Historical Advisory Commission - Regular Meeting

Okay. Done. Yeah. However, I

just did you receive an email from them saying they've registered? No.

I have it on my own.

Oh, okay. Okay. The two b I'll check to see. Okay?

It's coming, so she works.

It's March 13 and March 27. Okay. Yeah. Between ten and one

at lunchtime. At Amy. It looks like a goddamn

I should Maybe we have to have lunch. Judy, we could all sit on the same we could we could Yeah. Go to it from scratch. We could

We're have three. Together. I am so Okay. Are we ready? I'm so

sorry. We're

too busy doing our we're doing our lunch together. I know.

Fairly fine.

Good to ask for both hands.

Okay. Yep. We're gonna start the meeting here. So I'm gonna call to order the Thursday, 03/06/2025 meeting of the Monarch County Historic Resources Board. You got a roll call, please.

Yes. Kelly Morgantini? Here. Looks like Michael Village is absent. Judy McFallen? Present. Sheila Prater?

Present.

It looks like Salvador Munoz is absent. And blended or blended to live in? Present. And Cher Sporkas?

Present.

So we have five present and two absent.

Okay. And so can we have the protocol meeting, please?

Yes. So for the hybrid meeting, members of the public should have their video turned off unless they're presenting. This helps with bandwidth and to reduce distractions, and staff will help monitor and turn off videos as needed. We do ask you to keep yourself muted if you're presenting. To mute on Zoom, there's a button at the bottom of the screen that looks like a microphone, and you can also do this by pressing 6 if you've called in. To participate in the public comments on Zoom, you can raise your hand by opening the reactions tab at the bottom of the screen that looks like a heart. Or if you've called in, you can do this by pressing star nine.

You're still.

And Salvador Pinaeus is now present. Another way to participate is by sending an email to hrdhearingcomments@countymonterey.gov, and this email address can be found on the meeting agenda. Staff are monitoring the email in real time, so if you have a question, comment, or document, staff will do our best to respond in real time.

Thanks, Phil. So at this time, I'll look forward to public comment on non agenda items that are under the purview of HRB. Anybody would like to speak? I

see a raised hand for Eloise

Shin. Okay. Eloise, would you like to speak now?

If you like, you could just unmute yourself.

Why not?

Okay. Good morning, board. My name is Eloise Shim, and I'm a member of the Salinas Historic Resources Board. And, I'm calling in to let you know that at our next meeting, which is in April, the first Monday in April, I will be giving a presentation about Salinas Chinatown, which has a building on the historic resources board, the Republic Cafe. So, yeah, if you're interested in the architecture of, of Chinatown or any of those topics.

I've been working on this, presentation for longer than I've been on the board, which is about two years. And, so I'm excited about it, and I'm hoping that if any of you are interested in, Chinese architecture or art or the policies regarding Chinese art and architecture, y'all tune in and watch it. So thank you.

Okay. Thank you. And is there anybody else under public comment that would like to speak at this time?

Okay. Seeing the weather is closed for the floor to public comments. Is there any agenda additions or Through the chair, there are no

agenda additions, deletions, and or corrections. Okay. Thank you. So I'll

move on to scheduled matters right now. We have the one item. It's DA two forty two six six. Randall and Stacy Ballard. It's a public hearing to consider recommending that the chief of planning approve the design approval to allow alterations to the Fanshawe House, including all single pane plate glass closing will be replaced with insulated closing and aluminum frame units in existing openings.

It's addition of window and access doors from the courtyard to the garage, We should gonna convert a portion of the garage into an office gym with a half bath. Roof over the garage. It's replaced trellis sections at the north and south ends of the structure. Casement egress windows will be replaced with new aluminum train units and existing openings. There's a new built in hot tub spa planters and ventral posts within the existing courtyard.

And the courtyard was previously a swimming pool, recently permitted to be filled. Colors and materials match existing masonry concrete, and it's unfinished incense cedar with siding and trim, sand finished concrete patio, and new mullion pattern windows to match existing. So planner, I'd to

make the presentation. Good morning, chair Scorkas and historic resources review board. Elizabeth Gonzales, project planner for Dowler, d a two four zero two six six. The property is, located at 313717 Mile Drive in the Del Monte Forest land use plant. This is a public meeting to consider a design approval to allow alterations to the Fanshell House.

This includes all single pane plate glass glazing to be replaced with insulated glazing and aluminum frame units in existing openings, addition of new windows and access doors from the courtyard to the garage, converting a portion of the garage into an office gym with a half bath and a new green roof over the garage. Replaced trellis sections at the north and south ends of the structure, casement egress windows to be replaced with new aluminum frame units and existing openings, new built in hot tubs, spa, planters, and bench proposed within the existing court courtyard. The courtyard was previously a swimming pool recently permitted to be filled. Colors and materials to match existing masonry and concrete, tan slump stone block, unfinished incense, cedar wood siding and trim, sand finished concrete patio, and a new pattern windows to match existing. The applicants began obtaining permits to start interior repair work in 2023.

Initial permits include residential reroof, repair soffits, roof thickness, replace six CMU exterior walls, replace interior water lines and electrical service panel, demo existing interior concrete slab, demo existing pool and fill, and replace plumbing, electrical radiant heating under concrete slab. Much of the work they've received approval for, interior works for repairs, would not generally not require a discretionary approval or referral to the historic resources review board. A phase one DPR was prepared by Anthony Kirk on 01/26/2022. The Fanshell House appears to be eligible for the California Register of Historic Resources under criterion three as an an unusually fine example of organic architecture. The residence is designed by Mark Mills, a Carmel architect who worked out of his home for over half a century.

According to this report, its character defining features include its plan, form, fenestration, features, and finishes together with the setting which inspired the design. Another historic assessment prepared by historian on on 10/14/2024 states this is the historic Fanshell House by noted American architect Mark Mills that was constructed in 1972. Seabee's report continues. Its immediate proximity to the ocean and weather in general for over fifty years has caused structural damage to the building envelope, including corrosion of the vertical supports of all types, which by expansion has created cracks in the supporting slump stone walls. The roof covering has also eroded over time, allowing minor intrusion.

