Business Improvement District Board #2 (historic Third Ward) - Regular Meeting

The historic preservation commission. Linda, would you take your role?

Anne P. Bryce and Brown. Yeah. Sally Paltz excused. Nicholas Hans Robinson excused. Patricia Keating Khan. Here. Mattiros.

Here. Jordan

Morales? Here.

Robert Baumann excused.

All right. First order of business, item number two 878, resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for mothball status at 2863 North Grant Boulevard in the Grant Boulevard Historic District for LaShaunda Anderson. Staff?

Yes. This

is a long term window replacement project and I will let the applicant give her update.

Okay. Right now, I'm continually working with thoughtful craftsman, working on the porch ordeal. So I'm just requesting a six month extension for the windows.

K. Any working with?

Thoughtful Craftsman, she said.

Oh, okay. Any problem with that?

Nope. She had she had had she has had some porch problems that are more structural that have somewhat delayed the window project. Right.

Okay.

So staff recommends approval of another six months.

All right. Do we have a motion?

So moved.

Second. All right.

All in favor? Aye. All right. Motion carries. Next item, 231339, resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for replacement windows and stucco repair at 2610 Westport Sunlight Way in the Garden Homes Historic District for Wesley S. Bentall.

Thanks. I believe Mr. Bentall is here as well. So if you would like to come up, this is another mothball review.

Okay.

Good afternoon, guys.

Hello. Afternoon.

Yep. Got the

seat. Got the seat.

If you wouldn't mind stating your name and your

address too. Wesley Bentall, 2610 West Port Sunlight Way. Yep, windows have been ordered. Menards just finished them. They were picked up today. So now it's just the process of getting them installed and getting the windows trimmed out. Okay.

Yep. So staff has worked with Mr. Bentall on the windows. Once he has those in hand, it's just a matter of us issuing the COA so he can get those installed. But we'd recommend another six months.

Right. And this matter we've already heard about in the past, I believe, correct? I'm sorry? We've already heard about this matter in the past.

We have. Yep. Okay.

So this is just a just a six month check-in. Okay.

Don't install the windows yet?

No. You can I think you can install Yeah?

I'll I'll get the certificate of appropriateness out to you and then alright. Yep.

You reviewed the window settler order.

Yeah. Was just a matter of he just needed to get the simulated divided lights. But we had agreed on an aluminum clad window, the GELD WEN aluminum clad window here. So he will install those with the six over six to match the rest of the historic district.

Okay. I see. Good luck. Any other comments from commissioners? No. Okay. And do we have a motion?

So moved. Second.

Second. Am I getting on the stucco then too?

Yeah, the stucco repair. Okay. There. All right. Cool.

All All in favor say aye.

Aye. All right.

That's unanimous. So move on to item number 221875, substitute resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for a phased project of deconstruction, storage, and reconstruction of the pavilion of the Pabst Mansion, 2000 West Wisconsin Avenue, an individually designated historic property for Captain Frederick Pabst Mansion Incorporated.

David Wirick with Klein and Hoffman, Architects for the architect working for the PEPF's mansion on this project. My address is 930 East Lyon Street. The certificate of appropriateness requires annual updates on this project. Not too much of a change from our update last year. Our update last year was the work of documenting, deconstructing, cataloging and storing the pavilion was about 95% complete at the time of our update last year.

So it is now totally complete. You can flip through a few of the slides here, Andrew. So as I mentioned last year, had the laser scanning. Every piece was labeled and cataloged, carefully deconstructed, and it is all currently stored in the basement. I've got an image of the laser scan.

Pieces being labeled and cataloged. And that's a picture of the completed project with the foundation now roofed with EPDM. So the pavilion has been totally deconstructed and it's currently stored all of the pieces are currently stored in the basement except for a few very large pieces that wouldn't fit in the basement and they're stored in a secured location off-site. So the pieces will be they are on labeled shelving units. Everything is clearly labeled in the basement.

It corresponds to the catalog spreadsheet so pieces can be easily found when the time comes for reconstruction. And the mansion is on like a ten year timeframe for planning the reconstruction. And there's no real no substantive updates to the mansion's plans for reconstruction at this time.

Okay. So

staff is recommending a one year review. There doesn't seem to be a lot of work that will be taking place over the next year. So we'll just check back in in Okay. A year's

Great. Anything else on this matter? No? All right. Do we have a motion to adopt staff's recommendation?

So move to review it then in Runningar. Okay.

Second? Second. All in favor? Aye. All right. Unanimous again. All right. Next one, 02/50119, resolution relating

to

a certicular appropriateness to replace the neon lighting on the Paps Bridge sign with LED rope lighting at 1203 North 10th Street in the Pabst Brewery Historic District for the Brewery Neighborhood Improvement District Number 1.

