Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good evening and welcome to the study session of the City Council of the City of Moreno Valley. I now call this meeting to order on May 12 at 6PM. Would any of my colleagues like to lead us in the pledge this evening?

I'll do it.

Council members Delgado will lead us in the pledge.

Please stand if you can and join me in the pledge of allegiance. Place your right hand over your heart. Ready? Begin. I pledge allegiance

to the flag of The United States Of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty.

Thank you, council member. And next up, item c, roll call, madam clerk. I'll turn it over to you.

Thank you, mayor. Council member Bernard? Here. Council member Delgado?

Here, ma'am.

Council member Bacca Santa Cruz?

Here.

Mayor Pro Tem Gonzales?

Here.

And mayor Cabrera?

Here.

Thank you.

Thank you. Next, D, staff introductions, please.

Patty Rodriguez, city clerk.

Steven Catania, city attorney.

Sonia Gomez, senior deputy city clerk.

Lana Jimenez, assistant city manager of administration.

Felicia London, chief financial officer, city treasurer.

Sean Kelleher, Assistant City Manager Development.

Angelica Fraustelubo, Community Development Director.

Kyle Worsinski, Economic Development Director.

Melissa Walker, Director of Public Works. Jeremy Bobnik, Director of Parks and Community Services.

Robert Cardenas, Human Resources Director. Jesse Park, Fire Chief.

Sarah Mack, Chief of Police.

Thank you team. It's always a pleasure to be here in the chamber to conduct the people's business. And next is item e, public comments on matters that are on the agenda only. We do only have one item on today's agenda. And a friendly reminder that we do offer language translation services through a free app called Wordly.

The app automatically translates a variety of languages into English and vice versa. For the visually impaired, please use your earphones or earbuds. And if you do not have any, please let the city clerk staff know, and we will gladly let you borrow some for this meeting. Finally, in order to preserve the meeting decorum, council and staff will not respond during public comments. Our first and only order of business for today under item f is f one promoting civility, decorum, and effective public participation in public meetings and we will hand it over to our city attorney and our city clerk for a presentation.

Thank you, Mayor. Mayor.

That's why I'm asking us. Presentation. That's the only reason I ask you.

Yeah. No. We're we're following the script here. So, yeah, mister city attorney, madam clerk, we'll turn it over to you.

Thank you, mayor and members of the council. So, let me. So, this presentation will be in both between the city attorney and myself. Myself. And the title of it is promoting civility decorum and effective public participation in public meetings.

And the objective objectives for today are tonight, we just want to highlight four key elements of council meeting decorum and how they directly connect to the role of the city clerk. So this is my portion. First, conducting an orderly proceedings. Decorum ensures that meetings run-in an organized manner where everyone is heard appropriately. The city clerk plays a key role in supporting this by managing speaker's lips, tracking time, and helping maintain the structure of the meeting.

Second, transparency and public trust. Clear and consistent decorum practices ensure meetings are open, accountable and properly documented. As the official record keeper, the City Clerk prepares agendas, record minutes and preserves the integrity of all official actions. Third, equal opportunity for participation. Decorum ensures that both council members and the public have a fair and structured chance to speak.

The city clerk helps facilitate this process in accordance with legal requirements, ensuring fairness and consistency throughout the meeting. And lastly, decorum helps ensure meetings remain professional, respectful, and welcoming to all members of our community. So together, these elements support an effective, transparent, and trusted local government process anchored in the work of the city clerk. Thank you and I will now pass it on to the city attorney.

Thank you, madam clerk. Before I begin, I like to point out what this is not about. And this is not about any particular individuals. It's not about any particular circumstances. It's not about any particular issues that have been brought before the council.

And basically, it is just a discussion about issues regarding civility, decorum, and effective public participation as I derived from various sources, including the Institute of Local Government and the League of California Cities. So I'm essentially gonna run through definitions that I've seen come across in these various, authorities. But I think what we should start with is what is civility? Now in the context of one one of the things I should point out is that oftentimes I have discussions with various state authorities and these state authorities or agencies oftentimes have enforcement authority against the city. And oftentimes they offer suggestions on how we should conduct our meetings or how we should get certain information across to the public.

And I always remind them that with city councils, we are at the front line of local democracy. It's not as easy as just dictating from Sacramento as to how we should act, how we should treat the public, how we should get information, or how we should just engage with the public. And so in order to, you know, be on that front line of democracy, we have to have some acknowledgment or mutual understanding of the rules of procedure and rules of civility that come into play. And all that involves understanding and genuine understanding and respect for one another. So what is civility?

Well, I found out from some of these authorities that in the context of a democratic debate, civility is really simply about how we treat each other. That's what it really boils down to. But I've also seen in some of these authorities that they talk about a balance of values when it comes to civility, and that balance of values includes balancing the value of respect for those who have different opinions than we do. Value and we weigh that against the value of free expression, which in a lot of cases can be very active and lively. That's why I'm sitting next to her and I still can't do it.

