Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Well, I'll call us to order if everyone's ready.

Now that your tardy chairman has arrived, I'll uh go ahead and call us to order. this evening and we'll get started on this what is a little different mission tonight relative to training. So, um should we go ahead and do the pledge of allegiance and so forth or just go into the training session? Okay.

All right. Well, let's go ahead and open in prayer. We'll have a pledge of allegiance and then we'll move forward then. Father, we're thankful to be here together tonight. And I'm thankful for this beautiful day. And I'm thankful for this board. I'm thankful for folks that want to serve the public, that want to serve others uh for others benefit. And we just appreciate always your guidance and direction. In Christ's name, I give thanks. Amen.

Amen. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. I'll skip the opening statement and of course we have no public comment or adjustments to the agenda. Um, so I would ask for a vote on the uh adopting the agenda. So if I could have motion and a second on that, please. So we have a motion from Mr. Mack. Do I have a second?

Second.

We we have a second and uh all in favor. So the agenda is uh adopted as given and approved. How about the uh consideration for the approval of minutes? Do we have a motion and a second on that? We have a motion to accept the minutes as presented. Do I have a second? We have a second from Mr. Mack. Uh all in favor? No business or is there any old business? Okay. Uh new business would be the uh well we don't have new business as a matter of course so we just move to administrative items where you have the planning board training and uh and I pray you all forgive me. It's been a little scattered day for me and it's been a fast-paced agenda in my day since 5:30. So, I may be slightly scattered. So, I'll ask a little pardon for that. Can you hear me now? Is that better? Okay. Um, I will hopefully make this pretty quick and painless. So, why are we here? Um, here's just kind of a list of, um, goals for today, some questions that I hope to answer. Um, and hopefully you will leave here with a plan as far as how to plan for meetings and how to prep for meetings. Um so the goals for this presentation is

for you to understand planning board duties to understand the different roles um and the different types of decisions being made and hopefully improve um not only as a board member but as an advisory board. Um some of the questions that I'll answer are, you know, why this matters procedurally, practically, um conflicts of interest, and then we'll also talk about some permissible and impermissible considerations for decisions. Um and then again, we'll we'll just talk about, you know, best practices for how to prepare for a meeting. So, here are all the various boards that are involved in land use and development for um the town of Moresville. We of course have our planning department. You are the planning board. Um we also have historic preservation commission that deals with um historic landmarks. And then we also have the board of adjustment um that also acts as our watershed review board. And they look at um variances and special use permits. And then of course the final decisions for most things will be made by the board of commissioners. So you as a planning board are an advisory board. Um you provide writen recommendations to the governing board and specifically address the consistency of text amendments with the adopt um with the adopted comprehensive plan. Um you advise on reszoning applications, text amendment concept plans and the governing board is not bound by your recommendation. Um but you do advise them. Um, and very importantly, and we'll talk about this a little bit later, too, the planning board is subject to open meeting rules, and as I'm sure you're already aware, um, to pass, currently the UDO requires an affirmative vote of a majority of the actual membership of the board.

A little bit of background on um, municipal authority and what you can and can't do and what the town can and can't do. So in North Carolina, there is no inherent authority for a local government to act. Meaning every act that the town can make has to be given to it by statute um or a local bill. Um the state legislature ultimately determines what this board and what the town can and can't do. Terms that you should know. Yes. What would be an example of a local bill? What would be?

Well, so local bills would be like special bills. Like for instance, if the town board annexed um property and a property wanted to be deanexed, um we don't actually have the authority to deanex property that's already been brought into the town. So that's something that like a that we would have to go to the state legislature for to get a special bill. Correct. Yes. I will make that more clear because now that I'm hearing that question, I see how that's confusing.

Okay, so um terms that you should know. So annexation is the process by which the town adds land to our jurisdiction and extends services such as sewer, water, fire, and police. Um we only do voluntary annexations and voluntary annexations are generally prohibited. Um the next two terms are terms that I'm sure you're very familiar with. Um the the two types of zonings or resonings. You have conditional in which you can attach conditions to the development. Um these conditions do have to be agreed upon by the owner. Um or we have conventional or byite zoning. Um and that's where it is a base district and you have a list of permitted uses. Um and there's really no conditions that go with the zoning. dwelling units per acre. Um this is the description of density allowed in a particular district. Extr territorial jurisdiction. Um these are the areas beyond the town limits where the town can extend its zoning and development authority. Um we can't extend all of our authorities. So for instance, there might be um some ordinances in our town code. Um we would not be able to extend our jurisdiction to ETJ um for for those particular ordinances, but for the purpose of the UDO, we can sorry and then the one Moresville comprehensive land use plan. Um that is the plan that sets forth the goals, policies and programs um intended to guide present and future physical, social and economic development in Morrisville. So term additional terms say yes

that's okay must be released. Correct.

So, we typically have to ask the county. So, our authority can potentially extend up to three miles past the town limits. However, the default is that that land is the counties. So, if we want to bring property into our jurisdiction, we have to ask the county to release it to us.

You don't have to annex it. You you can remain in the ETJ. responsible.

You're not on. How about that? So, sorry. Yes. So, they if you're in the ETJ, you do have to abide by our UDO. So the UDO would govern space between buildings, sidewalks, blah blah blah blah blah. If you're in Okay, thank you. That's helpful. I I trying to learn some stuff. That's what we're here for. So I have a question. When it comes to the one comprehensive land use plan, is this board should that inform the decisions of the board?

Yes. when you are um giving your statements of reasonleness that we'll talk about a little bit later. So every decision of the planning board has to um the the board has to provide a statement of reasonleness and it you should reference um in some way the the um goals and policies of the comprehensive land use plan because that really is what should be guiding the decision and the development of bill. Um a lot of times the statements are given by staff um and so you know staff is very familiar with the land use plan and so um there the concepts of land use plan will be incorporated into like a draft statement.

Yes. So I wonder reason I'm asking is we had one case that came before us where a guy was doing reszoneed out a parking lot in front of his business and the comprehensive land use plan said one thing and this was slightly against that. Then we got two different recommendations. I guess one of them said approve it and one of them said maybe disapprove it. So why wouldn't you just say disapprove it because re staff recommends disapproval because it doesn't follow the planning plan. But you always give us a choice is what I'm asking.

Yes. I mean yes you you should reference it. However, it is a balance your your decision ultimately is a balancing act. Right. So if there is, you know, a another reason or a better public purpose reason, right? So we could recommend approve against the comprehensive land use plan and then the board could say, "Well, no, we don't really want that."

Yes. I guess just to follow up on this too with your comment before you were on this when we when I first started. We got recommendations from the planning department. Every every time we got a presentation there was a recommendation yay or nay and then sometime last year that stopped. So, they tell us as you go through those charts,

yes or no, it's compliant with the plan or it's not compliant with the plan, which is what you're referring to. But, uh, for whatever reason, I'm not making a point of a question. I'm just reminding or just putting it out there because at the time just said, "Hey, this is interesting. This month we don't get recommendations anymore." And they said, "Yeah, that's what we decided." So, Um well and and staff is there to guide you on, you know, what the UDO says, what the comprehensive land use plan says, but you know, ultimately we want it to be your decision.

