Business Improvement District Board #2 (historic Third Ward) - Regular Meeting

As a department, every year we get to these type of, you know, we tell our folks to take more breaks, extended lunches. Fortunately, we have air conditioning in a lot of our vehicles. I mean, that is the priority to make sure that no one does overheat. Extra water. Extra water we provide. We actually have electrolytes that we're doing. Our safety crews and supervisors and managers are constantly monitoring folks to, you know, when they're out there, especially all day long, I mean, that's, this is where the production's gonna go down these couple of days. They're still out there doing their job, but it is, we monitor that on a daily and hourly basis because it is dangerous right now. Right.

Reminding them not to drink soda.

That is a big one, yes. This is why we continually promote water and electrolytes, and this is why we provide some of those packets to get put into water bottles because it is very important to stay hydrated.

Okay.

I'm sure.

Yeah, a resident, I was going to send you that this morning, just posted about their recycling person who had to... We had an incident yesterday, yes, correct, that overheated.

Is he okay, though? Ended up going to the hospital, overheated based on the conditions yesterday. Is in good condition right now. I don't have an update as of this morning, but was doing much better and had a lot of IVs and fluids. cramped up and kind of was sitting there so and luckily the public did come out and assist and help it was which is good yes do we do anything um on hot days for employees that we know are out there yeah i mean like we said we provided we don't tell them to make more breaks we do start shifts earlier um so like our sanitation workers are going to start an hour earlier to get off earlier if it gets too extreme some crews will shut off and you know we'll have them work six hour days it depends on how it each crew is a little different and exactly what they're doing but that's the conversation and each group does those things a little bit different but we had a conversation just on monday of like what's coming up for the heat what is everyone doing and so we talk to each and single group of how to make sure employees are safe out there if they have to come into one of the the buildings that we have just cool down that is fine as well

Okay, thank you. Alderman Brower?

Yeah, thank you so much. And actually, Alderman Baumann, thank you so much for putting this file on here today. I really do appreciate it. I appreciate you guys being willing to give more of these updates because it's something our constituents are really concerned about. And I just want to also echo just the appreciation that I have for all the city work. I mean, right now we're sitting in air conditioning and the city workers are out there saying, Sweating away, filling potholes, picking up garbage. I just, I really appreciate all the work that they're doing. I just want to, you know, a concluding thought I had regarding this that I wanted to share is that we have such a huge task in front of us to win more funding from the state legislature when the new legislature convenes in January of 2027. We have an opportunity, I mean, pretty much, knock on wood, but, you know, you could run as a, you could... A sardine sandwich is a Democrat, and they're probably going to win this fall. And so we're poised to have a friendlier legislature in Madison, and I'm committed anyway to meeting with members of the legislature, fighting for more by explaining here in Milwaukee there's a lot of unique circumstances, that this isn't just some right-wing trope of some grossly mismanaged behemoth urban center that they're trying to portray every single city as across this country. This is... This is a city where we have a lot of dedicated workforce. We need more resource to make the quality of life better for everybody here in the city of Milwaukee. And that's how we're going to do it. So I'm fully committed to that fight and winning more funding in the budget that introduced by whoever wins the governor's mansion in the fall. And it'll be fought in next spring's budget fight at the state capitol. Thank you.

Are there any other questions from committee? All right, with that, Alderman Bauman will ask to hold to the problem with the chair. Hearing no objections, so order with that. We are done with the business today, so we are adjourned.

More of the same.

Calling to order the July 6th meeting of the Historic Preservation Commission. Ms. Roman, can you take the roll?

Patricia Kitten?

Here.

Matt DeRose?

Here.

Nicholas Hans Robinson? I know he's online. I can see him. Yeah. Sally Peltz. Sorry, is the audio not working?

Audio is working. We can hear you.

Robert Baumann.

He's on his way, I believe.

And Jordan Morales.

Present. All right, we'll call item number one, 260254, resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for demolition of a fire damaged garage at 2848 North Sherman Boulevard in the Sherman Boulevard Historic District for Andy and Carrie Sirianni.

Okay, here is the house and garage in question. Here is the current state. I think it's self-evident. I don't think I need to read the report.

yeah and apologies my audio wasn't working for a moment there um i'm here yep yep we got you nick any questions

Yeah, looks like it's seen better days. Okay, cool. So staff, you have a report with conditions, I assume? Not for a demo. Oh, not for the demo, but for the build back. Yep, yep. Okay, so motion to approve is what I'm looking for at this point. So moved. All right, second?

Second.

All in favor? All right moving on to item number two and this is the build back so two six zero two five five resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for construction of a three-car garage at two eight four eight North Sherman Boulevard in the Sherman Boulevard Historic District for Andy and Carrie Sirianni okay view of the property again should we be seeing it up on the big TV

Okay, there you are. Now we are.

Proposal is to replace the fire damaged garage. New design is 30 wide, 24 deep, 15 high, three car design facing the alley. An existing parking slab will be reduced slightly to accommodate the new wider design. features one single and one double overhead door. The side gable roof has a 512 pitch. Two windows and a service door face the house. And the service door is a six pound design. Siding is LP SmartSide and trim is proposed as AZEC. So the design is simple but functional with the required trim details. Barring the traditional details imposed by our predecessors Paul and Carlin, this actually has more trim details than the garage it's replacing now. Roof pitch is low, but similar to the pitch of the former, and roof pitch is low of the former garage's hip roof. Smart size has become the state of the industry for garages due to the expense of natural wood and the difficulty of working with fiber cement products, hardy, which is very rough on tools. The commission has started to accept the material for garages that have no street presence. AZEC could also be considered for an alley garage, but the commission has typically required trim details to be an actual wood. Staff is not sure if continuing to require wood trim for an alley garage is a necessary design standard. Materials of windows and doors were not specified at the time I finished the report, but they are composite fiberglass windows and fiberglass and steel overhead and service doors, which is typical for new construction garages. Don't have the complete details on the windows yet, but a commitment that they won't be vinyl. So staff is recommending approval with conditions. If accepting the synthetic trim, it must be painted, smooth finish on all siding, and no vinyl windows.

Okay, great. And do any commissioners have any questions? I believe we have the homeowners online as well, Carrie and Andy Sirianni.

And the contractor online as well.

And the contractor, okay.

Mr. Chairman, a quick question for the staff. Have we approved painting of vinyl plastic surfaces before? That's what you say on the recommendation.

I'm just saying, I'm saying that it comes in white and if it isn't painted, it's going to be more obvious that it is the Azac. It needs the paint coating to be more believably wood.

And it seems like it will adhere to that product like wood? Yeah. Every seven years, something? Okay.

It can be mechanically installed with nails or glue or screws.

Any other questions from commissioners?

Okay, I will then make a motion to approve with recommendations as illustrated by the staff accepting Synthetic trim smooth finish and no vinyl windows. Yep.

