City Council - Regular Meeting

evening. Who's going to lead us in the pledge of allegiance? So, if we'll all stand and face the flag, it will be led by members of Boy Scout Troop 22 from St. Andrews Presbyterian Church here in my joining the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you.

You'll remain standing for our invocation being delivered by Father David Hailman, a native of Muny and St. Lawrence Parish.

Let us pray. Creator and Father of all, we come before you to whom we turn for wisdom and guidance. May this body whom the well-being of our community has entrusted be guided by truth and compassion. [snorts] May the concern of all citizens be recognized and may the council look clearly at the impact its decisions will have on our city. May the good of all take precedence over individual interests. And may each proposal be presented with truthfulness and integrity. May the power held by this council never be used to harm or trample over the rights and needs of anyone or any group. We make this prayer to you who are the father and lord of us all. Amen.

Amen. Amen. Mr. President, if I may, if we could remain standing for um a moment of silence as we honor the memory of Mary Stilts, who very often attended city council meetings, um community events. May she rest in peace. Amen.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President. Our [cough and clears throat] [clears throat] citizens recognition will be given by council [clears throat] person Noah Pal.

I want to start by 22. That was really nice and I appreciate you guys. I think it's on. You tapping on it. Yeah, I think it's on. You just need to get closer. Tapping on it.

Okay. So, now that I'm magnified, I want to thank Troop 22 for doing the pledge of allegiance. I also want to of course thank father Helman for his invocation and whenever I have the opportunity to present this award. I always thank Councilman, former councilman Doug Marshall. This was his idea. He uh decided when he was elected first time that he wanted to start every meeting pointing out the good things that are happening in our community, the people that make up the tapestry of our community. And so I always am very appreciative of Doug for that uh that idea. It can be really difficult choosing a recipient for this award, which is a good thing because there are so many people in our community who are doing good things. But I knew who I wanted to recognize early in September when I walked down to the Brown Family Amphi amphitheater to watch KBT Helms and the Virginia Creepers as part of the 2025 Three Trails music series. While I had of course heard of the Ziggler Foundation, I wasn't really aware of Rick Ziggler and his wife Jean or their incredible contributions to our community. Rick Ziggler was born in Muny and graduated from Muny North Side. He left Munie as did a lot of us to go to college. He went to uh school in Providence, Rhode Island. After college, he wrote music and played drums in a band which toured up and down the East Coast. And one of the most interesting things is that his during their first tour. [laughter]

But he later moved to Salt Lake City, Utah, where he opened a record store in 1993. He said it was a way for him to stay involved in the music scene and exposed customers to diversity in music by playing a variety of artists in the store. In 2001, he returned to Indiana, moving the entire music store from Salt Lake to Broadripple and quickly independent record store in Indianapolis. He sold the store in 2013 when he moved back to my area to be closer to his parents. Rick's parents, Sherman and Marjorie Ziggler, had established the Ziggler Foundation in 1934 to help fund community beautifification efforts as well as to support community festivals and celebrations and cultural events. By 1989, Rick had joined the foundation board and in 2009, he became the president of the Foundation, a position he still holds today. Rick and his wife James, himself, a local artist, spearheaded the memory spiral, an 800 Nature walk highlights south monkey history. The memory spiral spiral is located in Deacon Park and covers monkey history from present day and ending with the Native American and colonial settlers who founded monkey in 2023. Together with his wife received the mayor's art in the category of art leader for their contributions to the community such as neighborhood beautifification efforts through the foundation. Mrs. designed the public sculpture installation of the white river and of course Rick's founding the free trails music. He served on the urban forestry board, the cargo greenway board, the community enhancement project board just to name a few. But it was his involvement in the free trails music that caught my eye. The series was founded in 2013 again as a way for Rick to continue to share his passion for music. The music series that just celebrated it 12th year and it

strived to bring critically acclaimed national recording artists to my perform concert. The name comes from my three trails, the Cardinal Greenway Trail, the White River Trail, and of course the Arts and Cultural Trail. The series originally started with four shows at Can [clears throat] Love. And in 2025, the series added an additional three shows at Brown Family A campus. President MS had approached Rick to ask him to consider expanding the series and he agreed, but not if it would take away from the downtown shows. And as someone who grew up just east of downtown, I appreciate his commitment and support the downtown area. The expanded series promotes the idea of better together by further linking the city of Mony. Rick stressed to me that these concerts are completely free for those who attend and no tax money to host. And as a finance chair, I can really appreciate that. He chooses affordable acts offering a diverse range across the genres so that each concert is different. Everything from jazz to bluegrass to Harlem gospel center. He said he has two goals with the series being ningally recognizing recognized artists to my exposing and performing new music today. the music series also the second goal the music series becomes so well known that it's able to shine a light on the three trails themselves and other area festivals and events it can be used to highlight all the great things about my one of the things he said often when we were talking and using that as a highlight and a way to expose people to all the good things that has to offer it is such an amazing opportunity in the past I've been able to one or two uh concerts throughout the last year. I attended every concert and I walked

away blown away every single time. There's not a time I walked away. As a choir kid, I agree and I'm so grateful to you, Mr. Ziggler, for adding you to our community at this level. And so if you'd like to come up here, sir, I would love to present you of the month award for November. [applause] [applause] [applause] Thank you. I certainly appreciate the personal recognition, but what I really appreciate is the recognition for the myy memory spiral, the myy three trails series, [clears throat] and the other endeavors of the Ziggler Foundation. I'm not embarrassed to say that I think uh those are all great things for the city. I want to thank all the foundations and businesses, too numerous to name, that have supported both of [clears throat] those uh major endeavors. And I thank my parents Sherman and Margie Ziggler for leaving a a legacy in Muny that I can never live up to, but I'm CERTAINLY [laughter] [applause] [applause] [clears throat] very nice.

Thank you. Good job. Okay, what we do? Roll call. Mr. Hendershot here. CS.

Good evening, council. Um, my name is CS Hendershot, director of fundraising and development at Second Harvest Food Bank of East Central, Indiana. I would like to take a second to thank uh council member Gillian for allowing us to come here and give you an update. Um I'm here today to update the couple on the the recent news about SNAP benefits and our response as harvest banks. As many of you know, the federal shutdown left many uncertain whether they received their SNAP benefits. Specifically, uh nearly 14,000 individuals here in Delaware County receive those benefits. Today, federal officials announced that SNAP will resume this month, but at half of the usual and those payments are still expected to be delayed. At this time, we do not know when those allotments will be issued. Um, while this news offers some relief, it unfortunately does mean that thousands of local families will still experience significant disruption in their ability to afford food uh in the in the coming weeks. At Second Harvest, we're doing everything in our power to respond. We've waved delivery fees for our agency partners. Those are the food pantries and other social services that um uh uh get food out to the people who need it. Um we're increasing mobile distributions and we're working tirelessly to uh source local donations to stretch our inventory. But I do want to be clear that the charitable food network cannot fill this gap alone. For every one meal that we can provide, SNAP provides approximately nine meals. That's the scale of the challenge that we're facing today. And while we're committed to doing all that we can, we need uh your continued partnership now

more than ever. [snorts] We need your voices to amplify the crisis. We need your support in connecting families to resources. and we need your leadership in advocating for solutions that protect our communities. And this isn't just a food issue. It's a health issue. It's an education issue, an economic issue, a moral issue. No one in our community should be going hungry. Not now nor ever. I want to thank you for standing with us in this moment um of urgent need. And I welcome any questions that you Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [applause]

Okay, Miss Jones, roll call. Selby here. Macintosh present. Green here. Powell here. Garrett here. Fishman present. Goian here. Here. Mason here. [clears throat] Okay. I entertain a motion to approve the minutes of last month's meeting. So move second. Okay. Motion's been made and seconded. Roll call. Green. Yes. Garrett. Yes. Dishman. Yes. Basher. Yes. Macintosh. Yes. Goliath. Yes. Selby.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Mr. President. Yes, sir. I'd like to make a statement concerning uh table ordinance 2925. We will not be pulling that off the table tonight. 29:25. Okay. Yes. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Green.

Okay. Appointments to boards or commissions. I guess there has a been a vacancy left with Beach Grove Cemetery Board with the resignation of one of its members. Anyone here to speak on that? You want to speak on that? Don't for Troy Waters, superintendent of Beach Grove Cemetery. Uh we had one vacancy. Uh, one of our board members passed away a month or so ago and uh, that come open and I just recently got word that we had one resign. Uh, so we should be having two

two two vacancies right now. We currently have five five on the board. So everything should go good until we get it. Uh I would like to see it advertised out and give people opportunity to do it. And it it does say you need to be a lot owner to be on be on the board far as state code and city ordinance.

And so is there any other questions for me? Yeah, these vacancies u made by any particular party or political what do they have to be done by a Democrat or Republican or depends how you look you know part of the state code says it should be a even uh board. So with the three remaining members you have how's how does that

I really don't know I don't think it's uh evened out at all but you know I really don't know what everybody how they are my established there's there are different sections of the code but there's also three different ways a cemetery is governed in Indiana the way we are governed there is no political balance required okay thank you which one is that is that the one Okay. [clears throat] A couple years ago to make sure it wasn't state code. Thank you. Council person that you have.

Yes. Thank you, President U. Mason. So, uh, could you just give us the basics? So, you have to own, right? Is that true that you have to own a lot? A lot. Yes or no? Just give us the basics. If it's not politically, the two main things, you have to be a lot owner. Lot owner. Okay. I think it states, Mr. Gibson might be able to clarify that for me for sure, but I think it states that you got to live in Delaware County, not the city of Muny, but Delaware County. And these are the only two stipulations. Uh, yeah. Basically,

yes. So, if anybody out there is interested on being on the board and they um they meet both requirements, please send uh any council person or all of us uh an intent or a letter or an email that you would like to be on that board. So, thank you. Is that it? Yeah. Thank you. Any other appointments of board commissions that anyone know? Okay. And the committee reports.

Well, I can. Yeah. Uh, Mr. President, I u on behalf of the resolution for getting the committee together for the youth uh center uh we've contacted the five uh entities of the five different neighborhood associations [clears throat] um and waiting on them to get back with us on who they're going to select to represent their neighborhood association. and then we'll sit down with them and have a meeting on where to take it from there as far as getting things done or getting it started. Y

I've talked with uh council person uh Mr. Green there also on it. So uh it's really waiting on the industries to contact us and make sure that we know who's all on there and ready to go. But we did uh get a hold of them. Blaine industry is the last one we need to really get a hold of. We haven't heard anything. So, exciting news. I'm sorry. May May I? Yes. Uh, exciting news and good luck to everybody involved with that. So, and if you need any support from us, other council people, we will be we're behind you 100%. So, we want you to know that. Good news.

