City Council - Regular Meeting

all right good evening and welcome to the city council norman utilities authority norman municipal authority norman tax increment finance authority and norman parking and transit authority meeting of june 9th 2026. madam clerk will you call the role council member gandisferry here finally council member peacock here still

Council Member Bruce. Here. Council Member Grant. Present. Council Member Kirby.

Here.

Council Member Hinkle.

Here before David.

Council Member Blodgett. Here. Council Member Dixon.

Here since about 145.

Mayor Holman. Here. Okay, please join me for the pledge of allegiance. It's been a long day. We just got here.

Pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic

One through five will be acknowledged with one vote.

Item one, a proclamation recognizing high school state champions in Norman Public Schools. Item two, a proclamation recognizing the Norman Public Schools Fine Arts Program. Item three, a proclamation proclaiming Friday, June 19th, 2026 as Juneteenth Day in the City of Norman. item four a proclamation proclaiming the month of june 2026 as lgbtq plus pride month in the city of norman item five a proclamation proclaiming june 22nd 2026 through june 28th 2026 as pollinator week in the city of norman i'll entertain a motion to acknowledge receipt of the proclamations motion thank you the motion on the floor is to acknowledge receipt of the proclamations council members you may cast your votes

All votes have been cast and the motion to acknowledge receipt of the proclamation passes unanimously.

All right, and I will recognize Mr. T.D. O'Hara, MPS Athletics Director, to accept the first proclamation at the podium. We also have School Board President Don Brockman here as well. And so this was born really, I think it's been talked about before in previous years, but with the Norman High boys basketball team winning the state championship this year for the first time since the 90s, it was thought, oh, we should recognize the basketball team for winning state. And then Dr. Nick, Superintendent Migliorino, Mentioned that, well, we have a lot of teams that have won state championships this year, a lot of individual athletes that have won, and we have a lot of academic state champions as well. So we came up with a proclamation that's a little bit more broad, recognizing athletes and academic achievements in this school year throughout Norman. So a proclamation of the mayor of the city of Norman, Oklahoma, recognizing high school state champions in Norman public schools. whereas the city of norman is proud to be home to outstanding students whose dedication discipline and perseverance exemplify the very best of our community and whereas throughout the 2025-2026 academic year student athletes and academic competitors from norman public schools including norman high school and norman north high school have demonstrated excellence at the highest levels of competition across the state of oklahoma And whereas we also recognize and celebrate all high school age students who call Norman home and who have achieved excellence in academics, athletics, and extracurricular activities this year, representing our community with pride in schools and programs across the region. And whereas these champions and high achieving students have committed countless hours to training, studying, practicing, and preparing supported by coaches, teachers, administrators, families, and teammates, showing that success is built through teamwork, resilience, and a relentless pursuit of excellence. and whereas their achievements bring honor and recognition not only to their respective schools but to the entire norman community serving as an inspiration to future generations of students and whereas these accomplishments reflect the strength of our public schools the commitment to both academics and athletics and the shared belief that our young people can achieve extraordinary things when given opportunity and support Now, therefore, I, Mayor of the City of Norman, Oklahoma, do hereby recognize and celebrate all 2025 and 2026 school year athletic and academic state champions from Norman Public Schools and further commend all Norman students who have excelled this school year for their exceptional achievements, leadership, and representation of our community. I encourage all residents of Norman to join me in congratulating these remarkable students and in continuing to support the programs that help them succeed. Passed and approved this ninth day of June, 2026. If you could please come up. We got a companion proclamation, actually, recognizing fine arts. Dr. Evelyn Kwanza, MPS Director of Fine Arts. It's really great to be known for athletics and academics and arts in Norman. All right, a proclamation of the mayor of the city of Norman, Oklahoma, recognizing Norman Public Schools fine arts programs. Whereas the city of Norman recognizes that the arts are an essential component of a well-rounded education and contribute significantly to the intellectual, emotional, cultural, and social development of students. And whereas the Norman Public Schools fine arts programs provide students with opportunities to explore and excel in visual arts, music, vocal music, instrumental music, theatrical arts, and dance, fostering creativity, self-expression, collaboration, and lifelong learning. And whereas participation in the fine arts develops critical thinking, problem solving, communication, discipline, and leadership skills that prepare students for success both inside and outside the classroom. And whereas the Norman Public Schools Fine Arts Program enriches the educational experience of students while enhancing the cultural vitality of the Norman community through performances, exhibitions, and artistic endeavors that bring residents together and celebrate the talents of our youth. And whereas the dedicated educators, administrators, parents, volunteers, and community partners who support fine arts education help create meaningful opportunities for students to discover and develop their artistic abilities. And whereas these achievements of Norman Public Schools fine arts students and educators bring distinction to our community and demonstrate the value of investing in arts education for future generations. Now, therefore, I, Mayor of the City of Norman, Oklahoma, do hereby recognize and commend the Norman Public Schools Fine Arts Program for its outstanding contributions to the education of students and the enrichment of our community. Passed and approved this ninth day of June, 2026.

Thank you mayor for this recognition I think we are exceedingly proud of both our athletic and our fine arts programs at Norman public schools and We know that these connections that our students make through these kind of programs are some of the most important ones and keep them in school and and keep them connected. And we know that we have the most amazing coaches and teachers that help make this a success, and I want to send some love to them as well. And I want to thank our two representatives here as well, because they are leading a fabulous program on both counts. Thank you so much.

I am a product of both Norman High Athletics and Fine Arts. The media program at Norman High was extensive. I think it still is, but I was on the school channel for two years, and that landed me a job with the OU Athletic Department for two years working for the OU football team as part of their video crew. So that opened a door for me, being on the school channel back in the day on Tiger Den, and I'm excited that Norman continues to offer those opportunities to our youth. Next up is Juneteenth, and I'll invite Myles Kelly, Henderson Scholars Program Director at OU to join me. A proclamation of the Mayor of the City of Norman, Oklahoma, proclaiming Friday, June 19, 2026, as Juneteenth Day in the City of Norman, whereas President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation on January 1, 1863, declaring that all persons held as slaves shall be free. And whereas on June 19th, 1865, Union soldiers led by Major General Gordon Granger landed at Galveston, Texas with news that the war had ended and that enslaved were now free. And whereas June 19th, known as Juneteenth, and also called Emancipation Day, is the oldest known celebration which started in 1866 commemorating the announcement of the abolition of slavery in the state of Texas and in remembrance of the day all remaining slaves acquired their freedom in the United States of America. And whereas on June 17, 2021, Juneteenth was signed into law, declaring a national holiday, and whereas 2026's national theme, Juneteenth Brings Balance to America's Celebration of Freedom, honors the joy of emancipation while recognizing the ongoing responsibility to advance fairness and equal rights. and whereas the Juneteenth Festival will take place Friday, June 19, 2026, at Reeves Park, providing a community celebration that fosters inclusion and unity, bringing together families, visitors, and local leaders in honor of this important national holiday. Now, therefore, I, Mayor of the City of Norman, Oklahoma, do hereby proclaim Friday, June 19, 2026, as Juneteenth, in the city of Norman and invite all citizens to join me in celebrating this important holiday while continuing to strive towards full equality. Passed and approved this ninth day of June, 2026. All right, and then if you'd like to say a few words.

Good evening. My name is Miles Kelly. I grew up in Dallas, Texas, and now call this community and city home. Juneteenth was never explained to me. It was a feeling. It was family. It was the sound of Earth, Wind, and Fire or Frankie Beverly and Maze being played in the front yard. It was laughter and food. It was the elders in between all of it reminding of us exactly why we were gathered. I didn't learn about Juneteenth. I was raised in the practice of honoring the memory of this historic event that symbolizes freedom, liberation, and African American resilience. So speaking here today and accepting the proclamation is personal for me and special. The black community of Galveston first celebrated Juneteenth in 1866, and then they did it again the next year, and so on and so on. For generations, long before Juneteenth was a federal holiday, and long before many folks in America were recognizing it, that community kept the date alive. Those early celebrations were not passive remembrance. They were acts of community, neighbors gathering, elders teaching children, and families affirming to one another that this day was worth honoring. The gathering itself was preservation. That persistence is the reason why we're standing here today. When we celebrate Juneteenth, we celebrate freedom, Not as an idea, but as something that was to be fought for, waited for, and then protected. It's a day for music, food, parades, and gatherings. It's also a day of honest reflection on how long that freedom was delayed and the ongoing commitment to equality and justice this country continues to be called towards. We remember because history that goes unmarked gets lost, history that gets lost gets repeated, and Juneteenth asks us to stay honest about what happened, who made it through, and what was promised to every person in this country. Recognizing Juneteenth here in Norman means we're choosing to remember accurately. It means we honor that the African-American community's resilience and contributions have a rightful place in the full story of this nation.

Thank you.

Okay. Norman Pride is receiving this. If there's any or all representatives, you're welcome to join me up here. Okay, a proclamation of the Mayor of the City of Norman, Oklahoma proclaiming the month of June 2026 as LGBTQ plus Pride Month in the City of Norman. Whereas the City of Norman is committed to fostering a welcoming and respectful community where all residents are treated with dignity and compassion. And whereas Pride Month is celebrated each June to honor the 1969 Stonewall Uprising in New York City, a pivotal moment in the ongoing struggle for LGBTQ plus rights, dignity, and equality in the United States. And whereas on June 11th, 1999, Pride Month was first officially recognized at the national level as a time to acknowledge the history, achievements, and contributions of LGBTQ plus Americans. And whereas Pride Month provides an opportunity to recognize the progress made toward greater equality and understanding, to reflect on the ongoing efforts to ensure all people are treated with fairness and respect, and to acknowledge the many LGBTQ plus individuals who continue to serve and strengthen their communities through public service, advocacy, business, education, healthcare, and the arts. Now, therefore, I, Mayor of the City of Norman, Oklahoma, do hereby proclaim June 2026 as LGBTQ Plus Pride Month in the City of Norman and acknowledge the importance of civility, inclusion, and the positive contributions made by many LGBTQ Plus individuals to the life and vitality of our city. Passed and adopted this ninth day of June, 2026.

Just wanna thank you all for the proclamation today. I think it's important that there's visibility and when the city recognizes the importance of acknowledging Pride Month and the contributions of the members of the community that contribute to this community, I think it goes a long way towards what we say in City of Norman, building an inclusive community. And when we put actions behind those words, then I think it means a lot and it helps those in the community to see that this is a place where they can build a life, thrive and flourish. And so we thank you.

All right, thank you very much. And up next, I'll invite Michelle Wadenbeck from city staff here, environmental and sustainability manager. Okay, a proclamation of the mayor of the city of Norman, Oklahoma, proclaiming the June proclaiming june twenty second through june twenty eighth twenty twenty six as pollinator week in the city of norman whereas pollinators such as bees butterflies birds and other wildlife play a vital role in maintaining healthy ecosystems and supporting agriculture farming gardening and land stewardship practices that benefit both private landowners and the broader community. Whereas approximately three-fourths of flowering plants and over one-third of our food crops rely on pollinators to reproduce, making them essential to food security and agricultural productivity. And whereas monarch butterflies are an iconic bellwether pollinator species whose populations have experienced significant declines and residents are encouraged to plant, native milkweed and nectar plants to provide habitat for the monarch and other pollinators. And whereas pollinator habitats face challenges from habitat loss and pesticide exposure and supporting their health is part of good land and resource stewardship. And whereas moths are critical, yet often overlooked nighttime pollinators, with thousands of species native to Oklahoma supporting local ecosystems and serving as important food source for birds and other wildlife. And whereas the City of Norman participates in the Pathways for Pollinators and People initiative, A community conservation effort that connects people with nature through pollinator habitat and education established in partnership with the Oklahoma Monarch Society and supported by the Kirkpatrick Foundation. And whereas the City of Norman supports partnerships that promote good stewardship of our natural resources and protect the integrity of our environment. now therefore i mayor of the city of norman oklahoma do hereby proclaim june 22nd through june 28th 2026 as pollinator week in the city of norman and encourage residents to celebrate by joining events such as the two-part composting class or the moth night at ruby grant park and to learn more about the vital role of pollinators and how we can support them passed and approved this ninth day of june 2026.

Thank you. Sorry, I'm excited. I know. Thank you, honorable mayor and council members for this proclamation. You know, Pollinator Week is actually really one of my favorite weeks. I know I say that a lot, but it really is because pollinators really do that quiet unglamorous work that we need to keep our food systems and our ecosystems healthy, right? Whoo! I'm so excited about that. And the Norman community actually gets it. And that's really what this proclamation celebrates, is that, right? And we're channeling that energy, just like Mayor Holman said, into some awesome programming this summer with the two-part composting workshop and a moth night that will actually surprise and impress everyone who comes, I promise. And that's just the beginning because, of course, the fall is full of wonderful things as well, including a 5K and a fun run that's in coordination with Monarchs in the Park, which will be held at Ruby Grant on October 4th this year. Huzzah! Come out. In the meantime, though, I do encourage everyone to get outside and look at those native plants that are being installed in your city, in our parks, along our streets, and at our facilities, including right here at City Hall. Get out and check them out, because they're beautiful, they're doing that ecological work, and they're yours to enjoy. So come out. Thank you again for this recognition, and also for Norman's commitment to making this city a place where pollinators and people can thrive. Thank you.

All right. Okay, got all those. All right, up next is council announcements and we'll start in ward one.

All right, hello everybody from the great town of Norman, Oklahoma. For those that didn't have the pleasure of coming to the study session, just a quick update. Like all of us Norman citizens know, it was a study session where we just talk on ideas and try to come up with solutions. And that wasn't a solution that we decided to come up with and go with tonight and everything. So those that might be watching home and wondering how that turned out, it was just a discussion to be had. but what i am kind of i guess disappointed in as a city councilman is the fact that that room was packed with a lot of cameras a lot of news stations were there for that and as we look around our norman meeting we don't see any new stations anymore here you know everything We also had a lot of our representatives at our state and county levels taking time out of their busy, busy election season to get online and do interviews last night and waste more of our taxpayer money and everything to save what we in Norman should or shouldn't be doing with people, with situations, and with Norman business as a whole. The mayor brought up a really good, interesting point during our discussion about how we haven't received any help from the county for the homeless situation. And unlike Oklahoma City, who Governor Stitt gave $800,000 to and is paying for 27 housing solutions for the homeless when he left there with Operation Safe, in our Tulsa community, he gave them $500,000, helped them with their situation, when he decided to come to Norman Oklahoma he came unannounced even to our mayor and staff and there was a couple of I was as a person that we all know cares about every citizen in our town no matter their financial situation everything one big problem I had personally when he came to town is I looked up some state and government laws on how do you handle an encampments and the biggest one to me is that they can't simply destroy personal belongings seized items must be usually catalog secured and stored a minimum of 30 to 90 days with his photo op in front of the bulldozer throwing everything into the dumpster we all know that did not happen here in norman oklahoma we have not received a single penny from the state to help with the solution of that problem either. Like I announced, we make $900 a month as council. I make roughly 90 or $80 a month to try to solve the problem that our state legislatures did not pass a single bill this session to help assist for the state of Oklahoma as a whole. So we are looking for every solution. We will talk through every possible option. And there's a lot of them that you haven't seen that's gone in the trash can too, but we're still going to have the conversations. Second thing on my list is homeless shelter over here on Gray Street. For those in the town that don't know and everything, we had to shut it down last night temporarily. To the person that called that in to the state fire marshal and everything, I don't know what your intentions were out of that or not. I just find it very disheartening that a business person in Norman would take the chance of having to have 60 people sleeping outside all night long. on main street basically if the city of norman would not have had a plan that worked to give them somewhere to go thankfully city of norman advocates all of our non-profits all of our church congregations and everything stepped up to the plate instantly It was literally within minutes that people were already on the phone saying, hey, we think we got this option. I want to give a huge shout out to the congregation at Presbyterian Church and especially their preacher over there, Michael East, who has offered to take those clients in and everything while we're getting the punch list done that will help us be able to move people back in over there where they deserve to be, hopefully by the end of this week. So just want to give everybody in town an update on that. If your job was to try to shut down the homeless shelter, the city of Norman's getting pretty good at trying to figure out stuff on the fly, and so that's one less thing we should have to worry about. Now, for my $90 a month of trying to solve the homeless problem, there's one way that every citizen in Norman, Oklahoma can instantly play a role and changing the financial abilities of our unhoused people instantly. Just one day, 10, 20 minutes out of your day, one stroke of a pen, you can change it. State question 832. So imagine you're that single mom Boyfriend then dumped in left and everything not stepping up to play You got that baby to take care of and everything like that and the only job you can get because you always have daycare issues or having to go take care of your baby issues and stuff like that as a $7.25 job So for two weeks before taxes and we all know how much taxes take out you're going to make five hundred and eighty dollars for the two weeks you're going to make eleven hundred and sixty dollars for the month before taxes and If you look up the median income just for a studio apartment in the city that we reside in, today it's between $800 and $1,100. That leaves literally zero money for that single mom to get food, insurance, utilities, transportation, or anything else while she's also having the worries and the mental health about how to survive with her baby. It's unacceptable in a state like Oklahoma where very many people thrive in our communities. I ran restaurants from the time I was 16 until the time I was in my mid-20s. And you always hear the same speech. Well, it's going to raise how much it costs for a burger at McDonald's. Guess what? The price of the burger at McDonald's has already been going up constantly over the last two years. That's an excuse that the big pockets want you to believe so that they could keep the little person still there and not be able to get out of their situation. So if you choose to vote yes on state question 832, instantly when that law goes into effect, 350,000 people and the state of Oklahoma will get a little over a dollar pay raise. And over until 2030, then they'll finally make $15 an hour. It has not raised in 15 years. I know I would have quit several jobs already if I didn't get a raise in 15 years to be able to afford for my family. So every citizen, Norman, that cares, this is one way you can care. Because these are the people that end up homeless when they have to choose formula or pay my electric this month and everything. Also, we got another important vote. And I'm saying this not because we don't meet again until after the election. So another big important vote for Norman, I believe, as a whole. We got a county commissioner vote. And I believe that it could be a game changer for Norman. And I know one of the candidates very personally. He's an ex-councilman for the city of Norman. He understands city of Norman's politics and budgets and where we spend money and where we need money, what we're trying to accomplish in this town. Or there's another candidate that looks by his stuff on the ethics commission, might be having or spending a lot of money that's not even in Norman on all of his campaign stuff and out of country even and stuff like that. So just take it kind, expand both of those, look at both candidates real hard, and know that one of them's a local dude, Ward 5, that's been around the block. He's also had some great discussions. There's tons of videos you can watch on him to see live in action here and see exactly how he usually talks and thinks and everything. So overall, thank you, everybody else. That's it.

