Planning Board - Regular Meeting

So obvious. I was do what I did [laughter] to wear now language and I'm like I now not prior to us dating but I you know dug in a bit. You ready? I'm ready. Yep.

All right. Good evening everyone and welcome to the May 4th, 2026 regular meeting of the Township of Montlair Planning Board in accordance with the New Jersey Open Public Meetings Act, chapter 72 of New Jerseys Public Laws of 2025 and the amendments to section 12 of the Municipal Land Use Law. Adequate notice of this meeting has been provided by posting a copy of the notice on the first floor of this building and on the township of Montlair's official internet website and on the statewide legal notices listings of the state of the New Jersey Department of State. This meeting is being broadcast live on channel 34 and is streaming live and will be available on demand on YouTube. This meeting is a quasi judicial proceeding, meaning that the board has powers and procedures resembling a court of law, and we're obligated to objectively determine facts and draw conclusions from them in order to provide the basis of an official action. Any questions or comments must be limited to the issues of what the board may legally consider in reaching a decision, and the decorum appropriate to a judicial hearing must be maintained at all times. Fire exits are on my right, which is your left, and also the back of the room where you likely entered. And as to the order of this evening, each application hearing begins with the applicant or their attorney giving an overview of the application and the variances that are required, if any. We then hear from any expert witnesses the applicant may have to help explain the application and why variances are required. The board members may ask questions of the applicant, the attorney, and their expert witnesses. And if you're a member of the interested public, but not a witness in the case, you'll have two opportunities to speak. At the end of each witness's testimony, you'll be given the opportunity to ask the witness questions about his or her testimony. And that's not the time to tell us tell the board what you think of the application. That'll actually come at a later point in the hearing. And to ask questions, you'll have to come to the front of the room here, give us your

name and address, and then ask your questions related to the witness's testimony only. And again, that's the questions portion of of the public's input. And then after the applicant's witnesses, any objector and objector witnesses have been heard, members of the audience will then have their second opportunity to step forward. And at that time, you may express your opinions, positive or negative, about the application, and comments are generally limited to three minutes per person. And at the completion of the applicant's case, the objector's case if any, and public comment, the public hearing is closed and the board members discuss the case and vote. And at that time, you'll be able to listen to our discussion, but you will not be able to participate. And next on our agenda is roll call.

Mayor Baskerville present. Mr. Borchoff here. Mr. Campbell is excused. Councelor Damato here. Uh, Miss Gaines here. Mr. Graham is excused. Mr. Ian Wallally here. Miss Willis is excused. Mr. Orba, present. Uh, Miss Wallace here. And Chair Broaddock, I'm here. Okay. Next up is the swearing in of our board professionals. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you may give tonight will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Yes.

All right. That brings us to application 2945, 580 Valley Road, BG Valley LLC. Sure, sir.

Um, I just wanted to say that, uh, like the vice chair, I'm going to step off of this application and recuse. Uh, not for any one particular big reason, but for four or five very, you know, small ones. One, I will just say I do know and admire the applicant. Not in a way that I think would skewer my ability to do this. Um, we I also got several letters, two letters uh from people that I know and trust just asking as a courtesy to not judge on this. One was from Mr. Rubaki. Um, I think we may have seen this that was just saying that the township's uh representatives probably shouldn't sit on it because we had an interest in the in the right of way. I don't think that that really you saw that that but I really admire and also trust Mr. Drew Baky. Um, and then the Upper Monontlair Business Association, which I really try to have a good relationship with, asked me also just expressed basically concern and maybe confusion as to what the role of a counselor who's looking after them is can sit impartially on this. Fourth small reason I would just say I have a bit of a conflict in terms of ideologically with the idea of parking minimums and I have not really worked it out in my head. So for me to judge on a case that on an application that pivots on that just makes me a little it gives me a little pause. It's sort of like if you were against capital punishment and you were on a capital punishment case. And the fifth and probably most important reason is that everybody could probably use a break from me talking for a week. So with that, I'm gonna go sit in the audience and I wish you all well and thank you.

Sounds good. If anybody wants to slide up, feel free. But if you're set where you are, stay there. [laughter] Miss Tally, do we have more exhibits to mark before the applicant gets started? We have A17 is a letter from is your mic. Sorry.

A17 is a letter from Jamal Kaisle dated uh April 22nd, 2026. A18 are revised engineering drawings prepared by Jamal Kaisle dated April 22nd, 2026. A19, a revised architectural drawing submitted by Jal Kaisel, dated April 22nd, 2026. And A20 is an letter from board engineer uh Norberto Hernandez dated May 1st, 2026. Thank you, Mr. Trenilac. Good evening, everyone. Take you can finish writing. I'm just Yeah, I'm just Yeah, take your time. Yep.

Good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the board, um Alan Tremulac appearing again on behalf of the applicant BG Valley LLC. Um this is a continuation of the site plan application we started on March 23rd involving the property at 580 Valley Road with a proposal to construct a swim class uh swim quest children's school on the location. In addition to site plan approval, we have two variances for parking and impervious coverage. Um, what I plan to do this evening, um, I'm going to have, uh, Mr. Gova spend a a few minutes discussing the revised architectural plans, which they've been significantly revised with respect to the front facade of the building, which was a concern of a number of people, and I think uh, the revisions have addressed those concerns. Um, so I'm going to have him uh review those uh architectural uh design changes for the board. Following his testimony, I'm I intend to call our site engineer, Jerry Jacario, to review the site plan, address the engineering issues um associated with the application. And then finally for tonight, uh normally we would save our professional planner who in this case is Peter Steck uh to be our sort of cleanup hit or last witness, but uh I'm going to call him tonight because uh as so often happens with Mr. Stack, he's in demand and is unavailable for the next two or three board meetings. So we're going to call him out of turn tonight. Um, and then that's what we intend to present tonight. And then at the following hearing, whenever that's going to be, we'll have two additional witnesses, which will be testimony from one of the principles, one of the founding principles of Swim Class Quest

who will describe the operation and then uh finally testimony from our traffic engineer. So, okay. So, you're not going to finish tonight and so we that means we won't have public comment tonight on the overall application, but we will have public um comments for each witness. Sure. Questions? Questions? Sorry. Questions? Yes. Public questions of each witness. Thank you. Okay. So, um I'd like to [clears throat] recall Mr. Gova. Um David, you understand you're still under oath? I do.

Okay. So, subsequent to the first hearing on this application in March, um did you work together with the project architect to revise the architectural plans for the proposed building, particularly the front facade? We did. Okay. Can I'd like you to review the plan revisions for the board if you could be helpful to Janice. Do we have the I don't think we have this slide because I didn't bring the the digital slide for this. Jenna's house. What? What do you want to bring? The architectural plans. Four sheets. You can bring up the cover sheet. Yeah, you can bring up the cover sheet. If we can bring this one.

Yeah, she she she should have. I mean, that's Okay. Um, as Mr. Tremulac stated, um, we made some revisions to the building. Um, as he also stated, we're requesting two variances on this application. Uh but there were a number of design related concerns as to the uh the circulation within the building, the visibility from Valley Road, the activation of Valley Road, some of which rose to the level of design waiverss in the past. um mostly driven by an initial conversation with the fire department, how they wanted the building to sit on the site, how it would work best for them to be able to uh ingress and egress out of the rear of their site. Um, and so hearing that conflict, hearing that there was uh, you know, a want from from the fire department to have the building sit and face a certain way and have traffic circulate a certain way, but also

hearing the concerns from this board and from from Miss Tally about uh, what that does to the street facing activation, we sat down and rethought how this building behaves uh, on its interior and as a result there were changes made to the exterior of the building to accommodate those changes. Um, most importantly, uh, not a lot of the programming on the inside of the building has changed, but where it occurs in the building has changed. Um, so looking at the, uh, actual layout, which I think you guys have in your packet, um, we moved the public facing parts of this, uh, of this operation to Valley Road. Uh and we also made a connectivity between the rear vestibule and the front vestibule so that um the entirety of the public facing operation is now visible from Valley Road. So the the the southernmost storefront [music] on Valley Road is now a true entrance just as the rear entrance is. We still hope to drive traffic through the site in the way that we had uh planned previously and our civil engineer Mr. Ario is going to testify to that uh and how that works. But what we had previously was a situation where there was really one main entrance and one kind of auxiliary door. It's now a a double loaded um uh lobby where you can come from either side of the lobby. You can see the entire lobby from the Valley Road entrance and from the rear. uh including all the the things that make this lively and interesting. The blow bar, the coffee area, the seating area for parents, um the koi pond, the fish tank, all the things that are the reason that I believe the the master plan and the ordinance want activated storefronts. We tried to make sure those all had viewpoints from Valley Road. So

the the first major change is that this whole corridor goes the length of the building and it's now you can enter there, you can enter here and you can meet uh a representative uh on site. Uh the second thing that it we were able to do once we accomplished this from a layout perspective is we were able to eliminate any any opacity on the front windows. The front windows were originally partially opaque so that you weren't you to discourage someone from being able to see directly into the pool without kind of standing on their tippy toes. That also created a design waiver because um we want transparent storefronts in our in our upper Montlair business district. Creating this separation and this lobby area between Valley and the pool itself allows for that front facade to be fully transparent. we don't have to film the uh the window in any way and people will be able to see into all the things that you want them to see in under under uh in in the upper Montlair um business district. It also gave us the ability to add more glass on the front to hit the 60% uh glass requirement on the facade. So the glass grew uh vertically on the front facade and as a result the overall wave and the the the other building materials that are on the front shrunk. So the the wave became smaller. The canopy and awning was raised. glass goes up further. And we've eliminated the design waiverss as a result of this without without meaningfully changing how the operation works on the inside despite changing kind of where it it it all happens on the inside of the building. Uh we think we were able to accomplish that uh objective. And finally, we we for consistency sake, which was from a couple members of the public, I don't remember if anybody from the board asked this question, but the

uh the south facade, sorry, the the east facade, the the facade by Talbitz uh now has the same wave detail as the opposite side by the fire department. So on both sides of the building, there's the same dimensionality and the same architectural intent. Whereas on the front uh that that uh paneling and that that wave detail was drastically reduced and replaced with more transparent glass to create a more of an activated uh uh front facade on Valley Road. Um those are the bulks of bulk of the changes. Materials didn't change. Storefront materials didn't change. uh just an interior layout that gave us the ability to uh remove some of the design waiver requests uh that were being triggered by operational uh conditions inside the building that was important to to the applicant and that's that's how we were able to accomplish those changes.

So your overall objective in revising the plans with the architect were to attempt to bring the project into compliance with the commercial design standards that recited in That's right. Miss Tally's memorandum. Okay. And in your opinion, have you achieved that? In my opinion, we've achieved that. Okay. Um, just a couple of questions. You mentioned the side facades. Is there any any change to the rear facade? No change to the rear facade.

Okay. Um, you talked about the visibility to the interior of the building uh resulting from the elimination of the opaque uh film and larger windows. Um there's also um a portion of the front facade where there's actually a a small window display that and that's the southerntherly side. the southern side. I when looking at Talbitz next door, they had uh you know visibility into the front and on the side they had a merchandise display like a shadow box created in their um in their space and so we took advantage of that for where we were left with restrooms that couldn't have visibility into those restrooms. So, a small section of the the southern or southeastern facade has the same shadow box, the same kind of dimensionality where we can put swim uh equipment, bathing suits, goggles, things like that that represent the small retail component of this space, but similar to uh to the towbits. And after looking at the actual commercial design standards under that context, um, transparency on the storefronts is defined as either transparency into the store or to a a a uh a shadow box merchandise display. So it it still removes the the the waiver request, but yes, there's a small section that is reserved for uh for display purposes that acts more like a shadow box than straight through. And that was a result of of of bathroom placement and uh and some other things that we couldn't solve for in a different place.

And last thing I would just point out or ask you to discuss, it appears to me that the signage on the front of the building, it's number one been relocated and also reduced in size. Correct. I I don't think the signage itself was reduced in size. is still a conforming sign, but it was relocated to be above the canopy underneath the uh underneath the the smaller wave uh facade. Smaller wave component. Okay. But you believe that the sign is still the same size originally designed for my mistake. Okay. Um that's all I have. Mr. Chairman, questions from the board. Miss Tally,

I I just are um Mr. Trenmbbulak, are you gonna have testimony from the architect or this evening or is this this I mean if there are questions that I mean okay if we need to we will then I'll ask Mr. Denova the question I see you've added an interior wall that surrounds the pool and that kind of will be the separation between the uh the the window glass at the front and the activity in the pool. Okay. Okay. And that was that's a new addition to the plan. Well, it was it was one wall because the pool took up the entire northern part of the of the building prior and all of the public facing activities happened on the west and on the the south,

right? And so now that L is is reversed. Okay. And so the the wall isn't different. It's just in a different place. Okay. Thank you. Hi. Um, a few questions on the get my slides right on the south side. You were I thought you were saying there was some visibility into the koi pond, but I don't see from the elevation on the south side. I just see a brick wall and the cladding system. The the south side is on a property line, so we can't put any glass on the south wall itself. That wall needs to have a fire rating.

Okay. So you can see into the lobby where you can see the things like the fish tank and the koi pond from Valley Road. But the south facade itself, we are unable from a building code perspective to put glazing on that on that wall. And then on the how about on the then the north side? Similar similar node. The north side has uh Oh, I see. changing things occurring all along that wall that that require privacy. Um it is far enough away from the the lot that we could have some relation but it doesn't lend itself to the operation itself.

Um second of all, are you committing then to keep when the uh business is in operation to keep at all times that front door unlocked and active? Yes.

Okay. Um, thirdly, I, you know, appreciate that and it was something I was personally concerned about. Um, it still feels like the front entrance could feel a little more grand or welcoming. It it kind of blends in with the storefront system, whether you know you chose to put your sign elsewhere, but I I I feel like the the front door looking at the rendering, uh, to me still doesn't it's still it's a, you know, a single door. It's a narrow I mean it's probably ADA compliant but it doesn't seem like a very big impressive entrance to a business. It just seems like a door in a glass storefront. So I would request that you consider you know and you know this comes directly from the zoning that should building entrances should be emphasized with distinctive architecture and treatment. So I think the emphasize part is lost in your design. One of the um one of the things we've spoken about since the submission had gone in was actually adding a sign band over that front door where the sign moves so that it's more visible for walking traffic that actually would move from being under being over the canopy. Yeah.

To being on like a metal band above the storefront, a still conforming sign.

Um we did look at different options for how this we have 61% transparency now. So, we don't have a lot of room to go down in terms of other materials that we can use on that front. We're just at that that minimum threshold for not needing a design waiver. We aren't opposed to a design waiver, but we wanted to to be there. So, if there was an interest in having a different material composition on that side, just I'm just saying we would it would necessitate it would it would start to necessitate a design waiver unless we accomplished it by doing like a metal band over the glass with that with that sign there, which uh which is something that we're we're talking about internally and would likely be part of a revised submission if this board felt it was appropriate.

I would encourage that uh where your sign is now. It's lost from the pedestrian realm and I know um you know it's nice to be able to walk by a business and see the sign at eye a little above eye level as opposed to where it's now. So yeah, I would encourage thinking that through a little more. Sure. Where it is now was placed kind of for visibility from the big intersection, right? Like coming from Belleview, coming south on Valley as a as a as a vehicle, you can see it. Um but it's something that we are not wed to and that um we may you know with with with this board's guidance we're happy to either make it a condition or happy to just move it in a in a resubmitted.

Yeah I I would consider some level of signage for the pedestrian level but thank you. Sure. Other questions from the board? I think that's an excellent idea that the door needs to be emphasized and a simple way of doing that would be to just change the the material not the glass but just the framing for the door material so that it announces itself. It's more visible. Right now it does just blend in with the store glass. So that's just one suggestion. Sure. Thanks.

Yeah, I I I would agree with all that's been said here, and that's the the logo for swim class seems lost on the rendering, and that's across the street looking presumably from eye level up. It's just kind of hidden behind that awning. Um, I had a question about the light that's is there a light under the awning? And I don't know if that's a question for you or Mr. Jacerio, who will probably cover more lighting. There is an overhead light over the door. Mr. area is going to cover the site plan stuff. So, not not architecture specifically.