Okay. Okay. Do we have a second? All right all in favor? all right great motion passes uh call item three uh which i'm sure no one's interested in 260397 resolution relating to a statutory demolition review of lincoln avenue school 1817 west lincoln avenue due to fire for milwaukee public schools okay um

Generally, everyone is pretty aware of the devastating fire that we had last week. We have an unusual state law that applies only to the city of Milwaukee. The school board of a first class city may not demolish any school facility that is 50 years old or older without the approval of the City Historic Preservation Commission, regardless of any historicity attached to the school. No designation has ever been pursued for this school. It's from 1917 by Van Ryn and DeGellicke who did the majority of the schools in the teens and 20s. It was briefly home to girls pre-vocational school from 1933 to 1948. It was the south campus. The north campus was Garfield School, which is under no current threat, is on the National Register and has been converted to housing. So I went out to the day of the fire and got some photos. There is not much of an interior left. This is the Lincoln Avenue facade. You can see the roof completely collapsed through. 18th Street facade, again, roof collapse. On the alley side, falling down to the first floor. Alley side collapsed all the way to the ground. and I borrowed this aerial photo from Channel 58, which really tells the story. I did not pursue a formal report on this one as we will be having a presentation from Neighborhood Services and possibly MPS. That's it from me for the moment. I will let the property owners speak and the commissioner.

Okay.

Hi, Mary Shanning from the city attorney's office. Just to give you a little overview of the statutory requirement, there is a statute 119.16 sub 10, which does say that if MPS board makes a decision to demolish a school that is more than 50 years old, it requires the approval of the Historic Preservation Commission. The city attorney's office is of the mindset that this is not a board decision, but we thought it would be a good idea for you to have the approval on paper just to cover all the bases. It is our understanding that DNS has issued a demo order, and I believe we do have staff from DNS here to talk to that. To give you a bit more information, the school's insurance agency is working on a claim for this loss and will be doing some inspections to try and determine cause and whatever other information they need for the purpose of that claim. So that will take a little bit of time, but ultimately the billing will come down.

Thank you. Mr. Chair. Go ahead. So there's actually commercial insurance on this, not self-insured?

MPS does have a property insurance policy.

Okay.

50 years? Yeah, it was built in 19... What's the year of that addition? Not little addition, but the addition. Is that less than 50?

I believe that's less than 50, but I don't know the exact year. Yeah.

All right.

Okay, we have representatives from DNS here, I assume, to speak to this matter.

Let's see if the name tag is here.

I know it's not for this, but...

Good afternoon, I'm Gessamila Royovega, Commissioner for the Department of Neighborhood Services, Chief of Building Inspection. Accompanying today with two of my staff from the Compton Nation section, our new supervisor, Michael Olin, and we have our other Michael Demski, which is our on-site staff. So pretty much all we have to say today, it's like we definitely went through to the fire call, and when we went there, one of our processes was to just do a preliminary evaluation of the site. Our first part was just in doing the fire, doing a little bit more of the suppression for a moment. If you can see, the roof collapsed, a lot of the floors also collapsed, so there's not a lot of links on supporting these walls at this point, so that's one of the issues that we're facing right now. The second one would be hazard materials. What kind of hazard materials were inside, like such asbestos, lead, and everything that down the road, as this is starting to get into a little bit more of the dry season, then the dust is start coming out. So we also need to evaluate from that perspective how the removal of these materials are gonna be. And the third but not least, it's like starting in what it is, the condemnation of race order. Definitely based on our numbers, this is definitely more than 50% of the asset or the value of the property, one. Second, it definitely becomes a threat to the safety of the neighborhood, especially the side going to the west, which is the alley. If you think about it, this is around, what, four stories. That lateral wall collapsed. It can also take the adjacent properties. This is the one that has the less as a setback because it's just based on the alley. We have had conversations already as part of our process with the insurance company. We will continue those conversations. At this moment, it's more about critical just to decide what path for the demolition we're gonna be taking, if it's a voluntary or a supportive one. With DNS, but we are here just to help and answer any other questions that you have in regards to conditions System conditions, but I think the pictures especially when you see the aerials you can definitely see what is the interior damage at this point Any commissioners have questions for their DNS representatives I

So what happens to all of our other school buildings that are of the same age without any fire alarms and? Strengthening.

That's a great question. This is like, I think we went through this a little while ago about the non-confirm and sprinkles, especially with the residential. It's almost the same kind of applicable. It's gotta be more of an alteration three or more for the scope of work to be retrofit. In this case, definitely you will be needing to do more than that. In the meantime, we continue to do our life safety inspections. That is something that we do do for NPS. Last year, over the last two years, we decided to recreate a model in where right before school year start, all these life safety inspections needed to be performed. And we did that very successful last year. Now we're working on that as well this summer. But from the code perspective, there is not a path right now to just ask to NPS to just retrofit everything. We did a small timeline set, just to put you on the speed. In 1974, it was just started the non-sprinkle requirements. A sprinkle was required to every building higher than 60 feet tall, but that's in 1974. Before that, there was no requirements whatsoever for schools. maybe for residential, but very different ones. This is a typical use, it's educational, so right now, in 2002, when we actually adopted international building code, that's when really it started triggering the requirements for Sprinklers for Group E, which is an education. Please be mindful that also that has to do with the scale, how big is the complex. Right now in 2021, anything that is more than 20,000 square feet school and that also occupies more than 300 students are definitely required for new construction. to have that, but right now, everything that we have is existent, we can't go back unless there's a major alteration that will trigger that retrofit.

So how many buildings do we have in Milwaukee that fit that retrofit? Shall we say non-compliance?

Well.

In schools.

Well, that would be the part that we might probably want to do a little bit more of research, but my understanding, it was like a great amount of MPS schools are older than 1974. There would be some, I would say that in the 80s, and there were some requirements for building elements on a school. For example, a basement. storage room, trash chutes, those were like more the ones that were starting to be required to have those sprinkles. But right now, all we can look is at the portfolio that we have from NPS and kind of break down a little bit more those numbers if anybody else wants to try that.

We don't know exactly the number of schools that would look like this school. NPS does. NPS have that information. I see. Is there somebody from NPS here?

Yes. I see, great. They said on the news 80%.

I see, thank you.

And we have around 150 life safety inspections to do, so that's an average.

Okay, any other questions for DNS from commissioners? No, thank you for your time, appreciate it. NPS representatives are here. Okay, hi, do you guys have any additional input on this matter?

Excuse me, my name is Michael Terz. I'm the interim chief operations officer for the district and this is the principal. Introduce yourself, please.

My name is Damaris Ayala, the proud principal of Lincoln Avenue School.

As you can imagine, this is very difficult for us, but we basically need your approval so we can move forward and get this project going for the next couple of years.

Okay. Any questions for the MPS team from commissioners?

Go ahead. Any thought given to deconstruction and salvaging what appears to be a whole lot of brickwork that's essentially undamaged?

What we would be looking to do is to see whether or not it is safe to move it first, okay, because there could be a lot of asbestos around there, but yes, there is, we are in communication about recovering as much of the brickwork as we can.

Question two, do you guys have a kind of a timeline at all when you wanna complete this demolition and so on? Yeah, well, that's what I suspect, tomorrow at six in the morning.