A careful and exhaustive program of discuss discovery regarding these issues supported by initial permits from the county under code section chapter eighteen twenty five zero two o for maintenance and repair not only have the specific issues at hand been identified, but some of the original craftsmen and contractors for the various materials have been engaged to resolve the problems, including access to original materials such as the original slump stone bricks. The proposed work has provided a reasonable course to assure the appropriate materials, methods of construction, and construction group of people familiar with the residents to affect an excellent result in the rehabilitation of this unique and important example of the design work of Mark Mills, which intends to meet the secretary of interior standards for the treatment of historic properties under the standards for rehabilitation. Therefore, staff recommends that the Monterey County Historic Resources Review Board adopt a resolution recommending that the chief of planning approve a design approval to allow alterations to the Fanshell House. And this concludes staff's presentation. I'm available for questions.

Okay. Thank you, Liz.

Just for information, Sal and I did do a site visit subcommittee for last week. Yes. So if you have any questions, we can also answer it. So any questions of this at this time from the board? No. No. Okay. Would be the applicant or whatever? Yeah. So

my name is Gretchen Fletcher. I'm the architect for the project. I wanna make one correction to what the application is asking for because in in in your report, you called the garage being half of it being converted into a gym office space. By Pebble Beach's standards, we have to keep two cars. We have it has to be a two car garage.

So we are keeping the garage door for that space even though we're going to be able to utilize it however we want. So that's I don't want a conflict between and him. If we can avoid that, that'd be great. So I've put together a couple of slides just to explain a little bit about how we got here because this has been a really fascinating project for me, at least, and and I think, actually, everybody involved. And so what what we've we started out the first permit really was to reroof the building because there's a lot of water intrusion, a whole bunch of water damage on the or not damage, but the blocks on the interior of the building just exhibited a lot of, leakage over time.

And so that was, an obvious, problem for redoing the roof. In in peeling off the roofing, we then discovered a variety of other things that, one of which was pretty critical because the, steel frames that hold the plate glass windows, the existing windows, were actually embedded in the concrete roof and were corroded as well. So they were cracking the roof from the top. So it it really opened up a a whole can of worms in terms of evaluating what we are working with and knowing that we had to come up with a different support system for the windows because we couldn't hang them from the roof. And what we wanted to do was fix fix the damage of the roof and all the cement block walls that had corrosion, a lot of water intrusion and corrosion and cracking of those walls, so that was another permit.

But in evaluating that, we also wanted to make some modifications to the interior of the building. In the in the upper right corner, you can see that the the the building is really made out of a series of these concrete block walls. Those are the the supports. That's all the structure. And then the roof itself as a concrete shell, basically, works in entire entirety in its entirety with those walls.

So when you modify any one part of that, you have to really look at how does that affect the whole building and how is it now working. So it's it's a lot more complicated than, you know, a typical building. So we wanted to open up some of the two of the walls on the interior, and so we had to evaluate we the the whole structure. And in doing that, we've we we got a concrete specialist, structural engineer, basically, to do this. And so it really started to educate us in terms of what that impact was going to be structurally.

And so then we had the building scanned to see if we really were working with a building that was built the way that it was designed. Because we have the existing drawings. We have all the information of the existing building in terms of what was permitted, but you don't know if they built it the way that it was drawn. Typical problem. So we had the building scanned, and that really showed us let's see.

Could you go to let's go to slide number four on that. Yeah. There you go. So we had the building scanned to show us the the the color drawing. Is is the roof showing us really where the thickness of the roof was, what it was supposed to be versus what it really is?

And that gave us a lot of information about really how we needed to address fixing the roof in order to do the things that we wanted to do. And so it's we scanned the walls. We scanned the roof for where all the rebar is so that we would know exactly what the building was that that we were dealing with. And we were very conscientious about making sure that we didn't do anything, didn't add any load to the roof, punched, you know, maybe one or two additional holes for vents, pipes, but to try to minimize anything that we did to change that or add any additional weight to it. So then we also realized that the the slab that was in the house was really not a structural slab at all.

So the building had nothing other than the roof holding it together, which is a little different. And by today's standards, just not not okay. So so we really had to think twice about, okay. Are we just chopping up that slab and adding structure to it, or we came to the conclusion the simplest and probably best overall effect would be to remove the what was the one and a half inch slab that was there with radiant heating in it that didn't work and put in a new mat slab, new structure, tie the whole building together, and and start kind of fresh with all the utilities underneath that slab. So that's what's been going on in addition to all the work going on to the concrete.

So so if you go back to slide number two, it kinda shows just a a little bit of the process of the slide two? Two. Yeah. Sorry. Two? Yeah. Two?

Yeah. And three. Sorry. That's three.

That's that's one. That's one. That's two. That's that's good. Okay. That'll do. Yeah. Whatever number it is. So so these are pictures of at one point when we were really evaluating roof, of the top pictures show that the the building had a plastic cover over it to fix to protect it once they ripped off the roof. We had to protect the roof, and make it waterproof.

So then we had a chance to really evaluate it while while that was happening during that winter. And and it's it's really helped to understand that building inside and out in in many, many, many ways. So you can see how they started very gingerly figuring out how much of the concrete shell had been damaged by the corrosion, and and there was evidence of patching that had been done previous to that rip. And so we started just chipping away at it, and, basically, the structural engineer said, you have to go to where the corrosion has stopped on the rebar, and that's basically get back to the window line. So that's kind of where we are today where it is that we've taken the roof back to the window line.

And they're now in the process of building the formwork to re to repour all of all of that frontage back to exactly the way it was. So it's been it's been a process. The goal being to put it back the way it was with some additional windows on the court side courtyard side and and to the wall adjacent to the garage. The pool, we we needed to address this the building must have settled somewhat because the pool deck was really sloping towards the building, creating just pooling water there against the the back wall. And we had a lot of mold, and and that was that wall was pretty gone.

So we really needed to address mediating all the the water issues coming from every direction. Part of the problem was that none of the exposed concrete had any kind of waterproofing on it. Other than the rooftop, there was no waterproofing of any kind. And concrete's porous, so it you just naturally are gonna get water coming through it. So we're we're coming up with ways of addressing that with with new elements that can deflect some of that water.

We've changed on we had the ability when we put the new foam on the roof to give it a little bit more slope so that we had more drainage, improve that. And we are going to add on the the each end of the building, there was originally let's see. Could you go back to slide two, I think? Yeah. There was originally these were these were photos that were taken right after the construction or right before it was done.

And what we wanna add is a trellis on each end of the building similar to it was built originally, but then it really wasn't structurally sound, and it decomposed and fell off. And we would like to put something back that is in that same profile and add a gutter to it to to be able to collect some of the water that comes off of the roof and and mitigate as much water running down the face of that block as we possibly can. The other thing we wanted to do is on the garage roof, and you can see in these pictures where it was it it was basically part of the sand dunes. I think that's what his intent was, was to have it be an an early version of a green roof where it was covered with sand. We'd like to put a, basically, a green roof back in that position, although I don't it's not gonna be sand.