There's a light over the door to for for you know overhead uh uh illumination. And then these sconces are meant to be the the you know safety lighting that illuminate what's underneath that that uh that overhead with the four sconces on the front. Are the four sconces modeled in the lighting plan? No. Mr. Mr. Jacerio shaking his head because that's kind of where I'm going with with some of these questions trying to understand you know on the lighting plan and again if you want to defer defer to Mr. Jerio that's fine but the lighting plan basically shows one light on the front of the building and not the four sconces and the modeling for foot candles um across the property.

If if there's an inconsistency if that between the civil and the architectural we'll make sure to address it. Okay. So that one main light is under the canopy. Okay. Thank you. Or it's intended to be whether or not it made it to the civil. Yes. Because obviously it wouldn't illuminate anything if it was above the awning. Right. So that that's really where I was going with the changes because I couldn't frankly tell from the rendering. Any other questions from the board? Questions from the public for this witness about his testimony this evening? If you have them, step right on up to lectern if you would give us your name and address and ask your questions of uh this witness. Hi, Jane.

And we'll have to make sure. Marian, can you hear me? Yeah. I don't know if it's on us. Unless Rick will help. We We'll get you covered here. I I remember that from the last hearing. We're having an issue with one of the micro now it's on Jane Hansen Marian Road. Thank you. Um uh I had that same question about the new door about the the pedestrian entrance on Valley Road. I noticed from your plan though that there isn't a reception desk at that door and so I was wondering if that is something that would be added. So the door would be staffed.

We don't plan on adding a second reception desk. The concern with the layout previously was that the place to bring people in from Valley Road wasn't visible from the reception desk. So in this instance, they're coming in straight on to the to the existing reception desk. And so that that reception desk will be able to service people at minimum see them and guide them towards So So your hope is that they would wander down the hall and get to the the other end. This is still the location for for checkin. Um but we're not we're not um we're not uh adding another receptionist. So this this is my concern. It's more an operational concern actually than this. But it'll be a question. Okay. A [laughter] question. It's the it's question.

Will anybody be monitoring the door to make sure that the people who come in they'll be able to see they'll be able to see this door? And they couldn't in the previous uh the previous iteration which was a concern of mine. All right. And one other question. Um, I can't tell from this what the width of the building is. The width of the building, my copy is so small. 75 ft 10 in. Okay. Thank you. Sure. Hi. Hi.

My name is Geraldine Leer. I live at South Park Street, 48 South Park Street in Mont Clair. Um, am I correct? I'm having trouble. I'm old and I [laughter] couldn't see on my cell phone and they've taken this down. Um, when I am inside the building, am I able to see I'm in front of the dry bar? You're in front of the dry bar. Valley Road, am I able to see into the pool? If you are between the street and the pool in the area where the dry bar is, you can see into

because you mentioned in your testimony last week or whenever it was that um you were trying to protect the privacy of little swimmers. So now you have an unmanned entrance. [laughter] The whoever that is, and I assume you're speaking about nefarious individuals, can take a right rather than going straight to the whole opposite end of the building to the reception desk. Somebody could take a right. Who's manning that part? And you're offering him a restroom, he or she, a restroom on the way in. they can take a right and see right into the pool. They don't have to stand on their tippy toes. And it's

I mean the the distance between where you come in now and the reception desk is one. It's a it's a straight line. So you're going to see everybody that comes in and it's you know not that different than the width the length of this building. Operationally at least my partners at Swim, we went over this at at length. Don't see a concern with people coming in making a right and simply not knowing that that ever happened. people would come into this and check in. This is also their plan. You know, there will be parents there. There will be other people within that lobby. Right. But I don't think it's the parents is it the parents responsibility to man the whole Valley Road side of your operation.

It's it's not the parents responsibility, but I think they add a second layer of, you know, deterrence for someone to to be we're talking about nefarious people here. You can see this entrance where people come in. It would be you can see it, but you're also dealing with that person doesn't have business in the space. I understand that. But if you are the young woman or man at the reception desk and you're dealing with people checking in, people asking about classes, people saying they lost their swim goggles, people um wanting a makeup class. I'm not unless you are you going to have cameras? There will be cameras. Sure. Mhm. I don't think they're gonna Will they be able to watch them 100% of the time?

I I I don't know how they're going to watch the cameras, but what you're suggesting is is an issue that would happen in any building of this size in this orientation. It's a staffing issue. It was of utmost concern to the Swim Quest operators. And the only way we were able to tie the front and the rear facade together was to create this corridor of visibility. Mhm. Doing that I believe addresses your concern. I understand you remain concerned, but I believe that it does address that concern because there are people here that can now see the comingings and goings of both entrances. And the operator will appear at the at a subsequent hearing to testify presumably can give some testimony about this issue. Yes. Yep.

And what is a dry bar? Dry bar is where they dry their hair. Wow, you're really [laughter] how creative it is. I mean, it's a it's a there's literally a bar full of hair dryers and it's where they dry their hair. Okay. So, we're Okay, I'll give my statement later. Yep. [laughter] That'll be at the next hearing. Okay. Let me just make sure I don't have anything else. Why are you not putting it if you have an entrance and what what is to say that this owner

after a okay you owner Mr. owner after a month in business decide you don't like that people using it looks like an entrance. It's been enhanced to look like an entrance. What is to prevent you from putting a sign on the door saying please enter in the back?

I once a building is built and operating. I I don't want to be disingenuous and say that there's no ability for anybody to deviate from what they applied to, but it would be equally as easy for Janice to call me and say that I have I violated what I I offered to do and what I put on the record would be our operation. So the the trust in this comes from the meeting minutes and the resolution and I fully anticipate that this board would make it a requirement for me perhaps conditionally that this entrance be open as whenever this entrance is open and we're prepared to commit to that.

And do you think that people on um knowing that there's an entrance on Valley Road, people double park in front of the Starbucks, people double park in front of the post office. What's to say that I I remain concerned about that. That's why we had the entrance in the rear. But I'm trying to do I remain concerned as well between the two and it seems to me that it's you're trying to put a very large unsafe square into a small round hole. I wish I want every child to learn. Is that the question? Is that the question that are you putting a Do we all want children to learn to swim? Yes. [laughter] Well, about his testimony.

Yeah. This this is a a compromise. I mean, this is a compromise between two objectives that it seemed as though were in conflict with one another, which was a public safety objective from the fire department and for parking and ingress and and and ingress and from a planning perspective, which is to activate the storefronts and create a lively, vibrant, you know, front of house. As a result, we tried to create something that married as much of those two things as we could together. And uh and this is this is how we got there. Um I don't know that there's a way to activate the front, keep it open, and simultaneously promise everybody that no one will ever double the park. I don't think that that's I I I hope that doesn't happen. We're going to do everything in our power not to make that happen. But this is a compromise of two competing objectives.

Do you think it would be wiser to try and put a swim school with people entering and exiting every 30 minutes in a less congested place? I don't think people entering and exiting every 30 minutes is unique to a swim school. Um but I think that the whole class at a time will be entering and exiting. No,

I mean there's question there's lunch time, there are appointments, there's yoga classes. I don't think it's unique to this operation. In fact, I think this operation from a per on a per square foot basis is far less intense than other things that could occur on this. So my answer is is no. I don't think that this is the wrong place for for this type of use. Do I disagree with you? Yes. [laughter] Well, you have to ask him questions. You can't ask yourself questions. You tell I disagree with you. Tell you disagree. Can I can I relate it to that same testimony? Can you speak very briefly to because you mentioned the classes? How many uh students are likely to be per

That's going to come from from the swim quest operator who again we had to switch things up tonight a little bit on our order. He's going to come in and talk about how many classes, maximum number of kids in a class, number of instructors per student. Got it. I'll wait for that. I called the swim quest in Milbour and got those numbers. But we can't I can't put them in a as a question. Correct. It's [laughter] a lot. Well, they'll have testimony what they expect here. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

Hi. Uh my name is Lee San Rener. I'm in Godfrey Road, walking distance from you your project. I had a question about the exterior lighting. Um I on the plan it mentioned LED lighting which on the first two uh renderings it shows the LED lighting outlining the wave design. On the April um rendering it sort of looks like LED lighting is still um outlining the waves on the side of the building. But is it also doing that on the front of the building? It

it is. we were in a a time crunch to get a submission in on time for the the the you know requirement to be submitted to the board. So we didn't do further dusk renderings that show that elimination but it's proposed under the the wave on each.

Okay. Um because I know I had read the comments by the historic preservation commission which specifically said they didn't like the LED lighting but why did you decide not to respond to that concern? I I don't know that I specifically intended not to respond to that concern. Um there is ambient LED lighting pervasive in the upper Montlair zone. It's not a specific uh historical preservation concern in any of the documents. They didn't love it, but we changed the facade kind of dramatically enough that I felt as though that that it remains appropriate for what we how the building has evolved since that meeting. Okay, thank you.

Sure.

Hi. Hello. My name is Amarie Nardone. I've been a business owner in Monontlair for 40 years. Ann Marie Nardone. I do not live in Monontlair, but I have worked here since I was 21. That's only like five years ago. Um, I'm not real good about putting it into questions, so stop me if I try your best if you can and I'll help coach you through it. I wrote a lot of stuff down. Um, I do own a business right across the street from where this is going to be. And obviously we know parking is a thing, but we're not talking about that. Um, what I would want to know is that do you live in Monontlair? I do. Okay. Do you feel that that look of that looks historic? I I don't.

Okay. Cuz I'm not going to do that. Thank you. Um, so you're doing fine so far. Okay. Um, ha, do you think that there's been thoughtfulness in sustainability and how this is going to affect the other small businesses in the area? I I have thought about how it affects the other small businesses. I'm not sure I understand your question about sustainability.

How do you think that it's going to affect the way the other businesses are are run with the congestion? Can I say that? you want. Um I there I have a difference of opinion than some people who have who have Sorry. Thank you. Um I think this is a great ancillary use in the upper Montlair business district. I think that what it does is I mean the idea of why we redesigned these facads to be more activated and engaging is because the idea behind the the master plan of the upper Montlair business district is to drive more people to the upper Montlair business district. So when we talk about how it's the yogi barism nobody goes there anymore it's too busy

right? what we when we talk about what our intent is here, it's to drive families who are teaching their kids to school to a place where they are serviced by the other businesses that are in town. I think it's part of the reason people will choose to send their kids to this swim school as opposed to a swim school out of town or in a different location. And I think that in practicality it will do that. I think that people will uh whether or not it's during the class itself. I've seen comments that no parent is going to leave the class or whether or not it's before and after. I have a niece and a nephew. I don't have kids, but I don't leave an activity with my 10-year-old and my 12-year-old niece and nephew without consuming something. I have to buy something when I'm with them. And the idea is that this will hopefully and and I mean that genuinely hopefully drive people to your business and to other people's business in town or sorry in upper Montlair as a byproduct of bringing their kids to swim here and that that's why people will choose the location itself.

Okay. Is is this a franchise? It's not a franchise, but there are more than one location. There are one. So they're individually owned, but it's kind of like owned by the same the same company. The same company owns them. Okay. So, kind of like a franchise. Um, kind of. Not saying it is. Not not a franchise, though. [laughter] Why would you put something here if you knew that it didn't fit the zoning to begin with? Why would you put something here if it didn't fit the zoning to begin with? Like, why why to have to get a variance if you know you really really need one?

I I don't need a use variance. So it does fit the approved uses in the zone. Uh it is similar to other uses in the zone. There are not just children, not just educational play centers, which this falls under, of which there's at least one with Kidville and other ones that have a similar operational behavior in that zone. But there are also other class-based uh uh uh businesses in that area for adults. There's yoga studios, there's dance studios, there's other things that operate similarly to this. Um, so I I I just I disagree with the premise that this is not not approved in this zone. It requires two variances. One of which nearly anything that went on here would require, which is the impervious coverage, right? And the second is parking, which again, many businesses I mean will have more parking spaces on site than nearly any business in Upper Monontlair.

But we can't talk about parking, right? Well, I mean, he it's it's questions about his testimony. He did raise I didn't read the whole thing about the minutes for the last. How many parking spaces will there be? There would be 11 on site and closing the driveth through closing the second driveway, the second ingress or egress onto Valley Road would allow us to put uh I'm going to let Jerry testify to this. I think it's one or two more municipal spaces on on uh on the front of the building towards the south. Okay. Um you want to Okay. Will the classes be overlapping? The classes themselves won't overlap there.

Not necessarily the classes themselves, but will kids still be there when the other classes come in? So, there'll be double the amount. I know we don't know the amount of people yet, but there'll be double the amount at some time. I think that's fair. Okay. Um, coffee bar. Did you say there'd be a coffee bar? There's a coffee station. Okay. For for parents and for people, instructors. Um, is it really just about filling the space? I know that you own other properties in Monontlair. That's wonderful. A lot of, you know, development in places that really needed it, but is it just about filling that space? Couldn't you thought of a better thing to put there that would fit the fit the area better? Let's put it that way. I I didn't think of a better thing.

Okay. So, this was from the get-go. And now, if this doesn't make it [snorts] as a swim school once it's built, Yes. Um, I testified in the previous hearing, I know you said I was not here, that the building was designed in a way where it can be converted to retail use without tearing it down and and starting over. Um, retail use that would require site plan approval from me. So, I would have to call, but you would still keep it. You could still keep this building. Not me. You You would keep it or would you sell it? I I I can't hypothesize into Well, I'm saying if it fails if it fails, you know what I'm saying? you know where where would you stand? That's my I have no intentions of selling you.

Okay. Um that was about the building. Um the other thing about where the people were talking about the somebody being there obviously a lot of little kids hanging around. Um I know you saying a lot of this will be the instructors or the architect or all the other people that have to answer the questions that obviously are not here or are not going to answer tonight. So I'm assuming we're going to have another meeting. There's going to be another [laughter] Yes. Okay. Um, that's all I have. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Nice to meet you, too.

Hi, my name is Jerry Bloom. I live on North Mountain Avenue, not far from where you're going to have this. Um, I just wanted to do a couple of follow-up questions on the dry bar. Sure. So I gather the dry bar was put in because the town asked you to have more activity seen from the street through the window. Was that No, it was in the It was in the previous iteration but not visible from the front. It was in the back of the building. Right. So you but you needed to put something in the windows that was active. We moved it. Right. So and when I first heard you mention Dry Bar, I kind of thought it was a non-alcoholic beverage thing. [laughter] Um, and then you explained it's kids blowing their hair dry,

parents blowing their kids hair dry, and kids blowing their hair dry. It exists in all the other Swim Quest locations. It does. This is something that you have at other locations. I I'm not a partner in the other location, but my partest have this particular kids drying their hair in the front window. Yes. Okay. And again, this was to make the town more comfortable that there was an interesting activity, I guess, um, in the windows. Moving it was so that we could remove what was an opaque film on on a percentage of the glass. Yeah. And we're we no longer need that opaque film because we moved operations that were internal from the rear to the front.

So, we didn't add anything for this. It's just a shift in how the building operates, right? But now all of the public all of the public parts of the building that are not access controlled like the pool, right, are visible from Valley, including the lobby with the koi pond and the fish tank as well as this area here which includes a dry bar, coffee station and you know parent waiting area and things of that sort. Interesting. Thank you.

Thank you. Uh, good evening. My name is My name is Frank Revaki, 398 Upper Mountain Avenue in Montlair. Um, I think I'm prohibited from complimenting you. Only questions, so I'll stick to questions. Thank you. Um, you know the drill here.

Yes. Thank you. Um, I'm sorry I missed the beginning of the meeting, so if I cover ground that you've already covered. Um, but I still need to know. Uh, could we start with the front of the building and the sign location that I saw on the April submission? Is the sign still there?

So, this the the resubmission uh includes the sign in the location that is above the awning on the upper part of the building under the wave. However, since that submission, which had to be in, I don't know, 10 days, 10 days ahead of the meeting, there's been some internal discussion that uh Miss Wallace also brought up, which was trying to emphasize the southernmost storefront and differentiate it from the rest of the storefront. And one of the ideas was to bring that sign, put a sign band over the glass, like two rails of metal, and put the sign there. And my partners, the operators on this are amendable to that. and I imagine it will be part of a revised submission before our our next meeting.