Thank you. Ward 2. I'm not going to try to follow that. I'll just go ahead and second.

Council Member David Gansbury's comments, they were fantastic.

Thank you. Ward 3.

I just a couple things I'd like to say thank you for the more 3 members and those that are not I mean we're 3 by the place throughout the city appreciate the tax. You know the e-mails the calls in the face to face discussions increased perspective is is appreciated its welcome. A lot of variables were picked up that I weren't I wasn't able to pick up myself so appreciate that and then for the future I need a call on campaigning on the dice whether that's allowed or not. If you can campaign on the dice.

It did not affect the municipal campaigns, your honor.

OK, so I can campaign for anything else on the dice, state level or federal level.

I will defer to the attorney.

I would not encourage us to campaign for local races and city council and things, but I mean, it is a matter of your free speech. I would assume if you wanted to. I think we need a legal call on this.

Ethics. I'd also say that nobody mentioned the candidates' names or anything like that, so not one side or another. I'd also mention that the other one's a state question. I'm just trying to inform those at home that might not have any other means to get educated on the question what the facts are of the case.

Thank you, but still we need a legal call because I've got I've got my opinions too on on many different issues and if that's the case I. Why not I mean.

We have a provision or we had a provision. In the past it specifically prohibited Council members from. supporting or opposing candidates for office and or ballot measures. But over time, for some reason, and it's a reason that I can't really articulate for you, that seems to have gone by the wayside, where not only have we had council members specifically advocating for positions with regard to ballot measures, we've had council members specifically advocating for other council members. The difficulty with that from the perspective of staff is, Council members have a First Amendment right that the same First Amendment right as all other private citizens. So if a private citizen can advocate for or against a particular ballot measure or for or against a particular candidate, there really isn't a whole lot staff can do about that.

So you mean to tell me on the dice up here, we can campaign?

You have the same First Amendment right as any other citizen.

Well, there goes your night, right?

How you choose to exercise that First Amendment right is a decision that you'll have to make. But again, it may be something we need to revisit because I know when I first started here, nobody would have done that because again, there was that specific prohibition against that type of advocacy. But like I said before, over time, it seems as though that's kind of gone by the wayside. And again, from a staff perspective, I don't have disciplinary authority over council members in terms of what they choose to say during council announcements. Now, maybe that's something that council wants to revisit going forward.

probably not a bad idea yeah I recommend we do that no offense just so I'd love to talk about a lot of different things related to certain issues but I realize hey it's may not be appropriate

Yes, good evening Ward 4 and City of Norman. We are coming up on another second Friday this week. There will be lots of family-friendly activities and exhibitions. However, this month I want to highlight a drag series called Gossip that is regularly hosted at Opolis and other locations in Norman. It's an $8 cover. It's for the 18 plus crowd and starts right about the time the official art walk ends at nine. I also want to highlight a new book club in Ward 4 hosted by Norman Pride and the Lore called the Queer Love Book Club. It's the second Tuesday of every month and this month they were meeting at Yellow Dog Coffee. We also have the Equality Club meeting this month that will happen on Sunday at the Firehouse Arts Center. It will feature a special workshop led by Caris C., focused on queer identity, self-expression, and experimental portraiture. This two-hour workshop invites participants to create large-scale self-portraits while breaking traditional good drawing rules and embracing expression over perfection. Using oversized butcher paper and unconventional tools, Participants will explore distortion, layering, and intuitive mark-making in a fun, welcoming environment. No technical experience is needed. Participants are encouraged to bring classroom-safe materials such as sticks, leaves, cardboard, dirt, knick-knacks, and other found objects to experiment with throughout the workshop. And we just had our budget meeting at 2, and for everybody that was really wild for wild care, we did pass that. Thank you.

Thank you. Ward 5.

I'd like to do a shout out to the local Ward 5 businesses. I do not own any of these, and I am not affiliated either. Spore Plumbing, Rafter G, Electric, Kirby Cattle and Company, Horny as Hell Acres. All local Ward 5 businesses or farms that provide for our community. That would be about all I have to say right now.

Okay, I have a few campaigns to endorse before the rules change again, so I I'm just kidding. I just wanna wish all of the Norman Public School students a happy summer. I hope everyone's safe and having fun. And thank you to everyone who reached out and engaged in our discussion about the study session item that we had tonight about residential camping. Definitely not something that we could all support to move forward, but I think the exercise was worth Going through so that we could maybe learn some new things as we face some extreme Situations here in Norman in regard to that topic. Thank you.

Thank you

Yes, hello, Ward 7 and Norman. I have a few. This one was already mentioned tonight in the celebration of Juneteenth, but I just wanted to remind everyone that, yes, Friday, June 19, the Juneteenth celebration will be at Reeves Park from 6 p.m. to 10 p.m., so go check that out. and then on um i just want to go ahead and already mention this just so it's in your mind um saturday july the 4th um they'll be having the fourth fest at reeves park and that is um in celebration of america's 250th anniversary so um they're going to have live music um So you can actually, I have it pulled up here, you can get on the city's website and it has a long article about it, everything that will be included. It sounds like a lot of fun, tells you who the live music will be. So that is actually spanning over four days. So it's actually gonna be from July 1st to July 4th, different activities going on on each of those days at different places, not all at Reeves. So I know there's stuff happening at Legacy Park as well. So that sounds like a good time. And then I just wanted to give a shout out to Parks and Rec for the new park and Eagle Cliff addition. I went and checked it out this weekend with my family and my kids loved it. And so we are very appreciative of that. So that's all I have.

Thank you. Ward 8.

Thank you. It was great to see Dr. Kwanzaa here tonight. She does an absolute phenomenal job with the Fine Arts Department. And Athletic Director TD O'Hara. The list of state champions from Norman High and Norman North is extensively long. It's wonderful what they do. And great to see School Board President Don Brockman here. You talk about a thankless job. We make a whole lot more money doing this. And we're dealing with people upset that the trash cans didn't get picked up. And they're all dealing with people's kids. It's such a thankless job. Just thank you to our partners at the Norman School Board, all of them, for everything they do. And that's it for Ward 8.

All right, thank you. And I would just encourage everybody who's mentioned we had our city budget adoption meeting earlier today and that was live streamed on the City of Norman YouTube channel for anybody that's interested in watching that process. Like all of our meetings are, most of them anyway, are live streamed on the City of Norman YouTube. If you can't be here in person, you can rewatch them at any time. And so the budget meeting is on there that we had today and we did adopt the City of Norman budget for this year. And then also this Thursday is the Oversight Committee and next Thursday is Finance Committee. 4 p.m. here at City Hall. Also live streamed meetings if you're interested. Oversight discusses existing policies usually then finance we get a monthly budget update from the finance director and discuss what's going on with sales tax collections and things like that so if you're interested in those those are the ones coming up this week and next week and then also art walk coming up this Friday as councilmember grant mentioned in downtown Norman and would definitely encourage everybody to get out and support all the local businesses and shops and artists and everything during the art walk on Friday evening and then I did have the opportunity and pleasure of attending the US Conference of Mayors yearly meeting in Long Beach mayor Holt is the president of the US Conference of Mayors this past year and so he was outgoing and passing the gavel to the mayor of San Diego who will be the new one for this year and And I was there for four days and it was non-stop from 8 a.m. To about 5 p.m. Every day Bunch of different seminars and discussions going on I was texting the city manager several things that were coming up that they were recommending that we put in our city website that we share with our residents and one of them well the one of the primary topics for the entire week was absolutely housing and the cost of living every city is discussing zoning changes and updates to processes to make them more streamlined and more efficient so that housing can be built quicker and easier. And homelessness is a part of that entire discussion. And there are cities like Austin, Texas who have seen a drastic decline in the average rent in their city because of their aggressive housing policies. So everyone thinks of Austin as one of the fastest growing cities in the country, and it has been, but they got so aggressive with their housing policy that they are seeing a decline in average rent citywide in Austin. They're one of the leaders in the nation in that regard. that was a big discussion but there was one particular item that we were encouraged to share and that was a protecting residents from financial scams the role of mayors and it was a discussion about exploring how cities and financial partners are working together to prevent financial scams strengthen consumer protections and equip residents with tools to recognize and avoid fraud targeting vulnerable populations and so we had We had someone from Wells Fargo, we had the mayor of San Bernardino, the mayor of Bakersfield, California, and someone from the National Security Fraud Prevention Foundation. And they shared that there is a federal website called the Internet Crime Complaint Center, or IC3.gov, and they recommended that all cities put it on our city websites and push that out to residents to report internet crime, as in fraud and scams. And so there were multiple stories shared by mayors and other elected officials about family members and people close to them, even themselves, who had been victims of fraud. One mayor shared how her father was a very accomplished lawyer how when the kids asked him for five bucks, it was like prying a safe open, but someone got him on the phone and got him to go down to his bank, withdraw 15,000, two different banks, two different accounts, withdraw $15,000 and meet up with some random person on a street corner and gave them the money. He was convinced that something bad was going to happen to him or his family if he didn't do it. And so an accomplished lawyer, an older gentleman who was very smart and who was really tight with his money, was scammed out of something. That was just one of the stories. And so I shared that with the city managers so that we could get that website on our website. our city website and really just the mayor's role about being to spread awareness and information to residents about that type of thing and it's not just elderly residents either being in a college town there are a lot of younger folks who are susceptible to scams and all sorts of stuff as well and so they put up a number that it was 2024 losses over the last five years 2024 was sixteen point six billion dollars nationwide in losses from people being scammed and things like that and so that hopefully will be on there soon if it isn't already but that's just one of them one of the main takeaways I took from that conference it was really helpful for me as a new mayor to meet with mayors who have a lot of experience and have been doing it for a number of years in some of the biggest cities to some of the smaller cities in our country all across all 50 states and even a couple international mayors attended as well so discussing issues of homelessness and encampments and how they are dealing with them or not and all sorts of other issues of growth and development and preserving existing neighborhoods preserving the rural area but also trying to accommodate growth things like that so I found it to be very informative and once again I did drive and so it is cheaper than flying and my dad went with me so that was pretty enjoyable and I look forward to continuing that those discussions and building those relationships with other mayors and so hopefully when we come across issues in Norman we don't have to try to invent the wheel it's most likely that some other city has already attempted to address an issue they have already addressed it or they tried to and they failed and we can look at what they did wrong and things like that so I'm excited to be a member of that and I appreciate the opportunity to be there and the last two just wanted to encourage everybody to shop Norman like we talked about during the budget meeting Oklahoma we're the only state where cities operate on sales tax revenue only and so we need everybody who buys anything to buy it in the Norman city limits and if you shop at costco we need you to order it from costco and have them deliver it to norman and then we'll get the taxes off of that as well and then tell all your friends that live in noble and moore and oklahoma city that we need them to come to norman and shop also and then go back home so we don't have to provide any services but we operate on sales tax so we need you to shop norman and support all of our local norman businesses the best you can and then lastly just wanted to also encourage everybody to vote Thursday Friday and then early voting and then on Tuesday there are a number of statewide elections primary elections and a state question regarding the minimum wage but very important and you know the only votes that are counted are the ones that show up so if you don't vote then it's in my opinion very difficult to complain about the outcome So I encourage everybody to do that and exercise your rights. And that's all I've got. Thank you. All right. Consent docket. This item is placed on the agenda so that the city council, by unanimous consent, can designate those routine agenda items that they wish to be approved or acknowledged by one motion. If any item proposed does not meet with approval of all councilors, that item will be heard in regular order. Staff recommends that items 6 through 19 be placed on the consent docket.

So moved.

Second. And the motion on the floor is to place items 6 through 19 on the consent docket. Council members, you may cast your votes.

All votes have been passed. And the motion to place items 6 through 19 on the consent docket passes by a vote of 8 to 1, with Council Member Kirby voting against.

I'll entertain a motion to approve the consent docket.

Motion to approve.

Second. The motion on the floor is to approve the consent docket. Council members, you may cast your vote.

Can I ask a question real quick?

Council Member Kirby.

On item six and seven, there is not a unanimous. I thought, does it not have to be unanimous to be consent docket?

item six and seven are the first readings their first reading ordinances council member kirby and they are just a public notice there's no public discussion on them and i will defer to city attorney for further information i think you're correct that it has to be unanimous for the consent document but the difficulty that we're having with those two issues is

Because they're just for notice, people that may have wanted to come to talk about them wouldn't show up for first reading. So it's almost as this, if we're taking them off the consent docket currently and having a discussion about them, we're depriving those individuals of the benefit of the discussion because they didn't plan to be here because they understood that it was first reading.

understand that I made this in an email Friday that there was going to be issues with this item this has been this is Parkland we're talking about rezoning and it's affecting people's lives and we didn't get this information until Friday at 530 So it's kind of hard for me to be able to make them aware, just like no one reached out to me prior to putting this on the consent, being a Ward 5 Councilman, and considering the fact that people showed up to this and objected it. I got a petition with every signature around. I've got pictures showing floods. And then this is a change. It's not just re-approving something that's been, they are moving parkland, parkland that we protect. I have it printed right here, exactly what Parkland is used for. So I know it's not a discussion, but too many times we have moved stuff through this council without addressing the issues. And then once the issues are addressed, it still gets moved through the council, and then residents live with the consequences of not asking enough questions. I was elected to ask questions, even the hard ones. Once again, I made everybody aware, staff-wise, that this item was going to be an issue on Friday. So I want to know what we need to do. I get it, they didn't show up, but that is, that's just tough. I mean, I don't, people's lives are being affected. And I believe everybody should have a right when your property that you've owned for over 30 years and all your neighbors who have owned their properties for 30 years, and something is going to be changed with the, Swipe of a pen. It is our duty to be able to look into it, especially when it involves parklands, which is our recharge zone, which fills our aquifer. So... I'm gonna be a no on this even though they didn't show up because I do not support it because I do not feel like we had the proper amount of time to look at all the zoning change and the parkland change and where the water's flowing and how many times it's been changed since 2001. Every one of us in Ward 5 follow a 65% or 75% land rule and they're supposed to be permanent to where stuff like that don't get changed and we're trying to change parkland.

Council Member, I definitely understand where you're coming from. This item is the notice that you're asking about. This notice is people that two weeks at our next council meeting, there will be a hearing on this item. The developer will have to present their case. We'll be able to ask questions. There'll be public comment, and then we'll vote on whether to approve it or not.

Once again, though, this is going to affect somebody's life forever, so why does it have to be? Can't they explain it to us right there in that room on all the changes and why they made the changes and what they're doing to our parkland versus just rushing it through to the next council and hoping it'll pass?

think they went through redevelopment they went through Planning Commission and then the next step is that they come to council for our consideration it is possible as a council member that we're the area that they're wanting to do their project if you wanted to reach out to them and express your concerns of them and that you would prefer postponing it or having an additional meeting about it, they might be up to that. If they aren't, then they can come to the next council meeting and take their chances with whether we would approve it or not.

