City Council - Regular Meeting

And he can be here because I know like.

If we were voting, he wouldn't even be able to be a part of it, right? Didn't we have that issue? Yes, we did.

But because he's with Zoom, he can't vote on anything to do with that.

But I'm asking, so like next month, it was like that? Could he even be a part of it? No, he can't. Yeah, right, not at all.

Well, if, yeah. Okay, so it's just the budget.

Yeah, okay.

Welcome to the September the 1426 public hearing ordinance 20-26 ordinance 20-20 20-26 an ordinance for appropriations and tax rates proposed 2027 Muncie Indiana transit system budget anyone watching to speak on ordinance 20-26

Ricky, that's our newsman. You know, it never ceases to amaze me in this community that nobody cares about raising taxes or spending more public money until they get their tax bill in the spring. I was wondering, since I didn't get any response from the administration, since they don't normally respond to the public or the press, why the levy for the transportation district is being raised 22%. That's way over their maximum levy. And, you know, some of you have been here that I've asked for years and years to get Sunday service, some kind of Sunday service, an express service, or even run MIPS Plus. You know, this bus system isn't public. It's run by an international private transportation corporation that's got more money than the city of Muncie. And I keep telling them, well, we don't have enough drivers. Well, get some more drivers because you've got the money and you've got a tax base to do it. So again, if somebody would like to explain, I don't think, I think they're still negotiating their raises over there. But again, without any knowledge and without any public here, I guess you can do what you want. Thank you.

Thank you. Anyone else wish to speak?

Amanda Price, I'm the general manager with MITS. If you guys had any questions or wanted me to respond, we are still in contract negotiations for 27 through 29. We agreed for 2026 to a 4% increase in wages, $500 lump sum for full-time drivers, and a $250 lump sum for part-time. So that was the only thing that we did. for 2026. Health insurance is a big issue because there was a very large increase for us, very large. Does anybody have any questions?

No comments during the public hearing.

We will during a regular meeting.

Thank you. Anyone else? Seeing and hearing none, then we'll go on to Ordinance 2126.

Ordinance 2126, an ordinance for appropriations and tax grades, proposed 2027 Muncie Sanitary District budget.

Anyone wishing to speak on this ordinance? No one wishing to speak on ordinance 21-26 Seeing and hearing none moved over this 2226 Ordinance 22-26 and ordinance for appropriations and tax rate proposed 2027 Muncie civil budget Anyone wishing to speak on orders 2226 I

Christopher Bilbrey and I I think I heard two of the counselors may be talking about this right at the beginning of the meeting But I definitely wanted to put this on the record and make sure this is something that you guys were thinking about For years and years and years the budget process for the council was handled handled by a three-person finance committee and in 2019 When the election was going on, all of the candidates that were running for office at the time were asked by myself and many other citizens to do away with that process because the council is elected and all nine of you are elected members to the council. And one of the most serious aspects of your job and duty as a counselor is being the fiscal body. And that is something that all nine of you need to be involved with. And that was a push that we asked all of the counselors at that time. When the new councilors took over in 2020, there was a president from the old guard that took over and didn't fulfill that obligation. And so that first year, that still was done with a three-member finance committee. When the new president took over in 2021, they finally made that change, and the council dealt with the budget process as it should with all nine members, and it's been that way from 2021 through 2025. Generally, by this time, we would hear something about the finance committees setting the budget process or whatever. It sounds like maybe you guys are going to talk about that tonight or coming up soon. I would just like to remind you that the public wants you to handle that as a nine person council rather than a three person committee. We want you to have meetings. We want you to call the department heads and the people that you need to talk to before the council. Let the public be here. Let us hear that. Be part of that. And we want you guys to do what has been happening for the last several years. Don't go backwards. That doesn't make sense to do that. And I'll be honest, with the leadership of the council the way it is and how things have been, I'm worried about that. I'm worried that you guys are going to change how it has been for some kind of going back to something or just saying we're going to vote the first time tonight and then we'll just pass the budget in October. I'm not okay with either one of those. Please keep the nine-person council reviewing the budget as it has been and just keep transparency and accountability on the forefront. Thank you.

Anyone else wishing to speak on Ordinance 2226?

Again, Rick Yentzer, newsman. I think the main concern, again, is that you're going to raise taxes, whether it's property or income. There was noise at that income tax advisory thing last month where the city might push an income tax increase before those changes take place in 28. I noticed you maxed out the property tax levy on the... general fund but i'm wondering there's a park bond in there that you want like a 45 increase in your tax levy for it i don't even know what that's about neither do the people if you're letting the administration go out here and borrow money and there's no information about it because they can get a lot of information back today on that bond and a couple others Levy increases and as I can see with some employees and come in I assume you haven't settled with them I wouldn't even approve a budget I just leave the budget as it is Because if you're not going to take care of the people that work for the public and work for the city What can I say?

Anyone else wishing to speak on ordinance 22-26 Seeing and hearing none then, we'll conclude the public hearing. We'll have a council meeting.

oh yeah thank you yes i can't see a word but sure this meeting to order september the 14th 26 months of common council meeting

Let's all stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, please. Mr. Dishman, would you please?

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Including the Epstein victims.

Shall we pray?

Let us pray. Gracious Father, we just thank you today for this opportunity that you have brought us all together, Father God, that we have the business that may come before this council and for our community. We just ask that you bless each and every one that's here and those who were not able to make it for whatever their reasons may be. And also, Father God, the family of Craig Wright, we want to bless them also. It's in Jesus Christ we pray. Amen.

Amen. I'm going to blow my nose. Good evening.

Sorry.

Good evening, everyone. Good evening, Mayor, fellow council members, members of our community, and everyone joining us tonight. One of the greatest privileges I have as a councilwoman is the opportunity to recognize people who represent the very best of Muncie. Tonight, I have the honor of recognizing a woman whose life is a powerful example of resilience, service, leadership, and turning pain into purpose. It is my privilege to recognize Jasmine Taylor as the City of Muncie Citizen of the Month for September. Jasmine, go ahead, please. Jasmine, if you can come down, please. Thank you for that. Very, very well deserving. Jasmine, I have a few more words that I'd like to say, and then I will give you the floor. Can I give you a hug?

Thank you for being here.

Jasmine is a proud, lifelong resident of Muncie, Indiana. A mother, entrepreneur, community advocate, mentor, and a transformational leader. At just 38 years old, she has already dedicated so much of her life to making our community stronger, especially for our young people and families. Jasmine is the mother of three children, Jathan, Journey, and Jeffrey. In 2025, Jasmine experienced the heartbreaking loss of her son, Jeffrey. Yet even though through unimaginable grief, she has continued to show up for this community. She has taken her pain and used it as a fuel to encourage, inspire, and uplift others. That strength says so much about the woman we are honoring tonight. Jasmine understands challenges because she has lived through challenges. She has openly shared parts of her own journey growing up and the obstacles she had to overcome. Instead of allowing these experiences to define what she could not become, she allowed them to shape the woman and leader she is today. And when Jasmine succeeds, she reaches back and helps someone else succeed. Her service can be seen throughout Muncie. She has been involved with Habitat for Humanity, giving her time and energy to strengthening families and our community. She created and has been instrumental in UnityFest, helping create opportunities that bring people together and celebrate the strength and diversity of Muncie. She also serves as a president on the Community Center Steering Committee, contributing her leadership and her voice to work that directly impacts our community. And one of those areas closest to Jasmine's heart is our youth. Through the Young Entrepreneurship Leadership Academy, Jasmine is helping young people see possibilities for themselves. She is teaching and encouraging entrepreneurship, leadership, confidence, responsibility, and the belief that their circumstances do not have to determine their future. She isn't simply telling young people that they can succeed. She is helping give them the tools to do it. Jasmine is also involved with Young Future Blooming. I'm sorry. Blooming Futures. I apologize. Along with other nonprofit mentoring youth and community initiatives that demonstrate something very important about her service is not something Jasmine does for recognition. Service is part of who she is. When I consider who deserves to be called a citizen of the month, I think about more than titles, positions, or accomplishment. I think about impact. I think about the person who keeps showing up, the person who sees a need and asks, what can I do? The person who has experienced hardships but refuses to allow hardship to stop her from helping someone else. Jasmine, your story reminds us that strength isn't about never experiencing difficult times. Strength is what we choose to do with those experiences. You have chosen to turn challenges into compassion, leadership into service, and even tremendous personal loss into purpose. So, on behalf of the City of Muncie, and with tremendous pride as your Councilwoman, it is my honor to recognize Jasmine Taylor as our September Citizen of the Month. I did ask Jasmine to prepare a few words for us because I'm sure I have not described everything that she has done, and she has agreed to do so.

Congratulations. Thank you so much row. I want to appreciate a row for nominating me for the City Council in the city of Muncie for recognizing me over the last 10 years I have worked incredibly hard to become the person I am today. I have faced many challenges experience loss struggle grown and learned but though it all have never stopped dreaming learning or evolving. If there's one thing I want you to remember tonight, it is this. Anything is possible. You can make what seems impossible possible. People may try to put you in a box and tell you what you can't do, but you don't have to live in their box. I choose to live my life creating opportunities, not just for myself, but for others. I help young people start and grow their own businesses because I want them to know they can be their own boss, build something of their own, and create their own future. Through Bloomin' Futures, I teach children and families how to garden, grow, and harvest their food while creating opportunities for learning, connection, and community. And my leadership is rooted in equity. I believe in challenging traditional ways of leading that have left too many voices out of the room. I believe the people most impacted by decisions should have a voice in making those decisions. Leadership is about listening, creating space, and empowering people. I want to help build a future where we can all thrive. I love Muncie, and I believe in the power of our community. If you see something that needs to change, be a part of the solution. If you see a gap, help fill it. If you see someone who needs a voice, use yours to amplify theirs. My motto is simple, be the change you want to see. I'm so incredibly thankful to Muncie Habitat for Humanity for believing in neighborhood revitalization, community development, and investing in people and neighborhoods. To my family and friends and everyone who supports, encourages, and pours into me, thank you. And finally, I believe in unity. We need each other. neighbors helping neighbors, neighbors loving their neighbors, neighbors supporting their neighbors, neighbors building together. We might not agree on everything, but we can choose kindness, respect, and collaboration. Together we can create safer neighborhoods, stronger families, greater opportunities, and a better Muncie, not just for us, but for the generations coming behind us. Thank you again for this incredible honor. I am grateful, I am humble, and I will continue to be the change I want to see. Thank you.

At this time brand Garrett would like to see just a couple of words

We, I, I just want to say Jasmine, thank you. You, you make us all proud. Uh, I can see people out that you make us all proud. It's, it's literally what we need to be is what you are, what you strive every day. And I, I thank you. Um, and I just keep doing what you're doing. The lives you have changed. I don't think you'll ever know, but I think you need to know if that makes sense, you'll never know, but there'll be there. And what you have have helped to change. we'll be in the future and, and, and beyond. So thank you. You do a great job. You are, uh, we are, you are Muncie period. You are Muncie. So thank you. Thank you. Um, I just want to say we had the flood that we all, uh, my neighborhood, I left work, got, you know, got really destroyed. We, we back up to Buck Creek and, uh, you know, I've been here my whole life saying Buck Creek will never overflow. I've been catching crawdads and all that. Well, it did. Um, I just want to say thank you to the, the police, the fire and the citizens, all, all three. Um, I saw all over people helping people, the fire department out, the police department out citizens, helping people in their neighborhoods. Um, when I got home, mine wasn't as bad, but the backside of mine was, and we helped my wife was in a kayak and we were going down, putting up, you know, sandbags and the police department coming through and the fire department coming through um i was just you know seventh eighth grade when 9 11 happened and i kind of you know and that just came up and just to see the unity that that brought as a country but that flood border unity is a city that we i know a lot of people are dealing with stuff still um i still deal with red cross uh and helping people and i still deal with problems that that are going to come through but to see the city come together like it did was, uh, is what we are. Um, we set up here, you know, we all set up here and we all try to make sure that we do what we're supposed to do for you guys in the city. And, but to see you guys come together and the neighborhoods come together and the, the, the emergency come to the emergency services come together was, uh, It was a terrible thing that happened, but it was very good to see that we still all have a heart for one. And I just want to let everybody know that that heart for one, we all set up here, we all have different ideas than we're supposed to, and we all, you know, everybody has different ideas, and we can come to the table and find a common ground, but that was beautiful to see everybody coming together and to see everybody helping everybody in different neighborhoods and different food drives and all that was phenomenal. So I just want to applaud everybody, not just the police and the fire, but every community and everybody that helped the neighbor, or anybody that helped anybody. That's why we are what we are. That's why those kids come to Ball State. You know, they flood here and they love it here because the community that we have here, the different ideas and the different thinking is what makes us what we are. And we come together and we all have great ideas and we learn from each other. But just to see the The love that everybody had for everybody. When that happened, the flood happened. It's something that we've never, ever thought we'd experienced happened. We all came together and I just want to applaud everybody. Not just, not just the police and the fire, but thank you for, for what you did in the boats and getting out. But every citizen that helped anybody and everybody that came together, uh, it was really good to see. And that's just me coming from, you know, Brandon on west 17th street. That's not me coming from Brandon up here. that's me coming from growing up here and riding my bike and seeing us come together so thank you uh just know that we all are one and we all are one and we all love each other and whatever happens just remember that that we all are one and we all love each other and we're all here for each other so i just want to applaud everybody uh with the flood and the way that it you know we we had to handle something we never thought we'd have to handle before and there is ways I think we could have handled it better but I think as a community there's no way we could have handled it better we helped each other we got out there for each other and made sure our neighbors had what they needed and we made sure that we helped them when they needed it so thank every one of you every one of you

Here. Here.

Here.

Here.

Here.

Entertaining a motion for the approval of minutes.

I'll move.

I'll second.

