Harbor Committee - Regular Meeting

the audio on right. Welcome back after your long summer vacation. What's the vacation? Oh, well anyway, hard work. The first item on the agenda is to approve the minutes of June 10th. I'd like to make a motion to approve the minutes of June 10th. Seconded. Any discussion. Okay. All in favor say I. I. Opposed and carried. And we'll move right on to new business. And uh Laura is here about oysters.

Hi. State your name. Laura.

I'm Lauren Gray. I live on the Cranberry and live in Alford. Um school teacher out there and I started my own oyster farm in 2016, cranberry oysters. And I'm here today to ask permission uh to sell oysters at the officer dock. Um recently a new license became available um called the limited harvester license or limited retail license where I would be able to sell direct to consumer from my boat. Um, previously I was not allowed to sell direct to the consumer. There's a lot of regulations around the sale of oysters. Um, you can sell from your home to reach retail consumers, but not during vibrio control months, which are the summer months. Um, and home sales don't really benefit me because I live on Islesford and you'd have to walk, you know, mile and a half to my house. Um, so I've been trying to reach retail consumers and with this new license, I've been able to do that. So I recently got permission from Cranberry Isle Select Board to sell at their town docks. Um, and I have been running a one-hour sale on Fridays 2 to three and I just pull up and have a cooler and sell um, to people that I've advertised through social media. So, I was looking to possibly do the same thing um at the Mount Desert town dock and was curious to know if that's something you would allow or if you had any

You had mentioned more about the farmers market time frame too. Right. Yeah. So, I would be able to do the retail license is attached to my boat, so I have to be on the boat to sell the oysters. So, I could do that during the farmers market hours if that would be preferable. Um or I know your dock space gets pretty tied up at that time. So I'd also be open to other times. Um now you're selling to Bar Harbor Oyster right now. Yes. Bring them in the dock.

Yeah. So I have to sell uh to a wholesale dealer. Bar Harbor is a wholesale dealer. So they then distribute to MDI restaurants for me. So you um just to be clear uh if we uh Thursday's busy down there anyway with the farmers market, but you can't have a booth in in that display area. I could do it that way. I would then have to get a different license that would be attached to my car. Oh, okay. Um and I was trying to just use this license to go to different docks. So any commercial we run into things people want to set up stuff if it's advertised at all. Like you couldn't sell like a W could sell us cats for you can't advertise time in a place

like to meet you because like you know what I mean we're limited the commercial activity right now if you were there at the time. Yeah. You know what I mean? We're not we people approach us do stuff from a taxi to had a sign up. You can't advertise the usage out of a commercial thing unless you have a commercial operator's permit. Okay. That's like and that's so the commercial operators permits are also at least my understanding is it's by lottery. Yeah. So it's a really complicated process for this I think to happen

and we don't even have like we had bike tours kind of taking over advertising. So we've had to like we think the farmers market with the car is your best option at the moment. I I really do too and u I don't know what the procedure would be for you to get that type of license but um you've got a great product and I think you'd have more success at the farmers market. I really do. It's very busy. Uh every Thursday there have you been to it? There's long lines.

I've been to it. Um, one thing that selling directly from the dock would be really beneficial is I'm allowed to sell like it's not considered a shocked product unless it's um removed from the shell. So, I could actually shock the oysters and serve them to people at like a cocktail hour too. But that would be more like a food truck setup, but it would be on the dock. So, you you the boatyard has a seasonal right tie up and you have a float. Yeah. So you have access if you weren't advertising. Okay. You could get people out on the float that they could ride along to you, you know, as long as you're not advertising. Okay. I get advertise. What I'm saying is so you didn't if no one and Gray didn't have their boat tied up,

right? And you had the permit. There was also a German you could pull in and use that tie up you guys already paid for. Okay. And unload to people, you know what I mean? Take them up to people as long as you're not advertising. But some other commercial aspects run operate out of here. I see. But they don't advertise that the facility is part of their of their operation. Plumbers and you know what I mean? You can't you can't say like come down come to the Norththeast Arbor Pier at 3 p.m. I'll be there. Okay. But you guys are already paying for space down here multiple ways that you could buy your boat up and still sell. Okay. And so like can sell their product. The only thing we're not allowed to do, you can't put a sign up say lobsters for sale. Oh, okay.

That's right. You know what I mean? It's like I can't be You can name your boat lobsters for sale. I can't put a sign up on my boat and say lobsters for sale. So, I couldn't use the Newman Grey Mo dock and then put up a flag that said oysters for sale. But I could You could put your oyster company flag up. Put my oyster company. I I don't know about oysters. That's a state question. All I know is for lob for lobsters. I was thinking you were saying that was like a mountain there. No, out on your moing. I I wouldn't care if you had a sign that says oysters for sale. Okay. Because you're not tying up a town dock. That that dock actually belongs to Newman and Gray. Okay.

Uh and it wouldn't take long for word of mouth to spread, right? You know, but you can't come put a sandwich board up in the marina saying oysters that float 306. You couldn't do that. But we could do it for a longer time and you would get a lot of the the yacht business would come in and it would be an unique thing like you could do like a raw bar out there. Yeah. You know, people would come to you people come to you and I think it would be actually easier than you like walking them up or trying to meet. You know what I mean? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like that I was trying to do like you know like you would see like the Bahamas where people can come and like But you have you already rent the spot. Okay. You know what I mean? I didn't know that was even an option. That that would certainly sounds like a more viable option at the moment.

It sounds like you also need more time if you're going to be shucking and feeding people. You're going to need more time than allows at the at the right. Yeah. I haven't I can like do it either way. Or miss it with you to even get a spot. So you might be frustrated like circling around. Yes. It's only a couple of spots. That Yeah, that has happened a even. So um yeah, that's a good point. But yeah, I can also just sell like whole product in like a dozen bag too if that was But you I'm would come out. Yeah. No, but you know I mean if I knew you were going to be in the hard especially with the summer. Jeez. I wish I wasn't a oyster oyster and being out rather than the dock and I think your quality of customer will be better if they're putting going to put the effort in.