Um, would you be concerned that having the sign on the left side of the building by the entrance will indicate to people that the uh I'm sorry. Oh, where did we get this from? Like 1970. The I our normal microphone broke earlier today, so we're that's what we have. Uh, if you need to slide it out of the holder if that's easier for you. Thank you. Yeah,

nothing's easy with me. Um, thank you. Um, are you concerned that having the sign ban over the door or to the left of the door towards Talbitz would indicate to visitors that the Talbot's driveway is the entrance driveway? I had not been concerned until you brought that up, but it's a it's a reasonable question. Okay. Um, going back to the sign itself, uh, where it's proposed, is that I pointed this out, but is that on the parapit?

It I think it's underneath where the actual parapit starts from a height perspective, but um, there's no differentiation on the parapit from the exterior wall, but you can only see it from the interior. Um but the code says yeah I mean again I believe [clears throat] this will be amended before our okay so it won't it won't be in conflict you won't need a variance or a waiver to put it there because it's on the parapit or part of it's on the parapit

assuming it moves from the parapit assuming that it's on the parapit currently uh it will be revised not to be or or we will ask for a waiver if there's a reason that we need to but right now we're this is a point of conversation internally that uh that I think will changed to to address your concern. Is the canopy something that you find an enhancement or it's a response to the HBC that you put the canopy on the front the front full length of the building?

I think it's both. Um I I you know one of the uh conversations with this architect when we started this architect has uh done other work for swim quest in in the past and starts with a you know a prototype and what their vision is. Um one of the comments that I had to to the architect when we started was to create dimensionality on that front facade. We talked about base detail. We talked about there being dimension. Um, I think the canopy growth from what it originally started at was more of a reaction to the HPC, but I also think that it enhanced the building. So, I'd like to take credit for it as if it were my idea from the beginning to have it designed exactly this way,

but it was uh its current form was uh started with with my my input and and resolved itself with the HPC's input. Okay. And then the columns on the side of the build, the imitation columns on the side of the building. Same answer. I I you know, I liked the idea of the dimensionality, but the No, no, I wasn't asking the same question. The HBC pointed it out. Um, when you turn the corner, is there any um similar treatment on the corner of the building? If you turn to either north facade or the south facade, is it only on the east facade?

It's only on the east facade. So, it's it's architecturally a device for the front of the facade. It's not for something in the building. Okay.

Um the would you consider putting your signage in the back is simple compressed font lettering very longitudinal. Would you consider some kind of effect across the awning pin mounted or mounted in some way um a smaller scale? It probably wouldn't be more than a couple, you know, four or five inches high, but would you consider that as an alternative to addressing the entrance issue being left or right? Okay.

And then the window treatment. Um hated. But getting to the questions, um, are you concerned about the northeast corner of the building where the window seems the window, whatever you call the system is so close to the curb considering weather conditions. Would your is that something that is desirable or is it a reaction to having symmetry across the front of the building? Other words, your your the bottom of your window is what maybe 6 in off the ground at that point.

I mean, it it is it's it's tempered glass. We we have this condition in other sites in Montlair where there's a very small base detail, some sort of masonry base detail and glass, you know, close to the ground. Um, but again, a lot of a a lot of the window sizing was in reaction to the 60% requirement. No, we're going to get there on that one. Um, architecturally, is there any building in the upper Montlair business district that has that kind of treatment so close where the glass is so close to the ground architecturally? Most of them have some kind of base, middle. I don't know the answer well enough to to answer that.

Um, the 60% I pushed in the last meeting for more glass. You kind of took it to a whole another level. Um, how did you interpret the 60% ordinance? In other words, let me let me be clear. You interpret it the entire facade had to be 60%. or the pedest for clarification and Janice confirmed that it is the entire facade has to be that's how it's written. I understand that.

Can you shed Can I ask another question? Can you shed any light on how the town views that ordinance or how the planning department views that ordinance because maybe 50% of Upper Montlair would comply with that ordinance on a good day. I mean mostly and the reason why and let me just elaborate why I'm asking it that way is the 60% from practical point of view is for a pedestrian experience and usually it's below a canopy or below a signban. This ordinance seems to say if you're three stories of commercial you have to have 60% all the way up to the top. Right.

That's correct. I don't know if your microphone's on Miss Tally, but yes, that's correct. And then the way around it would be a minor waiver. It just basically the board would say in this design waiver. It's not a big deal. We just don't see it see it as applicable. Correct. I didn't hear that. The 60% does not need to be applicable for the entire facade. That would be the choice of the planning board if they asked for I can't I can't tell you what the choice of if the applicant asked for a waiver which which they did at the last hearing. I mean they were talking about a design waiver.

Right. Right. But if they asked for a waiver still asked for the waiver but it was they had 60% below the sign band below the canopy that stole a waiver that they would be asking for. Correct. That's correct. That's where you should go. Um, hard to imagine a historic building with 60% of the entire facade being glass.

Any contemporary building would not meet that standard. Gap, supermarkets, CVS. [clears throat] Anyway, um the wave, do you feel that wave has kind of like lost its relevancy being compressed? I don't. Okay. Um would you consider if you could get a design waiver reverting back to a lower level of glass, pushing the canopy back down and increasing the size of the wave? If you could get the design waiver for the class,

I would consider it. I would hope that the board would ask me that rather than me go redesign the building again. Yeah. Four times the charm. But yes, I would consider that.

Okay. As far as the LED issue, the way you can't tell in this drawing, this rendering, but in in the prior renderings, you have a distinctly different wave pattern on the front than you now have on the sides. And I don't know if you have one on the back. I think you have one on the back. And there multiple waves. And and then you have this middle wave that kind of cuts up. Well, you have two things. You have the the leftmost wave that's doing a double dip with LED under that. Then you have a middle wave with another LED back lighting and then the final wave that's truncated and compressed on the corner there for I'm not sure why it's even there. Um, would you consider redesigning or reconfiguring the waves, especially the leftmost, the Talbot side wave, so that you could eliminate part of that LED treatment in the middle of the building. So, it wasn't so busy. It was a cleaner, simpler look that you could still have the LVD underlighting, but not cutting up to the roof line to the uh I I would consider that. Okay. Um, and I think that's it. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Can I ask a question? Sure. Um, so going back to the lighting, it's Can we either you're submitting something different, but if you're submitting this again, can we get a more accurate representation of how the lighting will look? We could do a desk rendering. Thank you.

Hello. Is that working? Okay. Yep. My name is Laura Elmasi and I live at 33 North View Avenue, which is about a block away from this proposed project. Um, I actually only learned about this detail this evening, but I'm just curious to know, first of all, Mr. Gova, are you a U parent?

I'm not. Have you thought about the notion that um small children are going to be on display in the front window of your property getting themselves like like drying their hair and performing kind of like personal caretaking activities.

We we have I mean that that was what originally this dry bar was not visible from the street. The dry bar was in the rear and the pool was slid up to the front. The pool is 4 feet down in grade from this. That's why there are steps down. Um there were comments and questions at the last meeting about how to activate the front. There are only two things that occur in the public facing parts of this building. There's a lobby for parents to come and check in. There's a place for parents to to to wait for their kids. And there's an area for kids to to dry their hair. um the changing rooms are not visible from the street and they're not facing the street. So there's no potential for those changing rooms to open accidentally and there be visibility to the street. So kids when they're drying their hair, it's it's I I don't know that that's different than like super cuts or any of the places that that have, you know, that have open windows and have kids getting their haircut or drying their hair. This is more of a place for parents to be while their kids are in the school. And there is a short period of time where kids are getting ready and a short period of times when kids are getting back into their into their daily, you know,

I wasn't touching it and back to leaving the pool. And both of those things are now occurring more in the public view than they were previously.

Um, trying to think how to phrase this. I hope you're willing to consider that um there might be parents that are uncomfortable with encouraging their kids to engage in personal um appearance related or grooming activities in a public window. Um and I don't know may I guess my question is can you see how that might make someone feel uncomfortable? I I I [laughter] spoke at length at the last meeting about some of the privacy concerns. This solves the privacy concerns from our side operationally because you're not seeing into the pool, which is what uh would have been the case if we had if we had taken off that.

I hope I guess have you considered that parents may just generally not want their children on display? I I guess I have considered that. I don't think that this is this is not an invasive thing that you're looking at. Have you considered [laughter] I don't have any more that there um there may be people who who who disagree with your perspective on that. I I imagine there are people Thank you. I noticed that there's one shower. Is that true? There is one shower. Okay. I can wait till the operation team is up and talk about that.

Hi, I'm Alexis Bureick. I live at 47 Forest Street. Um, I'm the parent of very young children who are probably like the target for this. Um, I also have a child that attends Bloom. So, I am in this space uh several times a week uh and have some concerns about the area for that. But um learning more about what's actually going to be inside the building um could you describe a little bit more about the locker room situation and how what what is available within the locker rooms? Is it separated by genders? Is there an all family locker room? How does that work within the space? I'm going to let the the the operating partner of the swim school uh corporate entity who's going to be operating this one speak at the next meeting and he's going to go through all the details from check-in to number of kids in a class to how their other locations operate and he can testify to that more than I can.

Okay. Thank you. Um, in terms of the building itself, how how stroller friendly is it and how much has that played into the design? It's very stroller friendly if you use the rear entrance. The front entrance does have a grade change that's accomplished by stairs. Oh. So, the rear entrance, which is on the parking side of it, is the ADA entrance to the building, which simultaneously serves to to accommodate parents with strollers. Um, but strollers are an operational thing that Swim Quest deals with at their other locations and it was one of the uh one of the things we you know talked about early on in this process with the architect.

Okay, sounds good. Um, and then in terms of the actual flow of traffic around the building, I'm new to all of this and learning. Has there been a full traffic study done prior to all of your submissions for permits and things like that of the entire area and not just your physical site or has it the traffic study been sort of only about the site itself? So, it's a it's a parking study that we did. Um there we're not asking for a use variance and as a result of not asking for a use variance it being an approved use in the zone. The assumption is that the ancillary streets that service this this lot, right,

can accommodate the uses that are approved in the zone. So there's not a traffic study per se on on on traffic. Parking study does address the number of cars that are anticipated as part of the parking study, right? And that will be presented at the at the next meeting. Okay. Um, in terms of circulation around the site, if you hang out, our civil engineer is is up next and he's going to talk about the physical aspects of the site as a whole. Okay. Um, but, uh, I I hope that answers your question.

It sort of does. I just as like a followup, so more philosophical question, but how does parking for one area assume that the other areas can absorb the parking? the parking part of it that's covered in our in our will be covered by our parking experts. He's done an analysis of existing lots, capacity of those lots, times, peak times, during school, off school, all of those things. Okay? And he'll he'll testify what his findings are when he's up at the next meeting. Okay. I just I wanted to be clear that there's a differentiation between that study and a traffic stud.

Right. Yes. Um but yes, we we are going to talk about the availability of spaces uh at various times during the day, at various days during the week, and at various months during the week. Okay. So, there's been a more holistic study of the area with numbers and data and all that kind of good stuff. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, if I could just quickly, will you be submitting the that parking study to the board for review prior to the next hearing? We will be. Okay. Thank you. Thanking. Yep.

Good evening. Uh I'm Lenny Anninger. I live on Cooper Avenue. For 40 years, I've been pretty straight shot down my block to see your building. Uh first of all, I want to thank you all because you volunteer a lot of time for our community and I really appreciate it. I have at times been more involved in community. Um, you just made a comment about that the ancillary community will be able to support this. I just said we we we've studied it. I I'm not I'm not going to testify to the actual board itself. Okay. Well, I beg to differ. It's we're packed.

It's this is time for questions.

Okay. Um, so I went online to see what the agenda was tonight and this meeting was not on the agenda and I really asked that you list because how else will we know when we can come? I had to call the office and they said, "Oh, it's the wrong meeting on the line and it didn't list this particular property." And then the last meeting there was a snowstorm. The meeting you can't control it. the meeting before it was so late in the evening that I want to be able to be here. I want to be able to give my comments. I am very concerned about this property and I know that's not what we're talking about, but at some point you need to let the neighbors come in and say we're squishing something.

Well, hang on. Comments will come later at a different hearing. But how will I know? I well it sounds like there was a clerical error in the in posting the agenda but the agendas are typically posted with you know the the applicants that will be heard sometimes changes do happen last minute whether it's weather sometimes the applicant cancels and I know it's frustrating from the public side and and it you know it's it's also frustrating this is designed by committee I mean it's you're going full force ahead designing this property and changing it according to and yet You still have not had the chance for the public to comment on the overall use.

Correct. Well, this we're [applause] you're you're right, but we we have to follow the municipal land use law and that's what dictates how we go about this. So, it's not that I want to be a pain up here and say I I need your questions. I need your questions. Yes. That's what the law requires us to do to maintain this quasi judicial um setting that I mentioned in my opening remarks. Yes. So, as much as it would be, you have a very hard job.

I Yes. And and you know, it's equally frustrating for us when there's changes last minute as well because we spend, you know, time over the weekends and nights and early mornings studying and preparing questions. And so, we also get frustrated when the meeting changes, but I I think we've probably learn to live with it a little bit. I look forward to having the opportunity and hopefully next time we'll just it'll be a lot more clear. That's that's our goal. And just to reiterate, we will give the date at the end of the meeting tonight to which it's this public hearing will be continued. So there's no surprise as to when this will be on the next agenda. Thank you.

Mr. Sure.

Two quick follow-ups. Um, I understand you're increasing the impervious coverage from what you originally submitted to 7 97%. Is there a configuration for this lot where you could have basically the same lot, the same parking, equal or better traffic drop off and loading capabilities? Is there would there be a configuration that would deliver that besides the configuration that we're looking at today? I don't believe that there is uh well you you started by talking about the impervious if you meant is there is there

is there a way to increase I'm sorry let me rephrase or make clear is there a way to increase the impervious coverage you know to reduce the impervious by taking the empty lot and reconfiguring the needs that you've outlined in your plan as far as parking drive capacity sidewalks In other words, if you could move it some move the building around somewhere on the lot, would you get improvement in impervious?

I'm going to let the the civil engineer talk more about the impervious, but a major component of the impervious is that the right ofway is included in our calculation and the right of way is 100% impervious because it includes the sidewalk and part of Valley Road. So, uh, you know, I'm sorry, I missed that one. We're The property line goes into the of course there is the property line is the center of that line of Valley Brook. Yes. So, we're counting. So, there's like 30 something square feet that is 100% impervious that I have no control over.

So, the increase is due to including the center line. Again, I'm gonna let I'm gonna let our civil engineer introduce the the way that the site flows and give the basis for the impervious coverage. Okay. But there is a large portion of the site that is impervious by Okay. by right of way to the township.

Thank you. And then the second question is you're asking for a parking variance and you're asking for an impervious variance. Is there another variance that you could ask for such as setback or front yard guard parking where you can improve on the call outs? Are the concerns you heard tonight asked of you in the form of questions? Uh the building could physically be set back on the site triggering what would be a front a front car parking. Front yard parking barriage parking in the front yard is something that the site could physically accommodate. Um I don't know that it necessarily resolves some of the issues with the fire department who were clear about where they wanted the building on the site. But I do agree uh I do uh the answer is yes. the building could be placed uh differently on the site but it would trigger other vari.

Okay. So the fire department needs are a factor in the approval of this application. They were a factor in our design intent and how we designed the building. Okay. Thank you very much.

Hi. Um my name is Warren Ross. I own the building in upper Montlair Plaza. Uh there's six tenants that are there. Uh I'm a little confused about the parking survey that you said will be coming next meeting. Will that parking survey include analysis of what is now the parking situation in Upper Monontlair Plaza? it it will as well as uh other surface lots that are in the neighborhood that serve to uh fulfill the parking needs of the various upper Monlair businesses.

And are we uh as tenants and owners of the buildings around there, are we permitted to uh h get our own survey and and present it to the community? I mean, we're in a chaotic situation in upper Mont Plaza. I mean, there's car accidents almost every day. Can we without getting too far into without getting too far into comments? Yes, you are. You can, you know, present your own survey. Do they need to be represented by council in order to do that? No. Just as long as whoever Just make sure make sure microphone's on, please.