It's gonna be it's gonna be something else with with doing appropriate planting, but sand is really heavy, so we we don't really wanna do that. And they took it away at some point, I'm guessing, because they needed to reroof it and just decided that they didn't wanna deal with it. They didn't have a good drainage system for it before. So so we're trying to kind of put things back that were there originally, only do it in a more conscientious way so that it doesn't fall apart or or create more problems. So that's kind of the the gist of what we're trying to do, and the process that we've been through to to try to, mitigate the problems that we've run into and, then, you know, try to try to make the building as sustainable as it can be for, hopefully, the next fifty years.

And I I think we're very fortunate to have caught it at this point where it's fixable and there's the damage hasn't been so, intense that that we would have a different building by the time we were done. So I I give the owner a lot of credit to to to have bought this building because it was an iconic iconic building and not because he wanted to add anything to it or or make it something different, but to make it a comfortable home. It was a four bedroom house to start with. We're making it into a two bedroom house, basically, and just opening it up on the inside so that you really do benefit from its context and and hopefully make it a a very desirable place. So I think that's all I have to say.

Gretchen, I got a question. Because the pool or the permits had to demolish the pool that you're

saying Well, the pool is still there. We're not gonna we're not gonna take the pool out. It's still there. Basically, what we've done is just filled it in, and what we'd like to do is for the outline of the pool is I think we're gonna do a trench drain that outlines the pool that so you can see the definition of what the pool was and and then patio that or, you know, concrete over the over the the interior of that. But I think that that's something that is very important for the shape of the courtyard.

So, you know, it kinda there's a purpose for the shape of that courtyard. Everything is on a radius, and it's just it's all very, very specific. So we felt from the beginning that although the the courtyard's really small and the pool takes up most of it and it's not particularly desirable in that area, that we wanted to to maintain that geometry because it's really important to Mark Mills laid everything out in in in very organic ways, and and so we just felt that that was necessary to to reflect that, keep the the memory of the pool. So that's the intent.

Any questions, Bridgeton? I have a question.

So how closely did the actual construction follow Mark's drawings? Well, that's been kind of interesting too. So it's really very close. Although it's not as precise, it's not as consistent as you'd like it to be. So we're really, you know, having to to accommodate some of that along the way, and that's that's been it's been doable, though, because from his drawings, we've been able to figure out, okay.

How did he come up with how did he come up with this radius? Where you know, how did how did this because his drawings have almost no dimensions on them. It's radial points and a number. It's this radius. So trying to figure that out. And the scan has been fabulous to work with because, okay, this is what it is. So you can compare what he had in mind and what actually is there. And the only thing that we discovered is the the real difference is that I think they used a different dim dimension point from when they laid out the roof. It's actually eight inches. The the eave is eight inches bigger than what it says on the drawings.

So they measured from the the outside of the the concrete wall, the window wall, instead of the inside, which most of the measurements were from. So we had to go back to the structural engineer and say, oh, okay. Can we do this? I mean, is this structurally are we still okay to that? And he said, yes. So so we're okay to do that. We also added because the roof was not an even thickness. That was a real concern. We added a a product on top of the roof that add that bonds to the concrete and then gives it the strength that it was designed for. And we have the original calculations.

Howard Carter did the original calculations, and Sheila Foss, the daughter of Joe Mako. I don't know if you remember Joe. But, anyway so he he did the structural calculations. So we have all of that information, and we've been able to compare and and and evaluate it along the way so that we knew that we were not adding anything that the building couldn't handle or adding what we needed to in order to supplement what was supposed to be there in the first place. So

Next question. Would the owner like to speak?

Maybe. I don't know.

So he was online. Right?

He he was. Is he still there? How do I know? He's in pool.

Okay. So at this point, I'm gonna open the floor on public comment at this time. Public comment?

Yes. Do you wanna present?

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Speak under public.

The thing that's exciting and interesting about this building to me and sitting on it with the first bunch came in, almost everybody who did this are still doing it. So you have collective memory for the first time I've seen anywhere on the Monterey Peninsula. I've been here for fifty years where a collective memory has come together to do it again because they were so committed and involved in it. And, that is the key to this whole thing. And then finding contemporary materials, contemporary skill sets that can execute.

It's just one of the most, amazing contemporary or modern house projects I've run into. And I'd like to commend the architect and the owner particularly, who has an architectural firm, I believe.

Yeah. He's an architect as well. Yeah.

So, this is, this is like the Mona Lisa getting cleaned up properly.

So may we get your name for

the Can't see me. I'm sorry.

Thank you.

Preservation consultant.

Looks good.

I think that I think that this is this is a really unique situation, and the contractor who who, in many ways, is more like a boat builder. So he understands and knows how to address all the curvature of the building, which is fascinating because it's like he's building templates. He's he he has to figure out the parabolic curve of everything in order to to do what he's doing. And and it's made it it's very unlike any any project I've worked on where, you know, you have the expertise you need to be able to figure out how to do this and do it effectively and efficiently. So it's, it's been a really fortunate job, actually.

I'm just gonna come back, Priscilla, under public comment. If anybody else would like to speak to the public comment.

I don't see anybody online.

Okay. So so the comment and bring it back to the board. So, yes, just seeing what the site is like. Definitely not inexpensive, but credible amount of work that was needed to to oh, I'm sorry. Not salvage the house, but, I mean, there was there was a lot of issues that had to be figured out. And they, you know, they hired the appropriate consultants to to figure that out, and it's a lot of work. You know, when you look at just the concrete, chipping that concrete edge back and, you know, getting the right concrete people to to be able to patch that. You know? And and it's and they got the you have the original roof roof. Right? That's

Yes. The the the manufacturer of the original roofing is still in business and still making a kind of an upgraded product, but, basically, that's that's what we're gonna redo it with the same kind of roof. And the company in San Francisco who did the roofing initially was going to it has been working on it. And because it's a little tricky, you know, putting this kind of material on a on a sloped concrete roof. So, you know, we have the the right people doing the the the work, which has been helpful. And a waterproofing consultant that I just adore. I mean, he's been really helpful.

This reminds me of what Anthony Gaudi said. Originality is going back to the origin. Yeah. So you're going back to the original people who actually did this. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes. So there's solar panels on that.