You know you're going to appreciate more than just coming down. You know what I mean, right? Yeah. just once people see whatever flag you put up, they'll know now's the time to come. But I I would check with the state law. Like I said, how I know I wouldn't see why, but all I know is that with a with a license attached. Okay, I think I understand it now. Yeah. All right. So, how long were you thinking of sitting at if you were on the town dock, were you going to be there for an just an hour or

Well, yeah. I've just been doing an hour just like on our route when we're doing deliveries. Um, and that's really, you know, like people that are buying oysters from me are regular customers. Like here, there would be more like people that happen to be milling around. Um, but if they know it's two to three, they show up then and it's efficient. Um, I was just thinking of for easier access for your customers and see if Clifton Doc would do something. Yeah, that's that's where there's that's where your clients are going to be in the summer, right? Hey, some of us will help out too. Maybe even pulling into the fleet dock for an hour, right? You know.

Yeah, I like kind of use the private docks instead. And you can pull into our dock if you have slips, but we just can't say Yeah. Out and set up a grill, right? And save a time, you know, advertise that I'm selling on this. Okay. Yeah, that's a good solution. And I can look into that regulation. Um, I think we're we're trying to encourage you, you know, I think it's a good idea. We just can't give you the dark space, right? I can see why you couldn't do that because it would be, you know, you have to be Well, I mean, a can be a can of worms. Yeah.

I appreciate that you do see that position in all of us. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little different than so. I think it would definitely add something a draw to our harbor as well, especially for the people transient boats coming up. Yeah, people are always looking for an experience like that at the auto, right? Okay. Well, that would work for me. I feel excited about that option. Okay. Yeah. Thank you for Yeah. I'm gonna move on. We have somebody on screen here that's costing the town costing us money that package he said. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Good luck. Good luck.

Good luck to you. Okay. Uh going to turn the meeting over to Greg. Yeah. You ready, Greg? I am. You guys can hear me. Okay. Good. Sure can. Well,

I I didn't waste any time driving from Southwest to Northeast, so it it's okay where I am on the agenda. Um, we're not spending too much money. Um, so I I sent you guys a draft RFQ and um for the the Wararf reconstruction um I did get a few comments back and um Chris, the one you had of um the idea of making it bid ready um I mean construction ready at the time of bid documentation. I think we've addressed that where the um the bid documents themselves are at 95% instead of 100% of the CDs. And um I that's a way to address it such that if they learn something through the bid process that may save money that that can get incorporated into the bid set prior to release. But I wholly agree that there shouldn't be a big gap in time or dollars between bid documentation and um uh construction CDs. Um

you just you got burned bad the last project. So yeah. So maybe um was that that I was just reading into the email and your intent is that bid goes out those things are ready to be built but there not like oh we need x amount more to get it from bid to CDs. Exactly. And I I think the cost of this I think we think we've got money, but I think that the overall cost gets in there and what we actually have to spend per year on it, I think it's going to be tighter than than we we think. But

um so maybe I'll share I think uh when I've had that um I'm going to try to share screen just for a minute to pilot through a couple of things. Um what I have um built in is that long before um it goes out to bid that there's a there's a sort of a a speed bump where we say we need estimated construction costs prior to proceeding in the the um I'm sorry that's probably pretty small for you guys but yes

um prior to proceeding into bid documentation that we have a gut check on costs. Um they can do unit unit takes off takeoffs of their their designs that have progressed through the um sort of meetings with you guys and that's a fact check. If we got to go back value engineer stuff out in before they spend money in getting permits that then come out the other side and you're like oh well we had to change something after we got permits and then you're back in this washer machine cycle of getting permits. So, I hope that I think that will address sort of um costing before those those next actions. Um and then you can see we're we're added the 95% CD. Um

and penalties for underperformance. Now, like when this we just did the firehouse construction, they didn't want to pursue a lot of the penalties because the lawyer's helmet is worth of oil legal fees. and some contractors know that I don't want to get in this where we get delays. I mean, it's going to be under real time crunch that I mean, from the get-go, they gota it's got to be done on time or have really really stiff penalties.

Yeah, I think that's a good um So, we got two things going on. I'm a I u I'm a proponent of liquidated damages. Um sometimes it's all the teeth you have even aside from um it's the only time you can meet time frame um requirements. So thinking about this proposal, this is going out to solicit the um engineering team which would be again engineers to evaluate um um in terms of existing survey baometric um geotechnical investigation. Then there's a element of wave runup analysis. Not only taking the current FEMA data, uh current FEMA data is outdated by almost 10 years and there's uh 10 more years of storms and wind actions that can be put into these models and say, you know what, actually FEMA is ready to update their maps anyways. And if they haven't by then, you don't want to be behind the curve. that they're required to give a uh analysis that says here we are what are we with really with the current um storm situations and then also um uh extrapolate that to a sea level rise element and so we've included that in here to help inform decisions of like the whole design um without that I you know they a lot of folks might say well this is what FEMA says and go I don't think that's the way to do it so um but the the part that's going now is for the consultant to um design existing conditions, design uh the the project with you guys. The portion about liquidated damages is um the contract for the actual work and uh I certainly agree that would be in that element of uh performance for the work. So I I understand why I was mentioning

that it's the better job they do engineering and have it ready to go with you know what I mean and no kind of issues with it. We don't have to change with that that that that will give someone a better competitive bid knowing that the bids are going to be higher when you impose such those kind of penalties on

Yep. and wanted to get it started like drilled in that that's can't be like the other projects we've done down there. Understood. Um and I think we can communicate that through um why don't we um let's let's look at sort of I have the meat of the order for you guys. Um, one thing John and I have kind of batted back and forth about is sort of how does this get delivered? And maybe if we walk through a little bit of the time frame um, elements and um, you guys start to see how this unfold and comment because I think it's deserving of your candidate to know in the RFP what your anticipated time frame is even if it's not to the Monday or the Tuesday. And I think that um, so let's see if I can get that up. So, uh, we're just before this. Um, our goal is to give you, um, a week in advance of your October meeting. Um, the RFP that we've developed, we shared a a draft in the summer. Um, and so we're searing to have that in your hand by um, October 14th. If you guys agree, um, it's ready to go, we'll advertise it. I think that advertising once in the paper we can talk about um besides just advertising in the paper we have targeted half a dozen vendors we think it fits for and we'll make sure they get it in their hand including prior folks who have um prior folks that have actually on projects to study um other events that we worked on the ferry terminals and stuff like that. So, um, end of October, advertise, um, try to

give them, um, five to six weeks to get their team members because they have a lot of vendors. And so, we're receiving proposals uh, December 4th, which, let me, I should put it the days in here. Let me pull that up. Okay.