Don't we occasionally have recommendations where it also recommends modification? You can certainly mo so especially for conditional zonings um you can certainly make recommendations to modify you know what so typically town staff has like the um like a a sample I guess approval or denial and you can certainly modify it however you'd like because ultimately this is your decision like I said staff is here to guide you and to answer questions um but it is ultimately the board's decision So, why did you stop making recommendations?

That's a really good question. Um, not sure. Uh, but I, like I said, I I think it's ultimately your decision. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions?

A great question. Thank you. Um, moving on. So, open meetings laws. Um, this is a right given in North Carolina to the general public to attend but not necessarily participate in official meeting of public bodies. Um, an official meeting occurs when a majority of the board gathers to transact public business. Please keep in mind that emails, text messages, those can all be considered a meeting if a majority of the board members are present. So if they're in that chain, um, and just a side note, board members can be held personally liable for attorney's fees um, for a knowing or intentional violation of the open meeting laws. Keep that in mind. And going along with open meetings law, public records request. Um this is a request by someone for records that are subject to the public records laws. So most documents, most emails um that are in the possession of the town are public. So keep that in mind. A quorum um this is the majority of the actual membership of the board excluding vacant seats. It is necessary to conduct town business. So if there is ever a meeting where we don't have a majority of the board members here, we could not um we could not open the meeting. Town ordinances, these are local laws adopted by the town's board of commissioners. Um ultravirus acts. This is when you act beyond your legal authority to do so. So I mentioned earlier that um municipalities only have the authority that's granted to it by the state. um anything else would be void any other act would be void if you don't have the authority to do it and then our UDO the unified development ordinance this is a

set of ordinances adopted by the town that contains local regulations regarding land use development etc. Okay so moving on to the other question yes so uh back to the the last page so Town ordinances just want to confirm they need to comply with state statutes. Yes.

So if a town wanted to have an ordinance, a noise ordinance, for example, there may or may be room in the statutes to have some kind of an ordinance, but it would have to fit in with that statute. Yes. So state statute is going to always trump our local ordinances. You know, in that particular instance, we basically have authority from the state to create a noise ordinance, which is why the town has a noise

or it was just an example. I mean, you could something else could. So, so the structure of the whole UDO and everyone in every municipality in and the town in in the state has to fall with it is is there by statute have to have it and it has to fall into this the hierarchy of the statutes down through just getting back to the type of state we are as opposed to a whole rule state versus

right so yeah so I mean we have like the entire UDO because we have this authority from the state to draft ordinances in order to regulate development

thank you All right. So, duties of the planning board. These are the various duties um that are listed under state statute and the UDO. Um you as a board review the comprehensive plan and other plans um related to development. Um you review and recommend policies, ordinances and administrative procedures. Um facilitate and coordinate citizen engagement and participation in planning. Um, you do provide or you can provide a preliminary forum for quasi judicial decisions. Um, I don't think that that's currently being done, but that is a a state allowed function.

Correct. Um, and then as you're aware, you advise the governing board on plans, zoning, text amendments, um, and basically do any other duties that the governing board directs you to. So duties of the planning board according to the UDO and what um you do have to consider are the application, the support materials, staff report and public comments um for each zoning amendment or zoning text amendment. Um you are required to give a recommendation and the basis or the rationale for that recommendation in writing within 30 days from the hearing. Um and you may recommend conditions related in type and extent to the anticipated of a development.

I have a just a question about public comment. So, um how much weight do you give public comments? Other words, everybody's always going to come here if there's traffic issues. That doesn't usually decide whether a project gets approved or not. Correct. How much weight you give it is really going to be up to you. Um there's really no hard there's 300 people, maybe we should think about it. But if there's two people, it's it's really a a decision that you kind of have to weigh on your own.

Just depends on Thank you. It was kind of a unanswerable question. Thank you for that. Sorry, I know that's not a great answer. Are they meeting or exceeding what they what that mitigation study? Now, a lot of times we don't have that information, but they will say that they promised to do what's ever in the traffic mitigation, which a lot of them are very minimal because maybe the DOT has already planned a turn lane or a light or something like that and they don't have to do anything else. So that's when people are coming in here and complaining about traffic. Personally, that's what I'm looking at. What is a traffic expert saying they need to do?

And I think that Sorry, I was just going to say and I think that also goes into this third bullet point. Um, you know, I doesn't there's not a hardline rule of like how much weight to put on a public comment, but you can take that into consideration for like conditional resonings if you want to propose like additional conditions or you want to modify proposed conditions. One where we said don't build so many houses until this part of the traffic thing is complete. Right. I think the public comment, you know, weighing it in, it weighs at the next level. So, you know, we didn't get elected, but commissioners do.

Yeah. I'm just saying I mean you know there are things we that the even the commission can't do and we can't do the public comment is an indication of the attitude of the residents and that is something that has more impact I think on the commissioners who are elected people. I mean I just Yeah, I remember the Costco.

Well, the public comment also gives opportunity for this board to ask program questions that helps to set up the board for their decision making process. So if we can I think always if we can listen and ask the better questions then we we really somewhat help set up or stage you know the next event for the town board to be more productive you know for all council.

I think a good example too is that you know there are things like traffic's an issue. Yes, authority over roads is complicated, but the community that came in out on 150 and the folks that were here so involved in the environmental concerns which we wouldn't even have known about, right? I mean, it was a surprise to me actually how much passion there was for folks about that and that had an impact, I think, on us going back and asking them for a condition not that they definitely are not going to use the the the lake access. There's probably other things that would come up. The most complicated because it's the biggest issue and the hardest for the town to do anything about is traffic. Any other questions on the duties of the planning board? Um so moving on to types of decisions and who makes them. So these are the four different types of dis uh primarily the decisions that are made by the town. Um we have the legislative decisions. Um these are um these set policy through the creations of ordinances. Um and these are decisions that typically um there's a lot of discretion allowed. Um so zoning amendments, these are legislative decisions and so you as a planning board do have, you know, substantial discretion in how you want to make your recommendations. the town board has substantial discretion in um how to zone certain properties or what um what territories to annex in. Quasi judicial decisions. Um these are primarily going to be handled by the