Roll call, please.

yes yes yes yes yes yes

um mr president yes um i just want to let everyone know that we received an email from our council attorney regarding how we conduct ourselves in council meetings and i just want the public to know that that's coming from the attorney and if you don't mind council attorney if you can go up to the mic and give that to us please

Certainly good evening council Since our last meeting I've taken some time to review the historical practices of City Council with regard to public comment There's really three types of public comments that City Council is engaged in I've gone into some length in that my letter I'll skip over some of that because really what we're talking about today is the second type of public comment that being public comment on a particular matter or prior to a vote to adopt an ordinance or resolution. When an ordinance or resolution is up for adoption and called to the attention of council, council should afford the opportunity to the public to speak on that particular matter. When public comment is called for, any member of the public may rise, approach the podium, and address that particular matter, and each member of the public may do so only one time for that particular matter. If, for example, the council were deliberating an ordinance to vacate an alley, any member of the public could rise one time and address issues reasonably related to the vacation of that alley. When a member of the public is recognized to speak during public comment, council should listen to that citizen's concerns about that particular matter, but no motions should be made nor should there be any discussion or deliberation among council members during this public comment period. It is an opportunity for the public to speak and to be heard. Public comment on a particular matter should be efficient and limited to those items that are reasonably related to the ordinance and resolution under discussion. Should a council member wish to respond or address the member or the public, the member may seek the chair's recognition for that purpose and briefly respond if recognized. No council member is obligated to respond to any form of public comment, however. Should the member of the public stray from the subject matter or should the member of the public become repetitive, a point of order would be well taken to direct that citizen back to the topic at hand. Historically, the chair has encouraged members of the public to move along during such periods if they are becoming repetitive or straying from the subject matter. We have not historically enforced a three-minute time limit on these types of public comments on a particular matter, although Council could do so by resolution or in order of creating a new rule if it wishes to do so. At the time that it appears to the Chair that there are no additional members of the public wishing to speak on the particular matter, the public comment period should be closed and Council should then begin discussing the main motion, the business before the Council. It is during this period that council should speak, address concerns, deliberate, attempt to persuade other members, and or make other motions. Through this process, listening to the public, and then deliberating and deciding, it should lead to a more orderly and understandable process, both for the council and for members of the public. Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

We need to address the minutes from the August 20th meeting So I make a motion that we adopt the minutes from the August 20th special meeting second Yes, yes, yes Yes Yes

We have committee reports we have a miss Molly Marcuson Who wishes to speak to see?

Yes, hello. So I'm with the Office of Community and Rural Affairs. I'm your community liaison with the agency. We haven't worked a lot with Muncie in the past because you guys do receive community development block grant funding directly from HUD. But we are coming out with a program that is open to these entitlement communities, so I wanted to talk a little bit about that. That is our recovery housing program. So it's a max award of seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars with a ten percent match And that would go to recovery residences for substance abuse Eligible activities include acquisition and disposition of real property administration lease rent utilities clearance demolition or building a property So usually these communities work with nonprofits who carry out the everyday functions of these, but I wanted to promote this program and get it out to you guys.

Is this for the city of Muncie or is it for the county? How is it? How many are going to be?

Yeah, so the county can apply. The lead applicant has to be a unit of local government, but this would be a unique opportunity for the city of Muncie to work with us since most of our programs you guys are ineligible for as an entitlement community. So I would encourage the city of Muncie to pursue this. Thank you so much. Yep.

Thank you.

Yep, thank you.

Ms. Denise King, is she here this evening? There she is.

I always have to adjust these. Hi, Denise King. I'm the President of the Board of Trustees at Beach Grove Cemetery. Thank you for giving me a chance to just give you an update on what's been going on, and there's a lot. That's why I have notes. First, I just want to acknowledge the whole crew at Beach Grove. They work so hard. Their job's never done. It's a huge swath of land. It's historic. There's always repairs. There's always trees, all those sort of things. And they're out there day to day working really hard at the leadership of Troy, our superintendent, Troy Waters. And just really grateful for the hard work that Troy puts in, especially this year. We've gotten a lot accomplished. We have an uphill battle with trees this year. It felt like every time the wind blew, trees were coming down. We had all those storms. Really want to commend Troy for his leadership in making sure people were safe in the cemetery. So when we had trees down, if it seemed to be a danger to visitors or employees that the gates were locked and that the tree was removed as soon as we could we still have some that we're working on out there i'm just a great job in keeping everyone safe which i think you know is the priority um again great in emergencies when the flooding happened beach grove was not exempt from that we had some serious flooding in parts of the cemetery you know making some of the roads impassable one thing that was really worrisome was some of our outbuildings were threatened with water rising and so the guys were out there sandbagging and really being proactive on that so i think that we really mitigated that problem as best they could. So we also lost our well pump during that time with all the water. And so one of the new projects is to get that replaced. I think, Troy, it's like 100 years old. Like it was really old. So that's something we're working with folks to get that replaced. Continuing to work on the fence. As most of you know, it's a magnet for cars. It's been hit several times. It's a historic fence. It takes special care to get it repaired and stable. So that's ongoing. We're also working on the iron part of the fence to get that restored, get the rust off, get it cleaned, and get it treated, and then get it repainted. So that's one of the big projects coming up. um troy has done a wonderful job of mobilizing volunteers for the cemetery this is kind of something new getting folks out there on saturdays to help restore clean headstones that have been in disrepair for many many years and we've we've had a great turnout i think of volunteers he's done a wonderful job communicating with them and folks can learn a skill that way too so i encourage if anyone's interested in learning how to restore an old headstone, get on our website. You can check that out and sign up. Also, we have the creation of the preservation and restoration fund. So we can put some dollars into that from our annual Beech Grove Cemetery tour. The dollar goes into that. And that kind of helps pay for some of those headstone restorations and other repairs at the cemetery. Troy's put in tree markers. They're very subtle, but the new trees that are planted, they're marked so you can know what species they are. So if you like to walk in the cemetery, you can also learn about the trees there. New signs and road markers were new, I think kind of starting last year, but really been put in over this year. So we had a lot of faded signage in the cemetery, very old. So now you'll be able to tell what section you're in. And when I say street signs, Troy actually found an old map and we did not realize our streets were actually named in the cemetery. So those are getting marked once again. And, you know, one of the other things that's been a big challenge for us and we're still working on, but Kim York, who's in the office there, has been working on it along with Troy and some other folks that have come in and helped and is to update records and maps so that we're accurate. in the cemetery that's really important going back to you know 1841 that's a big job so um and then also we're working on a capital improvement plan for the cemetery and that's so in perpetuity um we're setting folks up for success so the people that come after troy and come after the current board will have a road map to follow and hopefully get ahead of things so we can make other people's jobs easier And then lastly, but not least, we have two new board members and I wanted to thank you all for appointing them. That's Ron White and Pam Ivy. They are wonderful board members. So it's been a real pleasure to get to know them and work with them. And I would also be amiss if I didn't invite everyone on October 10th. to come to the Beach Grove Cemetery tour. We host tours from 3.30 to 7.30 p.m. And we do have some civic theater actors who reenact historical figures. So come learn a little bit more about Muncie and Delaware County and the cemetery. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. President. Ms. King, may I just say thank you for reporting back to the council as an appointed. Sometimes we lose touch with our appointments, and you've come back to give us a really good report on what's going on at Beach Grove. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Okay.

I appreciate you coming. Thank you.

moving on yes committee reports yes sir i want to make a request regarding the finance committee since 2021 all nine members of city council have served on the committee this year that changed and only three members are appointed. I believe we should reconsider that decision, particularly given the financial challenge facing this city. One of the most fundamental responsibilities we have as members of this council is stewardship of taxpayers' money. We are the fiscal body of city government. Regardless of district, party, seniority, or committee, Assignments, every one of us carries the same responsibility when it comes to understanding the city's finances and making decisions about public dollars and how they're spent. That responsibility is only becoming more important. We have already faced difficult budget decisions and we know there are more ahead. Changes in state law, pressure on local revenues, existing financial obligations, and the need to maintain the services our residents depend on and will require careful attention and difficult choices. Ultimately, those choices will not be made by three members of this council. They will be made by all nine of us. If nine of us are responsible for the final decisions, then I believe all nine of us should have the opportunity to participate fully in the work that leads to those decisions. Hearing the same presentations, examining the same numbers, asking questions, and understanding the consequences of the choices before us. This isn't about whether we agree with one another. We won't always agree, but there should be a shared understanding of city's financial position and a shared responsibility for addressing it. For that reason, I respectfully ask President Green to reconsider the current finance committee appointments and return all nine members of the council to the committee. That is especially important in the light of the CEA-1, the Senate Enrolled Act, the impact it has already had on our budget, and the financial challenges we know are still ahead. At a time when the city is being forced to make harder choices with fewer resources, I believe financial oversight should be one of the areas where every member of the council has a seat at the table.

have no ordinances previously introduced and we'll move on to new ordinances you did don't respond to my question not at this time

New Ordinances, Ordinance 16-26, being an ordinance to amend the City of Muncie Comprehensive Zoning Ordinance from the split zoning of R5 Residence Zone and BV Variety Business Zone on permits located at the northwest corner of East Friggin Road and North Old State Road 3, Muncie, Indiana.

I have a motion to introduce.

So moved.

I second. Seconded.

those wishing to speak on ordinance 16-26 good evening council kylene swackhammer from the plan commission i just need to call your attention um to an error in the paperwork that was submitted for ordinance 16-26 the location of the property is described as at the northwest corner of east riggan road in north old state road 3 and it should be the southwest corner So that was just an error in the cover page submitted by my office and then also then was copied onto the agenda. So just asking the council if they could amend that as they are introducing the ordinance.

I'll make a motion that we, I'm sorry.

No, you go ahead.

That we change the title from Northwest Corner to Southwest Corner. I think that's the only place that that's listed.

We have a second. Ms. Bell.

Actually, I'm sorry. It's also down, it looks like, right before Section 2. So... Can we just say wherever it says Northwest, we say Southwest? Okay.

Okay. I do have corrected copies for the board members as well.

Okay. We'll vote on that. Roll call. Mr. Dishman?

Yes. Ms. Gullion?

Yes. Yes.

Mr. Mason? Yes.

Mr. McIntosh? Yes.

Yes Yes Yes I'd like to make a motion that we introduce ordinance 16-26 as amended Second Roll call for that please

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Discussion on this order 1626 Good evening. My name is Kathy van ice and I'm from Ashton land surveyor at 325 West Washington we do come before you tonight with approval from the or not approval a vote of

Mr. President. Yeah, so I don't have to introduce it again. Okie doke. Alright. All good. Moving on then to Ordinance 1726.

Ordinance 17-26 and Ordinance amending Chapter 104 of Title 4 with regard to designated outdoor refreshment areas. Motion to introduce.

So,

Discussion on 1726 anyone wishing to speak in the public We have someone making their way forward

good evening carly creek king executive director of magics wanted to express my gratitude to sarah and roe for pushing this forward um a door that included magics and cornerstone has been a big dream for us and uh something that i've personally been working towards over the last year and a half expanding that dora into our neighborhood really helps strengthen that connection to the center core of downtown compliments investment that our community is already making and the four million dollar investment that the state is going to make through the ready funds I want to share our commitment as Mad Jack's and being a safe and reliable partner in stewarding that expansion and then continuing the revitalization of downtown so thank you as you consider this anyone else wishing to speak from the audience

Mr. President. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

I have a question, and I'm not sure who made the new map. If the intent is to include Cornerstone and Madrax, I'm curious why the door was extended all the way to Vine Street.

That's actually... my fault so we have it to bind to get down to Adams Street we also included culinary cottage and Adams Street chop house they were also wanted to be included we could still cut off part you know the part that is in front of them but we just when I talked to yeah there is yes then we just sort of kept it as this but we if If there's, you know, if we wanted to talk about changing some of it, we could, but we wanted to make sure that Culinary Cottage and Adams Street are also in there along with Cornerstone and Mad Jacks.

Well, then were the neighbors in that area, were they contacted regarding, because I can see where Mad Jacks and Cornerstone, because those are parking lots and large structures, but when you start moving into Vine Street. over you have residences and I'm just curious what the neighbors thought.

We did speak with one neighbor in particular at least three though are residents in that area that run along that street. So we did speak with them. They were aware of this.

Well I think that we did talk about

talking to the neighbors and that was something that we discussed so maybe before next month we can make a bigger effort to get to all of those homes because is there there's a daycare uh well on the other side on the other side of mine yeah vine is vine is the boundary but on the east side of vine would be the daycare united right right yes the it does not extend to united daycare okay it stops in that street yes okay

I just want to mention that with the creation of DORA that Sarah and I were the first part. I think DORA has went well in Muncie. We have people, residents and businesses have complied. and followed the rules, I think that was a great success for us and that's why we decided to allow other businesses to be a part of it and to include the downtown further down with the other businesses that wanted to be a part of DORA. Just a reminder for the public, DORA does not mean at any time you're gonna grab a beer and walk down any street. That is at certain times, at certain events that they have to apply to. So it's not open container for anybody. It's just during special events, this thing happens. And then I do believe they come in front of the city and they ask for permission and a permit for it. So even if there's a daycare, it's not going to be something happening when kids are in daycare. I just want the public to know that it's regulated.

All right. Mr. President? It was answered.

I went to the dick here, so I'm glad that you made that we got that answered. But as I'm looking at the map, I wish everybody could have a map, but it is relatively contained to the Chophouse, Mad Jacks, and the Civic Theater. And Cornerstone. So I do thank you for the way the map was made. As I look at it, it is very contained to where you walk to with an open container from the Chop House to Mad Jacks to Cornerstone to maybe you're going to see a play too. It's very mapped out. Thank you for bringing up the daycare. I appreciate that. That's very... You did a good job of making sure that this is very contained to not straying away from the map kind of of where you're going to go. So I do applaud the map in the area that is marked off of where, you know, the kind of open container law can be. So thank you.

Any other council members or questions?

I just have a question so I can clarify it to the neighbors because I know we were in support of the Cornerstone and the Mad Jacks I'm not speaking for the Association because we talked about it several months back I'm just want to clarify so this means that somebody could get during this special event like if there's something at Cornerstone the somebody or a group of people could have alcohol and they would be able to walk down Monroe Street and down the 600 block of Washington on both sides and down Vine Street if they stayed on the west side of the sidewalk how far down to Gilbert

To Washington.

Okay, so Cornerstone people couldn't cross over into their, like they couldn't have a party in their one main lot. They couldn't walk across the street to their overflow. Okay, I'm just, okay. So it only would impact like the south side of Washington Street.

To Vine, okay. Do you want to see the map?

Well, I can probably get one a copy of it I just want we don't we don't have in a neighborhood meeting because a festival and so it might be important to know about beef before next

Okay, thank you. Ms. Thorne, I do believe that the city, when we first had Dora, had meeting and more explanation and explained it to the businesses. I'm sure something like that would probably happen to continue. I just want the public to know I'm worried about people thinking that that alcohol needs to be in a special container, like the cup that's designated Dora. There will be signs on every corner where it is. To help with enforcement.

Okay. And I'm only, I mean, only so I can have enough answers if the questions are raised, you know.

Sure. Okay. And I'll follow up with what Councilwoman Selby is saying, too. Yes, it's not like you can just grab your own, you know. You have to go to one of these places you have to go to if Cornerstone or Mad Jackets is having something, so Guardian is in there. If you're at Adams Street, chop house or culinary cottage. You can't just grab a cup and bring your own, so.

Okay. Okay. And I'm, you know, we were very much in favor of it. It just, this little next, that was just a question that I'm sure how people will, you know, be concerned just in that small area. Right. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

I get to put her in Monopoly.

Let's just make sure everyone from the public who wishes to speak on this has their opportunity and then move into our deliberative function.

I just, I like all of the back and forth and the questions that you guys are asking and the passion that you guys are putting into this. I just wish you guys put as much passion into this as you did about serious stuff like the budget. Thank you.