Whoever conducts the survey is a professional and can be uh questioned as a professional. You don't need an attorney, okay, to do that. Okay. So, you could bring in your own parking professional to do that study and they would be cross-examined just like uh all of their witnesses. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you.

Any other questions from the public for this witness? You love me. I know that. Um, my name is Arlene. I own New Val and One Savvy Design. Can I have your name again? Arlene Karini. Can you spell your last name?

You know who I am. I'm on all the emails. C A R R I N I. I own Newell and One Savvy Design at 629B Valley Road. So, I'm their least favorite person because I speak for a group, not the entire group, but for a group of people that are not happy about the swim school. But this is about questions. Yes, I'm getting to my questions. So, I just want to ask, can I ask Mr. Turbulac a question? You could try and we'll see if he can answer. Mr. Turbulac, were you the town attorney who helped draft the ordinances with Janice Tally? I think uh I drafted ordinances while drafting

Mr. Nice draft amendments to zoning ordinances from time to time certainly did not um um have any substantial involvement in drafting. No, but you know what the ordinances are in town? I know what the ordinances are that I need to know. Right. In town. Okay. So, can you explain how asking for a variance for an ordinance that you created is not I I I didn't create contradictional. I didn't create the parking ordinance. You didn't? Okay. Parking ordinance has been in place

for about to my knowledge, you know, at least 30 years and has not been updated, okay, and revised in any significant way in the past three decades. I appreciate you explain. Okay, good. So, that's good to know. But my question is, isn't the zoning board supposed to approve the parking variances? No. To my understanding, it's out of the planning board's jurisdiction to approve. That's not correct. The planning board has grants parking variances all the time. It's they have the right to do that in connection with a site plan application such as this or a subdivision application. But this application never went to the zoning board,

right? it because it's the jurisdiction for this application. But why didn't it go to the zoning board? Because it was determined that the use that's proposed is permitted by one person. Okay, I'm done answering questions. The only person that matters made that decision. Oh, so only one person versus a whole board. Okay, so there's I just want to understand because there is a whole entire board, right? There's a whole board here, but one person, Janice Tally, made a decision, administrative decisionally. Well, that's what's been told to all of us. Information out there, correct? That's not what was testified to and discussed at the last hearing that you were at.

Okay. Moreover, your questions should be limited to his testimony. Okay. So, okay, David, does it sound excessive that the previous building that's there on Valley Road, it was 1,600 square ft and you want to replace it with a 7,700 ft building asking for multiple variances because the impervious coverage is at 95% 95.5% of the property. I I don't think so. No. Okay. Because that's what's on public. You asked if I thought it was excessive. Oh, you don't think it's excessive? Okay. Um, okay. So, let me ask you another question. Where is the dumpster going to go on the lot?

There's very little trash generated by this operation. Okay. Um, so it will go in the trash room and be taken out for for pickup. There's no dumpster dumpster proposed. Will there be a handicap spot on premises? There is a handicap spot on premises. Okay. Well, that's good. Um, is there a variance for the easement of the 15% grade into the parking lot that is more than 10% that the town allows? Uh, our civil engineers going to testify to the site work, but I don't believe that that site uh is 15% gradient. Okay. Um, are the pillars in the front of the building loadbearing for a second floor? No.

Okay. You said in your testimony previously that parents are to help man the areas, but you also said in the previous meeting that you were hoping that parents would patronize the [clears throat] local businesses. So, how are they supposed to man your business and come visit me at my store?

I I didn't say they would man it. I said they would act as a deterrent. They're likely to be in the space some amount of parents and I believe that will act as a natural deterrent. And if We we've had this you and I have had this conversation about patronizing other businesses. I don't limit the ability for parents to patronize that business in my calculation as to the 30 minutes that they're in there with their kids. I believe some amount of them will leave for older kids and go and patronize the upper Monontlair businesses. I believe some amount of them will do that before or after their class. I did state earlier that I'm an uncle while I'm not a parent and that I have a very hard time leaving my 10 and 12 year old without buying something and that has been the case since they were learning how to swim and as so that that is my only experience with you know taking care of children or my niece and my nephew. Uh but as a result of that, I buy a lot of ice cream cones. I go get a lot of haircuts. We've done that. Um and I believe that this will work. And by the logic that they're going to watch the the the the kids swim and not patronize the businesses, that's like saying that during a movie at the Belleview, we expect parents to get we expect people to get up and go buy a coffee when we know that they're watching the movie. They're going to do that before and they're going to do that afterwards. Anchor tenants behave that way often.

Okay. Did you know that I went to the Milbourne location and sat there for two hours and watched parents not come in and out? I didn't know that. No. Yeah. So, I sat there and another member, another person who's not here today. Is this is this going to be a question? Oh, it's a question. So, did you know that parents do not come out because the swim school urges parents to stay there and watch their children?

Again, I think it's part of an ecosystem. I don't think it's necessarily that every parent will drop their kid off and immediately go and leave the premises. I think some will, especially for older kids, and I believe that before and after this, it's a reason that they're going to choose this swim school. I believe that. I can't tell you exactly what's going to happen when this is approved. I can't predict other people's behavior, but I do firmly believe that the reason this will be successful is because people will be excited by your business, other people's businesses in this room and the various other uses that are around there. And it will make people say, I would love to sign my kid up for a swim school in upper Montlair because I get to the experience of going to Jackie's Glette and one savvy design and and Java. And I do think that will happen. Yes.

Okay. So, your entrance is all in the back. No, we have an entrance on the front. No, no, no, but we talked about like how you have your whole basically check-in system is in the back. Is there a reason? There's there's an entrance on the front and but nobody's checking in, right? No, you can you just walk to the reception.

No, my qu So, let me get to what I'm trying to ask you. Why not just move the reception area to the front, your little storefront to the front, move everything back? So, it alleviates all the issues that are going on about peeping toms and people watching kids and so forth. And it alleviates people that back door could be like emergency exit for people to exit if they want to exit because they're parked back there, but they come in through the front entrance because the fire department asked us not to. But a lot of people have asked you to not do things and you still do them. The fire department asked. So in this case, it works in your favor.

In this not in my favor, it's designed to their requirements. They asked me specific. They have one thing in their memo, which is drive people to the rear. We've tried to accomplish a compromise. And I'm saying that specifically because I believe it to be a compromise where now you can come in on both. But driving the entire activity to the front conflicts with what the fire department's memo was and I'm not prepared to do that. So let can I just show it to you on your is this your rendering? This is the the first floor. This is the front right road. So what if people come into here into the front of your building park go and drop off their kids. Wait, where are they parking? I guess wherever your spots are. They're here. They're here. This is the back of the building facing the

This is where the parking spots are. Okay. So what if for example you told your kids made your I think can you hold the um we can't hear you. You have to hold the um I'm sorry. So my So it's just because there's a lot of people who have concerns about the way the the front is and the retail space of it and all. And I think that that is a really good solution is to bring everything forward and maybe push the pool back so that this way you don't have the pool is pushed back. The we the pool was on Valley Road. We pushed it back and we put all of the public facing activities to be accessible from Valley Road as a reaction to to comments from the public and to the planning board. Okay.

So, that was that was the intent of what we did. What we didn't do is move the reception desk from the rear or change the parking layout, which is why I'm calling what I think this revision is a compromise because it drives vehicular traffic to the rear to prevent from queuing on the front, yet allows for pedestrian traffic to enter either on valley or in the rear where they park. Okay. Um that is that was the intent of this revised. I was just trying to figure out how you can make it safe for them not to come in through the front door. [clears throat] So if they had a front entrance it does

No, I know. But people have to walk through all the way through and just anybody random person can walk in without being checked in. But that would happen in the rear if you move to the reception desk to the front. Like it it it I can't man every corner. But you're dealing with children. I I think appropriately. Right now, there's a full sight line from the reception desk to any place that anybody can get into this building. And that took a a a tremendous amount of brain power to try to redesign this in a way that could accomplish it. And we were able to accomplish that. I'm proud that we were able to accomplish that because I believe it's a good compromise. Okay. And you're entitled to your opinion, of course.

As are you. Okay. So, I have a lot of questions, but they're not obviously for here today. Um, so I can't ask all those questions, but if they're for me, this is probably the last time I'm testifying. So, if you have questions for me, I would encourage you to ask them. Does that mean the architect will come back the next time when you revise the plans? if we revise the plans other than the sign. I mean, I I don't know that we've I don't know that I've heard anything that that makes me think we should revise the plans other than the sign location. I still think in my opinion, is this the question?

This is the question is David, would you consider I know you've probably done a thousand revisions on this. Would you do a thousand1 and possibly consider having your check-in point in the front and not in the back of the building? I I'm not prepared to do that. No. Okay. Okay. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Janova, I have one question. Yes. Just to clarify, the area in the front of the building where you have the dry bar and the waiting area, the seating that is below grade, isn't it? From the street. It is slightly below grade. Yes. How many how many just to help um us visualize? Five steps.

Five steps. So it's probably four feet below grade. I think it's like I I don't I don't know the actual. All right. So if you have the dry bar, it's people are sitting there. They're not going to be at the street level. They'll be below that. I'm trying to get help help visualize submerged, but they are they are lower than they're not sitting at street level. Correct. Okay. Thank you. Yes.

My name is Suzanne Nekerman. I own get dressed Montlair 601 Valley Road. I have a general question when to ask a question. Um, your whole plan says that you want to use over 90% of the whole space and that's a lot more than is usually zoned. And I don't even know when to ask. Is this the time to ask or is there a different time or I'm I'm not sure I I'm not sure I understand the question to give you guidance. The building will occupy almost 90% of the entire lot. Is is that so in a question form is that correct?

The building wall the site itself is over 90% impervious. The building does not occupy 90% of the site. But our civil engineer is going to come to testify about the need for the impervious coverage variance and he's here now. So he'll do that after me. Uh and you can ask him any questions you'd like. So later today. Later tonight. Thank you. Welcome.

Yes. It has to be on the record. Again, I I keep reiterating, you know, this is it's quasi judicial. We have to follow the municipal and use law and that requires everything to be on record. Anmarie Nardone. Thank you. Um you said the question is that the fire department asked you not to. Do they make that rule? Like is that their part of the job? It's my question to you or them. If you're asking me how I came to that conclusion, that's a little bit different than do they make the rule, right? In terms of like did they just ask you or is it a

Yeah, let him let him respond. I testified to this at at the [clears throat] last meeting and I'm happy to reiterate points of it. Um, when we got under contract for this site, I recognize I grew up in Monontlair. I've lived in Monontlair my whole life. I know this fire station. I know the level of activity that comes out of this fire station. So, when we got under contract for this building, uh, the first stakeholder that I I interacted with was uh, the deputy chief of the Montlair Fire Department. Okay. And I asked him specifically uh how I could develop this site in a way that was economically viable and that made sense in this district while accommodating whatever needs the fire department has and has become accustomed to. Understanding that the fire department has no easement rights over our site. They don't have legal rights to use our site to cross our site or to to to do anything. and that the code allows for buildings to be built right up to the lot right in the upper Montlair zone. There's no sideyard setbacks. So, I could have if I hadn't asked him or if I didn't know that that this was a challenge built this building another call it 25 ft closer to the fire department. And what he responded to me with were that he had really two issues. One was he wanted to try to uh he wanted me to design something that didn't allow or didn't encourage queuing in front of the building. So I I think he brought up like you know restaurants Door Dash and he brought up Starbucks and what's going on at the Starbucks site.

Uh so that informed what kind of use I felt like was appropriate on the site. And the second thing he said and he did not demand this. He didn't say you have no choice and again they don't have an easement.

But the second thing he said was our back parking lot where personal vehicles of the fire department are stored is somewhat landlocked. There's only one way in and there's not a way out. So that in shift changes if this building were to be built up to the fire department line. It would create a situation where he would likely like have to close part of Valley Road in a shift change to get all the cars out and all the cars in. So because of those and those were their two comments. So because of those two comments which are reflected in an email that was sent to the planning department and is available online if you want to read it. It's not the email is not the conversation I had. It was after the fact they sent an email to the planning department. Because of that the building sits where it sits and the use and the kind of the way that the the the vehicular circulation flows encourages traffic to the rear of the site.

Okay. So, so that was the question, but it wasn't mandatory. It was just a kindness that you were correct giving them. Okay. Courtesy to the fire. Right. Right. If you Okay. So, if so many people another a question are against this and neighborhood people and people in the community, do you feel that's going to affect people signing up to the swim school? The many people have kids. We have a tremendous amount of interest in this site since we announced it. Okay. And you mentioned that you can see from the front to the back, but it's a 7,000 square foot building. You can really see from the front to the back. Like people are saying the check-in part. It's about 100 ft from the front to the rear. Okay.

Uh again, I don't know the dimensionality of this room, but it's not significantly deeper than that. So, yes, I do think you can see from the reception desk to the front door.

Does it have to be 7,000 square feet? We we've packed the building with what I think are the requirements for this type of use. There are a certain number of changing rooms. There are certain number of restrooms that are required by code and practicality. There are areas of this space that are important to the operator. Um I don't believe that this particular space could shrink and accomplish the same goals. Is there a certain amount of square footage that Swim Quest requires for you to open one?

They have more than one size in there. So, their existing locations developed somewhat organically. The first one was an adaptive reuse of an 8,000 foot or just under 8,000 foot synagogue in Milbour. So, there was a a previous use in the building. They bought the building, they adapted the building. That kind of was their their first foray into into swim schools. Since then, they've been in other locations that behave similarly and differently to what this one does in the way Milbour does. So, they do have a larger prototype. Okay. Um but this is this represents uh you know one of them one of the prototypes that they have. They don't have a smaller one.

Okay. Do they necessarily do necessarily have to have a dry bar and a koi pond and a coffee bar? Yeah. Yes. I mean that that is that's part of the part of the the brand of the school. Okay. My other other question kind of might be for you and and and you um I know that the back of the Talbitz building does experience a lot of flooding because I did know a friend of mine who owned a business there and left because this does this area have that same problem?

Th this entire and again I'm our civil engineer is going to talk about storm water specifically but right now there is no storm water management on this site at all. So if rain hits the pavement, it goes to the lowest place next to the pavement. It's not treated. It's not absorbed and it's not contained in any way. The rear parking lot, upper Montlair Plaza parking lot has some grates in places, some inlets in places. Those are also not they don't exit anywhere. They're not tied into a complicated storefront system.

So um the short answer to your question is yes. businesses in this area uh are are impacted by that. Our plan greatly improves the storm water that's there. And candidly, any plan that were to go on this site would would would improve it by definition because we have a storm water ordinance that talks about how much storm water can can flow and where it flows and how much you have to detain on site. But ours does a particularly good job at that. It's not only going to help what's going on on our site, it should ancillary help what's going on in adjacent sites because we are this site is contributing to that problem currently and it will stop contributing to that problem with this site plan.

Okay. So, last question. I'm getting the hang hang of this though, right? With the questions. Yes. Um, [laughter] do you feel that at these meetings, these last meetings that we're putting the cart before the horse because we're not really listening to what the public has to say? We're listening to more about the planning of it. I I don't understand the question. You're talking all about the plan and it has [clears throat] to be fixed numerous times. You're probably going to have to fix it again, but nobody's actually heard from the community and how they feel about it. I I've been in front of this board a number of times. This and I get frustrated by this process.

Some members of the board do, but that is the process. The process is that witnesses come up, they testify. I've never had a plan that didn't have some amount of revisions between board meetings and I believe that those revisions make for a better plan. They make for a better application. Um there have been times in my career where I've said I don't think we can revise that. You know, and in this particular case from what we heard in the first meeting, we were able to make what I think are some significant revisions that accomplished at least some of the comments I heard both from the community and the public and the and the board. But it is standard for the public to speak after the the case is heard. My question is that we will be able to talk maybe the next time.

Hopefully the next time. [laughter] I mean, given that we've gotten through one witness tonight and it's almost two hours in. Okay. Uh there's a good chance this will go beyond three hearings and into four hearings. I mean, we'll we'll see how it goes. It all depends on, you know, how they put on their their case here. But that would just be my general sense right now. Okay. But don't take that as absolute, please. Thank you. Carol Ferris, Princeton Place. Uh, Mr. Gova, you testified at Miss Ferris, can we get you just a little closer to the microphone just so we get never had a problem being heard.