I'm just going to die on this Hill that I'm a no until they come in front of us and explain these Parkland issues in these pictures and all the flooding that could be caused by it because as a person who is suffering this kind of thing from developments and as somebody who's worked in the construction industry for years and seen the damages it does to homeowners when we do not do our job and make sure everything is adequate. It is harder to come back and fix it after the problem becomes a problem. Once again, I'm going to be a no on this. I've been saying I was going to be a no on it for three days. Nothing changed, especially after I've seen this paperwork. and the different changes made throughout time. Yes, it was approved by a previous council. I respect previous council's approvals when it's something that just hasn't been changed but has been expired. This is changes that will affect residents who are lifelong residents and will have to live with the impacts of what will happen if we make this wrong choice. This is nothing personal. This is everything to do with my 30 years of construction experience in this town and all the problems we have had to deal with by ignoring and thinking it'll just get solved by the next meeting. We just went through that with the transfer station and eminent domain and now that property is humming. I mean it's loud and not one person has went out and made sure that code was enforced and everything was taken care of as it went and that water was draining and residents have suffered from it. So I'm gonna be a no on this and I was pretty sure it had to be a full unanimous decision, but I'm gonna remain a no on this until the builder chooses or the people who represent him to come in and discuss the flow of water and the parkland. We protect parks. We passed the 2020 aim plan. We passed the 2045 aim plan. And in that, parks and parkland was supposed to be protected. It wasn't supposed to have a five-year, 10-year, or 15-year expiration date. It was supposed to be protected. And I feel like we're taking way more green space and not enough And we're leaving room for water. And everybody can tell me the houses are going to be running to the back and all the water is going to run to the road. But you're adding more rooftop. You're adding more concrete. You're taking away runoff space and absorption space. And we're not taking that into effect. And I'm going to be a no.

And here's my recommendation. You should request that those items be removed from the consent docket. I did. And then, I mean, it has to be voted on. So you can ask that those items be removed from the consent docket. Once they're removed from the consent docket, you can vote on the rest of the consent docket if there's not an objection to any other items, and then council can vote on that item for first reading in line with the other provisions. And if it's off the consent docket, it does not have to be a unanimous vote. And again, I understand what you're saying, and I'm not trying to say that, I'm trying to, it's a procedural issue. It's not a substance issue. It's just procedure. First reading is simply notice of giving the public notice of at the next meeting, we're gonna consider the substance of this particular provision. that's why on first reading you don't have anybody making a presentation you don't have the developer here that can answer questions because it's just notice that's all it's just us saying hey at the next meeting we're going to consider the substance of this particular provision but the path forward now in terms of the consent docket is request the item be removed and it can be voted on separately from the other matters that there does not appear to be any dispute about

Can they be postponed? Does it have to be removed, or can it just be voted to be postponed?

Once it's removed, you could make a motion asking that the item be postponed. But again, that would be voted on as any other item would be voted on.

I can look out in this room, and everybody whose life's going to be affected by it who signed the petition, they did take the time to show up.

I understand that, but there may be other people out there that would have come to speak on the matter that aren't here because they were understanding that this was just noticed.

Well, then I move to remove it from the consent docket, items six and seven.

Okay, just so we can clean this up, Council Member Kirby, we'll need a motion to reconsider the consent docket, and then we can move on to your request.

Make a motion to reconsider the consent docket. Second.

So let's just get this on the record correctly, OK? So the motion on the floor, clear this. The motion on the floor is to reconsider the consent docket. You may vote. Rick, does this have to be unanimous to reconsider the consent docket?

No. Good question.

Sorry, I haven't had this happen.

Good question. Okay.

So this passes by a vote of eight to one with Council Member Hinkle voting against. So now... Councilmember Kirby, would you like to make a motion to remove items 6 and 7 from the consent docket?

Yes, I would like to make a motion to remove items 6 and 7 from the consent docket.

Do I have a second? Second. Thank you.

Okay.

So now the motion is to remove items 6 and 7 from the consent docket. You may vote. Okay, that passes unanimously. Now we'll take a motion to place items eight through 19 on the consent docket.

So moved.

Second.

Sorry, gonna be a little slow.

So the motion on the floor is to place items eight through 19 on the consent docket. The vote passes unanimously. Now we'll need a motion to approve items 8 through 19 on the consent document. Motion to approve. Second. Thank you. All right. Motion passes unanimously. So the consent docket has been approved. Items eight through 19. And we will start with item six.

So the action here is just whether to vote to notify the public that in two weeks they'll be a hearing if we vote no then they'll still be a hearing in two weeks but we just won't be notifying anybody We can't we can't do that for our Charter Mayor Have a vote on it for second reading Unless you put an emergency clause in it we have ten days

correct ordinances have to lay over for at least a week before you can consider the substance of them that's why first reading second and third reading first reading is notice it has to lay over for a week before you can have any discussion on the subject so

Can I motion to postpone until the builders can be here to address the concerns and questions I have?

The builders would be here in two weeks at the next meeting. I get that. But they won't come to the first reading because it's just a notice.

Then it's going to be hard to get past, ain't it?

Your Honor, I could email the applicant representatives and see if I could get them here for you.

That would be great. Or you can give them my phone number. I will meet them any day of the week and have this conversation.

Staff can work on that.

But first reading doesn't require a unanimous vote. Correct.

Gunner to the rescue.

Representing the applicant, I think.

Kirby Gunner-Joyce with Rieger Souther-Joyce. I do believe and have texted to confirm our office is affiliated with this item. Your questions seem like directed towards the engineering and the stormwater Is that correct?

Yes, and the parkland, and moving about the parkland. I mean, I have a lot of questions.

A whole lot. Completely understand that. I, unfortunately, am not prepped or brief on that item, so I can't speak intelligently on that tonight. We're happy to meet with you, and as Mayor Holman said, that typical process would be a full-on substantive hearing in two weeks, along with everybody on the development team, the engineers, and all the background data, It's not uncommon at all for those types of hearings to go till midnight, 2 a.m., 3 a.m., get postponed. I know not trying to say that should happen, but that second reading is where the substantive debate really takes place. We're happy to connect you with the engineers, connect you with that. I'll reach out. I do have your contact information. I'll do that right now from the back.

I believe in building like your neighbor lives next door, so I would like these answered before we move forward because it will have an impact on the neighbors. Understood, Council Member. Thank you.

Okay.

Any postponement to what date, Council Member?

Do you know how long your staff would take to be able to?

I apologize. I can't speak on behalf of any of the development team here. I know that everyone was prepared and lined up for two weeks from now. It is very possible. And again, I know this has been said, and if it is a non-starter, it's a non-starter, but in two weeks, everyone will be ready for that. We usually meet beforehand and can do that pretty much anytime in the next two weeks before that meeting. If you, are not satisfied with the answers and feel more time is needed. Typically, like some of the items on tonight, we, the applicant, will request to postpone unilaterally before that final vote. That'll take place on items, I believe, 20 and 21 tonight. So I would imagine if you are still of the mindset that the information has not answered the questions, the applicant will themselves postpone. And if not, then we can do that as well. I'm kind of in uncharted territory here. I think that a more appropriate time to discuss when and how long a postponement would be in two weeks, but I do understand and I hear your comments tonight, Council Member.

Does it need to be on another meeting like this?

Yes, sir. It needs to be on a regular meeting, so we could do June 23rd.

That would work.

If that's where you want to postpone it to. That's just fine. So I would just.

And that would be for first reading.

Yeah, you'd have to go back to first reading, as it is today.

But in that case, they wouldn't be presenting the same day.

Correct, but he would be able to meet with them in between.

So you want to meet with them before we do the first reading?

Absolutely, please. And I can get with them before the 23rd, if he can make that work. I can get with you any day.

Okay. Councilman Peacock is on the thing, and I've seen Grant and Councilman Peacock.

I was just going to recommend the same steps that Mr. Joyce laid out. I think approving the first reading tonight, Council Member Kirby can vote no tonight. That gives him two weeks to meet with the attorney and their team. If he's still not satisfied, then we can postpone at that point. But I think keeping first reading intact tonight would be the traditional thing to do.

Council Member Grant?

No, I just had the question about the date certain.

Okay. Council Member Bruce?

uh councilman kirby i i understand totally you know i struggle with this and i you know it's okay i gotta get in alignment with the planning committee as far as when they're meeting what are they discussing is there anything going on in my award who's for on my award that sits on the planning mirror they give me notice what's happening sensitive issue and help prime that pump so I'm at least aware what's going on before it hits first reading. And before I get that package on a Friday night that I really don't read until Sunday night or Monday morning, and then I'm behind the power curve. And it's a frustrating thing. I get it. But first reading, once again, is just a notice. But in my situation, I'm still behind. I'm behind. I haven't understood all the variables that are associated with this package.

And it is frustrating, I agree with you. I read every email I get, so this would have been made aware a week ago. It would have been a lot easier to go over it. But I believe if we're gonna pass ordinances and if we're gonna push plans like the AIM plan that say we protect our parkland, and once something's made parkland, it stays parkland forever, then I think we need to talk about this.

So my recommendation is your opinion, and I haven't worked this out. I have not worked this out myself because it's difficult. The person that represents your ward that's on that planning committee, they have a duty to their council member, and that's a discussion. Hey, this is a sensitive issue that's going on in your ward. Are you aware of it? I want you at this meeting, and anyone you think needs to go to this meeting on the planning commission on this subject.

They know I was against this. Everybody showed up at that meeting and was against this. Not one person has had an answer that they have asked answered. They have hired a third-party engineering group, and they want the engineering group to sit down with these engineers before we go and start voting on stuff because if anything needs changed, it resets everything. So if we do a vote tonight to move it forward and then they make changes then, it's just a whole other cluster. And once again... time and time and time again something has been missed and i don't think it's out of the place to ask to go back and take an hour or whatever it takes out of our lives to make sure this does not impact six or more residents for the life when they've already owned their properties for over 30 years we were elected to read everything and make sure it stays and follows policies and guidelines. And when we start rezoning parkland, I can pull up every rule that it says what parkland is for. And nowhere in that rule does it say residential. And I understand we're moving the park, but by moving the park, we're dumping a whole lot of water on residents. And like I said, this is an impact that will happen. And in order to get stuff fixed, you've got to hire lawyers, and it's a lot of money, and it's a lot of time. And we were elected to sit here right now, and if we can prevent this by just postponing it and getting the answers we need before we move it forward to a second reading, then it makes us look like responsible stewards of our community instead of somebody who's just trying to rush something through because we don't want to take the time to address that there might be a problem.

So no argument there so really your second reading is really where I mean really where the rubber meets the road when it comes to hey we need to stop this because I've gone through my planning committee I've understood what's going there we've had those discussions they know our issues they know our our concerns first readings just notice and then boom hey it's final reading it's on And so when it's on, you've got to be educated. You have to be educated no matter who is up here in their ward related to that item and ask the tough questions.

Council Member Kirby, there's a lot of discussion. It is up to you on what your motion is, and then we can see if it will get a second and take a vote.

I still move to postpone it. I owe that to my residents who have reached out. Once again, if the rest of the council wants to say no and just push this on through and ignore ordinances that we have passed, then fine. I'll second it.

Motion to postpone first reading to June 23rd. You may vote. And this is for item six, ordinance 2526-58. Oh, I'm sorry. 2526-48. Motion to postpone passes by a vote of eight to one with Councilmember Dixon voting against. Now we'll move to item seven. Council Member Kirby, are you wanting to do the same?

Same. I'd like to postpone it until the same date, the 23rd.

Second. For first reading?

For first reading.

Yes, sir. You may vote. Passes by a vote of eight to one. Councilmember Dixon voting against.

All right. Let's see. Items 20 and 21 have been postponed to June 23rd by the applicant. Item 22. Awarding acceptance, approval, rejection, amendment, and or postponement of PP-2526-17 preliminary plat for Delisi North, generally located 1,800 feet north of Rock Creek Road on the east side of Flood Avenue. I'll entertain a motion to approve or reject the preliminary plat.

Motion to approve.

Is there a representative of the applicant here to make a presentation?

Yes.

Okay.

We've been here a long day. We've been here since about 1.30.

Yeah, I've been here since even before that.

Pursuant to the city's ethics ordinance, I have an actual professional conflict on this item because I've worked professionally on it. So therefore, I need to recuse. But I still plan on making the presentation on behalf of the applicant.

All right.

So I need a motion to allow Councilmember Peacock to recuse from item 22. allowing council member peacock to refuse to make a presentation thank you

good evening council members matt peacock here with peacock design representing applicant cradle investments uh... with me tonight as our civil engineer steve rollins in the audience in case you guys have any questions regarding the engineering project uh... we're here tonight really for a pretty simple item this is just a preliminary plat on an unpalleted piece of property uh... you can see there this is located approximately uh... northwest of flood and rocky creek road The property is currently zoned C2. It will remain C2. We're not seeking a rezoning. It's surrounded by I-2 to the east of the tracks, A-2 to the west of the tracks, but that A-2 is actually the airport. So it's not technically A-2. It was just never rezoned because it was never brought into the city's zoning ordinance. The aim 2045 future land use is JC Job Center and the character area is corridor. This is a closer look at the site. The pictures on the right are looking north and looking south along Flood Avenue. The preliminary plat here is shown on the screen. Again, a very pretty simple project, 4.32 acres. You'll see on the northwest portion of the site is partial coverage of what is currently stream planning corridor, but as soon as this property becomes platted, that will transition to water quality protection zone, WQPZ. South of the property, you'll see there's actually a runway protection zone from the airport that is outside of our property boundaries, but I thought it was relevant to show. And this is the site plan for the property. We're proposing five buildings. They will be office warehouse use, 113 parking spaces on the site. There will be 51% impervious area coverage and 14 new trees proposed along Flood Avenue. The entrance and exit will be on Flood, and there will actually be a shared access drive with a parcel to the south that will contain two additional office warehouse buildings. This is just a zoom out view showing kind of the surrounding context. You'll see that about 90% of the properties around here outside of the airport, they're already office warehouse and all of that office warehouse is allowed by right in I-2 and C-2 zoning classifications. We had a traffic impact analysis done on this property. They are recommending no traffic control or roadway improvements as a result of this development. We had nobody show up at pre-development. We had unanimous planning commission. And with that, I will take any questions.

Are there any comments from council regarding this item? Council Member Bruce?

I'm going to get educated here on the no-fly zone or protection zone for flying for the airport at South. Yes. And so that just hit me kind of strange. Can you go back to your chart? Yes. I'm trying to get educated here. Just interest in more than anything best by my past. Why would that be a protected zone and the property north of it wouldn't be when it's closer to the complex?

If I didn't provide an aerial, but if you zoom out, you can see the runway actually aligns I don't know that I have a great image up here to show you, but essentially that dashed line is part of a big trapezoid that goes out from the end of the runway. And so basically you're not allowed to have any development within that triangle for height reasons, for occupancy reasons. Basically that is reserved as a protected airspace for the airport.

Yes, just for transparency Well, there are some public improvements for this property. I think stormwater is some of that Could you speak to the stormwater and all?

I'm actually gonna turn it over to mr. Steve Rollins because I don't want to belabor the point too much. So I

Good evening, Steve Rollins, Arc Engineering Consultants, 135 Deer Creek Road. I'd be happy to answer any questions regarding storm sewer that you may have. Just in general, there is, as Matt mentioned, WQPZ that will be dedicated on the north side of the property. That will stay untouched, and nothing will be built in there. Nothing will be done in there at all. uh... detention will be provided just outside that area on the north east side of the property there part of the property drains to the north part of the drains to the south so the other south half will be detained in the future development on the south side and then there's also like in the staff report the sanitary sewers portion of that looks like that will be installed Yes, it's actually under construction right now. It's coming from the east side of the tracks, and it will be board underneath the railroad tracks to provide service for this track and future tracks to the south.

Okay, perfect. Thank you. Okay, any other questions?

Council Member Kirby?

would just ask a question about the billboard you billboard so that was in our earlier request when we were seeking to rezone the property we've since dropped that rezoning request so there's no billboard so you're not just trying to keep it traditional to what was around there not very digital that's just been removed right yeah no billboard at all okay thanks just follow up just

SO PROPERTY TO THE SOUTH, PROPERTY TO THE SOUTH, SO YOU CAN BUILD THERE AS LONG AS IT'S NOT SO HIGH SINCE IT'S IN THE TRAPEZOID AREA?

AS LONG AS IT'S OUTSIDE OF THAT TRAPEZOIDAL AREA. SO THERE'S NOT A LOT THAT IS OUTSIDE OF THAT. I THINK THAT'S WHY THESE PROPERTIES HAVE REMAINED UNPLATTED, UNDEVELOPED AS LONG AS THEY HAVE. THEY'RE, I'LL BE HONEST, KIND OF DIFFICULT PARCELS. THERE'S QUITE A BIT OF CHALLENGES, BUT WE THINK WE'VE GOT A PRETTY GOOD PROJECT THAT ALIGNS WITH THE CONTEXT OF THE AREA. THANK YOU.

Okay. All right. Let's see. Okay. And this is an opportunity for members of the public to make comments regarding this item. Remarks should be directed to council only. Once public comments have concluded, council may choose to answer your questions. Madam Clerk, are there any speakers registered for this item?

Yes, Mayor. Stephen Ellis. Marguerite Larson.

