Planning Board - Regular Meeting

That's That's the open That's the opening bell, everybody. I'll wait for that to stop because it's kind of Good morning, everybody. This is the Nags Head Planning Board meeting for Tuesday, October 21st. And our first order of business, welcome everyone, will be to approve our agenda for the day. Can I make a motion to approve it? Have a motion. Second. All in favor? I. Okay. Anybody opposed? Let's move on to public comment. Is there anybody in the audience who would like to speak to us this morning? Please step up, sir. Good to see you. And if you just give us your name and where you live, that would be helpful.

My name is John Cece, president. Um, lived here for 25 years. Uh start things off. I preface I don't have any comments dealing with any of today's agenda items. Uh I'm a volunteer with the local sea turtle conservation group, the network for endangered sea turtles nest and we have started an initiative to address and hopefully minimize and reduce the lighting on the beach. Um we've noticed a trend recently over the last couple years. Um historically for the year 12 years I've been doing this working with sea turtles Naget has always been the top town as far as most number of nests from Net Unfortunately last couple of years the numbers in Naget have been dropping and all the turtles seem to be heading north coral cor unknown reasons we think a contributing factor may be lights on the beach research has shown that the sea turtles avoid the lights on the beach. So, what we'd like to do is we'd like to work with you, the town, and some of the engineers and stuff here to address this issue. Hopefully, we're we're interested in getting involved in the beginning of the process rather than the end of the process where we're retrofitting lights. We think it's more cost effective to address put in correct lights or improved lights at the beginning of the process rather than paying to take out a perfectly good light and replace it with an improved one. So, like to introduce ourselves and hopefully we can work with you in the future and get involved. We're in the process of applying for some grants uh to hopefully pay for some of these issues and improve some of these things. So, we'd like to continue these discussions with you in the future in the town and hopefully we can work on some things and improve that situation.

Great. Thank you so much for your comments this morning. Anybody else want to make public comment? All right. Thank you very much. We'll move on then to the approval of uh the minutes from our September 16th meeting. Please, can I make a motion to approve them? I have a motion to approve the minutes as submitted. Second. All in favor? I. Anybody opposed? Great. Moving on to our action items. Then action item one is consider consideration of a vested right special use site plan amendment on behalf of Nags Head Church for expansion of the parking lot. Kelly's up first. Good morning.

Good morning. Get all situated up here. I apologize. To start out, um I will put the site plan for Nag Head Church up on the projector so we can look at that um as we go through this request. Um So looking at your screen, you have Southside Road on the north through here. Um here is the existing church. Um existing parking is shown in this gray and then you have proposed additional parking um in this area. And you can see a little path going back. Um and then we have some storm water management measures here. Um, so with that said, I'll run through your staff report. Um, and some of you may remember this. This item actually came before the planning board and board of commissioners back in 2023. Um, this is the exact same plan that was submitted in 2023. It was just the um site plan approval has expired, so they're wanting to have it reapproved. Um, let's see here. All right. So, as mentioned, um this is a vested right site plan amendment request um on behalf of Nags Head Church. Um this is for the expansion of the parking lot and relocation of a storage shed. Um I didn't show you the storage shed first, but it's going to be right uh right here where the cursor is. That's the proposed um relocated storage shed. Um the property is located at 105 West

Soundside Road. The property is zoned R2 um medium density residential. Um there the zoning around there is a mixture of R2 um and then we have C5 across the highway. Um flood zone. This property is in an X flood zone, but we do have a higher um local elevation standard which is nine. So, there's a note in here that depending on the size of the shed, if it's 300 square feet or greater, the shed will have to meet the regulatory based flood elevation. If it's less than 300 square feet, they do not have to meet the um regulatory based flood elevation, but they will have to provide flood vents. So, that was just a note in your staff report, so you would be aware of that. Um, as far as the use goes, religious complex is a special use within the R2 medium density residential zoning district. Um, we have a section in there that talks about what's considered minor modifications versus major modifications. Minor modifications would be a minor site plan amendment. We can approve that administratively. This scope of work rose to a major modification. So it had to come before the planning board um and then subsequently the board of commissioners lot coverage for this um is well within compliance. They can be at 45% they're at 22.9. There are no structures uh that we need to look at in regard of height and architectural design. So, for parking, that's spelled out in section um article 10 of the town code. And they should provide one parking space for every four seats in the sanctuary. When you do those numbers, they should have a total of 97 parking spaces. And

they do have right at 97. Um but the request is being made because they're noticing an overlap in their services. um they have multiple and so while one is wrapping up uh you have parishioners coming in for the next um uh the next service. So they wanted to address that overlap and have some additional parking there for them. Um for buffering and landscaping uh they do have to provide a small portion of buffer where the new parking is adjacent to Southside Road. They've shown that on their landscape plan. Um they do have to provide a commercial transitional protective yard which is a 10- foot wide buffer with two rows of plantings um here along this southern boundary where they abut residential properties. Um that's been noted on their site plan as well. For interior parking lot landscaping, uh they need to provide landscaping at a minimum um rate equal to 10% of the total area of parking spaces. Based upon that, they would need about um 2,600 square feet and they've proposed 2,900 square feet. So, they're compliant with that regard. Um also, in terms of landscaping and preservation, they have an option to preserve 10% of their site area or replant 15%. Um they are they have a really large property as you can see as it trails back off to the west. Um and so they're preserving over 48% of their existing natural vegetation. So they meet that requirement as well. Um they are proposing some new lighting. They had those specs in their pla in their packet um and we reviewed that. That's compliant with their codes right now. Um there's no additional signage.

They do have approval from the Dair County Health Department. Um the town engineer has reviewed traffic circulation as well as storm water management and found compliance in both of those areas. Um as with any project, it has to be compliant with the fire prevention code and um our public works director did review the proposed site plan um and they have approved the location of the new dumpster pad um for front load. So everything um based upon our staff analysis looks good with this one. Um staff based upon our review would recommend approval as it's been presented. And I'm happy to answer any questions that you may have today. We have Mike Morway from Alamoral um engineering and a representative from the church here with us today if you have questions.

Kelly, maybe I missed it or um how many spots we talked about adding Um, they have it. We got 97 now. Is that right? They have 97. And

let's see here. Should be might be in our numbers over here. uh 42 new parking spaces. It's um it's right here on your notes in let me blow this up so everybody can see it. 138.

So here we go. How could I miss that? I had too. Thank you. Anybody else have questions for Kelly?

So, the lighting is a pretty substantial change though, but you said it's compliant. Yes. So, the fixture they proposed, it's a shoe box. It's full cut off. It's under 30,00 um and the phototric plan that was provided is um compliant with our book handles. Okay. No other questions for Kelly. Do we want to hear from the applicant? Did you want to speak to us, Mr. Mo? Anybody? Unless you guys have questions of it, if you don't mind so that anybody watching, if you'll step up, please just and then if anybody does have a question for you, you'll be up there.