board of adjustment and the historic preservation. Um these involve factf finding um and it's more I guess courtlike um and there are more strict procedural requirements. um the advisory decisions sorry that planning board falls within the advisory decisions but you do have discretion in how you want to advise planning board or how you want to advise the town board um so as I mentioned um it's your decision is not binding but I do think that the town board you know seriously considers it and and values it um and takes it into consideration when they're making their legislative decision And then administrative decisions are decisions that are made by the staff. So why does this matter? Um it planning board matters because we are ensuring that the town is acting within its authority. Um we do a lot to protect citizens rights. Um our decisions should always be made with um a mind of, you know, not being overturned, making sure that you are, you know, stating your statements in your statements of reasonleness, backing it up, explaining why you're making your decisions, um and pointing out why something is in the public interest and why you're making that decision. And now we're going to talk about conflicts of interest. Um so one way that we protect citizens rights and prevent overturned decisions is to make sure that no one is voting in a matter in which they have a conflict of interest. Um so the definition is um by state statute a board member may not participate if the vote would be reasonably likely to

have a direct substantial and readily identifiable financial impact on the member or where the board member has a close familial business or other associational relationship with the landowner or the applicant. So close familial relationship is defined as a spouse, a parent, a child, a brother, a sister, a grandparent, grandchild, and then all steps happen in law relationships. So if you do have a conflict of interest, um you do need to disclose that. There is typically then a vote amongst the other members whether or not to recuse you. And if you are recused for a conflict of interest, um our rules of procedure that you need to step out so that you're not um indirectly influencing the vote at all. Some other um ethical items to be aware of gifts and favors. You can't accept them. Um we do have a um conflict of interest policy and a code of ethics for our advisory boards like the planning board. Um and if you want to read the full policy, let me know. I can send it to you. Um Other ethical things to be aware of contracts for personal benefits. Um you that would be a conflict of interest. Um don't misuse your position. Don't misuse any kind of confidential information that you get from being on this board. Um and also just be aware of conflicts involving nonprofit. So if you're on the board of a nonprofit and that nonprofit is here as an applicant, um you would have to disclose that and recuse yourself.

Just have a general question. And so when I was in the service, we had a you could accept a gift, but you know, like somebody could take you to lunch, but it had to be below a certain level. Same thing with yours. Is it 20 bucks or 25 bucks or So you can't accept any kind of monetary gifts. The nonmonetary limit is $15. 15. But in general, we would say to avoid Yes. Safe, pay your own way.

Thank you. So, now we're going to talk a little bit about what you should base your recommendation on. Um, and this chart is to kind of show you the difference between legislative and quasi judicial procedures. Um, but we're mainly going to focus on the legislature. Um, so the number of speakers, the statute doesn't limit the amount of speakers. Um, however, the board can. Um, so If something is going to be very repetitive, if you have, you know, five people up here or 20 people up here saying the same thing, um there can be a limit. And we do limit public comment to 10 or 10 people or 30 minutes. Um this is not an evidentiary hearing. So there's no, you know, evidence that is required. Um there's no findings of facts that are required. Your voting is by a simple majority. Um, and again, conflict of interest, the way that that's defined is a direct, substantial, and readily identifiable financial interest or a close familial business or other associational relationship. So, if you have any of those, you must yourself. So by statute um the stat the state requires that when you're making your decisions that you consider the character of the district and its uh peculiar suitability for particular uses that your regulations and decisions be made with a view to conserving the value of buildings and encouraging the most appropriate use of land throughout the jurisdiction. you should consider the comprehensive land use plan um because that is the overall plan for the town. Um so we want

to make sure that our decisions are going to fit in with this overall view of where the town is headed. um input of staff. Like I said, staff may provide technical analysis of permitted uses, comment on the adequacy of infrastructure and services, um and provide you any kind of information that you think would be helpful. Can we go back just a really good chart? Uh view to conser conserving the value of buildings. Are we talking about the buildings that are existing before the decision or after the decision or what does that mean?

So you would be conser like you would be looking at the value are you talking about like the existing building or thinking about the value of the building? Second I want to know what the second bullet means. Okay. So you would be looking at you know the surrounding area and conserving the value of those buildings and the value of the surrounding area. Yeah. Maybe the this is a quote from some place. Is this I guess it's in this statute correct. Interesting.

Thank you. Additional considerations for recommendations. When it is a conventional resoning, meaning a buy resoning, you do have to consider the full range of uses permitted. Um, it is illegal to not consider all uses. Um, for conditional reasoning, obviously consider the conditions. Like I said, um, you can modify conditions. You can ask the owner to agree to additional conditions. And then um reasonleness. Think about um your statement of reasonleness and plan consistency. Um reasonleness considerations include size, physical characteristics, the surrounding area, the benefits and detriments to property owners, the neighbors, a larger community, um the relationship between actual and permitted development. And then in general, you know, you should always go back to whether or not an approval or a denial will be in the in the public interest. That should really that's really what it gets down to. So your statement of reasonableness and consistency statement, um you should communicate reasons for or against the decision to the board. You know, let them know why you're recommending or why you're denying something. Um, give the facts that you relied upon and support your decision. Um, communicate again, communicate why it's reasonable, why it's in the public interest. Um, for consistency with the land use plan, you should always communicate what whether or not it's consistent with the comprehensive land use plan. The comprehensive land use plan can be amended. Um, so, you know, if you think it should be amended, you can certainly have a question. Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Apologize. Under what um format are we to communicate how or why this action is or is not reasonable. Within the packets there are the statements that we're supposed to read if we're voting to recommend it or voting to deny it. But separate and apart from that, if there are uh did you do do you want us to state publicly the reasons that we're not doing it or do either approving or deni recommending to approve or deny or whatever.

Yes. So those statements are in there to, you know, give you a a proposed motion, but you're not required to read those motions exactly as is. If you want to elaborate to communicate, you know, why you are and aren't doing something, that can certainly go into your motion. Okay? And that's also what the public, you know, the the debate portion is about after, you know, you make the emotion, after a motion is made, but before the full vote is taken. Um, that that period for the board members to to discuss and debate. I think that's really important. um because the town board does listen and they they will hear your comments.

That's what I was going to suggest. I think that's a great time to really expound on your reasoning why you think this either, you know, meets or does not meet and and why. And then I think the statements are fairly well crafted to go along with the key decision that you might make to say why this should be disallowed or allowed and and somewhat I guess bedded on these decision trees a little bit by staff because I know when they're written out it usually tells it does qualify one Morrisville plan and the consistency with the land use plan That was what I was talking about earlier. Occasionally we'll have a statement that it meets one but it's inconsistent with the land use plan and suggest modification statement of why it's inconsistent.

Correct. I think even there's been some cases where it's partially inconsistent. Right. So the vote for would indicate where it is consistent. The vote against usually will have that terminology. So, I will say the staff's done a pretty good job historically giving us, you know, sample verbiage that we could use in each of those, but to your point, you could always modify it as as needed.

Well, and I think to your point, Nico, when you're, you know, when you're talking in our discussion phase and really outlining how this strikes you and where you don't feel like it lines up in these areas, that's a that's a great time to really be able to elaborate a little more on that. you know, and then just read the statement and it probably lines up, you know, with what your thoughts were when you address the public.