I'm not very good at directions. And so I travel a lot on flood. And I've noticed that there has been one lane closed off coming from Oklahoma City back to Norman. So my question is, is this where this is located? Since I have no directions, I don't know. But I just don't know what kind of an impact this is going to have on travel. and what kind of an impact this is going to have on a community that actually lives around it. So my concern is that overdevelopment and not enough resources to supply it.

So that's it. Thank you. Thank you. I believe this is located between Flood Avenue and the railroad tracks just north of Rock Creek Road. And that construction you mentioned, I believe, is related to the expansion of the runway in the airport. But it's in that general area.

I didn't know if you were done. Yeah. OK. Floyd Carroll.

Not seeing Floyd.

OK. That's all I have on this.

All right, anyone else from the audience who has not spoken on this item that would like to speak about it? Seeing none, okay. The motion on the floor is to approve the preliminary plat. Council members, you may cast your votes.

All votes have been cast and the motion to approve the preliminary plat passes unanimously with Council Member Peacock recusing.

All right, item 23 is consideration of approval, rejection, amendment, and or postponement of contract K-2526-175 with Sooner Fashion Mall LLC providing for the rebate of certain sales tax revenues as reimbursement for certain property costs expended by Sooner Fashion Mall over a five year period. I'll entertain a motion to approve or reject the contract. I would like to recognize Assistant City Attorney Catherine Walker to make a presentation.

Good evening. Okay. Um, this has been, uh, discussed a few times before council. And I wanted to review that, uh, just real briefly before we get into the details of the proposal, uh, back in March, we talked about, uh, this proposal coming forward, uh, for sooner mall sooner mall has been around since 1976, uh, in mostly its current, uh, footprint that the Dillard space was added in 1989. and then Dillard's purchased 9 1⁄2 acres of the mall site in 2000. It was last renovated in 1999-2000 timeframe, but it has about 500,000 square feet of retail space with over 40 retailers and three anchor tenant spaces. Two of those are filled, JCPenney and Dillard's, and then, of course, the former Sears parcel is there and has been vacant since mid-2019. It's owned by the parent company, General Growth Properties, which also operates Quail Springs Mall in Oklahoma. And the mall approached us some time ago requesting rebate of sales tax generated to reimburse for certain property costs. We actually initially brought this to EDAP, I think in November, and the deal points changed significantly as negotiations continued. And so we brought this to council in March and then to EDAP after that. In March, we talked about how the city has an economic development incentives policy. When you look at the history of this policy, it was adopted back in April of 2013. The previous summer, the city had created the Norman Economic Development Authority, which was a public trust vehicle for economic development incentives. And we did that in partnership with NEDC at the time. to provide mainly a vehicle for financing or other incentives for economic development in the area of quality jobs. So the whole idea was to bring quality employers into Norman. And so you see there in that second bullet the focuses of that policy. they're really focused more on quality jobs and bringing employers in. It does recognize sales tax rebate as an economic development tool, but as I said, the policy's primary focus was the incentives related to quality job opportunities. After council at that time created the Norman Economic Development Authority, They said, we need an Economic Development Advisory Board to advise us on how we might use this trust to give incentives to employers. And we need a policy for the Economic Development Advisory Board to follow. I think Council Member Hinkle may have been one of our first members of EDAB way back when. EDAPs only discussed a sales tax rebate once before and that was for Costco. We never actually got to the table with Costco but we knew they were looking at sites and we wanted to be ready and so we had some pretty preliminary discussions about what that might look like but it never really went anywhere. So this is our first sales tax rebate in this structure for the city to formally consider. And that incentives policy that lists some criteria that are mandatory, but most are advisory. It was built with flexibility so that we could be flexible depending on the proposal that came forward. We wanted to recognize that not all proposals are gonna meet every single criteria, but there might be quality proposals that do meet some. Through the evaluation process, it envisioned the proposal coming from the applicant for the incentive or through NEDC and providing the city with information to analyze those impacts of the project. It required a performance agreement and required some clawbacks, some consequences if the goals are not met, and ongoing monitoring of the project to ensure compliance. At that time, the incentives we had on the table, I think, available to the city included University of North Park TIF, which had and still has a little bit of funding for economic development, and then some quality jobs funds at the state level and some industrial access money, things like that, so very traditional quality job QUALITY EMPLOYER RELATED INCENTIVES. WHEN YOU READ THROUGH IT, IT'S PRETTY EASY TO SEE THAT IT'S NOT ENVISIONED FOR SALES TAX. AND I THINK WHEN WE TALKED IN MARCH, I TOLD YOU EDAB I THINK WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO LOOK AT A RETAIL INCENTIVES POLICY IF THIS IS SOMETHING THAT COUNCIL WANTS TO DO MOVING FORWARD TO KIND OF GIVE US SOME PROCESS FOR THESE TYPE OF REQUESTS. SO SOONER FASHION MALL, YOU CAN the visitation. Dropped, you know, it's risen since 2018, but you can certainly see that 2020, uh, had an, an effect. I'm sorry. I'm looking at the blue line. That's Parkway Plaza at noble gray line is sooner mall hit a high of between three to three and a half million visitors in 2018. And has been dropping, uh, course of more staggering drop in 2020 with COVID-19 and the closures with that, but still remaining pretty steady these last three years, not seeing a big increase or decrease. This shows visits as well, and this is from our cell phone data that Sarah Kaplan can pull. Very similar visitation to Parkway Plaza and Sooner Mall. Under the proposed terms that you all discussed in March, the mall would receive up to 100%.

City Attorney Walker, just to clarify for those watching, when you talk about plaza, you're talking about Ed Noble Park. Sorry, yes. Just because that's how I know everybody knows it. Yeah, you're right.

I'm sorry. The mall under this proposal would receive up to 100% of the new non-dedicated sales tax revenue. So that's 2.3%. generated on the mall property as reimbursement for property costs. So the mall would have to expend some money on property costs, which are defined in the agreement, in order to earn the incentive. But they would also have to generate enough sales tax to exceed that three-year average baseline, which is one point. At the time in March, we thought it was 1.5. It's 1.68 now, million. They'd have to exceed that. and incur these property costs first in order to receive the rebate. At that time in 2025, we thought the potential rebate was gonna be around 60, I'm sorry, in March, we thought the potential rebate for 2025 would be around 60,000. We've been comparing store lists and things like that, and so we've got some different numbers that you'll see in this agreement. But the terms are substantially the same, maximum of 300,000 per year, initial term of five years with options for renewal of two additional three-year terms, And then you can see there on the screen, and this matches the agreement, the property cost, what would be included and considered for incentives. So all capital investment costs for improvement of property or to draw new tenants, excluding routine maintenance. And there's some examples there and in the agreement. New sales tax does not include businesses that relocate from elsewhere in Norman to the mall property. So if that were to happen, we would exclude them from the calculation for new sales tax. This is the site we're talking about. It includes what we traditionally think of as the mall property and also Longhorn Steakhouse and the area where you'll typically see a garden center crop up in the spring adjacent to Main Street. at that march meeting uh... there was general support on council for the idea of considering a sales tax rebate to Sooner Mall but you all asked for the feedback from EDAP so EDAP met the following day and they adopted the motion on the screen unanimously this is also in your memo and was provided to council by email i think on march eighteenth but they had some concerns about the impact of the agreement on other property owners Including at this year's anchor is sold to another retailer. They had concerns about issuing a 100% rebate Just because of the discussion that's been going on in the community most recently with the Rock Creek Entertainment District they were favoring more of a 50-50 split or some other split where you might front load more of the rebate and then decrease it over time and Council discussed this again on March 24th, and then later that evening voted to approve the term sheet as proposed by the mall unanimously. And this agreement is consistent with that term sheet, with the exception of the update to the baseline number. So again, the mall would receive up to 100% of new non-dedicated sales tax revenues. The baseline is 1%. $1,688,847, so anything generated over that for the mall property, as shown on that map, would allow them to receive a rebate provided they incur capital costs first. This is for the term of five years, it maxes out at $300,000 per year, and the property cost definition is the same. It also still does not include businesses that relocate from elsewhere in Norman to the mall property. I thought it might be helpful to walk through some rebate scenarios. Um, the baseline, I told you the general fund portion was 1.6 million. That's represents $72.5 million in total sales on the mall property. That generates almost $3 million in sales tax, and you can see how it gets apportioned. And that blue column is really what we're talking about, siphoning off some of that growth to be the sales tax rebate. So to get a $50,000 rebate, the mall would have to generate about $2.2 million more in sales. To get $100,000... That math is not right. $100,000, it would be... 78 million in sales and so on. You can see there to earn the full $300,000 that's allowed for in the agreement, they would have to generate about $13 million more in sales. That would generate just a little under $2 million for the general fund portion, and then you can see the remaining dedicated sales tax sources would continue to go to those programs, Capital, PSST, Norman Forward, and Transit. I thought that might be helpful to kind of see what it would take to earn the incentive. We did look at the 2025 numbers, and they do not earn the incentive. Based on 2025 sales tax, they fell about $168,000 short of earning the incentive, but we'll continue, if council adopts this, we'll continue to look at that on an annual basis and make sure we have all the right stores and all those things and bring that back to council each year for an appropriation. So with that, I'm happy to answer any questions.

Okay, open it to see, are there any comments from council regarding this item? Is the buttons working or no? I'll just start at the end and come since the buttons aren't working. Council Member Peacock.

I just had a question. So the numbers that we see on the screen right now, those are above and beyond the $300,000 rebate, right? So when we're saying there's 1.968 to the general fund,

No, that would be the general fund portion of the sales tax. Of that, they would be allowed to get $300,000 in rebate. That's what I want to clarify.

Thank you. Council Member Bruce.

Just a series of questions. So you mentioned retail, retail, but when I think about the general growth property group, they're in the business of running space. I don't care if you're retail, I don't care if you're a service, if you're a professional and you want to live in the mall and this is the service I'm going to provide. I don't care. I'm in the business of Leasing space, and I'm trying to fill that building so there's revenue coming in. So why do we, I keep hearing retail.

Well, there are users in the mall now that don't generate retail sales tax because they're providing services or things that are not taxable. The reason we're focused on the sales tax and the retail is, or on the retail is because it generates sales tax and that's where the city sees the benefit of entities like the mall.

But they're in the business of releasing space. I want to consider them a retailer, though. You know what I mean? Right. Okay. The other thing I want to get straight in my mind is that this policy, this R-1213-127, it's a policy for EDAP to follow.

Yes. Okay. It was designed for EDAP to use. It's also informed council decisions, you know, or would be used to inform council decisions, I would think, because you'll be reviewing what EDAP reviews. Yes.

It was policy.

But it's policy, yes.

Okay, all right. So what does that mean in my mind when I compare that to something else like an ordinance? I think of an ordinance as a must do, must have, it's shall.

Right, an ordinance is legislative and is a must do typically. You would look at it that way. Resolution policy is a little bit easier to change. Council has the discretion whether to follow its policy.

But as I said this policy really doesn't address retail sales incentives No other questions right now I was curious with the when edubs talking about doing a retail specific policy What is how long could that process take? I?

I think it would probably take two or three meetings minimum. We'd probably want to start with looking at what other cities are doing and what their policies look like and then start crafting, much like we do things here, take a meeting to start getting feedback on what do you like about this, what do you not like, and then crafting something that they can vote on.

And then some of the criticisms I've heard that I think the policy mandates some actions but has advisory criteria for others was that the mall did not present their impact study to us. And as I understand that, is that like an advisory criteria, not in the mandatory?

It's not in the criteria portion of the...

of the resolution or of the policy.

It's, I don't think, let me look. It's in the... Evaluation process, it lists a number of things that an applicant, a company designed to receive incentives must submit to the city manager.

Okay, so I'm reading it. Thank you for pointing out some evaluation process. The applicant must provide sufficient information to allow staff and or the Norman Economic Development Advisory Board or independent firm where appropriate to conduct an analysis of the direct and indirect economic impacts of the project.

UM DID WE I GUESS DID CITY MANAGER GET THEM SO UM EVERYTHING THAT WAS PRESENTED TO STAFF WAS PRESENTED TO COUNCIL DURING THE STUDY SESSIONS AND BASED ON THE NATURE OF THE PROPOSAL IT RELATIVELY SIMPLE IN TERMS OF WHAT WAS PROPOSED BASED ON GROSS SALES on the green area of the map and about half our discussion was related to the nature of the investment that would qualify for reimbursement through the agreement including capital improvements so not not a function of we're going to use this money to get current on deferred maintenance but things that we actually have to invest in to get capitalized and depreciated over time we spent as much time talking about those investments as we did in terms of the economic impact sales we looked at gross sales for the mall property pre-COVID, post-COVID, the last three years average, and looked at what type of investment might be required to recover and get the mall back to a pre-COVID status. We did look at retailers in the mall and other businesses that do not generate retail sales tax revenue. We looked at local businesses Single storefront retailers versus regional retailers that you see in in mall properties. And there's a number of those store names that you would all recognize. what they generate per square foot in retail sales versus what a local retailer may be able to generate, a $4 million regional sales tax generator versus a $400,000 local retail sales tax generator in that same mall footprint. So not a lot of detailed analysis because the proposal is relatively straightforward.

OK. That was just my question about process. Thank you.

Councilmember Hinkle.

Policy if it does end up being approved would this be something that could be used as a blueprint essentially by other businesses of different sizes so if they wanted to pursue a similar rebate for infrastructure or something along those lines based off new generated sales tax they could apply for it too?

Sure, it'll end up being whatever EDAB and council desires it to be, but I think that's certainly possible.

So right now it's the mall, so we'll call the mall a business district because it houses a lot, but if there was another business district that wanted to get together and apply for the same kind of activity or another independent business that wanted to bring more people into their business and they were expecting growth and increase in revenue, they could apply to get a rebate back on that, essentially using this as a blueprint.

Yeah, this could be used for that. There's also other things that could be used similar to how when we did this policy initially, we were looking at quality job incentives and things like that available at the state level. We can look at other things that are available for retailers or other businesses in Norman that are not necessarily quality job incentives.

So and to councilmember Hinkle's point one of the things that we did review with council and study sessions are similar policies in Metro communities where our neighbor to the north the city of Moore has done several such agreements to secure retailer of choice in a specific footprint and it was a thing council had previously discussed if you have an underperforming shopping center or a strip mall with a big vacancy how could council influence the potential end-user that council felt was most advantageous to the community it could be a scenario where you've got a food desert in a particular neighborhood and there's a vacant storefront that met the criteria for a grocery store, you could potentially use the same vehicle to incentivize a grocery store to help close that food desert in that particular neighborhood. So there's a lot of application to the very same model.

And only giving them rebate based on the new money they generate. Agreed.

Council Member Gansberry?

Yes, sir, thank you. If you can, just piece me with a couple of questions and everything so that my child at home watching this can get an economics lesson and learn how things work. If I, Joe Blow, go to El Chico tomorrow to eat dinner and they collect my state and local taxes, at the end of the month they send that off to...

Oklahoma Tax Commission.

And then the state of Oklahoma sends us as a municipality our share for our local tax of that money, correct?

Yes. It takes them about two months, but we do get it.

Yeah. And each individual retailer slash non-retailer within the mall all does that same process, correct?

Yes. They are all required to obtain a sales tax permit from the Tax Commission and remit their monthly sales taxes. Got you.

The problem that I have is if I, Joe Blow, go into an establishment and I pay my sales taxes and the person collects my sales taxes and they do the good Samaritan thing that they're supposed to do by business, I have a hard sticking point that we're going to turn around and give the same person that they have to pay rent to a check. You know, that's kind of, some people say in the past that's kind of how business was done where, you know, certain people got a little bit more off the top or whatever like that. And when we initially brought this up, I remember asking for less than the 100% based on the fact that we had in the arena at the time that was a hot topic that 11,000 people said no to 100% or at least wanted to say no to 100%. And you mentioned that EDAB said, you know, 50-50 split would have been more of their line also. So it's disheartening that that 100% stayed throughout the process without taking any of those recommendations.

We had negotiated through some of those issues earlier on. Yes.

I understand the city did all they could to try to get that accomplished, but at the end of the day, because of the fear of an anchor store not coming and stuff like that and wanting to try to get more, and the big selling point that a lot of people have been trying to sell me on this week is that, well, Dave, look at the numbers. They will never get any of it because they won't be able to raise that kind of money. And my simple reply to that is, why are they even asking if they're not going to be able to obtain it? Nobody asks for something that they don't think they can obtain, especially in the business world, especially being one of the first businesses to try this new rule that we have in place, a new way of trying to get some incentive. So for my downtowners, my Ma and Paul places in Norman and everything like that that's been around for years, I even worry about some of the retailers that have stuck through thick and thin at the mall currently that if another retailer comes in there, that might put them out of business. It might be in direct competition to them. And so for those reasons, I have some deep concerns about this being able to move forward and everything like that on my behalf somewhat.

