been to the penthouse and if you've ever been to Reedville and you gone to the penthouse, you drive up a pretty long driveway. So again, from an aerial point of view that the applicant provided, it's secluded. It's way away. So from a factbased evidence presented, the the property requesting the applicant requesting the special use permit has

provided no factual evidence that there is something similar here. The other part of it is that let me stop there for a minute. Let me gather my thoughts. No, let me go ahead and finish this. Okay. The other evidence that was provided uh by Mr. Crowder um in his report concludes that the the property that we're talking about will be in harmony because there are other facilities adjacent or very close by that provide event opportunities. He's talking about churches. This isn't a church, you know. It's it's it was built as a house, a single family residence, repurposing, fine, we can talk about that. But to suggest that a a single family home on three acres of land is the same as Oakidge Methodist Church is it does not support the case. The fact that the applicant provided says that it's not in harmony with the with the property the subject property.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean to your point like the church I could see if it was adjacent to a church maybe that would be maybe closer to harmony with the surrounding area and you could kind of compare saying well the church has XYZ so that's kind of in harmony with that but yeah I don't see any other point of comparing this to a church I think the point of comparing it to a church and you know I is that churches especially Oakidge Methodist church of the ones that are right near there hold outdoor and indoor events all the time with amplified sounds. They sound they sit right next to we sit right next to uh the new neighborhood Oakidge Landing. And of course churches part of our freedom of religion says that churches and religious other religious places don't have you know they don't have decibel limits. They don't, you know, except for the noise, the overall noise ordinance, which is pretty hard to pin down as far as I understand. But what he's saying, I think what they were pointing out is that there are big events that happen there. There are whole parking lot events there. There are amplified concerts that happen outside at the Methodist church

at night. Uh, not at night usually. All right. That's a good point. And it isn't the I know it isn't the same as an event center potentially having, you know, successive um successive events, but to my knowledge, our church there there was a complaint about the bells by a resident. The a resident didn't like the bells at the church, but I set that aside as silliness. There's never been a complaint that I know of. But

and and let me piggyback on that. That kind of makes my point is that even the churches most of their activities are indoors and the same as the evidence presented by the applicant the distance from the church where the noise is being created sound sorry if you're I was Pentecostal so you know we make noise um anyway the noise or sound uh is different, you know, because it's it's inside of a facility and it's farther away. The findings of fact tell us that the these are not similar. The facts tell us they are dissimilar and therefore they're not harmonious.

The I think the point was there are other places where celebrations happen very close to this one. So that's a point well taken. I think now it is different also um and this is inherently different from RS40. That is true. It is different from the florist across the street. But I would submit that the ordinance control over the decibel limit and the little tutorial that at least I appreciated on how sound travels and how it reduces in decibel level over distance and with uh things like walls and trees. um leads me to believe that this sound and if the s if the normal sound there the construction there isn't like steel beam construction it's just like a few guys with hammers and stuff but if if the normal level of sound there with the traffic from Oakidge Road is 40 39 or 40 dB I and based on his demonstration I believe that there is a an excellent plan in place to mitigate the sound and keep it within the limits that's established by the ordinance.

Well, we weren't offered anything by the applicant before this meeting to say that we could do or they would be willing to do. We heard testimony about one change u that was made in the hours. Harmony is not the same as compliance to the ordinance. And what what I hear is argument that well there's an ordinance and if we comply with the ordinance we're in harmony. It you're in compliance with an an ordinance. You're in harmony with the environs. That's why the motion and all the paperwork we have is written that way.

I would say that the evidence provided by Mr. Chang indicated that they are more than complying. In other words, the sound is never going to be 80 dB outside that perimeter, that 100 foot perimeter. It's going to be about 40 at most. 3040, you know, with the trees in the sound. So, I think they're more than complying. Similarly, the capacity for outside guests is now down to 125, more than complying with what we heard last time. the hours have been reduced more than complying with the ordinance. I think that indicates an effort at harmony that I have faith in based on the facts.