Anyone from the public wishing to speak on Ordinance 1726? Okay. Any more discussion from council on the introduction of this ordinance? Questions, comments? Seeing and hearing none, roll call, please.

Yes. Yes. yes yes yes no

Moving on to Ordinance 18-26.

Ordinance 18-26, an ordinance of the City of Muncie requiring the adornment of city-owned police in fire vehicles with the slogan, In God We Trust.

Do you entertain a motion to introduce? I'll make a motion we introduce 18-26.

I'll second that.

Discussion from the public on 18-26.

Thank you. I'm going to try to say this quick. When I look at Ordinance 1826, the first question I ask myself is a very simple one. Is this a need or a desire? I think that's a question every one of us has had to ask ourselves, especially in this economy. When money is tight at home, we look at our expenses and decide what is essential and what can wait. I believe our city should be doing the same thing. Our responsibility isn't simply to spend money because we have an idea we'd like to see implemented. Our responsibility is to make sure taxpayer dollars are being spent where they can make the greatest difference for the people who live here. I have some questions about Ordinance 1826. If we're talking about painting or adding a message to city vehicles, does that paint provide any additional protection? Does it make the vehicle safer? Does it improve the vehicle's ability to serve our police officers or our residents? I am not asking these questions to attack anyone's beliefs. People have a right to their faith, and I respect that. I'm asking about priorities. We have 27 newer hybrid patrol vehicles, along with other fleet updates, including two Harley Davidson motorcycles. That's at least 29 vehicles that we know about. If the proposed work associated with this ordinance costs approximately $2,000 to $5,000 per vehicle, we're potentially talking about somewhere between $58,000 and $145,000 for those 29 vehicles alone. That's real money. And I have to ask, is that where our limited resources are needed most right now? Because there are other needs in our city that have a direct and measurable connection to health, safety, and the people who serve this community. For example, did you know that a commercial washer extractor designed specifically to clean firefighters' turnout gear can cost around $4,800? And as I understand it, Station 3 needs one of those. Think about that. A machine that properly cleans firefighters' protective gear directly relates to the health and safety of the people who run toward an emergency when the rest of us are running away. That's a need. That's something I can understand prioritizing. Our city is facing a significant loss of property tax revenue and other financial impacts from changes in federal policy And that makes prioritization even more important. This isn't about being for or against a particular message. It isn't about being for or against someone's religion. And it isn't about criticizing the people who proposed this ordinance. It's about something much simpler, priorities. When a family has limited money, they buy groceries before decorations. When a business has limited money, it takes care of essential equipment before making cosmetic improvements. And when a city has limited taxpayer dollars, I believe we should do the same. Needs first, desires second, and the health, safety, and well-being of our community above everything else every single day. Thank you.

I'm gonna be a lot shorter than Chelsea was. Cheyenne Reed, I actually live in your district. Cheyenne Reed. I actually live in your district, Mr. Green. I was around for the flooding a few weeks ago. I would have liked to see an ordinance that helped your neighbors with that. I'm not sure if these decals are going to help response time with fire and police and things like that. Seems like a waste of money. I would rather see equipment and, I don't know, the fire station we were talking about, move money to there. I just definitely oppose, and that's all I'm going to say because I have a line of people that are hopefully also going to oppose this.

yesterday I had a little bit of extra time like we were going shopping and I had a little extra time after so I asked my parents if I could stop by the fire stations and ask hey did you ask for the stickers or anything like that to be put on the safety vehicles I stopped by six out of the seven stations and five out of the seven answered Almost all of them said they had no idea about it at all. One said they knew about it, but they didn't ask for it and they weren't asked if they wanted it at all. So who asked that like we needed this? Like, I don't think it helped save lives at all. I even spoke to an officer who said they didn't believe either chief had even brought it up at all. And they probably would have brought it up during when they were getting new vehicles and getting like new paint and all that. So.

um who proposed it okay please before you speak tell us your name please

Sure. My name is Holly Yipe, J-U-I-P. I am a student of history, political science, civil liberties. I'm also a local advocate. I lived in District 3. And Brandon, I just want you to pay attention to this, too, because you represent me in District 3. And when I ran for office and you ran for office, you said that you were going to be the voice to the voiceless. You were going to represent underserved and forgotten communities. You said that you were all about inclusivity. But I know that when the mayor appointed a racist homophobic to a board, you didn't even answer my email.

What one was that? What board? It was the land bank. Okay.

Yeah, you didn't respond.

Who was the nominee? Do you know that person?

Do I know that person? They were openly racist and homophobic, and it doesn't matter.

Let's get back. I just want you to know that you... Make sure that we're giving the truth.

Okay. So this is my time, and I do not cede it to you.

Okay.

Members of Council, thank you for allowing me to speak. I'm asking you to reconsider putting In God We Trust on our police cars and fire trucks. This is not an argument against God or against anyone's right to practice and express their faith. It's about whether a government-owned vehicle representing the authority of our city should carry a religious message. I want to be clear. I'm not anti-police. I'm pro-justice. I believe our police officers and our first responders deserve our support, and I also believe that that support means holding our institutions to the highest standards of fairness, inclusion, and service to every person in our community. We also need to acknowledge the history behind this conversation. The roots of modern policing include slave patrols, which were created to control enslaved people and suppress resistance. After the Civil War, law enforcement was used to enforce black codes and later Jim Crow laws. These restricted the rights of black Americans, and the Bible was misused by politicians as justification for these atrocities. This history isn't ancient. Some people are sitting in this room today who were born while Jim Crow laws were still being upheld and enforced. We also have a history of religious morality being used to justify discrimination against LGBTQ plus people, including the police harassment that led to the Stonewall uprising in 1969. That history doesn't mean that today's police officers or firefighters hold these beliefs, but it does mean that we should be thoughtful and intentional about putting religious language on vehicles that represent all of us, particularly vehicles that represent law enforcement. So here's also a very practical question that Chelsea also brought up. What does this decal accomplish? Does it reduce crime? Does it make firefighters respond faster? Does it improve emergency services? Does it make our streets safer? There's no evidence from cities that have adopted this that it makes anything safer. But there is evidence of what does make our city safer. Community safety comes from things that we know work. adequate staffing, quick response times, effective community policing, violence prevention, economic stability, health care access, and strong infrastructure. So instead of putting a religious message on city vehicles that creates an unnecessary controversy, it opens our community to ridicule, complaints, potential legal challenges and lawsuits, as well as a tremendous amount of time and public resources that could be spent addressing actual community needs. So why are we creating a problem when there isn't one? Our police cars and fire trucks should communicate something that every resident can stand behind. We are here to protect you. We are here to serve you. We will respond when you need us. Those messages don't require a particular faith. If individuals, officers, firefighters, or residents want to put in God we trust on their personal vehicles, that's their choice. But when it's placed on a vehicle owned and operated by the city, it becomes a statement associated with all of us. We have an opportunity to choose a message that brings our community together rather than one that unnecessarily divides us. I respectfully ask that the council leave religion to individuals and keep our city vehicles focused on what they're actually here to do. Serve and protect every person in this community. I also think... And I could be wrong, but I think our AFSCME, I'm so bad at saying that, I think that they're still waiting on raises since 2023. So if it could be, what, $120,000 for decals, could we finally give people raises when we've given the police and fire raises like three times?

Wayne Scaife, first I wanna say thank you, Ms. Thornburg, because when you got up here and spoke and asked questions, you proved the importance of asking questions and getting answers when they try to stop us from doing that. So thank you. And you looked like you was engaging with all the council. So thank you for doing that. That's proof that we should be able to ask questions and get answers instead of you telling us, no, the council can't answer any questions. So thank you for doing that tonight. First of all, I want to say I am a Christian, but I'm against this because I believe you're forcing Christians religion on others and my first question is who is the we in in god we trust not everybody believe in god i do but i think it's offensive for uh atheists agnostic buddhists to be putting stuff like that on it and they live in this city So you're speaking from the standpoint of how you feel, Mr. Green. I know you're the author of this ordinance, and I just don't feel like you should be forcing your beliefs on the whole city. And I got one question for the attorney as I step away. I do believe this violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. And the Establishment Clause says, It bans the government from setting up an official national religion, endorsing a faith, or favoring religion over non-religion. So I hope y'all don't vote for this. And attorney, can you address that question for me, please? Thank you.

Thank you. I would note that even in the ordinance, we have put some authority. That phrase has been used both by the Indiana Bureau of Motor Vehicles and on our U.S. currency, so I'm confident that it does not violate the Establishment Clause.

My name is Rodney Vaughn. Question, I'm kind of wondering, do you all really have the whole amount that it's going to cost Does anybody have the whole amount, Mr. Green? Do you have the whole amount it's going to cost?

We were told that this would run between $1,500 and $3,000, and it would be paid out of edit funds. And that's it for all those vehicles? That's it. There would be small decal that would go on the vehicles. So, okay. We're not painting the vehicles again. That's including all the SWAT vehicles. That's including every vehicle that you have, right? Mm-hmm. And you said it's only 3,000 vehicles. How many vehicles is it? I do not know, sir.

Mr. Green? President Green? Yes. We know that there's take-home cars for all the police officers, so that's at least 90. Let's ballpark to get that. 100. Well, I was being conservative. And then the motorcycle, I mean.

And then the motorcycles, and then you have the. 150.

Fire trucks.

Those figures don't add up unless you're doing it for $2.

We've already had someone look into it, and that's the price they gave me. Okay, can we get a real price before you vote on it? Because to me, that's awful low. We're only in the introduction stage. Okay. All right. Have a good one. And we can have that before the next meeting.

Okay. Please do.

You have people back there behind you.

Hello, everyone. My name is Misty Barton. It's been a while since I've been here. I got a little emotional earlier. It's been about 11 years. It's nice to see you guys. I have a little pressure because Dale Bashan was my high school speech teacher at Southside High School. But speaking of Southside High School, one of my best friends who graduated with me from Southside High School His name is Amir Shabazz and his given name was Brian Conley. His mother and my mother were roommates at Ball Memorial Hospital when we were born. And I can't imagine, excuse me, I can't imagine being a Muslim, a Jew in Muncie. working for the street department and being required to drive or ride around in a truck or any vehicle that paints me as someone who trusts in God. And while we know there are religious differences, Jews believe in God, Muslims see Jesus Christ as the Messiah, you guys are opening yourself up to some lawsuits here. And I want to be clear. Delaware County and Muncie does not have a history of listening to people or attorneys even when they tell them, you should not do this. I'm telling you, for legal purposes, you should not do this. For moral purposes, you should not do this. I am a Christian and I am Catholic and I love Jesus Christ, but I am against this ordinance. It is not a city's place. to tout Christian beliefs. That is to be done within your family, that is to be done within your church, and maybe not at all if that's what you believe. And I'll go to my notes. the gentleman who spoke before me referenced the establishment clause as a former journalism teacher i i don't know if i could say it right now but at one point my students were all required to memorize the first amendment and you all should know that congress shall make no um let me see if i can start from the beginning congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or Prohibiting the free exercise thereof, I believe. It's been a long time. I haven't taught journalism in over 20 years. But it's a First Amendment issue. Let me see if I've left anything out. The other thing I wanted to give you all fair warning some of you are older some of you are younger We have all ages up there. I just had two grandsons for the first time one in April and another one five weeks later I am a new grandmother. I am now taking very seriously the fact that I need to go on record for my grandchildren and I need to Let them know that I formally opposed a lot of the nonsense that the Republican party has done nationwide. It is not... It is not too late either for any of the members of this body to vote democratically when the need or the desire hits them because it is your duty, especially when constituents in your working class districts elected you to do that. So just because you turned Republican, it doesn't mean that you have to vote Republican. You vote with your conscience and with your heart. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. However, I will go on record for my grandchildren and for history's sake because history keeps records of how you're voting and what you support and, at the end of the day, my morals and the need to not – Well, your need and your job really not to pounce on civil rights of others should take precedence over everything else you do. Thank you.

rita faulkner muncie indiana dear council members don't spend my taxpayer money putting in god we trust on muncie's fire truck and police vehicles rather spend the money helping the people of muncie i am agnostic i don't know that there is a god or gods, and I don't know if god or gods don't exist. On a less personal note, the US Constitution states in Amendment 1, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free expression thereof. Muncie shouldn't either. Thus, I have no problem with firefighters and police officers choosing as individuals to wear medals or anything else that is permitted by their uniforms within God we trust imprinted on them. But this should be their choice with no pressure put on them or those who choose not to wear such insignias. And this should certainly not be at the taxpayer's expense. Though I know it is very dear to the hearts of some of you, I would like to add that I object to the invocation prayers said aloud at these meetings. If you must have If you must have invocations, there should be moments of silence where prayers, if desired, can be said silently. To conclude, the city should not be using taxpayer money, whatever the cost, on putting in God we trust a municipal tax Vehicles. The beliefs of all residents of Muncie should be respected. Thank you.

Good evening. I'm Jerry Waite. I live in Muncie. I have two thoughts on this. Number one, my ancestors came here in 1632 in order to get away from a country where religion was imposed on them. They came to establish a country where they could practice their religion freely. but didn't impose it on someone else. And, you know, considering the number of Islamic taxpayers you have in this county and what they contribute to the county, as well as some Buddhists and some Jews, I don't think you should be putting In God We Trust on our vehicles. Okay, second part of this is as a former body shop manager at General GMC here in the county, I have personally supervised and priced and charged for the re-lettering of fire trucks for this city many times over. It's done with gold leaf and you're not going to touch it for a few thousand dollars. It's just simply very, very expensive. So the fire trucks alone are going to cost way more than what you're talking about. And by the time you do 115 police cars with something that's good enough to withstand washing and wear, You know you're I I think you're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars way more than what Chelsea was talking about Just I mean that's just off the cuff, but it's something that I priced and something that I've been Involved with for many many years. I don't know where you got the price, but I think you better think twice We need we need the money we need the money in our budget here in this city. We really do and

Audie Barber, in God we trust, all others pay cash.

How many times have you heard that saying? A lot. We don't have the money to spend on it, don't do it. Plus, I believe in God. Every ounce of my body believes in God. But you're imposing this on people that do not deserve this imposed on them. It's brought up that the license plates have in God we trust on them. But you know what? You got an option on those. It's not imposed on everybody. You can pick the one that says in God we trust or you can pick one that does not say that. You guys, Mr. Green, by imposing this on everybody. And I believe in God. I believe in God as much as I'm standing here breathing. I believe in God. But you can't do this. Brookville a few years ago got sued because they had a nativity scene on public property. Guess what? Brookville lost. You will lose this. You will have lawsuits lined up out the door. And the city of Muncie will have to settle every one of those lawsuits in order to move ahead. This is a bad choice. I know you believe in God. I believe in God. But I think you need to take all these people into consideration. You've had six or eight or ten people stand up here and talk to you about this. Maybe you need to withdraw this ordinance. Thank you.