Well, I can hear you well. I just want to make sure the microphone does. You have testified at length as to what the deputy chief fire department of the fire department has told you. Correct. I don't know if I've testified at length, but I've testified about that conversation. Yes. And since we haven't heard this from his lips, you're asking us to assume that everything that you attribute to him is truthful. The email from the fire department to the planning board reflects the conversation that I had with the deputy chief. You've also made a distinction. The simple part is you are asking this panel and this community to accept what you say as being exactly what his intention was. Yes or no?

I don't think I'm doing that. Well, let everybody else think about it.

Uh Jane Hansen again. Uh, a quick question about that conversation with the uh the fire chief or the deputy fire chief. Um, did I understand you correctly to say that he didn't want any queuing in front of his driveway in front of the the fire department? Is that what this was? Did I get that right? This conversation started um early in the process. It was before we had this plan developed

and I said we bought the, you know, we're under contract. I don't think we had closed yet. We're under contract to buy the bank. And I said, you know, we're going to be building something next door. How can we work together and and what what needs does the fire department have so that I can think about those needs when I'm planning our design? And he said he brought up Starbucks. I don't remember whether or not he brought that up and said, don't put a Starbucks there, but he said, you know, we have a queuing problem where sometimes people queue in people park in places they're not allowed to park and throw on their hazards. try not to give me a use that encourages that or or enhances that problem. Um, but that was the conversation around queuing. Uh, specifically, he brought up, you know, Door Dash and Uber Eats drivers and how he believed them to be careless.

So, did did you think he was saying he just didn't want people parking in front of the fire department? I took I took it to

Mr. Tremulac mentioned or answered a question previously about how long these parking standards have been in place. It's a similar length of time that our most of our planning standards have been in place. They've been updated carefully and thoughtfully from Miss Tally and her team. But I don't think meaningful changes have happened to the planning process since the advent of Uber Eats, Door Dash, Amazon, and the dayto-day delivery quantity, day-to-day pickup quantity that we have. Whereas some of the retail uses that are approved by right in various zones now have an impact to their community that they didn't have when they were approved. And we haven't changed that in terms of how we approach retail planning in in any of our business districts. And I think we would all agree I I would I believe and I see that impact playing out mostly in Bloomfield Avenue, in some cases in Wong Plaza, in some cases in Upper Monontlair. And I think what what deputy I think what deputy chief lizard was trying to uh enumerate was I there's no laws preventing you from doing this, but you'd be doing us a disservice if you if you designed for a business that had those ancillary problems and had those challenges uh from them both in terms of delivery pickup and in terms of the ability for customers to just jump out, leave their car somewhere, have no risk of getting a ticket because they're going to be fat. past and create a queueing problem in front of the building.

Um, I'm not sure that I read the uh uh traffic pattern correctly in one of in your in your application, but it seems as if the drive the egress into your site um overlaps with the lined the the the line the the grids that are laid out for the uh fire trucks so that when they come in and out of the the um the firehouse. the No, they can in the the ingress. Yeah, I think it I think it overlaps it. Um, it's an existing driveway, though. So, so we're not we're not changing the location of the northernmost driveway.

That driveway exists and has existed since the bank was built. That will remain the way into the site, but the way out of the site instead of being on the other side will be out there. Okay. Thank you. Other questions from the public for this witness? I see none. Let's let's take a 10-minute break.

It's inde So I think we have Thank you. So the zoning board hears it on Juneus. No, there's only board's going to hear it.

So, just to be clear, Miss Tally, we back on. Okay, good. So, we're back on. I see the applicants getting ready. That's a separate but it will be heard this month before the Yeah, it's on. Yeah. Yeah. I'll find out. Yeah, it's the 20th. Okay.

[clears throat]

All right, Mr. Tumbulac, are you ready? Do you need another minute or two or No, we're good to go. Mr. Chairman, uh my next witness is Jerry Jacario. I'm ready to be sworn. Sir, do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Would you please state your full name and business affiliation for the record? And by the way, if you can move the microphone a little bit closer to you just to make sure that we get you.

Sure. [clears throat] Full name is Gerard Jacario. That's g a r i o. I'm a director of engineering for JRal Kaisel Architects and Engineers, business address 42 OER Parkway in Livingston, New Jersey. Okay. Would you provide the board with your educational background and your professional qualifications in addition to what you just stated?

Sure. Uh I graduated in 1988 from the New Jersey Institute of Technology with a Bachelor of Science and Civil Engineering. I became licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey in 1994. Um, in my 12 years with JRal Kaiselle as director, I've testified for over 60 boards throughout the state. I've have been before this board, although it's about at least seven, eight years ago. Um, my license is in good standing. Has always been in good standing. [snorts] Okay. Mr. Chair, we accept his qualifications as a professional engineer. Thank you. Yeah. He's testifying as a civil engineer, right? Yes.

Y and [clears throat] your you your office under your supervision prepared the site plan for this application? Yes. Okay. And you're prepared to review that tonight with the board? Yes. Okay. All right. So, why don't you begin? I guess I think everyone knows the the site we're talking about, but to the extent you feel it's necessary, you can describe the the property and surrounding area and then proceed with your Sure. discussion of your plans. So, I'm gonna have three exhibits this evening. So, I think we left off at 20. So, these are exhibits new. No, digitally. Okay. Yeah, just digitally. Yeah.

All right. So, 21 would be an

821. A21 will be a aerial exhibit drawing EX-100. Don't go away again. Drawing number EX-100 and it's dated uh March 18th, 2026. I can I don't have one here. I can Yeah. So I have it in the file. That's it's okay. In addition to I can have it brought to the next meeting. Thank you. Okay. And what's your what's your second exhibit?

Second exhibit is drawing EX-200. It's just simply called the site exhibit which I'll describe when I get to it. And that's also March 18, 2026. All right. That would be 822. Yeah. And the third one is a EX-300. It's called the street parking exhibit. Also dated March 18th, 2026. Were these were emailed to the planning department? They were emailed to me today.

Today. Okay. Yeah. It's you kind of have to either email them earlier or bring hard copies so we can so the board can see what your exhibits are. It's, you know, as you can probably tell, it's very hard for us to study it on the screen. Oh, okay. I I didn't know we did both. I had I had hard copies at the last hearing. Really for the audience and watching on television. You want paper,

right? I mean, if you you can, you know, bring it to 10 days ahead of time and then we have hard copies and the electronic like that would be the best case scenario. But we understand, you know, sometimes timing doesn't allow that. So, you bring exhibits here, but you the board needs to be able to see these things. Okay.

Good. Yeah. Okay. Uh, I know we spent a lot of time talking about the building. I'm just going to go back for the record to describe where this site is and um what's around it. So, for the record, it is lot 30, block 1711 on the uh tax maps and the address is 580 Valley Road. Uh Valley Road is also known as Essis County Route 621. And you can see it runs in a north south direction. Uh it has one lane of travel in each direction and parking is permitted on both sides of the road. Uh the nearest posted speed limit I saw out there was a 20 mph speed limit. As you can see, our lot is highlighted or outlined in yellow on the area.

Excuse me, chair. Can Can at least the drawing be the Can you maximize it on the screen? If he can, or you're welcome to. I know. I just meant for everyone. It's It's both a small drawing and not maximized on the screen. Yeah. If if he's able to Can you maximize it on the screen, please? So, it takes up the whole screen. Yeah.

Can you get rid of the side panel? Okay. [clears throat] So, as it the our lot is highlighted in yellow. Can I have a question on that? Just sorry about real fast because the Mr. Denova said that the property line goes to the center of Valley Road. The survey shows that too. This doesn't. So, I'd like some clarity. Um, what are you measuring? You measuring It's part of my testimony. Sorry. Okay. Yeah. So, I do have that. Okay. Sorry about that. I just thought we got got it.

It's coming. [laughter]

So, our lot is highlighted in yellow on the sheet. It's on the west side of Valley Road. So, yes, the um I'm going to skip right to that part. Then the lot area per the survey, per the deed, I will say, goes out to the center line of of Valley Road. that has an area of 18,690 square feet. The lot area, what I call the effective lot area, goes to the westerly rightaway line of Valley Road. That area is 15,840 square ft. That's the area we used on the resubmitted plans for our calculations. Um, so that that's why that it's an old D and that shows the property going to the center. But if you look at the survey, you'll see in the notes, it shows two areas, one to the center and one to the westerly rightway line.

Thank you. I just want So any of your area calculations are based on the denominator is going to be 15,840 then. That's correct. Currently, that's correct. Yes, not the lot area or the Okay. Not to the center line. Got it. Okay. Yeah.

Okay. Um, as we know, this lot is occupied by an old bank building with the drive-thru. Uh it's been vacant from my understanding for about 7 years. Uh we have the firehouse to our north. Uh we have the saint is it firehouse to the north. We have the church and the school directly across the street. Then there's other commercial establishments to the to the south and to the west where the uh public parking lot is. property [snorts] is in the NC zone, neighborhood commercial. As we stated, uh the zoning officer determined this isn't an allowable use within our zone. Uh we know about what the applicant's proposal we heard about, you know, it's a swim school 7,740 square ft. I'm going to switch to exhibit A2, which is our site exhibit. Uh this is basically our site plan with

again. Can you get rid of the side panel so the image is bigger? Where was that? I think it's the hamburger at the top. Top three lines top left. Yeah, there you go. Yep. There we go. All right. So, this is our site plan. Thanks, Rick. [snorts]

This is our site plan with some with the landscape and some color added for for clarity. Um you can see our building is positioned on the the rightaway line to Valley Road and the southern property line. Uh the driveway is to the north. It does get relocated slightly just uh to correct on that. the existing driveway, the firehouse driveway and the current driveway separated by a sidewalk that leads to the the public stairs at the west northwest corner of our site. Uh per the initial review letters, it was asked of us to move the sidewalk to the building side and slide the driveway over a few feet so it ab butts directly with the firehouse driveway. So there is a slight shift in the driveway when you compare it to the existing conditions. So we can accommodate the sidewalk being on the the building side. So that driveway is uh 14 ft wide and as you come in it enters into an 18 foot wide drive aisle and our exit is proposed at the rear where there currently is an exit but it's uh blocked off by Ballards. So that'll be improved. that's going to be 12 ft wide to meet code and that'll serve as our egress from the site. The current southbound egress driveway gets eliminated and that's where we can pick up some uh parking which I'll show on the next picture. [snorts] Let's see. As was stated uh in the rear of the site, we're providing parking for 11 vehicles. One of which is an ADA vehicle. One will provide uh an EV charging station and one station is a uh going to be signed

for compact spaces. That's the northeastern space that's going to be signed for compact spaces. [snorts] Uh the spaces are 9 by8. Drive aisle is 18 ft wide. The exit drive is as I mentioned 12 feet wide. These are all well there's a waiver for the parking stall size. Uh 9 by19 is required. We're doing 9 by8 and our opinion was the we could meet 9 by19 but the drive aisle would go to 16 ft wide which does still comply but we felt an 18 foot wide drive aisle was uh safer and gives more comfort to the driver having a wider aisle. So, that is one of the waiverss we're asking for uh for the park install sizes. Uh trash was brought up. I'll just reiterate for the record. Uh the trash is going to be inside the building as very little trash is generated by this use. So, uh private company will uh gather the trash and take it off site. Uh this site will also propose all new curve and sidewalk along the frontage uh to improve uh the appearance on the front. [snorts] [clears throat] This is for landscaping. Uh there's not a lot of landscaping. We did what we could do with the space we have. There's four islands in the five areas in the rear that get landscaped. Two shade trees. And we're also adding two new shade trees along Valley Road. Uh lighting was talked about. Uh there's three polemounted fixtures and and three wall-mounted fixtures that were modeled. Uh there was discussion about the sconces in the front. Those were not modeled. Typically those are more architectural and don't provide that much light. We we can certainly add them

in any future submission just to see what uh effect they have on the walkway at Valley Road. Uh next item is to talk about the storm water. Before you do that, Jerry, just since you've got the parking plan shown on there, can you indicate which space is the compact? Yes. It's it's this one, the northeastern one. Okay. And I I think the engineer had a concern about the dimensions of that space. Can you address that? Yeah, the the comment in the review letter, it noted it showed that the vehicle was sticking out

in uh about a foot and when I looked into it further, that was because the car that was placed in that spot as an example was not a compact car. It was a full 19 foot long car. Uh compact cars are typically 15 16 feet. So it it actually does fit in that spot and will not encroach into the 18t aisle and we'll future submissions will correct the the car that we used in our our model for that spot. So the aisle width remains conforming at 18 ft. Correct. Yeah. The aisle width can stay at 18 feet and there will be no encroachment of the compact vehicle into that.

Okay. And the dimensions of the compact parking space were 8 by7. That's correct. Which is consistent with what the town permits for compact spaces? That is correct. Yes. Okay. Mr. Chair, Mr. Hernandez, will that space be signed? Yes. For compact, I guess in a in the future submission, if you could indicate the location of that sign. Yes. Helpful as well. We'll put detail in the location. It'll say compact cars only. And I believe Mr. Hernandez report also highlighted a potential issue with encroachment on the sidewalk from that compact car.

Uh if if the car pulled straight up and touched the ballard, there'd be a 3-in encroachment into the sidewalk, but we still get uh 3'9 in of clearance. That's if the car touched the ballard that we're putting there. So that would and otherwise it's 4 and 1/2 ft. So 4' 6 in. Uh let me just Is that what I read on the plan? Let me go back to that. I think it's 4 feet there, but let me check. Let me just check that.

I'm going by the snip that's in Mr. Hernandez's report. I just want to go to my make sure I have the right number because it bear with me. Not used to this computer. All right. Zoom in. Yeah, it's four four and a half feet. So, I think I think the encroachment I thought the croch was three inches, but

either way, we'd have four feet remaining. more than at least four feet remaining if the that left I'll call it the left front end of the car came over the curb. But I but I thought you indicated that the the template used for the vehicle was not the was not the correct size. So the length is not the correct size. So this overhang will go away. This would happen with with any car. Okay. If they were to touch the ballard there, it would extend over the curb. We could move the ballard and reduce.

No, I mean the thinking is the thinking was that people don't pull their car up to touch the ballard. So now if I move the ballard back, then people are not going to want to touch touch the Ballard again and then there's a chance they're sneaking out into the island. So, would it be better to um show it on the plans with somebody not touching the ballard? Right. Because that's how you're that's how you're presenting it to us. I'm showing a worst case. Mhm. But in reality, in one way. Yeah. In reality, no one's going to hit the Well, they might hit the bottom. So, then are they going to be in the drive aisle if they don't? No, not with a 16T car. Even if they don't compact car, if they're 6 in from the baller, six inches off, we're still okay. Okay. Mr. Hernandez.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I was just going to mention um I think in previous iterations there was rows of um concrete wheel stops along those parking spaces. Maybe as you go look and tweak things maybe for that particular parking space you have a concrete wheel stop. So it doesn't allow cars to go all the way out. We were asked to remove the wheel stops but just for this space for this. Just for this space since it's a unique we generally don't do the wheel stops. Yeah, that's that's an option. Okay, that's fine. But yeah, that that's why we took the real stuffs out, but we can put [laughter] one back in for sure. They tend to collect litter.

Understood. All right. [snorts] Uh, so just for the parking, I'm just going to finish up the parking. This is the exhibit A23. Yeah, A23. That shows the in red along Valley Road. By getting rid of the existing egars driveway, we can pick up two uh street parking spaces over there. So, I just want to show that. [snorts] So, the last thing I want to talk about is storm water. There's been some discussion on that. So, this project is not a major development in terms of storm water as defined by the DP. So, we are only required to address the township's ordinance for uh for storm water.