Yeah, I agree effort at harmony, but um I don't believe it's achieved. And yeah, like we discussed, I think the additional evidence presented didn't prove that it is within harmony. Um, I mean, we could discuss back and forth all night probably. Any other any other comments? So, does anyone have a motion?

Let me let me try this again. And I apologize. We're have to struggle through it. Um, I make a motion that the location and character of the use, if developed according to the plan, is not in harmony with the area in which it's located and is not in general conformity with the plan of development of the jurisdiction and its environs. I further offer that the finding of fact is that staff has testified that the Oakidge land use plan identifies this area as RS40 for residential use. I also offer as a finding a fact that based on the testimony, the subject properties presented in support of the application are in fact in support of denying this claim because they are not similar and in fact are entirely dissimilar. Second. We have a motion and it's been seconded.

You want clarification, M? I if if the if the seven or so properties included in Mr. Crowder's study are all dissimilar in all ways. How did we accept it as a finding of fact for property values? I wasn't talking about property values. No, I know, but we did. Yeah. Okay. I concede it to the property value. Okay. Do do we need further discussion? We have a motion and a second.

You as always uh you can discuss as long as you want, but if there's no further discussion, then the question is called by either a member or by the mayor. I have a question for Mr. Thomas. Do we need to state every single finding of fact in the motion or is that just evidenced by our discussion of findings of fact and then the motion

the motion has stated a basis for it but being in the negative it's essentially saying there was an insufficient showing by the applicant to support a finding support that finding Mr. Stone has included a couple of specific references. Then there's the record uh that would also either support or not support that. But you know what's in the record? We went over this. I don't think you need two two items are enough.

I don't think you need to be more specific than his motion being in the negative. If it's in the positive, then you you clearly have to have one or more facts stated that support the showing. Anything further? Anything further? Okay, we have a motion and it's been seconded and uh any further discussion. I I don't think we have any further discussion, but I'll look to everyone

and uh I don't think at this point and because we're pretty close to entering our ninth hour that I don't think you might might not be able to restate that motion. Don't restate it. You got the motion. No, I'm just vote on it. I'm just saying I don't think uh you know with the hour I can restate it if you want. No, no, I'm just uh looking. So, we have a motion and second. I'm going to ask uh do we all in favor say I? I. All oppose say nay.

Nay. Okay. So, Mr. Thomas based on that and the fifth uh Okay. Okay. So, so the the entire issue has been denied. So, thanks to council and to all the participants, to the applicants, and all the neighbors of your uh that had their interest in this quasi judicial process. I think we're done with that.

Let's go. Right. So, we're at 11:10. Do Do we need Do we need quick break? Nope. No. Just go. Let's go. All right. But I'm the I'm the old man. So, uh, thank thank you all for coming and thank you for your evidence uh to the applicant. Okay, we're now to uh on our on our agenda. We're at public comments, community organization reports, etc. I will continue.

Yeah. Could you please step out if you're not going to stay for the rest of the meeting? We still have I hope God quiet. We still have uh business that's ongoing. Please leave the please leave the council chambers. Use your g if you're no longer staying. Please leave the chambers so we can conclude the business. I have so much stuff covered up. I almost forget you have one. just taking out something. I guess we could have taken a break at this. Well, we could have. Let's get it over.

Yeah, let's go. Okay, we got we had public comments. Oh, community organization reports. Uh, do we have uh community report? Jim Kinnman with the Oakidge Lions Club. I just want to let everyone know we're having our dedication ceremony for Tranquility Gardens May 16th at 11 o'clock. We'll send out uh more information about it, but we're inviting council and everyone else to attend. I'm sorry, Jim. What's the date and time? I think May 16 May 16th, 11 o'clock Town Park, and that's down by on the other side of the municipal uh what? Lions. Lions Club. Yes. Lions for the Lions. Heritage on the other side of the multi-purpose fields. There's a trans

Heritage Farm Park. Correct. Not Heritage Farm Park. Heritage Farm Park. I'm sorry. downhill. I thought everybody already seen the lion. If you haven't been there, there's a really cool lion there. So, y Okay. You know, so we'll have uh uh we'll have some lion clubs dignitaries and things like that there and we'd have some probably some treats and stuff like that. So, we're all everyone's invited. We'll have some more details for you shortly. Thanks. Thank you. Any other community organization reports? Any com other comments from the public which disappeared on us? All right. Uh, we have town manager support.

Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Um, in the interest of time, I'm going to just present uh all three of my manager items and council can choose to act as one motion or separately. Um, my report includes a request to reappoint Courtney Harton to the Historic Preservation Commission, appointment of Angie Bird from an alternate to a full member of the board of adjustment, a consideration to approve closing out the Veterans Honor Green phase one restricted fund and moving those remaining funds into the general fund, and consider approval of moving a portion of the Veterans Honor Green phase 2 restricted fund, $13,982.50 50 cents and moving that into the general fund.

I move to approve all three items included in the manager's report. Second. Uh Mr. Bruce, you said a portion of the 13982 or No, I'm sorry. A portion of what's remaining in the phase 2 restricted fund. The 13,000 is a portion of that. And what will be left? Uh around 14,000. Thank you. And these were just funds that were previously paid out of the general fund towards that that is paying back in. Uh that's correct. It's reimbursing the general fund, right? Or or was contributed.

Well, what's remaining? Well, the contributions paid for the construction, but the contributions sat in the restricted fund while the bills were paid out of the general fund. This is reimbursing the general fund for those payments. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. So we So we had a motion. I move second. All in favor? I I new business.

Consideration approval of the fee schedule update and financing meter installation for town municipal water system. That I need to move all my stuff out of the way and find that. Apologies. that's in your packet. You want to describe the two items? I can provide just a brief Yeah. comments, please.

Um in our um in the council packets, you'll see a copy of the water fees and charges schedule, the proposed amendments are the last two items under special conditions. Uh item three, dry tap fee, and item four, meter finance policy. These have both been discussed uh at several meetings of the water advisory committee. Um and the chair of the committee is here this evening if you uh have questions of uh Mr. Sullivan. Uh but the dry tap fee uh is an effort uh to recognize um and acknowledge that several potential customers have requested this option that allows them to connect to the water system but not install a meter and use water at the time of connection. Um it is a way for um future customers to um um take uh have an opportunity to um take advantage of the time in which there will be a a uh free connection period, establishing themselves as future water customers and paying the $24 a month service charge um until the time that they actually install a meter and hook up to water. It's a common practice that uh water systems employ. Uh secondly, um you may be aware that the water advisory committee discussed for several months other ways in which to incentivize uh connection by making uh the fees upfront fees more manageable. Uh one option uh that they have now recommended is to offer a meter finance policy. Residential meters are currently $500. those can be changed based on market conditions. Um and the water advisory committee is proposing uh that that payment can be made in installments over a period of two years uh with a um a small u finance charge

essentially. Mr. Bruce, the um meter finance policy, the meters are $500 a piece. that in that includes the meters. We we purchase them for 300 or or somewhere in that range. Okay. So, there is a markup uh that that we apply and then also the installation is included in that fee. That's where I was going. So, the $500 is is the purchase and installation and and everything else. So, that's correct. a a future water customer could decide to just pay the $500 upfront and be done with it or they could do it over two two years. Correct. Thank you.

Make a motion to approve. Second. It's been a motion to approve and a second. All in favor? I say I. All opposed. Vay. Okay, thank you. All right, I'm actually beginning to see close to the bottom of the pile. I just buried tried to and tried to get to where I could see something. I buried the agenda, but I'll get to it. Here we go. We're up to Mr. Sam. All right. Uh just No, no, we're at new business. We new business. Oh, we got that.

All right. I thought we just approved that. Consider No, we we did the we did the water system. So, uh in no business consideration approval of the 20 26 to 2031 capital improvement plan. Uh you have that information in front of you. Make a motion that we approve the capital improvement program as presented. Second. Okay. Is there any discussion?