So, uh, we're a church that's experiencing a lot of good growth and, um, and we're noticing that one of the things that's also causing a problem for us is once upon Probably 20 years ago, the whole family showed up in a single vehicle. And today, it's pretty common that if you got a family of three or four, that they're showing up in at least two vehicles. And that's part of the issue that's come up causing a problem for us. Um, our sanctuary can hold 299. Um, well, that's what we're regulated for, but we actually can only fit 272 seats in there. And so we got 272 seats there, but we cannot um so we could have a absolutely full parking lot, but the auditorium still has plenty of space. And that's that's one of the things we're also trying to solve with this as well. Um there isn't a whole lot of uh there, but it's uh but this would absolutely solve that problem and future proof us on it. Do you have a feel for whether this will um alleviate the parking on the side of the road in what's technically a no parking zone?

Oh yeah, it's uh we've actually we ran the math on that and it absolutely would. That would go away. Um we've been having to be creative. Like one of the things you can't see as much is uh behind it there's a grassy spot that where the new parking is actually going to show up and our the people who serve off services like the band for the church and things like that. They're all backing up their vehicles in there and making it real fun when everything's over with and they have to take turns to make sure the right person gets out in the right order. But uh but it'll solve all that too. It makes all that go away. Yeah. Yeah. And I see that too even with the parking on the road. It's because people will be there first,

I assume, to allow for, you know, members and congregants to use the parking lot. So sometime, you know, those spaces along the side of the road get filled first. Yeah. And um yeah, we've gotten to the point now where they're u three vehicles deep, which is also called. So we've actually removed a few of the bumpers on our up towards the front so that the people who are all the way at the front could actually get out through our park uh our main parking rate by driving off the grass onto the parking because they can't go backwards because there's two strangers they don't know parked behind them.

And uh so it's it's gotten interesting. our our parking lot team has been absolutely amazing and creative with this stuff. But it's uh but all all of this goes away and we don't we won't have those problems anymore. And we know that that's become a deterrent for some people of like where I want to go there but uh the parking's a mess. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Anybody else have questions for the applicant? Okay, great. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right, let's talk about it. We've seen this. We've seen this before in 23. Yeah.

Anybody have questions, concerns, new concerns? Some people weren't here in 23, but no concerns. Okay. Make a motion then we approve. I'll second. Okay. So, I have a motion and a second to approve as submitted. Any other discussion? All in favor? Anybody opposed? Great. Moving on then to item two. Thank you very much. Thank you. Consideration of site plan amendment um submitted by Alborne Associates on behalf of Coastal Bluewater Capital and TWW's outdoor outfitters for expansion of storage space between the existing retail store and the existing storage building.

Miss wide again.

Yes. So like before I'll try to put the um the overall site plan upstead of walking you guys through the staff report. Okay. So, I think um hopefully this is large enough for people to see it. Um what we have is the site plan for TWWs. We have 158. Um over here on the right side of the screen, we have um Satderfield Landing to the north. This is is going to be the existing principal structure. Uh this is over here is the existing um accessory structure. And then what we're talking about is this area here in the the dark old lines. As you had already noted, Alvin Marlin and Associates um submitted this site plan amendment request on behalf of Blue Water Capital. um for TWW's outfitters. Um this is for construction of a 4,774 square ft of additional storage space between the existing retail store and the existing storage building. The property is located at 2230 South Croatian Highway and it is zoned C2 general commercial. Um adjoining properties are also generally

zoned um as well. Uh flood hazard. This property is located in an X zone, but as we mentioned earlier, the town does have a local elevation standard um which is a little higher. Um we call that our regulatory flood protection elevation. Because this is on the west side, um the flood protection elevation here is going to be 9 ft. And as you can see um on the site plan you've got your existing storage at uh 10.3, your principal retail at 11.2. Um so this will um combine those two. So it will obviously be above the nine. Um but an elevation during construction will be required to show that. Um, again, um, similar to the last site plan amendment that we had, this really comes down to what's a minor modification versus a major modification. This, um, scope of work was major. So, it had to come back before the board. It wasn't something we could just approve administratively. Um, I included in your staff report some definitions to kind of walk um walk through this request, but appendix A of the UDO um defi defines general retail as an establishment providing goods directly to the consumer for immediate purchase and removal. The existing principal retail, which is TWW's bait and tackle, consists of 9,72 square feet. The existing accessory storage area totals 4,250 square feet and the proposed um 4,774 ft² addition would bring um the total

storage area up to 9,024 square ft. So you've got your principal at 9,72 and your accessory at 9,024. Um because of that I wanted to highlight that accessory uses accessory structures are supposed to be incidental and customarily found in conjunction with the principal use. That it's subordinate to and serves the principal use that it's subordinate in area extent and purpose and it contributes to the needs and convenience of the principal use. Um so with the 972 principal and um 9,024 accessory. Um it is subordinate in area obviously. Um it's tight but it is um and based upon the application this is intended to serve the principle. So it would meet the definition for accessory. Um for lot coverage on this the uh C2 district allows um a maximum lot coverage of 55% of the total area. Um, I outlined this in your staff report, but there's a vacant lot to the west of this lot. There's currently a lot line in between there. And um, as proposed, the proposed improvements on this site would be slightly over that 55%. So, what the applicant has um, is aware of and agreed to is that as part of this and approval prior to any building inspections being issued. Um they would need to recombine those two lots so that the existing TWW's lot would have to be combined with the vacant lots um to the

west to give them more lot area to ultimately result in um meeting the 55% lot coverage. It would be well it would be well under the 55 um once they combine, but as is um it's just over. So um combination of these lots would have to occur prior to any building permit being issued. Um the height, the maximum allowable building height is 35 feet. Um we know you can go to 42 if you have an 812 roof pitch and um the proposed new structure is going to be at about 30 feet measured from grade. So height is compliant. It meets that 35. Um try to scroll down here and some architectural renderings for us to review. We talk about this. Okay. So, what you see here on the screen on the top is your north elevation. Um you've got your existing building here. Um and then you've got the um storage over here. And then we've got this um new connection right here. That's going to be um storage. And then we have your east, west, and south elevations on here. Um this is kind of a lot to go through in your report. Um, so I hope everyone was able to track with it, but essentially when um when this structure was approved back in November of 2005,

our commercial design standards at the time required 100 architectural design points. And so they met that um at the time. Over the years, our architectural design standards have increased. They've changed that point system has gone from requiring 100 points up to 150 points. And then we also have another division two um which gives you sort of an alternative path for your architectural design if you want to do that. Um but because the architectural design standards have increased, it essentially put this structure in a non-conforming status with regard to architecture which is totally fine. Many of the structures out there are with any text amendment with any change you create nonconformities. So with this um when we were reviewing it and um and speaking to the architect and the applicant and the engineer uh we just wanted to make sure that um as part of the addition the degree of nonconformity wasn't increased in any way. That's actually what the ordinance states um with regard to non-conforming structures is you can do expansions, you can do additions, you just can't increase the degree of nonconformity. So this was originally um permitted at 100 points and what they've done with the addition is included um some architectural elements that keep it yes keep it at that 100 points. So um as proposed it is compliant. They have not increased the degree of nonconformity with regard to architectural compliance. Um, as you can see, they've extended that porch roof across much of the storage area. Um, they have columns there with column trim as well. So,