So why should we care about civility? Well, in these various sources, they talk about the reasons why civility is important. And these are the common objectives or the common reasons why we should be concerned about civility in the context of public meetings. It promotes broader civic engagement. I think when people see that we are having civil discussion in a public setting, that encourages people to get involved.

It promotes diversity of views. It it promotes creative thinking, promotes problem solving, and all this leads up to promoting or resulting in rational decision making. Next. What was interesting, when I was looking into what health, civility is defined, I stumbled across some information about, is there a case for incivility? And I thought to myself, oh, boy.

You know, I don't wanna talk about that because I don't want it to come across as encouraging anyone to not be civil in the context of our meetings. But I think there was some merit to it. So the case against civility is, and this comes from the Institute of Local Government in an article they titled Promoting Civility at Public Meetings. And it provides that while civility is an indispensable prerequisite to a democratic society, it can also reinforce the status quo in terms of power relationships. The example they use is that at one time in our history, you know, women were deemed to violate norms of civility simply by just engaging in any form of political activity.

At that time, there simply was no other way for women of that part of our history to advance their interests through politics in what was deemed to be civil at that time. And so they took to the streets. They became loud. They marched around with protest signs, and that was looked and viewed upon as being in civil behavior. And we've seen the same in our history with respect to other disenfranchised groups, and we're seeing a lot more of that happening now out on the streets of this country, where we're seeing people who are protesting against certain government actions and are deemed to be engaged in uncivil behavior.

So but we still have an interest in promoting civility, and we should always have an interest in promoting civility in the context of public decision making. But in order to promote civility, I think it's important that we also understand why some don't come across as being civil from our perspective. And I think the questions that should prompt us to ask ourselves is that do they are they acting in this matter or expressing themselves in this particular manner because they feel excluded from the decision making process? And if that's the case, then one of the possible solutions, and I'm not going to give specific solutions here, but one of the possible solution is, well, maybe we should encourage more inclusion in some way. Do they believe that they have been deprived of relevant information?

Well, the easy solution is provide easier access to information. Do they express where am I? That looks different from mine. I'll just go for this. Do they express an extraordinary level of compassion about a certain issue?

Well, the solution is try to understand the source of that compassion. The bottom line is I think that when we, witness persons, whether it's in the context of a council meeting or whether it's just in, you know, in your normal social life, people who are very compassionate about something and express themselves in a manner that we're not used to because we all have different experiences in life, I think it's important when we come across that that we try to segregate that compassion from understanding or at least appreciating the fact that they've shown up and expressed themselves about a particular issue of importance to whether it's a council or whether it's in front of any of our commissions. So at the same time that we have people who show up who are very compassionate about how they express themselves about a particular issue, I think sometimes we need to somehow try to look beyond that by understanding why they are like that. And it doesn't necessarily mean you have it justifies their actions or their conduct. I think understanding why is part of the process of figuring out what they're trying to communicate to us.

And we should also understand and appreciate the fact that some of these very compassionate people are showing up and participating in the process. So let's move on to the second component of this presentation, and that is decorum. So what is decorum? Now decorum is different than civility in that decorum's based on actual documents. It's based on actual practices.

It's based on notions of just common courtesy. And the re and the so decorum comes up in the form of of our formal rules, whether it's the Brown Act, whether it's our city council rules of procedure that the city council has adopted. It comes from that context. It comes up in the context. It comes up in the context of our our practices or normal practices that we engage in, from meeting to meeting, and it all boils down to making sure that there's common courtesy shared amongst all the people in the same room who are debating or discussing a particular issue.

And this all and the purpose of decorum is to ensure that there's our proceedings are conducted orderly and they're productive. And the objective of all these rules of decorum is to maintain a dignifying atmosphere in the context of this in in this what goes on in this room because, again, we are the front line of the front lines of our democracy here. And it's important for to advance our democratic ideals of this country by ensuring that there is proper decorum that is being practiced in this front room here, at at the front lines of our democracy. And so by maintaining this dignified atmosphere, it is it is not only good for us as staff, it's good for you as councils, the elected officials, and it's also good for the public. So everybody benefits from following the rules of decorum.

Key elements of decorum, and I when I talk about key elements of decorum, what I mean here is that all of these policies, these rules, these regulations, these procedures that we have in place, and our practices that we follow, they should all be based on or try to promote respect and courtesy. They should always encourage in the context of our council meetings, encourage everyone, including not only the staff, the public, and the council, but everyone who's watching to follow along in the agenda. Our rules and regulations should also ensure that we are administering our speaking procedures in a fair manner and that proper time is provided depending on the context of the particular issue that's being discussed, and imposing time limits so everyone has the, you know, the equal amount of time to express themselves. And here's why decorum matters according to some of these authorities. It supports the purpose of the meeting.