Yeah. Just note for uh listeners, we've already, you know, discussed this and reviewed it. Um so it looks good. At at our February meeting, our CIP meeting, we discussed this at length and it this current CIP relies on a motion made by council to lower the long-held policy of maintaining at least 2 million in our general fund. Therefore, I'm against this and I would vote for it only if the pickle ball eight the million dollars for uh the sports courts was moved out so that we could move it back in when we can maintain a higher balance. The reason I think we need to maintain a higher balance uh which I think was glossed over at our CIP meeting um is because of the potential cost of repairs that fall outside our insurance parameters. For instance, a new roof is not always paid for by insurance, and that's a big cost. Potential legal costs in our incre increasingly latigious times or even unexpected one-time opportunities, all things that we can't plan for, but should be prepared for. I would also note that even the current CIP, even if we accept the $1 million lower um lower balance, we go below it to 980 in year three, I think. And then we the bottom line after we back out our restricted funds brings us to um negative numbers, forcing us by year three to have to unrestrict some of our restricted funds. So I'm not in favor of this.

The the uh other thing that I would add to it is around uh if you look past the last five years um there especially coming out of COVID and then the inflation reduction. Uh there was a there was a lot of cash out in the market and our teams and staff and every previous councils were good at getting those monies uh either as part of or as well as water. Um I do not believe that that money is going to be readily available for the next few years out of Raleigh or frankly out of uh the county. And if there is such money, it's probably going to continue to go to Western North Carolina first. So, I'm concerned that grants aren't going to be as big as they were. And I'm agree with an uh I'm not sure that two million's the right number, but I I I think that we should revert back to uh no more than uh reducing it by no more than a half a million and making sure that we're building that back up over time so we can react.

You know, I'm going to support it because we don't have to do it. We don't have to build any pickle ball courts. We can always look. We don't even know what the number's going to be. I mean, we can look at we can make our decisions and we're big boys, so let's see what it is and I'll go along with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to build pickle ball courts. I mean, I would like to look at the numbers. I have no clue what pickle ball courts cost. You're right. I mean, every decision we could kick it down the road can be made. It's it's a plan and as we move forward, we can adjust the plan. However, I think it's my problem is it's not a sound plan. So, let's call the question.

Okay. Well, sorry, we're not yet at a full Harden, but we're getting close. Um, so we want the motion motion was to accept the capital improvement plan as presented and it was second by Mr. Grayson. Okay. Any further discussion? All right. All All in favor say I. I. I. Nay. No. I mean all oppose say nay. Nay. Okay. So it was approved. That was approved. All righty. Monthly financial. All right. Sam, you've been doing good for us.

And we don't even didn't even didn't even have to shake Sam

to get him up. Good evening, council. Everyone should have received the financial reports and the finance officers report. Um, basically similar to prior months. Um, we're still maintaining our uh strong position, looking for good interest rates and uh making sure the bills are paid. Um all that's going through uh the grant money uh with the water lines uh is surprisingly is uh coming in faster than any other grant money that we've had. So um that's helping us out on the float. We're maintaining you know not having to put as much of our balance into paying and when waiting 30 to 60 days for the state. It's been this actually this last go round was less than 30 days from start to finish. So all that's looking really well. Um, just to cover a few key things, a wire transfer, this is a low collection month. Um, 14,48406. Motor vehicle taxes was 10,38749. Um, property tax 4,9657. That's normal. Uh, the bulk of the property taxes are always paid up through January. So, this is a normal tail end of the year for the the actual property tax. um funds coming in um you know received interest planning and zoning fees franchise taxes some of these we're still watching those trends some are trending a little lower uh HBC donations all the normal stuff investments I've covered staff we're working with grant compliance and we're continuing to support all the ARPA work we're wrapping up on that um the only other thing that I want to bring to your attention um it's a good opportunity to recalibrate and look at some things But it's also um a change that is our