Okay. Ordinances previously introduced. Ordinance 33-25. Ordinance 33-25. An ordinance vacating a part of an alley located in block 15 of TH Kirby's addition to the city of Muny Indiana. There anyone here to speak on ordinance 33-25? Mr. President, I make a motion that we adopt ordinance 3325. I'll second that.

Okay, motion's been made and seconded that we adopt ordinance 33-25. Roll call. Any speaking? Anyone here to speak on that ordinance? [snorts] Okay. Yes. Yes. Green. Yes. Yes. Garrett. Yes. Selfie. Yes. Yes. How? Yes. President Mason. Yes.

Okay. New ordinances. Ordinance 34-25. Ordinance dash ordinance 34-25, an ordinance to amend the city of Muny comprehensive zoning ordinance from the split zone of the R3 residence and R4 residence zone to the R3 residence zone of premises located at 100 North Hudson Avenue. Morin Walby, my son Peter. I make a motion that we uh introduce second um 343 uh 25.

Okay. Motion's been made and seconded that 3425 be introduced now. Any discussion? You can go ahead.

Okay. Am I up now? Okay. My name is Moren Walby and uh this property belongs to my son and I am his power of attorney. Uh we discovered last year that half the property had been sold at a tax sale with half the house on it because for some reason because it was zoned two different things, some unknown person got half the tax bill. So when we paid it, all the property was listed correctly on the one tax bill, but apparently it wasn't because some guy in Texas owned half of it. So anyway, now we have it all taken care of. I've been before the zoning board. They approved it. So, here we are.

Is that all I need to do? Am I good? You need to ask any questions? Anybody have any questions? Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Motion has been made and seconded.

All in favor? I All oppose. Motion carries.

Okay. Ordinance 35-25. Ordinance 35-25, an ordinance for additional appropriations, Muny Police Department.

I make a motion that we introduce um ordinance 3525. I'll second that. Okay. Motion's made and seconded. [clears throat] Mr. Degan. Good evening. Chris Degan, Muny Police Department before you've got an ordinance for appropriations out of our public safety fund fund 106. Um some funding for what's titled PER public employee retirement fund to be able to fund the retirement salaries or the pension contribution for the city for the remainder of the year. And some in capital equipment. We look to purchase some new police vehicles for next year moving forward.

Mr. President, could you repeat? May I could you repeat purchase what was it again? Extra vehicles. Extra more vehicles. Yes, more vehicles. Okay. Thank you. Anyone else have any questions? I sir. Yes.

Um Mr. Deacon, why was the perf expense line item not fully funded in your budget process? Um we were we've been funded about there for the last couple of years. Um previous years we've come and introduced ordinances and resolutions to transfer funding out of personnel because we haven't been stably staffed. We kind of use that metric going forward for this year. We've been more stably staffed. So instead of coming and asking for a higher dollar amount for expenditures, we're asking for Ford's personnel. and you'll see a corrected or an updated pension line for next year because we think we're going to be more stably staffed. Okay. Thank you. Sure.

Um where did you where are you going to purchase these police cars from? Uh Ford is the intent. Uh our fleet is primarily Ford, although we've taken um quotes for uh Ford, Chevy, Dodge. Um here in Muny, it's our intent to purchase here in Muny. Um, we did a a request for quotes for um three different um dealerships for it's kind of odd how it works for police vehicle purchasing. It's a it's essentially a contract price through the state that the dealerships can offer at a government rate. So, we did a RFQ for vehicles and I think we're going to go with the local Ford dealership here.

Okay. Does the guys like the Fords over the Chevys or I think some of our guys would prefer to be in the really big Chevy Taho although those aren't the most fuelefficient vehicles. So, we're going to stick with the hybrid Fords that we've been ordering. How many vehicles will you be purchasing, Mr. Deac? Our intent is four. Um, and then we'll I'll be looking at some of the other funding internal funding sources we have for equipment. as well. Will these vehicles be fully out outre? That's just your vehicle. That's just a basic vehicle. Then you'll need to come back before council to request more money to have them lights, sirens, the whole nine yards.

I don't believe so. We still have some internal funding that we can use. We just couldn't make it all work with what we have available to us right now. Okay. Thank you. Sure. Any other questions? Any questions from the audience?

[clears throat]

Evening council. Cameron Grubs. Um I can maybe walk me through just for the sake of transparency. What is like how does this actually work? You know, I know they come up and ask for money, but is like but to the point that's already been raised. I thought we just submitted a budget from the mayor that should have had everything or I would have thought so, but things happen. So, how what's the process here? Where does this money exactly come from? if you're to pay for it, if the count if what the council has to pay for it. And I mean, I'm just going to bring up the fact that I talked last about the budget about how the edit funds had gone up about $1.2 million, at least according to the the paperwork I saw. And so I'm just wondering why it's not coming out of edit versus council's funds.

Sure. Yes. Uh Mr. Grubs, the the budget that we passed that we adopted at the last meeting is for 2026 and so we don't have access to those funds at this point in time. Um, as Mr. Degan pointed out, these funds that he is that the police department is requesting are coming from their 106, which is public safety lit. And so those are funds that are used just for the police department. Okay. Um, and so and were there more questions? I can't No, I mean I'm just I mean I just want to understand it for myself and for everybody else really because I mean none of this stuff really gets explained

and it gets frustrating because it's you know is this something that is I what I'm getting from you is that this is stuff for this year versus the budget would be for next year. This is fairly typical at the end of the year we have line items that have money left over within the budget and certainly within their public safety lit. I believe the fire department's going to be coming up to do the same. We often see at the end of the year departments coming up and moving money because they have some leftover in line items that they could utilize in other places within their within their departmental budgets. And so this is basically just the police department utilizing funds that they have available to them. So they're not asking for any more money. They're just want permission to move.

This is money that is already there that they are just putting into line items. So they're not asking for money from the general fund to be putting this. This is money that can only be used by the police department that's sitting in an account and all they want is council's permission to move that money into line items that they can use for expenses just specific to the police department. So, no, I appreciate you answering that because that's I mean that's important information to know. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Any more questions? More council questions. Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. All in. All in favor of introdu introduction signify by saying I. I.

All oppose. Same. Motion carries. Okay. Ordinance 36-25. Ordinance 36-25. An ordinance for additional appropriations. Mussy's police department. I mean um I'm sorry Fire Department EMS identical. Mr. President. Yes, sir. I make a motion to uh introduce ordinance 36-25. I second. Okay. Motion's made and seconded. Chief Berford.

Good evening. Uh much like the police department, we are asking to appropriate money. Um, [clears throat] and this is in our fund 104, which is commonly referred to as our center township and EMS fund. Um, it's our cash corporate cash account has the funds um to support this. I'm asking for $260,000 for overtime. Um, that will get us through the end of the year. We believe was something we have to have. Um, once again, we're asking to fund this through our through our um fund 104 and not through property tax revenues. I'm also asking for um appropriations for an additional ambulance. Um cost of the ambulance is $267,946. And uh as we've been purchasing the ambulances, we've been equipping them with the new power load and power CO systems.

Um purchasing those together and with the ambulance, that cost is $61,575. So, the total cost I'm asking for to be appropriated for our vehicle line um item is $329,521 29 that'll help get our fleet with since we put, you know, Medic 7 in service. That really greatly reduced our reserve fleet and our reserve fleet is extremely aged and high miles. So, this will help get us, you know, caught back up. So, we'll have those apparatus available. Any questions from the council?

Yes, ma'am. Um, how many after when you purchase this or after you purchase this, how many of those ambulances would be equipped with the power C? Every ambulance is equipped with a power C. But when at the onset of our EMS program, we started with manual CS. We did some negotiating and got some power CS. Yes. But those CS are at the end of their service life. So, we're replacing them now with what Striker Hats call their Pro2 C. Okay. Which is the current, you know, model. And every other ambulance is equipped with that. So yes. Okay. And we will um most of our ambulances with if you approve this will have the power load system in them as well.

Y and that load system I mean that that saves our backs. We have two people out on workman's comp right now from lifting injuries. Okay. Thank you so much, Councilman. Thank you. Uh Chief Burford, um the overtime, is there already overtime in that 104 budget for 2025? I mean did I can't remember because I know that you've removed some of those expenses for 2026. Yeah. All the overtime in 26 is being shifted into this [clears throat] line item. Okay. And so what's going to happen you know what happens now is we will transfer the paying everybody will be paid out of the 104 now. Okay. With if you appropriate this money and then that'll already be prepared to carry over for next year

or next year. Just for clarification, um, so you're transferring all even from general fun for 2026, you're transferring all overtime to 104 or you're keeping it 101. Correct. And that's our wild card. It's, you know, we can predict payroll, we can predict pensions, we can predict, you know, many things. The one thing that's kind of the wild card happens to be the overtime because you don't know how many people are going to be sick. We don't know how many people are going to leave that we're going to have to staff with overtime. Can you tell us how much overtime you've gone through so far this year? about if I added them all together, we're at about $830,000 right now as a rough estimate. I'd have to sit down and figure out exactly because currently they're play they're paid from three separate accounts, right? Mr. President, no, Mr. President.

Yes. And how does that compare with last year, but this time? It sounds like Isn't that a lot better than where we were? It is. It's a lot better than last year. Yes. We're currently running about $400,000 under where we were last. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Council Green, did you have something? Yes. I had a question about the ambulances. Once you purchase this one, how many will you have in reserve then if one goes down? When this comes in, we will have three in reserve, but [clears throat] one of those is in desperate need of removal. I mean, from service, it's costing us a lot of money. And so, but we do have another ambulance on order that will that will be coming in after the first of the year. Okay. So, we already had appropriated for the purchase of an ambulance. This just gives us that extra one to get us caught back up. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Bash.

Uh, sir, why do you think we're doing better this year on overtime? We're fully staffed. A large majority of last year, we were way understaffed. Yeah. Um, and if you recall, uh, in June of last year, we put 22 firefighters on. So, we ran short. We ran extremely short for a good portion of the year. I do appreciate you being so careful on overtime. I know that that was a conversation that we had many times last year on that. Um, you are doing excellent actually comparative to what 1.4 million that we were at at this point last year. We ended up we ended up about 1.6 at the end of last year. Good job.

How my my question for that my follow-up question was so we have ambulance at how many fire stations now? Six of our fire stations currently operate ambulances out of Okay. And Medic 7 is running regularly. It is absolutely thank you. I appreciate that. Ju just curious, could you tell us uh how much those power CS are running now? Well, if we purchase them together with the ambulance, it's it's a little reduced, but it's $61,575 for the cot and the loader. There you go. Thank you. More than a big sale. [laughter]

making a lot of cookies. Any questions from the audience?

Okay, motion has been made and seconded. All in favor signify by saying I. I. All oppose, same. Motion carries. The eyes have it. Okay. Ordinance 37-25. Ordinance 37-25, an ordinance fixing the salaries for all elected officials of the city of Muny, Indiana for the year 2026. Uh, Mr. President, yes. May I make a motion? Yes, you may. Thank you. A second. Is there a second? Second.

