Transportation Advisory Board - Regular Meeting

Hello. Hello. Hello.

Good afternoon, everyone. The building review board meeting for 05/21/2025 is now called to order. We'll start with roll call. I will call each of the board members' last names. Please let me know if you're here. First is Brenham. Here. Gross. Hansen. Here. Agnes? Here. Hoya? Here. Llewellyn? Here. Nalwala? Yet. Roman, that's me here. Wanner?

Okay, so we do have a quorum. So I wanted to start with the public forum. Our first item of business is the public forum. Are there any members of the public that wish to speak on matters other than items that are on the agenda today? Those that wish to speak on a specific agenda item will be provided with an opportunity to do so at this time. Members wishing to speak shall state their name and address for their record. So are there anybody who wants to speak on items other than agenda items? Come on up, please. Thank you.

Afternoon. My name is Paul Defenbaugh, address 1508 Maple Knoll Court, Naperville. And today, I'm representing the Naperville Environment and Sustainability Task Force, or NEST. And at last month's BRB meeting, NEST introduced the topic of Naperville adopting the Illinois Stretch Energy Code. And today, I'd like to continue that conversation.

For background, in 2021, the state adopted the Climate Equitable Jobs Act, CEJA, which included a provision to create a statewide energy code. And this became the Illinois stretch energy code and became available for municipalities to adopt about a year ago in June 2024. A couple of notes about the stretch code. It's an alternative energy code that goes beyond the minimum base energy code requirements. The 2006 IECC was used as a baseline for the reductions in energy use intensity.

And the IECC's twenty twenty four residential and the twenty twenty one commercial codes were used as references for the stretch code. The stretch code, it mandates a higher use of energy efficiency for both new construction and major renovations, encompassing both commercial and residential buildings. And upon adoption, the stretch code replaces the state energy code. It aims to incrementally increase energy efficiency, and it will be updated every three years. Municipality such as Naperville has the option to adopt only the commercial stretch code or the residential or both.

And it offers three compliance pathways, the prescriptive path, energy rating index, and the performance pathway. Illinois isn't alone in offering municipalities this type of advanced energy code. Minnesota, Colorado, and Massachusetts have also adopted stretch codes. And here in Illinois, city of Evanston has recently adopted it. Adopting the stretch code would put Naperville on a path to increasing energy efficiency in buildings and homes and reduce its greenhouse gas emissions.

It will safeguard buildings from extreme weather, improve indoor air quality, future proof new buildings, and ultimately save our residents and businesses money on their utility bills. Because this is so significant, NEST would like to have the opportunity to organize a full presentation on the stretch code at another meeting so that you'll be able to hear more in-depth information about the code and ask questions. We'll work with staff, with Mark, to do this at a future meeting of the BRB. And of course, we're always available to answer any questions. And I believe that Mark has distributed an FAQ sheet to you that you can refer to now. But thank you very much. Talk to you later.

Thank you. Anybody else for the public forum today? All right. Hearing none, we'll get to reports and recommendations. This afternoon, we have two items to consider. First is the approval of the meeting minutes from the last building review board meeting. Do any of the commissioners have any corrections or clarifications on the April minutes as drafted? Okay. Hearing none, I'd like to go for a voice vote. All those in favor say aye.

Aye. Any opposed? Okay, none opposed. So that gets approved. The second item of business today is a continuation of 04/24/2025, BRB agenda item considering a variance to Section five-1E-two, Subsection two of the Naperville Municipal Code prohibition of PCVC CPVC and PEC's for domestic water supply piping, BRB case number 112. So we'll start with a staff presentation, please.

You. My name is Mark Dudash, chief building official for the city in Naperville. Good afternoon. I want to reiterate that city staff does not support this requested variance to the city Of Naperville Municipal Code. We have a responsibility to maintain the level of quality in our required building products and have a history of doing so by amending the various building codes adopted here in the city.

Plastic piping is allowed in the Uniform Plumbing Code, the International Plumbing Code, and the Illinois Plumbing Code. But again, this code is the bare minimum and Naperville chooses to require a higher standard. Just like we amended in the National Electric Code to prohibit Romex which is non metallic sheath cable we choose to require a higher level of quality in our products Wood foundations are actually allowed in the international residential code. But again, we amended that out because that's ridiculous. We also require fencing around swimming pools, around in ground swimming pools.