Okay. Thanks. So just to recap, we did review this at the June HPC meeting, but here are some images of the sign over Juneau Avenue. There's been a sign at the brewery since prior to

it being Pabst when it

was still Best Brewery in the 1880s. The Pabst sign, there is some discrepancy on when it was constructed over the street, it's definitely been up for quite a long time. The neon lighting was added sometime between likely the 1920s when neon lightings first started being used in advertising and signage from the '20s to the 1940s. Here is an image of the sign from the early 2000s. Can faintly make out the neon lighting that is within the letters on the sign on the Bridge.

So the applicant's proposal was sort of two parts, the first being to paint the exterior and interior of the letters on the sign. Staff had no objection with that. The second part of the project is to remove the historic neon lighting and replace that with Aurora Flex LED light strips that would approximate the color and the look of the neon lighting. So this was part of their sign package showing the flex lighting and that it would be more or less in the exact location of the existing NEON signage, noting that there may be a slight difference to a trained eye and taking a look at the replacement lighting versus the historic neon lighting. HPC at the June meeting had requested the applicants create a mock up, which they did.

And commissioners were able to go view the mock up on August 28 in the evening to take a look at the proposed mock up versus the historic lighting elements. Here's a little bit more on the flex design. So this was a photograph taken with my phone that evening. So you can see about a third scale letter T that had a mock up versus the full size historic neon lighting. There is and I would preface that it's easier to see in the photograph than on the ground, but you can tell in the photograph that there is a slight color difference.

You can also notice that there are slight differences within the neon lighting having areas where the different tubes connect are going to be a little bit more prominent versus the replacement lighting is a bit more of a flat effect. I mean it's just a nature of having the neon lighting with the different tubes that connect. You can make that out in sort of the middle of the S there or the top and the bottom of the B in the past sign.

Here is

another close-up. One thing that Commissioners did also note when we were there that evening is that the profile of the mock up had sort of more rounded corners whereas the Neon has sharp 90 degree corners. And the applicants noted that their signed contractor said that that was likely just a result of the scale of it being a one third scale model and that if it were the full size letters that they would be able to have it more closely resemble the historic

century.

Wisconsin Avenue here are some historic photographs of Wisconsin Avenue just showing just how prevalent the signage was in the city in the middle part of the twentieth century. And it's really a lot of it has been removed And there are very few examples left in the city of historic neon signage. Staff has noted that the PAPsk sign, staff feels that that sign and the neon lettering rises to the level of being an iconic sign. And I did read this at the last meeting, but we'll read this again, the section from the National Park Service's preservation brief on the preservation of historic signs where they say signs often become so important to a community that they are valued long after their role as commercial markers has ceased. They become landmarks loved because they've been visible at certain street corners or from many vantage points across the city for a long time.

Such signs are valued for their familiarity, their beauty, their humor, their size, or even their grotesqueness. In these cases, signs transcend their conventional role as vehicles of information and identifiers of something else. When signs reach this stage, they accumulate rich layers of meaning. They no longer merely advertise but are valued in and of themselves. They become icons.

And staff feels that the historic neon sign at the Papps Brewery along with perhaps the signage found at Leon's Custard or Kitts are some of the great examples of neon signage left in the city. The preservation guidelines for the historic district mention that there shall be no changes to existing trim or ornamentation except as necessary to restore a building to its original condition. The replacement features shall match the original member and scale design and appearance. And having been on-site and taken a look, it is a close approximation, but it is an approximation of historic material that exists on-site that is able to be serviced and repaired. And staff feels that much in the way we require homeowners to maintain windows and other trim that this is a part of owning a historic property is maintaining historic features, you know, much like we wouldn't allow a window that approximates wood.

We require wood windows And the signage is a historic neon sign in functional order, though with some acknowledged problems with moisture getting in the transformers. Staff recommends denial of the LED lighting and retention of the neon lighting and recommends that the applicants work with a sign contractor or electrical contractor to figure out other ways to prevent the moisture from getting in the transformers and flipping the GFCIs. In our previous conversation in June, that seemed to be the main issue is that individual letters would fail when moisture got in there. So staff's recommendation is to deny the LED rope lighting.

Okay. Have representatives from the applicants here.

Yeah. Mike O'Kelly, Chairman of the NED, 1125 North 9th Street. I know Patricia and Matt came out and got to see it in person. I don't know what else to add at this point. We've kind of gone pretty far down the field on this one. You know, I appreciate where they're coming from, but, you know, this is the way it needs to go for this sign. And this is really this is the only option we found to make sure that the sign is lit '20 fourseventhree sixty five. So that's kind of where we're at. I'm happy to answer any more questions you have.

Okay. Yeah, I got

a question.

Why do you say this is the way it needs to go? Why can't we get an electrical contractor to look at it? I assume you're an electrical contractor.