There were, and then we took them off. And I don't I think in the eighties, somebody put them on there.

Yeah. I mean, it's not an inexpensive task, I will tell you, when you see the the amount of work that's done out there. I mean, there's nothing left on the inside, the floor, and the amount of plumbing they had to go back in.

Well, yeah, it's it's to put a radiant system in, we we initially weren't gonna take the slab out. So we were trying to figure out, okay. How do we get how do we we can't we couldn't repair the the radiant system that was there. So how do you do that? So you could add, and we did entertain this thought of adding the the warm board material on top of the existing concrete, but he wanted he still wanted the concrete floor.

So then we would have added a layer of concrete on top of that, just a thin layer of concrete. And and that would've maybe that were would've worked, but the reality of it was that there was so much structural work that needed to be done on the walls where we were cutting the openings Mhmm. That it really started to not make sense for us to to trench everywhere for all these utilities that had to go in, plus dig out around the walls that needed to have new footings. It made much more sense to just take that slab out and start with a a basic structural mat slab. So

I have a pool on the drainage question. You said that it looked like the outside had start the pool area had started sloping towards Towards the house. And that's where the drainage

Yeah.

Have you been able to address that so that you that drainage doesn't come back

as a problem? Gonna redo that that concrete work in the back. I mean, that's we have to because they're I mean, they can't just, you know, raise the concrete slab. It doesn't really work. So have to do that. Excuse me.

So any other questions? There's just one other observation that to keep those walls stable. When they're working, they actually had

to put

steel tubes down below the foundation level to tie the walls together to stabilize them while they're doing all the work. So Yeah. A pretty incredible task to do what they're doing in that house.

Well, that was a big concern because what's holding it you know? I mean, the the roof was the only thing really holding it together, and we took out when we took out the slab, it's just like, okay. We've removed something with who knows how much it was doing, but what do you do in the meantime? And, you know, we just didn't we didn't want the building to to be in a in a more fragile state. So that's what we did.

This is probably one of the more extensive efforts I've seen. Yeah. So quite a challenge. Yeah.

I think it'll last at least another fifty years. Yeah. I'm pretty sure.

So any other questions, Gretchen?

About how long will it take to completion, which estimate? I'm hoping that we get it done this year. Yeah. Yeah. That's my hope.

Yeah. We I mean, right now, ordering the windows is a really big part of this, you know, in order to get the the building buttoned up. And we haven't been able to order the windows yet because until the eave is built, you know, and the platform that the windows will sit on, we don't really have dimensions to get them. So that is a real push right now is to get all that in place. And, of course, we needed approval in order to make that work. So

Believe it in one of those pictures, can see where the roof treatment on the inside had all those wood slats. I don't if you could fit up, but they were I don't know how far apart they are. They're pretty close. So, anyway, all that's gonna be It's

gonna look same. Replicated. Yeah.

It's gonna look the same. That I mean, that's the that's the goal because the I we really feel that those are the the significant defining features of the of the building. It's just

So you can save them that money. Clint. Did

you have you guys were out there looking to, I guess, a question for Sal and for John and for you, Gretchen. There's some there's going to be some new windows added. Does that take away or add to the structure at all? They're I like it's just in the resolution of the

Well, they're they're on the back side.

Okay. Well So you can't see I

mean, the new ones are gonna be replaced just because of what they are. You know, they're just corroded.

And I was thinking about the new ones. We can't see them from

No. No. They're on the back side. And it yeah. The the window wall on the front side.

So one of the things that we've just recently discovered is that we were we were gonna add I mean, the the mullion pattern was gonna be the same. We were gonna add some operable windows where the mullions allowed for the size of an operable casement. There's a few operable casements on that window wall. However, they have been painted shut or glued shut in some way, and they haven't been operable. And we've recently discovered that they're probably not operable because getting an operable window in that configuration to meet the performance levels that it needs to meet without having a big heavy bulky frame is really hard to do.

So we're we're thinking that we're going to eliminate those operable windows. All the will stay where they are, and it'll just be fixed glass on that front wall. And then, we've added some windows on the operable windows on the backside and one one operable door. And then what that means is that we have to come up with alternate ventilation, basically, for the. So we're in the process of detailing how that's gonna work.

But I think that's the right solution because making it a heavier frame on the out, That was that was one of my main goals was to really keep that window wall as as minimal as it could be because that's what's so interesting about that window wall is how how minimal the framework is. It's a faceted wall. It's not round glass. It's faceted. And it's I also felt that if we were going to be replacing glass, it needed to be insulated glazing.

It couldn't just be plate glass. They've had lots of movement, I think, in that and had some problems with the glass cracking, just randomly just cracking. And and they've replaced window panes with different kinds of glass, so, you know, it ended up being kind of a patchwork. So I thought that we could improve on that for sure.

And the glass in the back, it still matches the same pattern, the same line. Yes. You know, the original. So it doesn't alter

No. It doesn't. That was, I think, important.

And the house I mean, one of the things about the house that I think is really interesting is the kinda transparency of it. And in essence, we're really kind of making that more transparent because of taking out some of the interior walls that that, you know, blocked the view. From from the kitchen, for for instance, there was a a wall a hallway created, and then it was it was just a a dark corner of the kitchen, and we've been able to modify that and make that much more open. So

And I think of the lines inside the garage door is going to be removed with that.

Well, no. Well, so we can't. We have to keep the garage. Right.

I mean, it was just in one of the items that you were doing in in the list of

We were going to remove it when we were thinking that we could make that into a a habitable space. But K. So There's

a storm in the driveway.

Beach requires a two car garage.

So So we would try the the floor plan show having two spaces in the garage. Yeah. It does show replacing the existing Yeah.

Yeah. No. I'm not I I just thought maybe it might have been, like, a hand or something. But yeah. No. Can see

Well, the man doors are gonna be the doors open to the courtyard.

Yep. Yeah.

Yeah. And

the solar panels are not gonna be replaced on the van.

We're not gonna we're not put them anywhere

or you

just We're not gonna put them on the house. I think that if we put them somewhere, they'll probably be, you know, on the property somewhere behind the house because there's a lot of property behind it. And if we were going to put solar panels back, I think that's where they would go. Well, that'd the fine. Propane tank. And there's a propane tank behind it.

That's the same where was.

I know it's exposed right now.

Yeah. But it is behind the wall. Yeah. So you don't actually see it except for when you start walking up on

the Yeah.