We require, if it's an in ground swimming pool, that the safety barrier meets the Consumer Product Safety Committee's recommendations. The International Building Code and the International Fire Code, there are numerous amendments to the automatic fire sprinkler and standpipe requirements. Naperville has a long history of amending the base codes to be more stringent and requiring copper domestic water supply piping continues that tradition. If this variance is approved, will it apply to this project only? That question was asked at the last meeting.

Yes, absolutely. Technically, that is the way that this works. But we know how this is going to play out. This will apply to all projects moving forward. Large, small, it doesn't matter. So we can either fight that every month in this meeting in front of you guys discussing the same thing over and over again. Or we could just repeal the amendment to the Illinois plumbing code. I choose to reject this and avoid that. Most importantly, this is a variance request. And for a variance, you have to prove hardship.

Money is not a hardship. It's not considered a hardship. Where is the hardship in this project? Because if we approve it without a hardship, then it applies across the board. And like I said before, we're going to be here every month debating the same thing over and over again. So I think that we will be setting a very dangerous precedent by approving this variance. Again, that's we recommend not approving this requested variance. Thank you.

Thank you, Mark. Do we have an applicant presentation to be made today?

Good afternoon. Elliot Milliken with Hines. No formal presentation. We just wanted to have our slides pulled up for reference and let you know we're available for any questions if they apply. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Elliot. Any questions from the building review board to the applicant or to the staff?

Question, Mark. Has this variance been requested before? It has. Most recently in 2019, it was for a single family home addition. Did lose or it was not passed, but it lost four to two.

Anybody else have any questions? So last time we were here, asked one of the questions was, if this doesn't get approved, does the project move forward? And the answer was affirmative, the project does move forward. Just to follow-up with that, I was wondering what hardship would the project or the developer incur if this project or this approval did not happen? Is there a specific hardship other than maybe cost?

So in addition to cost, would just be time. Just the time of installation for the system we've proposed would be faster. It does install faster. So that would be it. Thank you, Elliot.

So no questions? Any questions from public? Public testimony? Anybody want to have any questions at this time? Or speak? Yeah. Yeah, public testimony, you're welcome to come up and speak. And please provide your name and address for the record.

Hello, Ward. Jim Mansfield, 1979 Ridgemore Drive in Bartlett, Illinois. I've had the luxury of being a licensed plumber for many years. I've done many projects in your town. Part of my job is to protect your residents as a plumber and install especially potable water to the system the way it's supposed to be done.

A couple of things I'd like you to think about as you make your decisions here. You know, going to PEX piping, know, the microplastics that are involved with it, which is a petroleum product that's found in the human blood. You know, they say they say that the effect becomes far greater as a health risk than the current issue of lead used in the plumbing systems, and even greater risk for personnel that are installing these products. All I get what I'd like to ask you is, what is the price of your public health in your residence? I'm here in non support of the variance.

I ask you to vote no on it. Thank you.

Thank you.

Good afternoon. I'm Dan McEvoy, DuPage County plumbing inspector. We went through this probably ten, fifteen years ago when the state decided they weren't going to allow any amendments to the code. But then they decided to do that, so we had to go. And all our board members and our residents didn't want the plastic.

And I'm the inspector. I'll inspect whatever they want. But I feel strongly just as them to not allow the PEX or PVC, the CPVC. And once we started investigating it, DuPage County EPA got involved. And I was amazed at all the stuff that the it because it's a petroleum product that are are harmful to the installers and the leaching. I don't know if any of you remember. Yeah. I'm 66 years old. Back in grammar school, we did an experiment just in grammar school where we took baggies. You didn't have the ziplock baggies back then, but you had to take water in a baggie, suspend that in another jar of water, and then pour red dye in the in the in the one.

By the end of the weekend, when you came back to school, plastic leaches. The molecules are so far greater part that outside and inside mix with each other. So plastic is one thing that it leaches And it leaches the chemicals. And most of the plastic is a petroleum product. But I also have two, in addition to the microplastics and the impact of petroleum exposure sources.