Jerry, can I stop you there before you talk about the improvements for storm water drainage? Can you spend a few minutes talking about the existing drainage for this site and whether there are any existing storm water facilities currently on this property? Yeah, sure. I was going to get into that, but yeah, I'll um so just to touch on Montlair's requirement,

uh Montlair requires you retain and manage two gallons of storm water every square foot of added impervious coverage. Uh currently on this site, there is no storm water infrastructure. Uh everything drains from uh east to west or valley road to the back to that rear parking lot. Uh there is an existing structure right at the bottom of that egress driveway that collects all the runoff from there in the portion of the parking lot behind us. It is simply an infiltration or I'll call it a seepage structure. It's not tied to any other storm water. Uh there's another structure to the south in that parking lot similar. It's a a manhole frame, open frame. Water runs in and there's no connection point. Uh this cross-hatched area that we show here, this this site does list a flood zone on the property behind us. It's listed as flood zone A. Uh flood zone A is typically a flood zone. It's not associated with with the stream. There's no really elevation assigned to it. It's typically due to uh storm water backup either insufficient size or maintenance issues. Uh that's what's happening back here. Um, so this these limits that they show on FEMA are are guesstimates based based on historical data and flooding and it runs along this wall and it encroaches slightly into our driveway uh somewhere just past where the word stops are. Uh so that elevation that's plotted is elevation roughly 331. Uh there was a comment about uh the D and and the flood hazard if it affects

our site. Our parking lot up here is up at elevation 334. Our finished floor is elevation 335. So we're 4 feet above what the FEMA map shows. This flood area A to B. We're not changing the grade in this area. We're not filling it. So that we're not changing anything with regard to that that flood uh area that's delineated. [snorts]

So again there there is no drainage on our site. Uh but what we are proposing is a subsurface infiltration basin. Uh this dashed rectangle is the outline of 280 linear feet of 30 36 inch perforated pipe that's going to sit in a a a gravel bed. And we are currently collecting our proposal is to collect all the roof runoff and discharge it into this infiltration basin. Uh so this roof is just under 50% of our entire lot. And in terms of numbers to give you an idea, uh we're required to manage 5,58 gallons of storm water, which equates to 736 cubic feet. The system we're proposing will provide uh where is it 3,794 cubic feet of storage which is more than five times what we are required to permit per the or required to manage per the Montlair ordinance. Uh there there was a request in the review letter to also pick up the site runoff by putting a perforated pipe in this uh gravel area at the rear of these parking spaces. Uh we can do that. We certainly have the capacity to do it. Uh so that'll even that actually will pick up most of the driveway and uh almost probably 80% of the site where today 0% is being managed. So uh definitely an improvement to the drainage and what's occurring in the rear parking lot behind us.

That's it. waiverss. Uh they just relief I'll touch on. Our planner will obviously go into more detail. Uh impervious lot coverage. That's something I do want to clear up. There was talk about impervious coverage.

The ordinance doesn't uh have a max for imperous coverage. They do lot coverage. And the difference was and went over this early on uh with the professionals because I was trying to get under the 80% that's required and I asked about doing pavers or permeable pavement and the response was that changes imperous coverage but it's still lot coverage. So Montlair's ordinance is lot coverage, not impervious coverage. And we are proposing we're at using the rightway at the west side of Valley Road. We're at 97% lot coverage. Uh but we feel that's more than accounted for by the storm basin we're putting in. That's now going to collect probably 80 to 90% of the site. uh then manage that on site and infiltrate into ground. [snorts] The other uh waiver we're seeking is for lighting. Uh two foot candles is the max. We have an area by the ADA by the entry the rear entry in the ADA parking that exceeds two. Most are between two and 25. We have a couple over three. Um, so we're requesting a waiver. We feel uh having a little more light in this area by the ADA in the entrance is not going to be a a negative effect to our neighbors since our neighbors are a municipal parking lot and the firehouse to the right. And the third waiver we're requesting is a light pole which is on the west property line. Ordinance requests that you be 30 inches from a face of curb. Um we're proposing to have it one fixture directly behind

the edge of pavement. There is no curb in that location. I think didn't. And the other variance we talked about was was the parking where 39 spaces are required and 11 are provided on site. And that's all I have. Did you mention the waiverss for the parking space? I think you mentioned that earlier for the parking space dimensions and the Yes, the waiver for the parking space dimension, the maximum foot candles and lighting and the location of the light pole. Those are the three waivers I have. Okay.

Did you want to discuss the um reports from the board planner and the board engineer?

Sure. Um the last planning memo received was dated February 4th, 2026. I believe we've addressed the items in that letter with our April resubmission. Uh, a new memo wasn't issued for this meeting, but I believe we addressed all the items in the February 4th memo in advance of this meeting. Uh, we have a May 1, 20, 2026 engineering review from Neglia. Uh, we intend to comply with the remaining comments in that letter. Uh just there were I have three items I noted for discussion and I'll just list them by the comment number as they appear in the letter. Uh comment 47 talks about obtaining an access easement to utilize that rear driveway. Um it was our opinion that an easement is not required since that's a public rightway and we don't think an easement is is needed to exit our property into a public rightaway. uh to and

Mr. I think um it's a public property owned by the township. It's not a public right away. And I guess the concern is looking ahead if the town were to in the future sell this property and a future developer eliminate access on that side of the property, what recourse would you have?

Well, that you know that's an issue. Well, yeah. I guess the same question would be what recourse would any of the, you know, the adjoining property owners have, the Talbot's building, for example, and others. But that's an issue that I I think, you know, I need to spend a little bit more time researching, but I, you know, again, right now it's, you know, it's public property and there's an existing driveway that's that's been there and utilized and uh I I don't know that we um need any easements. my opinion we don't but I I I'll research that further and follow up on that issue.

Okay.

Okay. Uh in comment 63 talks about the same driveway exit and whether the space in front of that which is being used for parking is a permitted space. Um, I think the applicant is working on getting uh documentation for that to show that it's it's not one of their permanent parking spots even though it's used as one. So, [clears throat] that that documentation uh Mr. Goenova is working on obtaining with the parking authority. I think the other comments I touched on the flood hazard that we we believe we're in compliance since we're uh not doing any fill in that area and we're 4 feet above the elevation based on the FEMA map. But other than that, we we intend to comply with the comments that are within that uh May one letter.

Just on the on the on the issue with the flood hazard area, I mean, it's your opinion, there's no D permit required. We don't believe we need a D permit for this one. Okay. Was Was that tied to a specific uh paragraph number? The D what what you just testified to? Yes. I think it's 5.2 unless the numbers changed. Correct. 5.2. Comment 5.2.

Anything else, Jerry? I think you covered that.

That's it. All I have. Um I have a quick question on um All right, Mr. Treble, did you have more?

Uh I just remember one thing. Uh a minor point, but I know the board's always concerned about uh snow removal storage area. You add snow storage areas to the plans, I think. And if you could just identify where those are located. We have some areas where snow can be stored. They're they're mostly the the islands in the rear. Uh it's not a lot of area. Um but basically, they'd be using these four islands in in the rear. Uh worst case, they'd have to cart it off site. If it's like a a major snowstorm, you're getting a foot or more than a foot, they may not have enough room. They may have to cart some offsite. But these four islands would be the bulk of the snow storage area.

That's all I have. Mr. Ian Wallally, I just want to go over the um detention, right? You're just there's no there's no there's no sewer off. There's no no drainage off this. It stays the water stays on site and it's going to infiltrates the ground. Infiltrate into the ground. You said there's 5,000 cubic feet that you're putting in. Is that I'm just trying to get the the capacity of what the pipe that you're putting in. You said something. I was getting the gallons and the cubic feet confused. I have the gallons, too, if you want it. Um, what we're putting in provides uh 3,794 cubic feet of storage, which is Oh, 3,000. Okay. Yeah. Which is equivalent to 27,885 gallons.

Okay. Could you just put that in terms of like That sounds like a lot of cubic feet. How much how much does that mitigate with the storms that we have? So, let's say if the typical rainfall like would it absorb most of the water coming off for uh a particular storm or to to help put in perspective what what we sized it for was taking all the roof drain which is 7,740 square ft and using a 100redyear storm event which is about 12 inches of rain under current numbers. So yes, for a typical one, two years, even five year storm event.

Okay. So would you say that you're doubling the you're you're cutting in half the runoff? I mean, it's even going to be more because uh in the review letter, one of the requests was to add a perforated pipe in this this stone uh trench we have between the parking and that retaining wall. And that's going to pick up a good portion of this parking lot and our entry drive. So with the final plans, even more than just the roof is going to go into that. So whatever's going on in that little sewer there, that doesn't work too well. You're cutting it by 60%. Is that kind of probably more at the end of the day? Yeah. Um yeah, I have a question.

Sure. Porch. Can uh just for clarity um you had mentioned uh that the building is 4 foot grade above um where the FEMA map requires for the flood map for FEMA right so the building itself that's the outside of the building the finished floor the finished floor finished floor inside inside okay thank you so even though it's a 4ft drop it's still technically four foot drop occurs from the valley roadside there there's about a 10-ft rate trade rate change in this site from valley to bottom of that exit driveway. Got it. So from valley we start sloping back. So the 4 foot drop in the floor is only from the valley roadside. Okay. In the back we're at grade basically when you enter that door.

Okay. And that floor is elevation 335 where the FEMA map the approximate elevation they're showing is 331. Okay. So yeah 4T. Thank you. Yes. I had a few uh questions. um landscaping. Um you're re putting in a cherry laurel, non-native and toxic. Would you reconsider that one? I thought we did change that, but I just uh the berries are poisonous. Yeah. I mean, if that's what we

uh a mountain laurel or something a native floral, would you consider that? Yes, if that's what we I just want to see. I thought we did change to all native. I can't read that. Uh it's the pruness trees we proposed are American horn beams. It's the evergreen shrub. The first one. Oh, the evergreen shrub, not the tree. Okay. Yep. The Oh, the autoan. Yep. Yeah, we can change that.

Thank you. Uh, you put the horn beam I noticed, right in front of the front door on Valley, which what was the thought in that? Ah, honestly, there wasn't a front door on Valley when we put the tree. Okay. So, will you reconsider that? We can slide it. We do have some utility issues there, but we we can try to move that away. All right. Because I think a concern was the whole visibility of the Doron Valley and the tree would not help. I don't know how far we can move it, but we can move because there are utilities that run.

I think a priority for me is visibility that front door, but I don't speak for everyone. Um, Mr. Gova talked about how the fire department's personal cars were going to use something to get out. Can Can you show that how that works? I I was unclear what what are they using? I think the testimony regards to they they parked back here, right? And under current conditions, they drive over what is the existing sidewalk. Okay.

That that runs between orong basically between our building and the property line and it's always getting damaged. So I think my understanding is they can come out and now there's no sidewalk here. They can use our driveway as well for But they're going in your driveway. Which direction? Well, to come out because they have fire trucks, I think sometimes back here. So, they'd be they can come out this way on on your driveway that goes the other direction. That seems dangerous. I'll let Dave explain. Um, [clears throat] hold this.

So, the the [clears throat] conversation with the with the fire department was split into two different vehicle types, right? This was their personal car. [clears throat] I understand. Their apparatus is in the in the the bay of the fire station and that can come in and out the way it is. Um sometimes because they have the luxury of it because there is space next door, they do take it out to wash it on our site and do some other things. We haven't negotiated that particular uh line item. Um but their personal cars are behind the fire station and the idea [clears throat] is not that they need to get out to Valley Road. It's just that they need to be able to move them out of that space as the shift change is coming. So they would follow the directionality.

Can you just show it on the map the route they would take? So the vehicles are back here. The idea is that and if you could hold the mic up just so we catch this. Thank you.

The idea is that back here uh they need to get out as cars are coming into their site. So, as long as they have the ability to cross the property line, they don't I mean, it was told to me that they don't mind going out in the directionality that we've uh proposed for this, they just right now they come out and they either go around the bank. I don't know if they're going the wrong way on the on the ingress or egress right now, but it's about them being able to manipulate vehicles without having to fully evacuate this lot prior to new cars coming in. So, could you draw us a plan that shows how they're going to exit to make sure they're not coming onto oncoming cars entering your space or make an agreement with them how they're going to use your property?

It just seems like a dangerous condition if they decide to go out straight onto Valley this way. Correct. We've not we've not discussed them doing that. Have you discussed We've discussed them following Yeah. following the direction out. And do you have anything in writing about documenting that or anything? No, because we we would want this board to opine first as to whether or not they agreed with it. But we're we would document this condition. We can memorialize that. We would memorialize this condition, but there was never the request that they be able to go the wrong way on on this drive aisle. It was just simply to cross the property line to get out rather than use their oneway in here.

Okay. And they can make that turn. Well, I'd like to see that. It's sort of [clears throat] they can go straight across this the the vehicle depending where their car is parked. Can we can we just get a little better of a a plan for how that's going to work? I I don't know how to get a plan from the fire department cars. To be clearer, yeah,

this condition that you're discussing now with the fire department is what's currently occurring. Do you anticipate that that will continue to occur once the development has been uh constructed? What is currently occurring is that they are not treating the property line as if it is a property line. They're crossing a sidewalk and they are crossing our driveway. I I don't have eyes on what they're doing on a day-to-day basis. But right now, they have some vehicles that cross here. They can do that. You're allowing them. Yeah, I'm going to allow them to continue.

My question, and I think I think Nicole's question relates to what's going to happen in the future. Is that situation going to occur that the fire department vehicles will enter your property in order to eress down into the into the municipal lot? That is why we shifted the building this way was so that they had they weren't landlocked back here with only I don't know if it's 10 or 12 feet. They have a oneway in right here. So if a if a shift if a a new officer was coming during a shift change and this guy had to leave and my building was abudding the property line, he would have he would be in a you know there'd be you'd be landlocked

if you don't mind. Following that up, is it possible will it be possible for someone coming into your driveway to go into the fire department lot? physically there will not be a barrier. Um, but their lot's not striped. I don't think it's not it's it's it's more of a parking area behind the fire station than it is, you know, an engineered parking lot. It's just where they put their vehicles.

No. And so there would be no physical barrier between those two. So once your site is developed, if the board grants your approval, then fire peerson persons coming onto their shift could conceivably come into your driveway and then go into the rear of the parking of of the fire department and into that lot. Correct. And that's that's going to be okay with you. Correct. Just wanted to clarify that if that was some written memorialization. We plan to memorialize this. I felt premature because your concern is that they they don't exit to Valley Road that they exit.

It's a it's a new entrance into a parking lot that's not designed specifically for that entrance. I I don't know how often they get off shifts. I don't know if it's 10 cars an hour. I don't know if it's one car a day. It's it's very unclear. But you're you're creating this parking plan for a certain vehicle movement. Yet there's this secondary vehicle movement into your parking lot probably on a daily basis that is not clear to the board. What's that? What's that look like? I don't think there's a lot of vehicle movement with the fire. I don't know. I have no That's the question I would like to have answered. They're usually on 24-hour shifts. I I can't I won't be able to answer that question. The fire department can answer. Maybe maybe next time you can have the fire representative from the fire department here because it

you want me to call the fire department. Well, this is your application. Isn't it? We don't I can't get the fire department to come here and testify. They're not. Okay. So then I don't know how we can approve that part of your application. I'm not asking for anything. You've said many times that's a use that the fire department come here, right? And so we can bring subpoena them. We're going to subpoena them. Okay. I'm not saying [laughter] I'm just like I'm just saying I'm not requesting any relief related to it. This is a condition to address the board's issues. We'll bring the fire department here to answer your questions clearly

because but but you're describing a condition that you don't have details on. And that's where I think we're having some challenges understanding how safe is it? How often does it happen? And I recognize you can't testify to that, but this is part of your application saying this will happen. So, we need somebody who can testify to

I understand. I'm saying I I didn't realize. I'm saying it's a municipal function that will occur that we're trying to not prevent from occurring despite having a legal right to prevent it from occurring. We we are very engaged with not doing that. I anticipated that the fire department communicates with the planning department at a or the planning board at a higher level than it appears that they do. I'm happy to have them here. I I just I didn't know I could call the fire department as witness. No, no. We'll we'll invite them to come to the June 1st meeting. Yeah, that's the proper way to do it. Okay.

