Business Improvement District Board #2 (historic Third Ward) - Regular Meeting

So, I believe we do, yes. So, yes, can you please take the role, Ms. Roman?

Anne Peeper?

She will be coming virtually.

She might be coming soon then. I hope we keep an eye on it. And Sally Pelts? Here right now. Nicholas Hans Robinson.

Hi, and that's Hans, but you can just say Nicholas Robinson.

You.

Present.

Patricia Keaton.

And she said she was on her way.

Okay. So they might be coming soon. Matt Jaros.

Here.

Robert Baumann? Here. Jordan Morales? Here. We have four members. We have corn.

Right. Okay. Then we'll call item

Hey. We got miss kitten now.

Excellent. Alright. We'll call item 240748, resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for mothball status at 266 East Erie Street, the Catherine Foley Tavern for Catherine Foley Tavern Restoration LLC.

And then share the full screen.

Okay. I'm not sure if anyone here is from MPA. Carl's here. So would you mind coming up to give an update?

Afternoon. Karl Bonneman, Board Member of NPA. And of course, as the owners of the Catherine Foley Tavern, just a couple of updates regarding moth ball status. There was recently graffiti but as of yesterday it had been remediated and we do have staff going over there past it once a week to confirm that it's still okay and there's no additional graffiti. Building is secure, stable, airtight based on all of the work that we had done.

And there have been numerous walk throughs since the April storm. So obviously that was a concern for everybody but there have been a lot of walk throughs on it. Have not noticed any issues. And then we are working with UWM on a board up intervention design to hopefully kind of help us to have even less graffiti to have to deal with. So I don't know if there's any other questions, but those are the updates I have today to continue the mothball status.

Okay. Any questions from the commissioners?

What's the time period? Six months. Months. On what we do? Yeah.

Okay.

Any updates on fundraising?

Well, we're still we actually have our event this week, the brick by brick over Brown Deer Country Club. And we also had been working with a consultant regarding fundraising to kind of get us up to speed on that. Obviously, this organization has never done anything to that level. So learned a lot and helping us kind of

get to the next steps.

Okay. Good. So lots of progress.

Yep. Continued progress. Definitely.

Good. I'll move to approve.

All right. Do we have a second? Second. All in favor?

Aye. Aye.

All right. Motion carries. Item 252,001, Resolution Relating to a Certificate of Appropriateness for a mural on the south wall of 918 North Velar Phillips Avenue in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel Historic Districtcomplex for Seeds of Health.

Great. Thank you. So this was a holdover from last month's HPC to allow the applicants an opportunity to put up a test panel which they did on the backside, on the alley side of their building. And I do have some photographs. We all went over the mural standards last month and the proposed design.

This is the mural cloth that they are proposing, putting the mural on. And they did do a small, as I mentioned, test patch. Labels on the bottom, the first coat of primer applied and then a second coat of primer. They documented the entire process, including videos. So they did get us ample evidence of what they were doing.

This is with the three little test strips installed. And then the second photo shows the strips with the varnish installed over them. They left it out for about a week or so and then removed the panels. So you can see there is an after removal photograph. The one on the right, I did go out to after they were removed.

There was, you know, maybe less than a dime size section that I could tell, you know, the paint and primer did penetrate into the brick. So there was a little bit of brick exposed. But the mural panel more or less was able to be pulled off pretty easily even after the fact when I was there a couple of days after that. You know, if you have additional questions, I'm sure the applicants would be happy to discuss. They also submitted memos from Holton Brothers, masonry contractors, and from State Painting Company.

They're painting contractors. And both of those contractors indicated that the application and removal of the test panels didn't damage the brick surface. So that was provided from their two contractors. So with that in mind, staff recommended approval with the same conditions that were discussed last month that they make an effort to find an adhesive that's breathable if at all possible though the method that they used, they did have their contractors indicate that that would be a method that wouldn't damage the masonry.

Is the school own this building?

They do, I believe. Okay.

So the purchase from Josh Jeffers?

Yes.

Good.