We don't have a timeline. Again, we're waiting for the release of the property to us so we can get in there and begin to look at what we need to do. Demolition would be the first thing, and we are beginning to prepare our necessary documents for putting that out to bid and contracting for that services. So our intention is to be as fast as possible about that because it was some of the comments that were made about it's a safety issue and things like that.

Do you guys, or is there any experience with having done this before, deconstructing a school or school building in the city?

The last one we did is when we rebuilt Bradley Tech.

Okay.

Okay, that was the last time we've done it. Okay, right.

And did we save anything on Bradley Tech? No. Okay. Inspector you guys went out there. I assume went to the site And would be able to assess sort of I don't know the possibility of saving Some of the stonework. There's also some nice stonework there consider

That's entirely possible. Of course, the costs increase dramatically. If you want to hire a contractor to start piecing apart the building and taking down some of the architecturally significant portions of the building, before any deconstruction or anything can really happen, we have to test the material. Particulates because that's all there right you can see that's that's really how far did that go? And if we can get the exterior walls where they contaminated all the interior walls contaminated those are questions that need to be answered before we can really Start digging in we I mean this right?

well, and I think that the Positive and the negative I guess are the same here is that there is nothing left on the inside proper that I saw chandelier step ironwork anything like that doesn't seem to be present which would be a Hazardous thing retaining, you know retrieving any of that stuff. I mean any of the retrieval I think we would be talking about that perimeter wall But you're right, that one wall is right on the alley. Those guys' garages are 30 feet away from that wall. But it would be kind of good as we move forward what we have relative to our acceptance, because we don't have a COA approval or demolition approval here. But it would be good to work with the staff or work with me to see if some of those things can be salvaged before the whole thing... which has happened I guess in the past. We've been on this commission a long time and allowed demos hoping to save stuff and stuff was never saved. So I guess I would hope that maybe we can sort of work together and see if some of those kind of components can be salvaged.

Okay. So a question I have for Tim is, This process is where it has to go through HPC, but we were just told by a city attorney that it doesn't really need to be here.

Yes, we just wanted to cover our bases.

I see. And I'm just looking at the city attorney, and what does that mean, cover our bases?

Well, given the emergency order being in place, MPS does not really have much option as to whether or not this billing is gonna come down. The statutory requirement that HPC makes the approval is that it's contingent on the MPS board determining to demo. So that's why we say it doesn't apply. But if there is some action that the MPS board takes, either to contract for demo or do some other step that furthers this, we don't wanna have to come back in a month and say, oops, okay, now we do need your approval.

I see, I see, thank you. So with MPS, this question again has nothing to do with the HPC, but what are we gonna do with the, Bob was saying that 80% of our buildings are old.

Most of our buildings were clearly built more than 85 years ago. And some are built pre-1900. And so we have to look at this as being part of our overall facilities expenditures. We have a lot of requests and needs for things like roofs and boilers and all of this other kinds of things. And so it all becomes part of a priority that we have to look at.

This, the children in this school will go to another school?

We are in the process of moving this school to another building.

So in other words, another school is going to get built?

Well, we would, again, that would be a decision of the school board to make. I would, my own personal view would be, and I think the principal's as well, would be that we would have a replacement.

I see, I see, thank you.

Okay, any more questions for MPS? All right, is anyone else here to testify on this matter? Okay, then I will entertain a motion to approve the demolition of Lincoln Avenue School per the state statute.

So moved.

Okay, do we have a second?

Second.

All right, all in favor? Aye. Aye. All right, motion carries. Thank you. Moving on to item number four, 260057, resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for selective window replacement at 4377 North 25th Street in the Garden Homes Historic District for Martha Love.

Thank you, Joe. One moment while I get the slides ready. A few months ago, someone filed a complaint about inappropriate windows in this building. Based on the photos provided by the owner, it appears to be one window on the rear of this duplex. Per her, it was done by La Casa de Esperanza's weatherization program and she very insistently requested that they put in the correct window, but they declined to do so. She says many years ago, based on photos of the other unit, it was almost certainly over 20 years ago. Given that this happened probably over 20 years ago and other incidents like this have been forgiven when it's not on the primary facade, staff is recommending allowing this to slide.

Would you say that again, please?

Recommending the window be allowed to be retained. Okay. as it's just one on the rear twenty years ago at no fault of the homeowner.

You don't think there's any threat from the person who made the complaint if we just let it slide they're not going to pursue it?

What do you mean by that?

I don't know. You know how it can go.

I have access to see who submitted the complaint and I can't share who that is based on DNS policy, but I don't see an issue with one window on the rear.

It's also one residential window, so not like a Why do we not uphold the standard? We could mothball it even, right? I mean, we don't have to give

Put this in context of the grandfathering matter we've been talking about now for a year. I mean, it happened before she?

She did own it. She attempted to get the weatherization program not to do the correct thing. They did not comply.

Okay. So it doesn't fall under the category of it is just an inherited?

No, she's been in this house for quite some time.

In other words, the certificate of repose doesn't apply here.

Yes.

Which window is the new one?

This one on the back, I have the arrow, bottom left in the rear photo. Two windows.

Tim, so I can understand. This came to our attention because somebody called it in.

Yep.

I see. And are either one of you the owners? I am. You are? Yes. I see. And how long has it been like this? Did you... I mean, years? Years, yes. And somebody just out of the blue?

I believe it was someone from the city came out because I had a tree in my backyard that needed to be cut down. Oh. and when they were there, they probably observed. I see. That when it was there, and that's what's happened. I see, I see. Thank you. You're welcome.

Mr. Chair, this appears to have all kinds of noncompliant materials that I presume was all put on before historic designation? Yes. I mean that's vinyl siding it looks like?

At this point I would say the majority of garden homes has non-compliant siding. Many of them lost their stucco over the years before the designation.

And all these windows look to be vinyl.

To me, they do not. I only see the one without the grid at that bottom left. The rest all have the six over six grids that they're supposed to be.

Oh, yeah, they do.

So with a vote here, what would you want? Since it sounds like this has been this way for years.

I am recommending approval and just letting one window on the back go because it's been over 20 years.

But not any of the other issues that seem to be coming up?

None of the other issues. All of this is prior to designation.

And maybe the window was prior to designation?

Actually, possibly.

Right. So that's what I'm thinking.

Yeah, this is a strange complaint yeah, yeah complaining about something that happened 18 years ago.

Yeah.

Yeah at the earliest For the latest rather need to really have to know what they're looking at to make that complaint Totally. Yeah Okay, I don't know I'm not passionate either way on this one to be I

Well, listen, I'll advance that emotion What the staff has recommended is that we're gonna move this thing up Joe you're here. Did you have anything to say about this?

Well, hello everybody. I'm Joe Bova I'm the secretary of the garden homes neighborhood Association incorporated Martha is a very active member and the association as well up. We're here in support of Ms. Love, come further.

Okay. What would you like to see happen? Nothing.

Just keep it as it is.

Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.

Okay.

My motion.