I mean, after all, you guys are everybody's very busy. The public's busy, the staff's busy, counsel, you're all busy, and we need to stay focused during this time period we're here on why we're here. And why we're here is determined by the agenda that your city clerk puts together. And so that's why decorum matters. It's all about making sure that we're here to engage in the business that's identified on your meeting agenda.

And again, like civility, decorum also preserves and promotes the integrity of the public decision making process. And how's it how's it do this? Well, it does this by ensuring by having our rules all ensure that everyone has an equal opportunity to be to speak and to be heard. And that comes with the amount of time that's provided to them on a consistent basis. It also is accomplished by having our rules and regulations maintain a focus.

So all of our important business is conducted efficiently. Our rules and regulations should also be built upon building trust and professionalism in our public decision making process. And on top of that, we should also our decor rules of decor should also ensure that people will feel protected to participate and engage in public participation in our city council meetings. Now, the third component of tonight's discussion is about effective public participation. And I should mention here that effective public participation also requires that public participation be well informed and it also be meaningful.

Why does it matter? Well, why does it matter? Because we're every single decision here I I imagine every single decision that's made from this dais involves tax dollars. Whether it's 1¢ to multimillions of dollars, it involves tax dollars. That's why the Brown Act requires us to make these decisions that involve tax dollars out in the open, with some exceptions.

Also, effective public participation matters because all of your decisions affect people. It affects your constituents in manner that's different from neighbor to neighbor, from individual to individual, and even different, segments of the population of our public are affected differently. Effective public participation matters too because it ensures that, through our rules, through our decorum rules and through civility, it ensures fairness, equity, and transparency, which are the core elements of an effective democracy. Effective public participation matters because it invites constructive criticism and different perspectives, and it all leads to sound sound reasoning, which again leads to rational decision making, which seems to be the objective of all of these different components. Our conclusion here is that we often heard, I'm sure many of you have heard and I've never found this quote anywhere attributed to any particular individual.

I think it's actually paraphrases the an original quote that came out of some place in Germany a long time ago, but right now, it's this that quote has been paraphrased to, meaning that politics is all about the art of compromise. And this kind of brings us back to the these three core principles we talked about, civility, decorum, and effective public participation. And because the core elements of compromise include the willingness to reach mutual concessions or the anticipation to reach mutual concessions, to reach common ground, to encourage active cooperation amongst all interested parties or stakeholders, to encourage open communications, you know, between the public and staff, between the public and the elected officials, between the elected officials and staff. It involves active listening or requires active listening. And, again, sometimes we have to listen to to individuals who who maybe express themselves in a manner that are not consistent with our perceptions of what constitutes civil behavior.

And I think with active listening, we try to listen beyond that compassion sometimes to figure out exactly what they're trying to express. It also involves good faith. Good faith meaning being honest and transparent with what's being represented to the public or what the public is representing to the elected officials, what staff is representing to staff and the public. Another core element of compromise involves creative problem solving. And, again, creative problem solving does not just come out of the blue.

Creative problem solving in the context of public decision making only can occur if we conform with issues of what constitutes common civility and we follow our rules of decorum. I think a core element of compromise involves empathy, And again, that takes us back to trying to understand why some people are a little bit more compassionate or they express themselves in a little bit more compassionate manner than we're used to. And so I think the empathy kind of puts us, you know, makes us stand into their shoes to try to understand why they express themselves in the manner they in which they express themselves. Pragmatism is important. We can't be persuaded by the level of compassion that's expressed by various individuals.

That because we have to be very pragmatic with respect to how you apply the rules of engagement and how you, you know, how you make decisions with respect to public tax dollars. An element of compromise, a big part of it is trust building, and that comes with time. You know, as each of you get elected and you're seated in these in your capacity as an elected official, from that day forward, you're engaged in building trust with the with the constituents you represent and also with your staff. And finally, I think one of the major, core elements of compromise is understanding, and that means mutual understanding for where, you know, just understanding, again, why people express themselves the way they express themselves and understanding the root of that compassion when they do express themselves. So that is our study session in a nutshell here.

And so we're open for questions. And, again, I'm not you know, the the purpose of the study session was not to tell anyone how to be civil, tell anyone how to act with the court decorum. It's not it the the purpose, again, was not meant to be critical of anyone, not to be critical of every any situation, but just to kind of, you know, share with you the information I was able to Patty and I were able to discover through these various sources we look we look to to get information about what does civility mean to these authorities and what is the common structure that jurisdictions generally follow to ensure that their decision making process is both respected and under both respected and understood by the public. So that concludes my presentation.

Thank you very much, mister city attorney and madam clerk for the presentation. We will bring it back up to the dais before we go to public comment and I'll look to my colleagues to see if there are any questions at this time. Seeing no questions at this time, we can go ahead and move into public comment before we bring it back up to the dais for any outstanding questions or comments. Madam Clerk, please go ahead and call up our first three speakers.

Thank you, mayor. The first three speakers are Morgan Valle followed by Christopher Baca followed by Bob Palomares.