Hi, Daisy Dale, local resident. Long time no see. I was just curious, would this also apply to flock cameras or license plate readers or drones or anything like that?

This only has to do with emergency vehicles. Okay.

And so you're sure the budget's like $1,500 to $3,000? That's what I was told. Okay. So if it's higher, I mean, what are you going to tell us?

The number I told that gentleman a little bit ago, we'll bring a number next meeting if this passes this evening to go on. This is only an introduction.

Yeah, but I mean, it should be written well before, right? Before it goes up for introduction when it's drafted. I mean, you should kind of have a clear idea of, I mean, it should be in the ordinance too, right? The quote? Yeah, but well, the quote wasn't in the ordinance, was it?

No, it's not.

Okay. Well, it should be in the quote. I mean, the quote should be in the . Okay. Thank you.

Lynn Thornburg. I have a question because somebody said, well, if, you know, wanted to have them on the car, just let them have it on their uniform. police and or firemen allowed to have buttons or medals or anything on their uniform that would say, in God we trust? And if so, why not? I mean, that question is, I'm just trying to raise the issue that if they can't wear it on their uniform, why should they wear it on their car or their fire truck?

Thank you.

Christopher Bilbrey. I first want to say that I fully respect the council attorney, Brandon Murphy, and his research into this. And I honestly don't believe that this will cause the city lawsuits. That being said, I want to come at this from a kind of a different angle. First of all, I agree with some of the other commenters that I think that you thought it was odd that people keep asking the cost of this and say that it should be in the ordinance. And this is just the first reading. And I think that Muncie always gets this thing wrong. We always say, well, this is just the first reading. If we have as much information as possible together at the beginning when you guys file it and you guys can all see that information and the public can see that information, it can help inform our arguments because there might be some actual fiscal conservatives out here. None of you are, and the mayor's not, but there might be actual fiscal conservatives out here. What? Well, some of you might be, but the mayor's not. Anyways. And if they find out that it's $3,000 to do it, they might like it. Now, that $3,000 or $5,000, I don't believe that either. I will say this. That's just to do what we've got right now. If four of those cars go out and get in a pursuit after doing this and they crash and they break the trunk end of this or the sides or whatever they do, then that's going to be another cost that we're going to have to do when we re-letter it. So this is a reoccurring cost, and I've not heard anyone say that. When we buy new cars and the fleet retires out and we buy new fire trucks, it's a reoccurring cost. We're always going to do this. The other thing that's really strange to me is – I don't know why we're doing this at all. It's edit money. Why don't the mayor just do it and take it away from you guys because that's how he does most of the other things. I don't understand why we're wasting all his time with this. I don't like that he does that. I like that you guys are doing it this way, and I wish he wouldn't do it with edit money. I wish if we were going to do it, we were going to do it with an appropriation, and we could really argue that out. What I hate about this is if we convince you guys to vote accordingly to what your public wants and you do what the public wants, which is what you should do… then you would vote this down, and he'll probably still do it out of edit money without you guys' approval. So that's kind of crazy there. This being said, I want to approach this, and I want to be very clear. I am a – and I know that there are people here that don't believe this, and this is the problem between myself and a lot of you. I am an honest-to-God constitutional conservative, okay? I am a man of deep faith, of a Christian faith. I follow Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. And I walk and I follow and I believe in that daily. And I fall short of the glory of God every day as all of you do. But I am in that faith and I do walk that walk. That being said, I am also... 110% sure because of my research, my time, my involvement, this is an extremely well-documented opinion of mine, that the city of Muncie, all of you, everybody in the administration, please fire everybody, we screw things up a lot. The Muncie city government, Muncie's amazing. The government, not so much. Most of you leave a lot to be desired, okay? I just want to be very clear. I do not believe that the city of Muncie should be putting itself out there as a beacon for people to look for salvation. Because I will let you know, I do not look to the city of Muncie for my salvation. I look to my God for my salvation. And I don't believe he cares whether this phrase is on our cop cars or not. If you, sir, or the rest of you, ma'am, madam, want to drop the mustard seed and you want to do that, that's great. If you want to do it here, you want to do it there, you want to do it while you're there, you feel that's good, that's fantastic. But I challenge you to think what happens when, God forbid, and I'm saying this from your perspective, not necessarily mine. One of these days we have a mayor or council president that's a Muslim. And the next phrase that we put on the cop cars are, say, praise be to Allah. Or what happens when we have a Satanist that says, hail to Satan? Now, I wouldn't want that. I'm sure you wouldn't want that. What would we do then? What would you do then? What would you want the people in your seats to do then? I'm not preaching to you about God. I'm not anti-God. I'm as far into God as I can possibly be. But I don't know that the city of Muncie needs to be having this. We have much more serious conversations to be having like the budget. Thank you very much.

Elizabeth agile and I just wonder when you write these ordinances and you know we know that you're supposed to represent the districts that you're elected to serve and I'm not sure that some of you do but and we know that you're supposed to do that did you go around your district to jazz people what they wanted because I've heard from my group and from just, well, here today even, that they didn't want this. And do you just like write these up on your own or did a bunch of people come up and tell you? Because that's what you're supposed to be doing. You're not supposed to be up here playing politics because politics got you here, right? Then once you're on this body, you're supposed to serve the people you're elected to serve. But consistently, we have to come up here and tell you we want to do this. We don't want you to do that. And you guys, you Republicans, just go ahead and vote whatever way you want. It's serving you. It's not serving us. And I just thought that that's a breakdown somewhere. You could do better.

Hi, Steve Craig. I just want to clarify, since she can't come up here and speak twice, Willow wasn't asking who authored it. She's saying who asked you to. She spoke to the very men and women that are driving those vehicles. They didn't ask you to do it. They didn't even know about it. And I can tell you, his district didn't ask him about it. He's not been to me to do it in more than a year. So who asked is what she wanted to know.

I'm from up here to get booed, I guess.

Terry Moore, first of all, as a retired fireman, firemen usually don't have a say on what happens to our vehicles or anything else. That's not the way the city government works. The mayor appoints the chief. He tells the chief what to do, and firemen have to abide by it. As far as this ordinance, I don't care one way or another. I'm not an overly religious person. But I do have a C-note here, as in God we trust in it. Do any of you not want this or against this? I got a C-note here. It says, in God we trust.

and what else wishing to speak from the audience on ordinance 1826 okay mr mcintosh i guess i don't even have to really say it because people that know me and then obviously the audience have taken part in some of the prayers that i do because i do believe in god and i walk and try to follow Jesus Christ. My problem is, and it's gonna be my problem until we take care of my brothers and sisters, I hate this extra spending and my city workers are not getting paid. It's two years, two and a half years. 4% raise and they haven't seen it yet. So I'm just letting y'all know now, it's gonna be no, anytime you come with me for money, it's gonna be no.

I Would like to ask you president green and where did this come from was this from anyone specific was it from a certain group I Had some that approached me concerning this they would like to see this done as an act of Encouragement and all the things have been going on here recently I think we're all aware of things that have taken place in our country. Point of order. So that's where it came from.

Go ahead. Okay. So here's where I am thinking. So just to let you guys know, some of you might agree, some of you might not. I come from the Middle East, and I do, and I have lots of friends from different religions. Now, the only people that I think will be excluded from this group, from what I'm trying to say, are the agnostics who do not believe in God. But like my Muslim friends, it's not saying, I'm just letting you know how I'm thinking. So please don't judge me. I'm just being honest with you. So in Muslim, Allah means God. And we all believe, even the Muslims, we believe in one God. And just for the people who believe in God, there's one God. It's a reoccurring. So to me, just please listen. It's not saying Jesus Christ, it's saying God. So that's where I'm leaning. Now, the other thing is, if the cost is way too much, I'm going to have a An issue with that because if it's 3,000 I can and it's coming from at it. Yeah, but if it's going to be 50 and we don't have that much. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay, so as I was explaining so if I I'm if I'm probably going to vote yes for this with the what let me finish please vote. Yes. If the price is, if the numbers come high, I'm not going to be, we don't have that money to spend. So that's, I'm explaining myself.

Yes. It's a shame that I have to preface my comment with the fact that I am a Catholic school kid. I go to mass regularly. And, you know, so that's not the issue. It's not a religious or an anti-religious issue for me. My question is for the mayor. Mayor, can you come up and say on the record whether or not you support this or not? And then I have a follow-up, sir.

Dan Ridenour, Mayor of Muncie. I was not aware of this until it was filed. I asked questions about it, was told similar dollar amounts, and I said, if financing becomes an issue, I would spend, so I'm kind of, I would, yes, I am in favor of this. Absolutely.

Mayor, sorry, one follow-up then. You say you were in favor of it, you would pay for it. I mean, what type of money are you talking about? You're talking about $3,000. What if it comes back and it's $50,000?

Well, that's a different situation. But again, I asked, how much do you expect this to be? And that's what I was told. So I'm under the same thought process that everybody in this room is. We're expecting the $3,000 that you were told. I don't even know where that's coming from. But again, it has to go through the, well, I know where the money's coming from. I don't know who's doing that work. So somebody may have gave you that price. That was not something I was aware of. But yes, I am supportive of In God We Trust on the vehicles.

We've heard from Terry Moore that you are actually the one that determines what goes on the cars, what doesn't go on the cars. So my question is, is this an issue for council at all? If you're paying for it with your edit dollars and you decide what goes on the cars, why is this before council?

Because it was brought up by the council. This is the city council's meeting. This is not the mayor's meeting. This was brought up by the council. It was supported, brought up, thought up by the council. So it's not my position to, it's not my place to step in front of ordinances and resolutions that the city council wants to bring before the public. If it passes, it's very similar to the chicken ordinance. Had it gotten to me, I would have had to make a decision, but it never got to me. So this was brought up. I respect that a council member wanted to bring it forward, and it has brought up lots of dialogue.

Thank you. Mr. President, if you feel the council needs to weigh in on this issue,

No, this is not my ordinance. So it's not my ordinance. The council feels you asked me to weigh in on the position. I did. And I am supportive and would pay what I was told that it would cost. So this was not from me, but I am very much in favor of In God We Trust if that's what the council chooses to do. There are nine people who will vote, and if five pass it, six pass it, seven pass it, then I get to make a decision. And then you can say I'm weighing in. But I was sitting over there not weighing in. This was not mine, but I am in favor of it.

Well, and I think it's important that the public knows. But I also don't tell the police or the fire. I'm sorry, I was talking.

Okay, go ahead.

I think it's important that the public knows what our top elected official feels on this issue.

Which I've stated. He's already stated that. Which I've stated.

No, he was saying why he was sitting over there minding his business and that I asked him to weigh in. I was explaining why I asked him to weigh in.

And I appreciate that. And I will also answer one of your other questions is I do not tell the police or the fire what to put on any of their vehicles. So I can't speak for previous administrations, but I have never done that. Not once.

Let's have a vote on this please roll call up or down 1826 either we introduce or we don't We have a motion we have a second We've had discussion. We're going to roll call Yes.

Yes. No. No. No.

No. Yes.

Yes.

Rings ordinance 1926.

ORDERS 1926 AND ORDERS AMENDING ORDERS 1625, FIXING THE MAXIMUM SALARIES OF EACH AND EVERY APPOINTED OFFICER, EMPLOYEE, DEPUTY, ASSISTANT, DEPARTMENTAL, AND INSTITUTIONAL HEAD OF THE CITY OF MONCY, INDIANA, INCLUDED HEREIN FOR THE YEAR 2026.

I was approached by two departments that were that wished to do some restructuring within the departments one of them the animal shelter and the other one the building commissioner and That's what this particular

Amendment is doing Could you expound on what changes they want to make and what cost issues this would incur and and Give a little bit of history on as a matter of fact the department heads can do that themselves You're welcome

Would you guys mind if I speak first as the Director of Human Resources? I'll let the department heads, of course, speak to what they're doing within their specific departments. But I'd like, my name's Patty Goddard, Director of Human Resources, City of Muncie. I'd like to speak to the overall structure of a restructuring, just to educate you all a little bit. I also have handouts for, of course, the city clerk, as well as each member of the city council, if you'd like to have that. So, within Section 902 of the AFSCME Collective Bargaining Agreement, of which the City Council ratified, there is Section 902 which allows for a restructuring given notice. Also within Indiana Code 36473, it provides that the mayor, who is the executive authority, has the authority regarding compensation changes during the budget year. So a couple of these restructurings have already occurred with his authorization. Again, the department heads can speak to what they were. The one that has definitely occurred is the building commissioner. We actually restructured two positions. We took one position and restructured from secretary one to an administrative coordinator. It was not meeting the needs of the position. It needed to be a confidential position because of the workload that it was It went from a collective bargaining unit position to a non-collective bargaining unit position. However, in that same department, we took a non-collective bargaining unit position and moved it back into the collective bargaining unit. We moved from a building preservation foreman to a utility position. So it was sort of a trade-off, if you will, for the collective bargaining unit itself. I do have copies here, one for each of those positions, but I gave you the authority that we had to do that, both through the executive authority and the Indiana code to which I cited, as well as the fact that you all ratified section 902 of that collective bargaining agreement. That is highlighted within the memo that is there. I will stand by should you have any additional questions that the department heads will speak to their own specific situations there is a financial impact and The memos that I've provided you will show the financial impact on the building commissioners.

Thank you

Josh Talby, Director of Muncie Animal Care and Services. So my restructuring is essentially out of need. So about three months ago, my office manager moved, my rescue coordinator retired. Those are two positions, and what I'm essentially advocating for is a combining kind of... The two roles into a hybrid position with the ultimate goal of increasing the salary for my office manager, which we're going to rename office director. Also, what we're doing is saving about $18,000 in salaries with the combination. I'm also taking on some administrative aspects from the office manager position.

Yes. Okay.

Okay, so the rescue coordinator's job, and what was the other worker?

Office manager.

And what were office managers? What was the duties? Okay, so the rescue coordinator, I mean, I might not be very intelligent. Just give me a synopsis of what they do. What were the responsibilities, and how combining both of them? How could one person do both? So essentially how we get— And the hybrid part, right?

how we get any animals out is adoptions, rescues, or reclaims. So while it's a part-time position, my rescue coordinator, it paid essentially $1,700 a month with 5% of grants. But essentially, they work closely with rescues to get animals out, which is a huge portion of what we get out from the shelter. What I've essentially done is combined those two jobs. I've taken on quite a bit of the workload administratively to balance that. But, yeah, that's what my rescue coordinator does. Probably responsible for around 900 animals out a year.

Thank you.

Are you done? I'm sorry. Okay. How does the union feel about this? Are they supportive of this? Is this going to be an issue with the union?

I have not ran by the union. I have no idea.

Okay.

Sir, do you have a question?

No, I was just gonna say that and I was gonna say that you have a very strong advocate for this So you said you're gonna save $18,000 are you gonna put that money somewhere else and what are you gonna do with that?