um, they have their number calculation there with the perimeter of the building versus the perimeter adjacent to a porch. You can see the math. Um, but it does come out to be just over a hundred points. Um, so with that in mind, we do find them compliant in that regard. um with parking. Um the UDO doesn't have a parking requirement specifically for storage. So as long as this is storage, um there's no parking requirement associated with it. Um, and I will note that on your site plan, um, they do have in there that these parking spaces, the existing parking spaces might be restriped from 10 ft wide to 9 ft wide as we heard at our last meeting, um, which is now a requirement and I think they'll gain a couple of spaces by doing that. Um, there is no additional buffering or landscaping that's being required as part of this um, addition. Uh, but we did Note, anytime you're doing this, if you disturb or um uh damage any of your existing vegetation or if there were required buffers that have since not been maintained or or or died, now's the appropriate time to put those back. So, we'll make sure um that that occurs as well. There's no change in lighting or signage being proposed as part of this addition. Um you do have approval from the Dare County Health Department in your packet. Um the town engineer did review the circulation and um that has been approved. There's potentially likely a second phase to this. I won't speak to that. I'll let the um the architect, the engineer, and the applicant if they want to. Um but when that second phase comes around, um it's likely that a different loading zone will have to be addressed at that time. Um but what they've shown now is

compliance um for storm water management. Um the engineer did provide supplemental storm water calculations for the new builtupon area. Um and that was deemed to be in compliance. Um and just wanted to note that proper erosion and sedimentation control measures will need to be installed while they're doing this because of the proximity to their storm water basin. Um as always uh fire prevention code must be met. Uh, Deputy Fire Chief Shane Height during a TRC had recognized that um this addition might spur the need for an additional an additional hydrant in the area. So, I wanted to make note of that on um on your staff report as well. And our public services director reviewed and approved the site plan as it's been um proposed. So with that um analysis staff does recommend approval of the site plan amendment as it's been shown. Um and there's several people here. We have John Deluchia from Albam Marl and Associates. He's the engineer. Mark Casten from Goodman and Casten as the architect and Mr. Greening the property owner. Should you have any questions of them and I'm happy to answer any questions that you may have.

Great. Thank you. Does anybody have questions for staff? Kelly, just to make sure I'm looking at this right, with the additional storage building going in the back of the retail space now, it runs looks like it runs right up to the existing storage space. It does. It will connect. So, we'll have one big storefront or store side there. Basically, it will be and it does meet. So, we do have a 3:1 requirement. your length to width of your building can't exceed 3 to one and this is compliant with that. Um but yes, it will be uh one structure with both um principal retail and storage. Okay. Thanks.

And it's a total of 18,000 square feet just under the the 20. Is there any um movement to have workforce housing incorporated in any of this. We did we did try to do that but it's not reasonable. Just just curious. Thanks. I just was let's finish with Kelly and then if the applicant engineer everybody wants to come up that'll be great. Anybody else have questions for Kelly? Great. Thank you.

Thank you. John, are you coming up to speak to us? I hope. a second. Um, one thing Kelly didn't mention was we are sprinkle protection building because of the size and fire hydr where he wants the fire hydrated and I'm just you have any questions I can answer. I'll be happy.

Um, I'm curious as to the long range plan when We're working on that that part portion right now. I had to get some more survey information. We're we're tweaking some things. Um likely likely when we come back with with the rest of the development, a few things on this plan will change. Okay.

So, but this is all storage right now, right? any online sales? Yes, I mean for everybody. Would you mind stepping up, Mr. Green just again because people are watching? I know I've shared this before, but you know, one of the problems out here is of course um finding good employees and I'm very fortunate with the employees that we have. Um but finding new employees is not easy. Uh when this project started, there was an intention of having some workforce housing.

Um you know, unfortunately, I don't think the town is is there to really incentivize that just yet, and that created some complications in the back. But ultimately, what we have to plan for as business owners is of course the employee situation that's out here, and I think everybody's familiar with that. But then also for us as a retail business is, you know, we've gone through COVID. We've now recently gone through Trump's tariffs and we have to build up inventory in the off season. At that time, we don't have any shortage of parking. We don't have a shortage of employees. We have to build up our inventories in advance. This past year, we've had several businesses in our industry that went under because they did not have the inventory to sell or the proper cash flow management to stay in business. That's not something we're going to fall to. So, we're going to build continue to build up our inventories and make sure that when the season hits, we are prepared. We have the staff to do that in the offseason and allows us to keep our staff employed versus laying them off like many businesses. And then it balances, of course, our parking lot and requirements to keep our customers in the store throughout the busy time. So, having additional storage in the back is a absolute need and something we have to solve for.

I have a question for you. the the the properties that are going to be combined so that you have the correct lot coverage percentage. Is that additional property currently owned by you or your corporation or is that to be No, it is. So, it's just a matter of of administratively combining that. That's correct. Okay. Yeah. This says contingent on it. But I know it's contingent. I didn't know who owned it. Right. Okay. Thank you. Anybody else have questions for the applicant?

So, since we don't know much about the long-term plan, is the is the restriping necessary? I'm I know that I know the new regulation obviously, but obvious there's also a lot of people in big vehicles in your business all the time. I'm sure it's SUVs and people with fishing equipment and all that stuff. So is the is the restriping necessary or could you could you leave the parking spaces like they are? It seems like there's sometimes parking problems already in the season within the which is not unique

within this existing plan. Um not counting some things outside that are going on that could eliminate the need to do that. Um we wanted to present a plan that 100% met the code today. Right. Restriping is what we're going to go ahead and say we're going to do because at the bare minimum it it meets the it meets the state requirements. Um, and we're going to continue to work around that. Would it be required for them to restripe? I'm just curious now. Um, yeah, it it would. So, in the previous [Music] um, and so by resting, they gain those.

Okay. Anybody else have questions for the applicant or his representatives? Okay, thank you very much.

Anybody have comments, concerns? Um, I the the this area at at Catfield Landing I I reside nearby and um it's a it's a weird intersection. There's no shortage of accidents. I think it's slightly higher number than normal and um you know so I'm this on that there are no stats you know I try I try to look I rhetorically speaking I listen to the radio all the time. I I work for emergency services.

We we need to um definitely work we're we're discussing appreciate your comments. you know, I'm just talking long term here. So, um, now I'm just thinking as this moves forward, you know, this is what what what what is on paper here is existent and and more or less an incremental change. Um, I'm more looking toward the next um evolution of this um with the exterior um inventory that is on display. Um it's not signage, but um it's inventory. Um it I'm not sure exactly what the policy code is on that kind of stuff, but it it it does lend to um the area just being odd. Uh because it's a if you look at where Satford Landing intersects the bypasses the T junction um where there's no outlet on the other side and um you it just south of it there is four inter there's there's three inputs within you know 100 yards. So just the turn lane bump it's it's pretty regular. Um, so I'm just a little bit concerned about NC DOT involvement and safety.