Good evening.

Hello.

I agree with everything that was said in the presentation. I think decorum and stability is very important. And you guys have a hard job. I don't envy you, and I have no desire to be on city council because I couldn't sit up there and do what you guys do. The people that come up and make comments, sometimes I'm shocked.

These are adults. And the things that people say and the way that they say them is just wild. I would like to see a rule in place for warnings for when people go over time or when people are shouting from the audience that it's standard across everyone. You get one warning, and then you're out of the meeting because it's like it keeps happening where it's warning, warning, warning, warning, and it's disruptive to the proceedings. So I would like to see some sort of change to the rules of, you know, you get a warning and then it's that's it.

We're not doing this. Well, it's you, so we can, you know, kind of it should be the same across the board. If you're not behaving, you're an adult, you can leave and come back a different day. That being said, if you're asking for decorum from the public, you guys need to be showing that same level of decorum. I don't think I've ever seen any of you be rude to a member of the public.

In the time that I've been participating, I think everyone has been extremely respectful. City staff has been fantastic. But the way that you interact with each other sets the tone in the room. And if you guys are not being civil with each other, it sets the tone for the public of this is how we behave here, and this is how we interact with each other, talking over each other. I'm not gonna look at anyone because I don't wanna you think I'm talking to anyone specific, but eye rolling, shoving away from the desk, you know, little side comments where it's clear that this is like, oh, we're being upset about something.

And I get it. As he said, part of democracy is we're gonna disagree, and you guys are gonna have things that you don't agree on. But maintaining that civility and the decorum and having a productive discussion is so important. And it's good that we have disagreements because democracy doesn't work well when you have a bunch of yes men who just go yes to everything. Having discussions, having pushback, people who are willing to ask the hard questions and that we're not scared to say, no.

We have a problem here. Where's the accountability? You didn't do what you said you were gonna do. That is so important to democracy, but doing it in a way that is civil and promotes democracy and not just, well, she did this and he said that and this person did this, and we're going to talk about things from thirty years ago that don't really have any relevance today. So just keep in mind, if if you're asking us for that decorum, we would like to see that from you guys too. Thank you.

The next two speakers are Christopher Baca followed by Bob Palomares.

Hello, good evening. Again, my comments reflect my own views. They don't represent anybody else's views other than myself. I think this is everything that was said and shown is absolutely wonderful and nice. But like as the last speaker mentioned, what you're saying is one thing, but your actions are something else.

Sometimes you wonder why I come up here and I'm pretty frustrated and I'm pretty irritated at some of the actions from the staff and the inability for the elected officials to do anything about it. I've mentioned many times about some of these illegal actions, some of the lies, some of the stonewalling, lots of actions by the staff, but yet nothing gets done. So therefore, you have the public up here with their grievances, and you get upset. Mr. Mohan gets very upset when we call him out for his lies and his doings.

He has no right doing the things he does, but yet he continues doing them, and we're up here calling you out on this, and nobody does anything about it. It's, you know, what's the point? What is the point of even being up here and calling out what is the what the problems are. It goes in one ear and out the other. We're here talking about the illegal actions from Mr.

Mohan as far as his MOUs as far as sneaking things into the agenda and we call them out I commend the mayor for bringing that last issue out in the open but yet there's a lot more to be done as far as bringing this nonsense out. He has no right doing what he's doing. He needs to be removed immediately or somebody needs to investigate this and we've asked that you correct these actions that you've done as far as having him do things him doing things and you not reporting them. The actions that you directed him to do during the closed sessions there was a reportable action and we've asked that you redo that that that issue and bring that issue back up into the open. Who gave him the authority to do what he did?

Nobody did. But yet nothing's done about it. Yet you complain about the decorum, you complain about that the the methods people come up here and speak but you do nothing you do absolutely nothing but turn a blind eye and do not listen to the community as far as what our grievances are we're fed up as far as these all this nonsense with special interests with all the money that's being poured out to special interests and nothing gets done. What's the point? What's the point of having a city council and a mayor that does absolutely nothing and lets the staff run and do whatever the heck they want without any oversight. They don't have the right to do that.

The next two speakers are Bob Palomaras followed by Fred Banuelos.

Good evening. When people come up here they come up here for every reason that's on the agenda and some are, it's true, more passionate than others because they've been here coming here for years and years and I know this has to apply to the city council. I didn't hear, you know, I heard a little bit of that from one of the speakers but because everything's a reaction to what the city council has on the agenda. You know, there's been a city council member go out there on the lobby and drop F bombs You know, was out there and I felt sorry for the police officer that's sitting out there, you know, because he's listening to it and I'm saying, man, you know, this is a ghetto. So, you know, you have to look at yourself first and what you put on the agenda, what applies and not just something that's favorable to maybe a friend or something that shouldn't even be on there because you caused the ruckus.