All right. We have a motion to accept staff's recommendations and approve the COA for the window replacement due to the age of this replacement, which is over 20 years. With that, do we have a second?

Second.

All right. All in favor? Aye.

All opposed is me. Okay.

Okay. We've got one opposed. Okay. Thank you. All right. With that, the motion carries. Thank you.

Thank you all. I appreciate it.

All right, moving on to item number five, 260145, a resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for retroactive approval of vinyl windows at 2377 North Sherman Boulevard in the Sherman Boulevard Historic District for Laketa Hoskin.

Great, thank you. So we've got a 1913 Craftsman style house on Sherman Boulevard. The applicant in April of last year, April of 2025 received a violation order for the final window replacement without a COA. This came to the HPC in August of last year, and August HPC voted to deny the window replacement. The property owner did not file an appeal in a timely manner to appeal it to the Zoning Neighborhoods and Development Committee, so she's coming before the HPC again. Presumably HPC will deny the vinyl window replacement and she would like to appeal that decision to the ZND Oh, I see. Okay. So here's a street view from 2015 you can see the the main bank that's projecting out He's got the 9 over 1 windows and then the windows just to the right of that Had the 9 over 1 windows by 2025 those had been replaced with the 1 over 1 vinyl windows and The violation contained an additional inspection from neighborhood services that had the locations noted of the other vinyl window replacement. I believe it was about nine or 10 windows in all, eight windows, excuse me, eight windows. So staff is, per the preservation guidelines, staff is recommending denial of the vinyl windows and that they're replaced with solid wood sash nine over one windows that match the profile of the historic windows.

Okay. Chair? Yes. I'm a little confused procedurally here. You mean this came before as once before for retroactive seaway? Correct.

And I can tell you what happened.

And it was denied?

Yes. By HPC.

And there was no appeal?

Correct.

And what's the basis to do this over again? Because people keep coming back every year until what? They catch a break? I'm not sure I understand how many times one can resubmit a COA that's been denied for the same work.

I never received a letter that gave me the rights to appeal, and I informed them of that, and they had the record that it was never received by me through certified mail. I never received it. When I missed that appointment last year, my cousin had just been murdered, and the funeral was that weekend, and his brother was murdered, and that funeral was today, and I missed it to make sure that I'm here. because I know this is important, but this is the reality of what people deal with, right? So I did not get that letter, and so I did not know that a decision was made, and so I've been kind of fighting the last year to try to figure this out. I'm not even, I understand, I went with a reputable company. I asked, did they do permits? They did not do that. I did universal windows. You know, like, I did everything I thought. A window fell out. I had to get it replaced. There was nothing else to do before the winter came, or we would have been freezing. It was a priority. I called a company that I believed was going to do what they were supposed to do. You know, like... I don't know anything about windows. I don't know anything about historic preservation. I'm just a homeowner. I've been in the house 16 years. I've never had any issues until now.

Let's start from the beginning. When you bought the house 16 years ago, you knew that it wasn't a historic district.

I bought it, yep. Yes. Okay.

And you've done any other work where you've had to come before us? No. No.

Never.

It's just now the windows. Yes. And over the last 16 years, X number of windows, eight you said or seven? I did eight.

I have 28 windows. I did the eight most critical. The wood was rotting really bad. One of them was like the pressure was pushing the windows out.

But you were in a historic neighborhood with a historic home. Yeah. And did you think about calling to get some guidance? I didn't.

I thought that calling a reputable company would do that for me, right?

Like, I don't, I have no idea. We've heard the story. I mean, it's... I have no idea. It's all sort of tragic.

Have you considered calling Universal Windows for relief?

I've called them many times.

And what did they say?

I just haven't gotten a response.

Really?

Exactly. I even tried emailing them, like they don't have really a contact like their contact us at sales. And so I've called and I'm not giving up on it. It's just like, I need, I need real time. Like I'm paying for these windows. These are not windows that were cheap. You know, like I can't just replace them again.

Right. Still paying for these windows. I am. I just got them at 24. I think you need to see the attorney. Cause I, I would, one might recommend stop paying them.

And then let them take action and then you counterclaim for the cost of doing these windows car sounds good But I don't want a bill on my credit in delinquency, right?

Like I mean Horrible horrible.

Okay.

I demand my money back for this for this window Yeah Okay, it's and and

And that is where the tragedy is, is that by calling up this office, the staff would have walked you through this. And now, I mean, again, you and lots and lots of other families have come with the same, just didn't know, just didn't know, thought we were going to be doing the right thing and it's winter and et cetera, you know? So it's not intentional. You knew you were in a historic home. Is there any way, at this point that the staff can help to find you someplace when you're able to to to replace these windows properly sure we've got lists of manufacturers and contractors that have done successful projects in the city yeah and there's other windows aren't there that are needing repair they all will need replacing yeah that's what So you tell me.

It's a tough one. I would highly recommend keeping the pressure on Universal Windows. They're a big outfit and I think, I personally believe they need to eat the expense of this. They should know better. They do work in the city. Any contractor who does work in the city should know about historic preservation.

in my opinion. Anybody that advertises on TV, I will never use for any work of any kind. What did he say? Any contractors who advertise on TV, I would never use for anything. For no other reason, the cost of that advertising is incorporated into your price. So you're paying for a very expensive advertising.

That comment does not help me. And it was very rude of you to say that. I'm a consumer. Where else am I going to find people besides what I see? just because you know, you know the history, you know what to use. I don't know what to use. To tell me to use somebody on TV, not to use somebody on TV.

This staff would advise you and tell you where to find materials.

You know, we feel your pain.

Well, I guess I'll watch.

Clearly he doesn't. That's not true.

No, because he lives in a historic neighborhood. But that comment to me.

I've gone through all this.

You have, but I haven't. I haven't. I haven't. I have a disabled husband. I've been through chemo treatment in the last four years. I have a lot going on. This is not like something that's a small deal to me. It is a big deal to me. This is my house that I live in, that I chose to make a home for my family for 16 years. I'm trying.

I'd like to maybe ask a question of the staff now. What's the best step forward here? And I will suggest that somehow accepting it is not gonna, fix for instance if we deny it which we should because it violates the guidelines you can then move forward addressing and contacting the window company saying i am denied these are unacceptable if we don't then all you can do is go to the window company and say could you please put in these other ones and i think as we started didn't you say you were looking for a path of appeal yes right okay so we have to deny there's no appealing if we accept what she has right so I guess all this said, it seems that the best path now is to deny it. That's going to give her only kind of legal positioning on this matter.

So I'm going to keep getting fined, keep getting, you know, like.

The appeals board, what, every three weeks, once a month, or what? Every three weeks. It's the council.

So you're on a three-week or four-week timetable.

Right, other than August break coming up. And we've done this in the past where you can freeze the fines, right, until the appeal. In other words, so she's getting a fine for a month.

Yeah, I believe if it's going through the process, they wouldn't, I mean, I can't speak for DNS, but I don't know that they would issue reinspections if it's going through.

Are there any orders issued in there?

There was in April of last year. So that's what brought it to our attention.