auditor uh director uh Chad Cook who was born and raised here in Oakidge. Chad has been promoted and is actually taking John Park's job. If um a few folks in the town may remember John Park, he was one of the partners, came out, presented to the council a few times. Um he has been their uh partner in charge of quality on all the audits. It's a non-client facing position is how they call it. Basically, Chad was asked to interview. Chad got the job. John is up to mandatory retirement, which I didn't know big firms had. Um, my firm doesn't have mandatory retirement. It's just work until I die. But, uh, I don't think they'll ever let me leave. But, um, it is a good opportunity for Chad. It's tremendous promotion, and we have been very fortunate. Several of the people we've worked with over the decades have moved on to uh very nice positions within the um well it's now forvisers but they've moved into really good positions. But with that said u we had a very frank conversation he would not be able to direct it. They do not have sufficient staff with sufficient training here locally still to handle an engagement of our size. we would be having to look at outsourcing to another Forvis Maser's office probably out of state. So given that um Bill and I have talked and Chad suggested that we look at doing a request for proposals and look at finding another CPA firm that could do it here in our market. I mean somebody that's outside the market. You're looking at travel cost more remote. It's just not as good a quality to me trying to handle everything and spend hours scanning and emailing stuff. So, um, wanted to let you know that we are starting the process of working on that document. It is a standard document through the state local government commission. Um, they've got it. It's in

nice word format. We're putting it together now. Uh, the key thing we've got to have this next year is going to be a single audit for the water work with all this grant money. But, we're going to work on that. So, we will be communicating with council and bringing back um proposals and some new numbers and everything before we get it all out. Right now, we tentatively are looking at having it hopefully cycled and get some responses uh in time for you to vote on it at the June meeting. So, uh this will be the first time that we've we've had several different firms and several different auditors over the decades, but this will be the first time that uh this will be a clean break with no relations. Um, actually for those that may be wondering, Dixon Odin Company back in the day was the number one governmental auditor in the state and they came and solicited us to see if we would want to hire them. Um, and they at that time they did everybody, all the neighbors, all the neighboring cities and all of that. So, it's been a good long run, but the you know, they've gotten much much bigger and um in my industry right now, staffing is a major issue and some firms are dropping whole segments because they can't recruit the talent in those special niches. So, that's where we're at. But that's everything I've got for you. So, um this will give us a good opportunity to see what the market bears and hopefully we may be able to find, uh quality work at a lower rate. We don't know but we'll certainly we're going to dig.

We need to approve anything tonight. Just my report. I move to approve the financial report as presented. Second. All in favor? I I I All right. Are you sure I can talk another hour if you need to? Yeah. Hope you don't have any public comments. Well, we know that we know that's you sleep. We we we know you could do that, Sam. Uh, okay. Committee reports. Uh, leading off special events. Nice to see you, Patty.

Thank you. I'm here tonight. Um Brent's on vacation, so I'm here. Patty Damchowski, 7320 Hidden View Drive. Veterans Honor Green. Our fourth order of uh 30 bricks was delivered on March 31st. I met with Brock to coordinate the installation before Memorial Day. The committee continues to review the panels that will be positioned around the new boardwalk. Once we have suggested wording, we will meet with local veterans and get their feedback. This include the includes the veterans that meet monthly at the Mount Bethl Church on Hall River. Once the committee reviews all the veterans feedback, we will present to town council for their input. 911 memorial work continues on the plaque and placement of the Twin Towers piece for the memorial. is here will be the 25th anniversary of 911 and the event will be held on Friday, September 11th at the flag pole at the Oakidge Park. This year our speaker will be Lenny Bzinski from Trenton, New Jersey. He was a worker at Port Authority and was personally involved with the rescue of many of the people that were trapped in the towers. The blue lights that we put up, we'll put them up on Sunday, September 6, and remain for the rest of the week. We've also invited our Oakidge Fire Department to participate again this year. Fourth of July kids bike parade and evening concert. Our annual kids bike parade is scheduled for Saturday, July 4th at the Oakidge Park. The format will be the same, but this year we'll have the Oakidge Fire Department spraying the kids with water due to the hot temperatures. Hot dogs and ice cream from To the Moon and Back will be provided. And we continue to work with Parks and Wreck to get music for the event. During the evening at 4:30, we will have a patriotic themed concert presented by the Triad Area Band. All are welcomed as we celebrate our country's 250th birthday. We will be