So, you know, look at yourself and, you know, because I'm all for this, you know, quorum. It should be like it is right now. This is the way it should be, you know, and I don't blame people from coming up here mad because they know what they're pissed about and so do you. Some people in the public don't. Staff note.

You know, because this country was founded on that. That's the very core of it that we can come up here and address, you know, our government and maybe it's not meant to be that way, but sometimes you push the buttons of people and you know you do. You know? And very unprofessional of the city council to behave in some of the ways that they do. And I know you have to go to ethics classes, but I like to see those grades. Thank you.

The next speaker is Fred Bunuelos followed by Luis Palomares.

Hello everyone. The things that I'm kinda getting taken from this is you wanna get more people to speak, you know, the public, more engagement. For me, I'm kinda wondering why like at this last couple of study sessions, there wasn't anything to click on so I can know what you guys are gonna say beforehand. That way I get a better, more time to prepare to figure out what I'm gonna say. We had the last study session that had to do with our fire and whatever it was, I can't remember now.

But why can't we click on something to know what's happening before I get here? I think I get more engagement for me so I can study, know what to say, do some research, and then continue. My other thing, pet peeve, is acronyms. I don't like when you guys use acronyms. You know for the most part I know what they mean, but if you wanna get more people involved, please have a glossary or something so that people know what you're talking about.

So maybe they'll get a better understanding of what you're talking about and they'll be engaged more. Maybe have a tutorial on like YouTube to explain how this process works so you can get more people involved in here, and not the same people making their comments. Get some fresh blood in here. Get some more people out here to come and not be scared, talk, and know how this is done. Those are my comments. Thank you.

The next speaker is Luis Palomarez.

Really, really, really. Luis Palomarez, community activist. Last time, Shalinda talked about golly, wisdom, words of wisdom, words of stupidity. You know, I can say whatever I want up here. You gotta hold yourself to a higher standard. Not me. I'm an activist. I've been doing this for over thirty years, since Garfield days when there were marching then. So really, really? I mean, decorum, let's talk about decorum. When you stormed, Chelinda stormed out of here like a bat out of hell, went into the foyer here, cussing with a board member Luna out there and using the word of very forward mother effer. Who does that? Really? Really? Come on.

The quorum, really? You're not gonna shut up the community or the pub. You know, I could have this room filled really if I want to. Really, really. Yeah, I am. Maybe I am gonna do that. Well, we know you were com you were talking to one the audience of one, giving your when you were talking about your closing comments on how we should do this, when was all this decided that we gotta put this on the study session? Is this a Brown Act violation? Did you take it up with our city manager, the one that you wanna take to San Jose with you? Oh, you can go to your favorite?

Wow, really, really. Everybody knows it in the room. Is that the decor? And a lot of times here, the mayor also, you know, he got up there one time. He was up there telling you, talking to you down at you. Oh, look at she's emotional. Look at the way she acts. Look at the way she's going out of the room. Oh, really, really, mayor? Come on. You gotta set the tone. You gotta be the example. I don't gotta be anybody's example here. I'm speaking from the heart, and I'm speaking about things I know about. And I'm speaking about all the debt issues that you let go under the carpet.

You know, like the $5,000,000 seed money, $10,000,000 Corey Jackson. Come on. Imagine if we wouldn't have been up here saying something about it and going wild about it. Like they say, we're going great. They're scared to come to the meeting. Really? I talk to people out there in the community too, Shalinda. They don't say this. Keep it up. Keep on going. I'm on a freeway at 07:00. I can be there, but keep on saying what you're saying. But I am glad they're gonna open it up in July, I think, that they can call in because you're gonna have a lot of calls. We'll be here till probably midnight because of all the complaints here. You know? What are you doing in your district? They're calling me, Shalinda, wow. You know, I thought, you know, you said vote for her last time around. You know, she's she's taking care of business. She's no.

You're too busy on the fence. The audience of one, our mayor here. Hey. He got a new girl for your seat or a new guy. He not gonna endorse you, Shalinda. Really, really, he's not. So, you know, good luck on that run. He found somebody else for that seat. Thank you.

The next two speakers are Roy Blackard followed by Jill.

Very interesting this topic comes up at this time. You should have a little history about how this stuff works, called public participation. This is political theater that you're rolling up here. Everybody's playing a role. You got elected.

You guys get paid a very good salary in the well-to-do this. I talked about this a little bit down at the county this morning, but you see the frustration all across the board in every walk of life. That frustration a lot is coming because the public policy that starts here, goes 3,000 miles across this nation to the District of Criminals and all points in between. Mr. Ed says, Be kind.

So I will say this to you, Mr. Ed. Kindly call out his and her and his sidekick over there. When they're doing illegal things or partnering with Cory the Crook Jackson, who funded their campaigns. He who has the gold makes the rules. This is how this stuff goes. This is the reality of how this stuff works. This is where our public policy either works for the people or it doesn't. Far too often, it does not. I will give credit to Shay and Al Baca.