This is our sign vendor. At the last hearing, we talked about that GFCI technology has been reintroduced through the electrical code. The transformers in the sign need to be GFCI protected now. And when there is moisture because of where the sign is located on the bridge out in the Elvins, letters trip.

Multiple

times a month. There's nothing really we can do to prevent that. And the sign is not lit all the time. Right. It is a pretty significant nuisance. People rely on that being lit for a number of things. Brides come to have their wedding photos taken. It's not a great look when it's not lit. And this is the solution to solve that.

So the transformer can't be waterproofed or protected in any way to prevent moisture from intruding?

It's not only the transformer that's getting water. It's the neon connections right on the face of the sign. Every connection has got a boot on it, but those boots don't hold back all the water. It's any connection, but the transformer box itself can't be sealed. It's got a vent. And what gets in there is condensation. It's not necessarily rain getting in it. It's the condensation that gets in every sign, which is why we have drain holes and everything else in every sign that's out

there. And,

you know, the last hearing we walked through all the examples of historic signs that are now being retrofitted with LED, very famous signs across the country. This is not a unique example here in Milwaukee. This is kind of the wave of the future, to save these signs and make sure they're being lit to go into neon. The folks, Matt and Patricia, you can chime in, I think we've done a pretty phenomenal job trying to match the color and the profile. I'm pretty proud of the work they've done.

And I think it's extremely, extremely close. We upcharge, we went with a higher, a different type of LED to make sure we really could dial in the color. It's actually more of an orange than a red, the LED is. Don spent a lot of hours working through the settings to make sure we can get to the right color match.

That since the mock up you tuned up the color? No, no.

That's it. Yeah.

Yeah. I personally

think it.

The interesting thing is that when you're out there on the site, you don't see the lighting as white. You see it as red. I mean, it sort of all blends together. Maybe that's my eyeballs, but I thought it was very close. I thought it looked really good compared to the neon because it's so high. Yeah. It's hard to discern the difference. I, you know, I'm a purist in most everything. You know but this one doesn't seem to be offensive to me at all. So I thought it was pretty good, and I mentioned that to Andrew.

But, you know, everyone I don't I'm not an expert in the lighting, but I do think it looked pretty good.

What percentage of the time would you say that the sign is down, like it's not lit up, due to moisture?

Also, mention the cost of repairing it each time you

So when there's a total failure, that would be a release of the gas from the neon tubing. The letter obviously can't be. We have to have it repaired. And given where the signage is, it's actually affixed to a bridge that's connected to two different buildings. It's about 80 feet in the air.

When that happens, we have to close the street, hire a crane, sometimes remove the tubing, have it repaired off-site and brought back. That process costs somewhere around, you know, on average it's been about $4,000 and the sign is unlit, a letter is unlit for about a month. It's a pretty extensive repair process. It's not like a lot of other signs around the city where you can go on the roof or you can get a boom truck on the side of the building to have it repaired. The kind of daily nuisance of the GFCI transformers tripping, you know, it depends on the weather a bit, right?

When it rains more, happens more. I would say at least twice a month. Okay. So you're talking about 25 times a year that there is a letter out. And then if we've been having about one a year that a letter is broken

Where it needs to be taken off.

To have

the whole month. Yeah, a repair. You know, more substantial repair, obviously. So it's a common occurrence and that's kind of where we're coming from here. I've been involved with the NID for about ten years. I've redeveloped multiple historic properties in the neighborhood. I care a lot about this sign. We're not coming at this willy nilly. This is important. We want to make sure we're stewards of this.

If you know anything about the NID, it's like a bid but it also includes residential properties. So all the properties in the neighborhood contribute to the NID. We do clean sweeps. We do Christmas lights. There are two parks in the Pepsbury neighborhood that we maintain. And then this is really almost a it's a fixture. It's not really a piece of real property. That was transferred to the NID as well to make sure that it was maintained and cared for for the benefit of the whole neighborhood. So that's why we're here and why we're kind of proposing this solution.

Can appreciate

that. Are trying to save the sign and trying to find the best possible solution. I can appreciate that. I was not there to see this at nighttime, unfortunately. Just gonna toss this out there. If they get tired of repairing the sign and paying for it, so anything against the sign going darker.

Right.

You just let it go. Go. Right? Yeah. And then we lose the sign entirely.

Yep.

That's not any prohibition is there. Against them letting it just go away. So, we should think about that too. It's different than a building. You can write them up for building code violations and make them fix it. Don't think we have anything like that for signage. We can't make them fix it.