Okay. Motion made by council person Selvis, seconded by council person Bastion. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm too quiet. Sorry. Any questions? Anyone from the audience have any questions regarding 37-25?

[clears throat]

Um, are this ordinance 3725 and then the next two that follow, am I correct or tell correct me if I'm wrong, are these the appropriations that were being discussed back the last couple of months um when you guys were doing the budget process and you guys would find that there were some issues um where things were being paid. Is this what this is now, Mr. President? Yes. No, sir. Um, these appropriations, all the salary, and Mr. Wright, if you'd like to come up and and answer that for him, but all these salary ordinances that are being introduced tonight are for 2026. So, these will set the maximum salaries for all every employee we have actually.

Okay. So, that that'll be the same for 37, 38, and 39. Yes, sir. Okay. Very good. I'll let you finish, sir. [laughter] Exactly. Yeah. Uh this is just for all the elected officials for next year.

Thank you. I guess since Billy came up, I'll follow up with that because this is going to be for the next three things, but just because there were there was talk, wasn't there, about the fact that that the city was paying more than than what the maximum salary allowed, wasn't there? And if there was, how do we make sure that that doesn't happen again, Mr. President? Yes.

Yes. Off the top of my head, I can't remember which there were uh but four four um animal shelter, communications director, uh human rights director. There were four um EMS director. There we go. Uh all four of those positions were paid above the maximum salary ordinance. Um I I don't have those figures in front of me. I apologize, but um and that's okay. I mean, it happened. So, I don't know that there's anything that can be fixed about that. But again, like going forward, how does this city prevent that from happening? And like what stops should the mayor or anybody decide that like, hey, we we need to pay somebody more than what we're allowed to pay and just Mr.

President. Well, it shouldn't happen. it if if they're paid more than their salary ordinance, then we're violating a city ordinance and so it shouldn't happen. What what that the proper procedure if they need to um pay Miss Green more than what's in the salary ordinance, then they should come before council and have that salary ordinance amended to reflect a higher salary, whatever at the at the administration's discretion. But it um but what we can do as a council is make sure that we have good communication with Mr. Wright and just stay on top of that. And and right now I mean you're setting like this oops this is the maximum right. Okay. Right. These will be the maximum amount by city ordinance that that the city

this isn't setting what they get paid. This is setting the maximum they can get paid. Right. Yeah. Yes sir. Thank you. Any other questions? Question from the council. Okay. Motion has been made and seconded. All in favor of ordinance 37-25 signify by saying I. I. I.

All oppose. Motion carries. Ordinance 38-25. Ordinance 38-25. An ordinance amending ordinance 16-25 fixing the maximum salaries of each and every appointed officer employee deputy and assistance assistant departmental and institutional head of the city of Muny Indiana included herein for the year 2026. Mr. President, yes. I make a motion to introduce 38-25. Can I get that?

Okay. Motion's been made and seconded. That's okay. Motion made by pal, seconded by Garrett, Mr. Right. Yeah, this is uh setting the maximum salaries for city and I will say that we did have some clean up some language which I'm sure you probably saw this. So,

any questions from the audience? I have a question. Yes, ma'am. Mr. Right. And um and we can clarify that next month. Do these uh do these salary ordinances on all three ordinances are they the amount that was appropriated into those line items divided by 26 or or so we should be able to look at the adopted budget? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thank you. You're welcome. Okay. Any other questions? Okay. Motion's been made and seconded on ordinance 38-25. All in favor signify by saying I. I.

I. All oppose the same. Motion carries. [clears throat] Ordinance 39-25. Ordinance 39-25. An ordinance fixing the maximum salaries of each and every member of the Muny Fire Department of the city of Muny, Indiana for the year 2026. Okay, I'll make a motion to introduce 3925. Okay, I'll second. [clears throat]

Motion made by Council Person Gullian, seconded by Councilman Green. Any questions? anyone here to speak on that? Good evening. Once again, uh this is just a salary ordinance that reflects um the raises that were put into the budget. So, it's just we just wanted to go ahead and get that in front of you um you know before the end of the year. All right. Thank you. Thank you.

Any questions from the council? Any questions from the audience? Okay. Motion has been made and seconded on ordinance 39-25. All in favor signify by saying I. I. All oppose. Same. Motion carries. Ordinance 40-25.

Ordinance 40-25. An ordinance of the city of Muny amending section 32.39 of the city of myy code of ordinances prerequisites to action and ordinance resolution action and yeah go ahead that's I make a motion make a motion that we accept a yes introduce introduce there a Second. I I seconded that. Okay. Motion made by Councilman McIntyre, seconded it by Councilerson Powell. Mr. President. Yes.

Can we invite our legal counsel up to just explain what the change is in this?

Thank you. Uh so this ordinance amends section 32.39 uh in your council rules which addresses the uh prerequisites for an ordinance or resolution being placed on the agenda. Um I reumbered it a little bit just so each um provision has its own separate subsection. Uh so it is it's reorganized a little bit but the only substantive portion that is added uh is that for it to be properly filed uh each ordinance or resolution shall be filed in person or by electronic mail by the council person that signed it or by the uh legal council whether it be the city council's council or the city attorney that signed off on it by form. Uh if they can either uh file it by in person or by electronic mail. That's the only substantive change though.

Thank you.

Grab just going to start having a seat closer rather than away. Uh so just for clarity, this resolution has come because there was some problems the last couple meetings, right? to where it was we had somebody at least according to what was said somebody in the mayor's office refiled a uh refiled one of the the resolutions that Councilman Basham had signed previously but had not re-requested a signature or gotten because it was an exact copy and so that was a problem. I'm not sure what's currently being done about that situation because I don't feel like that was right. But I appreciate that the council is taking steps to remedy that to and what I would ask is if there's not already something up there. I know I've kind of brought this up before. Is there uh can it be potentially amended to require that information like information when you put forth a resolution or an ordinance, it comes with necessary information, a set number of days before it can can be filed and put before you so you have time to look at it because I know it seems like sometimes there's been like not very much time for you to be able to make a decision. Is that already?

There's already you have to file it 14 days. 14 days. But there's no we have to get it seven days ahead. It was like that before and in this resolution nothing's changed. It's still the same. Okay. So that does not But you So you get it only seven days before but it gets at least it has to be 14 days before the meeting. But it has to be 14. Yeah, but there's no and but there's no requirements on what gets so when somebody puts forth a resolution the supporting documents there's nothing that sets forth what's required to come with it. It's just kind of like here's what we feel like putting with it. Is that typically that?

Yeah. I mean I mean there's like different like for example if you put a resolution like when it has to do an ordinance for example that has to do with uh parking then you we know that we have to include the maps with it. Well, yeah. I mean, you would think so. And there are map there are maps that come with it, but we've seen even from the mayor when he wanted to do university that he would come to the meetings with the forms in hand and hand them to you right then. There was nothing put forth into the transcripts into the into Munid docs, you know, anything available to the public so that, you know, we kind of get it. And I'm sorry, I'm not trying to hijack the resolution. I'm just saying like if we're going to redo this, are these things that we can add to it to to make sure that everybody's getting all the information ahead of time as much as possible and for the public?

Council person. Sure. Um the the thought process behind this was put things in place to make sure that situations like that had happened previously aren't aren't able to happen again. Yeah. Um, it just puts it in more of a of a concrete form as opposed to I know that that uh our council had discussed with counselors what would happen in regards to I would hope that if a council person is sponsoring an ordinance and it has maps or other information that they would make sure that that's included when they common sense, right? If

when they um um file the ordinance. Uh and then there's always an opportunity for amendments as in regards to if a new map came up became available to come to the meeting and then amend amend the ordinance. So but okay but yes appreciate you and that is a possibility for an amendment next month before adoption right is to add because this is just first reading for the viewers at home. This is just and Mr. President. Yes. Um, and I just want to say that Lacy Jones, our our clerk, usually adds everything in and you include after the fact. Anything that's added and brought to a meeting, you include that when you post everything after the fact.

Yes. But that does not mean that things aren't filed at meetings or provided to you at meetings but not provided to me here. And I do have to reach out and ask for things. Not a lot, but occasionally. I think that is an amendment that Belinda or the city clerk had emailed you guys and referenced about as a suggestion um to I'll take that into consideration as well. Any additional documents that are to be included just to keep information for the public. Correct.

Yeah. And and if I may, I'd like to commend the clerk's office because Belinda and Lacy and them do a fabulous job of of taking what they do get. I know they don't get everything and I have a lot of complaints and I never want them to think it's on them at all. But it is he's good, but I know that they take what they get and put it up there in a timely manner. Appreciate them. He's very thorough. Yes. Okay. Motion has been made. No, no, no. Okay, we've got Professor [laughter] Bill.

Uh yeah. Uh, and look, it you guys aren't going to do anything with what I'm getting ready to say, so it's more or less just prolonging the meeting, but I feel like it needs to be said. Um, I I appreciate what's happening here, and I think that this is a good step in the right direction. This takes care of things going forward from now on. Um, I still feel like I would like to understand what happened last month. I don't just want to say, well, it happened. We don't know really what happened. Who knows why it happened? It's as long as we don't talk about it anymore, it didn't happen. Uh I want to make sure and I've read this before for multiple things, but I'm going to read this again. This is my code uh section 3208 investigatory powers. The common council may investigate the departments, officers, and employees of the city. any charges against a department officer or employees of the city and the affairs of a person with whom the city has entered into or is about to enter into a contract. When conducting an investigation, the common council is entitled to all records pertaining to an investigation and may compel the attendance of a witness and production of evidence by subpoena and attachment served and executed in Delaware County. Then there's a subsection C that basically just says that you have the ability to compel evidence and testimony. If they don't do that, you can ask the clerk to send a written report to the uh judge in the circuit court and ask for them to uh weigh in on that. Look, you guys aren't going to do it. And I I mean not a lot of offense, but a little bit of offense with this. You guys are not a wildly proactive council. Um I kind of wish you were. I wish you were more proactive. I wish that you would ask these questions. maybe not behind the scenes or not emails, but I wish that

you would take the authority that you guys are given uh that councils in the previous past have voted on and put this stuff in place for you guys to be able to do this. I'm going to give a copy of this to the clerk. Then I have a copy for each one of you. Well, I sit down. We'll do that. I don't need to do it now. But the point here is it would be nice to kind of get to the understanding of why some of this stuff happens. You know, it's cool that we come in here once a month and we do the business of the meeting, but there's so much more that you guys could do that would really help the public feel more confidence in what's happening. When things go wrong, I think it's better to say instead of just saying, "Well, something went wrong. We don't really know what. We're not going to talk about it ever again." It would be good to kind of have an understanding of why something happened. So, um, you know, I you guys you, uh, resolution 1925 is on the agenda tonight. I was kind of hoping you guys would do a hat-tick and postpone it for another month, uh, three months in a row. But, um, you know, I I don't know. I just wish that you guys would look into doing this. You guys could do what you need to do and we could get behind uh, an investigation and find out why what happened because we heard what happened. We just never heard why it happened. So, that's that. Good evening, council. Dan Rydenower, mayor of Muny. Um, may I ask the council, your council, a question? Yes.