They have called those two out, and don't apologize for telling the truth because it needs to be said. Sometimes it needs to be said forcefully. We only got three minutes or two minutes or one minute to say it. If I talk in my NPR voice, nobody's gonna pay attention. You know, maybe you could learn something from the best in the business you all are ever gonna know.

And if you want this city to work, maybe you'll take advantage of some of the talent level that's in the city that's left. That's up to you. We can have these discussions all you want. But until you put the policy in that are gonna work for this city, you're gonna see what you get. You reap what you sow.

The next speaker is Jill.

Guys, I wasn't gonna talk tonight. But we're talking about being civil, and we're talking about decorum. I think a lot of times the word compassion was used, but I think it was more it should have been passionate, that people, when they are passionate, we have to cut them some grace. We might not understand where their passion is rooted in. But that never gives people the right to speak poorly to other people, to lie about, or to assign motive to other people that you don't know.

You can be as passionate as you want. I don't have to yell. I can rip you guys apart whispering. I think my daughter's back there laughing. I don't I get being passionate. I get losing your temper. I get yelling. It's not effective. So when we're talking about being civil and having decorum, I think we also need to understand that when there are people here and they're nervous about coming up, when it gets to that level of emotion, we're shutting down people. And that's just I don't even know how to say it.

When we let those emotions get way up here, there are people back there that might have something very important to say, and they're going to take their little blue paper and tear it up because they're overwhelmed. And so I know we can't tell people they can't yell. I know that we can't tell people that they have to be a certain way because we do have the freedom of speech. But just gentle reminders that if we're not on topic, if we're getting to the point where we're liable or slandering, there's got to be a way to shut that down. I think you guys are doing an amazing job.

I would not do your job in a million years. It's hard. It's hard to have people just making assumptions about who you are, why you're doing what you're doing, and I appreciate that you guys are dedicated to doing that. There are a lot of us out here in the community that are appreciative, so just tuck that in somewhere safe, and remember that there are people that do appreciate what you guys are all trying to do. Thank you so much.

Mayor, that concludes all the public comments.

Thank you very much to all of our public speakers for joining us this evening. We will bring it back up to the dais for any council questions or comments. I'll look to my colleagues here. Council Member Delgado.

I don't have any questions but I do have a comment. I think one of the first speaker Ms. Morgan said it perfectly it starts up here. So I appreciate you recognizing that and we will do better. This is a great reminder of civility and decorum, so we'll do better.

Mayor Pro Tem, Gonzalez.

I have

a question for Steve. And and I think

you alluded to it in your presentation, Steve, how how to, you know, how do we do better when,

right, we we have very passionate people. Right? And we we're in a democracy, and the public participation is important. But at the same time, certain behavior, right, disrupts meetings. And and and we have to push forward in that context.

And and I think sometimes that's that's some of the frustration, not only amongst us, but amongst some people in the public. Right? Just based on on, right, on on based on your presentation and the experience, how do we get over that that hump, right, that that's illustrated from time to time in our meetings. Right? And I know it's it's just informational item, but, it's a good discussion to have from time to time.

Yeah. The the role that the role that decorum plays in the context of what we're talking about is that, you can't legislate civility, but you can legislate decorum, which is a response to conduct. So that's why our law, and it's very complicated to, you know, to draft laws that have to take into consideration First Amendment rights and and focus primarily just on conduct that interferes with the free flow of information or just, you know, just just the, you know, order of the meeting. So that's why it's important when we talk about civility, we also have to talk about decorum because, again, you don't legislate civility, you don't teach civility, but you regulate conduct through decorum. So when it gets to the point where that certain conduct gets, you know, creates a situation where it becomes disruptive, then you have something in place to place controls on that.

But it's all about conduct and disruption versus the substance or the content of the speech that's being expressed.

And just a follow-up, and do we currently have rules guardrails Yes. Regarding that?

Yes. Yes. And we have those specifically in our policy and it's based on state law, and it provides the mayor as a presiding officer with the, you know, the procedures to follow to clear the room where there's certain conduct that's being expressed or displayed or happening in this room that disrupts the meeting. So we have a set of rules to address that particular issue.

Thank you.

Basically allows the mayor to clear the room upon giving a warning with respect to any conduct that actually have actually disrupts the meeting.

Thank you. And are there any further questions or comments from the council? I do have a couple as well. I don't see any others from my colleagues at this time. To follow-up on that, I think it was the first speaker as well that brought up several great points.

Mean, many of the speakers did, but just one in particular that hoping to get some clarification on is in regards to when meetings or discussions become, you know, a little heated or start going down a path of that's not productive. You you started to talk about it but could you elaborate briefly more on what procedures or authority we as a city have or you know, in my case, as a presiding officer or the council have to de escalate those situations and restore professionalism like warnings and anything above and beyond that.

Yeah. So I I just had that up here and then I switch. But the procedures that need to be followed is that the, there has to be a warning provided. And again, it's all about actual disruption, meaning that if the, it's not based on what they're saying, and it's based on the fact that they're creating a situation that prohibits others from effectively participating in the meeting. And so that's the kind of conduct that's regulated in this regard.