I like that comment. I wasn't thinking about that. That's really a good comment. And I do want to say a few things, if I could, I about this find this to be really interesting and also, as usual, very challenging about this matter of authenticity and substitute materials and all this kind of thing. And I've been involved in this for a long, long time. So I've thought about this very carefully over the years about what at what point do we kind of say that new that's that's think very

important

focused with my comments here, otherwise I'm going go in too many directions here about precedent setting and all that kind of stuff. And this is what I want to focus it on and is this, I really doubt that I will be able to tell the difference when you get it up. And that's important to me for sure because I can probably say that all of the other things that I and the staff and Carla and everybody's preceded you guys, get a lot of kind of sales. Don't worry, this vinyl siding, you're never going to tell the difference between that and Woodside. I'm going tell it, we're all going to tell the difference.

And we oftentimes kind of get that. So, have to think very, very carefully about this idea about a kind of a sales job on a new item or a new material or a new technique. But going out, it was important to see the up because I did expect to see some kind of maybe sort of dull spots or even the one thing we brought up was the And nice creased I do think that it doesn't take sort of a lot of convincing to see that the little t is softened because there's not much space. I don't even know if you're going to square it off much, but once it's bigger, you don't sort of see that softening that we see with the little ones. So, can kind of I think I can buy that.

And the color matter too, before I went out, I thought, all right, well, let's see what a substitute color, it's pretty close. And I think when we looked at the sign below here, which I don't think you have a photograph of, the Juno restaurant sign, the vertical sign? No. And I think I do on my phone. I just sent you something five minutes ago.

That kind of is a ret. That's not the it was really good to kind of see that relative to your T because you could kind of see that even a subtle change in whatever kind of fluid makes think that's a very good question. Question. Very good think respect the research and everything, not even the research you guys have done, but in the kind of the general philosophical positions of preservation that I've been part of for so long. So it is hard for me to go against that, but I really see here something that looks like it's a pretty reasonable kind of substitute and kind of the things that you just said right now.

I guess the option is just let it break and leave it there. Nobody going to So force me to sign there's a number of those kinds of components of my conclusion here. And I could bring up kind point. Very And I that's local register, do you think? No, it isn't. Isn't. Don't think so. So, it's pretty slim how many of these kind of are on the local. So, I guess, I just don't see a sort of a flood of substitute lighting. And as I said, I want to be careful not to go off in too many directions here.

So, I do think that it's pretty close and I think in this matter I can kind of say that I can accept this. And I want to put one also one important thing in my acceptance is that if it's possible, I'd like to see or somebody should see kind of the full scale mock up of, for instance, the T or how are we going to start it before you do the whole thing. Okay. This is not uncommon at job sites. We're sitting in a building here that had all kinds of nice mock ups of terracotta fifteen years ago that I came around to approve and what went out wasn't quite exactly what the mock up was like.

So, it's really important, I think, in this case to have a careful mock up. If you can not a mock up like that, but the real here's the letter, you're going to put it in, but before you do all three, say five, before you do all, maybe there's a slight comment we might have about coloration or something like that. So I'd like to see if that's possible.

I think that's a really good idea. One concern I had, if I look at my photos and came up immediately for me, was it may not be as intense. The light, the LED is not as bright as the neon. Woah, careful.

I didn't mean That to track

happens all the time. So, you know, it's definitely not as bright. And I was thinking, well, it's smaller, so that's why. But I think Matt's idea to make it in the right size and show us that would be great. Is that possible?

Anyway, you're going to make it. Right? Yeah. By getting it lit and in the shop, I don't know.

Well, it

would be in the shop. I don't think you're asking me to make a

full size. Oh, because we're reusing the

or can, as we call them, the actual letter.

Really, what we're doing out there is pulling out the Yes. We're keeping

Correct. And the neon glass is being removed and it's being replaced in the field. Good advice. Candidly, like, I would love to say yes, we can do that, but they have to remove the neon to put the LED in. Sure. So once that happens, it's kind of genie's out of bottle a bit. Whether you guys want to come and see it while it's occurring, I can't stop you from doing that.

You

can't stop coming

out to the public right I guess I do want to kind of see that and just sort of hope that we can proceed here as adults and get this thing properly. Sure.

It's also a wiring issue. I mean right now to get the RGB to be that color, I have electronics that have to get in line in that electrical and to try to have two different

ways of powering up.

But that's saying that there's not going to be a mock up. It's going to be the install and we can have you come Okay. Out

So you have the ropes up, but I know our friend Ken Brunig. He's doing all kinds of stuff with that Pritzlaff with his LED lighting.

So, of

course, I know that you have the possibility to kinda okay.

Yes. We can. It's actually on his phone.

That's what I thought.

There's broiler on your phone, and it's kind of like a a die dial a bit, like almost like a wheel and you can kind

of

either manually input, you know, if the r is going to be 40 instead of 45, and we did this. I did this with him in his office and we tried 10 different r values. And then we've I kind of decided this is the r value, what we're going to go with, this

is the color we can. And I had a piece of neon lit right next

to it when we were doing it,

and it's the same clear red neon.