collecting donations of canned goods for the local food bank. And last, Light of the Night. The date for Light of the Night has been changed to Saturday before Thanksgiving. This year it will be on Saturday, November 21st. This was due to the many other Christmas events scheduled in town around us. The parks and recck group will use their scheduling criteria for for installing the luminaries during the month of November. We have also scheduled a workshop at the farmhouse on Thursday, July 16th to help make additional stars and rering the larger stars. This year, we're going to move Santa to the farmhouse, have carolers in period costumes, and special characters walking around to greet the kids. These folks will be from the Summerfield Theater Group. We're also working on improving the signage and distribution of flyers to provide the event timetable to a wider audience. questions, comments.

Thank you for all exciting. Thank you. Seeing you again. Hey, you got the short meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Been the six and a half hour one. Just six. Six hours. Nine minutes. 12 minutes. Six hours. 12 minutes. Okay. Tree board. All right. Parks and wreck. Parks and Mr. Browning. Um 8024 Limple Road. I'm excited to be here with y'all and thank you for all your hard work. Hopefully you're getting paid hourly and not salary. But anyway,

uh I'm here to give our uh March report for the uh for our parks and recreation board and our first first quarter report for the farmhouse community center. That's January, February, and March. And and we were over overall happy with the numbers. Um so in that first quarter 64 hours uh which includes 12 senior resident hours and then the rest uh just regular hours and that also includes 15 resident reservations for non-resident one nonprofit for a total of $6,765. And again that was without very little marketing to to uh uh get the farmhouse uh community center out there. So, we're we're very excited since we're marketing and we've already gotten 179.5 or almost 180 hours um booked for the second quarter already going forward in April, May, and June. So, we're excited about the farmhouse and and getting that out there and getting it used. Um so, moving right along. Speaking of the farmhouse, we did discuss a draft a proposed draft for facility rental fee reduction and waiver guidelines. Again, just a guideline and and we look forward I know Ashley and Brock have introduced that to y'all and we look forward to your feedback and your direction u on that. So, uh that that's forthcoming and we appreciate that. Uh we're terribly excited. Our first music in the park is to be this Saturday. Um what is that date? Um

11th.

The 11th of April. Back porch orchestra. Uh and I did want to go over uh right briefly. It's going to be from 6:00 till 9. Food vendors start at 5:30. Um and our big sponsor, our platinum sponsors, Oakidge Commons. The gold sponsors, Health Team Advantage, uh, Ramililia Seagull with Kelly Williams, Domino's, and Deainy. And then our silver sponsor just for Saturday night is Duke Energy and the Merchants Association of Oakidge. And a special shout out uh to Philip Cook and the Dominoes folks who've been there um since our opening on the um uh sponsored event. So, we're going going into our fourth year. So, time has just flown, but they keep getting bigger and better. So, we're excited. So, um this this Saturday 6 o'clock, it guarantees to be be a good time with that. Um and, uh we also have music, not to be confused with music on the park. We have music on the lawn. That's going to be at the farmhouse community center. And it's set up to have the band set up on the on the back deck and then folks mingle around in the yard with a wheelchair. I mean, whichever would be for me, man. I'm tired.

Sign me up. Sign me up, too. Maybe tailgate chairs would be more appropriate. And anyway, that's going to be at uh that's the 40th slip. Uh May 31st from 2 to 5. And then um our other one's going to be June 26th and K9 Capers May 2nd. So remember to not forget your wheelchair. So you may need that wheelchair if you keep going over time. Okay. Finance committee. Finance committee is next. They're not here, but they're they're not here. There was a meeting. So, uh, do you want to summarize or we I mean, we we

I'll just say that they reviewed the draft capital budget and they'll have their final meeting um a week from Monday. Okay, there we go. Now, uh, water advisory committee.