I hear you, Dave, but as along with and with the exterior, I guess I should have made it more clear um pedestrian traffic um crossing this area. I'm I'm looking at that and and that's those are all good points, but we're looking at this particular application that that meets everything staff has required. If if and when we get a another plan down the road, we I think that would be a valid consideration then. Agree. Okay, that's fine. Bring it up now.

Anybody else? Um, I would say that I appreciate the lengths that the applicant has gone to to make the building conform. And uh, I know at one time it was an application to build a separate building and we were trying to get a variance for space in between, but I think that this will serve the applicant better and it will look it'll be more aesthetically pleasing. Um and you know it is it's a obviously a very vibrant successful business and um yeah I I think it looks it looks good and I agree with Basil that the application is for this and that's what we need to consider.

Thank you. I move that we approve. Okay second. I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? All in favor? Do we? The contingency or we just approve it as Well, we're approving the contingencies included in the in the presentation, right? So, as as submitted as Yes. Absolutely. Okay. Back. So, we have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? All in favor?

I. Anybody opposed? Great. Thank you. Moving on to um consideration of site plan amendment submitted by Alarm Associates on behalf of Galassa Holdings and Outerbank Sports Club for the expansion of the fitness gym to include a twostory addition outdoor gym area and tennis court. Me again. Good.

Kelly's getting a workout this morning. chose her next a little bit. Okay. So, this gets I think most everything on the site. Um, like you mentioned, this is a site plan amendment request for Outer Bank Sports Club. Um, looking on the screen, you've got 158 out here in front. Um, they've done some revisions to their parking layout. Um, you've got a proposed new building addition here. Um, you've got a proposed outdoor fitness area here. Um, and you've got a tennis court here on the south side of the property with a um a little gazebo here as well. And just panning back, not a lot of changes back here to the parking lot. Um, so those that's that's the highlights of what we'll be talking about today. Um, as noted, Alam Marlin Associates is the applicant. Um, and they're looking for construction of a new twostory 4,538 square foot attached addition on the

south side of the existing building. An additional 795 square feet of floor area to be added within the existing building which you can see on the floor plan um to develop an outdoor fitness training area and a tennis court. The twotory edition will include a youth gym on the first floor and a cardio and training area on the second floor. Um the property um structure located at 2423 South Croatan Highway and the zoning of this property is C2 General Commercial and for the most part it is surrounded by C2 as well. Um flood hazard as we said this area is going to be um in a flood hazard uh well it's a X flood zone um but we have that local elevation of nine and uh you can on their site plan. They've got a proposed first floor elevation of 12. So, that's obviously being met. Um, and that's the only structure on the site that would have to meet the flood regulations. Um, again, same as previous uh major site plan amendments, so y'all have to to see it and hear it. It's not something that we could do administratively. Um, in the C2, your lot coverage can go up to 55%. um their existing conditions survey actually had them at 56.6. They were a little over. Not sure how that happened, but it did. Um so as part of this, they're actually reducing their lot coverage. So through a combination of um reworking the parking lot, eliminating some unnecessary pvious areas, and using turfstone, they um have actually reduced

their lot coverage down to 53.8. Um height. Uh the allowable height is 35 ft. Um and as we said, you can go to 42 with the properly pitched roof. This twotory edition has an approximate height of 31 12 ft. Um so that's going to be compliant and we'll look at some architectural renderings. Um while we're here, I'll show you the floor plan. Um, here is your first floor. And this would be the first floor of the um proposed new area with the um outdoor gym located there. Um, and here is the new area located within the building. So you've got a mezzanine here with some cardio and they would expand that along the south side as well as you can see the addition here. and architecturally. All right. So, we'll leave it here for right now, I guess. Um, this would be what you would see from 158. So, this is going to be the existing structure and This would be the proposed new structure. Um,

it's nice

section um 10.82 of the UDO. Kind of laughing because the architect Mark Castman and I talked about this a lot. It's difficult when you've got these old structures that either didn't comply at all or complied under a new standard and now we're doing something where we're having to bring them um up to par. So, they really went out of their I appreciate them so much for the work they did architecturally on this um because their new UDO states that um for an addition you've either got to comply with the 150 as listed or do that division 2 architectural route and um they jumped in and they've complied with that division two. Um they've got a um a pitched roof here that's greater than 4 and 12. Um they've got a little dormer. They have lap siding shown. They have um residential style windows shown. Um they've they've made a great effort and so they've met all the criteria of that division two um commercial design standard for this building. So um they're compliant in that regard. Um, with regard to parking, uh, they have to have 300 square, they have to have one space per 300 square feet of indoor fitness or gymnasium use. The indoor fitness, um, comes in at 19,425 square feet. um that's going to require them to have 65 parking spaces just to be cautious in case someone should ever say that the outdoor gym area is also area. I included it and they meet that as well. Um

that brings them to needing 73 parking spaces and they have 81. Um so they are still compliant with parking. Come back up here to the site plan um for landscaping and buffering. There's no aspect of this that requires them to do to add more landscaping or buffering, but if anything is damaged um during construction or if there's areas that need to be supplemented, that's something that we'll address at that time. Um, no new lighting is being proposed at this point, but they have noted that there will be some lighting over here around the tennis court. And um, they'll have to pull a permit for that, which at that time we'll look at the fixture, we'll look at the photometrics, we'll have to issue a permit um, to show that they meet all the requirements at that time. Um, signage, there's no additional signage being requested at this moment. Um and in your packet you have approval from Dair County Environmental Health. The town engineer has reviewed traffic circulation and storm water management. Um with the new um even with all these new areas obviously lot coverage being reduced. The on-site storm water facilities were um adequate for what's being proposed. Um, the project does have to comply with the North Carolina Fire Prevention Code. Um, I apologize I didn't mention it previously with TWWs, but the same with this. Um, they do intend, um, to bring in a sprinkler system as well as part of this addition. Um, and that will also necessitate a fire hydrant as well, which um, Mr. Delia with Alamoral has been working on with our deputy fire chief as well. Um, public services has

reviewed and approved the site plan as presented and based upon that analysis staff would recommend approval as has been presented. Um, same people, Albam Marl, uh, John Deluchia with Albam Marl, Mark Casten, um, with Kahun and Casten. We have some representatives from the gym, Manny Galasa, and I apologize. I do not remember your name. Nick, so happy to answer any questions. Thank you. Does anybody have questions for Kelly? Okay, great. Thank you. How about the applicant? Do we couple of questions for the applicant?

Okay, John, you better you might as well just stay close by to the podium, right? Um, did I read somewhere in our packet that in the addition second floor might be some housing? Okay, I read something. Yeah. Okay. Not a problem. And do we have any idea what we envision as the hours for the tennis court?

It's going to be actually Pickle balls. Yeah. So, will it can it be both or it'll just be pickle ball? Okay. Gotcha. Well, you'll be popular. Oh, sorry. Manny Velasa Sports Club. How are you guys? Uh, it's going to be four pickle ball courts. And regarding the hours, it's going to be the same hours as the gym, which is pretty much 5:30 a.m. until 10 p.m. Okay. What time? And then on the weekends, I close at 7 and 5, right? Okay. So, not not late night. I don't want the lights will go on. I don't want them there when I'm not there. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Perfect. So, you're concerned about the neighbors, I assume. Yeah. Yeah.