Yeah, December. Go ahead. December 4th is a Tuesday. Um, excuse me, Thursday. And that open them, have a chance to review, um, have them in front of you. You obviously can get them right after the meeting. We'll scan them at the town office and distribute them um, leading up to your meeting on December 9th. um open discussion without the vendor just yourselves review our our comments on the 9th. Um I then added a window in here between the 9th and someday before the holiday that if you want to interview or have a Zoom or follow-up questions for any of the vendors before you make a final recommendation, that's what that window is. Um, and I think that could be productive. You may not need to. By the 9th, you might say, "This is the one we want to choose, but I've built in that twoe period that if we need to coordinate something from the responders."

Um, go ahead. I can't see the room, so just interrupt me. Hey, yeah, thanks. Uh, so this is Jav. I just want to know Janu Harvard on January 6, it says Harvard M committee recommendation to select board. Is that at our regular meeting? Because I would imagine that would be like, you know, something greater than six and less than 15. Uh, good question. I went to the first Tuesday of January, which is the 6th. Second Tuesday, right? We meet on the second Tuesday. Nice. Okay. I don't know what day it is, but uh, no, I'm in.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, we want 26. We want then 13th. January 13th. Yeah. The 6th is the 1st. So then it would be the 13th. Yeah. Roger that. Got it. Seven. You're not an engineer yet. All right. I know the dates. I just don't know when you guys meet. 13. Greg. So just fix the year as well on on your slide here. You have 2025. Yeah. January. January. D two more right here. Right. Yeah, I get it. Y Y just giving you a heads up. Uh yeah. So this is

understand we're doing this before our regular meeting. So got it. Yeah. Time travel as possible. I think Greg, if you could uh let John that off and give it to us in advance, it would be hopeful. You we you attach that when I give you the minutes to the I will. Yeah, I figured if I had a a few ground through little parts of it now, I could probably get the meat of it in and make it more efficient for the next time with the proposal. So, yes, it definitely will be attached.

Everyone is very enthusiastic about this project, so we want it to go as smooth as possible. if we need to have an extra meeting sometime because we want to get all this before and get something on the warrant. Yes, I'm thinking that December 13th through 22nd might be the time we would need another if we need one just let's call another another meeting is there for Yeah, that's what I expected.

Yeah. So, uh yeah, that would gets us through to um recommendation in January to um selectman um in February or even the second meeting of the selectman in January and preparation of warrant in February. Yeah.

And that's that's for the consultant. Um so then we look at um they would be awarded in May after the town meeting in 26 and we're given um 31 months which is basically 2 years and 7 months for um survey geotech the meetings of design um bids and uh permitting um which I don't think it's lofty. I think it's a a reasonable time frame. Um but once we get into Army Corps and D, those timelines seem to be um pretty far out these days just by staffing. Um and I think we're looking at then construction awarded it in uh town meeting May 2028 and construction September 2020 2028. Okay. Sounds like a plan.

That's a plan. All right. So, what I'm going to do is I'm going to I can doctor this back up. I'll attach it to the RFP, including the edits that I got uh comments via email, and I'll have it to you. Um it may be long before your next meeting, at least a week, but I I can get it to you as soon as I can. It may not be by the end of this week, but next week I can get you to the package and then at your next meeting. Um, if you guys have comments leading up to the meeting, you can email me. So, when we're at the meeting, we've maybe adjusted them. Um, so hopefully we can turn it around at your next meeting. I have another question. Uh, Greg, I have one more question. Sure.

So, will we Oh, can you leave that screen up? Sorry. Yep. Let's see. Where was I?

Question based on that screen. Uh, so will we not know how long it takes to actually do the construction until after we get the design and permits and all that or do we already know? Because if we already know how long it'll take or what we're expecting, can we add that as construction finish? You know, the next line down. Um in the RFQ we've asked for um before you release construction documents on the consultant we're selecting we need a engineers estimate for the project and construction schedule. Um and so at that stage I think you can back into what time you need for uh construction. I think how that was your your question. long.

Yeah. Long before the project is out to bid. Um there's a a time frame estimate with the costs so that you can adjust and react in the in the um construction end of it. Okay. So, we don't know yet. I understand. We'll find out. So, the preferred engineering firm, the one that did the initial survey for us down there, Yeah. they gave us initial idea and they said it probably could be done between November and the end of April. Oh, that would be awesome. which would be perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Give them this start September. Yeah. Exactly. Lofty. I think October might be a better start time because September is still But basically, we would have the summer

have we're going to have other uninterrupted summer. It doesn't really work. Is that is that in the engineering too? Are they going to take care of the design for the uh access to the north pier? It's gonna be every everything is going to be in everything. Now, you you've used the term RFP and RFQ. We're talking about the same document, correct? We are. Yep. Chris. Yep.

Okay. Uh the only thing I'm going to suggest is there was some comment about um individuals contacting Greg directly. I I suggest that we contact go all contacts go through John uh to keep the board informed. And that that would be my only recommendation. You can have any question you want, but please go through John. Okay. Yeah. And and Greg, if if someone doesn't go through John by accident, can you just CC John and that way we'll still be in the loop? Yeah. Well, no, that I I'll try to do it. Um

it it and it's very helpful. I Rick, what you say because a lot of times I'll I'll say, "John, what are they talking about?" and John will give me a little background about other discussions that happen around in his office or at the meetings I may not be at and that helps me um react a little bit better. So yeah, if somebody sends it to me doesn't copy John, I'll forward it back to John. Give him all of our emails. So we're getting all the stuff you're seeing should help them. Yeah. So we're seeing sends you to send it to all of us. Then we have a Yeah. Okay. Very important project. Uh, and we want it to go smoothly and thank you for Thank you, Greg. Thank you very much.

Okay, I think we're on a a good time track and I I do like that we had some progress through the months off and I feel like we're right there. So, um, shouldn't be less than two weeks. I'll put the schedule and the RFP into your inbox. Thank you. Thanks. Great. Thank you very much, guys. Yeah. Have a good night. Um, we go back to our agenda, but there's a lady in the audience. You um, I'm Rebecca Ally. I'm been covering Mount Der for the islander. Just trying to get some more.