So, Council Member Gansberry, just two points of clarification. The 50% versus 100% was discussed at a study session with council on a couple of occasions, and it was at the direction of the body that council wanted 100% and a lower cap at 300,000 versus a bigger, a smaller percentage and a higher cap. So that was the position that council took at the time the term sheet was created, and then council approved the term sheet unanimously, so that was the basis of the negotiations. When it comes to actually receiving a rebate, it's based on the mall group investing in mall improvements that benefit el chico's and every every business inside the mall so those capital improvements like we're going to reconstruct the whole parking lot we're going to put all new lighting throughout the mall that's the investment the mall has to make in order to be eligible for nickel one so it would not be just a matter of mall ownership here's a check have a good time, that doesn't benefit all of the mall businesses. But an investment in capital infrastructure benefits everybody inside the mall. So that's just a point of clarification. If sales go up and the mall has not invested in those capital improvements, they get zero.

If I could just ask or say a couple things about that as in debate with it. First and foremost, I applaud them all for what they've done. You know, we was presented that they have spent over four or five million dollars in the last three or four years for roofs and park lots and everything else, because that's what a landlord does to keep up with their tenants from the rent that they get for the landlord experience. A big mall conglomerate If they see a good investment and good opportunity, they're going to invest in the same product and everything to be available. I just know that, like you said, we've been here since about 1.30, and I sat there meeting about 2 o'clock. where we had everybody asked in the audience on who wasn't getting a pay raise this year with the city, and everybody raised their hands, and if they meet the bare minimum number, they're gonna get $50,000, and that ask was for $51,000, you know, so I just, I don't see where that even sounds, so.

Okay, Council Member Bruce.

So we have a basic green five years and what I call two options, but they're extensions of an agreement for I think they're three years three years two extensions Two three-year terms. Yeah, and I assume you know, you know Which is the wrong thing you do in any environment That it's a unilateral right by Council to to exercise that extension

Yes, I'm trying to find the language. The term of the agreement may be renewed for a maximum of two three-year renewal periods with the approval by city council.

So it's you know, all right by the City Council and then for some reason I think I've asked this question before in the past I think I got a response But I'm I'm a big believer in if you're doing options, they should be annual options, but I get it I get it say well now that we didn't design that way there are members of council thought that was better I get it. I'm just used for my prior experience. We're talking to O&M Operation maintenance activity. It's an annual option. Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely. And we do that a lot. We have restrictions about appropriating funds beyond the current fiscal year or obligating funds beyond the current fiscal year. And so it's also subject to an annual appropriation by council. So council would still have to take action every year once we determine what the rebate amount is and appropriate that money.

Thank you. Okay.

Council Member Dixon? Oh, okay. I'll just do Dixon, then I'll come down and I'll head back. You go first.

Oh, me? Okay. I just had a few questions. I kind of feel like I'm speaking for the downtown Norman board, and these were some of their questions. So Councilmember Hinkle touched on it, but you didn't really get real specific, so I'm going to ask again. So who, like, specifically qualifies for this program?

It isn't a program. We have the policy in place from 2013, but it's not really for retail. It was designed for employers providing quality jobs, businesses, incubators, things like that. And so there is not a program specifically for retail. That's something that EDAP would like to work on.

Just reading here what all they said about it, like I said, the downtown Norman board. they act like they're just totally caught off guard by this. And so like they didn't know anything about it. So for that reason, I would love to see this postponed just so they and other people could gain more information about this. And so that's that's what I would like to see happen. Thank you.

Council Member Dixon. Thank you.

The proposed retailer that they're trying to get to come in, is there an estimate of what we think that retailer would do in sales per year?

When this first landed on my desk, it was in conjunction with a possible retailer moving to the mall. That's not included in the agreement, but we did do some analysis, Anthony Francisco and I, based on information we had and information we knew about similar stores. And so we were estimating about $26 million in additional revenue per year. But that, we have not sat down with that particular store to confirm those numbers. But that's the good faith estimate we were able to come up with.

And then the, I did my own spreadsheet and I shared it. Apparently not, people didn't understand it. But if they did half of that, plus another $45,000, that would get to the max, the $300,000 rebate, essentially? Yeah, it's about $13 million in sales to get to that $300,000 rebate. Okay, so it's not... It's not free money. So if they just hit half of the 13 million, would the increase to the dedicated sales taxes, the capital improvement, Norman Forward, transit, and PSST, would that be about $238,000?

I think it's more than that, but those increases would still be seen by the city. We would collect those. We would still collect those. They would not be subject to the rebate.

Okay. Thank you.

Council Member Kirby.

I'm just going to kind of go back on a couple questions. The economic development group or board or whatever said they wanted to do a 50-50 on this.

That's something they were interested in us continuing to negotiate.

Do we normally take their advice when they give advice or do we just pan on through it?

It really depends. We haven't had a lot of examples, certainly not examples of these things, but typically that's provided to council and council considers it when they make their decision.

Okay. And so you said if they hit their mark, like 300,000 per these numbers or whatnot, 300,000 would be going back to that rebate?

Right. If they generated $13 million more in a year in sales, then they would earn the $300,000 rebate. If...

We didn't make this deal and they when it when had went in themselves went through and that same $300,000 a say was available through not giving it away does all that that it goes back into the general funds right right so give raises and all that the PSST the NF in the transit all came out of a percentage of the general funds.

This is just taking from the non-dedicated portion of the general fund. So none of the taxes that are dedicated, none of those revenues would be rebated to the mall under this proposal. Only the non-dedicated portion.

Okay, but what I'm trying to get at is where does the money go that would have went to the mall if we don't give it to the mall? Where does that go?

It's in the general fund for you all to appropriate as you deem fit.

Okay, so back to my question is if it goes back into general funds, then that part that goes back into general funds would raise the overall general fund percentage, which would raise each one of these general percentage back into the public.

No, it would raise the overall general fund revenue. Those revenues would not then be apportioned into the dedicated sales taxes because they're already getting their portion of the tax.

then i wanted to make sure we did do all the studies that are requested to do a project like this like we we got all the third party studies we didn't cut no corners we followed all our own policies and did it to the book to the t 100 dotted all the eyes crossed all the t's

As I said, the policy that we adopted in 2013 isn't designed for retail, so we didn't have that information. And then Darrell, I think, spoke to just the straightforward nature of the proposal. So we did not do third party analysis or anything like that for this proposal.

Was this type of proposal you're saying was not figured in in the original plan?

In the economic development incentives policy, it is designed for quality jobs and employers moving to Norman and bringing with them certain levels of higher paying jobs. It wasn't designed for retail incentives.

Okay, so at what level of pay do we consider it a quality job?

$17.50 an hour plus benefits was the last number from the State Department of Commerce that was pinned as a quality job.

Now, does this person who's coming to the mall for this pay that kind of wages to all their employees?

I don't know. This agreement is not contingent on that particular retail coming to the mall. I do think they'll have some higher paying jobs in management and things like that, and then they'll probably have some that are closer to the $17 or less range.

So probably more poverty jobs and poverty wages for poverty housing. Okay, that's all had this wasn't the design for this we need to follow our policies and stop skipping steps Most of my questions were answered asked and answered I

And I will give the mall manager, Mr. Colwell, an opportunity to speak as well and ask questions of him if you'd like. And mainly, I was wondering, it's hard to tell over 50 years how much tax revenue the mall property has generated. A rough estimate that I was able to find was close to $200 million. in the last 50 years in just sales tax revenue to the city of Norman, based off of the yearly sales of the mall, which are lower probably now than they've, I'm imagining the peak at whatever year it was in was probably much higher. And so just off a rough estimate, the mall has generated nearly $200 million in sales tax revenue to the city of Norman since 1976. And I wasn't sure if there was anything that could Any info that we had at all that could confirm that or had any idea of it? And then I was also wondering how many and and this might be a question for the manager as well But how many jobs currently are at the mall property in whole? Was another question sales tax

generated and then remitted to the city. It's an exercise. We get access to the granular data and sales tax per storefront in the mall. It is not public information. It can only be shared in aggregate. And of course, there's turnover in the mall. So to really drill down on that number, we'd have to know all of the mall retailers year by year and look them up monthly. I mean, it's a big, long math problem. I think your number's probably pretty darn close. And those numbers can be shared in aggregate, but not individually. And I think, yeah, overall for the mall, you're obviously a large retailer prior to Walmart becoming such a big player in retail sales generation. And my guess is Mr. Colwell probably does have pretty good information related to jobs at the mall.

And right now, per year, sales tax from the mall to the city of Norman most recently was the 16 number?

Total sales tax in 2025 was 2.69 million.

That's total sales tax generated by the mall property. And of that, the city gets four. 4.125%. Of that. Correct. Of that total. And then... How many jobs are currently at the mall? 200 plus. 200 plus. OK. OK, Mr. Colwell, if you'd like to come to the podium. Manager of the mall, person who's requested this, made this request of us. And so if you'd like to speak, and then if council members, you have any questions.

Um, Derek Caldwell, general manager of sooner mall and ward two resident. Um, I just want to thank the council and mayor for considering this sales tax proposal for the discussion and for the, you know, the ongoing, uh, deliberations over the last year. So this was not brought to you guys to save the ball or to complete any sort of major renovation. This was all formed together to try to do a partnership between a 50-year-old business here in Norman and our city. What we wanted to look at is ways that the city could reinvest back into our area similar to the way they've done in downtown, in campus, in University Town Center. This investment will help drive opportunities to gain tenants in our shopping center that we constantly hear the citizens of Norman want. They want the higher-end tenants. They want better retailers. They want better shops to go to. improving the property will help that. This will increase sales tax revenue for the city and as well add to experience what this would do for our common areas and for the citizens to touch and be their experience of when they come to our property. So that's what this whole proposal is meant for. the beginning negotiations of this it was brought up that we were going to do just we were going to possibly negotiate a portion of the sales tax we worked with the city because we wanted to figure out a way to make there not be a negative hole for the city with sales tax that's where we came out with the excess um going 50 percent in terms of funds 26 million dollars a year unless you have a new tenant like what we're trying to bring in is big time. I mean, most of our shops on Main Street probably do 100 to $400,000 a year. I've got a handful of tenants that do more than four or $5 million, but not many. The average mall tenant does not do four to $5 million a year in sales. So to get a 50-50 split, we would have to even to get to the, we'd have to do $26 million in sales just to get to that $300,000 mark. And just to clarify our operations, because there's been a lot of misinformation spread online and everybody has their opinions and things that don't really know. But our operations, each property within GGP, each one of them in the portfolio is ran as its own entity. So the dollars that we spent to operate Sooner Mall are dollars that were earned at Sooner Mall. It's not this big conglomerate of a company that just feeds all of the properties. Every one of our properties around the country operates as its own entity. We are Sooner Fashion Mall LLC. The money we spend capital, the money we spend on expenses, the money we spend to operate our facility is generated on our property. We don't get the extra help that everybody thinks. I know there was also concerns about Sooner Mall no longer investing our own capital money if we were to get this rebate. And that's just not possible in a building that's 50 years old, the size that we have, and, you know, we're all we have to do. We currently have a five-year capital plan that I follow that does not include any money from the city and any kind of rebate. You can't plan for something that's not guaranteed. So I won't know next year if we're going to get a rebate until around April or May. So how can I plan for a capital expense for next year without knowing an amount? So I already have that plan for the next five years, which would include about $1.2 million, a little bit more than that, in expenses. Over the last seven years, we have spent a little over $6 million in capital money on our property, which includes roofing, security and housekeeping equipment, water line. Going back to that, close to a million dollars of that was done on a water line project. We were having multiple breaks as the water line was connecting into our building at the attachment points. Well, we contacted the city of Norman. The water line that surrounded the property was on the city of Norman's plan to replace. It was a plan to upgrade, to plan to increase size, and plan to move to the edge of the property to allow the city workers to access it better than down the middle of our property. We worked with the city engineers. We worked with the utility department. We took that project on. We spent a million dollars to replace city infrastructure. We moved the pipeline where it needed to go. We increased the size for the city's future plan. All new hydrants, all new connections. We did every bit of it and then turned that over to the city. So we saved the city almost $931,000 by replacing that section. It benefited us, but it also helped the city out at the same time. It allowed us to replace not just small sections that were breaking, but we eliminated the problem of a 50-year-old pipe that was bursting on property. We're not new to Norman. We are a 50-year-old business. We've been a staple in this community for 50 years. If you look at pictures from 1976, you're going to see the mall. There's not a lot of development. The mall kicked off the development on the west side of Norman. Um, for that fact, there there's not a reason that we would stop investing in our, in our building because we would get 60, 80, a hundred, $300,000. That does not do enough to operate our building. That helps that, that shows a partnership between the city. Um, another miscommunication shared online is that the mall doesn't participate or hold any community activities. I've got a list here of 32 community activities that we we've held at the mall, including 49 years of safety town, which is probably, I can't guarantee it, but I'm gonna say it's one of the longest free running programs for children in Norman. We partner with the Norman PD on. We host National Night Out. We do multiple blood drives. We're one of two Angel Tree locations for Salvation Army. We are not only a drop-off, but we're a distribution. They helped over 400 families with presents this last year. We gave them space for free. We didn't charge them. We do partnerships with CCFI, United Way. We hosted Bridges Prom where they raised $60,000 for their organization. uh... we've hosted for free norman north band car show fundraiser we were you know there's things posted online that we we don't help the schools out we don't do anything like that in the community and that's just not true we're the annual host of norman music teachers piano marathon uh... we're the host of the norman public schools fine arts uh... all city art show preview when the tornado hit east norman in twenty twenty three we stepped in with united way with cross point church with the norman emergency uh... disaster plan and We housed all the donations that were being brought in, the in-kind donations. We housed and we distributed for the city and for all those people affected by the tornado. We are an OGE staging location for disaster response. If there's tornadoes, bad weather, ice coming in, OG&E uses our parking lot as a central hub for the I-35 corridor. They'll stage trucks. I've got power poles in my parking lot right now for what they've done after this last tornado. We do multiple youth choir performances during holidays. We do Cleveland County Election Board for voting registration. We're early voting location for Cleveland County. We're a polling place for three different precincts in Cleveland County. We were the largest COVID testing site in 2020 when the pandemic hit. We were one of the fastest malls to open our mall for free to the health department, the state health department to do COVID vaccinations in 2020. We've been a training site for both the Norman Fire Department and Norman PD. We've hosted the Ward 3 Town Hall meeting. We host the annual downward driving event with Norman Police Department. We've done Boy Scout Pinewood Derbies, the Red Hat Society Fashion Show, our annual Halloween trick or treating. We have a group of seniors that walk the mall every morning. It's a good walking group. It's a community. We host autism awareness events, Allie's House Benefit gift wrapping. We have a partnership with Healthy Living Norman, Stand for the Silent Suicide Prevention, Heart Gallery Adoption Wall, and we do multiple breast cancer awareness events. So we have multiple partnerships with local stakeholders like Norman Police and Fire Department, Cleveland County Health Department, Bridges of Norman, Norman Public Schools, Salvation Army, CCFI, Norman Regional Health System, Cleveland County Election Board, United Way, OBI, and many others. I also hear more money needs to go to local businesses than the mall. Well, the benefit of doing a rebate for the mall is how many businesses actually benefit from doing one rebate. Currently right now, 17 of our tenants are locally owned. They're not national tenants. They are locally owned businesses, 17 of them. And at our current occupancy, if this rebate passes and we are able to reinvest some of this money with this partnership, 49 businesses would benefit from this one rebate, one time, 49 businesses. If we were able to reach 100% occupancy, that would move up to 61 businesses that would benefit from this one rebate. So it's not the mall that benefits. It is 61 businesses in Norman that would benefit from this. All their customers walk through our common areas. All their customers use our restrooms. All their customers' kids play in our play area. All of their customers go through our common area that need the lighting. They sit on the furniture. So this is benefiting 61 businesses. Another common misconception is that Sooner Mall is over market and the rent is very high. Well, I urge you actually to reach out to some of these local tenants that we have. We are the cheapest, most economical rent right now in Norman. If you actually talk to them, I've been at our property for over 12 years now, and the ones that you're hearing online saying the rents are exorbitant, they've tried to rent a space to do a play and it was $3,000, none of these people have reached out to me in 12 years. So I have no clue. So if they did rent a space from the mall or they reached out, it was before 2014. We have a great leasing group. We work locally. We have our local arcade. He started out in 4,000 square foot. He's on his second expansion now at 10,000 square feet. And Arcade wouldn't be able to do that if our rents were so high. Our party store that came into play once Party City went under, 1,700 square feet. She is opening next week in 4,400 square feet. So after a year, she's able to expand more than twice her size. some of the questions are why do we have a baseline of 22 23 and 24 why wasn't 25 included in that there's nothing devious about that this was starting to be negotiated in 25. so if you do a baseline of previous years you use 22 23 and 24 24. that was also off of staff recommendations um To answer some of the questions, the possible tenant that we have coming in right now, the average salary of their workers are $13 to $24 an hour. They're not $7 and $25 an hour jobs. The management of those jobs make upwards of six figures. So they are quality jobs. This one tenant could possibly bring in 50 to 125 more employees to our property. This business is looking at the preliminary plans right now are to invest $25 million into our economy, building the space out. So that's contractors, that's building supplies, that's permits to the city of Norman. I mean, I don't know what the permit for 100,000 square feet would be, but it's a pretty decent price. I mean, all this together, this isn't anything that was brought forward, like I said, to save the mall or do anything like this. I want to create a partnership. We've been in this mall or in this town for 50 years. I've been in this mall since I was in diapers. My great uncle helped with the development of this mall. It's just something to bring the community part of it back. And I've been working on that since I took over in 2018.