Um Okay. Anybody else questions? Question. Any thoughts about workforce housing? Incorporated into your space. I don't think we have the space for that. Okay. Yeah. We love adding housing whenever we can, but I don't think we have the space there. I will I will say that Mr. Gosy's dad a lot of properties and they keep their employees. Yeah. All up and down but we need to keep we need to keep talking with them with them. I know some of my employees here are are employed now. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We are used to be as well.

We are used to be as well that we are trying to work with people on encouraging workforce housing, you know. So that's great. This is just curiosity about the kids gym. Is that what's the age limits and stuff on that? That's a that's great. I'm targeting ages 5 to 12. Okay. I don't want any diapers. Yeah. And obviously there'll be it's a different situation. There'll be supervision in there and all that good stuff. I actually met So it's not daycare, it's a gym. It's not a daycare. It's a gym. I actually met a couple this summer at the sports club and I swear he was the only person that I spoke to the whole day and he tells me he's in the gym industry in Virginia Beach. Wow. Kids gym. Which one? It's called Kids Strong. Okay. Yeah.

So, I showed him my plans and I said, "Do you think what you do will work here?" And he said, "Absolutely." And that's where I came up with this. Nick and I drove there. We took a look at the facility and uh I said, "We have to do it." It pays to talk to your guests, right? I talk to everybody. So, yeah, it's it's a great idea. I think it's going to be a winner. I think so, too. That's a great idea. Yeah, it is. It's great. And I I like I like the building. I appreciate all the things you've done to make it, you know, look better. Really, not that, you know, and it's it's successful. There's people there all the time. I know a lot. So, that's great. I think it's a nice addition.

If kids don't work out, they grow up and look like me. Any other questions for these gentlemen? Would you incorporate something for us in the geriatric club come 5:30 in the morning got to be on the first floor. That's not going to happen.

I It's It's not necessarily a question for the applicant, but I one of the things in this area there's not a there's sidewalks. You have like the coffee shop just south of there. And with this, I'm I imagine everything is going to get a little bit more gregarious. Um I'm wondering if that is something that eventually the town is looking at incorporating, you know, pedestrian access. There's going to be cutthroughs. People are like cattle. They're going to find a path. There is a path actually as it is. A lot of my members go to front porch from there from from the trees over. There's actually Exactly. Yeah. And I'm sure you have a bike rack. I hope. Yes, we do. Good. Yeah, I saw it on Yeah.

Wonderful. Just curiosity again, how what proportion of people are visitors that use your facility like in the summer? Do you have any idea? In the summertime, it's mostly visitors. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Because the locals don't like being around around them. Wait a minute now. And the gym gets the gym gets too busy. Right. Right. Yeah. So the loc loc loc loc loc loc loc loc loc loc loc loc loc loc loc loc loc loc loc loc locals kind of stop coming and the locals are busy too busy working all time and stuff like that. So, it's mostly tourism sometimes. Most will still come obviously. Yeah. Definitely. Okay. Great. Questions? Anybody else questions? All right. Thank you very much. We'll talk about it.

It's nice to see three thriving businesses in I know, right? Yeah. And just think of just think all the gas that John saved not driving back and forth three different times for this. I know. Perfect. I this it's it's it's just exactly kind of what you know redevelopment is looking like and and the fact that it gets people outdoors is great. I'm very happy about this. Yeah. Yeah. The outdoor gym that's that's an interesting feature. I really like the focus with the kids. Yeah. The kids gym. I think that's a terrific idea. very family oriented and and my staff will be very happy with this as well.

Okay. Well, well, that's correct. That's key. Yeah. Well, you know, we are where we eat, right? Yep. Okay. I'll make a motion to approve this. Second. Great. We have a motion and a second to approve. Any further discussion? All in favor? Anybody opposed? Great. Thank you. Moving on. Sure. Look at us go. I know. And now Joe. Hi. The room empties out. Yeah. Alone again. Still on video though. I know. Don't worry. I'm aware. Not totally alone.

Okay. So, we have um Deputy Director Joe Costello. He's going to talk to us about initiation consideration of text amendments to the UDO flood damage prevention ordinance. I don't know. Hello. Good morning. Um, just got mine on screen, but it still seems blame it on Amazon. It works.

Okay. Good morning, planning board. Hi. How are you guys doing?

Good. Um, so today we have in response to our 2024 CRS audit and in coordination with our NFIP, National Flood Insurance Program coordinator, um, some text amendments to our flood damage prevention ordinance of the UDO as well as some associated definitions. A lot of this is housekeeping clarifying language um to basically match the current NFIP model ordinance. Um one of the main things is clarifying that we always have one foot of freeboard um throughout town and in the review of our ordinance there was um really just from the outside they don't know what the village is. So I think it was being read as the town of Nags Head and not the village, you know, the village of Nags Head for people on the outside. It wasn't clear in our definitions. You know, we have this sort of 9 to 12 12T elevation on the east side of the beach road and 9 ft west. But obviously where where the village is, you know, the road was moved and there's homes that are east of the beach road that are not on the ocean front and not in the beach road. Um so a lot of the definition stuff is is around clarifying that and clarifying that there's always one foot of freeboard which um is a requirement of of the CRS program for us to continue to maximize our points. Oh, thank you.

Um, and so couple other things that occurred. We looked at um just in the um our definition of development change to um just add one little section that says any man a change to improved or unimproved real estate, including not limited to buildings or structures, mining, dredging, filling, grading, paving, excavation, or drilling operations or storage of equipment or materials as part of our definition of development. Um, we looked at our AO zones which are all east of the beach road and just clarified that um the 12 foot um 12t elevation standard or one foot greater than that if if the grade is that high um will always allow for one foot of preboard. And um as I already mentioned, we looked at really clarifying between our flood prevention ordinance and our definitions sort of what the village is. We defined what the village is. We referenced it to um our article nine, which is where we sort of have all of the stuff related to the village um ordinance and a definition of what the village is. So that basically our flood prevention ordinance and our definitions are matching and are tight.

That's good. Really, that's about all I have. you know, I guess with the manufactured home park and manufactured home subdivision, we clarified that basically that that was allowed and then was completed before the effective date of the flood plane management regulations adopted by NASCAT. A lot of the verbiage is is just clarification to match this NFIP model ordinance and um just continue to maximize CRS points. So I'm happy to answer any questions. Just one little minor thing. It's I think it's village at Nags Head instead of village of Nags Head in our in our documents

in your documents of but I think in reality it's village at Nags Head. No, I think it's it's I'll double check. I really believe it's um village head. I think it's village. Oh, you do? It is. But it says village of in our documents. You're right. Yeah. Okay. Village of that. Sorry, I didn't mean to cause a stir there. My other That's fine. I appreciate it because I missed that. I missed that. So

my other question, since I'm still pretty new to this board, can you get give us the the quick story about the 2024 community rating system audit, what that's all about?