Okay, fine. That's that's fine. We need We need all the positive coverage we can get. Okay. Thank you very much, everybody. Um, I'm going to go on to back to our agenda and the commercial float. Oh, that was opening openings. The commercial float. Do we have an open? We do. Oh, okay. And I don't know about it. The commercial float openings for a six-pack because the uh the delight has retired and up his spot.

John Dwwelly um was a great person to have down there. Never had any complaints about him, I don't think. ever. Um, so but yes, that will the advertisement will hit the islander and maybe the American on Thursday. It will also be in next Thursday's paper. Uh, they are due back to the town office with their uh description of services and everything asked for proposals. Proposals. There we go. There's the word. Uh, are you limiting this opening to a six pack? It is a six-pack. Okay.

So, they're due to the town office by I think 2:00 on Friday before your meeting. Um, I will go through them, have them ready to present to you guys at our October meeting. And it's just no schedule, just it's a pickup drop off. Pickup drop off only. No schedule. No fishing tour. It can be a fishing tour. Okay. Anything you can do on a six-pack. It could be a sailboat. It could be something that takes people out and hauls a few traps and takes them fishing. It could be a water taxi. He doesn't have scheduled any scheduled trips with this. Delight had no schedule. Okay.

So, it really won't have a hu it won't be a massive impact. His he was there. He was actually a steady oper. He was. Yes. So, and I I do want to uh I I think we were going to get busy with stuff. Uh Story brought up a good point. I think we need to review again and keep on the burner for the you know, not letting a group come in and own all the licenses. I think we got to be really aware of that and possibly also prioritizing to commercial entities and proportionally what the state law allows. So, we're giving we prefer to give opportunities to the local operators first. Didn't we do that? We we we talked about it but is not in our organ.

We did it for other things but not for commercial operators yet. And so that's something we can address if we want. Yeah. It should be addressed because the last time we had a lottery didn't matter if you were out of town or Sure. And we we lost big time. Yep. And I think that's going to be the case this time, but not next time. Well, we're going to have a we got to have a prioritized system. Sure. Like we did with the morning weight list, right? We could do something similar, but it it will take a an ordinance change to do it. Sure. Yeah.

It's something else, you know, we'll have some ordinance stuff that we'll discuss in the meet mix between now and January also. Like winning the lottery. Yep. Okay. Everybody understand goals? Sure.

All right. So, another piece as far what I just mentioned weight list. I finally got a finished product back from online mooring. I have been implementing it uh over the past two weeks. I've got two weight lists left in Seal Harbor to finish up, but uh we did a test with one of the weight lists and it worked very well. it does exactly what we want it to do. So, we started implementing it across the board and it's a some of the smaller list. It's amazing to see the difference that the way it filters out the way it filtered out for people that are residents. Yeah.

So, it it works and it uh it's very easy to implement. So, going forward it will uh it shouldn't be an issue. In the form we discussed, did you make it so it's the the did you put the wording in that it's the responsibility of the applicant or person on the wait list provide necessary information to you on the new forms that we have that it asks for all that you know but does I know residency and and broof and you get what I'm saying? So it's not there's no it's their responsibility as an applicant to supply you all the information. Yes. And then we're scrutinizing it, you know, quite

uh quite a bit too to make sure we get the yes or no on the residency. So because that's the most important question that answers how it all filters out, right? But I mean they need to provide to a commercial fish or a business entity, you know what I mean? Proof of, you know, incorporation, etc., etc. And just not property ownership, actual residency. Sure. By the definition, no, definitely. You have to be a statutory resident for the town of Mount Desert. It's 183 days. Committee service.

Oh, John. Um, you because this thing went into law or ordinance or whatever at the beginning of the summer, you've been giving out some permits under this. I have. And how's that gone? Like have people been shocked that they got it or No, because there really hasn't been any shockers yet. There are still some list where there are no residents that are applying for a morning. So, wow. And we've been doing it manually looking down through the list to find the first resident to offer. I'm combing through the list. Yeah. Other than those two lists that I haven't finished, what I'll should have done by the end of the week. Yeah.

Uh I don't have to go searching anymore. go to the list and it spells it out for and they provide you a vessel registration vessel. They have to when they're off for the morning and not something registered that day. Wow. Is that available online again to see that list or is it still not? It is not yet until you're finished all this work, right? Yes, it should go come back so you can see it. Yeah. So until it's finished and but it took online more than three or four months to build the product is we had a lot of back and forths because there's a lot to it. Yeah. Yeah. But they they did a good job and it didn't cost us a penny.

That's great. The moing owner pays that $7 fee covers everything and you have a $20 weight must pay every year. 22 22 22 We gave 10% of that. of it is us and seven is yes but there's no fee for change in series right just the registration fee for your moing and that part even works too because if you already are a moing owner whether you're a resident or not you bubble right up you you have that status as being a moing owner right so it all works which was amazing we were amazed that it did exactly what we wanted it to on the first Try.

Thank you. Yeah, it was a good online moing. Thanks for letting the time end and make it happen. Yeah. And I have one other thing. I have a uh new vendor that wants to become a uh certified diving mooring inspector. His name is Scott Trundy. Been doing it for 20 years. Uh I've talked with him. He sent me a letter. Um, and I'd just like a motion from one of you to approve him as a certified morning inspector for the town of Mount Desert. Are you recommending them? I am. Okay. So, move. I'll second. Any discussion? All in favor, raise your hand. Oppos.

Thank you. Thank you. This one so far. Yes. Okay. I'm going to move on to this. Chris instigated this and we were in I wasn't an instigator. Well, no, I think I You need a copy of it. I think the people not the issue and not

we uh from an observation point of view I totally agree with this concept and I've standing on the dock the other on the main pier the other day watching it and somebody trying to use the end of the public float as a loading and unloading and and we got these skiffs that are blowing around the corner and and it's just not fight. And the solution, I don't know who came up with it, me or Chris, but it's was to add a a float, you know, uh, and with no cleats on it so that it would keep those commercial skiffs off the end of the, uh, loading and unloading area.

And through this proposal, suggestions also to we're going to free up some space, do away with some less permits being issued. You have the end of the dock, no time limit. There's no 20 minutes because that turns into an hour. There should be no unattended vessel. So you have to be there on your vessel. So this summer, a lot of Sundays, John isn't out a lot. He doesn't get to see it all and he isn't here on the weekends. You could not get into that dock. People left the do their boats end of the dock. There's nowhere to get in. People start using the commercial dock, which isn't labeled. They start tying up there. It just cascades. And it was just a really, really bad situation. It's the worst I've ever seen at that area. You don't have assistant harbor master that's here during the weekend. We do.