We will find use of it at the shelter between the building, animals. We will find something. What we are also doing is slightly increasing that office manager role to compensate for the additional duties of the rescue coordinator.

Thank you. Any other questions?

Thank you.

I think Patty already pretty much used my department as an example, but do you have any other questions?

Richard Rawlings.

Sorry. Any questions for council?

Just the same question regarding how does the union feel about this? Are they supportive of these changes?

I have no idea.

Okay.

they can't get through behind the gentleman behind you they'd like to speak

Nate Burgess, president of AFSCME, when they wanted to do this in the building commissioner's office, I opposed it. And this is the very first time I've heard about the shelter, to answer your question. We need to quit taking union positions and making more bosses. We need boots on the ground, not pencil pushers. We need help. That's just it. We need help.

Any other questions or comments?

Audie Barber, I'm a union member, local 103 operators union. The more people you take out of the union, the less stronger the union gets. You're taking these union people, and there's several union... Excuse me, go ahead. You got the floor. Go ahead and talk to him right now.

No, you're good. Go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's go ahead. You've been talking the whole time when it wasn't your turn, so go right ahead.

One more.

Yeah, point of orders. All right. So when they're doing that, you need to call point of order. What I was saying was, you're taking more away from the ask me. When this mayor came into office, his main objective was to do away with the unions. There's a lot of you folks up there that were union strong. One, two, three, four, five of you maybe? Four or five of you? Yeah, you too, Mr. Basham. I don't think you need to restructure it. Put the people back in place. If somebody's retired, hire somebody new for that position. If you got two people out, put two people back in that position. Don't take it away from the AFSCME people. They've worked hard at what they get, and they still ain't got what they deserve. And you guys continue to allow that to happen by reconstructing these budgets and stuff and doing with these jobs that are no longer union jobs. Don't break the union, guys. These guys work their tails off out there. I would just like every one of you guys to go do one week of work of what they do. And then come back and tell me it's okay that we're just skipping over them. We have to use the green clause to go back to last year's contract and keep going back and going back because you guys cannot stop the mayor from giving him a new contract. You won't let him give him a new contract. The only way you're going to do that is stop his spending. And I've said that for three or four years now. If you stop his spending now and tell him to make it right with these folks instead of taking their jobs away from them, we'd be better off. Thank you.

Mr. Barton, I was blessed enough to the summer of my eighth grade year. I was in middle school I was hired it probably looking back wasn't even legal but I was I was hired and other Well, politicians' kids, to be quite honest. There were six of us girls, teenage girls, and I put in 40 hours a week at the street department. We clocked in at 7 a.m., and we clocked out at 3 a.m., And I was an athlete and I did my practices afterwards and I was exhausted and my parents liked it that way. I stayed out of trouble for the most part. But while we're on the topic of the street department, I'd like to say that, first of all, Corey, it's a Republican council issue. they will undo the union i mean it's a republican state the unions have come undone and they sit there and they listen and they don't care obviously or they you guys would not have passed that ordinance you don't care so own it okay but this city and mayor i'm talking to you the conditions of this city compared to when i worked I can't talk to the mayor? Okay. Okay.

The conditions of the city are deplorable. I have never seen weeds and trash the way I have seen it in the last four years.

actually eight years or so the roads so you guys have no idea what street department workers do and city employees but there aren't enough of them obviously and if there are somebody's not tending to the trash and the weeds the way they should be because they're probably too busy paving roads and making temporary um mcgallier temporary folks First of all, I hope you know Muncie is going to be the laughing stock again when it gets out and it'll be on the Indianapolis news stations about this ordinance. Okay. In addition, wake up because our roads are a laughing stock and

Republicans undo unions.

Dale, you know that. Roe, you know that. And you're part of it. So, it's all happening as we know it will. Don't be disappointed, Audie. You act surprised. Don't tell them anymore that we need more workers. Don't tell them anymore. Vote them out.

This does nothing.

Mr. President, I haven't had a chance to speak on this. Remind me again, aren't we voting on a salary ordinance?

Isn't that what we're...

That's what we're voting to introduce. Is that correct?

That is correct.

I just wanted to make sure you remembered because I thought that's where we were. But thank you. Yes, sir.

Yes, sir. Point of order.

I've never, I've not been here 11 years. This is ridiculous.

and I understand that this is a salary ordinance but I am I was not really clear on what mrs. Goddard was saying are we losing union positions and I know it's a salary ordinance but that that is important to me like are we losing salaried union positions I've got a follow-up to on that if if we do pass this how many do we lose

With this ordinance.

One's too many.

One's too many. Well, do we have a number? One's too many.

Can we ask her to come back and answer this question, please? Please come up and answer this question.

We have absolutely lost zero positions. There have been no positions. There was some insinuation of retirements. There have been no retirements. There have been no positions lost. I'm not sure where that impression came from. The headcount has remained the same. Okay?

In the union? No.

No, you didn't ask that question. You asked if we'd lost any positions. I did. I misheard you. I apologize. That's fine. There was a lot of yelling going on, which I think is inappropriate, frankly. But any other questions?

Can you answer that question first, then?

So I've just become aware of the animal control. We've not put the union on notice per Section 902, as Nate alluded to. We did put them on notice for the building commissioner in April, and that was a one-for-one exchange. So, no, they did not lose any positions, as explained in the memos I provided you.

So the union does not know anything. You put them on notice about the building commissioner. That is correct. You did not put them on notice about the animal shelter, correct?

That is correct. That is something yet to happen. Unfortunately, that has not happened yet. We're putting the salary ordinance first, which is probably the way it should have happened for the building commissioners.

Yeah, I think this is for the director again. May I?

Yes.

Mr. Tommy.

May I sit down now? Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Don't go too far. Okay, I'll be honest with you.

I know you're only saving $18,000, and it's something to say kudos to, but... The animal shelter and the welfare of the animals are always championed for. We've always had, not before you even, struggled with making sure that our animals and the shelter's needs are met. We have overcrowdedness, correct? You're gonna come talk to us about it and how much money you need. And I am really not comfortable with you combining, you know, thinking about the amount of work that you guys do, the overload. I am convinced me to think that this is a good idea and that welfare of the animals are not going to deteriorate.

Sure, so what we've done essentially is I've taken quite a bit of the workload off of the office manager. So I'm essentially doing everything administrative through the shelter to allow that workload to be manageable. Aubrey has been doing a fantastic job, but that job, So my office manager, that job was created for my previous one. She was there for 12 years. And actually, I believe two directors ago, the rescue coordinator was brought in as a part-time. She was a retiree then. So her hours weren't even, I would say, more roughly, she could work remote. She could come in. It's really a job you can kind of do most places. But what I've essentially done is take all the administrative off of the office manager, whether it be bills, payroll, any of that stuff, and given that rescue coordinating role to make it more manageable. And she's done a fantastic job so far for the last three months.

So what happens when you're not – may I ask another question? No, I'm done. Someone else has. Sorry. I've got to follow the rules.

Anyone else? Sarah, yes.

So would this get rid of a union position?

Not to my understanding, no.

Any other questions from council? Okay, roll call for introduction then. You have another one back? Oh, yes. I'm sorry, Corey.

Thank you, guys.

Thank you.

Sorry. Sorry. Courtney Walker from Ask Me. I'm so nervous. I just wanted to clarify that technically this is not taking away a union position, but the union positions are not being filled by doing this. This is creating another non-union position instead of making sure that our administrators are doing payroll, things like that.

Would it be possible, because they've said that they have not notified the union of things, would it be possible, I'm making a motion that we table ordinance 19-26 until we have more information about the positions and their effect on the union, the union's response to the city's notification, just so we can have more information. I understand it's a salary ordinance, but so yes, I made a motion to table 19-26.

Yes Yes Yes Yes

Thank you, council.

Thanks to you.

Ordinance 20-26. Ordinance 20-26, an ordinance for appropriation in tax breaks proposed 2027 Muncie-Indiana Transit System budget.

A motion to introduce. Questions from council discussion Okay, I just wanted I said that to the director earlier I really appreciate and wish I

more committees or more, we get more information. They do a great job sending all their budget and their monthly minutes to us without being asked. They're consistent. Right after the council meeting, the next day you have all that information, everything in detail. So I want to thank you again publicly for doing that. It makes our job easier. Thank you so much. And we are current on what's going on, so thank you.

Sure.

my question is how much um did your 2027 budget increase over your 2026 budget and did you increase your levy those two that those two questions

Amanda Price general manager we increase our budget each year according to the maximum levy growth quotient which has traditionally always been 4% but it was 6% so our budget increased from 4% from 25 to 26 and this is a 6% increase for 27 so But that's just according to, I have the memorandum here from the state of Indiana. Yes.

So what you've increased, and I know there's needs. That's not what I'm asking. But you've increased this to the 6% because that's what you're allowed to do?

Well. That is what we have done and we have been, we followed what we can. And then for the past several years since I took over, I had a building that has exceeded its useful life in terms of years. So we have focused on making repairs to the building, a new roof, new lifts. I still need a bus wash. And because we did that, we didn't have the money to also do vehicles. So my average fleet is... excess of I'm thinking like 12 years old useful life on a large fixed route bus is 12 to 15 years the majority of our fleet has reached that that's so I have two on order right now we have three that we have ordered next year those are seven hundred twenty one thousand dollars apiece so when the buses cost that much and that, and you will see, um, well, you might not be able to see it easily, but, um, the capital portion of my budget was a 6% increase. And that's because I have to have my local share for those projects. So really it was kind of like, I didn't know where I was gonna come up with the money to get these buses we've ordered. And then that happened and we're like, oh my God, we've never seen that before, but this is great for us to be able to get those vehicles. Thank you.

Could you please explain to the public also how MITS is responsible for transportation for students that how the students must community schools use those buses to go to school every day could you tell us the numbers and and that's why you need safer and better buses too it was in the early 2000s before I actually started with MITS that we noticed or have noticed that there's duplication of a lot of the yellow school bus routes within town and our

regular routes we can't do anything outside of a considered a de minimis area but if we're talking a block or two then we can detour that bus and go in and provide service and well at that time as I think it's continued Muncie Community Schools had an issue with you know money we can accept payment for it we don't accept payment for it that's just something that we were able to pick up and assist the community with it went well and I believe it was 2007 or 8 we also started doing the junior highs so we carry all of the junior high and high school students we cannot carry the elementary students to school because stop-arm regulations but we can transport them to after-school activities like precious hearts moms Boys and Girls Club and we do that so yeah We also assisted with the flooding. We helped move people during that. They reached out to us, nursing homes, other things. And I would also like to mention that we might have had a 6% increase in the levy and that portion of it, but we've tried to be frugal with our money in anticipation of money's going down. We got $3.3 million from the federal government in 2025. We got $2.8 million from the federal government in 2026. Who's to say what we will get in 2027? So we try to be good stewards of the money, try to make sure that we give raises to all of our staff, but As you guys know, that's difficult to do. Thank you. Thank you so much. Any other questions?

Are you guys locked in on a fuel thing?

We do purchase on the futures market, yes.

And so that enables us to… How much is this high-priced fuel affecting you guys?

It doesn't, we don't pay anywhere near what you guys, what is paid at the pumps.

But you're locked into a certain...

Yes, and it's considerably lower. By purchasing on the futures market, we're always over six months out. So our diesel is... Less than what a lot of people pay for gas right now.

It's almost $6.50 a gallon now.

Yeah, no, we don't pay that. We couldn't afford to run the amount of service we do if we had to pay that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Any questions from the council? Roll call, please.

Mr. Garrett?

Yeah.

Mr. Dishman?

Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes, yes Moving on to ordinance 2126

Ordinance 21-26 an owner's ordinance of appropriations and tax rates proposed 2027 month Sanitary district budget Motion for introduction second time the second Discussion from the audience

Again, Rick Ganser, newsman. It came to my attention last week that county government put in local money, about $100,000 to map and do some small projects after the historic flood. Now, I know the sanitary district, who you got a member back there, I think he's a Republican Party chairman, sits on the sanitary board. They've talked about what they're going to do, but I haven't seen any money put out. And I would remind this government that The mayor, the mayor of Anderson, Tom Broderick, kicked in over half a million for local disaster relief. I haven't seen a dime out of this government do anything outside of what they're supposed to do, a cleanup and try to do recovery. But I think the district that's got a lot of money, they just raised their utility rates a couple years ago. and they don't seem to listen or even uh read about where the federal government doesn't give a damn about air or water anymore matter of fact today the epa got rid of emission standards for coal plants so maybe they should rethink about what they're doing and get some more work done on some of these creeks that's flooded and some of these neighborhoods that don't have any drains thank you

Audie Barber, hey, I pay a lot of sewage bill. I pay a big bill each month. My bill's almost doubled since January. I think if you guys go back and look at your own bills, you'll notice that they've doubled. So be cautious when you give these folks more money because guess what? Your sewage bill may double again. And that's just since January. Thank you.

Anyone else with questions, comments?

Hi, Dena Cox, financial manager for the Muncie Sanitary District. This is just for the proposed for the Muncie Sanitation Department. This has nothing to do with your sewage bill. So this is just strictly for trash services, sanitation. Do you have any questions for me?

Again just how much did your 2027 budget increase over your 2026 4% and was that Is that due to raises is it due to you I mean what what necessitated that increase it is due to raises and it's due to disposal fees Disposal fees went up for us Thank you

So best way is where we just take our disposal and they're the ones that raised our rates.

You're saying that you don't do anything with the drainage as far as water and rain?

Not the sanitation department.

I just need to know who to deal with on that one because Park and Gavin is flooded every time it rains and it just floods my yard. They put the drain on one side of the street and they should have put it on the other. So I need to find somebody out there.

You can contact our engineering department. Okay. But they're on a separate. Separate. Yeah.

With the increase in the disposal going up, what is that? Do we expect that goes up next year? I mean, is that an occurring thing with best way or is that kind of, you know what I mean? Like, is it just a, when's the last time I'd say that the, that they've raised their rates with Bestway?

I believe the contract ended, it was a three-year contract, and it ended this month.

And do we have another three-year contract with them? That I'm not for sure. Okay, thank you.

Yeah, I'd have to ask that.

Thank you.

Any other questions from council? Roll call, please. I thought we motioned and we seconded.

I so move. I'll second that.

Yes, yes Yes, yes Or that's 22

I have a motion to introduce.

So moved. Second. I'll second that. Mr. Basham. Yes. Mayor, or would anyone like to come and speak?