Yeah. And I guess where I'm going with that is that that falls in line with the wide discretion that we have because as I'm sure a couple of us know that attorneys could look at the same photograph and say this is consistent with X and Lord know it's not consistent with X. And and that's why I'm I guess um focusing on um uh if if if it's impactful for us to I'm voting this way. Here's why. Vote not voting this way and here's why.

No, I I do think it's certainly impactful. Like I said, I mean I think it's it's important

to make us suggestion formatwise. We haven't we haven't actually followed Robert's rules of order, which is what you're talking about very well in the past because what happens in many cases in the last couple three years you and I have been here. Anybody want to make a motion? It gets real quiet up here and then somebody makes a motion. We get a second and then we vote. And I think under the specifically Robert's rules of border process would be motion discussion and motion second discussion and it and if what you if the rest of you are buying what's being said here and asked that would tee up the opportunity for anyone then before the vote to have any comments or questions or anything else. though they may not disagree with the motion maybe wanting to f because we have been

in the last year we've come we were a lot more vocal as a group than we have been in the past but where I've always look at the Roberts rules order you get your motion you get your second and then chairman asks for discussion even if it goes down the line or if there is none and then you take your vote which based on what we're being shown here your question I think that might facilitate reminding everybody that if you've got something on your mind, this is the time to bring it out. Even if it's not going to change your vote or impact what you're going to vote, it might be important going to the next level. I'm happy to make a note and ask that question if you all feel like that would be helpful.

I don't know if that would be helpful or not. I just throw it out. I feel like a lot of times we we have the discussion before the motion. So in those cases, maybe it's not necessary, but if we have a motion, then maybe pause for any additional discussion before a vote.

Yeah. Sometimes we're all talked out. That's happened a few times, but I just remember back a lot of times where it's there's a motion in a couple cases, the hands went up, it went up, it got voted up, it got voted down, and then we said any other motion. So then somebody, you know what I'm saying? where sometimes we're getting more vocal and we're getting more involved. This would remind everybody I think if we follow that even if the question then was since we had a big discussion on this particular one we have a motion and you say is there any more comments before we vote? Anybody have anything else they want to say before we vote? I feel like you've been doing that Mr. Chairman that you've been giving us the uh whether we haven't

question comments or whatever. I'm not suggesting so I agree with what you just said there, but procedurally I I see where you're coming from. There's us in every other board that I've been on, there's a motion to second discussion. Okay, let's vote. And it doesn't mean there needs to be more discussion. I don't think we've been restricted in discussing either. I don't think so either. But this would just invite the discussion. Well, happy to put a placeholder in just to, you know, create that option. Just occurred to me that might be helpful. I'm good at good as talking. Anyway, you answered my question. Thank you. Any other questions, discussion?

So, we talked about what you have to consider. Um, but let's talk about what you cannot consider. Um, impermissible considerations include protected classifications like race, religion, ethnicity, sex, national origin, disability, uh, familial status. um you can't take any of those into consideration. So you can't take the applicant's race, religion, ethnicity into consideration when you're making your decision. Um the inclusion of affordable housing. So unless an action is based on limiting a high concentration of affordable housing, it's unlawful to deny a development project simply because it includes affordable housing. Um and then I will need to look into that. Don't have an answer today.

I will get back to you on that. Um and then a decision without some valid rationale related to land use would be seen as arbitrary and capriccious. That's why it's really important um when you're making those statements of reasonleness to include why you think something is in the public interest, why you think it's reasonable, why you think it fits with the town's um land use plan. Because all of that um is going to be helpful for the record in the event that the town does get sued for making an arbitrary decision. So, additional impermissible considerations, a particular applicant, owner or tenant. Um, these are land use decisions, meaning they run with the land. And so, if somebody sells that land, um, those that those zoning conditions, that zoning still runs with the land. Um, so you really shouldn't be basing your decision on the applicant. Um, decisions also can't be based on the form of ownership. So, you can't base a decision on whether it's owned or rented because either way, if you're building if if it's a single family house, it doesn't matter if it's being owned or rented, it's still a single family house. Um, decisions should be based on the community. So, again, just making sure that you reiterate why you think something is in the public interest. Um, and then there are protection of particular uses. So the statute does have some state protections for certain uses such as manufactured homes, adult businesses, cell towers, um family care homes, and then places of worship. So it may be tempting to ask about some of these considerations. Um but I would strongly recommend that you stay away from that. Um because even if it doesn't ultimately, you know, go into your

statement of reasonableness or anything like that, if it's on the record and the town does get sued for making um an for making an arbitrary decision um or for um making a decision that is based on an impermissible consideration, it's a lot harder to defend if your record clearly has a question in it that you should not have considered. Yeah, I think this came up sort of at the last meeting where the gentleman there was a question on zoning laws either current or he could pick whichever one he wanted to use.

So I think it was you brought up that well we're not what we say now is going to stay with the land even if you're going to sell it. So that was kind of a light bulb for me. So I appreciate you bringing that up and I think it was a light bulb for the developer who already said he was going to sell it. the piece and I and I understand you know what we're allowed and disallowed in that respect but the only relevant piece that comes to my mind when we're looking at track home development that's that's built by a large corporation solely for rent you know so let's say I put up 250 $500,000 let's just say average homes and I'm just going to rent these I'm selling anything. Well, I I live in a world where everything is bought and sold not by the quality of the site, but by the quality of the owner and the cash flow that that owner generates. My concern sometimes with a large organization buying that. So we buy we buy automotive centers and because we have AAA credit we get a lower cap rate which means that center is sold basically on the rent that we provide for cash flow and lower the cap rate of course the higher the dollar value that doesn't have any reference to the piece of property itself. It's only being referenced on cash flow. The piece that that concerns me is that this developer builds 250 homes, has great cash flow, has deep pockets, and has a great credit rating, sells that property to the next developer, just like happens with our apartment complex, etc. And now the average homeowner is not paying a

$500,000 home price for a home that the increase is, you know, based on GDP or what the property's gone up. It now, you know, was maybe sold for $725,000 average because the cash flow was good and this developer's credit was high. that impacts now the basis of the analysis from the county, the city for, you know, what's the property tax on. I don't I don't know if anybody else has ever looked at it that way, but I see it in our world, you know, cap rate sales and it drives up and escalates property values, you know, in excess of what really the general property is because it's totally based on dynamic that to do with all you knowership. But anyway, just uh just a thought when it comes to that and we're you know thinking about those things because it does drive up you know the general housing cost which is something we think about because those affordable homes how many years I've been on this board a long time and every single year we're trying to think about how to include affordable housing but yet you know when you're in a exciting market like we're in where people want to be and large corporations want to invest. You know, that's actually working kind of diametrically opposed to

also seems like

it's it's good for the town. It's just difficult for the average homeowner. I think our median price here today is almost

if you go back over here to own versus you can't base your discussion decision on that. Well, that's what I mean. It's uh I I understand that but it's uh well it's assuming a statute says you can't. State statute says you can't. state losses that yeah, you can't face you can't that's an ultimately it's a it's well I understand that it's hard to not take that into consideration ultimately it's because it's going to run with the land and not with the individual applicants.