Yeah. And we have kids that monitor the dock supposed to every half hour on the hour. Yep. Right. So there's proposals putting the TV down there and have a camera on it at all times so they can sit and look and have reported time frames of when they're there or not. Well, the main the main issue is that it it gets abused and uh it's just not right because Oh, I I totally agree with the front of the dock. So, how does this resolve it? That's what I want to understand.

On this, you can't tie up. So, right, what happens now if people come in the skiffs, they swing over or they tie up right here and then you have a 14oot skiff blocking the access to the end of this pickup and drop off. Oh yeah. So no one can get in. You have people you want to pick up in your boat, right? And it and do it says 20 minutes. I understand. But this way the skiffs can't come past this and you can't tie up to any point of it. And you're also extending this by six foot six feet. So you have a larger boat that comes in and give them a little more room and they don't have to push out here. And a lot of times people aren't courteous and leave the bow of the boat or the stern overhang there. And um

well and doing away with it. There was a few boats that would be tied here for four hours. Well, they're never just there for four hours. They get left and they're commuters. So doing away with that and then liming it to I said 15 to 18 foot permits for residents first. You have 30 permits down there right now. You can't fit 30 boats in there. So where So where these are the like the 18footers that are like over behind Dick Wolf's boats? No, no. This is right down here on No, no, no, no. I understand where this war where this float is. I'm asking, are you suggesting that instead we take the 18 foot boats, those boats that are behind wherever they are at the north dock and move them over here? No. No. Okay. So, why are you saying 18t boats here?

Must do away with them. There's a small section of So there So there'll be no boats there. There's a sign that says from here on out right now. All right. Right now there's a sign here. Right. It says from this sign to the end of the dock, you can tie up a 17 foot boat for up to four hours. I got it. Okay. All right. Now I understand. So, but we're issuing 30 permits for here that 30 skiffs tied up. Can't fit in here anyway. I understand. So, you want to just do away with that little fits about two fit about two 17 foot boats that get left there all day. Okay, I got you. I understand.

I do think I was just down there and I think I counted 22 skips. So pretty good. I think we could fit 20. My handwriting my drawing is on. That's why I want to get a diagram. Don't know. I mean, I know there's one there just cuz I recognize it doesn't have a permit. It's all a chance to look at all this. I understand it. Yeah. So, what do you think about it, General? I think the thing they're proposing at the end would keep the dinghy from swinging out around, which is the biggest problem. Yeah. Because it will block access to the end of the public dock. Yeah. So there's no way to tie like there's no like you have the cleat there. Yes, there'll be no cleats on this thing right here

on the extension. On the extension so nobody like they got to be able Yeah, I understand. I thought you were going to take away. So you're okay with that? What about the 4hour 17T boat thing? You're removing uh I don't Is it in Is there in our ordinance? Yeah, it is. I think so. It's gonna have to be an ordinance change. I think it is potentially in there. Uh but from a management of boats, is this okay or Oh, it will be uh it'll take some adjustment. Take some adjustment. Take more signage

using the system. That's where we're trying to come at. It's also not enforced once again. Yeah. Both sit there and they're not tagged. John three years and the enforcement hasn't happened. That's why I talked to Rick and this why punishes. Why not get enforcement first and then see how it works? Because we've asked them for three years and they haven't. It is that marina down there is the nightmare. Okay. I hired nine kids every year to run that thing 24 hours a day, seven days a week. There's a lot more going on that is more important. And that's where I disagree with you, John. Everything is important down there. It is. It's not important.

It is lowerhanging fruit on my list of stuff that needs to be done down there. So, it doesn't get the attention that it probably needs. So, then we eliminate it. And And I'm not 100% agreeing that we should eliminate it because I think it's an important service that we are offering.

I agree. So, I'm not blindly saying make it go away, and I haven't said I agreed with it, but something needs to happen with it, and it it is it's on the lower hanging fruit of stuff that needs to be taken care of on a daily basis. I'm going to add to this that there have been some changes in the use of this area mainly because of the lobster buyers in Southwest Harbor and Bass Harbor and Bar Harbor have businesses that have given up. It's put more and more pressure on Northeast Harbor and and I don't know if I'd agree with that.

Well, I do because of the the Bahava boats that are in here fishing out of our town. Well, they're they've been coming here to this dock in the winter time for we haven't fished out of here in the summer. No, but there's no harbor fishing here in the summer. The other there's another issue, too, and it's the cranberry isles. Yes.

And we're getting a lot of lot more pressure from them. So, this is a way to address some of the problems. We're not going to solve it 100%. But, it's going to help. So one increase and I want to discuss this in another meeting is we're we are a steal to work out of this. We we're overaccommodating. We're letting there's too many commercial usage that aren't getting built correctly and and not being accounted for and it's an easy place with not a lot of rules to come do what you want. And that's some of the influx we've seen. Yeah. But we have seen a a huge increase. I

there is, but I think it's I mean I don't think it has to do anything with sellers, but I just think there boats here, but you have more local people using it as well. There's still more pressure and and we have to accommodate the commercial activity, the yachtsmen, the the the residents of the town, and we're doing the best we can down there. I really know, but there's a lot of pressure on it. And the signage, that's a basic thing that we have to do. If you can't look at where you're going to tie up and know what you're allowed to do, you know, I I I will say that on where I tie my skiff on the north dock was a lot better this summer. Didn't look that crowded this year.

Well, it was never made. I will speak well of John. I mean, I sent him one picture and the boat was gone. There's two big Florida boats. They come I mean, I don't know where they come from, but they show up. That's another issue when you get a a 60s something foot boat that rents a moing from us that has a tender that's bigger than 14 ft. That's why we have a use. I know, but the launch doesn't run 24 hours a day. They shouldn't come in and tie up. I'm just saying it's down here. They want people to use the 17 foot. They cram in commuter boats. You know what I mean? And they abuse it. They're never there for four hours. Mhm.