I will address the upcoming meetings of the Finance Committee. As you know, the President has identified the City Council Standing Committees early in the year. That finance committee consists of Councilman Jerry Dishman, Councilman William McIntosh, and I am the chair. So we will meet once we... address the motion and the second we will meet on Tuesday September 22nd Thursday September 24th and Wednesday September the 30th in the auditorium here at 6 p.m. for each session the Finance Committee as I've already indicated will be three members And these meetings are an opportunity for the Finance Committee to ask questions of department heads concerning their budgets, their department's budget. Should any member of the council, not on the committee, wish to submit questions to be asked of the particular department heads, those questions should be emailed to the three council members ahead of the three council members who are on the committee ahead of those three meetings. And again, there will be no public comment at the committee meetings, but there will be second opportunity for public comment at the time the budget is up for adoption by this council so we can go ahead and yes us a Tuesday September the 22nd Thursday September the 24th and Wednesday September the 30th here in the auditorium 6 p.m.

I just had a follow-up question of you or Mr. Basham if another member of council that is not on the Finance Committee has a question that they were not able to submit but came up organically as we attended can we ask that question either can we ask it before introduction is there no opportunity I mean

I guess that's I guess my question is when can we ask questions we will have we will have of the department chair of the department heads of the department heads will be in those three meetings and if you'd like to submit questions to them ahead of time that would be appropriate as has been established already this year in a city in committee meetings. So that would be the opportunity. They will also be available during the adoption date here in the city council.

so point of clarification so we can ask questions prior to or the night it's introduced if I if I have a question that I come at organically because of what you're discussing I don't have an opportunity to ask that question prior to adoption may I continue to speak okay if you if you'd like to submit that question to any three members of the council that would be appropriate

I think what she's saying is during that meeting you're saying we can text you then during the meeting and saying hey ask this one sure

Ready yes, we're right Matt Wagley. Yeah city controller The goal Was that we were going to add 5% of the salaries and keep the other line items The same And then like a week before that was supposed to be submitted of course Craig Wright passed away so I Didn't have a whole lot of opportunity to proofread it because I was going back and forth with the state for them to give me the credentials To be able to submit the budget because if the budget wouldn't have gotten submitted we'd have lost literally millions of dollars in revenue so I'm sure there will be some questions on the budget Craig did some of it. I did some of it. My main concern was to get it filed and I did Do the they allowed the maximum growth quotient for the city was 6% That's what I went with Because it's not really that you're going to be making any that you're going to be collecting any more or less money It's just that When budgeting, you have the levy. If you don't maximize the levy, you're not able to collect all the money, and council's not able to appropriate all the money that the state says that you are entitled to ask for in their maximum budget. growth quotient. And the maximum growth quotient is tied to the assessed value. Personally, I think over the last five years, it's lagged behind. I think we've grown faster than that, but it is what it is. DLGF gives us the numbers. There are also some numbers that I didn't necessarily agree with with DLGF. on the income for COET. So we're going to have to make some, I had to make some adjustments on the fly to that just to get the budget submitted. And I also had a real issue with the park bond. I kept adjusting it the way it said it was supposed to be adjusted. It didn't seem to be working. I was supposed to have, and actually I was supposed to have a teleconference with Judy at DLGF on the day that it was due, but for whatever reason, when I did the reservation for a conference with her, apparently it didn't go through because her time was filled that day, so I was on my own to figure out how to get this budget to go because if it's not a certain way, the system will not allow you to submit it. So with that being said, this is the 2027 budget that I submitted to council for consideration. And like I said, I'm sure there will be some questions as far as the budget, because like I said, usually Craig has time to go through my numbers. I have time to go through Craig's numbers, and we usually do that the last week before it's due. And, you know, that didn't happen this year. So here we are. And I meant to go, I would have loved to have gone through this this morning, but our payroll clerk is on vacation, so I'm covering for payroll this week.

Okay.

And I know that you're doing a lot with Craig's absence, him not being here. And I'm sure I personally am going to give you and show you lots of grace. And if I have a question, I'm not going to be accusing. I will ask for clarification. You did very well. And to take some pressure off of you, I will be emailing you with questions, and I appreciate you emailing me the answers. Yeah.

I know you're going through a lot. The more questions I have ahead of time that I can look into, the better, because then I can respond to it, hopefully, at the meeting. But I mean, obviously, things come up during the course of discussion.

I wanted to thank you because the budget came to us in total prior to and it's one of the first times it's happened that way and I appreciate that we were able to get it all at the same time in order so that's a kudo for you I was also gonna ask request that any council members that email the controller include all the council members that way we all have that information And then my last question was, as far as, and the question I originally had thought of, was when you calculated the 5% or did the department heads for our AFSCME employees, did you calculate it based on the line item? Because they we budgeted for a 4% raise this year Which they did have not received and I just want to make sure that we they don't They don't lose out on that money already being there when we calculate their 5% raise It's been appropriated, but it was appropriated for this year.

It's not appropriated for next year So you would have to do additional appropriations in order to pay for it in the next calendar year but I Right I just want to say this, and I may get in trouble for it, but when we go into negotiations, we all sign a confidentiality agreement. The administration has abided by that agreement. Other people have not. And at least if I was not going to abide by the confidentiality agreement, at least I would give you accurate information.

Thank you.

So you mentioned the park because I did see that that went up so so the park bond you mentioned that so we can Assume that that's going to be fixed because I can actually get into it now, but it is yeah I noticed it was a huge

Yeah, there's been a question about it the last couple years, and I think it's an administrative fee that's supposed to be on the first payment, but it was previously not put into the budget, so of course the money was not appropriated. I can nail down exactly what it needs to be, and I can get with Judy to figure out exactly what the budget needs to look like, and I can give that to you, and if you so choose to use that to amend it, That would be great. So the, okay. Yeah, I can nail that down for you. Like I said, the park bond, well, there were a lot of departments that were an issue and I kept fixing them, but park bond I couldn't get. And finally it went through. So I knew that it was going to look funny, but I had to get the budget submitted.

Sure, okay.

Because if this budget isn't passed, then you would revert to the 2026 budget and the 2026 max levy, which is 6% less than it should be for next year. And you would... The tax cap, I'm not sure if they would use the projected tax cap, which was $28 million, or whether they would use the actual tax cap, which was substantially less than that, which if you'll remember last year, I said that that tax cap was not right. So it had to be submitted, and we can work together to adjust it.

Mr. President, may I? And you have agreed to be present at all three of the Finance Committee meetings.

Yeah, and any of the department heads that have questions, I'm available. And then, of course, any of you folks have any questions, I'm available. Because I've got a steep learning curve here. But that's fine. Thank you. I do think this highlights the need to have a deputy controller. Because it's not only, I mean, hopefully this doesn't happen again, but at the change of an administration, the whole idea was the deputy controller was not appointed, it was a hired position so that they could stretch into the new administration, at least show them what needs to be done. But anyway, that's just a side note on my part.

Thank you very much. Are there others wishing to speak on ordinance? 22 dash 26.

I have a question on this committee the finance committee is only 3 people which is Mister bashing Mister McIntosh and who else Mister Dishman Mister Dishman so that's 2 Republicans and one Democrat. Map is not mapping to me why does it not why is it not everyone.

I asked that earlier.

Why did he get changed? I mean, that's because to me that's putting him at fighting two people. He's going to lose every time. I'm not understanding that. It should be everybody. And I got a question for you, Dishman. What is your district one, right? What is your district? 5, OK. I know what yours is, I know what yours is, but to me that doesn't make sense that we have only 3 people, 2 Republicans and 1 Democrat at least make it even. I just don't understand that.

Yeah.

Daisy Dale again. I was just curious. Human Rights doesn't have an executive director right now. So for presenting on the department, should it be one of our office holders? Should it be our president? Who should be here for that meeting?

I'll be happy to answer that. I would have your president.

Okay. I think that would be appropriate. Gotcha. Also, so currently with this – Are you president? I am not, no. Okay. I'm not claiming to be. Just to clarify that. No, no, no. I'm one of nine commissioners, occasional private citizen. Yeah. What else was I going to ask? Yes, I just want to make sure, too. I mean, it's like I sent the whole thing about the budget. So we voted on it. It was not it was not submitted. I was curious if I mean, would that be like a thing that'd be like this ordinance would be amended or would it be a resolution? How would that how that work?

Well. the mayor pres the administrator presents the budget and then the council will review the budget along with the department heads or the president if a department is not available and then um the council can only reduce line items we cannot add to so that that That's a key.

Yeah. I just want to make sure that the, what we voted on for it, just that that would be for it to be presented to council with it would have to be, I'm like amending the ordinance or like, I mean.

The appropriate time for amendments would be at the point of adoption, which would be, I think at the next meeting.

Yeah. I guess like, I guess what I'm asking is like, will it be considered like the one that we voted on the, like, like our commission voted on basically.

Matt. Would you join this conversation?

No, it won't because the president of the board contacted me a couple days after the budget was submitted with their budget. they understood that it was late so my response to her was you know if things can be done within their budget we can adjust those things and if there are anything if additional appropriations are required it would have to be done as an ordinance after the beginning of the year does that clarify

Christopher Bilbrey. I really tried this meeting to come in and not detest most of you, but the problem is most of you are detestable. That's the problem. I'm glad that you guys showed the public that you don't care about transparency. You don't care about doing the right thing. There's legitimately no – No common sense reason to switch how the budget's been handled for the last several years other than a partisan issue. That's the long and short of it. It's just to make sure that there's no disruption or not – it's just – it's asinine. It's like every – Every time for the most minor things that just make the most basic common sense, we're coming in here and beating our heads against the wall time after time after time after time. And you guys are doing the same thing because it's just – you're playing politics, and we're just asking for common sense. But you guys refuse to do it. You refuse to do it. And I mean – I've said it before. I'll say it again. I hope that the majority of you don't go home. There's a couple of you that I hope you do. You really do a good job, but there's a lot of you that I really hope that you don't go home, pat yourselves on the back thinking you've done a good job. You've served the public. You've done your duty. You've done what you said you would do when you ran for office because you don't do that. 12 times a month 12 times a year once a month very short period most of you can't figure out an email most of you won't answer your phone or do all those things and it's it's just ridiculous and in considering the most important one of the most important things that's your role You know, I know I'm just a bad guy. I'm the evil villain. I'm Satan. I'm the devil. Okay? I get it. I get it. I'm talking about this. You'll be fine. I can yell at you from back here. Throw that dude out or whatever. Okay? He's the one that yelled out. He doesn't get a yell point of order. Right? You're the guy that has the big gavel. Okay? Okay? So we're talking about the budget, and I'm talking about your role as counselors in dealing with the budget. So I am on point. It's frustrating, and you guys might not like to hear it, and they might not like to hear it, but you deserve to hear it. When you get that puppy and it keeps peeing in the floor, you keep whipping it and rubbing its face in it until it does the right thing. That's what I'm doing. I just – it's frustrating. It's like you guys are aliens. You don't understand English. Is there a reason? Can anybody give a specific reason why all nine of you wouldn't want to do it? Why all nine of you aren't doing it? Why you changed it? What's the – You know, I'll stick here after the meeting if you want to come down and explain it to me then. I'll record you doing it. But if you want to do it that way, we can do it that way. If you don't want to say it now, I'm just trying to figure out why is it so hard? Shut me up for once. Do the right thing. I just don't understand it. I really don't understand it. I want to end by saying that the emails that you guys get or the emails that you're passing back and forth during this time Instead of having to request them or whatnot, I wish you would make them available to the public. Maybe that's something that if you guys get emails or you guys emails back and forth, you could send them to one person, the president or the chair of the council could have that responsibility of printing, if he knows how to, printing them all off if he doesn't pass it on to somebody else and print them off and have them here for the public to see if they so choose. This is a big deal. This is the most important aspect of your duty. And what's funny is – no, it's not funny. It's sad. I don't get along a lot with the new controller, but I respect the position he's in, and I feel bad for him. And what's really crazy is you sit up here and heard what he's talking about, how rough it's been and what's happening, and you guys decided to make this asinine choice at this point. Like maybe okay, do it next year, but it should be all hands on deck. We should want what's best for the city, not what's best for the little R behind our names.

Body Barber again. Have we went back through the minutes and made sure that that wasn't an ordinance or a resolution that was introduced? You don't think it was? I think it was, wasn't it?

No, it wasn't?

Okay. I was just checking. I couldn't remember. There's a lot that goes on up here, and it's been about five or six years ago, but I'd like to see one of you guys make the motion that all nine members be part of the budget committee and maybe overrule the president on it.

Elizabeth, I'm just going to say what nobody else will say. The reason that you're doing the three people is to keep Nora out of it because Nora held the mayor to task last year. And that's why you're doing it. It's totally partisan. And it's just disappointing. It's disappointing and it's gross. And if I were you, I'd be embarrassed.

Any other questions from council?

I just want to get points. Yeah, we can't. This is why I think that Councilman McIntosh made the statement that he did to try to make a request. We can't. It is up to the president, but it's not too late for him to change that either. He can change that at any time.

I would like to ask the chair if the public has questions because those budgets are online if they have questions can they email those questions to a member of the committee well three the three committees yeah I just want to give that opportunity that if the public has questions after reviewing the budget you can also email them to one to miss councilman McIntosh chairman Basham or Mr. Dishman and Those will be addressed. I'm hoping May I refer this question to council?

You heard the question. Is this process for – will the public have two opportunities tonight and then that other date in October, adoption? That's where we will allow public comment. Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct.

Okay.

okay so we'll have we'll have questions from the counselors during the three meet for the uh ahead of the three meetings and then public questions at the adoption so if someone in my district has a question they can email me yeah and i will pass it on to you so the public can email their council persons and we will pass them on so that you will have your questions answered

the questions that are being emailed before the meetings if possible could we have them like in packet form to pick up so that everyone at the meeting will know what what was emailed and kind of on the record of the questions that are being asked in the meeting I don't know that I can promise that okay

It should go to city clerk. Okay. Is that something that they could email to you and you would have?

Okay, if we provide it to you, okay, all right.

Point of clarification is that chairman Basham has already said and the council's agreed that all questions will go to all council members so if I have a question and I'm messaging I'm emailing you or if I'm emailing a department head my questions will go to all nine members and then hopefully their responses will go to all nine members so and if we clue in Lacey on that email then there you go yeah thank you thank you make a hard copy of that

okay okay thank you thank you any other questions from council please use

Thank you.

President Green, just so we're clear on emails including all nine members of council, that cannot be sent from any one of you, okay, for purposes of the open meetings law. Okay. So if it's a member of the public that sends an email to all nine of you, that is fine, but no reply from any member of the council can go to all nine members of the council.

No member of the council can send an email with four members of the council or more

Does that make sense? Yeah.

Yes.

May I? Sure. So.

You have a question. Yeah.

But if we're asking it of a department head, we can copy each other and they can respond to that as long as we don't respond?

I don't believe you should send an email that includes. To do it just in case.

Just to be safe. Okay.

Any other questions?

roll call then yes yes yes yes yes

Resolution directing an investigation in the professional services contract and subsequent agenda between the city of Muncie and George Jeffrey Howe and the administration's compliance with the applicable approval process.

We have a motion to adopt?