I mean, we probably spent a half hour trying to really because he had, like, six, like, preset, like, think this is close. And then I came in and started playing with it a little bit. Really small. I mean, small, very, like it's very small differences. Right? But that's kind of how we land in

Are the lumens the same?

That's a good question. I do you know what the lumen is on a neon?

I know what that is, but I don't believe they're the same, though. I mean, the neon has got its own vibrance that we just can't nobody has replicated that exactly in neon or in LED. Just

Don't tell us that.

I know I shouldn't, but it's the truth. I don't like to lie.

Mean, being in the field and seeing it, you know, it's

It looks dimmer.

But it's close. I think it's pretty close.

Yeah. Okay. I believe we

have someone online that is looking to

give testimony on this issue. Mr. Ebersole? Would you mind introducing Absolutely.

Thank you very much. Are you hearing me okay?

Yes.

Great. Thank you so much. Well, good afternoon. Appreciate the opportunity to talk, chairman, members of the commission. It is a pleasure to be before you again. I am Jeremy Eversol. I'm currently at 17 Beach Street in Greenfield, Massachusetts. Some of you may remember me, hopefully fondly, as the from my recent tenure as the executive director of the Milwaukee Preservation Alliance. An aspect of my background that really didn't come off so much with MPA was my expertise in neon signs and their preservation. I served for a decade have served, currently, I'm on for a decade on the board of directors of the Society for Commercial Archaeology, which is a national nonprofit organization focused on commercial roadside architecture, including neon signs.

And my master's thesis was a 350 page tome on neon sign history, its value, and preservation strategies. And I've been privileged to be able to speak on the subject at national conferences and write for national audiences in the year since. So that said, well, I wanna acknowledge and appreciate the NIDD's genuine desire to be good stewards of this important historic resource and attempt to recreate the NIDD book. I'm here today to urge you to reject reject the application to convert what is Milwaukee's largest and really most iconic neon sign, which with what is really ultimately a cheap and throwaway substitute. The application states that we believe upgrading fixtures to LED will mitigate additional repairs and costs in the future due to how LED lighting has become a leading option in today's world.

I would replace that word LED with vinyl windows and consider how the commission might respond to to such a request. LEDs really are the vinyl windows of the lighting world and every bit as egregious from a preservation perspective. Photos, I don't think, really do justice to the true difference in the materiality and quality of light, as was just mentioned, between neon and LEDs that is more easily visible in real life. Neon lights sense of how where this comes from. Neon light is created by electrifying a gas within a vacuum inside a cylindrical tube that's elevated above the backing sign, which gives the light this soft omnidirectional glow that it's famous for, which looks similar from any angle.

LEDs, on the other hand, which are ubiquitous in modern Christmas lights and in modern car headlights, are thousands of tiny plastic little light emitting diodes, which LED stands for, which are placed right on the backing side and covered with a plastic u shaped tube. The light they produce is unidirectional. It's much harsher and varies depending on the angle of view. And further, mentioned, well, it's mentioned the LED as a way to keep the sign lit for a hundred years. In the June hearing, LEDs are really quite unreliable, relatively new and untested and by design meant to be replaced generally within a decade if if even that long.

I I highly doubt that a new LED light will be in use a hundred years from now anymore than a new vinyl window would be. And finally, as as staff mentioned in June, the preservation guidelines for the district note that changes are only acceptable when returning to an original condition. The National Park Service's preservation brief 25 on the treatment for historic signs is similarly clear that when possible historic materials must be replaced with historic materials. Another preservation preservation brief number 16 on the use and substitute materials of historic building exteriors states that it is difficult to recommend substitute materials if the historic materials are still available. Consideration should always be given first to using traditional materials before accepting unproven techniques, materials, or applications.

Substitute materials must meet three basic criteria before being considered. They must be compatible with the historic materials and appearance. Their physical properties must be similar to those of the historic materials, and they must meet certain basic performance expectations over an extended period of time. I'd argue that none of these are true of LEDs. It further notes that substitutes substitutes are are only potentially appropriate when the historic material or skilled craftsman are unavailable.

Neon tubes and experts are available if somewhat scarce. Right in Wisconsin, up in Antigo, there's a gentleman Dean Blazic who was recently in the Guinness Book of World Records for being certified as the longest practicing neon tube vendor in the world, who has worked on neon signs for over seventy years and trained generations of neon sign experts and is still practicing, not to mention others who are who are closer to home. So in conclusion, as staff noted, the path sign is really among the last of the once ubiquitous large neon rooftop signs in the city. It is certainly the largest one still standing, and it's a beloved symbol of the city. The fact that workers have to go up on the roof and flip a switch occasionally, it costs a little bit more money, is not caused to compromise such a historic resource.