You can't even force ones that have stickers to even be there. So, we can't I mean, we're trying to That's all trying to make it easier and less for you and have a TV on it watching it right from the office. There's a camera that watches the public dock. Not for the kids that are writing the tickets that can see it there. You have a small screen in your office. They need to sit there. The people that are out there doing the rounds need to come in the office and be able to When everything's working correctly, they're supposed to go down to that dock every half hour and and survey the boats. You have staffing issues. They don't. There was a red skiff down there for a week. I had to call Jenny. A red inflatable registered out of New York. So a whole week went by. No ticket, no nothing. Done. Well, something with your nine help.

Probably only looking at the twohour and the 15 minute. They probably weren't looking at the we'd asked for accounted for. I mean over meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting. There's one down there. I will say there's a white Boston wher with a 30 horsepower tied on the underneath the bridge going down to to the north slips. The kelp on it is this long. It's been it was there all last spring. It hasn't moved. I think it's been abandoned because it's been there for over a year. So, I was going to bring it up anyway. You might want to run the numbers on it to see what you know. Okay guys, I I think

but I will say it's it was been a lot better again on the north side. I I think we let's follow through with this proposal uh get this flo bill built and attach certainly by next summer. We need a motion to drop the proposal suggestions as presented. Understanding we'll have to have an ordinance change as as a recommendation. I don't know if this can be the exact design or not. Okay. Well, I except I haven't I don't feel we've decided on the 17 foots staying or going. Well, let's take let's take it one issue at a Yeah, exactly. One issue at a time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, can we make some votes? Like, what about the signage to be done? Can we get that started? Everyone agree that should be done. I'm going to start with the float.

Yeah. I'll make a motion that we build the float and put it down there as soon as possible. Or is it Sure. Second that. Oh moved and seconded that we build and install this float ASAP. All in favor? I opposed. Carried. Next motion. I'll make a motion that we make the eastern end loading and unloading with no no uh tie up and no unattended boats there. No unattended boats. No. Be able to tie the boat. Yes. Well, yeah. No permanent type, but it has to be attended, right? Is that is that a Wait, wait, wait, hold on a second.

How it needs No, we need to say two things. Okay. No, because what happens if someone wants to sit there? Oh, because it says loading online. I know, but if they're sitting there just having a picnic, they're attending their boat. No, for loading and unloading. Okay. Oh, okay. Got it. There's no tying up to happen. I didn't hear the unloading and unloading as part of it. I heard it. Yeah. Did it now? Yes. I want to move on with this motion. Second. I seconded it. Need a vote. Okay. All in favor raise your hand. I oppose question. Is that an ordinance change? No.

No, that's not in there. It just has a designation on it. management change. That's been the question. Sometimes we do say it in the ordinance. I don't know. No, on some of them I think. All right. It's just the dinghy stuff. Yeah, that's in the on the public vote. 8.4. Got it. Okay. Let's go to the dinghy number. Do you want to skip the park area with longerlasting paint signage visible approaching vessels all year or do you want to read it over again?

Park designated area with longerlasting paint slash signage visible to approaching vessels all year to be done this fall. It was done on the vertical sides of previous floats. So when you're approaching it, it says 2hour upgrading the signage. better signing fil. They're just half spray painted on the top. It wears off. So you on the side approaching vessels know what they're allowed to do when they come in. We have a motion second. All in favor raise your hand. I oppose. Carried. I have a discussion point on you.

Go ahead. Oh, a while ago when we asked the uh the public works department to make a sign for the farmers market parking when we were doing all the parking stuff, they made a really narrow sign. It was almost like a street sign and they wrote whatever they want. John says they can make whatever they want on those signs. Could we make though like could we have signs that say two-hour parking like of that and just drill them right in? Good. It's a suggestion on the vertical side. Yeah. On the vertical side, not on on the top. You could long as it's big enough to read. Well, I mean, it's a street sign, you know. It's it's the same like it's like, you know, whatever street we have here, you know.

Yeah. I think there is a length limit what they can do, but but I mean do multiples on the end there over a 20 foot section. I also thought it'd be fun to watch John or the crew hang upside down paint because you run the risk of scratching your boat and then you have to your bumpers out. Well, the problem is down there that float really should have a tow hard tow rail on it. It should have a tow because it has the plate steel plates on the outside. Yeah, but it doesn't. It It doesn't. But so people should be using their bumpers under Yeah, I understand. But they should. It's also something that's harder to maintain. I think painting painting is I Okay. I thought it was less I thought it's

I think painting is more whatever you guys want. Do does have a skirting around it. People look a wood skirting, but the commercial dock does not. Okay. Sorry to We add skirting or whatever you want to call it. I think if you want to vote, you should have fenders in my opinion. By uh recommendations are not the best answer. John figure it out. I was just asking you as an alternative with me, but I'd rather not see a vote. That Yeah, that makes total sense to me. Do whatever John thinks is best. Like to skip over the tie up the Well, we should change because we'll take time.

No, I don't. I thought you said let's skip over that and go to the He went back. Okay. No, now bring that up. I make a motion that we discontinue tie up for 17 folk vessels and under for four hours adjacent to the commercial skip tie up. Second. I got my eyes ready to two hours. I think it's a 30 extended and if it was enforced it would be and they're already going to eliminate a bunch of uh commercial use. Talk to the proponent of the of the suggestion. So we're we're not even a force in the two hours. We're wait hold on a second. And they and if it was two hours it could go park on the other side,

right? But what Yeah. So what's the advantage of of two? Like if we did change it to two hours because I'm thinking it's easier for all those workers, you know, your staff to just check those for two hours like everything else. And they've been checking the other ones, right? Yeah. But they're not they're mixed in with skiffs. The commercial skiffs mingle in with them. It's not an isolated little spot for them. So, well, there actually land them right there on the north side. Yeah, but they all there isn't enough room. It's not a line. It doesn't say it just says you may park here. It doesn't say one can park. There's a sign with an arrow. It says from here to the end you can park 17 and under for four hours.

So, just like in a street, but but in here it says and commercial dingies. So, we're already issuing too many permits as it is. Maybe that's the problem is and we're going to address that. We're going to address that. But you're not in the ordinance it says that that you can have one section. You can have 17 foot boats and commercial skiing. So, listen, I'm not trying to fight for it or against it. I'm just trying to understand like what's going on here. Like John's saying and and Jim are saying that aside from the enforcement, they're saying that it's like a service that people are to cranberry, not just whomever. Not that. Yeah. Whomever. Whomever.