Yes.

Did you get that? In a second. Discussion. Discussion from the audience.

I'll make it short. Christopher Bilbrey. So I'm the one that did as much as I could to push this forward. It makes sense to do it. You know, like I've been saying here recently, again, if you do this and you do it with fervor and you do it right and everything's above board, well, you've made me look like an idiot, and that would be the best thing you guys could do. But if you do it and something's wrong and things have been wrong, well, then you've righted a wrong, and that would be the best thing to do. Um, it's really a no lose situation unless it's, uh, a partisan thing again, and it probably will be, and it'll probably be voted down. And so, I don't know, hell with it. Do what you want to do.

You always do.

Anyone else in the audience? Comment? Questions from council?

I just kind of want to read, if you don't mind, the basics of what this is so that the public knows what we're talking about. If that's all right. And I'm just going to read what we're actually going to be voting on the resolve. We won't start in all the whereases. But basically what this says is that we would like to do an investigation. And again, when we say investigation for a city council, this is not talking about any kind of criminal investigation or anything. This is literally just us asking questions, trying to get to the bottom of something. So it has nothing to do with civil law or criminal law. So this asks that we are looking into Jeff Howe's different contracts with the city we hereby direct the if this is voted in we would direct that an investigation be conducted into the circumstances surrounding the execution of his original contract his first addendum and the second addendum between the city of Muncie and George how I'm sorry Jeff how including whether each was required to be and was in fact presented to the Board of Works for discussion public input and a vote and whether the first addendum of the contract and the second addendum violated the terms of the original contract, including the prohibition on extending Mr. Howell's term without a new contract, his compensation paid to him under the original contract in each subsequent addendum, whether that was properly authorized and the timing and circumstances of the second addendum relative to his appointment as deputy mayor and designation as acting mayor and then whether the july board of works meeting complied with notice recording and public access requirements of the indiana open door law and then any other matters that would be warrant review around that

Okay, I'm just gonna be very practical here. I'm sad about Craig Wright. Now, can we look at each other and see why it's important to have a deputy controller? Now wait, I'm talking. And then, this is the reason, and we are the council, Who took away the deputy mayor and this is where we are now who did what this was the you know, I mean This has nothing to do with the deputy mayor.

This has nothing to do with right.

This is about contracts that mr Howland yes, I understand that but my point was that if we had a Deputy mayor we wouldn't be discussing Any other council question

I'm looking through and may I ask a question of the sponsoring council person council person going did you provide parameters in regards to how many people would comprise of this committee yeah we left it open it's for the entire council all nine of us yes

because I think it's important for it to get all nine yes absolutely thank you no no yes

Yes. Yes.

No. Resolution 1426.

Resolution 1426, a memorial resolution in honor and remembrance of Craig Wright, city controller for the city of Muncie, Indiana. So moved.

I'll second that.

In the discussion, anything from the audience? Anything from council?

I'll speak on Craig. Totally off politics or whatever, but every time I'd see Craig. Craig was a true baseball fan. He was a true die-hard, die-hard Orioles fan, which they are very far and in between. But he would always read the box scores, and I grew up reading the box scores. It's kind of the thing that just went away. And as baseball changes and the rule changes, you walk in and Craig would always have something to say about the Cubs and he got me to look into the orals and every conversation we would start off with with baseball and I went to his calling hours after I got off work and in his casket was a orals hat so just from a true diehard Cubs fan to a true orals fan those conversations were nice Craig I think Craig would come up sometimes and we'd have back and forth with everybody up here. But Craig always, I can speak for me, I don't know about anybody else, but up here, but Craig was off the podium, Craig was always a good person. Craig was always polite. I always say it starts at home. I didn't know Craig's mom and dad, but I met his sister at his calling hours, and I would say that his mom and dad did a phenomenal job of raising him and his sister and his brother. I will always miss those conversations, and from now on, I still look for the orals and the box scores, so I just Beyond politics and all that, because we're not going to be up here forever. People want us down. People want us up. I just want to let everybody know that Craig was a good person. I think he had a good heart. And he was a diehard baseball fan that I will always remember those conversations that we had about baseball. Nothing politics, but about baseball. So I hope he rests in peace.

will always remember Craig for the smile that he had on he was always kind he had no matter how much pressure was put on him he never said anything ill about anybody and we all know he was under a lot of pressure lately so to me that is saddening it makes me sad of his passing it's a big loss for the city and I can I had a question he had answers. He was an honest man. He was a good man. He was friendly and cared for everybody so I want to remember Him as that and I would like the public to remember him as that as well Any other comments from council?

were you coming up mr. mayor yes yes yes I think it's present Any other business

Mr. Barton. Public comment. Oh, I'm sorry.

Yes. Okay. We're doing it in order. Doing it in order. I apologize. She'll call your name up. I'm sorry. Yep.

Sorry.

I apologize. Oh, you're fine. I apologize.

Remind the public to limit comments three minutes, please. And the council will be listening to take your concerns. Know that like to remind you on public comment to your comments for three minutes And that the council will be listening and taking notes concerning your concerns. Thank you

Again, Rick Yenzer, newsman, and I'd like to remind the government I have the absolute right under the Constitution to stand here and speak and redress government, besides speak at any government meeting because it's the public's right under the Constitution of the United States. What I'm concerned about when we talked about the budget, we didn't say anything about drones or flocks. The city's spending a bunch of money on surveillance to watch us. And here, I just saw from one of our people tonight, there was a shooting down at Jeans. Somebody was shot. There's two murder trials starting this week. over the last couple of years. Two people have been murdered a month ago. Now, how has technology stopped that? We still have the same murders in this town. We still have the same crime. And some of the other people on our social media indicate, after they took FBI statistics, that crime's going up in this community. So I think twice about how you're handling public safety. Because again, it's not working.

Thank you. Mr. Bilbrey.

You can't hear back there?

Oh, okay.

So I just want to make sure the mic is on. Sorry.

Testing.

I appreciate the council attorney's reading of the new situation with the council etiquette or decorum or whatever you want to call it. I agree with pretty much everything that was said. I still don't like the fact that Council President Green is trying to tell you guys that you can't address citizens concerns during this portion that's completely inaccurate he runs these meetings but he doesn't run you guys as specific individual elected counselors you guys are should be fully capable of addressing citizens during this portion or any other time if you so choose whether he likes it or not you don't work for him you work for the citizens um That's that point. Hey, you voted down the look-see into whether or not they did anything wrong with all those contracts. Boy, you guys are killing it tonight and every other time. And really, the two that's really strange when they do it never wants to look at me. These guys do, but Brandon doesn't. Jerry's always looking back here. Very strange. I'll look at you. Well, what the hell are you doing, brother? Don't do that. Don't do that. Do not do that. I sent you an email and I put you on notice. Your name is not Claudette King or Pauline Bilbrey. You do not police my language. Do you understand? Explain to me that you understand before it gets really crazy. I start saying shit or damn you better change your tone you better change what you think you can't you don't have point of order during my public comment go screw yourself I told you brother and you will not win this You will not win. Roe, he won't win. Counsel him. Counsel? Counsel him. All you've got to do is sit there and be silent like you are every other time everybody talks to you. That's all you've got to do for three minutes. You generally are silent. Just sit there and be quiet. You'll know when I address you and when I want to speak to you because I will address you. And until then, I don't want to hear from you. I'll email you when I want to hear from you. I'll text or I'll call you, and I will speak to you up here. Do you understand?

Thank you.

So you do understand?

In your three minutes, you're up.

But do you understand?

Next.

I'll ask you next month, too. Jerry. Shit.

Wait. Miss Rita Faulkner. Carly Acree King. Ms. Lynn Thornburg.

Lynn Thornburg. Good things coming up. Thursday is the bridge dinner on the Washington Street Bridge, which I love Washington Street, so anything on Washington Street is good. And this weekend is the 50th. Old Washington Street Festival. I have been around for all of them. Well, no, I'm lying. The second one, we moved to Michigan for a short while, and I missed because that's when Emily Kimbrough came, and I didn't get to see her riding in the Riggins milk wagon pulled by a horse. Lots of good things at the festival, of course. And reflecting back 25 years later, September 11th was Tuesday. The festival was that weekend. I was devastated. Jerry was the department head for the city. Mayor Cannon said, it's not shutting anything down. So we only had two people that didn't come. The vendors started calling, asking if they could bring things to sell, patriotic things, and they're going to give the money to the cause. The firefighters' wives printed off tons of shirts, and they sold them like crazy, the ones with the firefighters raising the flag. We had the Roger of the hometown band, he asked if we had extra chairs, because there were more than 50 people wanting to come. All people that played instruments wanted to come. The honor guard from the cemetery the chaplain it was the most largest festival we ever had because people needed to be around neighbors and people and away from the TV and it was wonderful and amazing and it's continuing It's I said I realized we did the festival for the first 25 years because we needed it We needed to sell houses. We needed to get people in our neighborhood and cut out the negativity But after that day, I knew that Muncie needed the festival That's all

Good evening, Chip Taylor, Munsonian by choice. So tonight council began, it's part of the city's budget process, and these are some of the most consequential decisions that the city makes. I think there's what, like $65 million at play here? And sadly, those decisions are made with little meaningful input from the public and not a whole lot more from the council, honestly. That's just the way the process is set up in state law, right? So, I mean, the mayor proposes a budget put together, I think, but my understanding, probably input from department heads, you know, their needs and desires. Then it comes to council. As the mayor told some students in my budgeting class one time several years ago, said that the council's only job is to check that the money's there, and if it's not, then you get to cut the budget. I think Mr. Basham kind of, you know, Recognize that's kind of council role and I don't want to minimize that oversight that oversight role It's an important one, but it doesn't mean you know It doesn't give the council really any prerogative to like shape priorities in the budget, right? I mean I think Previous council found out several years ago when they tried to increase some line items and like no no no you can't you can't do that and Um, but I think, you know, to the fact that even the councils at that point sort of like highlights the meaninglessness of some of these public, you know, the public input part, because like the, the, the budget's made, there's not really much that the public can say that's going to have any substantive input on the budget at this point. It's not just budgeting, but like a lot of processes, the second class city in Indiana, the mayor holds most of the cards. It's just set up that way. Mm-hmm . But when you hold most of the cards, it doesn't mean you always have to hold them all close to your vest. You don't have anything to lose really by laying them on the table, right, and letting everybody else see them. The city's a complex enterprise. It would be very surprising if one person had all the answers to how a city ought to be run. In a lot of places, local governments is a collaborative process, you know, between the elected officials, all the elected officials, and the public. And so I think there are ways the budget process can be opened up to input from others, especially like the council, while still respecting the mayor's statutory authority. So your representatives, and I think in a lot of respects, you're closer to the voters than the mayor is. And that's not a criticism of anybody. That's just like the difference in the role. And so you tend to be in touch with the needs of the community and your constituents. And so a more open process would give you a formal, even if non-binding, Opportunity to provide input into how the how the budget ought to be put together in America He could take your advice or not as he chooses that would still be his prerogative But he'd hardly be harmed by getting advice from people who have successfully got elected and know what their constituents want and his constituents, right? Maybe Ari does this with some of you. I wouldn't know Anyway, I bring this up now not because it'll change the budget. It won't this budgets like a cake. It's in the oven It's baking and your job is to pull it out of the oven on time, so it doesn't fall and Right. And so I do bring it up for two reasons. One, if you ever wonder why people have such strong opinions when there's some spending issue in front of you, it's because it's the only time they get to say anything about it in a way that might make sense. The other reason I bring it up, there's a municipal election next year, and I think a lot of candidates and comments or challengers, either one, if they can make a credible case that they have or will give regular people a voice in important decisions, they'll have a leg up on those who haven't and won't so thank you thank you thank you miss misty barn

have a question about job descriptions for city employees what is the process for revising those is it at the mayor's discretion or is there a process for that that comes before you guys and is put to public discussion you

No, go ahead. I'm not.

Okay. Can I recoup some of my time that is spent that I'm not being answered? I mean, I should just go on. This is how it works now, huh? Okay. Where can I find that information? You're kidding me.

Can we talk?

You?

We'll meet with you after the...

Okay. Um... Okay, this. Before I admittedly went off on a tangent earlier about unions and Republicans, I meant to finish my point about the condition, the physical condition the city is in. When I said that I worked for the street department as a teenager in eighth grade, Jim Carrey put me to work, but I then worked for two Republican mayors, Dan Cannon and Dave Dominick. And back then, Was not about being a Democrat or a Republican. It was about how the city looked and It was about having pride in the city We've come so far from that tonight It has been 11 years since I've been to a City Council meeting and I would like to say that I the lack of decorum, and I'm including myself here, folks, because when in Rome, do as the Romans, I fell under the spell of the Romans because I was appalled at the people shouting out from the audience. The next thing I know, Dell makes a comment and I'm shouting for my seat. I can do better. But at the end of the day, you guys are in charge. And so you're, I mean, if I can share my opinion, you need to make people like Chris, sit down or leave this is no place for critiques of your performance if you don't like it don't come and like i said if you don't like the job they're doing vote them out but you are still elected officials and deserving of respect okay dell i apologize about my comment Lost my mind. But I'm just, I'm disappointed in our city. And I'm disappointed that it's allowed to go on. I didn't know how I would feel coming here. Thank you for your comments. But I'll be back. Thank you, Mr. You're welcome.

Ms. Elizabeth Edgell.

Elizabeth Edgell. The last three weeks of July, 20 law enforcement agencies across 15 states held press conferences. They briefed councils. They published statements and posted to Facebook about the flock cameras. They all used the same vocabulary. They used misconception, misinformation, that people need to stop spreading misinformation, dispel the misinformation. And our mayor, when he made his announcement, I believe he said, clarify our stance. See, it's Flock's plan. They distribute an e-book to the customers called How to Speak to City Council about Public Safety Technology. Its conclusion is a chapter called Own the Narrative Before Someone Else Does. Chris Caldwell, who runs the product consulting training at Flock, is quoted saying that the story is going to get told either way. The only question is whether you're going to be the one telling it. So let me tell a story. Let me tell a story about how we've already had our privacy reneged on once already by our police officers. I believe seven of them And five people sued him over running their names illegally through NCIC a few years ago. All right, so they've already broken our public trust with that. And we all know how the mayor keeps his promises. I mean, there's the crisis center. How about we talk to industry about their community center or our roads? All right, so public trust is about at a zero right now. And so I don't trust that you guys have my best interest at heart when it comes to my data. Or anyone else is here, for that matter. I don't even think you care. And no one mentions that when they're arguing about this. But yet this is costing us a bunch of money. We can't have an inpatient treatment center because we're getting surveilled. We already have a million drones. Drones are everywhere. They're all over the city. Well, we got to have both of them? You know, those cost a lot of money, don't you? You know that after a five-year contract, that's about half a million dollars. There's some money you could do. free up for your budget instead of policing, you know, policing them. They've gone through and they've done 2.5 billion license plates have been read since they started this program. Well, no, just between 2016 and 2017. And, you know, 99.5% of them were innocent people.