Question is do we still have the same concerns though regarding the I think we were talking about like artist rights over the over the mural when it comes to removal like yes. Okay. So go ahead. I'm sure you can speak to that.

Yes, hi. My name is Tia Richardson. Thanks for having this and being open to hear. And yes, so I indicated to Seeds of Health that I'm willing to give up my artist rights that would pertain to, like, them not being able to remove it in the future. Perspective, you know, when they reached out to me to do this mural, I felt like it was a huge opportunity to be able to work with the students of both schools and to be able to, you know, give them a chance to participate hands on in a physical way.

And that's why I opted for the PolyTab so they could get their hands in it and just have that huge collaboration with all the partners that they work with. So we don't get they don't get that opportunity often and it helps their self esteem come up. And not only that, but the adults that were involved and the families, like when they go past that and see that, the fact that, you know, they had a part in that, it changes how they feel. And I think that, you know, when this, you know, having that on the wall, like I've seen the impact of people just looking at the images, how it impacts people. So this would be a very powerful symbol to be downtown.

And so when people come by and look at it, they're going to feel that sense of connection to it. And that's different from, like, if I were to go and paint it on the wall myself. So I'm willing to, you know, for that effort and especially, you know, the effort that we've put into it, totally willing to give give up, you know, my rights to it because everything has a life and I think, you know, we're in an era where it's about group collective expression and not one individual artist or the strength the strength of one individual anymore. And I think we need more of that in our community. So that would be my response.

Okay.

So can I ask you? Yeah. Questions. So what you're saying is that you're going to take the fabric and the kids and you are going to paint on it while it's on the ground and then you're going to stick it up. Is that what your plan is?

So I've actually brought so PolyTab is actually interfacing. Is there anyone familiar with sewing or quilting? Sure. So this is interfacing. I I went and picked up some from Michael's, and I wanted to pass it so you could feel that. So that gets primed on both sides. This is what it's like when it's primed, and this is the test strips that they used on the wall. And then we actually did have some painting, so I brought an example of what it's like with the painting on it. And then the idea would be this this gets adhered to the wall. You can pass that to them.

That gets that gets adhered to the wall after after I've gone and made some touch ups and worked with some students. And it'll look professional when it's done. So that would be our goal over the next several weeks and then put it up.

And so the adhesive goes on the blank side. And that's what you used for this. Yeah,

that's what

This is exactly the same thing.

Yes. Okay.

And where else, Tia, have you done murals?

All over the city. So literally over 70 total in the region. Wow. And in Milwaukee alone, 50 to 60, we're talking 94. So in the 3rd Ward, the Brighton The Passage.

So, you know, that one is also sealed with a breathable varnish, and there was concern there too with the breathability with it being interstate. So also on 47th And Center, so the Sherman Park Rising Mural, that's on Cream City brick, and there was a big concern when we first did that. There was actually roof damage. So water water was getting in behind the brick and pushing the paint out. So I've been using the NOVA Gel to actually restore that mural over the last few summers, and it's held up very nicely.

So when we talk about things like breathability, those are things that I take into account so that the mural can last and have experience with working on brick and done a lot of brick murals. 14th And Forest Home on the back of El Ray, which is also in a historic neighborhood. I don't know if you guys are familiar with that mural that was done with Milwaukee Christian Center and over hundreds of community members were involved in that one. So if you go on my website, like there's so much on there. This is my life's work and passion.

And having people get their hands in it is a signature of my work, but it's more than that. It's just something that I feel our community needs to raise its self esteem, number one, which we know has a big impact. We're talking economic impact, lots of impact when we have our young people feeling good about themselves, when the community feels good about itself. And I have seen the impact and success of that through my other projects in the city.

So NovaGel, is that what you call the adhesion?

That's what I've used in the past.

Okay.

Yeah. Okay. And that's what you're planning to use here?

I'm open to a different product. I looked into one. I spoke with a tech that is supposed to be even more breathable. I talked with a tech today, and he described what makes it breathable. And so he described how technically all acrylic paints are breathable.