Did you get a request from Lacy on how to handle that particular item that's being discussed and provide suggestions to her? Sure. I didn't provide any suggestions. I was asked in relation to whether or not it was timely filed and it appeared timely filed. And as I have responded, I think on numerous occasions over the last several weeks, I was unaware at the time that the filing had not been authorized by Councilman Basham. It came to my attention later that he had not authorized it. And that's where my opinion changed. My opinion that I gave in the email related solely to the timeliness of the filing.

Did that particular email say you can just give it a new number and a new file stamp? Thanks. Sure. If you just want to go ahead and take my deposition, that's fine. That's that is what it said. Yes. Okay. Related to the timeliness.

Yeah. So, I I just wanted to make it clear that uh council person Basham had signed that document. It had been filed before. We reached out to the council uh clerk to the council's clerk representative and asked, "Is there some way that this can be filed?" She said, "Let me reach out to and this is all an email. we let me reach out to legal and see what they say. Legal responded back that she could restamp the existing one. So that's that's why a new one wasn't filed, but there's a new one this time. So that's fine. That's that's fine. But I just I just wanted to make it clear that the the my employee did not just submit this. She she asked permission and got advice from legal if if that that's what was planned. Now it wasn't it wasn't signed for Mr. Basham. Mr. Basham had signed it and the one that was submitted was as was requested. Okay.

So okay had they said no you can't. You have to get a new one I don't know if we could have been able to pull that off. No big deal. Okay. But we just followed what we what was suggested to us been said. Okay. I just wanted to make that clear and I just want to say that the council person has to okay it and that was not done and that was not Lacy's fault. You know, Miss Jones No, it is not Lacy's fault. She did theund thing which is racing. I'm not having a discussion. I'm just I'm going to I'm going to speak now and say that

that council person Bashan was not asked to sponsor it. No one else up here was asked to sponsor it. And that's not the same as having something, you know, brought brought again. He should have been asked. Somebody else should have been asked. So So that's where it went wrong. And that's why this um by No, I understand that part.

You know, this co, you know, sponsored this. Also, I do want to say that we had we we did want to look into see what we could do to try to get something done with this, but this isn't it's it is in our code, but really what this is is our our council rules. So, there's not there's not a lot of bite that we can really really do there. So, I think part of this was that um so it's within the code. I know it's investigatory, but it's it's about our our code. I mean, our our rules, our council rules. So, so I just wanted to clarify that that

Shireen did reach out to Lacy and said, "Is this possible?" And she asked council and had either one of them said no, Mr. So that's why. So just a moment, please. Can I just So mayor, please step back up. So what you're saying is that there was a previous ordinance that got withdrawn table ordrawn

and then the administration decided to resubmit that and they did that without councelor Basham's knowledge or consent and you or your design delivered it to the clerk's office. The clerk had no idea that Councilman Basham had not signed nor given his consent to sign. And so therefore, it was not a valid ordinance or resolution and that's why it got withdrawn again. It well it wasn't ever filed appropriately. So it wasn't even filed to withdraw. We did not file it until after the conversation. I am but I understand. Thank you.

But then so the the signature page was just basically taken from the previous resolution and attached to the new ordinance that was filed. Correct. Yeah. Is that correct? No. I think she was instructed to just stamp the the old one. It was the exact same one that had So, it was the exact same copy put on, which is how we understood the instructions from the council's legal counsel. So, obviously that's not what point of order. Let's let's let's I've got the floor. I've got the floor. Mhm. So then, well,

so then I feel like it was disingenuous that it was filed. Lacy had no idea that it was not with the permission of the counselor that was supposedly sponsoring it. And our council, our our attorney would never have imagined that Mr. Basham, that counselor Basham's signature would have been used without his consent or knowledge. And so and so that is that is where ordinance 40-25 came from because we do not want that to happen in the future. We will not have the attorney perhaps hopefully maybe in the next year. And so the safety net that he put into place personally we want to make sure that it is in city code so that the only legal documents that are filed are filed by either the council person that is sponsoring. So that the signature that is affixed is with their knowledge and consent or by the attorney who has if they are filing it on behalf of that sponsoring council person. Yes.

Then they have they have verified that that signature is being used with knowledge and consent. Yeah. And so I that's all. So in defense of of Shireen, we did not refile it. We asked is that on the agenda and she was told to restamp it which I think she will confirm. But it was withdrawn and it's it's not on today. And so that's I have a question. That's I believe how it went to my knowledge. That's how it went. Thank you. Go ahead, Cameron. You go.

All right. I was just I mean I know I have to ask you. I can't ask the mayor, but I'm concerned here like I would think that there would be a paper trail, right? That somebody if if this was going to happen that there would be a paper trail asking permission from Councilman Basham, asking from council, hey, is it okay to refile this? But it doesn't sound like that's what happened at all. Even though there's a lot of defense happening. It's it's it's pretty upsetting to a lot of people. Anybody that's been paying attention to this, like that that shouldn't have happened, that the mayor will not take accountability for it. Thank you. Don't let him run. [clears throat]

I will take accountability for this. I asked Shireen to contact Lacy. Thank you. And that's what started the whole thing. That's what started the whole thing. We uh we did and we weren't asked to get another signature. And that's on me as well. I just don't want this going on to Shireen because she did reach out. [clears throat] We didn't file it. It was the same one that had already been filed, which is what she was instructed by the attorney, but he was not aware that it was the same one apparently. So that that's and so I will take full responsibility for that. Okay, thank you. Can I just clarify? Yes.

I did not instruct Miss Waggley to do anything. There was an email chain and I believe Lacy said to her and this needs to be refiled and her response was this is I thought this was the refiling. So there was a filing that had the signatures the required signatures that filing from her email was submitted timely meaning before midnight on the deadline for the October meeting. So, when I was asked whether or not that was filed properly, yes, that is filed properly because it had three signatures and it was timely filed within the 14-day deadline that we just talked about, that is it. When anything is filed, for the last six years I've been doing this, when something has been filed by anybody, it is implied that is done with the authority of the people that sign that. My office files ordinances all the time. I have contacted you mostly because you've all asked me to prepare something and that's what's being filed. I know that you are the ones that have signed that before I submit that. This is going to fix that. That we can apparently no longer assume that it has been authorized. It's that simple.

That's simple. Thank you. Yes, Miss Okay. So, the ordinance says something about electronically and I've had conversation or a text with the clerk and she is not in favor. She's not here, right? she's and she is not in favor, correct me if I'm wrong, of um filing it electronically. Would you please if say if I was right or wrong because I have a text? So that's what my issue is with

clerk Belinda Mson has been has shown interest in not filing things electronically for the reason of us having a filing deadline. Okay. So when things are sub city hall is only open till 4:00. So that's how late I'm here. If you yeah file something after 4:00 I don't see it until the next business day which is not the file past the file deadline. Okay.

That was the issue we ran into with the resolution filed by the mayor's office which is why I reached out to the attorney because it was after 4:00 after deadline. There's no time for them to revise this correct signature page and get me the correct documents. That's the only thing when it comes to electronically is just having everything by the file deadline is over. Thank you, Lacy. Uh and I for the record, I don't care for electronic filing either. Um Mr. Gibson, is that allowed by law to file electron?

So, there's nothing in your ordinance that says it can't be. And we had this conversation, I think a couple years ago, it came up. Uh, and I it was it it's similar to our filing, electronic filing with the courts. Yes, sir.

We can file up to midnight. Uh, obviously the courts aren't open until midnight. And so, as long as there's something showing that it's done before, you know, midnight, it's permitted. And so, my opinion at that time was because there's nothing in your rules that say it can't be and we know with a time stamp that it was done in time, um, that it was acceptable. Uh certainly free to change that in your rules if you don't want electronic filing. I will say from a practical perspective um you know sometimes that deadline sneaks up on all of us. Um things are being signed on a Monday that it's due.

Some of you work um and so it's difficult for you to get to my office, get something signed and over here before 4:00. So it's nice having that safety net of being able to get it emailed. Um, I would assume that if it gets filed at 3:59, uh, Lacy's not gonna, nobody's going to force her to stick around, make a copy, and get it sent out to you all. So, her getting it the next morning in her email is really no practical difference, um, with the electronic filing. So, it just gives a little more flexibility, but certainly within your right to change that if you'd like. Thank you.

I don't know why we're talking about this, but I do have a question. Waynecape. [clears throat] So when the resolution was read, why did it get read? If the author withdrew it the previous month and we're looking at it on the paper, why didn't that author say, "Wait a minute. Why is this on here? This is my resolution. Why did it get read? Does it have to be read? Could that author have stopped it before it was read?" Good point. It wasn't agenda. M it was read. Yes. Yes, it was read. That's what I said.

And then could So could the author have stopped it before it was read? Could the author say, "Wait a minute. Before we read this, I didn't bring this back up. I'm just curious. Why was it even read?" That was just And then the reading secretary had to ask the question to get an answer. So if you wouldn't asked the question, would we have even would we be still be here or would it have went on and nobody would have said anything because there was a guy here remember at the podium ready to speak on it. Mhm. Mhm. [clears throat]

So, my problem is if I'm the author of a resolution and I withdraw it and I know you guys look at the agenda way before the night of and when you saw the resolution, you said, "Wait a minute. This is my resolution. I didn't put it back on here. Where did this come from?" Can I? So, I feel like it should have been stopped before it got to that point. Go ahead. The answer to your question was that particular one was on the paper the day of and it was under a different number dash number. So I didn't [clears throat] catch it by reading it until after I read it. That wasn't in the packet that we had prior to that I remember. So and he didn't know it was

I'm talking it was okay. But it was just No, I'm not talking about this is not on you. I'm talking about the author saw his resolution back on the agenda instead of letting you read it. Couldn't the author have stopped you and said, "Wait a minute. Before you read that, I didn't do this." Why did he get to that point?

I my opinion, cuz like I said, there was a guy up here ready to speak on it. my opinion if you wouldn't have made that asked that question it would have went on and none of this would be discussed. So I feel like that author that made it and withdrew it the previous month should have said something to you guys. Hey, I don't know what's going on, but I didn't do this. But that's just my opinion. Well, in his defense, he did say that he didn't sign it after after it was read.