But Andrew, so did you come here last year? I did. Okay. Because the last year my cousin was murdered. So you did not come.

I missed the appointment. And so they denied it while I was. And then the appeal that you never got. I never received it. Okay.

Fair enough. I never received anything.

until I got the letter basically saying that I was in violation and, and old because it was denied. Like I got that from DNS. And I'm like, what do you mean a denial? Then I, I reached out, I asked about an appeal process and they were like, you missed your opportunity to appeal. And I'm like, how didn't receive anything. And so they, they sent, I don't know who they is like, you know, DNS or the historic preservation, but they sent me a email with a tracking of the thing, and it clearly said that I didn't receive it, and then I didn't get anything back when I said, well, this clearly says that I didn't receive it. Why didn't I get a chance to appeal? And then the person didn't reply again.

So if there's a denial here, And then it goes through a letter, an appeal process. A letter will be sent to her.

Correct.

An appeal letter. And when does the fine stop? That's what I want to know. When does that, how do we prevent that from building up while she's attempting to try to rectify this? Like how do I get more time? Yeah. Andrew, maybe you could.

Yeah, I mean, we could be in touch. I can reach out to the inspector on this file, and I'm not sure if it's on monthly re-inspection right now or where the process is and that, but I'd be happy to follow up with them and let them know where she's at in the process.

And to try to stop the fines. I mean, it sounds as if, if given enough time, that you would work on this.

I would.

It's not that I don't want to work on it.

Like I said, I'm dealing with a company who's hard to reach. You know, like, I don't mind. I understand what they're saying, that it's not approved, but I need means to be able to correct it. I need time. Like, I'm still paying for these windows. I can't just, it was 12 grand for eight windows. I don't have just 12 grand to throw away. Not even throwing it away, but to just...

Redo again. So my colleagues over here. What would you you suggest for?

For somebody who is really sounds like she's attempting to try to Make this right Without it costing but it took a whole year to get here and so what's been going on for that whole year? You know, I didn't we had a meeting scheduled last year to hear this and you didn't show up and Understand, but why didn't you then follow up and find out what happened at the meeting? You know, and it's a whole year. That's a long time. It's not a month It's not six months. It's a whole year. So we have no choice right now Then two year was here when I got the okay, but we have no choice We really don't I mean that's the law and that's what we have to do. We have to follow it. I'm sorry. I

There's options for other people have put in vinyl windows and then obviously.

We have them. They're on my block.

And then have had their, you know, with the intention of replacing them with the proper windows but have been in a mothball status, right, to prevent ongoing fines. And that mothball status can last a year, two years.

Right.

We review every six months.

We had a church on mothball for seven years before they rolled off. Okay.

So what about using that strategy? And again, Patty, I'm hearing what you're saying in terms of everyone else, there's total intent here to treat everybody the same in terms of the regulations that we are forced to abide by. I'm sorry, go ahead.

I don't think she wants to replace these windows with the correct window. She wants to leave things as is. That's the whole point.

I did not say that. That isn't what I said. I said or I need more time.

Okay. Well, time we can give you. Yes. We can do that.

I need time. I understand that you want them out. I am fine with that.

This is a mothball case.

But the time, I can't just do that and keep getting fines and keep getting, you know what I mean?

Okay. And can we retroactively mothball to alleviate fines that have been levied?

We've converted applications to mothballs all the time. Retroactive is usually the issue with them anyway.

So how much time do you think you need? Because what Patty said is correct in terms of what you've explained and what the rules and the regulations are, et cetera. How much time do you need?

Excuse me. This is Nick. I'm just wondering, because that would be a very ambiguous question for you to answer because there's a lot of X factors.

Yeah.

does it make sense for us to give her enough time in order to go at the window company and try to receive some sort of a resolution on their side and then that way if you know if she can't resolve that let's say within a year we give her more time as long as she's actively pursuing that round mothballs in six months increments right six months is typically the motion for during her mothball for six months she comes back in six months and we'll see where things stand excellent right okay excellent

And that would stay any of the fees.

Your universal windows? Yeah. Something needs to occur there.

Yeah, I agree. I put pressure on them. Okay, so we have a motion for mothballing this matter. And we have a second. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Okay. All right. Motion carries. We've got a mothball. There we go. all right moving on to item six uh two six zero two five two resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for a front porch reconstruction and expansion and landscaping improvements at three zero six seven north lake drive in the north lake drive historic district for gilbert southwell great thank you um so it's a it's a george schley and son's house uh 1929 mediterranean revival

You can see it's got the stairs and walkway up to the house are existing. The porch is back to the right of the front door, but it does have mature landscaping in front of it, so it's not really visible that well in the street view image. But the proposal today is a fairly extensive landscaping project with a porch component as well. So these are existing conditions on the front porch. It's separating from the house. It's got foundation issues. There's a large number of cracking and mortar failures. So the applicant would like to reconstruct the porch in natural stone. reuse the concrete balusters if feasible or replace those in kind and also enlarge it by about 30 square feet. So he would be bumping it out approximately three feet and then the porch is 10 feet in depth or 10 feet in length. So you can see the expanded porch that they're proposing on the left. Other front yard landscaping improvements include removing the concrete walkways and replacing with natural stone, rebuilding the front pillars in natural stone, And then, so that's the front yard proposals. This would be the porch reconstructed, more or less in the exact same design, just an enlarged version. And again, reusing the stone spindles if possible. So this is a version of the expanded front porch. There would be a landscape bed again in front of the reconstructed front porch. So it would be not very noticeable that it would be enlarged from just a regular passerby from the right of way. Some images from the rear is showing the concrete patio is settling and cracking in a number of areas. There's an existing wood pergola. There are some stone seat walls that I didn't include here, but those would be rebuilt. I'll show you the plans for the rear include four by eight wood pergola, which wouldn't it's essentially I believe in the exact same location that it presently is not visible from the right of way. It would be removing the concrete and replacing with natural stone for the patio, a natural stone clad electric fireplace installation, and then taking down the existing border walls and rebuilding those in a natural stone seat wall. um staff doesn't have any issues with the landscaping or the enlarged porch we've we've done porch enlargements in north point and in the north lake drive historic districts in the past so staff's recommending approval with conditions and the condition is just our standard masonry condition okay

Great, and we have a representative from the homeowner here?

Yes. Hello, I'm Gil Southwell, I'm the homeowner. And I provided the overall landscaping plan, the elevation, and then the special, Detail on the enlargement of the front porch. I just retired so I've got two grandchildren I'm spending more light time at home. So we do use the front porch quite a lot in the summer We have obviously the pleasure of looking at Lake Park But when we have friends over it's a little too small and in the backyard our garage kind of is right next to the patio area, and we wanted to get some arborvitae. I currently have pots there, but we'd like to put a permanent planter in there to do some screening, make sure the kids stay in the backyard and don't run all over. All right.

Yes, sir?

Go ahead.

Who's doing the work for you?

Oscar Munoz Construction and Landscaping. Yeah, Oscar's done some stuff on the east side, yeah.

Okay, any other questions from commissioners?

Don't move.