Property. It's gonna walk up behind it. Yes. And it's interesting to see when they built it that it wasn't it wasn't covered with ice plant. And then we had one photograph where you could see where they put the ice plant plugs in, and it's just like, okay. This was the problem. So

Okay. Any other questions? I just think they did a incredible amount of work to get it to where it's gonna be. Like I said, it's probably the the most extensive effort I've seen in my renovation, restoration. For

the size of the building, definitely, when you think about it. It's not a it's not a big house. And evolving budget.

As you keep discussing such.

You know? I'm thinking about it.

Don't wanna think about it. Know. Budget is a little vocabulary. Sounds like It'll be just sign that one thing interesting the contractor did is, you know, that whole back courtyard there? You framed a roof over that whole courtyard. So they have enclosed heated space to do their

Temporary. It's a temporary. Yeah.

Did that so you had a space to dry space to work in. To work in? Mhmm. Yeah. That was pretty creative. Mhmm.

Yeah. But that'll all go away. Although the owner did walk in, he's like, oh, well, this is kind of nice. I got a lot more space out

of this.

No. No. No.

It's temporary. You don't get to keep it. Support. Yeah.

No. No. But it is really helping the whole process because they can keep the materials dry. They can work in there.

It's it's

really helped a lot just to be able to to, you know, make sense out of all this. So it's good. Wow. Okay. Yeah. It's a fun project. Congratulations. Yeah. Love it.

Great job. And we're gonna request a tour when it's done.

Yeah. Oh, oh, absolutely. I request.

I'm sure. So we put the ocean.

Yeah. You go. Conditions. There you go. There's Randall now. Randall's there. I know he's there. Yeah. He's he's got the clue. So

Okay. So what do like to he'd like to speak.

Well, I would make

a motion at this point. I don't know if there's any more discussion necessary

by the board.

But I'm going to go ahead and make a motion to adopt the resolution, as provided to the board with some minor modifications. As the second, whereas this parcel is located at 66 at 3360 5th Avenue Carmel be revised to actually address 30313717 Mile Drive, Pebble Beach. The APN number is 008263001 be replay would would replace the APN that's there. The zoning district, I'm not sure. You're gonna have to check that.

I'm not sure what the zoning is, and I couldn't find it referenced anywhere on the documents. Make sure that it is LDRDash1.5, Coastal zone, low density residential. The second modification would be under the third whereas at the top of page two, it reads addition of new windows and access doors from the courtyard to the garage. And then in parentheses, it says convert portion of garage into office gym with half bath. I would suggest we modify that and so it reads, add addition of new windows and access doors from the courtyard to the garage, comma, add half bath to the garage, semicolon, and continue on with the conversation as overhangs restructuring just so that it is in agreement with what Pebble Beach has

Right. Dictated. Other than those two modifications I'll second the motion.

Okay. Any discussion? All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. Thank

you. Well, thank you.

It's

nice to see you. It really is.

Thank you for attending.

Okay. So we're we don't have the batteries listed. We have other batteries. Thank you. Thank you.

If you'd like to start.

Yes. I have two things. First, just to as a overall comment. I started I used to work with the planning department years and years ago. I actually did help with the HR resolution and all that. I've come back since February. I don't remember. I'm a temporary employee. I work, like, twenty hours a week, so I'm helping the planning department as a senior planner to get through initial studies and just all kinds of stuff I can help with to do training and things. The one thing I did make absolutely clear to the director of planning is that if I come back, that was not going to affect me for staying on the h on the board here.

And so I've been, as well as I can, compartmentalized away from any HRB applications or reviewing anything. I haven't seen any. And, of course, if I, for whatever reason, one comes up that turns out to be historical, pass it on to Phil or something like that. So I just wanna let everybody know that. And then the second thing, which is part and parcel being able to be here, is that we started to actually work on an outline for Right.

For training. And I don't have anything to put up, but a few months ago, Philip, Phil gave us some information about what we think that that the staff needs. You know, what do we need them for? Just it's just an outline we've got that I'm gonna send on to to John. You know, what are where are they, what the historic resources are? Because there's HR zoning, and then there's nonzone still important. Also, what you know, what do we do after we've identified something? You know, how do you start off when you're sitting there at the counter? So we're doing that, which is great because now I can I have a lot more contact? And so we'll start these off, and then we'll figure out when a good day will be for us to present them.

I'm gonna send it off first to John Skorkas and then for the for us as the board to review and then decide when and how we're develop this. So I think the point was not just to have one, but we're gonna do some a series of this training because it's it's a lot to take in, and we wanna make sure that people people get what's going on. That's a good idea. So I'm hoping in the next, you know, couple weeks or so but for sure, by the next HRB meeting, we'll have a review, hopefully, the plan. You'll see what we want to do and what kind of phases we want to have as far as presenting trainings. Sounds

good. K. And how soon do we anticipate maybe doing trainings?

I'm I'm a look at Phil, but, I mean okay. So we have staff trainings, and and what are the best times and the dates for this year?

There's no three averages. I think with them. I'm not sure.

I think that's feasible. We can use our standard HCD planning meeting time. Melanie was okay with doing that. Maybe we should have, like, the the outline and, like, the documents prepared for the first one.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Get it scheduled. We want someone to let them know, I think, weeks in advance. That way we can bring their recording, equipment. Just have a video and have the PowerPoint saved so that it, stays in the department. Yeah. It doesn't

That was one of the ideas too is to be able to have this not only to say, here's what you should do, but to be able to some people to have people go back to the places. If we say that there's a list, there's a local register well, not there's there's not one shelf in the planning department that has the local register and the county plans and everything else. They're scattered everywhere. Everybody kinda knows where they are, but if you're brand new, you don't. So to have a link to say, here's where the local register is. Here's where the zoning is to find out if it's a zoning overlay or not. Here's where the state's the the the state department of historic resources lives. So stuff like that. And when you say the regular meeting, do you mean the scoping meeting on on Thursdays, or you mean the the a different meeting?

It is HCD planning division meeting weekday or every other week.

Is are those the Thursday ones?

The Friday ones.

Okay. Because the Thursday ones are, like, right before I mean, they may still even be there. Okay. Every two weeks. And they're usually for an hour, so we'd be taking right?

Yeah. So there's multiple it'll be, like, multiple one hour chunks. The next one is on or next one is tomorrow, but the one after that is on the March 21. And then

I've always had April. Sorry for April. Maybe you should think

Yeah.

March is the two really Then

there's April 4 and April 18.

Okay.