Okay. Any other questions in regards to this resolution? Motion. Oh, sorry. May I

before um mistakes happen and sometimes things and communication I mean we're people and sometimes and I agree with you uh and yes we need to be open and we need to read our stuff ahead of time. Um agendas get amended all the time and I wish uh we wouldn't be here if that agenda was amended ahead of time. It's nobody's fault. Nobody's fault. I'm just um requesting from my colleagues and I will put uh I'll start with myself by saying uh let's get to that information ahead of time. Let's see what the ordinance about. If it's ours, let's communicate with the um uh because there was an incident and I communicated with the city clerk about a certain um ordinance that was brought up and it was amend and we received an amendment. So, it all takes communication and it's nobody's I mean, we're putting the blame everywhere. I think we're all adults and we need to read our material and we need to say what we think and if it's something that I didn't sp I need to do that early and I'm not blaming anybody here. I think things happen and um by no fault on your own or Shireen or anybody's fault. I think things like that do happen. Okay.

And and I agree that we should all have read our materials prior to the meeting, but I did and it was looked like it had been filed and and signed appropriately. There's no way that I could have known by reading the resolution that came in my packet that it was not filed by the sponsoring that it was filed in the clerk's office by the administrative assistant. There's no way I could have known that by reading. I I know that and I'm not blaming anybody in particular. I'm just saying if we all do our part, we won't be here again as adults. Mr. President, yes, I am blaming someone and it's a mayor's office. I mean, they on they did not do what they're supposed to. So, I appreciate this ordinance. Agreed. Thank you.

Yes, ma'am. if it was filed in a timely manner 14 days ahead and they filed it and they did all this because they were running out of time to get it fed by midnight. There was 14 days to reach out to Dale and say, "Hey, is this okay? We did this." And I was sitting there and I watched the surprise on his face like I didn't do it. So to me that also is something to be considered. I mean in as the rules are changed or enforced or whatever. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Question. Yes. Okay. Okay.

Motion has been made and seconded on ordinance 45 40-25. All in favor signify by saying I. I. I. All oppose. No. Okay. Okay, we're going to have to do a show of hands. All right, roll call. Roll call. Roll call. Roll call. Pow. Yes. No. Go. Yes. Garrett. No. Macintosh. Yes. Basham. No. Fishman. No. Green. No. Mason. Yes. Get that one.

Yeah. Mr. President, can I just clarify that five members of our council just voted down introducing something that would provide verification that we're doing things protect us all to protect ourselves. I just I just want to make sure that we put that

even if you look down at the deis you've casted a vote that says I am not for transparency and I'm not for following rules. Can I just point that if I voted to make sure that you do what you were voted in to do to pay attention to what you have to read what you have to go over it and if it's a if something pops up that is your problem. You should be the one to come out and say something. We should we should have been we should be the ones if we sp do I have the floor? Yes.

All right. We should, if you sponsor an ordinance, you should read that ordinance. You should know it. You should know if it comes up or it doesn't come back up. And if it does come back up, you should speak up and say something. And if not, then that's on us. That's on me if I sponsored something that came back up and I didn't say a word about it. So, it's not me not voting transparency. It's me voting to make sure that I'm doing my job that you elected me to do, Mr. Mason. That's right. So, so your rationale is that you're point of order. Your rationale is that you're saying that this is Mr. Basham's fault? No, my rationale. Did I Did I say Did I say the floor? I've got the floor. Okay, come on. Point of order. Be civil.

So, what you said to all of us just now is that it is the responsibility of the sponsoring council person to read through the ordinances and to make sure that if their signature is a fixed that that's their responsibility. So what you're saying is that the person that should have caught that because there's no way for the other eight of us to have known that Mr. Basham did not give his consent or know that his signature had been used. So what you're saying is that that's Mr. Basham's fault. Can I speak now? Am I allowed to? This is the president's Thank you. The ordinance itself has the introduction has failed. So let's move on to Mr. Mason.

It's failed. Let's move on. Resolution resolution 17-25 resolution 17 18. Yes. 18. They changed pages. 18-25.

Resolution 18-25. A resolution of the city of Muny, Indiana, recognizing the importance of civil civil solidity, whatever that condemning hateful rhetoric and promoting unity in community leadership. Go ahead, read it, please. The tongue tie, right? That wasn't me. Okay. Hey, it's it happens. You got it. I'm human, bro. You got it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Is there anyone here to speak on resolution 18-25? Are you going to introduce it? I make a motion. Can I make a motion to introduce it? Yes. I'll second that. Okay. Motion's been made and seconded to introduce to adopt to adopt. Thank you.

I'll second that. Okay. Motion's made and second to introduce 18-25.

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen of the council. Thank you for having me here this evening to speak on the resolution that recognizes the importance of civility condemning hay for rhetoric and promoting unity and community leadership. I'm J.R. Jameson. Many of you might know me as an author and someone who writes and speaks about empathy building and the power of storytelling to bridge divides. But I'm also a citizen of my born here almost 50 years ago and living in this city for almost 30 years. I've gotten the opportunity to travel all over the world and I could live wherever I want to live, but I choose to stay here in Muny and I like my most days, most of the time. [laughter]

Just ask me during the time of year. This time of year, not so much. It's too cold. As someone who studies empathy, I can tell you we're living in a time that feels pretty unempathetic. And this shouldn't come as a surprise to you. Just turn on the TV, scroll through your news feeds, or listen to the manufactured hateful rhetoric that is spilled from politicians in Washington DC and flooded our country. It's not uncommon now to hear this kind of paroding partisan divisive speech at the local level of politics either. The most common examples are languages that demonize the other, like calling Democrats the radical left that are destroying our communities and nation, or all Republicans fascists that want us dead. Four years ago, a study and report from the Brookkins Institute, a DC-based nonprofit that conducts in-depth nonpartisan research to improve policy and governance at local, national, and global levels, found that the perception fueled by political hateful rhetoric overcomes the reality. And polls of Americans showed that over 75% believe heated language makes political violence more likely. The study's conclusion was that there is a deceptively simple answer to the problem of incinary rhetoric. Politicians should exercise restraint themselves and condemn their fellow leaders when they cross the line. But this isn't happening and it has dire consequences. such as the most recent examples of the June 2025 assassination of Democratic Minnesota State Representative Alyssa Hortman, her husband, and their dog, and the September 2025 assassination of right-wing podcaster and influencer Charlie Kirk. And I do fear it's only going to get worse. But in this moment, how can our political leaders in Muny be

an example and take a stand against all political violence that's been ramped up by language that demonizes the other? Change, I believe, happens closer to home. This prompted me prompted me to share my concern with council person Selby. And in that conversation, I said, I'd love to see our elected leaders in Muny be a beacon of hope for the rest of the state and country and be a place that chooses to turn down heat during this boiling point and be an example that can spread not only to other communities, but show that the integrity of office is to be leaders for all people who call this place home. This, I believe, will guide the way for citizens to see the humanity in each other. Once again, going back to empathy, most of us, with the exception of socio and psychopaths, are born with what's called mirror neurons that are the basis for empathy. From the moment we're born, this brain science is in action. It's why all babies in the nursery begin to cry when another one starts to cry. It's why when we get older and we're bored to dear tears during a speech that some writer is giving at a city council meeting, one person pulling out their phone to scroll triggers or gives permission for others to do the same. You see, mirror neurons are the basis for empathy, but they also can be used for both good and bad. They [clears throat] can allow us to see our differences, but also the ways we are alike. That in and of itself creates understanding through empathy. Or they can create group think where one simply begins to parrot the actions of others without understanding or recognizing the connection to dreadful consequences. In Hooser author Kurt Vonagget's final work before his death, a series of essays and reflections published in 2025 on politics and life in America entitled a man without a country. He said, "You

meet saints everywhere. They can be anywhere. A saint is a person who behaves decently in a shockingly indecent society. He prefaced this by saying that in a world often characterized by war, cruelty, and indifference, seeing people stand up against these types of atrocities by behaving decently on a human level makes being alive almost worth it. Sadly, 20 years later, I think about how far we've strayed from Vonica's reflections of saints in America, a people behaving decently and shockingly in decent society, or even Republican George HW Bush's 1988 reflection of Americans as a brilliant diversity spread like stars, like thousands points of lights in a broad and peaceful sky. And I'm constantly thinking about how we get us back to where we were, how we get us out of now and bring back leadership and civility to politics. In an interview I did this past January with journalist Mark Herzgard, who some of you might know for his bestselling book about the Reagan years and others might know him for breaking the news in 1993 that the Beatles were reuniting,

said to me when I asked him about passion and purpose, [snorts] I'm just doing my part to heal the world. That phrase has stuck with me and over the past 10 months I've continued to think about the ways I can do that both big and small. Along with council person Selby putting forth this resolution is one small step in doing my part to heal the world. One small act that I think can spread maybe return us to decency and politics and hopefully return us to a thousand points of light and a broad and peaceful sky. So I urge you council to be beacons of hope in a very dark time. Our city depends on it. Our nation needs it. And defining how we want to conduct ourselves in the eyes of those who will lead us next is more important than ever. Thank you. [applause] Any other questions?

I have a question. Yes, sir. Uh, Council President Salvi, did do you want to define what this resolution considers hateful rhetoric speech? Is it defined in there? It does. Okay. Well, I'm looking at it. divisive, but it doesn't say I mean there's no the second part of Yeah. Okay. But well I mean and then this would be uh applicable to council persons and anyone that we've appointed to any board as people we appoint. It's our responsibility as council people. it pertains to us as council

and so how I'm I'm guess and and I and I actually support civility amongst others but how would [clears throat] this be enforced or I mean is this something where just like we would go ahead I don't know that it's really for enforcement you're just making a commitment to to yourselves not engage in such conduct to yourselves be civil and you're saying that you can and maybe take this into consideration when making those appointments but there is no adverse consequence for engaging in in such but I mean it's just you're making a you're making that commitment. I mean it's that we would be largely symbolic. Largely symbolic. Okay.

Yeah. I mean I think it's pretty pretty clear that you're just you're condemning the speech or committing to not engaging in it and stating that you will consider one's propensity to do so in making board appointments. Yep. Pretty much done board. Yes. Right. Thank you, council. Hi, council. The uh I find myself in this in one of those weird places where I absolutely agree with the the the purpose of this.