The Journal of Environmental and Public Health leads to reduction in blood components. The toxic effect can inhibit and destroy I can't pronounce this one hematophytic Hematophatic component in red bone marrow, imbalance in immune system, influence TH cell function, increase sensitivity to autoimmune development, hypersensitivity, cancer, and infectious diseases. That was just from the Journal of Environmental and Public Health. And Medical News Today and The Guardian are big reports about the microplastics in our blood systems. I also have a daughter that works at Northwestern in the laboratory.

So that's a big concern of hers and especially, you know, she get my kids would get mad at me for using plastic straws. And dioxin is a petroleum product. It's found in plastics. It's one of the most toxic chemicals known to science. So like Jim mentioned, what price do we put on the public safety?

We need to be proactive in protecting the health and safety of the public environment, installation personnel of potential contamination of petroleum products, plastics, and the toxic effects, leaching, dioxin, and microplastics through the consumption of of our drinking water, inhalation and skin exposure. And that involves all the chemicals involved in putting some of this this piping together, in addition to the future disposal of nonrecyclable products in landfills, which also leach, and in our lakes and oceans and its inhabitants. Thank you. Thank you, Dan.

Hi. Jim Majerowitz, Chicago resident, state of Illinois resident my whole life. I'm standing against this proposal on many reasons. I'm also a licensed plumber, City Of Chicago, licensed state of Illinois plumber, licensed state plumbing inspector. I write code for the ICC group.

I write code for IATMO. So I understand they are minimum codes very well because I do write codes for both of them organizations. And I said this last time, there are minimum code of standards. And I'll just quote why I'm here right now, a statement from the largest plastic pipe manufacturer in The United States, the owner of that company. And the quotation was, I wouldn't put that stuff in my house.

That's a quote from the largest plastic pipe manufacturer in The United States. All right, A few other topics. You may hear, they may publish stuff about, oh, it freezes and thaws. All right. But there's fittings in there. The fittings split open much faster than copper tube and split apart during freezing conditions. And guess what? We're far enough north here where we do have freezing weather. Fire. We need to realize this material burns.

Yes. They put it in some of the other codes. And it's there. And got put in there because, you know, I'm going to build a building that could last a year or two. As the builder, I'm happy, not the homeowners.

I quoted I said something last time about sixty minutes, full hour on it, How they tried to blame well, Shell Oil tried to blame the manufacturers not the manufacturers, but the plumbers installing it. And after all the lawsuits and so forth, at the end, Shell Oil was at fault, along with Celcon, Celanese was at fault for that. Same method of putting this stuff together, no different. So I don't think that we want to put a material in that's not time tested. Yes, in Europe, it may have time tested of forty years.

But in Europe, they don't use chlorine to sanitize water. United States, they use chlorine to sanitize water. And a few years back, the manufacturers this is a short time back. They put a layer of what they call chlorine inhibitor in the tube that they're talking about very recently. It's not time tested because if it would be the same stuff that they put in in Europe, it wouldn't last at all because of the chlorine. And there's plenty of studies that are out there.

I've got

a paper here if anybody wants it about the chlorine, chlorine dioxide. The other thing that plastics have a very difficult time with is UV light. And some people put UV sanitizers on their where the water comes in their building or their well system or whatever. And guess what? You can't put plastic anywhere near UV.

You put any type of plastic, most plastics, out in the sun, from all that UV light, it's not going to last. Everybody's seen it, what happens to clothes that are left in a closet that has a window there with no shades on it and stuff. It changes colors right away and stuff. If you see light fixtures that have plastic covers on there, after a time frame, the plastic covers start to brown and change colors. These are things that we see with our own eyes what happens to different plastics.

So we have to realize that UV, not a good thing for plastic. We're in a room right now where there's UV. If the curtains were there, pulled open all the time, and there'd be plastics there, the plastics deteriorate. The old vinyl seat covers in cars, the vinyl dash covers in cars. What happens if we all had one of the cars and they're all cracked open and stuff like that?

Is it what this close material maybe not the exact same thing. But we have to realize this is the type of material base that this is coming from, cross linked polyethylene. That's what they say it is. Again, they put different materials in there. We already heard other people talk about leaching.

Yes, leaching's there. There's other reports that deal with biofilms in the piping material where we could grow Legionella. Copper, copper, naturally antimicrobial. That's why it's in the code, to save people's lives. Because we don't know what it's going to look like in the future with this plastic everywhere.