Sure. Um, the community rating system is a voluntary program for communities to try to as a community have regulations and and and other sort of strategies to reduce loss of life and and property and and by adopting stricter regulations, by enforcing building codes, by doing certain forms of community outreach and mapping and um by um complying with the NFI IP's um flood insurance study and um adhering to the flood zones. That's sort of the minimum. But then when you do all these extra things, you get on a point system, you get extra points and and achieve different classes. And the higher class you are, it goes from one to nine if you're or excuse me, the lower class. So, if we're a class five, um that gives us a 25% um discount on flood insurance premiums in the special flood hazard area and 10% if you're not.

And so, the more things you do um the better your score and that um translates to lower risk for the NFIP and so they give that back to you by discounting flood insurance. Thank you, Joe. That helps. Anybody else questions for Joe? Okay, so it seems like housekeeping basically pretty much eating things up. Anybody want to make a motion? Sure. I'll make a motion we approve this as written.

Okay. Okay. So, we have a motion and a second to approve with that app. Oh, we're initiating. We're just initiating actually, right? Um, it was initiation and consideration. Okay, great. So, we're initiating and considering and we have a motion and a second on the floor. Any further discussion? All in favor? I. Anybody opposed? Great. Moving on. And uh thank you, Joe. Thank you, Miss Wyatt. I think you're back right for a report on the board of commissioners actions from their October 1st meeting.

Everybody's

all right. So, not a whole lot. Um but at their October 1st meeting on their consent agenda, um we did have the request for public hearing to talk about the town's crowd gathering permanent process. So hopefully um we'll have that um back before them at their November December meeting at the latest. Um we had a public hearing for parking spaces which um was approved unanimously. Um I gave a presentation on the division of water infrastructure zero interest septic loan program. I know we've talked about that a little bit in here but um probably if you have any questions I'm happy to answer it but essentially we were um given a step back. The town already has the septic health initiative where we offer um septic tank inspections for free um you get your tank pumped, you get a $250 rebate if you give us the invoice from your your tank being pumped. Um, and then if you need repairs, we offer a low interest loan. Um, the Division of Water Infrastructure um gave us a pot of money to offer zero interest loans

for properties that we um determined to be high risk. And for that, we're looking at properties that are adjacent to water bodies that haven't had septic maintenance in the recent um within the past five years who've never participated in their program and whose elevation is below 3 ft. So, we're thinking those properties, probably older properties, vulnerable properties. We're going to target this DWI loan to them to try to help them get any septic repairs that they may need. Um, but because it's a new program, we essentially had to draft our own scope and tell them how we were the methodology we were using to determine vulnerable and high risk and to tell them how we were going to ensure that our subject contractors were compliant with the Davis Bacon Act and the American Iron and Steel. So, we've given them all those documents explaining to them how we're going to do that. We're waiting to hear back from them that they agree that the that their proposal's um going to work. So, we should hear back from them by early December, I think, and hopefully get this program up and going the first of the year.

It's exciting. Kelly, that meeting that you had with the contractors that they had to comply with all these these regulations for the unions, were they immunable to doing that? Yeah, so we had probably seven or eight show up and um the packet that we gave them on the front was like a check box of things you had to do. We did not intend for them to agree that night to do it, but seven of them went ahead filled it out. Yeah. Put their septic information on it. They were excited about it. They felt like this was being zero interest was great, but that it was maybe catering to more locals

um and people that are here year round that could use the assistance. They were they were happy to jump on it and um it's new for them and it's new for us. We told them we would work with them and figure it out along the way. Yeah. Kelly, I have two questions. What is on average the cost of pumping out a septic system? So anywhere I'm learning it's anywhere from 480 on the low end to 600 on the high end. So, we were trying to split it assuming that it's probably about 500. Our rebate being 250 would have it.

That would be that's great. And and what methodology is the town using to explain and um incentivize people to take advantage of the service. We are trying all sorts of things and we are open to suggestions because our decentralized wastewater management plan as Basil knows has some um goals with the numbers that we want to be meeting over 25 26 27 28 and it is I'll be honest we're not we're not hitting those numbers. We're just not getting the amount of participation that we would like to have. Um, we're doing a lot of social media on our town website. Um, Connor, our environmental planner who administers the program. He's done some videos um with the local government channel. He's done some just silly videos that we put on our YouTube to try to engage people. Um, he sets out at the Dowy Park Farmers Market trying to get residents of NASA to come chat with him. Um, but yeah, we're always Any ideas? Um, we're talking about doing some door hangers.

Um, especially for the the high-risk lots. Yes. With with the free inspection. Yeah. Free inspection is open to anyone. Yeah. I think that's like your selling point like Yeah. Yeah. And then the the person that wants to inspect for free can give you all the information once they're there. a door hanger, free inspection of your septic tank, and why it's important, right? I think that sounds like a great idea.

And we're we're trying to reiterate and and Basil's familiar with this because we talk about it at the septic health advisory committee a lot is we think some of the hesitation may be that maybe people put some turf stone down and they didn't get a permit or, you know, maybe they did something and they're so they're hesitant to invite um the town onto their property for fear. But We're really trying to get out there. Connor's like, he's one of us, but he's not one of us. Like, if he comes onto your property, he's looking at your septic tank. And he says that in a video that I watch, he comes right out and says, "I'm not looking at your steps or he's got blinders on for everything."

What What do you What What What goes into defining something as high-risisk?

Um, so the the DWI loan is high is going to be um pushed towards high-risisk properties. So Joe did an analysis of that. Um it's going to be any property that is adjacent to a water body including a ditch. So the memorial ditch, the South Max Head ditch. So that was one layer. We pulled those those properties and then any property that has had a permit for maintenance with Dair County Environmental Health within the last five years, those properties came out. Any property that has a advanced system, those properties came out. Anyone that used our lowterest loan program recently for a new septic system or repair, those properties came out. And then the biggie was to then do an analysis and pull out the properties out of those that we had that were at an elevation of three feet or lower because those are the ones that are probably having some groundwater interaction. is has there been any thought to adding, you know, environmental um you know, the the the warnings that the state comes out with, you know, and I'm thinking in in, you know, areas that are kind of an ongoing um hazard to ecoli where, you know, swimming hazard in the in the southside is that would that be a plus factor as well? Um and I I there's no reason to think that that that any of the hazards that I've been made may that I'm aware of that has gone on in the past aren't concurrent repeating concerns maybe just to understand what the loading forces are if it is if if the EC coli um flash warning for people getting into the sound along soundside is due to this or

something else. So that's always part of the conversation that wasn't um that wasn't cycled into our high risk, but we hope that ultimately that's at the the crux of it is that if you if your septic system is failing, if your septic is having groundwater interactions and there are pollutants um because of your situation, those are the ones that we want to address first and to give priority. and and and along with that um you know kind of soundside whenever there is a a storm water outflow that is flagged if I know historically speaking that there have been violations not in I'm talking within on the Outer Banks um that there have been violations where a property owner has made modifications to the the the health situation on their property and it has caused a an uptick as as one thing. Um just wondering and then the next thing is do you know of other where are the sites where they're taking um observational data for those swimming advisories?