Thank you. And council, any questions for mall management? Council Member Gansberry?

Yes, sir. This talks about all the sales tax that have been raised in the 50 years and everything. Once again, that's raised from all those independent business owners within their... leased out property and everything that's paid that right yes and everything and as a landlord you've done great and marvelous there upgrading the facilities and everything like that for them while they've been there and stuff like that also which is really really great and needed especially at this time and everything like that and i do want to say congrats to all the local business owners that are there in that position also but My hiccup still remains the fact that 100% ask when we just went through 100% ask with hopes and dreams of what might have been a reality out of that or not. And the general public has no idea whatsoever what could possibly even be an anchor store or not. And we understand that with the way the business world works, there's a reason for that can't be released and everything like that. But for the general public that are people that helped me vote for me and everything else and stuff like that. It's just really hard for them to do this again when 11,000 of them had to sign a petition to try to get heard about the first time around, you know? Yeah, and I understand that. And so it's just very, very hard to get over that ask. And... You know, I did a simple Google search myself just a second ago and, you know, if anybody thinks they know or has any idea or whatever and everything like that, you know, just like you know how much they're willing to bring to the economy here and stuff like that, it's very easy to find out that that average location makes $35 million a year. on an average. So that would definitely put us in the upper echelon of the returns on investment and everything like that also.

Which at $35 million would also increase. That would go above and beyond the $300,000. That would more than double.

But it would include the whole $300,000 is what I'm saying. A lot of people are talking, oh, they'll be lucky to get $50,000 or $100,000. But I want to say that if that comes to fruition, the $300,000 can happen.

Yes, it could happen. Yes.

Okay.

So say they do the $300,000, or they do the $35 million that an average store that size does, and it depends on the market they're in. Yes, sir. That's $805,000 to the general fund. Yes, sir. So that would be a $300,000 rebate to the mall, but it would be a $505,000 increase back to the general fund, plus the $1.6 million.

Or it could be $800,000 to the general fund. Right? If we don't have to give a rebate, it could still be $800,000 if that's what the revenue comes to. If a big box store, though, is really thinking about only, let's say, put a certain number of these in the state of Oklahoma and everything, Norman's probably in the top five of that.

Tulsa would probably be above, just being honest. Yeah, but I mean, if they're planning on putting multiple in, though. But, so... in terms of why the name of it's not disclosed, is because we are competing with University Town Center. So we do that, and then also the developers in University Town Center, they go after it, and they may have a better incentive that they want to offer. And we incentivize our tenants.

Who operates that other place that's in line to possibly get it?

It'll be University Town Center.

I know, but who runs that organization? Is it the same owners of the mall that's tied to this mall over here? Or whoever else might get it?

No, University Town Center is where Target is. So that's the group that just bought that whole center. So since we are in competition with them, that's why we don't... I mean, retail competition is hard. It's very hard. Retailers are hard. I mean, there's a reason... Retailers are hard that you don't see the normal things you see in a college town here. But we do incentivize. That's the thing that a lot of people in the public and who've never been part of this business, when El Chico's remodeled in 2018, we paid for half the remodel. When Sears left, all the asbestos, we paid for all that removal. That was a half million dollars. We paid to remove all the asbestos and clear the box out because we thought, honest, at that point, Ollie's was gonna come in there. and then COVID hit. Valor Physical Therapy, we gave them a huge chunk of their remodel. We invest back in our tenants. That's just part of this business and that's kind of what this proposal is, is the city, I'm asking the city to invest back into an employer, a business that provides over 200 jobs right now in the city of Norman, could be 300 once we get this done, has 50 years of history with the city. That's what I'm asking, is a good faith partnership.

I think a good faith would have been more of a 50-50 split or a 70-30 split or something like that rather than a whole 100% ask.

Try hard not to look at a percentage.

When the group that we put responsible for at least looking at this and everything even said 50-50, you know.

I would like to just say try hard not to look at a percentage. Look at a dollar figure. So to put it in terms at a 50-50 at $13 million, that is $150,000. Do you know what it costs to build a play area at a mall? No. Have a rough idea, thanks to the doctor. $180,000. $180,000. $300,000 might do remodel the men's restroom or the women's restroom to change the sconce lights inside the malls $100,000. So at a 50-50 split, that is a lot of income. 50-50 split to generate $26 million until that box is built. is hard to do. When I have a handful of stores that do two, three, $4 million, but the average store doesn't. The average store does under a million dollars a year. I don't have space to add 26 more stores. So numbers, not looking at a percentage, looking at an actual, the dollar amount number. And if you look at where the city has invested other money, how much have we invested in the city center TIF? to improve the walkability downtown, the sidewalks, turning Gray Street into two-way. How much have we invested? Millions. So this is $300,000 a year compared to 80 million, to a billion, to whatever the city center toughest cost.

In my opinion, it's $300,000 asked for a retail rebate that, when discussed by our legal tonight, she goes, well, the next people that do this is probably, we're going to have to change some stuff and do some stuff to make it work, an actual program and stuff like that. So that's where it kind of gets a little different, you know, stuff like that. But like I said, I applaud that. You've been able, millions and millions of dollars in renovations in the last couple years.

So whenever this, I brought this forward, I had no clue about this economic development program. What brought this forward is our Town East Mall in Mesquite, Texas did this. Their community embraced it. Huge. They put $400 million into their play area from a city and school system incentive. They built a reading area out of their play area. They hold events in their play area. Their community embraced it. And at First Colony Mall in the Houston suburb, they got a community TIF funds to build a new outdoor play green space area. Their community embraced it. That was my feeling here. I wanted something to build community back that the community would embrace. And to be honest, I looked at a lot of stuff that the community has pushed back on. That's why I asked for a five-year term instead of a 20-year term or a 25-year term. That's why I asked for a cap and so there wasn't a ceiling. So even at 100%, there's still a cap. That's where my heart is on it.

I appreciate it.

Council Member Hinkle.

Mr. Caldwell, how many annual visitors does Sooner Mall get?

Between 2.2 and 2.5 million. Okay. Height of 2014, we were about 3.5 when I had a full anchor.

Do you have any idea of the average age of the patrons that visit you?

I could pull the data. I don't have it on me. I'd pull the data. I would probably say between 35 and 45. um to the north of us is penn square mall do you have any idea what their average visitors are i know it's in a larger city but um i i don't i'm going to say it's probably in the 3.2 to 3.7 neighborhood neighborhood but they're they're getting less visitors now that the oak across the street's been built

Are there any other malls in our region similar square foot size that you might know the annual visitorship of? Or do you know how many malls in our regional area that are our size that no longer exist?

Bartlesville no longer exists. Lawton no longer exists. Ardmore no longer exists. Currently in Oklahoma, enclosed regional shopping centers. There's two in Oklahoma City and one in Norman and one in Tulsa. Okay. Tulsa, they just got Shields. And so that anchor store pulled that mall, which is a 2 million square foot mall. So we're about 600,000 square feet. So they're bigger than us. But Shields is what pulled Tulsa up.

Does the mall group invest in any sort of hotel on property on site type stuff?

That's my next go-to is to try to get us to develop a hotel. Okay.

Would this incentive potentially or this rebate potentially go towards any of those efforts or is that?

No, that would be a complete part of our parent group is a hospitality group. We have a hotel development group. So that is on my agenda. I'm actually putting a presentation together to submit to my corporate office next week.

I'm just concerned. We talk about cannibalization a lot. And it seems like if we were to say no to a corridor of town, any corridor, whether it's downtown or campus corner or anything, to revitalize or make any efforts to support them, then that would be a detriment to the city. lucky me I have two teenagers and you know I go downtown but they go to the mall because that's where their stores are and that's where their friends are and that's where a ton of Pokemon are so I I worry about the things that I've seen in other communities when their malls have shut down and the types of non retail non for lack of a better word, non-exciting tenants come in. What that does to the community, I think about Shawnee and Muskogee and what their kids do is they leave and they go to Oklahoma City or they go to another place that exists. So the math on this, to me, is relatively low risk because we're not asking for any money that exists yet. It's all dependent on

your new performance essentially exactly so if you don't perform then you don't get anything well and this year is a good example our numbers did not hit above the average so i i'm willing to go into an agreement where i know the first year there's not even a rebate so it now becomes a four-year agreement instead of a five so it was in the city's favor this year so we do bleed off a lot of our customers um from the university we miss out on a lot of money because of the type of tenant a lot of university students want. They're at the Oak, they're at Penn Square.

Can you mention the Ardmore Mall closed?

It's on its way. They might have one or two tenants left.

I think it's mostly military recruiting in there now. I don't know. I'd have to check because I know Buckle just moved out. Was last time I went. Are there any other malls This is just a very ignorant question, but are there any other malls in between here and the state line of Texas? None. None?

No. Our trade area goes from here to about Sherman, Denton area. Okay. Denton has a small mall there. I think it's called Triangle, something like that. They have a small mall there, but our trade area goes all the way down, and we encompass all of our surrounding towns here also.

Okay.

That's all I have. Thank you.

Council Member Kirby.

Again, I can honestly say the last time I was in that mall was June of 2001. buy my wedding outfit and have not returned since um but i do have some questions as far as you said you won't tell the people what you're wanting to bring to norman because of competition so it's nothing to do with legal oh yeah it's nothing to do with sec trading because the attorneys i've been talking to have said you could be more than up front and let us know who is coming and that There shouldn't be nothing to prevent you from that, so I'm just asking that. Hold on.

It's a legal nondisclosure on our side from our legal group.

Okay, so.

We have an internal policy, a nondisclosure policy of any upcoming tenants. We do not make public until leases or sales are done.

OK, that's strike one on my part. I'm very big about making sure the public knows. I mean, these are the people who are going to be shopping at your mall. These are the people who are going to be wanting to support this business. These are the people who could decide if this business is located in multiple towns in Oklahoma. And you're saying, hey, I'm going to let these few group decide that all of Norman has to stay unaware of what's coming because we don't want other people. I mean, I'm a businessman, and I tell everybody about my competitors. That way they can shop them and then shop me because I don't worry about competition.

I'm excited about it, but when you're looking at the possibility of selling a large chunk of real estate, fill in a box that's been empty for five years, six years. I'm not trying to offend you by any means, but real estate is completely different than the field you're in. None of this was hostile. Keeping the tenant from people, that's not hostile. It's the word of you've got a brand-new development that's bright and shiny, and you have a 50-year-old property.

And by keeping it where I can't disclose all the reasons I am not supporting this particular business, because it is a secret, and I would also like to ask how many other businesses in the mall does this particular corporation that's wanting to come in own? Zero. Zero? Zero. So they have no affiliation with any businesses on the other end? No. They have nothing in Norman. It's new to Norman. The company, the actual whole company that owns? Yes, it's new to Norman. Okay. How about the mall? How many businesses in the mall does the mall own that would be getting part of this rebate? Any? Like the company that you are representing?

I believe our Brookfield Properties, which owns GGP, I believe they own a portion of JCPenney's. and they've bailed out multiple retailers over the years.

And how is JCPenney's doing right now? I mean, will this help them?

Yes, this will help them. Anything to drive traffic, and this one tenant will drive anywhere from a half a million to a million people to the property a year. That's what I've lost by losing Sears.

That'll be all. Thank you.

Sorry, Bruce.

I appreciate it, Mr. Caldwell. Just give me a moment. Side note here, I read somewhere, I'm trying to recall, that really youth are returning to the malls because they want to see someone and get off the phone. I'm thinking, wow, that's a big change. So I'm glad to see that where people are trying to get off their phones and actually talk back and forth. You mentioned an anchor store. I think of dealers as an anchor, but another anchor store. Man, I hope you get all the anchor stores you can get. I hope the business goes just gangbusters. I'm thinking about your five-year capital plan. I'm thinking, okay, man, you gotta continue to invest above previous years.

As income grows, the capital plan grows.

You know, I'm thinking, you know, I, you know, I naturally think about appearance first when I walk in someplace. Is it kept? Is it the doors work? You know, is it is it someplace I want to be? You know, I mean, there's a bathrooms work, the plumbing work. I mean, you've been those places, right?

No, no, 100%.

So I'm thinking, well, I've got to sustain this big facility and I've got to keep that five-year capital plan invested at a certain level. And if I'm lucky, I'm going to grow it. I'm going to grow it and spend more to keep people coming in just so it is aesthetically, it's pleasing to be there. Everything works. And I'm attracting other parties that are in business to, hey, I want to rent space from that. So talk to me about the growth as it relates to your five-year capital plan. I mean, best case scenario.

Best case scenario. So capital dollar budgets are based off of a percentage of NOI. So your NOI is your net operating income. So that is the income you make after you've taken care of the building, your general expenses, your payroll, your internet, your marketing, your property taxes. So as that NOI grows, the capital investment grows because that percentage will get higher. And we have two buckets of capital. So there is one portion where our parent company does step in. So we have our NOI capital, which is that percentage based on, and then we have our large capital, which is the parent company's investment. the water line that was almost a million dollars. That wasn't in a normal capital plan. I don't spend a million dollars in a year on normal capital. That wasn't, it's something our company thought was a great investment, so we did it. Four million dollars on a roof, not in a normal capital plan. But we got hammered with a hell storm, noticed other areas of the roof were having problems, just did 90% of it. So it depends on the property and what projects come up.

Is there any other, I'm going to call it retailers, that have their eye on that property and they're trying to make a decision, hey, am I going to come to Norman? Something new. Yeah, Trader Joe's. I'd love to have a Trader Joe's here. Is there anyone else in discussions with your company besides this? I only know of one. I don't even know who that really is.

Yeah, we've got about four nationals. that are things that the community has said.

You know, they look at, you know, just like if I was the head of a corporation, I'd be looking at the environment. You know, what's that environment like? Does the community support operations? You know what I mean? Yeah. I would sit back and, well, how is the community supporting a business like this? You know, if I was Trader Joe's. I imagine the same thing, you know, if I'm going to rent space from you, if I'm, hey, how's the relationship, how's the business environment in Norman for me to come in there? I would go to you and say, hey, talk to me about that. I'd go to other parties, too.

Yeah, and overall, I feel like the environment itself is great. Everybody, you know, talks about the, when you look at the environment of the mall, so I have a two-year-old and a four-year-old. I don't live to work. I work to live. It's there to pay my bills and support my family. If it wasn't something that I didn't enjoy, I wouldn't go to every day. If I didn't enjoy my tenants, I wouldn't go. I've developed lifelong relationships with people that have worked there way longer than I have. Everybody also thinks, because of the size of the mall, we are a large business. We're not. It's myself, my admin, a another employee that takes care of my common area tenants and events, and one maintenance guy. And I've been down a maintenance guy for six months. So we're a small business. We're a four-person operation. We all take pride in our work. This month actually is our favorite month of the year because it is Safety Town. That is one of the things I've protected since I've gotten there. No matter what developments wanted to come in, that program won't go away. It started in 1977, it might move somewhere else on property, but it's not going away.

I have heard a, I think there was a comment from you about 35 million was, if it, okay. That's a lot, that's significant. That's significant if you're able to draw that party in. That's all I have.

Any other questions?

Some questions. If there was a postponement, does that affect your ability to get that retailer that you're hoping will move to Norman?

I can't say yes or no because the negotiations with that retailer are above my level.

Okay.

I will say this has been, I think I started meeting with council members in February of last year. So I would hope not a postponement.

I hear you. And I do appreciate the tour that I got and the breakdown of facts. Where I'm struggling, obviously I represent Central Norman, and that's going to be Campus Corner and downtown. Not to say that other council members don't have business centers downtown in their wards, but a good number of those downtown businesses are ward four residents as well. On the whole, I don't really think I have a problem with it, I get the math, but it would be the fairness part and the Economic Development Advisory Board recommending a retail policy. That's why I asked would you be open to a postponement if we worked a process where it would be like this is fair, retail can, you know, if we're not giving special favors to the mall

I wouldn't see it as a special favor even not postponing. It's a new idea. Like I said, I didn't know about this economic develop policy. I did this because other communities within our company embraced it and I thought Norman would do the same. That's why I brought it forward. Yes. I was pretty honestly disappointed in the post and the letter from the downtown association. We never push anybody away from different areas of Norman. I ate downtown last night. I think I actually saw you walk by when I was at local last night.

Probably.