It pertains to people being loud so somebody can't be heard from the speaker's podium, somebody blocking somebody from getting up to the speaker's podium, people shouting out to interrupt your comments or your speeches. You know, so again, it's all based on actual disruption. You have to provide a warning. If they don't comply with the warning, then the mayor can ask the or or bailiff to have the person removed. But it's critical to know that once that actual disruption ceases or the person agrees not to further disrupt, then that person is allowed to come back into the room.

There are circumstances where if we have a group of people who are disrupting the meeting, again, causing actual disruption, the American order the room to be vacated with the exception of media. So media can remain in the room, but once things calm down, then we have to reconvene the meeting and invite those same people back in to the room to participate. Again, we have a set of procedures in place that conforms with the current state law on the issue.

Thank you for expounding on that and as one of the speakers alluded to, well now clearly hearing those rules that we have to abide by especially for disruptions during public comment and things of that nature. You know, think from here on out those are things that we likely will be enforcing more strictly moving forward because there there have been a lot of disruptions in our council meetings. Whether it's from the dais or from members of the public. And from here on out, that's something that in order to maintain the quorum and make sure that we are civil, that's something that will be enforced more strictly moving forward. So thank you for clarifying that for us.

I think in one of the slides, it mentioned the Institute for Local Government. And so I'm curious, you know, if there are any additional governance or civility or conflict resolution, like maybe trainings that could help strengthen communication and professionalism, especially you know between us here you know my colleagues on the council and then you know staff to council as well.

Yes, through the League of California Cities Institute of Local Government and there are a number of other nonprofit organizations that offer that kind of training. Yeah. The challenge for the city council, though, is we also have to comply with the Brown Act. So that that precludes city councils from going off on a retreat and having a meeting that deals with issues of decorum, unless it's structured in a manner where it's clear that there's not gonna be any discussion whatsoever that has anything to do within the subject matter jurisdiction of the council. But I would encourage, and I know you all do this when you go to these conferences, I know that there is ethics training, you're required to take ethics training, but I would keep an eye out for some of the breakout sessions that they have at the league where they have, you know, between sessions, they'll have a breakout session for, you know, for elected officials who have particular concerns about particular issues.

I would encourage you to watch for those breakout sessions at the conferences. They're generally not put on the calendar. Somebody will just come up with the idea during one of the workshops or seminars.

Thank you. And I think Mayor Prozem has another question.

And in in your experience, Steve, and you've worked with different jurisdictions, is there other jurisdiction cities that have more robust decorum policies? Is if that's if that's what they have? Yes. For example,

I I stumbled across numerous.

Can you just provide an example?

Wow.

The names of the cities? How about if I oh, God. I stumbled across a whole bunch of them.

Just an example of the policy

Oh, I think Pleasanton has one that's pretty robust. I think the city of Stockton has some in place. Those are the two that, you know, at the top of my mind, come to my attention because I was like, wow, they have some pretty robust rules there. Whether or not they survived a constitutional challenge, that's a different story. But, yeah, there's a lot of cities out there that have some pretty robust rules with respect to decorum.

Councilmember Rebecca Santa Cruz.

It sounds like this meeting is spinning to, putting rules into place to stifle or to stop, like, public participation or the public lack of civility, it seems like, and that was this meeting is not aimed at anybody. So saying that we're gonna start incorporating rules because of the way people acting and even if we if some people have policies that may be in place Myrna Valley Unified had a policy in place that said, you cannot disparage employees. And that went all the way to court, and it is now precedent setting. Yes. You can.

So there's rules against what people can say. There's slander rules. There's libel. There's hate speech. There are rules, but I am not in favor of putting more rules than that would stipend people from coming, which would have a chilling effect of when people speak or that would limit them from criticizing us, our policies, or how we're spending their money.

We report to the voters. If they wanna There's a speaker speaks, people yelling out thank you, amen after a comment, laughter, we heard that one today, laughter at appropriate moments, supports of mhmm, yes, that's right, or lies, boos and groans, brief snapping and clapping to show support, and holding up small silence silently. All of those are not disruptions, and those are the behaviors that we've been seeing here. I have not seen anybody interrupt well, except for us from up here, interrupt speakers when they're talking or impede the meeting from going forward. Usually, I have to say, well, what was that?

Who said we? It's not stopping the meeting. So there's a big difference between what's impeding the meeting and what isn't. And I didn't think that this topic was about the people coming up and speaking to us because I'm not in favor of limiting their speech.

Mister City Attorney, I think

Oh, I was just gonna mention that there is a there is actually a state law that that allows the public to be critical of our policies, to be critical of and this applies to the staff as well, to be critical of our our our work. There's a state law that provides that we have to accept that and allow that. And I believe the council is aware of that law because we brought that up several occasions. And and as far as what constitutes actual disruption, the way that works is that we see that coming up in case law. So it's going to be, you know, when somebody asks me, well, what's actual disruption?