You heard we got the PFAS in the water. We got well water. Shanahan, they're telling people now, the water department there along with the Illinois EPA, put filters on your water because it's in all the water here. Put two micron filters at every faucet. I don't know if this is the direction it's going, but it's very possible if we start putting too much of this in.

All right? Again, chlorine don't agree with it. Chlorine dioxide don't agree with plastic. UV light don't agree with plastic. And then, oh, I neglected to say, yes, I'm a certified plumbing engineer by American Society of Plumbing Engineers.

I've been there for well over thirty years. I've been a licensed plumber pushing fifty years. And when I heard on sixty Minutes, better than sliced bread, there had to be a catch to this type of material. And I guess that is the catch. And they want to do the experiment in your community. I'd hate to see an experiment in your community. This is public safety and health. Thank you for listening to me.

Thank you, Jim.

Good afternoon. Paul Hennerlong, Naperville, three and a half years on the Planning and Zoning Commission, fourteen years as a city councilman. So to answer Mr. Hansen's question about how the vote went in 2019, it was four-two at the BRB. It was nine-zero against, So it was not allowed.

It was a nine-zero vote at the council level. Here before you today, just to reiterate all what's been said, what staff has said, they're spot on. You've got one hundred and fifty years of plumbers here, licensed plumbers, that have been doing plumbing for one hundred and fifty years between all of us. We know what we're talking about when we look at this stuff. You've got over one hundred years of staff experience in the building technologies that are adamantly against this.

Listen to the people that are doing it for a living. Those are the people that know what they're talking about in cases, the people that put it in. All right? We do have a higher standard in Naperville. And I'll tell you what, every general contractor that comes to Naperville, or any plumber that comes to Naperville who does work in Naperville is glad to be in Naperville, doing what Naperville requires, because it's the right way of doing things, bar none.

Like I said, we have the best codes. We have the best staff watching over all the installation of it. Everyone knows you buy in Naperville, you're getting quality. Everybody knows that in the building community. That's why Naperville house is selling about a day, day and a half nowadays, most of the time for over asking price, too.

So you've got all this experience and know how. And also, just to make another thing here, as a councilman on the planning and zoning board, you rule by justification of variances, and if they meet what they're supposed to, to justify that. Cost is not justifiable, like Mark said. All this is trying to save money, come to Naperville, trying to make the biggest buck they can. I get it.

They're in business. But don't gut our codes on it. Find it in other finishes or whatever to find your savings. But you don't go in and start on the mechanicals. That's not the right way.

It's not the right way. That's the most important part of the building. I was just recently at a state inspectors, which I hold a license for, as well as a plumbing license, just at a continuing education seminar, we have to have fourteen hours of continuing it every year to hold our inspector's license. So we had a six hour class a couple Fridays ago. There's a guy in from Boston, And he says, well, I'm glad all you guys are here.

And you go by the International Plumbing Code. And the whole place just roared. Just like, no, we don't go by that. That's the standards we're talking about here. We have our own codes. Like I said, the whole room went nuts. We have a lot of pride in what we do here in Illinois. If you take a look at the pictures I gave you with the use of pecs, if you go through them, that's in a senior housing apartment building, 48 unit apartment building just west of here. That's what you're going to get. That's what PEX is.

That's how it's installed. And if you continue on and then see the copper in the walls, that's a house here in Naperville I got those pictures from. What would you rather have in your home? I think it's a no brainer. Between staff's recommendations and these pictures, I don't think any of you people would want this kind of quality or product in your homes. I hope not. Thank you for your time and your service. Thank you.

Thank you, Paul. Any other public testimony?

Good afternoon. My name is Mike Richardson. I'm the plumbing inspector for Naperville. I'm a plumber for over thirty years. I've been with Naperville for six years.

Just a few points that have brought up. I mean, far as the speed for installation, there's not much difference. I mean, yes, plastic can be a little quicker. But copper, with the new technology with press fittings, bigger fittings, is a lot faster than for CPBC piping. The larger pipes that they propose takes a while as far as and gluing each installing.

Also, the glue itself, it's high. The fumes are not good to breathe in. So it would have to have ventilation for the workers inside the building. I'd also like to say copper piping is also used for med gas. Med gas for oxygen, which in hospitals, if you need oxygen, you have copper piping.