All right, do we have a second? Second. All right, all in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Aye. All right, great, motion carries, thank you. Thank you. uh item number seven two six zero two six four resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for demolition of a garage at two three eight six north terrace avenue in the north point historic district uh for aaron dakosky all right

Here we go.

The garage is...

Thank you, Andrew. This garage is clearly not as in bad of condition as the last one, but it is not in a great state of repair, nor is it of any architectural consequence. It's presently entirely behind the house. You have to be on the property or a neighboring property to be able to see it. It's an L-shaped driveway as you can kind of gather from that left photo. It's completely tucked behind the house Couldn't find a date of construction for it, but it's certainly several decades younger than the 1905 house Your house is the one with the gravestone Yes in the garage belongs to your house yet.

It looks like it's about two inches away from the red brick house

Yes.

Locking their window, in fact. Oh, that's actually a garage, a red brick garage. Oh, okay. Yes, it's not actually the house. It's one of two garages. We're up against the backside of Wall Avenue here, so that neighbor has two of these garages. Okay. Fair condition, architecturally underwhelming, and gets it out of the neighbor's hair. Staff is recommending demo approval.

Okay, and the next item is the build back, so do we have any comments from commissioners on the demo? All right.

Can you make those photos larger by any chance? That's not possible.

Some of the photos are in the e-book here.

Look on your pile here. If you can't.

Yeah, I'm just curious. What's that strange arrangement between your porch railing and the roof of the porch? It looks like a giant cat tree.

Yeah, that's gone now. Okay. What was that?

I'm more curious than anything else.

I don't know. I think it was a cat tree. It was a cat tree. All right.

Okay, I got it. Thank you.

Okay. Anything else on the demo?

Thank you. Thanks, Tim.

I tried. All right. Do I have a motion on the demo? Move. Second. All in favor? Aye. any opposed no okay we'll move on then to the build back this is item eight 260265 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for construction of a sunken garage at 2386 north terrace avenue in the north point north historic district for aaron dakosky all right so uh

This new garage will be placed in the midst of the existing driveway. It is proposed as 14 feet deep, 11 feet wide, with a height above grade of three foot 10. Here I put in as the first image the rendering showing it ramping down, ramping down to the garage. So I thought I'd open with this part. Our guidelines only strictly prohibit tucking your garage under the house from the front. This is using the existing driveway. And ramps down into a typical flat roof structured garage. The idea is unique, but not untenable. The design is largely adequate, but just needs a little stone, some trim detailing on the street facade. Here is the ground plan of the underground level. The ramp starts at about slightly to the rear of the front of the porch, goes underground, and then once underground, connects back inside the house. It's about two feet off the house. Here's an other rendering showing different directions. Staff does believe there are some zoning problems here with setbacks and lot coverage. If HPC wants to comment on that, they can. Generally, the Board of Zoning Appeals takes granting of a COA as your implicit endorsement of a zoning appeal.

Even if we... Are these renderings in the file?

Yes.

Okay.

What's the structure of the first floor? What's that going to be?

They are going to do their best to...

The roof of the garage, what's that going to be? It'll be grass, like a green roof. But what's the structure?

Oh, they have indicated they're going to do their best to match the stone of the house. So it will be a natural stone garage.

But three feet above grade? Yes.

the exposed entryway will be a stone structure with a flat roof the everything underground will have spancrete with sod grass above it okay you're going to place the planks on it yes okay and then when all the water goes down from the driveway into the garage are you Collecting it on a on a train outside of the garage door We have two different trough trains one just before you enter the garage at the bottom of that ramp and then we're ramping a little bit steeper once we're in the garage safer to get a little steeper pitch and At the bottom of that pitch we will have another drain and of course a some crock inside of that you're the contractor architect and contractor.

Yes Can you tell me your name, please

jim pittson okay thank you um yeah and and then you guys were suggesting maybe some zoning issues they have to deal with side yard setbacks and so forth uh at least on the lot coverage it's certainly a wash with the existing garage it's not going to increase any right they were probably already over at baseline right but

And then the side yard, they might be infringing on that, but they'd have to get the neighbor to say okay.

There wouldn't be, it wouldn't be crossing the property line or it's just a setback issue because the side setbacks are very weird in this, in the RS5. Very, very strange spot.

The garage actually currently is, is like up against the garage that is meant for a wall avenue yeah it looks like it it's it's less it's less than a foot off of a wall avenue garage yes yeah and that's where it's going to go again no

It's being moved. So it'll be, I think, five feet away from that garage.

But in that same vicinity. Because it's, I mean, I was sort of wondering. So that it is, it curves around. Underground, yes.

Underground it curves around. You will not see it in the backyard anymore. So we're eliminating the L-shaped drive.

I see.

and the structure and creating just an entry garage, the 10 by 14, to get into the underground garage. So the only exposure will be on the side of the house to enter into the underground portion.

And then visually, it will look exactly as it does now with the driveway, except it will just be grass. That will be the only visual difference from the outside.

And it'll be enough for what, more than two cars?

Basically two cars. The issue was with the angles getting a second car in straight was it possible? So it has to come into the angle This is a big project yes, it's very unique Do you have a backyard have grass it's all concrete but you have a nice front yard, yeah Yeah

I don't know about that, but they are doing precast planks. You said precast planks?

Yes, so everything underground will have precast planks for the roof structure with grass over the top of it. I did also meet with the city planner for review on this, and there are a couple issues with the setbacks where, because it's underground, it takes on different restrictions. Also, the fact that we don't attach it above ground takes on a different restriction as well, too, because now it's an accessory building. So it's a little unique. Even though we are attached underground to the house, it's not attached above ground.

So underground, you're going to have it where you can walk into your house.

Into the basement, yeah.

Through the basement.

Yeah.

This is a single family, isn't it? Uh-huh. Very interesting.

Okay, any commissioners have any other questions?

I do have a few more things here. Oh, okay, go ahead. One second. So staff's supportive of the idea but does think the front of the garage needs a little more detailing. Had the intern draft some things up because she draws better than either Andrew or I. These are just concepts like some raised molding around the door, maybe a pent roof over the entrance, but it needs something to define the top of the structure. I'm happy to work with them on whatever, whether they adopt one of these or something entirely different.

Can I have exhibit B? This is something entirely different. And the reason I did this is it takes on the characteristics of the existing house. I end up putting a solid header over the top of the door to match all the windows. And then above, at the top of the wall, I'm matching the wall caps that they already have existing on the porch for the stone detail. So I'm kind of going off of precedence of the home with the cap and the stone header over the overhead door. I do like the detail that you created. It's just there's no precedence on the home right now.

Looks like they've got one It seems very similar to the house right by you Patty that just sold there's a similar sink and garage On your block there's a similar sink and garage and it's very nicely done with similar details to match the house So in the winter in terms of going up and down the little hill now

That was the part of the uniqueness of it. We used the existing grade to our advantage where the driveway right now does pitch up quite a bit and we are creating a little bit more of a casual off the sidewalk and then we don't have to go as steep or as deep. And then it's also give and take of how deep do we want to go into the ground so you don't see the garage. We wanted to have some exposure. So it looks like a carriage style, a carriage house, instead of something that's just barely protruding out of the ground. So it was a little give and take with the pitch, safety, and aesthetics.