And like what makes them breathable is as they're drying the water evaporates and creates little wormholes in the film. So the water has to have a way to escape and in that process if you think of like pearls on a stream, as the water is evaporating those pearls are creating little wormholes that, as the film is drying, create pathways for the air to move through, and it's permanent. So there's another product that made by Golden that was recommended to me by the supplier of PolyTab that I use. And there's a big organization out in Philly called Mural Arts Philadelphia that's known throughout the nation for their community murals on PolyTab. And they actually worked with the paint manufacturer to develop this product for that reason and so that it wouldn't yellow.

Is that Sherwin Williams or It's called Golden. They're a professional brand name, top of the line paint company used by artists. And they manufacture the varnish I would use and this other gel adhesive.

Well, you're enlightening us, I think. Thank you. You're welcome.

Have one other.

One. Sorry. No. Keep going.

Okay. So I don't know if this is an appropriate time, I was happy to hear when I spoke to them because I was asking about permeability rating. And if we want to get into the technical, the gel that I'm looking at, it's very comparable to Sherwin Williams house paint. So technically the number is 37 that they're giving me, which is like very high permeability, I think that's what he was saying. It's got the same number rating as Tyvek. Or maybe I'm ahead of myself. Maybe I'm jumping ahead of you. Kind of getting into that. But essentially, it's very permeable. It's more permeable than latex house paint.

Okay. So I just had one thought. I know a lot of times when we're obviously trying to interface modern things with, you know, surfaces and historic context and things like that. There's a few things that, you know, may take precedent over other things. I think on this one, I'm very much in support of, you know, figuring out how we can keep the mission of what you're talking about intact as far as allowing the young people to really create something and then to see it installed. So two things. Actually, my very first job was artworks for Milwaukee.

Mhmm.

And I was commissioned to paint trash receptacles for the farmers market on 20th And Mitchell. Was about four students who made $5.15 an hour after school. And it was such a transformational experience. Like, literally it was kinda funny because was just showing my son some of those sketches of fruit and birds and stuff like that last night in my portfolio because he wanted to create his comics. Was just showing him some of the things I had done, and I had to go back to that very first instance on being a sophomore at Bradley Tech.

We're learning about architecture and stuff, but it was being able to really create something that you could see within the environment and have a real constraint. So I think that's very, very important for all of us to consider as we, you know, go into this as far as figuring out how we can make it work because I would say the value add here is definitely having that mission carry through to where I mean, it's more than just confidence. I mean, I built my entire company as an architect off of the concept between taking an idea and bringing it to life. And I think that's the beauty of any process, we've worked with everyone from third graders all the way up through to adults because ultimately that is something that teaches us how to, you know, interface with our environment, you know, actualize ourselves, you know, self actualization is one of the highest forms of being, right? So I think this is really important.

And, you know, any efforts and we appreciate the efforts that you've obviously gone through in order to kind of figure this out on a technological level. So definitely in full support of kind of your mission.

Thank you. Thank you.

What method did you use to remove the panels?

We used a Goo Gone product, so citrus based. It comes it applies very much like wallpaper and it removes very much like wallpaper. So you apply that first layer and let it sit and you can pull the first layer off and then you apply it again and you can get to that bottom layer right after that.

So you didn't have to use any pressure washing or anything like that?

Not at all.

Nice.

No. We did use water on but sponge and no pressure washing it.

Mason letter says as long as the facade is properly prepped like power washing and cracks filled ahead of time, are you having cracks filled ahead of time?

So the building was tuck pointed and primed and painted in 'twenty two. Perfect. So most likely they will get up there and prime it again. Okay. Yeah. It is already prepared and tuck pointed and filled.

Okay. Any other questions?

Yes, Mr. Chair, if I could, are there any examples where in the Milwaukee area where you took this off of a building?

Well, currently, you did you had one mural and you said it question. Good

longevity. And so that's this product was developed a so that mural artists could, one, have a way to paint off-site, like in bad weather, and then apply it. But two, it actually helps the mural be stronger and lasts more because you don't have a lot of the chipping. It avoids a lot of the stuff that happens with directly painting on the wall. It actually helps because it's a little bit stretchable.