I may take the question to the general assembly sometime some of friends I've got there and have discussion because it is it is something that I know occurs drives up the value in a more particular or discriminant fashion than the actual land bag itself. The the piece of property has nothing to do. Anyway, I got us on the rabbit hole. Forget not really. I mean, it could have a very detrimental long-term effect neighborhoods property.

Well, I'm I'm just afraid, you know, I keep our our housing go up and we keep trying to talk about how to create affordable housing and just seems that that gap is getting farther not closer every year I sit on this board. I had a question about the protection of particular uses. So, I think it was last meeting vape shops came up, which we are a little sensitive about thanks to downtown. I think somebody in the planning department stated you have to have a special use permit for all vape shops. So, there's no place that's allowed by right anymore.

That's a local decision. That was part of our UDO. Okay. So, hot minutes since I've had property law and I know that you have to allow for everything like you know the strip club has to have a place it can go. So, we're never going to run a foul of vape shops because there will be some place it can go because the special use permit will go in front of the board of adjustment. Yes.

Okay. like I you know trying not to be discriminatory but at the same time you know you're telling me you're plopping it into an area that at this point right now has nothing like that I don't think we're going to be comfortable after looking at 150 in downtown putting it someplace but I yeah so based on our UDO vape shops can only go in certain districts and only after they meet certain standards for a special um for a special use permit from the board of adjustment.

So if we don't establish those districts in those areas, then they then their only route is in an already established area through the board of adjustment. Could you repeat that? So, if we don't establish the district that allows it, like last it was a commercial zoning that included vape shops in it, that vape shop, if we had allowed that to go through and it passed the board of commissioners, they would have then been able to apply for a special use permit for that area. But if we don't allow it on the front end, they're limited to areas that are already zoned for that commercial zoning. We had them scratch it as a condition. We had them scratch it as a condition.

Okay. from the zoning district they were wanting to go to which would have allowed the vape shots. We asked them to scratch it as a condition and it was an additional use. They had added it to it was not in that base zoning district. They added it because they're going through conditional and we were like nope we don't want it but there are other places that vape shops could go so we're not going to run into a foul of Right. Are you sure about that? You sure it was? It was added. That's why it was Yeah. That's why we our antenna went up immediately. Then we scratched five. I think like three were added and two were that was like the amphitheater stadium.

But I thought James I thought No, I just want to make sure I understand this right. They're going from this zoning district to this district and we start with a list of uses in that district. Can they add things when they come here? It was conditional zoning is why they did that. And it wasn't a straight There were two parcels. One was straight rezoning and one was conditional, right? Which was weird that it was different, but the straight resoning didn't have vape shops in one of the allowed uses, but the conditional they added it.

Yeah. And I didn't re I didn't recognize that. I didn't think that was something that we would do that if you're going from X to Z, here's your stack of Z. Let's cross off the stuff we don't want you to do as as a If there's something here we don't like, we ask you not to take to do it. If you want this resoning for this use, I didn't even occur to me that they may have added it. So with with all the conditional reasonzonings, those are a negotiation that both party has to agree to. So both parties have an opportunity to be part of that discussion. So that's why we tried to highlight that those were conditions they were trying to add in. They were like, let me ask my question a little different. I'm sorry. So the UDO says that this zone allows these things.

Yes. We can recommend to the town that they change that by doing it a condition. Yes. Usually is more restrictive. So I I I just maybe didn't wasn't smart enough to figure this out that actually you could come in and add things into a district as a condition that were already not there in the UDO. you can ask for it.

Okay. I guess I would like to make sure then that when we see that chart which shows the lined out things that if there's something in there that's not in the UDO, I don't want to have to go look at it. I'd like the planning department to say these are being added. They are not in this zoning district. They're asking for these to be added. Whether you make them in yellow, green, or whatever, we put them in a separate section. That was the we we did try and call that out and make it and my fault for not being smart enough to figure that out. No,

but I just assume that we were taking the district as the zoning as it is and we're because then when I came a couple two years ago, we weren't lining anything up. I mean, it just went over and everything was there and and and so we got a little more aggressive here saying we don't really like that being in there. But it never occurred to me people were actually asking for things that aren't even in the that aren't in the UDO there. So, okay. Okay. Good catch, guys. I just didn't like it. I thought it was in there. We should take it out.

But to your credit, I think that's the only time in my time on this board that I've seen something added, conditionally added. It's always been conditional removals. So, it was unusual. And to your credit, maybe the only time you've ever missed something. No, no, no. You're usually pretty I brought it up because I didn't like it, but I didn't realize it wasn't already in that zoning district. So, we didn't even have a big It wasn't even a big deal. Just said not a big deal. Thank you.

I mean, I I do just to comment on that. I do think typically you are going to remove conditions rather than add or like move uses rather than add them on because you know the purpose of conditional zoning is to is for the the town to have some kind of certainty about what's going in there um and to know how the and to know how the property is being developed. So I think in most cases they are going to uses are removed rather than added. Yeah, I know that's what I assumed but yeah good that one was sneaky. I definitely agree.

Thank you. That was good. So, we just James just make sure we know when they're if anything's being added it's not actually there. I can't imagine I'm going to be booking up picking up the big book and checking them all. All right. So, um just as like a summary for things that you should consider. Um and just keep in mind that all of this is a balancing act when you're making your decision. There's no hard line about how much weight you need to put on one thing versus another. Um, it's all about how you're balancing out these competing interests that are listed here. Before we go on to the next part,

teed up a question that I wanted to ask tonight since we have chance. Infrastructure is on this list, this last page. So, and maybe I just want to bring it up for future thought. Maybe you guys aren't going to be that interested in it. If you aren't, well, I'll cut it real short. We've got, you know, we we we are I I feel like we have pretty much restrictions on getting too involved in the traffic impact past the traffic analysis or a specific site which is done by professionals with a big book and all of that and and and they have to agree to do those things. So, so specifically, uh, I'm interested in I'm interested in peninsula property, specifically Broly school role. I'm interested in can we learn if you if the planning department has it or can we generate how much available property is still out there? How much of it is county property, which is the one I I'm concerned. Well, it all comes together in the end. I'll just throw the whole thing out there and and we can deal with it some maybe another time. But can we see how much county property is out there? Most of it is zoned, agricultural, residential, two per acre houses. what is the potential in the node that's out there at at Stutz Road and uh and uh in Broly in terms of what potentially could go in there. And I'm tying this going to tie this all back to