The Brewery District is one of Milwaukee's major preservation wins, and it's about to be seen by hundreds of people from around the country at the National Trust Conference, including myself. We'll be back one week from today and urge you not to cheapen that success. LED is a cheap throwaway replacement solution. Milwaukee is not a throwaway city. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Jeremy, what do you say if at the conference two of the letters are out?

The LED takes more maintenance. It's I'm sorry. Excuse me. I got neon does take more maintenance, absolutely, in the same way that historical windows take more maintenance. I think anyone attending a preservation conference certainly understands that. I think there would be more upset to see substitute material than there would be to see something that's undergoing maintenance.

Jeremy, have there been improvements in neon signs that make them more reliable than the ones that were made one hundred years ago?

The the technology, as was mentioned, I mean, the the fact that the the sign that lights go out occasionally is I I don't I don't argue that. I don't argue that it takes maintenance, that it takes work to to keep the signs up, that they are prone to tripping. But there are experts, again, around Milwaukee and Wisconsin who are certainly much more much more expert on the the the technological issues than the nice. So all that to say, yeah, there there are, you know, neon sign. The technology has not changed dramatically in the last hundred years, which is part of what makes it makes it historic.

So that's it there. I I cannot give you a a specific this technology will solve all of the problems. There are ways to weatherproof signs to move transformers around. And, again, these two things do take do take work. They are not they are not cheap, But my argument is that it's worth doing because the end product is something that's very different.

In our experience, being the steward of the sign actually having to do this, it's gotten worse. Right? As the electrical codes have changed and they've introduced more GFCI protection in these transformers, it's gotten worse, not better. There hasn't been any technology that's helped us. It's gotten you know, making it safer, which is great, has made the viability of the sign worse in terms of reliability.

What's your cost for this replacement?

We're in the $20,000 range, roughly. I don't want to go point to point with Mr. Jeremy, I didn't say that this LED would last one hundred years. What I was trying to mention at the last meeting is neon, from my perspective, is not the future for this sign. We will have to replace the LED at some point.

Donna is telling me ten years, fifteen years, something around that timeline is probably the life expectancy, and we'll replace it with the same thing again. Being the steward of this sign, I just I can't rely on that things being lit every day. Mhmm. And it's it's heartbreaking, but that's the reality of the situation, and this is our best path forward to making that reality.

I do also want to add that when a light does go out, it's not as simple as just going to flip the breaker to turn it back on. You have to wait the whole process of it drying itself out and then it just turns itself back on. When the light goes out, it sits out. There's not much we can do, if anything.

I think for my part, I agree with Mr. Ebersole that the sign is clearly iconic. And being such, I think it's very important that it remains lit constantly. And I think having a letter out or multiple letters out or the whole sign down starts to look a little trashy. I mean, when you go and drive past stores that have their signage out or one letter of their signage out or whatever, I mean, you're just like, god, I wish they would get that fixed because it makes it just looks trashy.

So, I'm not sure if any of the commissioners have changed their opinions since hearing further testimony, I'm kind of where we were in the beginning, which is I tend to agree with the applicants in approving the LED change out. That's my 2¢. I think it's very close. I think the rounded corners, I mean, yeah, like you said, that will go away when the scale gets larger. It looks very close to me.

Right. I don't I guess what I wanna say I'm I'm just gonna say one thing because I don't want commissioners feeling uneasy about this. Okay? And I'm gonna only say one case. Okay? The Marquette Building in Chicago. Okay? On Dearborn. Of to

quarter And

of

concrete, GFRC. It's kind of like GFRC. It's not electric. It's GFRC. It's a substitute material. It was considered at length by the National Park Service and everybody else involved. Can we let this happen? It's a much lighter product, okay, than a terra cotta. We're sitting in a building, terra cotta is falling out. It's a lighter product. It's up there. It's secure. It's performing well. No, it's not the original terra And to to we're accepted? I don't know.

But just to make, you know, to ease the tension, there are new innovative materials that have been agreed upon by National Park Service to be used. And particularly, Bob, you know the building in that case. It's very high. You can hardly see it from the side the that theory,

that should have been done on the city hall here.

Or or Northwestern Mutual. Okay. You remember that cornice. We didn't decide on that because it's not on the local register. Northwestern Mutual of the original building. Okay? And that was originally a kind of granite.

I thought they did do shortcuts. They did use new material on that.

Yes. They did. That's my point. They didn't go back and do the original cut granite. Been on the but here we right. So I my intention, as I said, or just to repeat myself, is that there are circumstances of repeat when it is durability, it's innovative material, so forth.

I've not seen the market building in a long time, so I have no sense for how it appears relative to the original.