Mr. President, may I make a comment on that?

Very briefly. No, there's more. There's more.

Judith Hill.

I would like to make a comment on that. Yes. Because it was just and she's leaving. Yeah. So but the mayor evidently in his community update and this is I wasn't going to say anything but he had said that the He's all in and that the City Council Visited the surveillance software to see how it works and that everyone is supportive of the cameras and that's not true That's not accurate. I don't know why he would say that I That is not what I said that day. So I just wanted to clarify that I wish miss agile would have been in and I've had several constituents Contact me about what the mayor falsely said his community update and I wish he were here so that he could explain.

Mr. President, I want to follow up on that please. I want to make it clear, same. I did not say anything about supporting flock cameras. We listened to the information.

Miss Judith Hill. That was it. We just listened.

Judith Hill, Muncie. I have three issues that need to be addressed. The first issue is just public knowledge because it was in the Star Press. Two of the Muncie City Councilmen ran and won on the Democratic ticket but switched to the Republican Party. your constituents who voted for you and trusted you with their vote as you campaigned for the good of the people. If the Democratic Party was a so-called shift to the far left, why did you not resign and campaign as a Republican? for your Council position instead of creating a Republican majority on the Muncie City Council. You can explain the answer at the next meeting because we don't want to prolong this meeting any longer. The second issue is I have a serious complaint on why each meeting lasts from 10 to 11 p.m. We have one retired teacher educator and one active teacher educator who always ask for clarifications on ordinance, resolutions, committee reports, and always add or subtract from their original discussion until the final vote is always denied or changed, then voted down by the majority five to four. This only prolongs the meetings and those in attendance begin to leave before it is over. Now the third and the final is on the tax abatement. On the tax abatement issue for businesses that was discussed last month, we need to know how many years does this cover? One of the council members went to this beautiful big building for a personal tour and reported why this abatement should be granted. I want to know if you put your boots on and waded through the water. Now let me say this again. I want to see if you put your boots on and waded through the water amid mud and destruction and disaster to speak to these people whose homes were destroyed. The community would like to see on paper how many tax abatement companies that were awarded tax abatements that are still in Muncie are closed from the last 8 years. This affects the tax base for our city and whenever a tax abatement person leaves Our real estate taxes go up and everything else.

Thank you for your comments, ma'am.

Let us know at the next meeting for the sake of time.

Mr. Wainscape.

Wainscape. You know, I'm disappointed. I'm so disappointed. Mr. Green. It is your decision not to hear curse words, whether it's your belief or whatever, and you do not allow that. But you can't understand the fact, because that's your religious beliefs, but you can't understand the fact that some of our religious beliefs are against the end God we trust, but you vote for that. You don't mind offending us, but when you're offended by what we say or do, there's a problem. That's what we're trying to get you to understand. But y'all voted for that mess. And my second thing is, Roe, I'm so disappointed in you. I am so disappointed in you, Roe. I'm not talking about the Dishmans and the Garretts switching, but me and you've had conversations about what's going on right now and about how you don't play party favorites and how you were seen as an outsider and you go along with everything that the Republicans One, everything, and it's so obvious. I mean, you've had too many discussions about this, how you're not a Republican, because you just, all this nonsense, and you doing all this stuff. And I'm telling you, it's disappointing. And I promise you, I hope I don't see you when you're campaigning. I really hope I don't see you when you're campaigning, because I'll blurt it out, and I'll tell everything. And the one thing I want to say is that last administration, when all those investigations were going on, you were right in the center of it laughing because you were so glad because they finally got caught. Matter of fact, if you go on YouTube and pull up those investigations, you were C-Roll with her camera right out here laughing because she thought it was funny. But when they asked for a simple, like she said, this is not a criminal or civil investigation, you said no. But you were so happy when the Democrats were on the other side and thinking they were going to get it. You were all for that. But you sat up here and go along with this party lying nonsense. This is, I mean, I'm not Democrat or Republican. Don't get me wrong. I'm not campaigning for Democrats. But it's so obvious what you guys are doing. And this is getting ridiculous. I mean... I mean, I ain't got nothing to say. I'm just disappointed in your role. I'm really, I thought we were friends and we talked and we had several conversations about this nonsense. And you're right up there doing it. When there's something you don't want to hear, you lean back and you frown. And then with something we know you're going to vote for, we can always tell how you're going to vote. Because you're up there smiling and giggling.

Thank you, Mr. Skay.

Thank you.

I'm disappointed.

Mr. Rodney Vaughn.

Okay, I have a couple things. I'm only 5'6". I'm not as tall as you, McIntyre. I found out now who my person is in my district, and it's Mr. Dishman. But I've never seen him at any meetings. Never seen him even walk the neighborhood. Don't know why. But when it comes to election time, we'll see you. But after election, we won't see you. You don't even know who's in your neighborhood. Same with you, Mr. Garrett.

Oh, buddy, I've been there 40 years.

I have never seen you. Not while you come on community council meetings.

You come to Southside Town, you're going to see me.

I have not seen you in none of the meetings.

Okay. Well, okay.

You're not supposed to talk when I'm talking, sir. You're not supposed to talk when I'm talking. Shut your mouth.

Don't tell me to shut my mouth.

Okay, well, whatever you want to do.

No, no, no, no, not happening.

You're not supposed to talk when I'm talking. If you disagree, then disagree. You got the wrong one, buddy. Okay. My thing is this. You as a Democrat switched to Republican in a Democratic place that you was running for. So you traded on your own people. You are a traitor. You are a traitor. That's all I got to say. Traitor. Next. Next.

Mr. Paul Partizano. Miss Daisy Dale.

I have a lot of thoughts on everything going on. I'm just going to promote an event happening. I'm doing an event with Carnegie Library on October 1 at 6 PM. It's sort of a historical event. For those who don't know, my great-great-grandfather was mayor of Muncie in the 1920s. He was a newspaper editor. He started the Muncie Post Democrat in 1921 and basically had a lot of legal issues with the Ku Klux Klan throughout that decade. He then became mayor in 1929 after all of it. And this year actually marks 100 years since a Indiana Supreme Court decision that ruled against him. And so in the ruling against him, the quote was, the truth is no defense, is what was put in it. So the event is titled, The Truth is No Defense, Georgia's Legal Fight with Ku Klux Klan. And so that's going to be happening at Carnegie Library. I just want to promote that. That's a kind of historical thing I have going on. And you're all invited to it. I'll send a flyer and everything. Thank you.

It's over first.

Ms. Willow-Craig? Ms. Campbell?

I apologize, I was missing.

Good evening, members of the Muncie City Council. My name is Pasha Campbell. I'm trying not to get emotional. My children and I lived without running water for 73 days from February 24th until May 8th, 2026, until a judge ordered the water restored. Tonight, I want several things placed on the public record. First, I have serious concerns about representations must-see Housing Authority officials made to HUD. Katina Stroud communicated with HUD Portfolio Management Specialist Corey Fierro concerning what happened to my water service. I believe statements made to HUD concerning responsibility for shutting off my water are materially contradicted by evidence I possess, including grievance records, communications, utility records, and recordings. I will let those records speak for themselves in court. Second, I want code enforcement conduct on the record. I sought government assistance concerning these conditions, yet information was later communicated to the Health Department indicating that I had never reported the issue. I have documentation of my communications. I also want the conduct of Health Department Administrator Jamie Bain and Inspector Jeremy Pettigrew placed on the record, including how the orders concerning my residence were handled, communications with MHA representations, that I was noncompliant, and the lack of accountability for why these conditions reached that point. But tonight, I also want to talk about reform. I intend to pursue policy reform as a result of what happened to my family. When incredible evidence indicates that a government employee may have participated in depriving a family of an essential utility, violated residence rights, falsified or misrepresented material info, or provided materially inconsistent sworn testimony, there should be an immediate independent investigation. Employees accused of serious misconduct should not simply be allowed to investigate themselves or continue exercising unchecked authority over the same residents while those allegations are being investigated. I am specifically asking for accountability concerning Curtissa Goodwin, Katina Strouch, Jason Phelps, and Billy Davis. If the evidence establishes serious misconduct, I believe termination should be on the table. And I believe policies should be changed so that governmental immunity does not become a shield for intentional misconduct or violations of residents' constitutional and statutory rights. Public employment should come with public accountability. My own efforts to clean and sanitize my home do not establish government compliance. Inspection notices do not establish compliance. And none of that answers the fundamental question, why did it take 73 days? Why did my children and I remain without running water until a court intervened? My lawsuit is pending, and my jury trial is scheduled for March 1, 2027. The jury will ultimately determine the disputed facts, but accountability and policy reform do not have to wait until trial. I will continue appearing before this council while this case is pending. I want answers, I want accountability, and I intend to advocate for policies that prevent another Muncie family from ever experiencing what mine did. Thank you. Thank you.

This has been an advocate. Mr. Jason Donati.

Good evening, Council. Jason Donati. First, I want to give my condolences to Craig Wright's family. It's a tragic loss, and so my condolences to his family and friends. Whose district is Westside Park?

Mine.

Have you been there recently?

After the flood, it's bad.

Yeah, so... And this isn't a critique on city employees or anything, but we have some serious safety concerns there. There was a public event last weekend where kids... We're supposed to do a one-mile race. And the shelters are full of debris and stuff from the flood a month later. Picnic tables were scattered throughout. Check it out, please, and look into it because I say all that to say this. We're having the White River cleanup this Saturday, and we're asking for volunteers to show up. We're asking for crew leaders. We still need crew leaders. You can sign up at beautifulmuncie.org. It's at Westside Park from 8 a.m. to noon. You can walk along the banks, you can get in a canoe. It's a great event and it's something that's really needed. But we're going to have to shift some of our volunteers to actually chainsaw and work in the park because we can't even use the shelter that we used every year. So I'm not sure what the hang up is there. I know that there's some issues with the equipment and the equipment needs to be sanitized and replaced. I understand that, but We're talking about the shelters. And there's also some trees with hanging limbs, which brings me up to another point that I'd like to bring up. There's not much transparency on what's happening with the urban forestry program. Um, I think that's something that needs to be looked into. It's my understanding that some of that has shifted to public works and that there's a large federal grant that the city received. Um, but I looked all throughout the city of Muncie's website for information on that. I was finally able to find a non-government website talking about the grant and that the ability to cut down trees and plant trees. But I think there's some issues there with transparency and how that's working out and what's going on there. And if even the urban forestry program is still with the parks department. Just some questions there that other members of the community and myself are asking because I've seen tree work done with new equipment. I've seen trees cut down that aren't nearly as bad as a lot of other trees I've seen. So just, you know, just looking for some transparency. If there could be something posted to the city's website on giving an update on what's going on there, that would be great. And then lastly, just again, if you would like to volunteer for the White River cleanup this Saturday, go to beautifulmuncie.org and sign up and pre-register and we would love to have you. Thank you.

That's not going to happen.

You are not God. You are the president of the council, not God. Call point of order. Point of order. Point of order, my ass. Cancel the meeting. Cut the meeting off. Have me arrested. Because I come up there and ask you to put my name on that list. And you took it up after 7 o'clock because I just got off work? We're in our right to.

You are within your right to set guidelines for public comment, which can include...

Even if somebody's late and comes up and tries to sign up and they won't let you?

Which can include submitting... You shut up, lady. At the time the meeting begins.

No.

No.

So we are... Public comment is now concluded. Okay.

So if somebody comes in late, they can't sign up for public comment? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah.

by the time you look for it.

Ma'am, it doesn't matter if I'm 45 minutes to 3 hours late. If I need to speak, I want to speak. Point of order. Keep banging that son of a bitch. Keep banging it, buddy. Keep banging it. Break the same thing. You are not God. You are the president of the council. That is it. Not God. No kidding. And I'm not trying to be. So shut your fucking mouth.

Would you like, you may. Beat it. Beat it. Legal counsel. Beat it. I would recommend you cease your comments, Mr. Barber, at this point in time. No, it's not going to happen. The council does have the opportunity to seek the Muncie Police Department. Seek them and arrest me. And to eject you from the cat.

Come get me. Come get me. We'll try this again. No, we're not. Because you know they're wrong. Do you escort me out of here? You know it's wrong. After refusing me public comment because I was late, because I got in from work late? That's not right. Do what you need to do. But that man there needs to resign from this board immediately. You've told them three minutes and then you've got other people that's complying to show them praise to these people getting four minutes. That's not right either. Just do the right thing.

I actually held my comments because it wasn't part of what Matt said. So I did my due diligence for what this gentleman said. Hey, don't go off chart. That's the reason I came up right afterwards.

That's the reason I came up and asked to sign up. It's up to you.

Allow him or go ahead and cancel.

You don't allow one, you better allow the rest of them. If you refuse one, you better refuse the rest of them because you don't want to hear what the hell I have to say. Motion to adjourn. They're not ready to second it. Nobody's seconded it yet.

I'll make a motion to adjourn.

Nobody's seconded it yet. Thank you, counsel. At least you finally stood up to him because he's not God. He's not God. He can't tell you to shut your mouth just like he can't tell me to shut mine. And I appreciate that for not seconding that motion, folks. You guys have a good night. That's finally one time that you guys all stood together besides Mr. Basham and Mr. Green. Thank you. You shut your fat fucking mouth.

Hey, dude. Get in here.

Mr. President, if possible, I would like to hear what Mr. Burgess has to say just because he was respectful of the council rules. He was. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.

Listen, I'm a shed-towner. I could come up here and scream and yell, too, but it don't get us nowhere. Please, next meeting, let's turn the heat down. You're killing this fat flame. Okay? I am sweaty. All right. Mr. Wagle said something along the lines that our negotiations was confidential. I've used a sign-in sheet, but it didn't say anything about confidential. I don't know if he's saying that someone is bringing the wrong material out because a lady spoke earlier and said 2023. Of course, that's wrong. Audie called it a green day. That's wrong. If I was giving information out, I think these people would be on. If he's referencing me talking about how negotiations went. Someone give me a Bible.

I'll put my hand on it now.

Now, Indiana is a one-state consent. I'm sure they recorded it. Mr. Basham agreed with me all the way up until he left. So what did I lie on? Because after Basham left, They retracted the 4%. What did I lie on? So I'm sure they got me recorded. Prove me wrong. I get a little fired up, but I'm trying to hold it in, OK? I'm a big scary guy, but I'm trying to hold it in. So with that being said, I'm going to start recording every single thing now, because the state of Indiana is a one-party state. Also, I'd like to extend the olive branch to Mr. Billy Mack. If we go back to negotiations, we get a pick who we take with us as our team. Would you join us?

I'll be honored.

Thank you. That's all I got to say.

We'll entertain a motion to adjourn the meeting.

I'll second that.

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Meeting adjourned.