And my response is, well, it depends on what the court says actual disruption is. So what we may think is actual disruption sometimes may not constitute actual disruption in a legal proceeding. And and again, with respect to the these these policies that we mentioned about these cities that have these robust policies, again, I the caveat is that I cannot guarantee that they're gonna pass constitutional mustard. You know, some of them I saw and I thought, wow. I'm not sure that would pass, you know, get to a court without being struck down.

So anytime there's any, you know, any suggestion that we take into consideration some of those robust policies, we have to go through an analysis to determine whether or not that's gonna open up the door to litigation and liability. So just because they're there doesn't mean they're legal.

Yeah. And, Council Member Delgado.

I just wanna I just wanna reiterate what, one of the speakers said is the apple does not fall far from the tree. So if we are setting a good example for our city on the dais, I think that our public sees our tone and our example and they'll follow along. And I think that's where we start is us up here. Thank you for that, Morgan.

Yeah. And maybe it would be helpful. You don't have to do it now if or if you have a list in front of you that that would work as well. But just going to your point because I agree, right? On the legal side of things, right?

The judicial side of things, really anything could be overturned in court depending on, you know, a judge or the bench in a particular court. You never know, right? Or what path something might take through the judicial process, but if there is, I guess that might be the strongest evidence that we could look to is court precedent, case precedent, and if there is a list of things that the courts have determined are actual disruptions, I think that would help us, as opposed to us going and doing our own research and you know,

There is a list.

Thinking that we know what a disruption might be, but to your point, what would do the courts say, right? Is there a list that maybe you could share with us? Again, it doesn't have to be now unless you have it, but at some point in the near future if maybe you could send it to us that that would

be very helpful. Yeah.

Fortunately, this my annual city attorney's conference is this week. So I will I'm I'm sure an issue like this is probably on our calendar. We always deal with issues of ethics and this issue about disruption comes up often.

And then my my last question before I just kind of conclude with with a comment is, I mean, hopefully, don't have to get to this point, but, have there been other agencies or municipalities like cities that have utilized independent third party facilitators or governance consultants or mediation firms to help build communication, build trust and strengthen working relationships between elected officials and staff? Have there been other cities that have hired third party firms?

Yes. And the and the only precautionary note I'd like to make about that again is about the Brown Act. Because I see lots of jurisdictions trying to do that, and then we find out, oh, no, there's a that creates a brown x issue. And so what I'm seeing in some other jurisdictions is that these these kind of sessions take place actually in an open meeting.

Here, I can solve everybody's problem. And I can be a counselor and a marriage counselor, just be nice to each other. How about that? Final.

Yeah. I mean, so that was all my questions there. I think just in conclusion, I just wanna thank our staff. Thank you city attorney, city clerk, and I know us city managers at a conference but thank you to our city manager and and all of our staff for bringing this item forward. I think this is very helpful for us to you know, get a refresher and also for the public.

I think it's very important and helpful for everybody to just get a refresher on the rules of engagement, rules of procedure here for decorum and civility and council meetings. And know we say it a lot, right, in our closing comments and, you know, in passing and things like that. But like many of my colleagues have said here tonight, it starts with us, right? Setting that example. You know, making sure we're not using profanity, making sure we're not talking down on others, making sure we're not trying to stifle, you know, each other's speech and just being respectful and striving to to set that example.

You know, so just look forward to hopefully, this will improve our council meetings moving forward. Bring a heightened level of professionalism and civility for our all of our council meetings moving forward and again, I just thank our staff for being proactive and bringing this to us. Appreciate it.

Oh, okay.

Council member Bernard.

Yes. City attorney, can you go over the duties of the presiding officer again please? Because I I sometimes feel like that's one of the issues that we do have here. The who the presiding officer is and then also who we would consider as a sergeant of arms to to help enforce those rules.

The top of my head, the presiding officer actually presides over the meetings. Presiding officer presiding over the meetings means just maintaining control and decorum, enforcing the rules of decorum. We have a whole set of rules for the the the the mayor, not only as presiding officer, but just as mayor in general with respect to issues like proclamations, doing presentations, being the spokesperson for the city. But, essentially, what it what at at council meetings, the mayor serves as the presiding officer just maintains decorum.

And who would you consider as sergeant of arms?

I believe our sergeant of arms is we call him the bailiff here. Yeah. I think it's a bailiff. The sergeant at arms is gonna be whoever she designates. Yeah. Basically, that's what it is.

Alright. Thank you. That's all I have, Mayor.

Yeah. Thank you. I think historically, it's been the the deputies that are present in in our council meetings. Just I guess different terms. Surgeon of arms, bailiff that are used throughout history. Are there any further questions or comments from the council? Okay. Seeing no further questions or comments, we will officially adjourn our study session at 07:07PM. Have a good night.