So if it were going to go on like a concrete retaining wall where the wall is kind of separating or there's some cracks or drips, It actually is reinforcing. So if you can imagine this kind of the way I think of it, because it's so thin, it's almost like a reinforcement material in between the paint layers. So it's not designed where, like, when mural artists are putting murals up, they're not thinking about, can I take it off? It can be taken off, but it doesn't go up with that intent because we street art is is different. I was speaking for myself.

Looking at the time and investment that we put into it, I want the work to last, and it's gonna be something to remind the community over time as a testament, kind of like a monument, but it's more of a lasting symbol. To my knowledge, I don't know of any mural that I don't know of any mural with, like, significant community weight like that that has been removed for for that reason, only, you know, not for technical reason. But I just don't go in, you know, like, I don't go in thinking when can this be taken off. But again, I believe everything has a life. And I think the life is in the effort we put into it.

And that's going to stand no matter what happens. And we've already had a lot of we've already had our community painting days. So we've had over 600 folks help to paint this. We've had our in student engagement and that's been documented, not foreseeing that this would happen, but I have that video or intend to show people the value of this. And so if you support this, you'll be supporting that effort.

And I think the life is in the effort of that work coming together even stronger than what up going on the wall. But that wall, that image on the wall is going to reinforce the effort, but this is what gives that life.

Who owns that wall?

We do.

The high school.

Seeds of Health Inc.

What happens if the high school moves out in five years because someone came in and they've got a tremendous offer and they're going to make a lot of money and they're going to convert it into condos? Who's responsible then for that? And if they don't want that up there, for instance, they have a new more interesting mural they want to put up or they just don't want a mural at all and they're putting some balconies on that wall or whatever. What happens in cases like that? That's not that unusual. We've had that in the third ward with AI, you remember that logo of AI, underneath where Karen Bell is on the Dye Building. And they moved out, they were gone, and that was up there advertising that school,

Yeah, I can. So, the question to

you is taking us beyond just kind of this initial excitement about the thing. What happens in three or five Who or seven owns that and who has the say and then if it does start to deteriorate, you know, and repair is needed or patching or something like that, is the new owner going to be responsible for patching it? We don't want something up there falling apart.

I'm Jody Weber. I'm the CEO of Seeds of Health. For those of you not familiar with Seeds of Health, we've been running schools for just about forty years. That's our mission. That's who we are. We purchased several buildings in the city. Own Veritas High School on 30th in Oklahoma. We own Seeds Health Elementary on 32nd And Greenfield. We purchased this building. I can tell you we're going to answer on the other end Mr. Durels but I can tell you the strong intent. Our intent is not to sell that building. We've invested millions of dollars into it. It's there to serve its purpose to educate students in the city of Milwaukee. That's our passion.

We're not interested in selling it off for condos. That's not what our nonprofit is about. I understand your question and it's a good question. I'll speak to the heart and say that we've established some amazing programs. We serve 1,500 students. That's the MATC three plus one school. It's there on purpose. We've looked six years to purchase that building. Alderman Bob Baumann is familiar with us and who we are. So we're big fans of the city of Milwaukee.

I met Tia and I believe in this project. Met. I'm all about kids and endeavors of kids. I'm not answering your question. I'm gonna ask them too, but I can tell you what we put into that building is exciting and it's beautiful and we have no intent to sell it. But I I might need Bob. I I I can't answer that question about

The ownership.

Yeah.

Question. I I mean, I think that's that is a valid question.

Maybe I should No.

He's asking about oh, Tia question of

the ownership. And then you need to identify yourself for the record.

Oh, Bob.

So Sorry. Bob Morris, Epstein U. N. Architects. We've been Seeds of Health's architect through the renovation projects, and we're here just for technical expertise.

So maybe I can answer. Technically, the client is the owner of the mural, so they can do whatever they want with it. And if they decide to sell, they can from my perspective, it's easier to just paint over this. I don't have a problem with that. And if we want to talk about removal later and building in a way for that to be removed before they sell or just a contingency that if they sell and the new owner wants to paint over that, that's fine.