So we have them on Fridays at 11AM twice each month.

So maybe even a couple months. Yeah. Whatever you want. Yeah.

I would I would like to ask for the we wanna have just, you know, one or two of us present or me present, or would it be better as a joint presentation with each with as many HRB members as possible? In that case, we'd have to have special noticing and all these kinds

of things.

I'd normally say Keith. Yeah. How are you? HRB members. It's No. No. Okay. No problem.

But if you wanna make that a bigger project

It isn't raining.

Different HRB members. Yeah.

John, what did you say?

Oh, I I just said keep it a couple HRB members that present. And they maybe they fluctuate or whatever, but you don't wanna get into a worker noticing all that. You know? No one Yeah. Take it public. Yeah.

Mhmm. I wondered if it might be helpful to any of those people to attend one of

our meetings on a on a Thursday.

There's a lot. So how many would be It's it's just a different staff. I mean, Liz is Liz is one, but then there's the the staff that are at the counter who are the first to take a look at a checklist to see whether or not something falls in there. So that's, like, the the big focus of the of the main people. I'll ask to I'll I'll ask Phil later on.

Liz will ask you

later on his call. I now know where he sits.

I'm kidding. Not a

bad you got a free pass to the front door. Way to go.

And the chalk.

There's a reason they can burn off that lobby.

And the chalk. Yep. Yeah. But yes. So the frontline staff. I'm not sure. That's the first part. Everybody else needs to know because of the initial studies and things like that, but it doesn't help a lot to focus on how you approach this as an initial study if you haven't had the, you know, the folks at the front. And because I when looking at it, what I wanna find, if I can, is our original Screkles project. Remember that years ago?

Because that's kinda how this started a long time ago where somebody up somebody decided that they wanted to tear down a huge, really significant structure in Sprinkles. And they just did it because nobody thought it was a big deal. And so we saw it after the fact, and that's how the company started. So I'll be probably asking you guys and where if and where we might be able to dig out some of that to show those as examples.

So so as we're kind of on this topic, I wanted to bring up the application we just had.

Mhmm. Mhmm.

You know? Because Good example. You know? I mean, we've discussed this, you know, kind of through emails and that side. Just that, you know, we got the design review. And, you know, originally, I wanted it for the board to go out there. But there was so much con that there was no context what was even there before. Or, yeah, since they closed the patio, you had no idea what the original well, it was hard to tell what the original house was and, you know, where the contractor came in temporarily. And and so it became an issue of all the the temporary permits. Not temporary, but the partial permits, and you can kinda see the list of them.

You know? And that list of permits kind of generated into the situation where, you know, everything was, like, gone before we got the design approval. And, you know, so it becomes an issue when and and, you I don't know. I think the discussion Mhmm. Not one of those permits would necessarily itself bring it to the board. Right? So Mhmm. And then you can see what happened was, you know, no ill intent on their part. But when they got the the permit for the roof, you know, the windows were attached to the roof. You know? And so there was nothing that said, if you do that, you have to come back to us. So it was just something that they worked with the permits they had, and then the scope changed. Mhmm. And and so it kinda happened, but it happened. You know?

So it wasn't like they came with the initial application. And so we could do the design review, and then they do the work. You know? It was the partial permits to do the work, and then it kinda took it to another place where by the time it got to us, there was nothing left to see the most. Yeah. So you know? And I don't know how that I know, Liz, you mentioned some things, but is there any you know, like, for one permit, like, if they were payment back for the roof or something, would that trigger you know, how would that work? Because it was you know, there was nothing really wrong on anybody's part. It just generated into this with that method of permitting. You know?

And in most cases, it probably wouldn't matter, but when it's historic and and kinda and in this case, it worked out well because they're they're doing the right thing.

I think we got a little lucky. We did get lucky. Yeah. Because Another case study Excellent is project, but I could easily see somebody have taken out the roof and put it in with something totally different where they have the windows, and they don't wanna restore the original penetration. Yeah. We have some good ideas. Kelly mentioned that everything is kind of in disparate places. I'm gonna spend some time trying to consolidate it into a list that has the register. And then if I can find the the reports that are like, this isn't on the register, but it is historic. Mhmm.

And if I can spit out which properties have the HR zoning, I could refer people back to the one list and make it as simple as possible. Here's the potential historic resources or if it's over 50 years old. And then in terms we might have some process changes where we flag those simple over the counter permits and don't issue them until a planner has had a chance to review them. That would take a little bit longer on the applicant's side. And then we can, like, ask the follow-up questions of, like, okay.

You're taking out the roof. Is that gonna lead to takeout the windows? And the answer is, no. It's like, Move forward with this little limited scope. And then in the department update, I could say Yeah. We issued a simple permit for a historic resource. This is why we issued it. If the answer is, oh, that's gonna lead to taking out all of the windows. It's gonna lead to all this other additional scope creep that it's like, okay. Now hold on. This needs a design approval. This is not a simple permit.

Because because both you know, even like the concrete slab, you know, when you have floor to ceiling windows, you know, that affects the windows as well. Right? Yeah. So it's it's just that and I don't know if you're here to start with, but we're just kinda talking about, you know, how the partial permits kind of led into where it is before it became for design approval. You know? Because, basically, you know, it's you know, anything that we could design approve is was already taken out. And and we're not saying it's the fault of anybody. It was just how the permits are issued and how things kinda developed into this this system. Well, I think

we we probably discussed this there as discovery. And then some of the discovery became to an issue relatively to the safety of the building, etcetera, etcetera, and some work left to be done. But Yeah. Yeah. Because at

this point, it's no change before you decided Google, and there's nothing.

It's all gone. Understood.

Yeah. So it's just

You know, I would think that you could put something in your system. It says if thing that says, if you determine that discovery is important, you know, we need to review that in advance of your going permit.

Are we taking public comments instead of seeing another

I'm just really surprised, to be honest, because I've done quite a few historics, and I have yet to ever get through planning without someone slapping me silly going, I don't think so. It's just a reroof. We're replacing it in kind. We wanna see everything. And that's why I'm like, how did it loosen up from that to now? That's that I don't understand how that got there because it always seems like I was getting nailed.

I think so. I'm just

You guys have your eyes out of it. Cannot speak.

Oh, that's true. Another case study is a house in Moss Landing. It was a tiny little house, very cute, and then it was major, you know I think an it disappeared.