But local boats aren't using it. But but we're not we're not regulating who's using it at the moment. Okay. So like So we give them on the other side of the float. They have all the time to tie up like everyone else. Is that two hours down or is it Yes. Well, I Yeah, I have no issue with like that, but it seems like what was the initial purpose of that then? It seems like the initial purpose was put the small boats someplace over here so the big boats have room here. Well, it used to be 19 foot over there and we changed that because Oh, yeah. to try to shrink it a while ago and went to 17t.

And by doing with this adding this in there, you're taking one of the spots out. We should keep everything at two hours so it's all the same by adding what in the end. You're taking up some space. We're taking up three feet apparently. Three feet. Yeah. And that if you think of the swing radius of it up one boat get abused. What was that? Why was that designated that way to begin with? Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good question. It's been like that the entire time I've worked down here. I I assume it was to maybe lessen the burden on the side of the public dock and it was a courtesy to mostly to the Cranberry Islands. Well, and he rents if it's not busy down here, he'll rent you a spot. I mean, if that's the reality that it was a currency to the Cranberry Isles, I'm not opposed to if the commercial fishermen here need it more, then we should allow our commercial fishermen who are paying everything is expanded. I mean, more use, not just this is going to put more pressure on the other side and that's already I'd like to bring that up. It's going to put pressure on the other side.

Yeah. You know, that I happen to use already. It's no different than if we limit the number of commercial permits that are allowed to tie up to that. It's going to put more pressure on the other ding to eat. Right. Right. Right. I understand. Right. Everyone has to go somewhere. Yes. And this is not a a problem that's just for northeast arbor. It's the probably the entire coast of the United States and almost every coast in the world. And this is only

dingy problem is is just set and so of it right after day two maritime both from cranberry island they were there over a week had a sister master I sent an email out Jeff boat hey these boats are here guess what he went down ticketed him or called them and they disappeared but the the ordinance is limited to two boats or okay everybody I think we're we a motion on the thing. Yeah, I don't think that's how many. Okay. No, between here and here. That's all it says.

Um, all valid points, but we just cannot sit here and argue like this without forward. So, we're going to have a motion. The motion. I second it already. What was the motion again? Repeat your motion. Discontinued tie up for 17t vessels and under for 4 hours adjacent to commercial skiff tie up. Did you confirm whether that was in or would require an ordinance change? So, we've got plenty of time to have more discussion about that particular one going forward if we want. Correct. I'd like to see two hours and and if we build that other thing and get it in there, maybe we see how that affects the whole situation as well. We have a motion to

just continue the tie up. I'm going to ask for a vote on this if we have if we have an amendment a time. Well, we can't ordinance change. So, we're going to have to bring this back up. Yeah, we're going to we'll have to rewrite it or delete it from table it for the next meeting or or a motion to move forward on it. We have a motion anyways. We haven't voted

going forward in our meetings. Our November is going to be kind of an open meeting for us to do almost anything we want to do because there's going to be really very little everything's going to be in progress on the engineering. We're not going to really see that again in after October until December. So that's something you folks would start thinking about of ordinance stuff that you'd like to discuss. We bring them up at our next meeting and then we can tackle them at our November meeting. Drizzle, you withdrawing your motion or you keeping your motion? I I don't know which way is the pressure going to push it forward then discuss the change. Make

I suggest or make a motion within the motion that we table it. He has to withdraw his motion. Well, I'll withdraw my motion then discuss it at the next and then I'll second that. Okay. So motion by black, motion withdrawn. Motion by Black to discuss number four at November meeting. Yes. Or maybe October. Do we need to put it on October? We can if we can discuss it again. But November I think we can get into the meat of So November seconded by Cameron Wings. Correct. Yep. All right. Number five.

Number five. limit the commercial skip permits to a total of 15 to 18 with priority going to residential resident commercial use and we can make a motion and then after it's second to discuss this and change it if we'd like to I'd like to have the motion I'll make a motion I'll second that okay it's open for discussion can I point out something that uh so that I'm thinking commercial was just fisherman but it's also the brick savage how are years ago I had to have this same kite and there's more than one way to earn you living on the water other than lobster. That's why some commercial No, I agree that but they would automatically

We have more than 18 commercial operators in our harbor. How do we accommodate them getting to their boat? Well, that was my question. But part of the problem is which you guys don't see and can't unless you live down there is that many of these are were given airway and some of them are commuter vessels. They don't they're not actually they were issued permits and they're not actually fishing out of the harbor. They use them to commute to islands or other places and there is enough room that they could go some go over to the other side. Oh great thanks. What's the public? Yeah, everyone has and I had to take my boat out of there as it is. It's so much pressure on the public side.

Well, that's it's not as bad as this one and they're not we don't have that. Some of these permits are people aren't actually active in the harbor. They're using the boats to to to like run back and forth. I think we could do more than 18 down there. Like I said, there was 22 down there. Depends on how wide they are. Well, that's true. But I mean, I was just down there and counted. I think 22 15 to 18 was when I went down and measured with the width of the Carolinas with less swing radius coming down. Okay. Cuz the movement, right? So if you put them all side by side, measure the width coming down across. We'll say five feet. You know what I mean?

Yeah. But they all want to be on that north end. So what do you Well, they they don't. And like one of those was like we anyways. I know. So there's quite a few that aren't Carolinas that take up a lot less space. I was just those numbers were on and leaving enough. You just was counting. How many did you say you counted? I thought 22. But And how was there space for any others? They looked pretty full and they were kind of I mean they weren't on the other side, but they were right. Probably 20 because we're going to give away three feet of it to this dock. And we have 30 permits out I think. So, I think I ordered 30 stickers this year. No, that that's a lot.

And I may have one or two stickers that didn't get handed and I'm not going to go over here cuz we won't even qualify and they won't do it. You know, we should definitely try at least 20 then. You got 30 people that are going to try to be there. So, you're changing the motion to 20, correct? Yes. Not agreeable with everyone. Yep. Well, just a question. So, we're going to issue more commercial potential tieups than we have space for. Is that correct? No. No. No. So, I I calculated they put the pressure on the public dock which is across the way. So, that now the public won't be able permits that I gave away this year

and they all commercial operators out of the tarp. Cut out the tar. So, you permit cut 10 permits. All right. So, commercial skip permits are issued to whom? Commercial operators. Commercial fishermen. Commercial. Wait, wait, wait, hold on a second. So, if I'm a commercial fisherman in Searsport, I can get one if I ask you for one. No, you'd have as right now. Yes, because there is some issue that priority go into resident commercial use. It says right there. Let's Let's not go to CS Point. Let's just keep it in town. I'm just trying to understand it. You guys have found something.