traffic, but in a different sense perhaps. Maybe it can't be dealt with, but it's a peninsula. We have a nuclear power plant on our lake and do we know what the capacity is for a reasonably safe evacuation of Broly School Road given what could possibly be built with the base case being we have a node where we have ability to put apartments in by right right now. I'm guessing that in that node that we have five apartment buildings going now. We could have five or 10 more on the other side of the street. I have a auxiliary question whether if they went in there would they would they have if they're buy right in there would the new requirement of 25% commercial be applied. So we have how much could be here? How much land down the way is still there which is going to be and could be developed and there's a lot of there's some big open properties as well. I'd just like to get that clearer in my mind before we get the next county property that comes in with multifamily, multi-unit requests. Uh that is there any leverage or are we okay? Could we build fill up the node with by right and put whatever is out there all the way out all two per two per acre on every every acre and will we still have a reasonably safe way of getting people off of that peninsula

that's well well I know James I know James knows that but I'm just No, it's not our job. I mean, it is it is but but it's our job to decide if somebody's got several acres of farm out there and now we want to put another three or 4 hundred apartments out there. When we make that decision, shouldn't we know that in our in our in in the node that we have right now that there's property there that is already by right for multifamily housing? How much is it? How many houses could go there? And because I know that the last one that we did, we did a small one down uh down that little plane which was the which is condos. We did 110 units which were the triplexes which was a conditional zone. And then after the triplexes came in and got done, we learned that there was a buy 380 apartment building. 3 30 180 apartments, three five buildings 30 that are already now they're going in on the count corner there. And when the next one comes, will we know what could go X in that node? And is there some limit to that two-lane road in the event of the need for an evacuation on that peninsula? And if there is, would that be a justification for us to say no? We don't want to take that county property for multi multi unit density. So I I'm not expecting any answer to that and I hope I didn't go too far off of the off of the agenda here. But when you look talking infrastructure and we've always been but you kind of told Yeah, but we don't control the roads because they're mostly owned by the

state. And for us to be able to say you can't do something or to have a moratorum specifically, you have to be able to address the problem that you have. department maybe has a sewer problem. So, they're going to have a moratorum because they don't have enough sewer. They keep putting stuff up there. We went through with everybody here. Nobody was able to tell us they couldn't manage what was coming. I just wonder.

Yeah. I'm not talking about practicality. I suppos Well, I'm just asking the question. I mean, does does the emergency preparedness people do they have a is is there somebody that has an idea that when you get x number of cars and people living down this way, if there's a problem at the power plant, we don't think you're in a good place to get everybody out of there in a reasonable time. And and if we knew that if that was some if somebody said that and we knew that was the case, would that impact your decision to put more people down there in multif family housing when you know that all of the property that's in the county right now can be built to two houses per acre and how many is that coming adding already that we are not going to have any say in

you make a good point. I I I think that's I mean you make a really really good point but that's part of the project specific discussion project

and I'm just looking ahead that's what I'm trying to look ahead and say can we look at can the planning department look at that I know you got a lot to do and got a lot of new people but can somebody look reasonable to look at that and say at some point in time We may have an additional reason not to want to take the Johnson's farm and put 700 more units on there because we know we can only have things going here and blah blah blah blah and we know that in the county there are another 2,000 properties that could be developed. That would that would for us be a reason to express concern project you know further studies on that particular subject.

Sure. I mean that can certainly I mean that can certainly go into your consideration. Um you know like I said if you bring it back to public safety public interest what is in the public interest. So certainly that information can be used when you make your decision. Um but no, I mean I think those are good questions. Um well I just you know help address those for specific projects. Last point, we're a property rights state. We honor the opportunity for people to harvest their property

and that's a high standard in the state and so we have to jump over high hurdles to say no you can't do that's your property and and this is something you can't do with that property. UDO is is there but we get faced with decisions not knowing what else is already in the pipeline. I mean we heard that early on when we got here. There's a lot of stuff coming and you're going to be surprised, but it's been approved a long time ago. And so tonight, we're talking about this 110 units. It's going over here, but there might be a whole bunch of other stuff going to happen. And and it's one thing if it's not a peninsula, but basically when you go when you get when you get by Morrison Plantation Boulevard, that's it. There's two ways there. And after that, there's only one way out of there. Well, and maybe that's the answer.

Maybe that's the answer. Maybe there isn't a problem and maybe it's not something that would be helpful. I' I'd be interested to know if there's anything we can look and I'm not going to hold your feet to the fire. I just wanted to get it on the table.

Well, I think I think it's a good question. you know, Jeff's point, you know, we talk about some of that in traffic mitigation, but also to the earlier discussion around asking good questions. That's also a good question. I think when the traffic engineer is giving their mitigation project, you know what happens? You know, again, build a little case basis in the discussion and we've already got x amount of multif family here in this mitigation. what happens in the event of an emergency and you've got just this one wave, you know, of ingress egress on this entire and and let them expand a little bit too because again they may bring up some things just like Richard's talking about that they you know we may not even be thinking about

that in a in an event of emergency you know this is what happens we shut down the roads it's all exit no entry We got people one way, whatever that may be. See it, right? I I don't want to hang it on the emergency situation. I think it's part of it in my mind. But I I do think not knowing having a good idea what is the capacity of that peninsula and what's already possible based on by right. It almost sounds like it's a way to say that. Okay. But but but eventually somebody is going to come with property that's county property and ask to be annexed.

I'm just saying so you can't really tell somebody that they can't develop their property based on infrastructure concerns, right? I don't think that's legal now in the state. So you're kind of trying to get around that by saying we we understand you want to put a 300 person place in here, but there's not enough capacity if the nuclear power plant goes for you to get out of there. So we're going to say no. That's probably not going to fly. That's what I mean. So I don't I don't see how that's even a productive line of maybe it's not permissible or impermissible

really the traffic engineering firm to the state standard that's creating the yay nay mechanics yes it's or no it's not and if it is doable it still may be an on rating but even if it wasn't an emergency is there a is there a saturation point for the infrastructure that's on that peninsula. I mean, it wasn't all zone peninsula residential for nothing. That peninsula word was put in there for a reason that time that people did that, but it doesn't seem to make much impact anymore.

Well, I did write down, you know, your list of concerns and I think that we can certainly talk to staff about that, you know, before the next project comes up where, you know, that's a concern. I mean, I don't want to bring up the nuclear thing. I brought it up in front of you guys because I trust you. I That's not That's not the real It is a possibility, but it's not I I see a two-lane road that's probably not going to be widened again. And I just would we are going to get somebody come in eventually to the planning board to the town and say, "I've got 500 acres. I could put I could put, you know, a thousand houses on it and they'll pay me $3 million or I can put this on it and they're going to pay me $15 million and this is what I want to put on my property. And uh and then and then does does the infrastructure limit on Broly School Road at all? And how would we know? That's what that's what I struggle with. How would we know what's there and what could be built? I think it's too late. You ever try to get down Broly School Road when one lane is shut because they're doing the power lines and you're backed up four miles? I mean,

well, it's not too late to make it worse. Okay. Sorry. I apologize. Sorry. Just so excited not to have a case tonight. Do we want to take a break or not that much longer?