You know, everybody wants civility. We've lost a little bit even in this meeting. The the problem I have is that with the vagueness and I think this is what maybe Norah was getting at was that the divisive is not defined. Hateful rhetoric is divisive rhetoric. I did not see it in there as that and this is not a complaint. I love JR and like and what he does and everything like that. this but this is just pointing out the fact that I feel like it is too vague and can whether this is intent or not I don't know but it would be real easy to get caught up

somebody to sign this Sarah or Brandon or somebody to sign to sign off on this and then they say something that somebody finds to be divi divisive yeah and then they turn around and are like but you just signed this you big hypocrite and so that's my concern there is because what I see is divisive may not be what you see as divisive. Me saying I believe in human rights and that people aren't illegal and that there should be a free Palestine and that there should be uh you should be able to love who you want, be who you are, all that stuff. Somebody may turn around and be like, "No, that goes against my religion." I don't believe that. I believe that that tears down the fabric of our society and that is divisive

and they can do that and they have that free speech right. And so that's my concern about being so so vague with with this and and I love the intent behind it. I would just like to see it be maybe honed in a little bit more. Okay. Well, for me personally, I would um have to think twice because when somebody reaches out to be on a board member, I have to make a judgment call. I understand what you're saying and I I'm sure I'm sure we can all figure out for somebody to have a different point of mind is I don't think see that as divisive. I think we all I like different people. I don't want to hang out with just people that think like me

or are like me because then I don't grow as a person. But if you come and make a derogatory term, right? Either way, I know that's divisive because you're attacking you're not I mean you're attacking, you know, you're being stereotypical. But if I'm saying what I believe to be a it's not just a belief. If I can show it to be a fact, but you don't agree with it. That's then you get into then you get into subjectiveness. And so that's why I can that's where I

and we're just talking about people who we right you can say whatever you want your free speech is yours but I'm just saying if if you come to me and say I'm Cameron appoint me to this uh position that's something that I have to consider. Yes. And you and I can have conversations but we're not talking about difference of an opinion. We're talking about people saying things to stereotype and put a big carpet over a population of people and not over a person. Do you see what I'm saying? But what what constitutes a population? 50 people, 500 people. No, no, no. Just I know. But like I'm that's what I'm saying is like I get what you're saying. Well, you know, everybody here on this May I count?

May I finish my last statement? Thank you. But [snorts] this is up to each council member to vote for or against. You know, I appreciate JR when he approached me. It made perfect sense and um we are at a time where we as a council have to take a stand and um I supported 100%. So thank you Ji for reaching out. Sorry. Go ahead.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Um, so it specifically says here in this second thing, it says, "Whereas hateful rhetoric refers to speech that expresses hate or encourages violence toward individual groups based on characteristics such as race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation or based on affiliation with certain groups or organizations. I mean, I think that's, you know, fairly specific. Again, it's just a resolution. Um, it's not, you know, laying down any laws. It's just saying that we would try to avoid that when looking at appointing someone. Right? So, it does say that. It's not just talking about divisive. It specifically says hateful rhetoric that expresses hate or encourages violence. Yeah. So, I think that's fairly specific. It just says it is, but it's not.

Okay. So, that's what Okay. Anybody else? Question.

Okay. Resolution 18-25 has [snorts] been amended. Motion made and seconded. All in favor signify by saying I. I. I. All oppose. [snorts] You would. Motion carries. Resolution 19-25. Resolution 19-25. A resolution of the common council of the city of Muny Indiana replating through the financing of fire station project and approving a form of taxpayer petition in connection where therewith. Mr. President, I move that we adopt resolution 1925.

Second. Okay. Motion has been made and seconded that we adopt resolution 19-25. Anyone here to speak on that resolution? Yes.

No one's here to speak on this resolution. [laughter] There he is. I apologize, council members. I I didn't quite hear um Dennis. I'm I'm with Bose McKinnon Evans. Um it's good to to see you this evening. Um, I'm I'm the author of this resolution that that has been before hasn't been before you, but before you this evening. Um, and this relates to a new fire station project for fire station number five.

Uh, and is a financing resolution. And this is a preliminary resolution for this financing. There's a number of steps that need to occur for this financing to take place. Um, and really this is just a resolution to indicate uh that this has been before the council and the process will start uh to do the steps necessary to get the financing completed. But this matter if you adopt this tonight will be back before you again. Uh you can see attached to the resolution is a form of a taxpayer petition. Uh and this type of financing uh requires uh at least 50 taxpayers of the city to sign a petition in support of the project. Uh that then gets submitted uh to you all to the mayor's office. Uh we will have to get that certified by the county auditor that is in fact 50 taxpayers that have signed it. Um and if it is, that petition will then come back before you for approval uh with a public hearing on the financing. Um and so this is the first step in the process. You may see some reference in here to the Muny's edit building corporation. Um this financing uh will require use of the building corporation because of the size of the financing. Uh and that is simply a debt limit matter. Um the city has so much debt limit. We use building corporations uh when the debt limit becomes an issue. That's how you know 99% of school facilities are financed and a lot of police stations, fire stations, community buildings are financed that way. So, u this is a building corporation financing. If the bonds are ultimately issued, the proceeds will be used to construct the fire station that will be leased back to the city. Uh when the bonds are paid off, the fire station will then become

the property of the city. Um Greg Marts is here this evening. he can answer some questions if you have them about budget matters as is Bob Swintz with LWG and I'm I'm happy to answer any questions as well. Council members, council person go, um I would just like for you for for our edification and just the public to know exactly what this process is, exactly what what's what this is tonight. There's a whole, you know, timeline um that now is a little behind, but I would like for you to go through step by step how this how the whole process works so that we know exactly exactly what we're voting on at each time if you know this is something that you know when changes might be made when you know what and and so the public knows exactly how this works too.

Certainly happy to answer that counselor. Yeah. And I will tell you technically um we could bypass this resolution and we could come to you with the next step which would be uh an ordinance to approve the taxpayer petition as signed. However, we do a lot of financings across the state, uh, all kinds of projects, and we found with this type of a process, it's best just to gauge the council's temperature on it before we actually go out there and circulate petitions and gather signatures because that that takes a lot of time and effort. Um, and if council's not interested, we don't want to really go through that process. And so, that's what you have before you. This is the I will call it the kickoff on the timetable. uh or the financing. So we would get through this process and this is you can see the statutory references for anyone who's interested in statutes. This [clears throat] is under 36-1-10. You'll also see reference to 6-1.1-20 and 6-3.6. [snorts] The payments for this bond issue if it's issued for the lease rentals will be the uh local income tax the the added funds. Now, for marketing purposes, we will put a property tax backup behind this bond issue. It's never intended to be implemented or used. It's simply for credit support. It's very common with this type of financing. We could probably get by without doing that, but the effect of the city would be a slightly higher interest rate. You would pay more cost for it. So, it makes sense to put that back up behind it. Those are the statutes referenced there. You can see we reference the nonprofit building corporation. Once he's at a building corporation, they will be the issuer of the bonds. There will be a lease agreement between the building corporation and the city leasing the project to the city for the term of the bonds. The lease payments will match nearly exactly the debt service payments

on the bonds. There'll be semiannual payments. There will be a little trustee fee in there. It's you typically about $2 to $3,000 a year of trustee fee that will match up. The payments from the lease rentals will go to the trustee. The trustee will make the payments to the bond holders and they will take their fee out of that. Um, and we will provide you with forms of all of these financing agreements if we get to that that point. Uh, and they're all public record for anyone that would want to see them. Um so we would this this simply author approves the form of the petition and says that the mayor and staff can go out and circulate the petition and frankly anyone who's a citizen of the city can circulate this petition. They have to sign the petition and also acknowledge that they've carried a counterpart of it.

Okay. Once 50 signatures are received, and we always advise communities, don't get 50 signatures. Get get about 70 or 75 because inevitably when you file this with the auditor's office, we have folks signing them. They may be renters. They may be living outside of the city. Yeah.

Um or maybe the property is not in their name, but they live there. And and someday I'll get marked out. And so if we have 47, it's like we'll go back and circulate another counterpart of the petition. So, we'll do that and sometimes that takes a little bit of time. Sometimes it's done quickly. It just depends on the community. Uh, we'll get that petition, we'll get the auditor to certify it. We'll then draft the ordinance that [snorts] approves that petition. It will also approve the form of the lease agreement that will be provided with the ordinance. We'll file that ordinance with the council. We'll have a notice of public hearing that will advertise on that. The statute requires a public hearing on this project

and that will be before this council. So, this council will hold a public hearing. They will consider the public comment. They'll consider the ordinance, which will include the signed taxpayer petitions. If you approve that ordinance, you are approving the financing. Uh, and the not to exceed amount we're looking at is 11,500,000. Uh, and that ordinance will contain things like the maximum term of the lease. So typically, and I don't I I would have to ask Bob this, but you can go out normally 20 years on a financing like this. It may be less. It probably will be a little less on this one. I think your coverage is quite sufficient with your edit revenues. We've looked at that ahead of this time. It will have a maximum interest rate parameter. It'll have a maximum lease rental parameter. We'll talk about the ability of the bonds to be redeemed. That means being prepaid early. sometimes will be before you with refunding opportunities. So, that's what we're trying to preserve there. On the 20-year bond issue, most 20-year bond issues don't go out 20 years. They get re refunded around the 8th to 10th year, just the way the interest rate works in the marketplace. So, if you approve that ordinance, we'll also have a meeting of the building corporation. uh the building corporation will adopt a companion resolution that will authorize the lease will authorize the bond financing documents and the bond financing documents there's a trust and denture which is a rather large document but it's basically the contract with the bond holders includes tax covenants uh these bonds if issued will be tax exempt for both federal tax law purposes and state tax law purposes and the benefit that to that to the city on that is lower overall borrowing costs. Uh we will have the lease agreement. We'll have a bond purchase agreement with whomever is selected to purchase these bonds. Uh and we'll rely on Bob Sw's advice with that in terms of how best to

market these bonds. There's various programs the city can participate in. Uh can get an underwriter to do these bonds, potentially get a rating on these bonds. Uh and that determination is somewhat market sensitive and timing sensitive. So

all to come in that process. Um once we get to that stage, we'll find a bond closing date uh and a bond pricing date. Uh and typically the bonds are priced, meaning that that's when the bonds are technically a purchase agreement is entered into with the bond purchaser, which could be a bank, could be an underwriting firm. Uh and then the closing date will be a couple of weeks after that. uh and you can see we've we've provided I I think that you will have it although I will tell you it's stale we will update this uh this was back we started this in August uh but you can see where we kind of go through this process so kind of what I've outlined here has that process laid out in it uh you know and and if we need to get a rating agency a rating on these bonds and again that's a finance decision to be made we we're trying to get the best interest rate on these bonds

and So, it's a market sensitive matter, but if we get a rating on these, that process typically takes 3 to four weeks. You know, there's a filing date with the rating agencies. We'll go get the rating on the bonds, then go out and sell them. Now, I would say I'm talking about the steps to to actually get these bonds issued. Another part of the process, too, is making sure that we time that right. And and part of that timing it right is working with Greg and his team and finding out like, okay, we are ready to go forward. We we need the money for this project. Sometimes we can get through bond approval processes and the architects or engineers or constructors of the project may say, "Hey, hold off. Uh we don't need the money just yet. We we're waiting on weather or we're waiting on a permit." And so we'll just push pause, but we'll have the approvals. So we'll work to line all of those things up. Okay.