Thank you so much. You wouldn't be able to tell it's a different material.

Maybe not from 300 feet down. Right.

Well, probably close-up. So, anyway, that's just one of many examples. So my feeling is to accept the applicant's request.

We'll make a motion to take a vote.

Mr. Chair, if I may, if you are going to approve,

I

important point. Year.

Very

work work with with

lot to the

particularly even easier, even more difficult to than Pike's New Market, which I talked about two months ago. Pike's Market is easier than this one. It's on a roof. Get up there and put it together. This is particularly a difficult one.

Any further discussion on this matter? Okay. Do I hear a motion?

I'll make a motion to approve the substitute, the material, the LED material that the applicant is proposing.

Is Tim's comment about the fact that this is not a precedent because this sign happens to be inaccessible. Is that right?

Right. That's substantially inaccessible. Yeah.

Right. Cars roads, public road to be Yeah. Shut

You're saying this is a unique situation that we wouldn't ordinarily approve because it's so inaccessible that we wouldn't so we need to put that in the motion. Sure.

Yeah. So add that wording to the motion.

And you

meant adding to the motion

would the Commission also welcome a condition that the color is maintained as this as close to redneon as is possible because they do have the ability to have white or green or blue or

We're happy to share the formula, guess, for lack of a better word. It could be in the COA.

You're saying no switching it off like theme days or like if the Bucks win, we don't make the sign green. I'm

happy to provide staff the formula we came up with and that can be the formula moving forward.

So, due to inaccessibility of the sign, moving to approve the LED in the approved formula, color formula.

Right.

Okay. Do we hear a second?

I second. Okay.

In favor?

Aye. All opposed?

I'm opposed. Okay. Motion carries. And Bob, you're take over. Okay.

All right. Thank you. All

right. Moving on to item five, I assume. Okay. Item five, file two five zero six seven two, resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for retroactive approval of vinyl window to 2443 North Sherman Boulevard in the Sherman Boulevard Historic District for Lavelle and Tipton. Hello. Hi.

Okay. Let me get to there. So we've got the Fred Hertz house, which was constructed in 1920, Mediterranean Revival style. This is an earlier Google Street view. So here is a 2017 and 2025.

You can see one the windows on the front elevation has been switched out for a vinyl window. In April, the property owner received a violation for vinyl window replacements without a COA. The applicant is now requesting after the fact approval for replacement of multiple windows with vinyl one over one and slider windows. The manufacturer and model of the windows wasn't provided by the applicant, but they are fairly standard vinyl one over one windows. Here is an image of the side elevation.

You can kind of make out those rear windows in the back have been replaced with vinyl. And then we do have some photographs from the inspector from the original violation from earlier this year. So all of these locations, I believe it was seven or so windows were replaced with vinyl windows. Preservation guidelines for Sherman Boulevard state to retain existing window and door openings, retain the present configuration of panes, sashes, sills, architraves to avoid changing the size or configuration of window panes or sashes to avoid discarding original windows, doors and door hardware when they can be repaired or reused. The applicant hasn't provided any documentation that the windows were in poor shape or not able to be repaired.

Preservation guidelines also indicate to respect the stylistic period or periods a building represents that if replacement window sash becomes necessary, the replacement should duplicate the appearance and design of the original window sash or door as much as possible. The original windows, as you can see here, were sixone double hung sashes with the top sash being shorter, being smaller than the bottom sash, which was fairly typical from this stylistic period. Staff notes that the Historic Preservation Commission has never approved vinyl windows. There is no documentation, again, that these windows were in poor shape or not able to be reused or repaired. With that in mind, staff is recommending denial of the vinyl windows and recommends a replacement with solid wood sash sixone windows that match the sash heights of the historic material that was removed.

Okay. Any questions of staff?

How did the violation come to be known?

I'm not sure. The inspector found it earlier this year and alerted us. It could have been a neighbor. Sure. Some of the windows, at least the one on the front, looked like it had been replaced some years ago. So may have been a neighbor or somebody in the historic district that noticed and put in a violation. Ms. Tipton?

Hi. Hello.

What? Y'all want me

to Oh, you you own the house when you replaced the windows?

Yes.

Okay. This is a pretty open and shut case. You gotta put the windows back.

How am I supposed to do that? I don't have money to repair.

It's it's black letter. I mean, you needed a COA in the first place.

How would I have known that, though?

Because it's in your deed. It's a restriction in the house's deed.

How long have you lived there?

Since 2014.

Did you know your house was historic?

No, I did not. Which

contractor did you use to put the windows in?

Velco and Champion.

Those are big operations. They ought to know better.