The oxygen goes through the copper piping because of the characteristics, the makeup inside of copper pipe. So to me there, it's a good product, great product. We've had some big projects just as big as this. We never had any kind of drawback as far as can we use different materials for water service. Basically, they know what they expect here in Naperville, which is the highest standards.

And the best thing about Naperville one of the best things about Naperville is its water quality, which comes from Lake Michigan and copper piping. So thank you.

Thank you, Mike. Any other public testimony?

Elliot Milliken again. I'd like the opportunity just to respond to a few of the items that were said.

Go ahead, Elliot.

So first, regarding the flammability of the material. So CPVC and PEX A and I want to be very clear, as I was in the previous presentation, we're talking specifically about PEX A. Not all PEX is created equal. So these materials are 20 fivefifty smoke rated, which is required by building code that these materials be rated for that fire rating. Additionally, I'm certainly not going to talk poorly about copper.

Copper is a wonderful product. But if we're out to find anything wrong with any product, copper also corrodes. It oxidizes when exposed to water and air. There are just no absolutely perfect building products out there. So I want to make that clear that nothing is perfect. So copper is a wonderful product. I'm not going to say anything more than that. Regarding freezing, all pipe in this project will be in conditioned space. It's in walls and ceilings. Regarding exposure to UV light, it's absolutely right.

Plastic is not friendly to UV light. But again, all of our piping in this project will be in walls and ceilings, will not be exposed to UV light. For antimicrobial issues, what we did present previously a month ago, last month, is that the smoother surfaces of CPVC and PEXA actually make them more resistant to antimicrobial growth. The leading cause of Legionella and those things that you get in water is primarily related to water storage temperatures and water velocity. So when you have stagnant water at a warm temperature, you're more likely to grow.

But when you store it at 140 degrees in a proper heating tank and you have your piping sized correctly, your system's going to be okay. But our pipe material for PEX A and CPVC is not more susceptible to those issues. I don't know the pictures you have in front of you that you're able to see, but we did have example pictures of installations of CPVC and PEX A from previous projects. That would be our standard for this. It can certainly be installed poorly, as any material can be installed poorly, if you allow it.

And regarding copper for med gas applications, I would not argue with that. Copper is absolutely the right material for a medical gas application. But domestic water is a different application. We're operating at a lower temperature or I'm sorry, a lower pressure than medical gas, and also moving at a much lower velocity than medical gas would. So that's all I have to say. Thank you.

Thank you, Elliot. Anybody else?

I'd like to comment on that too. Dan McEvoy, DuPage County plumbing inspector. And I also been a plumber since the seventies. The state recently, probably going back five years, was thinking about raising the temperature that your water had to be heated at at a water heater to one eighty. Alright?

And that's to kill Legionella and other things. And they were proposing to have us mixing valves like you would have in hospitals or commercials right at the water heater to bring it down to one twenty after that to kill the legionella and bacteria. The next year or two years later, they decided to bring that temperature down to 160. Why? Because the plastic CPVC couldn't handle it.

PEX can't handle it at all. So so are we trying to protect the public health or just kinda sorta? So and you're gonna go through this big project and maybe maybe this gets approved. Are you gonna have to take it out because the state changed their code and requiring the water at your heater to be heated hotter than the piping can handle it? That's just another concern, too. And that's an ongoing thing with the state. It's not certain, but that's what the talks with the heater manufacturers and everybody else involved in that. Thank you.

Thank you, Dan. Any other testimony? Okay, so with that, I'd like to open it up for board discussion. Does the board members have any questions, comments, concerns that they would like to discuss? Okay, hearing none, I'd like to request a motion to not recommend approval of the variance to section five-1E-two subsection two of the Naperville Municipal Code prohibition of CPVC and PEC's for domestic water piping Building Review Board case 112.

I'd like to have one of the board members request a motion for that, please.

I'll request a motion.

Second? I'll second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. All those opposed say nay. Mark, do you have something to add?

Anise, can you just be clear on what approving? Sure.

So this was a motion to not recommend approval of the variance. With that, it passes that it's not being approved, just to be clear. All right, so next item is old business. We don't believe there's any old business today. Any members have any new business to discuss today?

Okay, with that, I'd like to entertain a motion to adjourn our meeting.

So moved.

Second? I'll second. All those who approve, aye. Aye. Any nays? Aye. Meeting is adjourned. Thank you.