Thank you. Spencer Sullivan 7917 Quiet Place Oakidge. Uh I won't be nearly as entertaining as John just was. This is kind of dry. Uh water advisory committee met on March 11th. The committee um received updates on the construction progress which is evident and proceeding uh nicely. At our February meeting uh the committee formed two working groups marketing and policy. marketing working group is working with staff to get signup information to homeowners who indicated an interest at our open houses in connecting to the municipal system. They'll also be reaching out to the larger community within within close proximity to the water main to remind them of the opportunity to connect with the tap fee waved and promoting the value and safety of municipal water. Um on the agenda this evening was the addition to the fee schedule. Thank you for approving that. I think those two items will encourage folks to connect uh sooner rather than later. The policy working groups beginning to develop both a near-term and long-term master plan to determine where the main should be run and to develop strategies to pursue extensions into subdivisions based on proximity, need, and density. We anticipate a communitywide survey will be helpful in determining this. An important part of the strategy will be to consider and explore funding options to finance those extensions. I want to note that we're taking a different path than is normally taken in expanding a municipal water system. Normally water manes are extended by developers when new subdivisions are built and the cost is incorporated into the development. Uh the town actually

has an ordinance that requires that on a limited basis. Uh but our community has largely developed before municipal water was available and existing homes are all served by wells. There's no ready template available from another municipality that we've found. So we're developing a strategy that suits our town with ways to fund that expense. And this will take a little time. Uh, one focus is to on educating our homeowners on the fragility of groundwater, its potential for contamination, and the value and safety of municipal water. Engineering work is continuing on extending the water main towards the commons to connect the center to municipal water. Discussions have been held with the county school system and their engineers are working on plans to connect the elementary school to municipal water. And both of those projects are really important because they're necessary to mitigate the PAS contamination that has been found in their water supplies uh as soon as that can be done. Um that's nice.

Thank you. Did I do it? That alarm. Did I beat the clock? Thank you. Any questions? Thanks, Spencer. Just when when do when do we expect Wooten to give us the final stretch down to the commons? Um the last I heard a week or two ago, um the the John Gray was reviewing the final plans prior to submittal to the state. I'll get an update to see if that's been if that's happened.

Okay. Because I mean park park is they're just going gang busters and it's already down almost a pepper road and hydrates are appearing uh from the ground. I don't know if that they sprung from spring or not, but I mean it's moving quickly and it would be great if we can continue that process to the uh to the uh to the commons. Okay. Uh historic preservation commission, no one here. Meet right?

Planning and zoning. Planning and zoning board. No one here. Board of adjustment. No one from Mountains to the Sea. Conservation Easement Committee. No one here. That does all the committees. Uh are there further public comments? Council, I did get a couple of committee reports because of the late hour, which I will send out to you tomorrow. What do you mean late hour? We still We're not pushing our limits yet. I'm getting ready to leave. Let's go. Don't go without being Okay, we have time for uh council comments. None.

All right. I I'll look to my friend there. When When is the Methodist Church blood mobile? I don't know if it's this week or this coming Monday. I think it's this Monday. So, if you Yeah. So, uh at least I know the Methodist church if you give blood like I do, I don't historically Jim has. Um, it is a well-run machine and it's the best best what I know about if you if you are somebody that gives blood. Any other comments? Um, the officer in the back, I didn't catch your name this evening.

Thank you so much for your service and your chosen profession, sir. Yeah. Also, I want to thank the council and the town for tolerating my absence last month um while I was on a humanitarian mission trip to Cuba. Uh contrary to what you see in the news, the Cuban people greatly respect and admire the American people and our form of government. So, just keep in mind that everything you see on CNN and Fox and everybody else ain't necessarily factual. So, thank you for the tolerance of my absence. All right, I'm I'm gonna pass. I got to go to bed. No, I'm good. I need a motion for adjournment.

Make a motion. Second. All right. All in favor? I