But that grassy area will give you

back area is that what you're saying yeah yeah because right now the backyard is just fully concrete and then the garage that isn't really much of a garage so this would give essentially a backyard with grass your neighbors everybody's happy I don't know why the people I've spoken with haven't indicated any objections but it's very interesting all right

Do you have anything left on this presentation?

No, just work with them on trim. I think what he presented is a fine option too. Perfect.

Okay, any other questions? No. Do I have a motion?

So moved.

All right. And a second?

Second.

All right, all in favor? Aye. All right, that carries. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Moving on to item nine. Item nine, 260273 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for an accessory building at 210 West Brown Street in the Brewers Hill Historic District for Kyle Stevens.

Great, so the subject property is a circa 1888 Queen Anne cottage shown here. Here's an aerial image of the subject property which is on the left abutting the alley and then the survey that they provided of existing conditions. So they do have a garage that is off the alley. There was previously a 1920s garage located back there that HPC allowed to be demoed in 2017. So now there's just an existing concrete slab where that former garage is located. And you can see, make note, north of the property it's just, the backyard is fenced here and it's just a gravel parking lot so there are no neighbors immediately to the north. This is an image of the existing conditions of the backyard, so there's the garage facing the alley and a wood pergola, and then the concrete slab is closer to the photographer in this image. so they're proposing adding a 20 foot 4 inch by 19 foot detached accessory building that would be used as a golf simulator and also have a dry bar component on the inside and then there would be a concrete patio and located in front of the overhead door of the proposed accessory building The building would be clad in wood clabbered to match the residents with wood trim, dimensional shingles to match those on the primary residence. The window and personnel door and overhead door materials and and final designs weren't specified at the time that staff report was completed but staff if HPC allows would would like to work with the applicant on finalizing those details as long as they're you know no vinyl just go with a steel or fiberglass overhead door and clad wood or or fiberglass windows so it would be one overhead door and then the three fixed windows on either of the side facades. Staff has no real concerns with the accessory building. There are conditions, mostly our standard conditions, just referring to materials and working with staff. And then typical for new garages that we also include adding a water table and a freeze board. to the accessory building as well, just for some minor architectural details to spruce it up a little bit. But otherwise, staff recommends approval with conditions.

Okay. So the existing garage stays, I assume. It does. Okay. So this looks like a mini garage, basically. Yeah.

A little accessory building, shed-type building.

This would technically be just heated and HVAC and electrical. So it's almost habitable.

Almost. No water, though.

No plumbing. Okay.

So let me ask you, does this have to do with these accessory buildings, the new legislation?

No, I don't think so.

That's why I asked about the plumbing. If it had been plumbing, yes.

Oh.

Oh, oh, oh, so this is not considered An accessory building in terms of the new legislation accessory accessory dwelling unit is what the I see and it makes it not Dwelling because because there's no plumbing great Probably is that right? That's correct

I would think you would have to put it in a toilet to call it an accessory dwelling.

And you have to have independent sewer. Yeah, so there's a lot that goes into it.

I applaud you. I thought that this was, you were going to be the new experiment for this new piece of legislation. But you are, this is for a golf simulator? Is that what you said? Mm-hmm.

Primarily yeah, I mean just also additional recreation space. I mean we don't have any big areas in the house. It's a 1897 home I think so even just for entertaining outside you can open that door up and you have a patio out front.

So Very nice All right, this is America So Any other comments? All right. Do we have a motion on this one?

Yes.

All right. So moved. All right. Do we have a second?

A second.

All right. All in favor? Aye. Aye. All right. Thank you.

Thank you. The American Dream looks different for everybody. Some of you want a white picket fence, some want a golf simulator.

All right. Item 10, 260161, resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for the infill of one door at 2665 North Lake Drive in the North Point North Historic District for Anna Timms and Craig Rigby.

And the applicants indicated they wouldn't be able to make this meeting, so they're requesting it. That's right.

I see that. So proposing to hold to the call of the chair. Do we have a motion on that? So move. All right. Second? Second. All right. All in favor? Aye. All right. That's held over. Now we've got the following files for staff approved certificate of appropriateness, items 11 through 27. Do we have a motion to approve these?

So moved. Second?

Second. All right, all in favor? Aye. All right, moving on to the review and approval of the minutes from the last meeting. Everyone's had a chance to review those. Do we have a motion to approve last meeting's minutes? So moved. All right, second?

Second.

All in favor? Aye. All right. Item 29, item 260137, resolution amending the bylaws of the Historic Preservation Commission relating to rear landscaping.

All right. We had this policy in writing for almost exactly one year before accidentally deleting it. There was an overhaul of the bylaws that just wiped everything out and this got thrown out accidentally. This is, it's no real change. We've been mostly acting as if it's still there because it was not deleted intentionally, but we're putting it back exactly exact same language. Landscaping fixtures changes to existing landscape of rear yards as defined in the code of ordinances. This is the key part of the very specific language of rear yard. you basically don't have a rear yard unless you're a mid-block lot. the way the zoning defines it. So that's why we defined it that way. If you're on a corner lot, HPC still gets to look at absolutely everything because you do see it. The backyard of a mid block lot, do we really care that much? No one sees it. That's the idea here. We're still gonna review major structures like garages and that, but we don't need to be reviewing planting beds in the backyards of mid block lots.

Okay. All right. Any questions on this matter? All right. Do we have a motion to amend our bylaws as per this rear landscaping recommendation here?

Move.

All right. Do we have a second? All in favor? Aye. All right, moving on to item 30, updates and announcements.

Okay, I gave you all a handout at the beginning of the meeting. A reminder again, we have formal dates for the Wisconsin Local History and Historic Preservation Conference, October 14th to 16th in downtown Milwaukee. They actually followed my suggestion and there will be extensive discussions in-depth tours of Central Library amongst other things. It's one of the jewels of the city that we really should bring a preservation conference to, especially when we're hosting it three blocks from them. Otherwise, yeah, you should all attend. It's usually very cost effective and obviously no lodging expenses for any of you.

What's the cost?

We don't have that yet It's like 175 dollars for the two-day Thursday 125 Unless we're students Yeah, I'm going to enroll in UWM.

Alderman, this is a perfect use of your tuition reimbursement. Oh, really? Yeah. I'm going to register at UWM. Since there's no travel expense with it, it's straight up covered. You just have to basically send DER the name badge they give you when you actually show up to prove you attended.

And the rest of us?

You're unfortunately on your own. There is a discount if you are a Wisconsin Historical Society member.

And are we hosting any kind of event? We are not. To welcome people to Milwaukee? Don't you think we should?

It's a little late now. Yeah, it probably is, but not, well... We can follow up with you tomorrow if you want to pursue adding something to their agenda.