I think in other cases where I've done murals, it's not mine anymore once I'm done. It's like I'm working for the client. It's theirs. They have the right to do whatever they want with it when I'm done. So if that needs to be in writing, I'm, like, happy to provide that and, like, work with them on a way for if, like, a contingency if they were to sell or whatever. You know, I think that's fully addressable.

A question for the council, just ourselves. What is it that we regulate and what are we trying to accomplish I at this

think it's not a matter of whether it's a right or wrong or who has authority on this, but our buildings deteriorate. Third ward here and so forth. Stuff needs to be repaired. Stuff needs to be kept up. And in some cases, it's clear by the other cases, they just sort of let sandstone deteriorate at parapets and this kind of thing.

So there is kind of a little sense of a bit of an obligation about what is the future of this thing, even if it, for instance, you don't sell it, it deteriorates, half of it is kind of coming off, it's looking dingy, it's not like is what happens at that point, I guess, is my question. I think it's an unanswerable question, quite frankly, but I bring it up just because we're dealing with this in the city and in the 3rd Ward more and more now with murals on side of buildings and so forth. Not necessarily a bad thing. I just think we kind of have to be careful as we move forward, not to even protect protect ourselves, you know, as commissioner or the review board in the 3rd Ward, but just to be good stewards and be thoughtful. And in some ways, legal minded, you're a lawyer, Bob. Mean

And that

I would think just one last thing. I would think that this agreement too then would become part of a purchase agreement. If that would happen, if condo guy comes along and buys it from you, then that would have to be somehow an agreement of rights or responsibility to repair, change, take down, leave, paint over, whatever. So I think that that's probably where that happened. I just want to, for the record, call that out. We have it in the minutes.

And that's good. And I'm I'm sorry, smirking because we survived the Baird Center being built. We survived the new music venue and the noise for the pilots. I'm like we're not going anywhere. I mean I do want to say I respect your opinion for those of you who might know about our buildings and we have a strong reputation in the community for taking excellent care of our properties.

In fact, enhancing our properties and neighborhoods where our students are. The way that we value our city were committed if it was fading or deteriorating I had to think of the words we would take care of that we want our buildings it's important that we have strong beautiful buildings for the community.

Right. And the adhesive, those kinds of things aren't compromising the mortar and the stone and the brick and the sills and all the rest

of Yeah, the stuff I understand. That.

And also, just by the way, so I get on the record, go signs are okay. Actually like them in the 3rd Ward and we have that app now that you can see, put your phone up to, you can see the thing and what the company was. I don't know that there's real self responsibility, one's got to keep painting these things every five deterioration. Okay. I'm just a little bit worried. This is a new product. And that's why I asked, is there any building where this is taken off? It's a slightly different product than what we know as being paintings from, you know, 1910 in the 3rd Ward. I just want be careful as we move forward. Don't think there's any responsibility to paint it every five years.

Don't think that's the deal. Another just sense of this is a new product on a masonry You said the perm rate, you said 37 on the perm rate. That's pretty good perm rate.

It's excellent. And actually they're saying it's like similar to what they use on to protect brick, the clear acrylic. This product was developed to be more in line with drying clear like that. You know, the clear acrylic stuff they put on brick. It's long lasting. I mean, it's designed to be permanent, literally.

Is permanent. Architect tells you the higher the perm rate the better because it's and you don't want to not let a wall breathe. Okay. So you need to have that.

The perm rating was actually 37 metric perms which translates to if I did the calc right, 56 U. S. Perms, for comparison Tyvek building wrap is approximately the same perm rating, which is used for its breathability, right? Okay.

How far ago was the building maintenance as far as I know the tuck point and it said and the brick repair happened in '20 you said '22? Yes. So when was the previous was time from that? When was the maintenance last or when was anything done like that

That's prior a really good question that I don't have an answer purchased the building from what I know it had been unoccupied for what I've heard fifteen years. It was in a very poor state and now it isn't.