Um I don't I can have our environmental planner Connor

come in here. I mean he's we overlap. We have probably upwards of 30 sites where 26 30 sites where we're doing either our water quality loggers that are that that's taking data 247 or his hand sampling. I know the state does their hand sampling in those same areas, but I can't tell you off the top of my head exactly where they are. He could. I will note our program is more for internal information and to help guide us on what we need to be doing, whereas theirs is more immediate. When they recognize a problem, they post the advisory. We're not using our data for that purpose. Um, but it it is there to help advise us as to what we need to be doing better. The interest I have here is very often my my recollection and what I understand is very often there's water hazards um water hazard advisories are linked to a rain event or kind of a Goldilocks effect where if there's too little rain or too much rain, nothing really happens. But if you have that just right, you get a flush and and the what has been contained within the ditches or existent gets flushed out into the aqua from the aquifer into the the open water. Um and as we our carry capacity increases, those numbers are seem like they're likely to increase. there have been some I'm just interested in the linkage between the two if and if there if there could be over time statistical inferences made not necessar it's going to be very difficult to establish causation but correlation possible

I I just wanted to make an observation when somebody reads that there's a water hazard or say in the sound or whatever a lot of times you're going to see it behind Jockeyy's Ridge and then just recently down uh off of Elizabeth and Garden down in that area. But when you read that, parents and people then tend not to go swimming in those areas. Mhm.

And so if I can bring that down to where we're interested in getting people to take action on a much more localized level like in their own yard and their own septic system. The carrot is a free inspection. The carrot is a $250 credit on a pumpout. If the carrots don't generate enough interest because I'm afraid somebody will see something on my property that I don't want them to see and so they may not take advantage of the carrots. What are the sticks? Let me just continue. The sticks would be what if something in my backyard would make me or my children or my animals sick? I don't want to get too graphic, but the thing is what what if if there's a reason, a health reason, what if I'm scared enough for my health of my family? Now, I'm going to tell my spouse, let's let's forget that they're going to see something illegal. We've got a health issue that's affecting us. So it so now when something affects you personally, you're going to be more prone to take an action than if it was just something what out there in the sound and the I won't let the kids swim today. Wait for a couple of weeks, it'll go away and then we'll swim. So I I think that there needs to be some incentive that might alarm somebody to take action when they're hiding a failing system for some other reason. Can I can I add can I possibly add something to that? Of course.

If if you have a situation where and hypothetically there is a septic tank that is repeatedly pumped that is an indicator of something perhaps that it's it's a non-compliance or a non-functioning system. That's why more than once I've asked, is there any way to ask the vendors that are doing this work to log their work? And that's cumbersome. What the situation we're in right now is somebody's going to have to stick their hand out, dial a phone number, and make a complaint. And the reality is the issues that we're going to likely be having are going to be happening all at the same time during the summer when we have more visitors. So it almost seems like maybe because of the information situation we're in right now, maybe something like this is possible where we have another methodology of alarm bells being rung where you could have the vendors doing something like that.

Two, I'm sure there's a good that's a good point. I I I'm guessing there's laws against people reporting on b on performing services at someone's home. I I don't know. I don't know how much cooperation you'd get from the vendors or or anybody else. You know, I mean, people have a right to to privacy, you know. I'm not I'm just guessing. But I don't think you can require septic companies to contractors to report when they work at someone's home.

Right. I don't think we can require that our contractors give us a daily, weekly, monthly debrief of the work that they've done. But um you know if someone's having multiple pumps or something like that, it is probably on someone's radar somewhere whether it's the towns, whether it's the neighbor having called the town or whether it's one of the environmental specialists with their county health. So, um, yeah. Does Dair County Health have any, um, I mean, they permit the things? And if they're failing, do they have any recourse to to make them operational? I know the town does not, but, the county must.

They do. They essentially can issue a violation and get they give them a certain amount of time to have it. Yeah. Yeah. There was a situation, honestly, down in South Max had um, where they had to go through the process of issuing the violation. Um, it was a rental home. they did issue the violation. The guy reached out, took advantage of our program, and he's in better shape now. So, how how did the how did the county become aware there was a problem there? Um, I don't I don't know exactly, but I imagine it was probably from reports, complaints

that led them out there to begin with. An inordinate amount of pumps may also be an indicator of something else. There may not be anything wrong with the septic system and the septic system may be compliant with the house. The number of people living in the house, however, may not be comp. You're saying that's that's where that's that's pos that's one of the other possibilities. And I know not in the town of Nagad, but I do know of a house, four bedrooms that has 17 people living in that's going to fill up a septic tank pretty darn quick.

And and I do know as well, you know, the other issue in this matrix is if water is going out, water's going in. And that's something where if there's anomalous water use is that something that you know if there's a water leak on a property I imagine the water department is made aware by you know through meter readings this is this is an outrageous use maybe there's a leak on site that's something that are I've seen that where they fill up

all the time so but at the same time is if there is no if there is no leak on site and that you still have that anomalous use. It's an indicator of an overuse of the septic field perhaps or a non-compliant use of the property. And it everything the linkage here is you're you're exactly right. I'm I'm not after, you know, the 1984 Big Brother State, but at the same time, there are people that are creating marginal situations where they're exceeding gray and they're going they're they're stepping on the line and that's what we look at for six months of the year.

Over occupancy has always been an issue, right? It will always be an issue, but you know, there's a handful of of hurdles that we can put in there, but it's never going to be enough.

Well, and I'm I'm I'm not even talking about over occupancy. I'm talking about non-compliant use where, you know, you have a a that's not a bedroom, that's not a sleeping area, that's not a living space, that's not a conditioned space. And that goes on. Um, and you know, it's difficult for the planning department to do that. But all these things that we're talking about are indicators of that. Um, collecting it all is weird. Um, and is perhaps not legal. Um, however, is that something you do if you get a complaint? Do you look into those other things to create more cause for concern?

Sure. I mean, anytime we get a complaint, we look at the authorized septic health permit, the number of bedrooms that it states the the septic can address versus what's actually there. Do you look at water use as well? Advertise. Do you ever look at water use as well? We do not look at water use. That can I make that suggestion? Water use can vary a lot anyway. No, no, certainly can, but a few bricks in a wall, you start to, you know, that's Yeah, that's all I'm saying. Anyway, thank you for yes, that part of your report on the BOC. Hey, just one more clarification there, please. Um, Dare County probably gets notification when there's a drain field installed or repaired, right? Yes.

How about when when a pumpout occurs, do they get notification of that, too? They do not. Okay. So, there's a little bit of Right. They they are aware of what's going on when there's repairs at least, right?