So there's really two seasons in the winter. It kind of really peters out because most of the guys come into the slips. So in the winter time there may be four to six boats down there. But summertime when all of the It's okay. Don't don't explain anymore. So some of the permits are issued by air. Some of the permits were issued by error and weren't and they look back and say that person probably shouldn't have got don't talk to me about it's okay well I don't I'm happy to hear an understanding of it you need to be a moing owner to get a commercial or a moing like on a moing

you need to show that you have a commercial use that is reliant on northeast arbor is the way it's been I've got a list down there that's been the same list that we've been working since I started down there. It has been adjusted. Some names have been scratched out. Some names have been put back and it's the same list that I work. So most of the guys come in and say Chris comes in and I go, you had number four is yours and I give it to him. But there's always been six or eight more permits than what I had names for. So if somebody comes in and rambles one of my kids and they give him a sticker, the stickers go written down for qualifications that that to do to who receives one.

Well, for the most part, the majority of them that are getting stickers are people that have been getting them for years going back 15 or 20 years or more. and we give them the same sticker number every year, but we're going to have to scrutinize it. Uh, obviously we're going to do preference to residents. I've heard that mentioned. Um, or but if somebody's renting a like, aren't there Bar Harbor guys that rent moorings and stuff? There are. And you know, they say, "Hey, I'm here. I'm renting a moing from you. I need a spot for my commercial dingy." They they most definitely should get one

unless unless all the stickers have been given out. Yeah. And that's the way it was this year once they all were given out. It was John, this is my point. It seems unfair to ask some to offer someone a mooring or whatever commercial opportunity you're offering them, but no way to travel to and from their boat. Sure. But

so so maybe we need to offer less commercial moorings or commercial opportunities for these people if there aren't enough skiff openings. That's that's what I'm trying to say. Like one or the other has to give, right? Because you can't keep one attic. I guess we can't give away more than what we have. But, you know, there may be more commercial operators that have moorings in Northeast Harbor than those 20 spots will allow for it now. And so, I'm saying that doesn't seem right. They can go over to the north side, too. No, they can't.

They They can't. There's There's always the other That's full, Rick. You just said it was a lot better this year. It was, but it was full. Well, they can go to the north side. It's not. So, it's not just res. There's nothing restricting that. As long as you're is supposed to be your renting or have a moing in the harbor, you have access to the public. Yeah. I mean, that seems reasonable like they have an alternative that is always available. Not the best, but it is an alternative, right? And some of them use it. Anyways, they don't bother because their mooring may be on that side and it's easier for them

and I like that. But they've still got permit just to maintain the permit to park. But probably historically, no, they don't north side has been a problem for dingy tie up too. Sure. Over. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. I get it. Yeah. So, we're just pushing about 10 boats over there. bumped into the he he he bought a skiff that went pays to I know that shouldn't have done that commercial another skiff because he do not label commercial I know you want to be nice to him but that what that mean looks like something you have a public dock and you have a commercial well

but the overflow commercial goes to public because they got to get to their boats yeah but we don't the amount amount of permits that we have that got issued. There wasn't that many commercial vessels that they're servicing. All All I was concerned with was the fact that if we're offering commercial moorings or floats or whatever that they had an opportunity to put a dinghy someplace on our marina. They do.

And they do. So it doesn't So it doesn't If you guys want to change it to 20 or that's fine. I don't have it. I just needed to understand that there's a place for what we're offering for commercial people. Thanks. And some commercial people uh trailer bring their boats trailered out back and forth trailer so they can park there. So the so in the future the idea would be if after you give out the 20 to whoever you know rise to the top of the priority then you'd just say to the rest of the people we don't have commercial dingy permits for you just have to park over here and they wouldn't actually get any kind of sticker. No.

Yeah. Okay. I think I mean I would definitely be open to if we have 20 there and there's room for three more have three more. You know what I mean? We can readjust if we get we can accommodate three or four more. I understand. I'm just trying to make sure that people who pay to be on a commercial there's four places. There's two floors. But as someone who uses that north slip, if we if we they're going to allow more commercial people and we don't have room for them to park and it's already crowded on the north. So you're not solving. You know, you limit the commercial people though. That's just what that for people. No, quit renting out town floats.

That kind of stuff. They could rent a more. You know what I mean? Oh, jeez. You're telling me you don't have landing rights anymore. So then there's those on the other side. I mean, it doesn't affect me. I know. But if they come in, you push people out of there, it's affecting. No, I understand. One place, they're going somewhere I did say it was better, but that's because a lot of people park the inside of where people are paying money to park. But you also, Jim, have people that don't have a moing that are using that tie up for a place. That's where they store their boat with no fee and that's how they commute. They go for boat rides, whatever. And that's a problem that should will have to also be addressed.

That's why I said a number of years. I mean, look at the things with the things we make. It's baby steps. We get something accomplished. We're trying to focus on one and then we'll have to if that's a problem readjust with that. So what they do in southwest if you're going to put a skiff in the on the public float there you got to buy a permit and that's something we can adjust. We're just trying to one y maybe this whole issue needs our more attention in the future. I think Rick has the right idea. An ice pick would take care of a lot of these rubber, right?

Let's go with a 20 on on the five. We'll give it a whirl. Sure. We know that um we're not solving the issue 100%. And that's not an ordinance anyway. So, it's a correct. So, we could change that anytime very quickly in a meeting. Yep. All in favor, raise your hand. I I opposed carried. And item six is have the TV in the harbor masses office into the What channel do you guys like? Weather channel mostly. Most of the time it's not on at all. This might be more entertaining with camera. And this would also show the launching ramp. I hear you. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. This is serious business.

Motion to approve. Second. All in favor raise your hand or open discussion. We're voting. Thank you. Okay. Motion to adjourn. Thank you everybody. Second. Uh looks like our October meeting could be interesting too. Okay. Always interesting. Right here. Did you guys adjourn? Yeah. Motion to adjurnn. Yes. Second. All in favor raise your hand. Yep. Thank you.