Um I just Sorry, I have one more question. I actually am not a lighting expert, so maybe you could weigh in on the corner of um All right. So, on your lighting plan, I guess that's the northeast corner, um where it's 2 the light levels, but then there's also a tree creating shade on that corner. Um, I was just worried about this how that would feel because you I you know ideally people are using the side the sidewalk both in front of the building on the side of the building or is point to a low light level. Yeah, that's

okay. So we have this whole area plus we have a tree and the way the sun will come it will create shade because the sun is hitting it that way. Um so can we can that corner be addressed in terms of the low light level? Sorry this is not uh is it? Nope. The other side to the east. Yeah, northeast. I mean, that that also is low lighting. I mean, there's a lot of I'll expand on Miss Wallace's comment. There's a lot of low lighting here. If.5 foot candles is the minimum, there's a lot of areas that don't meet.5 and how will you address that?

Well, the areas, I'll check the areas that didn't meet.5. I thought we're in the islands, but northeast is [snorts] So to the right is the north northeast on this one where that second uh what was it the horn beam it's planted in front of the building on the along the street. Yeah. If you look right you're talking about in the street. Well where the driveway and the sidewalk I mean it's driveway. It's sidewalk. It's your property

not the street. I'm a little confused. Are you talking I'm confused at where you're talking. The rear of the site or the front of the site? No. Right. Right where you have your mouse. At least I believe that's where Ms. Wallace is talking. That's where point two. You've got several points. You've got 0.1's in the the driveway where the sidewalk and the driveway are overlapping. will say

we will we'll address them and comply with the the 0.5 minimum. We'll address them in the revised plan. We'll look and see where we're below and we'll address them. Yeah, I know I know areas that are below the northeast, the southeast, northwest, and southwest. this computer. So, kind of the corners I'm having trouble with particularly along that crosswalk, right? If the crosswalk, that sidewalk, um the exit, you know, the egress.

I mean, I'm okay with a little extra lighting in that parking area, especially around the the ADA space. I personally think that's okay. We just we need to meet the but I get more concerned about low light and then it looks like there's some extra spillage maybe onto the Talbett's lot which I think that's a parking lot so maybe that's not a huge deal. We'll make sure we have 0.5 in all uh pedestrian areas we'll call it. Okay. So you can submit a revised plan. Thank you. Hope Miss Wallace does that does that help

address your question Mr. Orba? Thanks Keith. Um I have two questions. One is broad and another one's specific. The broad one is uh when we're talking about chapter 347 um for the 80% impervious coverage cap this is a bold dimensional standard which relates to form size shape mass footprint right but I understand that um we're satisfying 295 with the performance standards of the uh storm water and overperforming in some capacity. Uh my first question is connected more to chapter 347 which is not only addressing storm water uh it's only also addressing mitigating urban heat islanding effect um greenery and landscape and the streetscape uh supporting tree canopy pedestrian friendly amenities

are you reading from the section of the ordinance um I'm reading based on the my interpretation of chapter 347 a question is based on my opinion Yes, I'm not quoting the section. The section just wanted to make sure

literally states verbatim impervious surfaces shall not exceed 80% of the lot area and it does not grant a specific if if it surpasses a certain amount of performance of storm water then you're entitled to whatever based on that. It does not say that. It just says impervious services shall not exceed 80% of the area. U which is why I'm interpreting it this way, right? is not just managing storm water. Um so my first question is is there a way to address this um beyond storm water? Uh there's more than a tree or two that we're discussing. It's like that's why the 80% is there. It's because we it's intended that more percentage of that space would be connected to supporting wildlife and many other things. And the master plan supports this idea as well. That's the first question. Uh and the second question is relating to storm water. The retention capacity is is these gallons are connected to 10year uh uh water event a 100redyear storm.

Well, we're not required it's still on. Those are not required to design to a certain storm event. The Montlair ordinance only requires that we manage uh two [clears throat] gallons per every new square foot of impervious area on the site. Right. But my I guess my point in that question is that you're seeking relief on a variance based on saying that you're addressing storm water. Correct.

What I'm which we would like a variance. I would think that the benefit will need to outweigh what what you're what you're requesting. And and then in that sense like it's at least worth studying uh what storm water event is is this mitigating especially since the entire area has an issue with this but we're providing five times more five times what we're required to but isn't that

the question that specifically I'm asking is in the event of 100year storm what percentage is that five times is it substantial and it covers completely then great if it's 5% % of that. I don't know that number and I would like to know that number. Okay. I mean just for context um lot coverage I I couldn't find impervious coverage. My understanding the ordinance is it's lot coverage.

Well, it says impervious coverage. It's 80% maximum impervious coverage in our ordinance. We went I can tell you I have emails back and forth with UN Neglia questioning this saying I I would like to do permeable pavement to reduce impervious coverage. You said that's not going to help your lot coverage which is the variance we're seeking. So there's some confusion on certain things in the ordinance maybe. I don't know. I think

I think the discussion was related to reducing how impervious is considered for storm water management. Providing impervious papers or permeable pavement does not negate you needing to provide somewhat of management for your increase. It's still considered as impervious whether or not it's permeable pavement or not. And I believe what I referenced was regarding the issue of imperous coverage compliance from chapter 347. That's more of a zoning issue, not a storm water management issue, right?

So that's viewed differently, which I believe I referred you to Janice, the zoning officer for that. So basically our ordinance requires 20% of the site to be pvious. I know it's not that condition right now, but from a zoning perspective that's what what is required.

Okay. So back to your we're asking a variance. We're allowed 80%. The existing is just under 84%. We're proposing 97. So we've designed a system that as council mentioned is over five times size. You want to put, if I understand it correct, you want to know what storm event does that equate to this 28,000 gallons we're providing because originally we designed for just the roof drainage for a 100redyear storm. Uh now we're being asked to take additional area and bring it in. So I would have to calculate okay now what is our system size for? Is it a 50-year storm? Is that do I understand your question correctly? In in a way I'd like to think that if we do grant this forward then the public benefit uh is is beyond your side only. That is the nature of granting a variance. So if if if uh creating a stormwater system that captures not just your lot but the lots in the surroundings and and

improves the quality of storm water effects then I I think I think that's super interesting and we can look into that. But my question originally was what is the event of a 100redyear storm in in your lot? I'm not sure I can answer that. First question, we're not taking storm water from other lots and bringing them onto our site to detain them. We're just dealing with our lot. Okay. All the flow currently goes to that back lot.

We're taking probably after the next revision 80 to 90% of this lot and putting it into a detention system that will infiltrate. So, it's a huge benefit to the lot behind us where currently there is zero storm structures on site. That whole lot just drains to that back lot. So, I mean, I can put a storm event to what we're capturing if that's what you're asking. But, right, it's just a relationship of how much uh how well your system will perform in a 100redyear storm in your site. It's very specific. It can be quantified.

It can, but I with the change we're being asked to make, I have to go re-quantify it, bringing more in. So that's And if I just for the record to be clear, I think you testified earlier that the system as proposed was accounting for the 100red-year storm of the roof area. That's correct. Correct. Correct. Okay. So, we're going to take more area in, but we we're not making the basin bigger. So, we're still going to comply with Monontlair's ordinance, but now we won't be sized for the 100red-year storm. It's probably going to be greater than the 50 year storm still, but I'd have to run the numbers again. [snorts]

Other questions from the board? I've got a couple. Um, how many trees are you removing, if any? One. One. the one as you go out that rear driveway to the left. Okay. That one. Okay. And you're adding four. Four. Two. Two in the rear, two in the front. Two on front. Correct. Okay. And the landscaped areas, the triangles that you talked about for snow stores are those are landscaped, right? You've got some small shrubs in there. So, are they really going to function as snow storage? U, I mean, I know you noted it that way, but

they're going to put the snow there. Uh, I mean, if the shrubs don't survive, they have to replant them. That's the best way to answer that. But, okay. And otherwise off, they're smaller shrubs, just so we know. They're not large, so they will get covered. Uh, if they die, most survive, but then they have to replant. Okay.

Um, quick question on the parking that's used by the fire department. Right now, there's a sidewalk that's right up against the property line. You're putting that sidewalk against the building. There's a couple little curbs that the that the fire department cars, the personal car has jumped down, you know, small curbs. There's a cobblestone up against the asphalt that's behind the on the side of the parking uh the fire station. Then there's another little curb that is between the existing sidewalk and the this lot. So, how smooth is is the pavement going to be when you build out your driveway? Where will that will there will there still be a curb that's along uh the property line that there's a specific kind of curb cut that the fire department cars would go through or is it just going to be totally flat um between the two lots?

The intent is to tie into the the grades with the fire department. So it would be like one big asphalt area. Correct. Would that slope into this property? No, right now that fire department kind of runs along the property line down towards the stairs. Okay. So that's pitching toward the back. Yeah. Okay. All right. Thanks. Yes, sir.

Yeah. I think just picking up on that some of the other conversations as you're you know I know we'll get the fire department here but as you're thinking about um I don't know if it's the interaction of your testimony but with the fire department but you know things that that come to my mind is where along the property boundary will the fire department trucks enter and as they turn onto the property can they make the turn without swinging onto the sidewalk? Does there should there be some sort of signage that lets drivers who are coming down that driveway know that there might be cars entering from the right because I think naturally I wouldn't expect that. Things for you to consider for the next time. That's you know those those are that's where I want to go and you know at least get some answers when uh you come back.

Understood. Um, what's the difference in elevation of the the parking parking lot area in the back to the municipal lot? Uh, about 3 ft three right at the the wall. I'll say where you enter the municipal lot. It's between 330 331. 331's on our site. The lot that drive aisle is 334. So, it's between 3 and 4T. Three and four feet. Do you need any fall protection or anything like that? Safety measures if it's a 4ft drop from the exist

from from the from your parking area down into the municipal lot right along that retaining wall if it's a 4ft drop. Do you need any sort of you know like a a fence for instance? No. something that prevents wall that turns in to our site from the existing wall is less than three feet height. I think one of the things I I would like to do is add a ballard or two just uh because the high side is on the parking lot. So I think a couple of ballards there would be a good idea for some protection. I'm just thinking of people walking along there like they going to could they fall over? I mean, we're we're on the low side. The driveway is the low side.

Driveway's the low side. The parking area, parking spaces are the high side. So, yeah, someone in that stripe area. Yes, I understand what you're saying. Yes. Like, you know, people are going to be parking there, kids running around, you know, does it we could add some protection. It's it's a question. I don't know if you need to. That's kind of my question is I'm not saying I understand with with kids being present whether you need it or not it it probably not is it a smart idea and I'm not saying put a chain link fence up there because that's going to look terrible but if there is something that could be done it it seems to make sense to me. Y I agree.

As as one's exiting so you've got that you got the retaining wall to the right as one's exiting the property. How does one see around that? like what? Well, there's an the existing wall is is there, right? And then our wall turns into our site. It's actually lower than the existing wall. So, that's kind of an exist. How does one see around that? I mean, uh, we But you have good sight lines. Is there a car parked right there? Is there a car parked on the other side? I know that's one thing you're looking into is whether Yeah. Well, there won't be a car. Shouldn't be a car to the left. There could be cars to the right that park along that retaining wall.

And so will some will a exiting driver be able to see well? Like do you have your sight triangles like that? They'll be able to see well to the left. I don't know if cars can come from the the right. I have to check. They can't. But how does somebody see around that for pedestrians or another car backing out? I'm not sure how to answer that. I know you'll be back. You can give us some thought. I'm just because you know that there's no cars coming from the right. Um other than signage, you know, watch for pedestrian signs of that nature. I don't know what else we can do.

Okay. What else did I have? I think that was it for me. Any further questions from the board? No questions from the public for this witness about his testimony this evening. Yeah, that I mean come on up. If you could do it one at a time, you can form a line off to the left. Uh your choice.

Uh speak Jane Hansen again. Um, speaking of the municipal parking lot and the steps down to the parking lot, does your plan call for refurbishing them at all? Yes, it does. Okay. Um, and I just incidentally happened to be walking down uh driving down that aisle and some a mother and three children came out of the building further uh north to the north um just and it was very sudden

and um I think the drop from the um the steps into the parking lot is sudden and also if the line of cars are there people even now wouldn't be able to see it. It could be problematic and I just ask you to consider would you consider some signage that would indicate that that's that uh stairwell is there. I was just trying to understand this is going into the municipal lot. Yes. Going into the municipal lot. It's a pretty steep stairwell in my view. Existing stairwell.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. And so um and and with the line of cars part as you go down the stairs the line of cars is to your left immediately to your left. and I'm coming out of the the the uh the egress driveway and I make a right and somebody comes out from in front of the cars down the stairway. So, I think it's just important for you to consider some something to protect that that sign would have to go on the municipal property. So, if they're okay with adding signage, I assume we could. Um I have another question about the sidewalk on the north side of the building. Okay. Okay. How wide is that?

I believe it's five feet. Yeah. Given that there are likely to be a fair number of uh indivi parents with strollers um walking back and forth from the front of the building to the back of the building on that sidewalk. Um do you know if there's enough clearance for two stroll strollers to pass each other? I believe five feet will handle two strollers. Yes.

Okay. Um in terms of the um uh turn radiuses within the uh driveways and at the uh at the egress. Have you given consideration to the types of vehicles that vendors and contractors might bring onto the the property? Have you thought about that at all? And and what's your conclusion with respect to the adequacy?

We did. We actually provided a vehicle turning analysis as part of our drawing set and we used the largest vehicle that would be anticipated for the site, which is kind of a an Amazon delivery or UPS delivery truck. Mhm. and that's able to navigate around the turn and out that ends of driveway. Okay. Thank you. Um, okay. Thank you. Thank you. I realized I did have another couple questions. Um, on parking, you've got the light pole that's to the west side. Will that impede on the parking?

The inspect is to put it right on this the stripe behind the stripe. So it should not impede. But it's got some it's got some width to it. I think it's shown as 18 in wide. The foundation that it sits on will be 18 in wide. Yes. But that won't that's not one of those foundations that comes up out of the ground. It would be 18 in wide below. Come out. But it So I know you've seen them in other lots where they put them right on the stripes. Right. So does it impede into the space a little bit on each side? Yes. Yeah. And how how many can you it's when you come back tell us how many inches and is that going to impede someone parking in that spot or cause them to

it's not going to impede parking in that spot. Um see it's an 18 inch footing back maybe 9 in in that corner. So they'll be parked 9 in further towards the aisle. Uh yes. Okay. And does that change your drive aisle width as to where they're going to park? Unless it's uh I'll say a van car. It it it might I'll have to look into that. Okay. I I'll give you an exact number. Okay. Um you know, I'm sorry.

Cadillac Escalade. What about that? That might stick out of any 18 foot spot. Mr. Chairman, if I if I just may offer a suggestion. Um I think it as you go kind of reook at um it may be helpful just to I know the intention and I agree it's typically you know you put it in the center of the stripe. Um but in this case because it's angled spaces perhaps it may be more helpful if you cheat it a little to the north. That triangle is usually kind of dead space.

Yeah. because of the angle of how the car parks in versus it looks a little more heavy on the south as currently shown and that would be more of an issue for cars pulling in that corner. So, just something to consider. Okay, makes sense. And then my other question was related to the height of the signs that are I think there's a stop sign right near the crosswalk, you know, along that sidewalk. I think there's a what I believe is a stop sign there. We have signage before that crosswalk to alert. Yeah.

Just is that is the height and the width of that sign going to impede somebody walking through that crosswalk? Like I don't know how high it is. Just maybe that's indicated in the detail. Yeah. I mean it I mean it's a a standard sign, you know, for MEPCD signage. So trying to But it looks like it no looks like the sides of it side of the crosswalk. But it looks on Let's see which drawing am I on? Drawing C950.

C950 which is titled vehicle analysis. Yes, it looks like there's two. So, if I look at uh the crosswalk that goes from your sidewalk to the sidewalk that then leads to the stairs to the municipal lot, it appears there are two signs that both impede on the width of that crosswalk. The signs aren't too scale. They're drawn that way so you can see them, but they they won't be the sign itself won't infringe on the on the crosswalk. It won't. I understand your question. Yeah, that's that's that's where I was getting at. Thank you. It's late and I'm not being clear. Mr. Hernandez,

and just to answer your question, um, MEUT TCD requires 7 foot of clearance. Okay. Underneath from the sidewalk elevation to the bottom of the sign. Perfect. So, they would have to comply with that. Maybe you could add a detail showing that. You wanted to make sure that the sign itself doesn't impede into the cross in case a seven foot guy is walking on them. I I guess if there's a seven foot b 7 foot tall basketball player like I I was more thinking because I've had to duck around. stop signs and I'm not a particularly tall person. Understood. I just wanted to get ahead of some, you know, future issue, potential future issue. Understood. All right. Questions from the public. Sorry question. [laughter]

And I don't know if you can answer this if it's within your Bailey Wick, but um do you uh does the developer or do you expect that cars will be heading north on Valley Road and make a left-hand turn into the egress driveway? Ingress driveway, sorry. Uh I don't think lifts are prohibited. The the the picture on the plan shows a car heading south and turning right into the driveway.