And so that is kind of it at a high level. Um but answer happy to answer questions and also my information is available. Anyone can feel free to contact me as well. Just want to make quick follow. Okay. And that's that's you're a bond guy and that's great. Can you tell us like kind of just generally how many times will you be back in front of the council and how many times will the public will we have public hearings? That's kind of what I like the public to know. I mean, I bet they learned a lot, too, but [laughter]

certainly certainly. Okay, so uh we we have tonight the meeting of the council to adopt a resolution approving the form of the taxpayer petition. Our next step, if you do this this evening, will be to go out and gather those signatures. And we'll also get appraisals on this project real estate because the real estate is going to be need to move over to the building corporation because they will own the fire station and lease it to the city. Um, but the let's say that you approved this resolution this evening and we were able to get those 50 signatures within two weeks to get them approved. We may be back I may be back in front of you as early as the next council meeting. And so how many times total might you be in front of us?

Well, I I I So I would be at the next council meeting. We would introduce the ordinance approving the taxpayer petition. We'd introduce an additional appropriation ordinance and set the date for the hearing. Then we would come back to the following meeting. So that would be the third time I would be here when you would hold the public hearing and you would adopt the ordinances for the financing and that would be the last time I'd be before you. Now separately, we will have the building corporation meeting as well. So there's an opportunity there as well if someone wants to see me or ask questions of me. And like I said, my my information is available. If there's people that want to just email me or call me at the office, that's fine as well.

Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President. Yes, Mr. President. So, to be clear, this resolution just authorizes the pro the process to begin to be. There will be many times that we will have a a chance to question and answer along the way, but this just starts the process, puts it in motion.

Correct. Correct. C. Yeah. Yeah. We always uh try to do that on these financings. You know, there's sometimes with financings where you can sort of shorten up and compress the schedule and then but as a practical matter, the way we like to operate is we want to come before you uh several times uh so members of the public can ask questions, council people, and these are big important projects. So, we don't want to feel like people are rushed. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Anybody else? I have a question for Chief. Okay. For Chief

Number one, we all know that the fire station needs to be replaced. Uh, Council President Golian and I both toured the facility in February and it it it's beyond its expiration date. It is beyond its expiration date. Um, do you know, and this may not be a question for you, but you've been so involved. Do you know of any conversations with because that um fire station which services my district um and it services provides fire protection to Ball State to the hospital to all of those they will be able to move the aerial truck to that location after it's completed. Correct. Correct. Absolutely. And so do you know if any conversations with Ball State

or the hospital have taken place so that they can offset some of this expense um for the building? Do you know of that? Like if we have reached out to Ball State doing $200 million investment in the village that they would maybe be one of Yeah. I know that the two of you had met with Ball State at one point. We discussed that. That's correct. Um and I'm always open for conversations with Ball State. Obviously, there's processes, procedures that they have to go through as well. So, I mean, that's not really as far as myself going and asking. I believe that would that would come from higher up than me if we entered into some of those agreements. Mr. President,

and may I speak to Mayor Rydenower? Um, do you have you entered into any conversations with Ball State or Ball Hospital to talk about maybe offsetting some of this cost since this will be I mean obviously and and you know uh it is it is needed. It is absolutely needed. I don't think that uh Council President Gallian and I it's needed. Um, but I'm just wondering if any conversations have taken place that could hopefully reduce the amount of financial expense to the city.

Yes, we've had multiple conversations. And were those successful? Can you We um I believe it's very close. Thank you. I believe it's very close. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. That's good enough. [clears throat]

Good evening. Jason Chaffen, president of local 1348. I just wanted to st stand in support of this uh resolution. I know it's just the first step in this process. I spent the majority of my career at that station. I know you guys have been there. You know, I was actually looking forward to this last month because I was on duty last month when we were having the meeting. I [clears throat] serve as our battalion chief for that for that battalion that was on duty that on our last month's meeting earlier that day about six or seven hours before the meeting. My officer at that station calls me and says you know hey my our the floor drain in the bathroom which is in between this the urinals the stalls the sinks showers

is back filling our bathroom is flooding with water from all those devices. So, not good. You know, we, you know, I got a hold of Chief Burford. You know, we we got an emergency plumbing crew out there. They couldn't actually fix it all the way. They spent all day out there. I don't know how much that costs the city trying to get these pipes that were below the concrete and below this flooring. They're busting up flooring. They're trying to get the, you know, to try to rot these pipes that are old and broken way underneath this flooring. So, sewage and sanitation and water issues have been at that station for years and years. And literally the night of that meeting last month, we were there was plumbing crews out there trying to keep our bathroom from flooding. Yeah. You know. Yeah. So again,

obviously you will have a lot of conversation about financing and costs and all that stuff coming going through these next few months. You know, obviously we're our guys are getting excited driving by Martin Luther King every day, seeing that, you know, our new station that we're going to be moving into in the next few months. It's beautiful. You know, uh it's going to just it'll be the quality of life for the guys that are going to get to work at that station, the quality of life of the guys that are going to be working at this new fire station number five. Hopefully in a couple years, you know, you know, however long it takes to get this completely done from now till the end. Hopefully, we can work through that and get this done, you know, cuz it'll not just for the guys, but just for the community at large. So, thanks guys. Thank you, Mr. President. Yes.

May I ask the chief? Yes, you may. painless questions. Um, just for just for clarification for those that are here and for anyone that might be watching, uh, station 5 is on Titleton, correct? How old is it? It's 50s60s. It was built in the 60s. Yeah. Mid60s is when it opened.

And when, uh, Council Person Golian and I toured it last February, we saw that it has asbestous. It has all sorts of issues that make it ripe for it. It does. It makes it challenging especially when we're dealing with the plumbing issues because in the plumbing chase all the pipes are asbestous wrapped and so as long as we don't have to disturb them as long as there's still a discussion about this project going on. I mean and if we did that we would still have to relocate them for remediation. But as long as we don't disturb that, you know, we're okay. But yeah, it's long overdue.

And so I think one of the firefighters actually encouraged us to come to the front door, but it was because the front door doesn't work. So, there were all sorts of things that that, [clears throat] you know, [laughter] that that show that it does need to be replaced. Um, some of the questions I've gotten from the community are, why is this fire station more expensive than the one on on uh MLK? Uh, one of the things, and I would like for you to confirm that, uh, is this one would be more expensive because we have to we can't just build at a new site that is that is empty lot. We will have to actually demolish station number five. uh we will have to house our officers and apparatus at another location and then we while we build uh the new station and the new station because it is landlocked by Christy Woods and by uh different Ball State properties we will have to build up

and so then obviously with the cost of construction increasing as it is that is why we are seeing an increase in those costs. That's correct. Correct. Okay. Yeah, you you pretty much answered that question. Well, I just I wanted to make sure we got that out there because there are questions that the community is asking and their concern. Um I think there was and I appreciate you council person Golian asking for those steps because the um the thought process was that we pass this resolution which is one and done. Meaning we passed this tonight and it is adopted means we automatically write a blank check to you and the administration for $11 million. And we just wanted to make sure that that was put out there that there are several more steps

that will uh slow the process down, but that it is a process that that is it it is necessary that we do something about that that facility and and I would invite I don't know if I can, but if the public if [laughter] the public wants to to to uh tour that to see some of the the conditions, then I think that that's important. And I think it's important that that the public feels comfortable in that we are just trying to get something with new bells and whistles. Um I appreciate that they will have the aerial truck be able to have the aerial truck. Right now that is stationed across town. It's at station two.

And so in my district we have the tallest buildings. We have the most densely um populated areas with the campus and the hospital. And so it is vitally important that we have that aerial truck on this side of the town, especially since Ball State University is helping to fund that aerial truck. Um trying to think if there's anything else that I've been asked, but but uh and along the way, it doesn't mean that we're going to spend 11.5 million. It's just means it's up to that amount. Correct. That is correct. And so to compare it to what's happening on Martin Luther King, we approve that bot for up to 8.75. Is that what that was? I can't. Well, just yeah, the exact number.

Have we as it's almost it's almost finished. Have we spent that money? All that money. Have we exhausted that money? The we are on budget. I will say that. So, um, when we originally started the process, after the bond was was done, and some of the bond council maybe better speak on this, but some of the fees and stuff came in less, so there was a a surplus of some money available that has to go for fire station repair as well. We have not cashed into any of that. That's so um, Greg's here. Um, he's been been great to work with and he can speak as far as the budget stuff exactly on the station, but we're we're under budget right now.

And that's or within budget, I should say. just real quick. But so since we are under budget on that project, we are able to use those funds on other fire stations that would need refurbishing or altered to accommodate safety measures or to have separated living spaces so that our female firefighters and EMTs have uh their own space to sleep. Correct. Correct. It it's my understanding that any leftover funds from the bond must be used for fire station repairs. Yes. Okay. You know, or fire station improvements is that's what the bond was issued for. Yes.

And I just want to um confirm also so this 11.5 if that's you know that's what just you know what we're talking about at least right now. That includes moving everybody out and whatever may need to be built in order to have the firefighters live and work out of another building. That is correct. We we've been in negotiations with Ball Hospital for a temporary housing facility um in which we would put up a a building to house the fire apparatus and the ambulances. Then when we move back in, we would give that to them in kind for for them allowing us to use their facility. One more. for the time that our station was built. Yeah, I'll let since I've been talking I'll let

Well, and let me just say that the feasibility study that you presented in 2021 that was a result of several years of extensive uh research it and if you can't visit that fire station, there are a lot of pictures um to showcase the need um in that section um for this fire station. Correct. I I can't take credit for any of that. I didn't come into the chief's office till early 22, but yes, there [clears throat] it is in that study, right? Yes. But it's available online if we need to look. Yep. Yes, council person.

And one last question and I'll I'll stop. um a build, operate, transfer, a bot model of funding, if I'm correct, locks in those those fees, locks in that price. So that even in this very volatile construction market, if for instance, instead of costing 11.5 [clears throat] million, the project ends up costing 15 million, we are not responsible for the additional fees. Is that correct or is that right? That's my understanding as well. Yes. And and as we worked and we went through this is that the developer takes that on when the developer puts together he actually and and Greg's back here. He'd be the one that Well, that was my next thing. Since since you said that's my understanding, I want to talk to the person who can tell me for certain. So, Mr. Mr. Marts,

thank you, Chief. I appreciate it. Good evening, council. Uh my name is Greg Marts. a gene development and uh we we serve as the developer for station uh six that we're just now uh completing and would also be serving as the um developer for station five that we're discussing tonight. And uh everything I've heard you all say is exactly right. I haven't heard uh anything that uh I don't think was completely spot on, including uh what you just said uh councelor pal that uh you are correct that the $1.5 million budget is uh is guaranteed. That's exactly right.

Okay. So that if for some reason steel or whatever skyrockets, then we would still only be responsible for the amount that we're talking about tonight. Okay. Yes, that's exactly correct. Thank you. Thank you. Great. Any other questions? Questions from the council.