I do remember that one. The context on that is a little different. They didn't get any permits for that, and this one, they did apply, and we we issued them. Yeah. I I have I don't know if it's

I I'm not quite sure how it loosened up, but maybe it could mean that everybody's so overworked and understaffed and and things things get missed. It just happens.

That's Let me let me ask you this. We used to get projects from Mosulande to review Mhmm. You know, on May.

We haven't seen any of

We haven't seen it this point, but I know there's a lot of work that's seen in bubble from Mosulande. Yeah. So and I I know a lot of it, they probably just did not.

The further away you are from salliness, the easier it is to

change that.

I did

wanna mention that Carmel Valley Range, they call it the Carmel Valley Range Building burned to the ground.

Yes.

And and seems odd that, you know, this building has stood there for how many years, and all of a sudden, there's a dispute over though the county doesn't want it and the school district doesn't want it, but somehow it just magically catches on fire on the occupied building.

Like, a week ago. I didn't

have Yeah. I would imagine. I would call this, demolition through neglect slash vandalism because that's where I think it's I don't know if anybody's gonna trace it down. But

Well, you got one in Moss Landing, the, the Queen Anne that's very, very, very tired. It has been empty for thirty years. And, physically, it looks good from the outside, but if you touch it, it falls down. And it's in a backyard covered around with a bunch of crap, and there's a huge hotel across the road, and there's a gas station immediately behind it. So its landscape setting as a rural entity doesn't exist.

And, again, there was a foundation put together to save it. Somehow the foundation fell. I've I I've worked on that damn building for thirty five years, and we've never gotten anywhere. And it's primarily because the farmer who was cropping it didn't wanna do anything. But and it was never brought up to this body as an issue that should be addressed as demolition by neglect. Is she raising her hand?

Is that the? Yeah.

And that's in Santa Cruz County. Okay.

Is that the Redmond?

Oh, yes.

Moss Landing?

The Redmond. Yeah.

It's really outside. In Monterey.

Is it Monterey? Yeah. Well, then how come the Santa Cruz County people called me on it?

The Redmond Building?

In Moss Landing. It's It's

not Moss Landing.

No. No. Not Moss Landing.

It's in Raleigh. It's it's in Mossville.

It's over the other side of the river, so it's not it's definitely Santa

Cruz County. Yes. Yeah.

That thing's been yeah. That's

And the community make a response about $80,000 of donations from the community. Then and then the organization that was working on it

just disappeared. Strange how that happens.

Welcome to Santa Cruz County. Again, remember that's South Santa Cruz County.

Yeah. Oh, it got vandalized too. Right? That was one of the issues. Yeah.

Vandalism was there, yes, as part of it. You know, all of

the front columns got stolen and the stairway guy signed or something.

I think that structure was actually on the national register.

It was? Yes.

It was a listed register property.

For its association, with the Japanese

two families. Who The original and the Japanese family. Yeah.

Many years ago, there was a shingle a roof shingle company that put that in their ad. They reroofed the house. Just a shingle.

Believe this. That's possibly why it was a foundation.

You're noticing that? Yeah. You know, I said, I remember that. Yeah.

If you go out and take a look at it, it didn't do a very good job.

Yeah. Well yeah.

Does it work when you don't have any sign on?

So But it was

the windows open. The roof looks good. Yeah. Forgot just to show that.

They did actually also, save a number of the, fixtures that were associated with the house during the time that they wanted to, preserve it, and so they put them in storage somewhere. But when they utilized all the funds that were set aside for others you know, on other things, I don't know what happened after that.

Nor does anybody apparently in the department over there. Matthew Sutt is the guy I was working with on this.

I know Matthew.

Yeah. Yeah. From

San Juan Bates. Got away from the permitting issue. But Yeah. Sorry about that. But I I

We can use those all as examples of what we want you to do for staff training. How's that?

Yeah. Sorry. Trying think it back like that.

There you go. Well, I've got another, comment is I had a conversation with my supervisor, Wendy Root asking, because she was concerned about the Mills Act, Mhmm. And she wasn't happy with the Mills Act. The conversation kind of came up where they were saying that when they look at the applications, the way she sees it is they see the ten year plan, and they look at it as, like, that's maintenance that any house has. And they don't see why hell I can justify just doing a ten year maintenance plan.

And and, like, well, the way she put it is if they're if they're looking at a job position, whether to, you know, fund another job position, and they look at a MILSAAC and they're saying, oh, that's just me. You know, let's say the ten year plan. Mhmm. And kind of not so much respecting the actual historic. And and I thought that was interesting because that's how they're reading it. You know? So I don't know if installation reports are written to them, and maybe there has to be, like, another way of writing the report or something. I just found it interesting that that's how they were looking at it because I look at the tenant finders. All the last is maintenance. You know? Mhmm. And anybody does maintenance on their house, so why should we get my tax credit from us?

Monroe County doesn't do maintenance on their historic, so let's be careful. Yeah.

So she wanting to and she just doesn't I mean, I mean, a comment, or is she wanting to to address that?

Well, it was a comment because she's not happy with Mills Act.

Did she instigate this conversation?

Yes. Okay. She instigated it.

Okay. Interesting.

But it was just it's her observation. She's fine. So I mean, and that's just just how she's looking at it. Right? She's looking at just the they're they're not weighing the historic component necessarily. You know, they're just looking at this, and they're they're kinda missing the value. Can I make a comment? Yes.

Asks you thinks everything should go to gutters and sidewalks somehow and that she can't understand why you would give any money to anybody to save an historic property when it should go to the schools. Right. The problem nine times out of 10 that I have discovered in the last three to five years is that the owner who goes after it is well under $2,000,000. I mean, $3,000,000, the the county cap. But as soon as the process begins, they buy the house, the county reassesses at 5 or $6,000,000.

So it's not the owner's issue. It's the county's issue of creating the problem. I mentioned in the two mills we got through the Mills Act, the last ones, that you just got a $40,000,000 house bought down in the Highlands. Within three years, you had two twenty nine and one twenty six million dollars taken care of. How come you're not using that money to fix the gutters and the sidewalks? I mean, there's so damn much money going into anything we have here. I don't see where that's from. I think you get them if you come 5,000,000 or something like that. You know? Create a cap.

Find a cap that's proportionate to what the county average sale for a property is and use that cap as your, solution to that is, you know, beyond. That makes common sense. But you must remember, and I don't know if she even knows, that if you sell as we did in the islands, you gotta pay the back taxes.

Mhmm.

So the county wins in the long run-in a in a manner of speaking. If you pull out of that MELZAC, all your back taxes have to be paid. I think the one down in the islands that went went away, they paid, what, $450,000 to

the county. Suspenders one. Right?