Can I show you? Mike, you're you're Yeah. You're referring to drawing C950, right? That's it. Yeah. We we the intent of that drawing was to show how cars can get through our site. We just chose a car coming from the right to show that they don't cross. They can to make the turn into the driveway staying on our property. But you do. Can one come from the left and turn in? Sure. There'll be no prohibition against that. I'm not aware of any on Valley Road that prohibits left into business. I guess what I'm asking is would the you and the developer think that would be prudent

because of the traffic in the area? It's a county road issue. I mean, everybody else come going that direction and make a left turn to Starbucks to Talbot, right? And of America, it's a problem. Well, I I understand. I just wondered if anyone had given thought to restricting uh the turn. No, we haven't. Okay. Thank you.

Were there questions before? Like did I I'm just worried I might be asking the same question, but no. Uh there were questions of the other witness that we heard from tonight. There were um but this gentleman um he started I don't know what 9 910 or so testifying. So yeah I guess it it might be um your name oh sorry Jennifer May m a y and are you a resident of Montlair? Yes. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Um yeah. So I was wondering um how many employees are going to be using the parking spot? How many employees are in the building?

That's going to be a question for another witness who hasn't testified yet. Who hasn't testified yet? Yeah. Okay. Because provided at the next meeting. Okay. Because I'm pretty familiar with aquatics and I know there's a lot of people who are required to be there and it doesn't seem like there's going to be enough space. This will be this will this is the time for questions of this witness. Just for this. Yes. Okay. Um the the part of the that part of Valley Road that's just north. Do you know where that crosswalk is? Um it's like

is it is that the Cooper one? Well, it's it's it's right in that vicinity. It's the only crosswalk that's that's there for people. Yeah. And it's it's quite an an abused pedestrian area. People don't always go to that crosswalk. So, with all the extra uh people, is there going to be another crosswalk that's added maybe on the other side? We're not proposing any additional crosswalks uh on public property, public rightway or the county right away. No,

the county would have to do that. Yeah, we we do have to submit to the county. If they suggest something like that, we'll do it. But it hasn't been reviewed by the county yet. That's a county road. Okay. Well, it's it's a very that that whole area for pedestrians is very tenuous. Okay, that's all then. I I'll wait for the next person.

Thank you. Hi, Arlene Karini. I own new and one savvy design and upper Monlair. Um, I have a question for you. You're going above the expected drainage and I understand why, but are you also doing that because you have to empty the pool every once in a while and needs to be able to sustain that? No. The drainage we're providing has nothing to do with the pool. So, how do you drain the pool? That's a question for the operator. Okay. I don't know how often they drain it. If they drain it, I couldn't tell you that. Well, sometimes kids do things in pools and they have to

the operator will deal with the operator will deal with that. Okay. So, I'm just curious to know if that's the reason why you're going over and beyond and I can tell you that they don't drain the they they never drain them. They don't drain them anymore. They don't need [snorts] to. No. Okay. But you can ask the operator. Okay. Um, who's to say that the people going to the swim school won't park in the parking lot of the fire department? Is there a way to distinguish that that belongs to the parking? The parking belongs to the fire department. Uh, I mean again you you can add a sign that tells people do not park on in the fire department property, but

because this whole application is based on the placement of the building of the parking spots based on the fire department and allowing them to come through the property to get in and out of their driveway. Correct. Just adding the question. Yes. Um, [laughter] can you answer that for me? I thought it was more of a statement. You said this whole application. Well, it's time for questions. So, I try to turn [laughter] things into, you know, even if somebody gives a statement, I try and turn it to a question to stay within the bounds. Right. You're asking how do we prevent people who might want to park on the fire department property?

Right. uh other than signage, it's all you can do. Is there a way to make a clear depiction of like that this is the fire department's driveway and this is the driveway for the swim school? We can add a stripe. I think that would make a safety sense. You do. We can add a a white stripe along the property line. Okay. Um might be able to just treat the apron as well a little bit differently. different color, something like that. Because you said there wasn't going to be an apron, right? You said you were going to join it together with the driveway that they the ingress apron. Okay.

Yeah. No, they're the driveways will abide each other, right? So maybe making stripe between just so that people know not to like go that way or for the firemen to also pay attention to oncoming traffic. Um, there's also a driveway to the left of the driveway that you're proposing to exit into the Montlair Plaza. There's not a stop sign there, which maybe the planning board can ask. I don't know if that driveway belongs to Talbitz or who it really belongs to, but having a stop sign outside of the swim school going into that parking lot, I think, would be a great idea. If you can propose that, or I can propose that. I think we have one there. You do have one. those stop letters and and a sign.

Okay. Is there a way the planning board can also urge for the driveway next door to do that so that they're not bumping into each other? If it's on our parking lot, we can certainly add a stop sign on our parking lot. It's on private property. We can't. Okay. Something we can look at. But you guys said you owned it earlier. No. Excuse me. Montlair owns it or we own the parking lot. You own the parking lot. So that driveway should be part of not Talbot. So where the Talbot's property I don't believe is township owned. It's that driveway. That driveway is not. That's not ours.

Okay. So can we ask Talbittz to put a stop sign there for safety reasons? I think that's an entrance. I saw somebody exiting out of there today. I mean that's it's beyond this application and it's not something that we can recommend. I mean, if the just for safety, just so that I don't dis I don't disagree. All we can do is look at how our parking lot operates. Correct. And if if if we can put a stop sign or a stop sign on our parking lot, then that's within our power. Okay. Right.

Okay. I appreciate that. Those are the only questions I had. Thank you. I only stayed because I thought the planner was going to speak tonight. That was my mistake. Frank, we're backing. It was getting a little late. Okay, I'm going to be quick. ADA, just make sure you hold the mic. ADA. Last meeting, I asked if there was a necessity, there's a need for a ramp of the walkway uh to the upper Montlair Plaza. And did you get an answer for me?

Is there about connection from Valley Road down the steps into the public lot if it's if we need to make that uh ADA accessible? Is that the question? Yeah. You're improve the the conversation was you're making an improvement to your sidewalk. It's not a public sidewalk. It's a private sidewalk that's publicly accessible. Correct. there. There's no easement. There's no right of the town for that. The fire department has no right on it. Right. I haven't found anything. Okay. So, it's your property. You're making an improvement.

It's not going to be ADA accessible. This was my question. I don't really care at this point at this hour. I don't care. Don't make it a I just want an answer. Well, just Yeah, just let him answer it then. I don't believe we need to provide ADA access into the public municipal lot from our property. Okay. Well, let's we provide ADA access. Okay. To our site into our building.

Okay. Um the the whole curb stop parking lot thing. Two sides of the parking lot. One is the elevated wall side facing on to upper Montlair Plaza. And by the way, I keep calling it upper Montlair Plaza for a reason because it's not a parking lot, it's a street. And I think street counselor, do your homework just for once. Um, okay. Well, this one has a public part public. Yeah, I know you didn't read all the ordinances though. Okay.

So, maybe you should do that because I'm in no mood. Can we just ask questions here? Excuse me, Mr. Rachi. Okay. Can we just ask questions of those? Ask a question. Okay. Thank you. So, you have no safety measures for cars parking on an elevated parking space with a 4ft drop. Is that my understanding? There's no curb. There's no fence. There's no nothing. And we have really great drivers in town, but every once in a while we get a stupid one. Let them let them answer. We have ballards there. Ballards in front of all the spaces. That's correct. Are they indicated on the plan? That's correct. And they don't infringe on the 18t. No.

I'm sorry. 22 foot for an angled space, right? The length of a angled space is 22 feet. Perpendicular length. Okay. Flip side. Other side. angled spaces, no curb stops, no um tire stops. What prevents the overhang of the car infringing on the ADA path to the back to the main entrance? There's ballards on along those spots as well. Okay, great. Thank you. You're welcome.

Um next is what will we have a condition that may be on your prop? It's on your property. It's on the county right away in which the fire department has made a big issue here tonight in absenteeism and in sorry my land sucks um where they have striped the the space the the area in front and extending um at an angle to either side of their property. People generally have ignored it. It's been prior testimony. It's a it's a huge problem. We talked about the fire department crossing over and using your property to exit. What steps what further steps will you take for the visitors to your lot using the fire department driveway in two ways? one, first a car parks in the driveway before the stop sign because they have a stroller and they have an infant and the infant seat is usually right behind the driver. So, they're going to exit the vehicle from the left side, which means they're going to pull up to the sidewalk, take the kid out of the out of the car seat, put him in the stroller, the car will be there the whole time. the scenario where then everybody else in order to just get through the lot, forget that they want to park, they have to go around or wait. What is the scenario? What is the plan for handling those situations?

Are you suggesting that a person's going to pull into our driveway, park in the driveway, the entry driveway to unload their child? I'm not I'm just trying to clarify. I'm sorry. They're not going to park. They're going to stand. They're going to come in and they're going to have strollers. You're making a sidewalk wide enough for strollers. Okay?

You're going to have strollers. That means you have infants. That means you have car seats. Not everybody's going to arrive on foot. So my question is, what happens when you have, you know, one or two people that have infants? They get there and they see the sidewalk. They know the child seats behind them. They say, "I'm just going to stop here. There's space that can go around me." They do that all the time in Upper Montlair. We talk about the Uber drivers. We talk about all kinds of things going on. So, my question is, how do you address a potential situation where your sole travel aisle is blocked by somebody standing unloading?

Well, There's an old expression, you can't design for stupid. Well, we're trying. It's called complete streets. But well, hang on. Let let them let's get back on top on topic here. I mean, other than an operational issue and telling people and sign you can't stop or park in the driveway. That's really all you can do. So, there's no engineering solution to somebody who blocks the driveway and causes a backup out into Valley Road for your site. There's physically space because we have we are join with the fire department property. I'm talking about your property. So there's no solution on your property if a single car blocks your single access route through the property.

Correct. Okay. Out. [snorts] We're not taking any more witnesses, right? No, there's going to be no more witnesses [laughter] tonight. Okay. Is this the right place to ask about when the fire truck needs to come out? I'll need your name again. Oh, sorry. Jennifer May. Okay. Asking. So, when there is a fire emergency, is this the right witness to ask about how that how that pattern how that works? Is that you? Is that the fire department? Is that the parking expert? My opinion would be the fire department who could answer that best.

Okay. Sounds like when we'll have the fire department here hopefully at the next hearing. Okay. And that's the probably the right person to ask. But they'll they'll have to be informed of what type of traffic is going to be there so that they can respond.

I mean come out now onto Valley the trucks park in the building and come out onto Valley Road currently. That's not going to change. No, that's not going to change. But for swimming school, you have people uh coming and leaving at the same time. They overlap. People arrive 15 minutes early for a swimming lesson and they leave about 15 minutes after. So, in other words, you have people, you don't just have one people come in and then there's a break there. The lessons are like backtoback. So, so there's, you know, there's the amount of people coming and going is going to be an hour's worth of people, not 30 minutes worth of people because you have people coming and going as the lessons the people overlap. They don't they don't

I think but what Well, hang on hang on a second. You're we're going to hear from the operator about how it it works. So, I you know, we'll have that testimony and then we'll be able to understand whether what you're saying is true or not. I suspect it's probably pretty close to that, but we'll have testimony from the operator as to how, you know, how that process works. That's good. Just so that the fire department can hear that and they can give us whether or not they think it's going to be, you know, I think, yeah, because we haven't heard expectations for the number of cars coming in, going out, you know, we haven't heard that information yet. So, you know, they will present that. I assume the parking expert will realistically there's a fire, alarms go off

uh and they come out street and they come out. Well, and they can testify to that, right? Yeah. I mean, I I think that is what happens, but they'll be here to testify to that. Is that the next meet the next planning? I hope so. I mean, we haven't confirmed with the fire department. Like, we can't make their schedule, but um once we finish with all the um questions for this witness, we will then discuss a date that will be the next time they'll be before us. So, we'll announce that here um and we'll go from there. Sounds good. Yes. Thank you. Ann Marie Nardone,

just uh three questions. Does the fire department have their own driveway or is it just one driveway that belongs to the applicant? They have their own driveway. So why wouldn't we keep it divided so that that stop and pull around doesn't happen? It was a request of this board to move the sidewalk towards the building side. Okay. Put the driveways together.

So, that's one question. The other is construction vehicles. You talked about like an Amazon truck would be able to move around, but now when they do the construction, how are they going to move around? I'm assuming you're going to need like big construction vehicles. Yeah. I mean to demo the building and do construction that they'll come in off Valley Road. Okay. Will that impede though like the traffic from the municipal lot or for the fire department? It should not have any should not impede anything within the municipal lot. Okay. Those are Yeah, because they can't come through our property. They can't come they can't come through but you won't allow them to.

No, it's one way going out that way. Last question. When is the next meeting? We will we will figure that out after everybody is questioned. Okay, that's it. Thank you. Know when the next meeting is, not when this Well, yeah, I mean to be I assume she was asking when are when's this applicant coming back? Yes, we know when our planning board meets. No, I trust me, I'm I'm in that category, too. Um, other questions from the public for this witness. Okay, then maybe we'll get we'll get right to this point. So, Mr. Trumbulac, um obviously it's past 10, so we're not going to take new witnesses tonight.

Um we would ask for an adjournment and consent to any necessary extension of time for the board to act. Okay, Miss Tally, when's the next time we can hear this applicant? We can uh put this on the June 1st meeting? June 1st. Okay. So, this will be continued to June 1st. No further notice will be required. So June 1st, barring any changes, they'll be back before us. And Mr. Trombulac, just so folks can hear this, uh, you plan on presenting whom at the next meeting, uh,

subject to change and anything else? Well, I believe our intention was would be to present the oper, you know, representative of Swim Quest who will describe the operation and then our um um traffic engineer who will discuss parking. Okay. And Mr. Jacer will come back at some point to discuss some site plan changes, I assume, at some point, based on his testimony tonight, that meeting or a following meeting. Okay. So, chances are folks from the public, we're not going to finish on June 1st. I think that's actually the intent because you're not going to have all your witnesses on June 1st, right, Mr. Trenulan? Right. We still have Mr. Stack whenever. So you'll have a planner probably at a July meeting.

July 6 is the date that he's available. So Okay. So chances are we'll well we definitely will go to June 1st and then chances are we will also continue it to July 6th when there witnesses available. That's all subject to change, but that's the current outline right now. Janice, we're we're good for July 6th, right? Because again, I'm going to lose Mr. Stack if we don't. Yeah, I have nothing scheduled for July 6th yet. So,

well, then let's let's pencil them in for now because if Mr. Stack's not going to be here June 1st, you had a question on procedure hopefully. What I'm saying is they don't have to do the the mailing to everybody within the 200 ft. It goes on the website. Um we we were I think I was talking to uh the attorney at the break. You know, maybe there's a way we could put on the website for each application when the next tenative hearing is or when we expect them to be back before us. I don't know if that's possible, but let's talk about it. Okay, the communications committee.

Yeah, communications committee can handle that. So, we're we're we're talking about how to improve that a little bit. So, when I say no further notice require, it means they don't have to renotice in the uh with certified mail. Yes. But yes, that it'll go to the public um you know, in in the normal ways the township communicates for whatever that's worth. the will the agenda are always published? I mean, I know we had a clerical issue with this one, but in general, the agenda published like I download all of my meeting materials from the public website. So, I have all the same information the public does. Did you have another hang? I'm I'm sorry. I I can't hear you.

Who's the person we're waiting for? He is their professional planning witness. So, they have they put together the witnesses they want to present this application to the board and he's one of their witnesses. You're welcome. So, what do we say? June 1st. Yes. June 1st. We'll see you back here. And with that, I would move to adjourn. Second. I Good night. Have a good night, everyone. Amazon.