Okay. Motion has been made and seconded for resolution 19-25. All in favor signify by saying I. It's up for adoption. Okay. So, we'll need to take a roll. Yes. Garrett, yes. Selfie, yes. Yes. Fishman, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. I'm so sorry. There any other business that we need to discuss this evening? Public comments. Oh, Mr. Bill Bri.

[clears throat]

I was going to come up and address the appropriations that I brought up earlier, but I'll wait. I guess the only thing that I want to say um going back to uh ordinance whatever the ordinance was for the clerk's office um you know I'm sure that I'll say this and there will be those of you that will disagree with me but I I truly hope I hope I hope I hope that when you guys go home tonight and you lay down or you sit in your chair or you're going to sleep, you're doing whatever you do that there are a couple of you, a number of you I won't point out, but there are at least some of you that really reflect and and in your minds realize that you're not giving the city your best. You you just really aren't. And and to say or to think otherwise is is just laughable. Um, I absolutely agree with Councelor Garrett's comments about it needing to be your own individual responsibilities. And there were a couple people that brought up the fact that, well, it was filed on this date and there were 14 days or there's seven days. The fact that I'm not even going to put it on the administration. The fact that councelor Basham didn't go to the administration on day one of getting the packet and say, "Hey, what in the hell is this? Why am I signed on this?" The fact that sir, other than you acting shocked last meeting that you've just had nothing to say about this, you've sat there quietly

when you've heard citizens, not just crazy Bilbury, you've heard citizens out here acting like they want to hear thoughts, your thoughts about this. [clears throat] You know, I I the the big question is I'm going to end on this and and I'm preaching and I'm preaching at you and it might be hateful or or mean or whatever, but you guys decided to sit in these seats. I didn't put you there. So, you're going to listen to it. You owe the public every bit of yourself. And if you can't give it, you should resign. And if you think that you can set up there and just refuse to answer questions for years, sir, the whole lot of you, it's gross. And the fact that what Brandon said is right. You all owe it individually to do your best thing and individually you owed it to the citizens to pass that ordinance and and to to gaslight the public the way you were doing, Brandon, is ridiculous. You guys owed it. Yeah, you all voted. You needed to vote to make this put the safety place, the safety feature in place to make sure this nonsense didn't happen because you know what? You guys are fallible. You guys do make mistakes. The mayor makes mistakes. The mayor's administration makes mistakes. So, what I would do is I would see before you guys are out of this term and hopefully the citizens of Muny will pay more attention next time and vote accordingly. I would do whatever I could to try to bring this thing back and

write a wrong that you made tonight. The fact that there are five of you that could sit here and there are no excuses on voting no on this. There were no excuses. And it's bad. It's whatever. I'm going to end it. It was just It was a chicken vote. Thank you,

Wayne. Oh, she's not on the sheet, but I know. Go ahead. Hi. Uh, my name is Ellen Whitehead and I do want to begin the statement by clarifying that my views do not represent those of my employer. On ordinance 4025 regarding prerequisites to action and ordinance, the main rationale that I heard from those of y'all who voted no, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that you believe it should be each council person's individual responsibility to do their due diligence in their role. Something I was thinking about when hearing the vote on this ordinance is that the very function of a city council is to enact local laws and policies. Just tonight, we heard the council amend a zoning ordinance and fund appropriations for the police department. In other words, your very role is to formalize expectations for others behavior in your community or allocate funding for others who uphold those laws and policies. I'll emphasize again the very purpose of a city council is to enact systems and policies that guide the actions of others in the city of Muny. Yet when it comes to your own behavior, you demonstrated a lack of willingness to set clear standards or expectations even in the interest of enhancing transparency and trust among the public. This decision was made even in light of evidence that personal responsibility was insufficient in upholding the correct processes. It would be unbelievable if all the other activities funded by the city of Muny were eliminated because we chose to rely on individual responsibility and in fact a city council would not need to exist in that scenario. I believe that clear systems and policies are needed if the public is able to trust that the people making decisions on our behalf are also committed to policies that guide

transparent and responsible behavior for themselves. All that being said, I want to express my disappointment in how Mr. Green, Mr. Basham, Mr. Garrett, Miss Selby, and Mr. Dishman voted on ordinance 4025. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [applause] Wayne Scave. [clears throat]

Okay. Last month I told you guys I'd be back after I was stopped from asking a question to the mayor after another citizen asked him a question. Nobody said anything and he answered. Then when I asked him, um, the deputy controller, whatever his name is, shouted, "Point of order, stopped me from asking a question." And someone explained the rules to me. And I said, "Okay, well, if we going to follow the rules, we going to follow the rules." So I looked up some rules. So, Robert's rule number 61 states any non-member attending a meeting of a board or commission as a guest have no rights with reference to the proceeding. So, the fact that that non-member yell point of order was incorrect. That was you guys' job. So, he had no right to stop me from asking the mayor a question. I said we going to stick to the rules. Robert's rule number 57. No member can speak the second time to this same question as long as a member who has not spoken desires the floor. How many times have that happened up here? When a member ask a question and then another one and then another one and then someone down here asks a question. According to this, you're only allowed to ask one question until someone else and then the floor goes to someone else and then if you have a second question, then it comes back to you. So, we going to do do the rules. When I get corrected, we're going to do it for everybody. Third point I need to make on this is something surprised me last week. It

happened three times I believe when they called a question and I know Mr. Grubs was coming up to speak on an issue and he didn't get a chance to speak and he was looking like what in the world? Well, I believe it was Councilwoman Selvi that said call the question. So, I looked that up, too. And I think it's ridiculous for us out here who put you guys up there and you have a ordinance, resolution, whatever on the table and we cannot you you decide to not let us give input because you call a question. No, you don't have anything to say. We going to vote on it. I think that's ridiculous. Like Bilbury said, you guys chose this. [snorts] So, we put you up there. So, you're telling me I'm good enough to give you my vote, but I'm not good enough to have input on what you guys decide on. So I think that parliamentary rule is not fitting for this setting because we should have input on everything you guys vote on. There should never be anyone call a question on anything because us as voters, we have that right because we put you up there. And I forgot the other thing I was going to talk about, but this is one comment I do want to make. It has nothing to do with any of this coming up here. I I don't understand. I've been doing this for years. I don't know why I didn't speak on it before, but is there anything we can do about these parking spots out here that's not being taken by anybody working after 4:00 and we have to park across the

street and just because it's a district administrator has a parking spot there. Nobody can park there knowing nobody's going to park in those spots. So, is there anything can anybody answer? Is there anything we can do about those park? Is it the mayor? Is it the city council? Who who can who can answer that question? I think it's 20ome parking spaces empty with signs on them and none of those people working after probably 4:00. Oh, y'all hear that? The signs don't say hours.

Well, it but it says who who can parks there. Nobody ever said, "Have you noticed nobody parked?" And I'm talking to her, so y'all can't correct me on it this time. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Point of order. And and now our memory can't call point, but I I [laughter] forgot the fourth thing I was going to say, but I just wanted to say that. Let's stop the call in the question on on things that we can't give input on. Mr. Okay. Um, we as we found out and as we utilized at the last meeting when question has been called we can ask for an appeal which we did. Uh, I think council person Selvi had called question on on maybe it was it was council person Macintosh called question

and uh there was there was um enough support on the council to appeal that question and allow for public conversation. So that's something that we need to be cognizant of. Thank you for bringing that up. But we do need to be cognizant of that. And if the question is called then perhaps a council person can can um appeal that that uh question and allow public comment. I think that the public should always be allowed to comment. Thank you. Thank you. Also, the reason I said the question was it seemed like sublimally it was put in my head because we was hearing it so much. I was trying to stop and I should have said point of order on the mayor. He he had no right to just go off like he did and so I apologize for that.

Oh. Um, it wasn't that issue. It was just when when when I asked the mayor a question about the edit funds and the guy a point of order. That's that's the problem I had. So, that's it. Cameron Grubs.

Long time no see council. The uh [laughter] uh first I had did have a question. Uh, I've been trying to locate, do you happen to know if for the budget meeting that where we passed the budget, do you happen to know if there was uh, aside from the recording that you had, uh, was there video or audio? I've been asking in the communications department uh, for weeks now and have not been able to get an answer. I don't know if if you happen to know if there is video or audio aside from that recording, you know, from the system. Have you been told anything on that on YouTube? No, we have Can we ask Yes. Can

was it Can we ask Miss Green to Miss Green come forward and and just let the public know if there's

the audio from that video has been or from that meeting has been uploaded. There is not a full video. The video that streamed did not have audio. So, that's on YouTube. You can try and layer that audio and video together if you so choose. I don't know that I would recommend it.

Um, when the system had to be rebooted, it kicked off everything offline. I think you'll recall that your microphones went off for a time during that meeting. So, there is no full anything. I mean, the the audio that Lacy uploaded, we actually had it mash that together into one file, so it was easily listenable, but unfortunately that was a technical issue that we experienced that night. And thankfully for Lacy or Belinda or both, I'm not sure who we have the audio of that, but there is no video and it was never stated that there was a video either.

Thank you. Um but and while I I'd had my reservations about 17 what was it 1725 or 1825 the uh um the kind of the council behavior civility civility yes

I would I would hope that this administration would take that to heart as well and apply it uh to the administration because I feel like I'm not the only one that has dealt with the city uh getting people that work for the mayor, responding at times that maybe would not be seen as appropriate um in ways that are certainly not appropriate. And so I would hope that the the mayor and his administration would take the idea of civility um on as well. Yes. Yes. council

uh camera we just have control of I mean what's I'm expressing my hope that this administration takes that to heart as well and this is like I said it's not a law it's just a commitment that we're making for the public to be cautious and be uh for with our actions and what we say in public as leaders and who we um listen to or appoint on committees because it's a reflection on us.

Yeah. Yeah. And to that point, as leaders, um, I would also expect there to be transparency, which came up tonight, Mr. Garrett. That is not transparency. You know, I try to hold respect for you even after what you did. But it's like, but you can't sit there and say that that's transparency. There's no way that you look at that and say that voting against making sure that somebody who signs somebody who's putting forth a resolution or ordinance has to be the one to submit it that that's to be against that is that that's not right and that shouldn't be I mean you can say you vote how you want to and that's what your heart tells you and everything like that but we all know that that is not transparency and that's exactly what Mr. Bilbury is getting at.

Okay. And I and I like him, like everybody else, we want you all to we know you're human. We want you to all do your best. We want you to all have all the information that you can and we want to be able to to take that information. I know I would like to have the information so I can help support and question and everything like that. Like because there's going to be things you don't know or you don't think of that maybe we do. Those kinds of things and sharing the information builds a better city together. And so I hope we'd be all for that. Thank you. You can keep Is there anyone else that has any public comments or this is empty?

Okay, seeing there's no other thing. I'll entertain a motion to adjurnn. So move been made and second, Mr. President.