They they are. And so we were trying to work in sort of a a back way to go into their permit system so that we get notification when there's work being done in Mag's head. It's really difficult to do but I don't know monthly we go in and review their records and do a filter and we figure out what's being done in access. And and just for everybody's information, as part of the septic health advisory committee, we've got a retired Dair County employee who used to run, I believe, all everything to do with Yeah. So, he's very knowledgeable. We got two former mayors on the board and we got Connor who really knows this stuff and

and a few others, too. So, they're they're looking at a whole bunch of different suggestions and ideas. Oh, I'm learning a lot out there. That's awesome. Rob. Oh, yeah. And he's he's very involved. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Have we covered that one? Yes. Kelly, keep going, please.

All right. Um, so with our farmers market, we put a survey out there uh about a month ago just to get some feedback from our vendors for summer markets. And um we got that feedback. We compiled a presentation. We gave that presentation to the board of commissioners. But then we also wanted to give it to the vendors to let them know it was anonymous. I will say that. So we wanted to make sure that the vendors had an opportunity to get um uh that survey information back in their hands. So we hosted a after action session here in the boardroom, brought the vendors in who wanted to be here. Um went over the survey results. Uh got a lot of really good feedback. Um everyone seems um incredibly satisfied, very satisfied and satisfied were uh you know the 95% and there were a couple of outliers. Um so just trying to keep things moving there, figure out what we can do better. Um with in terms of markets, but that was really good. We're going to be hosting um well the holiday markets are starting up soon but then prior to next season's farmers market. We'll have another meeting with our vendors just to make sure they all understand the rules and expectations.

Kelly um somebody commented to me recently about the farmers market like selection process and they were wondering if Nags Head artists are given priority to be at the market. Yes. Okay. both both for the farmers market and for the holiday. Okay. There's a separate process for both. Okay. Um but in either scenario, um NAS head is given preference if you're if you're local to Max. Okay. That's good to know.

Absolutely. Um and then Joe Costello gave an update on the ETN shoreline management plan. um including where we're at with Village Drive, um Max Head Woods Preserve, Southside Road, and Harvey site. And um we just gave an update on the conversations we had here on the commercial outdoor recreation overlay district. That's it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

So, town updates, we move on to discussion items. Oh, planning and development director's report. Anything new? I don't think there's any anything different. We've gone over a lot. Okay. Uh the DWMP shoreline management. I think we've touched on everything. If there's something in here you would like more details on, just let me know. Okay. How about members agenda?

I I have a this is a question for Kelly. I was looking into signage um looking at you know generally but more specifically in what the next evolution of TWWs is going to be. Um there's things that are kind of posted in the yard and if they have a piece of something on the thing that's there's kayaks or boats or this or that. Um it might not be viewed as signage by some but it that's the intent. Uh, and it starts to splash a lot more when it's kind of all together at this, you know, there we're looking at. It seems like this is evolving into a more of a of a of a frontage on two roads. So, I'm wondering if that's something we could look at, you know, the history of what is being done at businesses like this. You know, I'm even going into across from Jockeyy's Ridge, you know, where there's a lot of property that is for sale that could be, you know, it's not signage, but it's kind of advertisement. Um, it isn't I to I I see it as marginal and starting to border on um some level of, you know, soliciting for that item. And it seems like that's the intent of the signage policy. I would equate that to outdoor furniture in front of Ace Hardware all the way to cars in front of OVX Chevy.

I don't disagree with you. However, it is different when there's a sign associated with it. If there's something attached to that that piece, if there's if there's a car in a parking lot, that's nothing. If it has a sign on it that says for sale, that's something, right? So, you know, that progression and understanding that there is a progression and to make vendors who are operating in town realize that that's the line that they're crossing. Um, a flag here's here's a question for you. If flags are okay with their ordinance, correct? Some sort of It depends on what type of flag. Exactly. So if the flag is associated with So if the slag if a flag is associated with a display

of something and it's for sale, it starts to look like and smell like a duck. Maybe a duck even walks like a duck. So is it a duck at some point? Could we look at you know property you know these this this process and and how it is moving into that? Um it isn't in the right way. It is on private property. um vegetation is manicured to keep observation of that highlighted etc. So yeah sure I do and this cycles we we had the local business committee probably eight nine years ago do this exact same

deep dive thorough exercise. Um and there were some some outputs from that like you know better explaining signage that is allowed and what's not allowed. Um but it there is a fine line between what is storage, what is display, what is um what's appropriate or not appropriate, what's for sale, and what is an attention getting device. So um it's happy to look at it. This is one of those things where um you know it we might find things that just we can't address everything.

Yeah, I I get that. But you know, even like the lighting at night, you know, it it doesn't do anything during the day, but at night, you know, there's a lot of stuff in a window. Is it is it once it once the lights are on at night and they're not in business, is that a sign? So yeah, that's all. So we've talked about and we could probably go on and on with this, but you know, we we talked about having something in there that says when the business closes, the lights go out. We can't do that right now with SB38. These are all back burner things that we have that could be beneficial, but we can't do any of that at the moment.

So you got an ice machine on property. It's a box. As soon as you put ice on the side of it, which is going to be on the side of it, is it an advertisement? It's one It's a We don't allow automated standalone ice machines. If a retail location has an ice box on their property and it says ice, we have never treated that

as an issue. But the town is one of the few who actually prohibit the automated ice machines. I I I you you I I think you guys see where I'm going on this. There's there's it's an incremental creep where you know if you have an I if if my car if when I'm driving my emergency vehicle, my emergency vehicle advertises that I'm a lifeguard, that's the purpose of the marking of it. Um undercover lifeguards are not a thing. That's not something anybody's interested in. So the reason that a business puts the name of a product on the side of the product is advertisement. We are all driving advertisements today and it's just bumping it a little bit and sometimes it's a it can be a little much. Um, so that that's my question with with flags etc and banners because all that stuff is technically against policy. The question is how is it viewed by the the vendor whether it is an online situation.

Okay. Anybody else? Members agenda items want to talk about to a question that you asked earlier. If you wait till Saturday morning to have an emergency pump, it's $750, right? Yeah, emergency pumps are definitely more. And by the way, that uh that health u reaction to the problem may manifest itself indoors. No. And of course and of course emergency pumps in the summer sometimes anything less than a week or 10 days go you because they're they're so far out getting somebody in there you know getting somebody out. So

when I was talking to earlier one side of the door hanger is all of the pluses. The other side of the door hanger says this could happen and you won't want it to happen. Yeah. Yeah. just suggestion. I like that. Okay. Yeah. I wanted to give a compliment. I don't I don't have never worked for another town planning board, but um all of our packets are always so well organized and everything's just like all the information is there. It's so easy to read. I come in like practically already knowing what we're doing. It's just really nice. Thank you, Kelly. I agree with that.

And Joe, everybody invited and for keeping track of us because we're not an easy group to to track. It's just really and they're clean and like there was one mistake but there's never mistake from them and I don't know it's just really we do appreciate Thank you. Second that for sure. Okay, that's it. Anybody else? I have nothing on my agenda. So I will make a motion. Yeah, please do. Have a motion to adjourn a second. We don't need one actually. We don't need a second for that. Thank you. Good meeting. Yeah, just follow. We did pretty well.