Okay. Um, this slide is going to be really quick. These are just like I said, um, earlier, one of the things that I wanted to you to get out of this was just some best practices for how to prepare for these meetings. Um, obviously review the agenda. If there are written public comments, you'll get those in advance of the meeting. Review those. um notify us if you think you might have a conflict of interest. Um especially if this is going to affect quorum. I think it's really important that you go ahead and tell us so we know. Um you you can visit the area of town to be familiar with it when discussed. Just don't go together as a majority of the board. So don't make it an open meeting. Um review the UDO sections that are involved. If you have questions, reach out to the planning department, reach out to us. Um think of questions that you might have before the meeting. Um during the hearing, listen, ask good questions. Um think about whether or not what you're asking is going to be an impermissible consideration just so that we can keep the record clean. Um and then don't engage directly with the members of the public. Um even if they try to engage you during public comment, um we do typically have a policy that we don't respond right away. um if they need a response, they can leave their email, their phone number with um planning department and we can get back to them individually, not at the meeting. Um and then focus on the right things. Is the request consistent or inconsistent with the one Morrisville plan? Is it in the public interest? Why? Um for conventional reasonzonings, don't trust renderings and promises because they're not tied to it. If it's a conventional reasoning, then they can use the property for any of the permissible uses. Um, and then for specifically text amendments, um, think about how that text amendment can be applied to other situations. Don't base text amendments based on your applicants in that one

particular area. Um, think about what, if any, slippery slope it'll cause. So, so just the second to the last bullet, this kind of t this kind of points out the fact that sometimes I've been under the impression that, you know, we we can't get too much into what it's going to look like. Some come in with come in with certain standards in terms of what the so on. What I'm reading here is if you're coming in for a conditional zoning, we can ask about that and we can say we want to can we ask we'd like to see a little more crisp drawing of what this is going to look like.

Yeah. So for that that second to last bullet that's only for conventional resonings and byite resonings. For conditional zonings, there's typically a condition on there saying that they're going to abide by their concept plan. Um, and so they are bound once those conditions are in place, they're bound by that concept plan. So for conditional zonings, you you do have a lot of discretion in asking for certain conditions so that you know what it's going to look like.

But sometimes like for the little village, a little little house, remember that? I mean, they wouldn't even claim that that's what they were going to look like. These came out of a book. I mean, and we were, you know, I mean, basically, these came out of a book and and this guy and and so on. So, we want you to we want you to give us and there wasn't enough there in my but I got the impression and that's what I'm asking about this. Now, I I get that's for conventional. So, we could press harder to have a more idea about what something is actually going to look like if we have concerns that it's something unique. Obviously, when you get into the sections of the UDO, there's a lot of specifics about buildings and so on and so forth,

right? But I mean, there are conditions that, you know, some developers have agreed to for, you know, they're going to use certain materials or they're going to stay away from certain materials when they're building certain things without question. We've seen that. But we've also seen where there's nothing. Am I right? I mean, we've also seen where there's basically it's going to be it's going to be nice. and that's when you can modify certain conditions um as long as it's within the realm of the UDO and the state statutes. Thank you.

Okay, so now I have some very quick hypotheticals. So Jim, a biking fanatic and involved community member, is the owner of a local bike repair shop and serves on the town planning board. Jim has been in business for many years and is well known in the community. Jim's friend Daryl, seeing how much fun Jim has as a small business owner, has decided to follow suit. Daryl prepared a business plan and is working to open a bike repair shop of his own. Daryl is now before the planning board requesting reszoning to be able to build his shop. What should Jim do in this situation?

I don't see why. And when someone volunteers that information, it's up to us to ask the question if they we think they can make a sound decision or an impartial decision and take a vote on that. Yes. Unless unless he just that individual feels, you know, I'm just too close to this. I probably would be jaded. Better that I step away from the situation.

Yes, that's a really good point. You do have a duty to vote. So you can't conflict out of everything. But if you have a legitimate conflict, like you have a direct relationship or a direct financial interest in this or it's the applicant is your spouse. Um in th in those cases, yes, you should conflict like you should conflict out. Um however, like I said, you can't do that for every case. Um because you do have a duty to vote. But wouldn't the case here mean be specifically that he would only be in a conflict of interest if he was going to be competing with it? He doesn't have any financial direct financial impact. Isn't that what we said that the condition was for conflict of interest? I think he should tell the board, hey, I I I'm helping him with this. I don't think I want to do it. But specifically, does he have a conflict of interest under the what you told us before? It had to be a specific direct financial or family connection. he doesn't have either

or yeah so there's there's the issue of competing business but there's also the close associational relationship so something that I would probably want to know more is how good a friends are they like are they such good friends that he can't be unbiased in the situation um so I mean I think these are you know good points but ultimately yes it will be up to the rest of the board members to decide whether or not to recuse um Jim even if he discloses.

Well, but they would still be friends, right? So,

I just question whether it was written to assume that there's going to be a conflict Yeah. Yes. Um, and just to answer your question real quick, we didn't really write these with the idea that there's a conflict of interest. It's more to just get you to discuss like what questions would you ask? So, there's really not a clear answer on any of these, if I'm being honest. It's just to get you thinking about if if you were to take a vote right now, what questions would you have? Any other discussion on this one?

Other than I ride 10,000 miles a year and I'm the avid bike fan. Why should I step aside? Yes, you should. That was good competition. You might get cheaper parts. I like that. You got two go to.

All right. Hypothetical number two. Michelle serves with Jim on the town planning board. A real estate investor from Miami has purchased a large tract of land near Relle's condo complex. The investor has decided to build several large homes which will likely sell for over a million dollars. Michelle heard from her neighbors that the investor is all about making a buck and does not build quality homes. Even worse to her, she hears that the investor already has interested buyers from Miami. Should she participate in this discussion and vote on a reasonzoning? And what factors can the board not consider? So, I guess we can start with the first one. Um, does anybody think she has a conflict of interest?

No, she has information. Depends on what the definition of near is I mean ruining her property probably a conflict of interest in the town of Morsville. Everything is near. We wouldn't be able to do anything. Disclose it. I agree. Put it out there. I live down the block. I live near put it up for a vote. I think you're always better off just to let folks know. Yeah. Be transparent.

Best practice is if you if it's if something is in your gut, give it up. If that that I think is a best practice. Hey, just letting you know I know X, Y, and Z. um because whatever the reason is or this and then let let the rest of us vote on it. I think that's the best practice. I agree.

I agree with that. It's it's better for us to turn that to you or Terry let you ask that question relative to them being impartial and let us take a vote. you know, if they if they feel good about it, convincing, you know, in terms of being able to roll forward, you know, then I think we can pick up on that. All right. So, what factors can the board not consider when they're looking at this?