Yeah. And so and and that's your quid pro quo and and a reasonable solution or a reasonable answer

to her. I I'm not sure. Well, I All of the things too is there's 15 houses out of the county that are knows that. Right? I mean, there was the two that were the Alright. Maybe push. Right?

But she sees it when she go when it gets to her through the through the board review for the approval for the Mills Act. Is that Yeah. So maybe in when we prepare those staff reports, indicate why the Mills Act's important for the restoration and the maintenance and and keeping the historic structures historic. Well, that may I don't know how they're worded. It's like, yeah, they applied for the Mills Act. They wanna get a tax reduction as opposed to saying the purpose of the Mills Act. And then this is offset by allowing them lesser taxes so that they can afford to pay these additional fees.

That they will do it.

Correct.

Point of fact, they've committed to that amount of money

to It's just a presentation, mister, maybe. I don't know. That might make it clear. I don't know.

But, I mean, must be that it's it's one person, and there's only 15 home home bills act. You know? So when you rate that, you know, or or base that against the number of homes in the county, you know, the advantage you're getting with a historic resource versus I

understand. But I understand her point, and it's one supervisor, and there's five. And if you get one supervisor talking and then there's two supervisors, then there's three. Three. Then there's then it's out. That's the issue that I would find. But I would not be and the county is always facing budget issues and staffing issues. And along with the price of living going up, people who live and work here need to get raises to be able to afford to live here. And if that's if you can't, then you can't recruit staff. And we get ourselves in a situation where the staff can't keep up with the growth and the work and everything else, and then everything kinda falls apart.

We've had that discussion, just recently overgoing, why do people just go out and ask for forgiveness on rent tags? And everybody's getting away with cutting down trees and doing whatever they want. They're they come back in and just pay a little pay a fine. It's we'll just pay double our fees because it's cheaper than waiting and getting approval. Because some conditions, cutting down trees and developing on 25% slopes is a no. But they do it. Now what are you gonna do about it? It's already built. It's already tore down. It's the trees are gone.

Mhmm. And so we see more and more of that. And I think a lot of it is because enforcement is difficult, processing is difficult, and people don't wanna wait. So they just do what they want. That just needs more staff time to to catch up and to keep enforcement in check. So it's it's a balance, really.

And we do try I can send you the. We should try and contextualize the benefit of the program, and it may just be that different supervisors have to balance the different fiscal Right. Responsibilities differently. Correct. And having observed the deliberations of the last board of supervisors hearing, there's different layers to look at it.

You look at the overall contract cost over ten years. You look at the annual cost, of the contract, and then you look at the annual cost to the county. So some of them look at it and see, oh, well, the annual cost of the county is very small. Some of them look at it as weighing the annual cost of the county, you know, the other different agencies that rely on the funds, and some of them look over this is a ten year program. It's what we're getting worth $300,000 of the public's money. Then that is just a perspective approach that different policymakers need to take.

Yeah. Mean, I the other issue is the value of saving those has to the community. Right? Yeah.

I mean,

because a lot of people I mean, there's a lot of homes like you know, I mean, it takes the Frank Lloyd Wright house. You know, people come to see that. Right? Or it's it's an attraction to bring people. You know? And and that's also the reason. I know.

I guess the other thing I I did wanna say is on the process, the county's assessment of the home does not affect whether it fits within the value cap. It's based on an appraise a market appraisal that's within a one year of the application. So even if it's sold in the proposition 13 value goes up, that doesn't affect whether it fits in the value cap. That's based on the appraisal. We did have one contract where it was appraised or I'm sorry. Assessed over the cap, but it was appraised at below the cap. And in that case, they were not required to get a value cap exception.

So, Phil, the other thing she asked for was to see our annual report and get a copy of the annual report presented to OHP. Is that possible? The CLG annual report?

I can certainly send over the CLG annual report. They won't have much detailed information on the Mills Act. No. No. I was

just to understand what the board does. I guess she hasn't she was just curious because I was asking about the funding question as well.

Are you her rep on the board?

Yes. Okay. Thank you.

I there is supposed to be annual Mills Act reporting from all the property owners. It's been hit and miss and difficult to enforce most. Sometimes people submit it. Sometimes they don't. Often they submit it if we request it. That's fine.

It was just the the CRU report that we approve every year.

You know? I think that's contextualized

as well. K. Yeah. I can't.

One thing you might consider is that the National Register is a key, and the building that qualifies when is on the National Register, you know, can keep that. And then the guy from Monaco got a MELZAC for Frank Lloyd Wright, and he paid 29,000,000 for it. But I think that's what you're looking for in terms of honoring the idea or pushing the idea of cultural tourism is the key. When we brought those guys in from Northern California architectural historians, those 37 people were really impressed with Salinas. They were you know, now now you're out there.

The lettuce curtain got lifted for those people three days into town, And we can't even get Salinas to give us the permission to put signs up

to where you go.

And that property has been worked on now for thirty years primarily with private money, and the signs were paid for with private money. So there's there's a disconnect. Okay.

So I'm trying to say anything else? I'll I'll get with you, and we'll set stuff up. And then first time I'm elected this year, so we need elections, right, next year, having next meetings?

Yes. We will schedule elections on the next meeting. And I was gonna add the Mills Act workshop to the next meeting agenda as well. Okay. For me to I we're I know you guys are slammed. I think we're a bit behind on minutes.

Mills Acts. I'm sorry. No problem. That was all.

So we're adjourned.

Just second. So let's just wanna update on that that house on Carmel out there that that became Feverst. Feverst. That is no longer considered. Okay.

So that's that's when we lost in the process. But that's it's all learning learning and and, you know, part of the problem is, you know, you can't keep track of what the people do. You know?

Well, most of that work too was done without permits. Yeah. It was during COVID when, you know, nobody was coming out. You know, it's hard

to keep with what and and even talking to the son of the architect, even what he told me wasn't accurate. So it's just hard to it's hard it's a difficult task when, you know, if people wanna disobey and they have a fence up. But that that's a good example too of, you know, when you say replace in kind. You know? Like, there's a fence.

We're gonna replace it in kind. You know, what if you accept that as an application? I mean, it doesn't work that way, you know, without a drawing or something that doesn't word-of-mouth does not work or descriptions or written descriptions do not work in many cases. So okay. Any other comments?

Okay. Thank you, everybody. Okay. Thank you. Contract just