Yeah. They should have known to check. Are they I wonder if they're licensed in the city of Milwaukee to pull permits and stuff like that. But in any case, they should have known. And I wonder if you go back to them and say, you didn't pull the proper permits to do this job, those are big operations. And so I would hope that maybe they can give you some relief in taking those out and putting the old ones back or using a suitable replacement. And I don't think we really approve final windows at all. No, no. Yeah.

Question. Does is building permit required for complete window replacement?

Only on a historic property.

So building inspection or rather the development center should have observed that this was a historic property where vinyl windows were requested?

That assumes someone bothered to apply because the permit requirement only applies to historic properties.

You know permits were pulled for this work?

When I called once I was told about this violation in June, I contact I'm sorry. I contact Felco, and he said in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen that they didn't need any permits pulled.

So it is a pool.

What's It's in the ordinance as basically an exception to an exception. So as a general rule, permits are not required for windows except at historic properties.

And that's been in the ordinance for many years?

At least as long as I have been here in 2016.

Okay. I think

city of Milwaukee. They should be knowledgeable about needing to apply for COAs in historic districts. I would call them and they're the ones you got a bone to pick with because they need to I think they need to make it right with you. Feltco.

That's the one they that's the one they advertise on TV extensively? Company. And they're national, I think, because I see the exact same commercial as the Chicago

one. It's actually probably a good thing that you used a big company like that so that they don't go out of business from Walk away. Right, right. Because I don't think they'll do that if they're any good. Yeah, would reach back out to Felco and say the city is saying that you can't have those windows and they've got to make it right.

Okay. Is there a motion to accept the staff recommendation?

Deny. Yeah. So moved. Second?

Second. All in favor? Aye. Okay. They should make it right because it was their responsibility to know the status of your house.

Moving on to item well, okay. These are these are the staff approved COAs. Item six starting at 2506552 and ending with item 17250074. Is there a motion to ratify the staff approved certificates of appropriateness?

So moved. Second.

All in favor? Aye. Next item is review and approve the minutes from the August 4 meeting. Is there a motion to approve the minutes? So moved. Second? Second. All in favor?

Aye.

Updates and announcements. Does Does anybody have an actual schedule of this National Trust?

It is online. It does exist. They do exist.

Yes. You're not you're not going to get a print one until you show up. Right. Oh, really?

Yeah. Okay.

That's how they do things these days.

The Google you would look at or that you try to find would be past forward 2025. It's a National Trust Restore Preservation Conference, but really to find it the most easy way is passed forward 2025.

Do have the number? Can you give her your phone number, please?

Thanks.

All right. No other bit do we have any other announcements?

I'm just going to say, I think you guys maybe passed around. I got a notification from the National Trust. I work with them every other day on the planning for this thing about a week and a half ago saying that a couple of sessions are still open, okay, and available to be signed up. If people know these conventions, those kind of tours and breakout things which sometimes cost a little money get filled up really quickly. So a couple of them are still open. They asked me to make that announcement.

This is expensive, these conference.

Yes. These conference are. I'm surprised.

This is double the National League of Cities.

Yeah. Yeah. It's expensive. But it'll be fabulous time and lots of events associated with it. Monday night before the convention proper, we have I have a reception with all my people and some people coming for the funds at the Las Gardenas restaurant in Ken Brunig's Pritzloff. It's the restaurant all the way to the south end of that. And you're all invited 06:30 tonight at night.

Were you gonna tell us this?

Telling you.

Telling you right now. It's an important announcement. So that's 06:30 to nine then.

On the fifteenth?

On the fifteenth, which is Monday night, and should be nice affair with a lot of people from around the country coming. And it'll be most of my students, and I've got more than ever now. So you're going see over 50 of my students there at that event.

What's the name of that restaurant?

It's called the Las Gardenas. It's the sort of brand new upscale Mexican restaurant and it's got a patio opening to the South, Bob, if you can imagine that, and then a patio opening up to Plankton on the East too. So there's kind of breakout space and another one of the Ken Brunig success stories. So yeah, hope to see you all there.

Anything else? Motion to adjourn?

So, move. What are you

doing about parking for that? Well,

he has a parking structure.

He's got the structure.

And there's always street parking around there.

But to walk around the whole building? Yes.

Yeah. Heaven forbid. Yes. Heaven forbid. So there's there's kinds of street parking around We have

signage so people know that.

I'll have 50 students out there standing around pointing in But the right also relative to that matter, I hope the weather is nice. Is it's rare that we have the Nationals Conference this early. It's usually October.

And I don't want to

do Milwaukee October. So it is at a good point. And I've noticed on the weather reports, this week it's cold next couple of days. 30 degrees this morning. But apparently a warm streak is coming in. So we're going to have very tropical weather next So everybody come to that if you can.

Okay. Motion to adjourn. All right. Seconds?

Okay.

All in favor? Aye. Aye. We're adjourned.