It shouldn't be relevant that they're from Miami, right? So, location of the investor wouldn't matter. I don't know that the quality of the build matters. We don't you don't know who's actually going to build that and that's what the inspection department's for, not us. And the quality of the build is not that's just hearsay. I mean, we've got standards build we have to assume that's the standards of the UDO and the inspection department's going to hold it to proper quality. I don't think that quality is relative as well. Your quality and my quality could be different. We're not asking what home on sale for such.

All right, moving on. Um Tim likes to build. He especially likes to knock things down, build them bigger. He has a lot of machines, including his digger, his dumper, his cement mixer, his crane, and steamroller. Um Tim is building three sets of town homes for himself, his business partners, and his workers on a 30 acre tract of land. He would like to build a commercial office space for his development business and store his machine in the parking lot behind the office. Tim's 30 acre parcel is zoned for residential uses only. He is seeking a conditional reasonzoning so that he could have these mixed uses on his property. Um, what should the planning board consider when looking at Tim's request? And then what if instead of a conditional zoning, he decides to go for a conventional zoning, but he promises to the board that he will only use it for stated purposes. So if you I guess we'll start with the conditional reasoning. What can the board consider?

I think buffering Because I mean it's residential to commercial. Yes, it's a related owner now, but in the long term you have different owners of the town homes and different own commercial business and you've got a lot of equipment but it could be a lot more a lot louder. So you want to make sure that the it's appropriately buffered whatever is recommended by staff. Usually know how wide that needs to be more than we do. We talk about conditional zoning earlier. We can get we can get pretty defined on that, can't we? In terms of the conditions around what we might accept. You can I'm sorry.

We can get pretty pretty granular and defined around the conditions we would accept. We're talking about conditional zoning. for conditional zoning. As long as you're not running into any of those impermissible um classifications um and as long as you're not running a foul of the statute, then yes, you you have a you have a decent amount of discretion for conditional zoning. So when you're so when you're thinking about something in the context that Lor's describing, you know, adding buffering, you know, the things like we were talking about earlier that will go with the land throughout its life cycle and those those attributes have to be maintained properly etc over time

and you could add all that in to somewhat build that buffer and qualify that land meet that objective right so what if he is seeking a conventional reasonzoning that allows a lot of different uses but he promises to the board that he will only use it for his stated purpose

I don't think we lean on promises Yes, that's correct. So, this one did have a yes or this one did have a correct answer. Um, you can't consider it. It is illegal to not consider every single use for a conventional reasonzoning. And the last hypothetical, Leslie is wellknown and popular town council member who is the owner of a breakfast themed food truck. Leslie has decided that the law needs to change with the changing times. The current town ordinance only allows beer and wine to be served in special in certain business districts. Leslie's food truck can go anywhere and frequently caters parties and events. Leslie wants to be able to offer mimosas to her customers in accordance with state alcoholic beverage laws um on private property. She has asked for a text amendment allowing wine and beer to be served in any zoning district if done so from a business that also sells food. She believes that adding mimosas to the menu will drum up business. It might even encourage those who are not interested but in breakfast to stop by and see what she's all about. Of course, she'll be very responsible in serving. So, assuming that there are no conflicts with ABC laws, um what should the board consider in approving or denying this text amendment?

The law of unintended consequences. What would it do? change this for her to all the zoning districts,

right? Do you want your ice cream truck driving around selling wine or beer in a residential neighborhood? All right. Um, last couple of points. Failing to follow procedure or making decisions not based on proper facts can leave the town in the position of defending an expensive lawsuit, putting our resources and reputation at risk. Um, when you're making your decisions or you're stating your decisions or when you're asking questions, it is really important for the legal department anyway that there be a clean record. Um, so that if we do get sued, we can, you know, point to the permissible considerations and reasons. just

they are the ultimate decision authority. However, um we shouldn't do our job, right? Yeah. No, I mean I that's a good point. This is only an advisory board. However, I do think that if they're Hell yeah.

Yeah. I think that ultimately because these are public meetings Yeah, ultimately because these are public meetings and public bodies, whenever there's a lawsuit, they're going to be looking at every step of the process. Um, and so even though this is an advisory committee, it is really important that that yeah, that um we we keep a clean record. I do understand a little bit about the developer side, not defending the developer. By the time they get to us in the examination process on a big piece of land they're looking at for residential or commercial, they could be between 200 and $500,000 deep invested money out that they don't get back. So when we talk to them, I think we need to show them a bit of respect because they're skin in the game. We don't have to like their project, but this goes back to there's a lot of emotion, believe it or not. Right.

And there's been a lot of back and forth. They don't just end up here with one submission. It's probably been work through multiple. And each time you engage the architects and the land engineers, it's 5,000 here, 10,000 there. 20. And again, I'm not defending them, but I think we need to be we need to be able to hear them. We can push back 100%. But But they've also paid for these flashy presentations where they promise a buffer that they already had to give. They always put the stream buffer in there. And guess what? They already had to do it. So you have to like look past their smoke and mirrors and what are we actually getting? So if it's conditional, they want something. What are we getting in return? Because there has to be some back and forth.

And this is my final note. Bad decisions made with good intentions are still bad decisions. So, just, you know, be thoughtful, be considerate um in what you're what you're doing and we appreciate we appreciate all that you do for us. Any Oh, sorry. Any questions? Oh, here are some resources. Obviously, if you have any questions, feel free to contact James, Gary, me, anybody in the planning department. Um, and then there are just some other general um general resources like the school of government. great place to if you have a question about any kind of land use question. It's a great they have a great blog I would highly recommend. Any questions?

Thank you. Nice job. Thank you. Appreciate that very much. I was going to ask you, have we ever that you're aware of, have we ever put out a case that turned around and got the suit? But that the Costco piece wasn't us. We approved it. It It was the town board that they Oh, you're talking the planning board.

I'm thinking has there been anything that we've had?

Okay. So, they just basically base it all the way back to us regardless. Okay. I didn't know if we'd made a decision that specifically bad for developer that they taking a lawsuit out because of the decision we made. Yeah.

You know, I didn't think so. I And I give this board a lot of credit. Uh, and I do like and u you know Laura when I when the text amendments come up I I think of you because you always you approach those and Miko you may end up adding that same type of perspective because from a legal background I think you all look and you read between the lines very well and so you bring a lot of comment you bring commentary forward in some of those that I don't always think about and and that's what I like about this board. I think it's got good diversity to it. Uh I think, you know, like Michael's talking about, there's been a lot more discussion over the past couple of years, you know, and I've had some good feedback, you know, from town commissioners with that. So, I think they do pay more attention and that discussion helps drive out other questions that they can ask and other involvement they can have looking at those cases that come from. But I always appreciate that and appreciate this board. You all help me out every time I'm up here because you give me good thoughts to think about and what we're trying to achieve. With that, I'll shut up.

Oh, it is. Okay. Uh if there's nothing else to discuss, then we are ajourned. Pardon? Motion. motion. Well, I will ask for a motion in a second that second. Okay.