Um, so we, we never do that. Um, I, I want Norman to understand that communities can have different shopping districts, can have different districts. That's why Oklahoma city works with Paseo, with Plaza, with the Oak, with Penn square, with Quail Springs, with Chisholm Creek, every area has a different type of tenant. We don't have the same tenants. We don't main street's not a competitor of ours. North park is main street's not, I still don't turn away anybody away from north park. Some of our tenants left and went to north park when that was developed. We send people to Main Street. I think if Norman would look at what some of these other cities are doing and how these other cities are working with different districts, we could do the same if we understand we're not in competition with Main Street. And maybe we use this as a blueprint to move forward and maybe develop something specifically for retail. But like I said, I didn't come in with this. as this economic development agreement for this specific program. I did this because I saw it embraced in other communities. And I would like just to see it embraced in Norman also.

Thank you. I hear you. Because where I represent, I might not be a yes tonight. And I hope you understand. But I definitely do not want to take an adversarial relationship with them all. And I appreciate that's where, honestly, the kids are going. You know, it's really sooner theater is what draws the kids to downtown I am just struggling with the economic Development Advisory Board's recommendation for the retail policy and then dealing with my constituents I will say and Katherine can contest there is a provision in so since the money has to be allocated by council every single year It's not an automatic given there's a protection in the contract that if the city doesn't allocate it It doesn't put you guys at default Okay.

So if it was to pass tonight and there were some adjustments made, you guys, we are the ones that do the adjustments. We could go back and adjust. Like I said, this has just been ongoing since February of 25, and that's why the numbers are what it is. And if this does get passed tonight, it turns from a five-year agreement to a four because the first year is automatically null because we didn't hit our mark. It is completely performance-based.

Okay, and you did say that retailer was watching what we were doing tonight and their decision?

That's what my understanding is from my leadership group.

Okay, thank you. No more questions.

Council Member Blodgett, we still have public comment as well, just to remind everybody.

Yes, I just had another question. So what would happen if it's a no vote tonight? Do you think that retailer would still come to the mall?

Like I was saying before, the negotiations there are above my grade, but this is the type of retailer that normally cities do incentivize. So if it's a no here, and part of the provisions with this too is if, so if any of this money that is used for this rebate is used in form of a tenant allowance for a tenant, they're not allowed to come to the city without prior written approval. So you can't double dip. but there's a good chance that this tenant would come to the city and probably ask them for more money if we can't use any of this for tenant allowance.

Thank you.

All right, okay. Thank you. This is an opportunity for members of the public to make comments regarding this item. Remarks should be directed to council only. Once public comments have concluded, council may choose to answer your questions. Madam Clerk, are there any speakers registered for this item?

Yes, mayor. Uh, Stephen Ellis.

Stephen Ellis word for, uh, I was under the impression that this item was going to be postponed tonight, but I guess that was bad information. Uh, so let's do this. Uh, I have a more nuanced and much more general take, and I basically sent that ahead to you and I'll talk about it in a minute. But holy cow, the manager of the mall just dropped a huge bomb tonight. He admitted that he was in competition for this mystery retail person with the UTC. So essentially what this program is, is us paying the mall to compete with the UTC, which is already in Norman. The city is going to get the sales tax from the mystery tenant either way. So then the question becomes, do we get it without strings, or do we give away over half of that sales tax by getting the mall to win that competition? That is insane. The idea that we're not competing with ourselves is ridiculous. It was clear in the presentation tonight. So we're literally at 100% diversion here. So there's guaranteed to be a negative return on investment for Norman. And if you don't see that point, if that didn't seem glaringly obvious to you, please postpone this tonight because you have to be able to run the numbers on these things. That's what I want to talk about in just a minute. And if you don't see how competing with the UTC for this mystery tenant guts this as a return on investment for Norman, you're not ready to make this decision yet. So back to my planned remarks. The presentation from legal admits that this is not the sort of incentive envisioned by the current policy. And yet here we are with no economic or fiscal analysis, no numbers from the mall, nothing other than the agreement itself. So we have to be serious about economic development, right? This is not a charity donation. It's not even a purchase for value. This is supposed to pay off financially. It's a contract that's supposed to be in our benefit. But to justify that benefit, you've got to get the public involved. the numbers on what the return on investment is going to be, or at least to work it out in public. But we have nothing here. And note that the scenarios that are behind you on the wall there are not that kind of economic analysis. Two problems. First of all, it just calculates the scenarios. But secondly, it confuses the baseline for getting a rebate with the but for analysis, which is what would happen if we don't have this policy proposal. That turns out to be the most important thing. That's why it matters that they're competing with UTC for mystery tenant. I worked out the ROI calculation and sent it to you, at least the formulas, and I offered to actually run some numbers on scenarios if I could get more input. Nothing was forthcoming. But here's what we do know. Just from the available data, the mall would need to more than double its growth over the but-for condition, not the rebate condition, but the but-for condition, just to break even in terms of ROI. No one is offering numbers today that will guarantee that. And that's what we need to know. And that's even before you do the diversion analysis, which rapidly cuts into any potential return on investment. But now that we know the diversion is likely to be 100%, this makes zero sense from the perspective of Norman finances. Thank you.

Paul Wilson, Marguerite Larson.

Marguerite Larson, Ward 6. I am definitely against this project, 150% against it. I have worked in that mall. I was in that mall for 10 years at Express. And the decline of the mall happened when we widened Main Street and people could not get there. So the vast majority of shoppers started shopping elsewhere. They never came back. And then we have now where Target and all that is. So people are migrating. Now you want to build an entertainment center, guaranteeing all these shops and bars and restaurants, you're going to migrate again. My concern is that this is not a project that is actually going to benefit the citizens of Norman. I think this project may benefit the owners of the malls. And they were talking about capital appreciation. If you are an owner, which I'm assuming the city does not own the property, it is their responsibility to fix the lines. It's their responsibility to put in electricity. It's not y'all's responsibility to pay for that because you don't own it. It would be like me coming to you and saying, I need a new roof. You don't mind, do you? Walk it over, baby. So... I really think that you should think very, very seriously about this before you cast your vote and say, okay, we're just going to give all the money away because that's what we do.

Thank you. Mayumi?

Hello, Miami Windler, Ward 2. So I feel like I've talked about this one before, where I feel like we aren't getting enough information at the EDAD meetings about real numbers, real statistics. And this whole thing is not even meant for that policy, for the whole retail thing. So yeah, if it's not meant for retail, why? Are we trying to fit, you know, a square peg into a rand hole? It just doesn't make sense to me. Thanks.

Thank you. Paul Accaroli.

Paul Accaroli, Board 3. You know, I expected everybody to make clear-eyed decisions, clear-headed decisions about economic policy, and I didn't see a whole lot of that through this process, starting with the first study session. I saw a lot of emotional discussions, a lot of I got institutional discussions, but not so much about what are the economics of this. Let's be clear-eyed and clear-haired about this. They're asking us to give them money for whatever reason. And it's not tied to the potential of a new business, which is going to give them money. It's not tied to any special deal here. The mall and the mall owners, by the way, the mall owners are an out-of-state corporation, a multi-billion dollar corporation. It's not General Growth Properties. General Growth Properties is a subsidy. It's a bigger company privately held who owns all the malls. Whether or not they are legally set up to operate independently and manage their own budget, that's not for us to decide. It doesn't matter. they are a multibillion dollar out of state company. For you all to make decisions about giving them, granting them rebates, which is kind of an absurd term to begin with, it's not a rebate. I think it's fundamentally flawed and everything about this process is fundamentally flawed. I would encourage you all to go back to the table and at least make this available to a larger audience, at least inform our public, inform our business public about what this is about. Because up to this point, it's a bit of a slap in the face to the local businesses that have done so much to develop their business, to bring in clientele, to develop customers, to be truly part of this community. I'm not saying the mall is a bad place. I think they should compete like anybody else. By the way, I worked at the mall in 1976. I remember when D. Dalton's and all the other stores were there. The largest, by the way, the largest public gathering space at that mall was this beautiful fountain. which they removed, this ownership removed to replace with a chaos setup. So, you know, it's all a business decision. It's not, we are so much, we are all about community. Community part of it, great. Let them make those decisions that help their business. But it is absurd for us to suggest that they need our money or our tax dollars to be successful. They're going to invest in their business, and they're going to maintain their property, or they're going to change their plan. That's a great piece of land, by the way. If it was no longer a mall, it would be a really great place for affordable housing for somebody else. I'm sure that land would do just fine. This is the free market. If you guys want to invest in small businesses, then I suggest that you make this available to the larger community. Table this. You all do your business really well when you want something from us, when you want bond money, when you want road money, when you want Norman Forward money. You do the business really well. You inform us. You have meetings, meeting after meeting after meeting. You do the job to inform the citizenry. This didn't happen with this. Call it a program or not, I don't care. The fact is that it came out of nowhere and it seemed to be perfectly set, perfectly designed for the...

Thank you. Alex Lanphier.

Alex Lanphier, Ward 2. So I oppose this item. I don't understand why the city would subsidize a multinational company, especially when malls have been failing for over a decade now. If this were a local business or owned by a Norman resident, I might feel different. If that rebate money was used for improvements on Main Street or public parks or something the entire community could enjoy It might make more sense to me but to pay for improvements to them all the city doesn't own That could go under and end up like crossroads mall. I don't think it's worth it This just seems like a form of corporate welfare to me. Thank you. Please vote. No.

Thank you boy Carol Brian sort min Russell Rice. We have people that have signed up but they didn't check what they wanted to speak on.

Hello. Russell Rice, Ward 2. I think that we should update the policy first and then look at this again if it's something that's still around uh i mean we should be redoing things post-coveted right it's not the same anymore 2013 versus today that's stuff has changed we need to update it um We also need to figure out the details for retail, right? You're very specific about it. Because I know that with the University North Park TIF money, they're very specific about what retail is and isn't as well. And they've recently included food. So it changes, right? uh we should not be paying for two things to compete against themselves while also having the more family uh developments going on as well so i don't even think we have enough hotel rooms to cover all of it anyways i'm a solid no on this uh y'all have a good day thank you thank you um i have a norman davis and cheryl davis but they did not check what item they wanted to speak on are they here

I don't know what items you wanted. Did you want to speak on this item or was it for miscellaneous?

Okay.

Yes, sir. That's okay. I just want to clarify.

Is there any.

My name is Aisha War III. I own a business on Campus Corner, one on the west side. My parents have owned businesses since I was two, restaurants, meat slaughtering businesses, retail, grocery stores, what have you. There's a lot to unpack here. I don't know if you guys want to postpone it, reject it, but this is the one thing I'm going to say, equitable. Every business in Norman has struggled since COVID. I don't care if you're in the Lindsay district. I'm in a member. I have been a member for downtowners East side, Lindsay for campus corner association mix on main, whatever you call it. Every business is struggling and there's not a single person who's representing and speaking on their behalf. I'm a chamber member. And every time you guys speak about developing for businesses from the city manager and everyone is the big businesses. I've tried looking for a location there it's too expensive. The rates the extra this and that it's too expensive. Let me try to unpack everything that was said today. Businesses need to work together campus corner and downtown when they started working together game day or during art walks They started thriving yes or no When you compete it doesn't do anyone justice whether you're a corporation franchise or mom-and-pop Ecab Representation by Ward or businesses is very one-sided. There's none. I Third point, looking at numbers by the districts at the, I'm going to have to go fast, at the mall they're saying they have 20, 31 open. They're going to try to fill 40 and 60 total after all of this. Well, looking at just the businesses, Campus Corner has 55 or more plus some spots that are closed and they're struggling. um downtown or 68 or more and they're still struggling lindsay for how many years struggling since all of that construction east side we could use some fit food businesses um unp still struggling it doesn't matter we're all the same norman and then clientele we're all banking on that college student but what's the clientele that's consistent COUNCILMEMBER HINKEL SAID IT, OUR CHILDREN, THOSE TEENS, THE ONES THAT CAN'T DRIVE, THAT ARE WALKING OVER, THEY'RE THERE CONSTANTLY. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? THOSE KIDS ARE NOT GOING TO THE MALL. HIS KIDS MIGHT BE, BUT NOT MY TEENS. I'VE GOT THREE OF THEM. THEY'RE GOING TO THE GALLERIA, THEY'RE GOING TO THE CITY. $10 MILLION IS WHAT PENN SQUARE IS GROWING. four or five, whatever was said, and they're buying online. What are you doing to compete with the online? You're not competing with the online. You have to have different drop-off points for online, you know, help those businesses shift. The other cities are doing things to have online sales or have drop-off points. Gen Z, Gen Alpha. Gen Alpha is what's going to the mall. My 10 and 9-year-old to the arcade. The candy store that's local. And then community give back. The rotary supports and they pay for the safety town. And local businesses, they don't have space to give, but they give money. Mom and pops give money. That's all I can say. Seven seconds.

Thank you.

Hello Ella Crenshaw Ward 6 I'll keep this short and sweet like I always do. The most powerful argument that I heard tonight for community oriented activities that would require city support at the mall were all of the different groups that they support and that they give space to, like Safety Town, like the Red Hat Day, like United Way, all of those things, right? Well, we have a beautiful new building over at the fairgrounds. We have recreation centers all across town. We have all kinds of spaces that would house these kinds of things if the mall didn't exist. And I don't really see any other powerful argument for giving all this money to the mall. If we want to invest this money, invest it somewhere else in the city. Thank you.

Thank you. Yes, please.

Rodney Johnson, Ward 2. I would like for you, Mr. Peacock, to vote for this amendment or this bill or ordinance, I guess is what we want to call it. Downtown, Ward 4. How much have we helped those people out? Of course, we know, what is it, Ward 6, I believe? Ward 8, I'm sorry, Ward 8. We've done a lot of economic development in Ward 8. Obviously, I'm in Ward 2. Yeah, you widened Lindsay. I appreciate that. But those business there have suffered because of that. Now, let's talk about dying malls, okay? Malls have had a hard time, and any of you, and a lot of us our age, have been to the malls in the 90s, 80s, early 2000s, when things were great for the malls. Now they're dying everywhere. Do you want an empty spot like Crossroads Mall that just sits there? I think the mall owners, yes, they are a big corporation. And I gotta say, I've before, back in the heyday of malls, used to have small businesses like they still do with kiosks in the middle of the mall. I'd go to the mall to get my hair cut. A lot of those businesses are local businesses. And if this goes down, I guarantee I'm going to tell everybody I know in Ward 2 and Ward 3 never to go downtown again because those businesses that are against this have gotten a lot of support from me and the city on economic development and all those kind of things. The mall has done a great job of doing what they do now. A lot of those businesses are small businesses. If they can get more traffic into the mall, we are paying a very small price for that to happen. And you will get a lot more small businesses that can have those little kiosks and you are doing economic development for the smallest of the small. And Ward 5, look how much we have supported Ward 5 in a lot of their fights against the OTA. The city has done a lot for all of the wards. They've done very little for Ward 2 and Ward 3. And that's the part of the area I live in. That's where my friends live in. That's where I live my life. And you know what? I am sick and tired of supporting Ward 4, Ward 8, and all these other wards when our wards just go out there. And you know, after they did the TIF up by UTA, What did we have a meeting for? All of these wards. Let's have a TIF here, let's have a TIF here, let's have a TIF here. Nobody in ward two or ward three ever had it. Now granted, I think it's because of some of the regulations, but we don't get TIFs in our wards. So I don't know what you guys are doing and you say you don't want an economic war. You're fixing to get one. Because what you are doing is you are pitting ward against ward. I can't even believe that the downtown association would even write a letter.

Okay. All right. All right. Are there any final comments from council regarding this item? We had at least one council member suggest or make a comment about postponing or two. But Council Member Hinkle?

Yeah, I have just a couple more follow-up questions for clarity from Mr. Caldwell. So how many national businesses are at Sooner Mall right now?

Right now would be... Roughly about 34.

And how many locally owned businesses? 17. 17.

So about a third of our businesses are...

So 17 locally owned businesses would for sure benefit from some sort of rebate to the common areas and bathrooms and things of that nature.

And a lot of these are first-time businesses. I mean, our barbershop that he mentioned started here and now has a location at Penn Square Mall, has a location at Quail Springs Mall. He's developed... Our arcade has... tripled his size.

Okay. My next question is for Ms. Walker. Just to reiterate, this plan could potentially be used by downtown for a similar request or by Campus Corner for a similar request if this were something that we move forward with.

There's nothing in policy or ordinance that prohibits a business from making a request like this. If we move forward with a retail incentives policy, we'll have more policy to guide those decisions, but nothing exists now that stops anyone from making a request.

So this essentially could be a template for the same development all over the city, the same type of rebate. Yeah. that would surely be protested by somebody who doesn't use that facility, I'm sure. My next question is for City Manager Pyle. There's no doubt that Art Walk provides a benefit to Ward 4 and downtown Norman. How does Norman Arts Council get the majority of their funding to put on things like Art Walk? Hotel bed tax allocation? And that comes from?

Out of town visitors to Norman staying in hotels and a portion of the 10% hotel bed tax they pay is allocated to the Norman Arts Council.