We've got a 5.30 to 7 o'clock event on Thursday at the Pabst Mansion. Okay. Happy hour. And then the thing ends at 2.30 p.m. on Friday, so there is no Friday evening. So the Thursday evening would be what you're talking about. That would be the opportunity. No, they have no Wednesday. They have an arrival thing at 5 to 6 social hour in America's Black Holocaust Museum Well, that's historic Why are we doing it there

Well, because it's next to Schuster's. Walk a block over to Schuster's. They do have a...

Thrive On.

Thrive On, yeah. Thrive On. They have that kind of public first floor lobby.

Yeah, that's a very nice place. You're talking about Thrive On. That's what we should be showing off. Yeah, a block away from Holocaust. Yeah, yeah, it would be great.

That would be nice.

And the Greater Milwaukee Committee would love it. I mean, you're right. It's a beautiful lobby area at Thrive On.

Yeah. Anything else on updates and announcements?

No, just this.

I don't know if this is the proper point, but I know in the past we recommended an ordinance change that basically changed the value of roofs before they were, like if it accounted for a certain percentage of the home's value, right? And the Common Council eventually had to pass that, correct?

No, we did it as a by-law.

We did that as a by-law.

Just like this yards thing so it can bypass the council.

Is there any... mechanism that we can use as a commission you know we saw um i forget the homeowner's name but come in and she had a contractor that installed something that was not in accordance is there anything we could do as far as recommending to the common council or you know to get to give some sort of exposure to contractors who put things in place on historic properties that without going through the proper uh I mean, are contractors at risk now if they don't pull a building permit and do work? And so shouldn't they be at risk if they do work on a historic preservation or a historic property without pulling a historic preservation COA? Understanding that the homeowner is ultimately responsible, but I just feel if a contractor is selling a job at a homeowner's doorstep, they should assume that risk.

Yeah, was there a COA procured on that Sherman Boulevard project? No. Couldn't have been. So the contract, but did they get a building permit for those three windows?

Well, my understanding is permits are only required on historic properties. Yeah, window permits are only required on historic properties. Right.

So they should have gotten one, but they didn't get a permit.

Well, that's their exposure.

Yeah. But there are certain like a roof replacement, for example. Normally in the city, you don't need a permit to get a roof replacement. But if it's historic, then you don't necessarily need a permit, but you need a COA, which is different from a building permit. You don't go on to the citizen access to go get a COA. You only get it through staff, right? Through submitting the form online.

The only thing I'm aware of right now is it would be on the homeowner to make a license complaint.

Right. And but would there even be a grounds for a license complaint with the contract? Is it incumbent on the contractor now per city ordinance to research if there's a historic, you know, if the facility is a historic facility or the building's a historic building?

Well, it's just like this woman that came in here. Right. Universal.

Yeah.

What is it called?

Universal windows. Yeah.

Shame on them.

Right. Agree. In my opinion.

And you're asking.

Can we make a suggestion to the Common Council to adopt an ordinance that would give contractors who do work on a historic property exposure, if they do not procure the COA, then they have to mitigate.

So let me ask this question.

So as an architect and a general contractor, right? If you were to, somebody says, Hey, I want to renovate a house and you go and do the work without a permit. What is the penalty? What's the liability and who's liable at that point?

I think they have the authority to charge you four times the permit fees.

Exactly. So this is me going, someone's, you see what I'm saying? Like there is some professional liability there by not acting in accordance to the rules and regulations of the city. And that does hurt you as a professional. And a lot of times I'm actually my structural engineer is part of the lawsuit where they're even trying to, you know,

you cut out there nick but i think not only do you have to pay four times the uh permit fee you have to rip open walls if they didn't inspect do the in wall inspection the above ceiling inspection you're going to have to rip open walls i've run into this as a general contractor myself you have to rip open walls the inspector's got to come in and inspect it you've got to bring anything up to code that's not up to code i mean it's not just you pay the penalty fee, you also have to, an inspector has to put eyes on it unless you've taken in wall photos or something like that, that the inspector will accept. So in my opinion, and I think we all probably share this opinion as we see plenty of people come in with contractors that didn't do their due diligence. I would just like to put this before the Common Council as the commission, saying we see these poor people come in all the time and they've been abused by these contractors who, some of these are big outfits too now, and that make plenty of money going door to door selling windows to people. And... I just think there should be some liability or some professional liability or exposure, just as if they went forward and put in a new bathroom in an attic and didn't pull permits.

And, Bob, what do you think about that? Because I think we've heard so many stories.

It's worth exploring. No question about it.

And it's usually around more vulnerable people. I would love to be able to see something like that, that the onus falls on, a piece of it falls on the contractors. Is that possible?

We can explore that. Possible, yeah, it's possible. Through the DNS fine structure, that would have to be the... and it would be increasing the penalty for not pulling permits where historic COAs are required as well.

Maybe 10 times the permit fee.

Yeah.

It's not without precedent. There is a state statute that fines for sandblasting of historic buildings that fines both the owner and the contractor.

State statute?

Yes. No kidding. It's only for abrasive blasting of historic buildings. That's the only situation where I'm aware you can fine both, but it has been done as a statute.

Well, I would sure love to get that pulled because that is a beginning.

Because it's the windows that are the common problem. Yes, absolutely.

Yes, and it could just be an additional piece to Where are the fault lies?

Siding too, right? You don't typically need a permit for siding. You don't typically need a permit for roofing.

Bigger job though, the siding.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, well, since this is kind of my, uh, those windows are probably slipped in then two days.

Right. Oh yeah, absolutely.

We did actually, several years before you joined us, Jordan, we did mothball someone while they sued the seller for failure to disclose historic status.

Do you know if there's ever been a resolve in terms of a case like that where the contractor really is liable and then pays up or...

That would be a question for DNS. Not without a highly sophisticated owner.

Yeah, and I think right now if they do it, they just... Hire lawyers and...

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah, if they do it now, they're doing it just to save face.

So if we're saying is... It often happens where there are families that are more vulnerable. And they also probably don't have the extra monies or time to start devoting to lawyering.

Right, yeah.

100% right. And so it's like, then what's the point of it? Right. You know what I mean?

Yeah, if you spent $12,000 getting burned on windows.

To put that onus back on these bad people.

Yeah. Well, I just want to put it on everybody's radar. Maybe I can work with staff to put together some language on what to send to the Common Council or maybe, you know, Alderman Baumann, I can correspond with you too on something that might work. But yeah, it's something I've seen come and go from this for my short time here on this commission. I'm like, how are these contractors like that? Not held to account on this. This poor lady spent $12,000.

And she and dozens others that we have heard.

She spent $12,000 on those eight windows. And she still has more windows. Yeah, I totally get it. You can't, you know.

She was sort of saying this is not my core business. I'm trying to take care of my family. I don't know about this one. Yeah.

and the people of Sherman Boulevard or grant Boulevard, or, you know, any of these other historic districts cannot be thrown away 12 grand. So, um, yeah, so something I want to work on, uh, okay, good. Good. So, all right. Um, with that being said, do we have a motion to adjourn today's meeting? So moved. All right. Second. Second. All right. All in favor? Aye. All right.