That was voted on by the people and brought forth by council? Correct. Okay. And then my last question is, are there any programs that exist in Norman currently that allows our aging community to get help with home maintenance? So if they were to come ask for a request to stay in place or to have some sort of upgrade like a bathtub or a roof, Is that money possible for a resident to get?

The Community Development Block Grant funds through HUD do provide for assistance for senior citizens with an emphasis on allowing them to age in place. So it could include ramps. It could just include simple home repairs that they might not otherwise be able to afford on their own.

So we do provide assistance for things that people can't afford if they need it. Yes, sir. In that capacity. Okay, thank you, those are my questions.

Okay, any other comments, questions? Council Member Bruce?

I think there's a, Mr. Caldwell, a question for him. Maybe another party, but there were some comments made, and I just wanna make sure I'm clear in my mind about one area. So I know how I would act if I was another municipality. and I knew of a potential business opportunity, man, I would be recruiting those babies. I'd try to find out who it is, and I'd be recruiting. So there's a lot more competition than just UNP.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. There's a lot more. Just locally in town, my point in taking that was not just with this one tenant. UNP is our direct competition for retailers in town because of the type of tenants, the natural type of tenants.

I wouldn't consider...

Because you don't see Buckle on Main Street. You don't see Victoria's Secret on Main Street. You don't see Express on Main Street. You don't see Old Navy on Main Street. I'm talking about the type of tenants that a regional enclosed mall usually encompasses. And so locally, University Town Center is our competition. But Penn Square is our competition. The outlet malls are actually still our competition. Quail Springs Mall, which is our sister mall, is competition.

Yeah, I wish I was in that situation where I was going to drop 25 million and do, you know, 30 million worth of business a year. I mean, I wish I was in that. I would be really researching the community. If it makes sense. Yeah. You know what I mean?

All the way from... And they are... This... Process has started in about October, November is when the actual negotiation started and we began the pre-sale agreement. And usually these pre-sale agreements take about a year because once we reach terms, then I have to replat the parcel. We have to prepay the property taxes for the next year. The county requires us to prepay those. Once the tax parcel is replatted, everything has to be resurveyed before any closing can happen. So this process usually takes about a year. So we're hoping end of third quarter, beginning of fourth quarter this year, we can announce.

I don't have any other questions.

Council Member Grant.

Yes. I feel like my message was lost earlier about not having an adversarial role. It wasn't lost, I promise. There's a downtowners meeting on Thursday. I would just say that I am going to make a motion to postpone and then get back with that group and give them some of the highlights of this meeting and also the optics. And I would, in a motion to postpone, do it to a date certain of June 23rd. and hope to have, if it passes, another session where we could go over the finer points and then bring it back to potentially pass, just because I have a feeling that it's going to be very divided. But anyways, I just wanted to put that out there, and again, not in an adversarial way.

No, 100%. I know, and you have to respond to your constituents. Like I said, I wish somebody from the downtowners would have reached out to me. Not one.

I will pass that along.

Not one did. um i wish a lot of community members i had i've had probably six people since this process has started actually come to my office and talk to me six citizens great conversations some of them still didn't agree with it which is fine everybody has their opinion um like i said i just i wish somebody would have because we we support the downtown we've never pushed back on any of the the improvements downtown we've never pushed back on any we honestly even with the arena proposal, we asked that there might be a cap on how much retail space because there's already so much south of Rock Creek. But beyond that, we've never pushed back. To be honest, I don't think it's good business. I think you should support everybody. And I think Oklahoma City is a true example of how multiple districts can survive and intertwine with each other. I don't understand how it doesn't happen here in Norman.

And I appreciate that. I believe somebody who spoke earlier talked about our TIF district master plan, and those areas are set by the Department of Commerce, and I'm keenly aware of where there are not opportunities for TIFs. Yeah, we're not eligible. So anyways, like I said, it's a friendly postponement is what I would I'm about to suggest I think if we could go June 23rd I I would be okay.

Like I said, I just this has been since February. It's been an ongoing thing Every time we do anything there we feel like we have something settled and good and feel like there there's path moving forward and then there's changes requested day of or day before and and

I completely understand. I've been doing this coming up on five years of July.

I don't envy any of y'all's jobs.

Yeah. But yes, that is the motion I'm going to make. And as I said again, it will be coming from a friendly place.

There's a motion on the floor to postpone.

I can make it whenever we're done. OK.

I have Hinkle and .

Well, all I was going to say before, the question was kind of re-asked and answered. Earlier he stated that he did not want to postpone anything. But it sounds like now after things tonight, there might be a possibility of that. So I'll just make sure we respected the person that's here in front of us tonight's time and energy and everything like that on this project.

In all honesty, I would rather have, I mean, if it was my opinion, I'd rather have a unanimous decision. I wouldn't want to divide accounts. I wouldn't want divided opinions. Obviously there's always going to be a divide in the community kids. I mean, you understand you cannot make every person happy. Nobody's going to be. Not every person has to be happy with every decision. So I understand even if there is a postpone, there might be a divide, but if there is a chance where we can, you know, come to a better terms or just maybe explain things better, um, I think, because I think people do get stuck on some things. I think people do have some misunderstandings. And I think, and nothing against people, but if you're not in commercial real estate with retail, you have a lot of opinions that aren't necessarily true or fact. So I just, I think there's a lot there.

Council Member Dixon.

I, it's amazing that Norman has a reputation of not being business friendly, um, especially with tonight's meeting. This is ridiculous. Um, the number of people that have been up here and talked to us and said, you know, we're just giving money away. If the mall increases their sales by $13 million, they get to keep $300,000, and the city also gets to keep 258,000 of that, if not 260,000 of that increase. So when you look at it and you say, well, it's 100-0, it's really not. It's closer to 55-45 when you look at the total sales tax. they only get this if they generate new sales tax that's it like we're if a coffee shop on campus corner wants to increase their sales by 13 million dollars i would happily let them keep 300 of it for a few years 100 any business that wants to do this I am 100% for it because I understand investment. I understand investing in Norman. I wish everybody saw it like I do. I understand they don't. But I really wish we could start investing in Norman because this agreement goes away at some point in four years, in seven years, in 10 years. Whatever. But those sales tax, the sales taxes remain. That customer, that tenant will be here. It's a simple investment. If you have a 401 , you're doing the exact same thing. You're setting aside some of your money today and not spending it so that you don't have to work when you're 93 years old. If you have just an investment account, it's the exact same thing. You're doing without a little bit today so you can have a lot tomorrow. This is, that's it. Thank you.

Thank you. All right. Anybody else? Okay. Is there any further?

Okay. She has to make. I would like to make a motion to postpone this item until date certain of June 23rd and if the mayor would agree to agendize extra meetings so we could talk about this like to clear that before the 23rd as well.

My brain is fried. I've been in meetings all day, so I have to get back with you.

Yes, I think most likely we could discuss that next Tuesday, I believe.

Okay.

I'm sure. Do I have a second? A second. Okay, so the motion on the floor is to postpone this item to June 23rd. You may vote.

Okay, so do you wanna announce your vote for me? My vote would be, for the record,

Thank you. The motion fails to postpone.

That would be affirmative if Council Member Cansberry is a yes.

One, two, three, four, five. Yes, I'm sorry. I didn't see Matt Peacock on there. Yes, so I'm sorry. Yes, it passes by a vote of five to four, voting against Council Member Dixon, Council Member Hinkle, Council Member Bruce, and Council Member Kirby. Now we are back to the main motion.

So we postpone that.

Oh, yeah, sorry. This will go on the next meeting. Your main motion will go back to the main meeting. So this item has been postponed to this June 23rd. I'm sorry, it's very late, guys. And it's been a very long day.

City Clerk will look at what's next Tuesday, but I'm pretty sure that we can fit it up there.

Yeah, I'm sure we can work it in.

Okay. All right. And this next item is miscellaneous comments. This is an opportunity for citizens to address city council. Due to the Open Meetings Act regulations, council is not able to participate in discussion during miscellaneous comments. Remarks should be directed to the council as a whole and limited to four minutes or less.

I'm not required to do it, but when I want to postpone to make more comments.

No, not yet.

Yeah, that's all up to you. Steve Ellis. Do I have Evan Taylor? I don't see him. I think he left.

Steve Ellis, Ward 4. Three things tonight. First of all, a brief commentary on the issue about first readings and the consent docket that came up. This is from sort of a Robert's Rules perspective since I'm pretty familiar with that. Even if there weren't any consent docket, it would be necessary to have a first reading according to Oklahoma law. But the first reading doesn't have to be unanimous. Councilmember or group of councilmembers who don't want an item to even appear on an agenda can and should vote no even at first reading if they don't want to see it. We don't usually do that that way because there's usually consensus on what ought to be on the agenda, but if city council members are interested in affecting the agenda, then doing what y'all did tonight, which was to take a couple of things off and have a vote on them is perfectly justified, makes good sense. I'm glad you brought it up, Councilmember Kirby. Second point. First, I want to thank First Presbyterian for being our temporary shelter. I know that Councilmember Gansberry was, I think, the first person to sort of point this out in public that the state fire marshal basically shut down a friend's house yesterday. And First Presbyterian has picked up the slack, which is very, very good luck on them. Thank you very much. And I want to commend the other churches that were also willing to sort of take our unhoused people. I think we're finally getting some leadership from the private sector on this issue, and I couldn't be more happy about that. Now for the pain in the ass one. I'm really glad that you guys postponed the... the issue on the mall. I am glad to have another couple of weeks to convince you that not every investment is a good investment, that it's possible to delay spending your money and not getting a sufficient return on investment to make that happen. And we know just from the raw numbers, forget diversion, which is actually the big issue here, that in order to understand what our return on investment is for this mall rebate, it has to be the case that the mall increases its amount of money over twice of what the but-for condition is. And it's very important to see the but-for condition is not the level at which they get the subsidy, it's the level at which they would achieve profits already. So you've got to do some economic analysis to see what would happen but for. You've got to do some economic analysis on various scenarios to see how they would grow if you gave them the subsidy and make that comparison. And you know just from the raw numbers that they'd have to grow at over twice the rate. That's highly unlikely, but The key thing, which came up tonight, and I cannot believe this was not more decisive, we know that the mall competes with everything else in Norman. Diversion is almost a guarantee here. If the mall is competing with UTC to get this mystery client, then odds are Norman's going to get the damn tax money anyway. Why would we pay over half that amount of taxes in order to get them all to win this competition when we would get the money anyway. It makes zero sense. And if that's not easy for you to see, you should think about stepping away from doing economic development policy because you don't know what you're doing.

Marguerite Larson.

Margaret Larson, Ward 6. So really what I was concerned about was the data center that has taken off of the agenda. And I am deeply, deeply disturbed that this council would even entertain a data center anywhere in Norman. You can look at the statistics and you know that it's not healthy. It impacts the environment. And it really doesn't do anything for the community as a whole. So I was really hoping that should the data center come back up that all of you unanimously say we are done and we're not having it and barred. And that's what the majority of other cities are doing nationwide. And I think we should follow suit. So that was all I had to say. Thank you.

Mayumi?

Hello again, Miami Wind Lawyer Ward 2. So I guess was it yesterday, I was looking at the agenda and it was like items eight and 10 about the judges. And then today I was looking at the budget book and I got to the municipal court section where the judges were in this dotted box that says, that they're not actually counted within the municipal court section of the money. So where do they get paid from? Just curious about that. And I feel like there was something else, but I'm tired. So good night.

Paul Arcaroli.

It is a gift, so I'll move forward and say thank you so much for delaying, and hopefully we'll have more reasons to make clear-eyed, clear-headed decisions about a business decision, not an emotional one, not an institutional one, but about the dollars and cents of this deal and what it really does for the city. And I appreciate the new city council member in Ward 5 for his fire in his belly, and I think that I've seen that in everybody here at one point, and I know it's hard to maintain that. And it's not lost on me how hard this job is, believe me. I appreciate it. And even though I may be hard occasionally, I do spend a lot of my time working to elect and to keep people on council that have that fire. And I'll continue to do that. That's my contribution. Thank you so much.

Alex Lanphier.

Alex Lanphier, Ward 2. I watched a special session meeting about the homeless camping on residential land earlier. And I think we all knew that that item was a joke of a proposal and a non-solution. I don't think it was a good idea. And I saw through that as soon as I saw it on the agenda. However, I do believe the city should take the lead on solving the homelessness camp issue since the Operation Safe incident was such a disaster. I hated seeing that. And work towards expanding the temporary shelter between now and the time the permanent one gets built. I know that's a big ask, but something has to be done. I mean, obviously what we have right now is not working. So yeah, I think the city should do something about that. I appreciate every one of you that has been helping out with that. That's awesome. Another idea is maybe looking at a city sanctioned campsite. I mean, again, not a great idea, but it's something. Other cities do it. I'd like to see some efforts towards that. This problem is not going away. The Oklahoma heat will probably kill people this summer. So take this seriously and thank you.

Tina Steiffmiller. She's not here. Phillip Starr. No. Brian Zortman. Russell Rice. I'm Jocelyn Guzman. Taylor Sanchez Guzman. That's all.

Anyone else that has not spoken that would like to speak?

All right, I started off with this meeting at my house watching it on YouTube. And then I had to come down because of the first reading of what Mr. Kirby, Councilman Kirby was talking about. And I was looking at the map of that area. If you look at where they made the roads, they've been planning this for a long time. The roads are made so they can just go ahead and go right on up that area of what is supposed to be a park. And if we are going to give up park space, and you know what? The city's put a lot of money in that area. They built a playground. There's some tennis courts over there now. The city's on its way. There's a nice little marker. I guess it's from the guy that actually donated the land, I guess, for that park. And so if the city's going to give that park away, or part of that park away you know what that needs to be we need to get something for that and that needs to be low-income housing but in general god ain't making no more land as they say I guarantee, again, I'm sorry for being emotional about the mall, but I'm tired of Ward 2 and Ward 3. And everybody thinks, well, that's Brookhaven. You know what? There's a lot of things south of Robinson that's in those wards. And you know what? It's very low income. And we do everything for downtown. We do everything for Ward 8. Everybody else wants a tiff here and a tiff there. It makes me mad that the area and the people that I know and live in in this town goes down, down, down while every other ward gets everything they want. You know what? We should move the Norman's Art Festival from downtown to the mall or somewhere in that area. You know what? Do something to help us out. Yes, you widened Lindsay. What did you do? You drove a lot of businesses out of Lindsay. A lot of places that I used to buy down that Lindsay corridor, right where I live, are now gone. Now, Ray's, thank God, great place to go for barbecue, moved on the other side of the highway. But look at that whole section on the other side of the highway south of the mall. Yes, Ward 8 has cannibalized the areas that I live in and it's a poor area and a lot of people take the bus in those areas. The mall is somewhere that people can get to. And I don't know, I'm tired of my ward. Ward three where a lot of the people I live in or I know from a lot of those apartments down there are Getting left behind So what are you gonna do about it? And are you gonna start a war between? Economic areas of the city because that's what you're doing if you vote this down $300,000 investment just like the councilman from Ward 8 was talking about. You know, we can go for the but fours, but fours, but fours. And usually I agree with his but fours watching them on YouTube. But in this case, it's very simple. They have to bring in more tax money and they get a little bit of it back and you get to put an investment in an area of the city that has been ignored for years. that you're letting decline, decline, decline.

Thank you, Mr. Johnson.

Thank you.

after we're, anybody else that hasn't spoken? Looks like there's a reporter, and Steve Ellis has already spoken, so, okay. All right, any further comment from Council, Council Member Gansby, and I'll just come down and see.

and up and everything, to get it on the record and everything else. And the same because of anybody else, anything anybody's asked me to do or anything like that. In my opening remarks, the comments that I made were mine and mine only. They do not represent the city's opinion, the city's expertise or anything as such. And as a councilman that's still in his first year, I learned from things that I might, when I overstep, but I also take ownership of those when I might overstep. So anything that I said, That might have seemed like I blurred the lines or anything like that was unintentional on my part, and I apologize for it.

Council Member Grant. A point of clarification.

Items six and seven that were removed were development items. The ordinance on the moratorium was item nine, and that was passed, and it will be up for second and final reading on June 23rd. Thank you. Council Member Kirby.

I just wanted to start I did not mean to mislead anybody think that they're going to take out a part its park land is the type of zoning. It actually will not impact the part that they have built so we as a city won't be losing the park itself so there was no it's it was the zoning of that particular land. No part that has been built will be affected by this. And then secondly, I wanted just to say you should never apologize for the fire in your belly. You should come up in here and you should speak. I love it when people come up in here and speak. We are elected to represent people. So when you come up here and you make your voice heard, we know what we are supposed to be doing. So thank you for that, too.

Okay, well, Council, we are not done. We have the executive session to wrap up. Council Member Dixon.

I was just going to say, good job, everybody. This meeting started about 6.40. It's 10.16. And we approved one preliminary plat tonight. That's what we did. That's all we did. Good job, guys.

There's been a request for a five minute break to go into executive session.

Five minute break and then meet up in there and we'll get that taken care of and get out of here. All right, this meeting is adjourned. Thank you.