That particular facade where the mural will be now was actually covered by a later addition of a it's a metal screen wall that covered that originally before the restoration occurred so that all those windows and that entire facade were covered by a screw. It had been previously painted and then covered by that screen wall. So the screen wall is now down. The painting, the painted brick facade was restored and repainted at that time. But the history of that is a little obscure because of the the sort of layers of other stuff that were on that wall, I guess you could say. Okay.

But the thought is essentially functioned as a rain screen then. Correct?

I don't know. Was more of a decorative screening, I guess, than anything.

What I was gonna say, did water get to the brick when it was when the metal was over it?

There is a pot I think most of it would have been blocked, I don't think it was 100% waterproof. Between

the screen and the wall, there was room to get down there and scale and yeah. Yeah. But I'm

just asking. Sorry. What were you saying? No harm.

Did prior to Seeds of Health owning it and their records are really hard to find because they do a lot of things on their own. Actually finding out when they previously painted it or repaired it or anything would, you know, be very difficult to even get all, you know, fine.

No. I got you. And the only reason I was asking was kind of more so to Matt's question as far as, okay, what if this needs to be, you know, touched again. Right? Well, if it's it could be inferred that as much time as which it deteriorated in the past is what maybe, you know, maybe that's how much time we have moving forward. Right? So this is me going if that's fifteen, twenty plus years, then I would argue that I don't know, that's not something that we necessarily need to worry about within, you know, the near future because it shouldn't need, you know, any additional maintenance based off of previous history.

And, of course, there were attachments of that metal panel to that wall, so there were Right. Holes as

that compromised the integrity board

at one point, so I assume they came back with proper mortars and so forth and then painted over, because when I look at it, it's all you can't kind of tell. Right. Do you guys remember at all when the metal panel was taken off? Yes. And that it's whatever. It seemed Yes.

Cold. That's D U N did has done the whole project.

It was And filled that all in.

That project was actually reviewed by our remote temp Jacqueline, but I was lightly involved. But yes, Epstein Ewen supervised the whole thing. It's fine.

Sure. I've got a couple more questions. Is this I know, ma'am, you said like a bunch of students would be involved in the paint. Is this the this is the design that we're going to get, right? That's it? Okay. Okay.

Yeah, I would call that a cartoon. Yeah. Meaning, like if you've seen my other murals, they look much more detailed and better than what the sketches I provide are.

So it's actually going to be more detailed than this?

Like if you look at the faces in there and just some of the outlining, it's very cartoony. Even the colors aren't the colors are more what I would call garish the way they came out, way the phone takes the photos. They're more contrasty and not what I would want the final mural to look like. So that's for proof of concept only. Yes, essentially, yes, that's the design.

And Mr. Chair, we really aren't supposed to get into the details of the artwork.

Really? Okay. That's

one area we're supposed to avoid. Sure.

Okay. Yes, that was just out of curiosity. But and then secondly, I guess this is more a question for staff, but what is precedent with murals on historic buildings for this commission?

Very, very limited so far. I think everything we have approved so far has been on hard panels. If this had been on hard panels, we probably would not have brought it to you. But because this is all able time to

been able do And that.

And we'll do

question. And to next the commission. It was the Mitchell Street Library on their sidewall and kind of the pedestrian pass. We didn't feel there was they agreed to do it on panels. It's city property. We just thought it was

fine. I

think this is approvable. So I move to approve.

Okay.

Second that.

Second. Second from that.

All right. Then we have a motion and a second. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Right.

I've got it.

Thank you very much. You'll be excited when you see it. You can come to our grand opening. When are you doing it? Summer? Summer and then it will like the grand October.

We have to

get school open. So October. Yeah.

Can come in the summer and paint?

Yeah. Yeah. They're working.

It's well, painting kind of happened, but the it'll be installed. The plan is to put it

up Yeah. In

Yeah. We're like yeah. Okay. Thank you very much.

Right.

We're really excited. Thank you so much.

All right. Thank you

All right. Moving on item 252152, resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for addition of a hood over a side door at 1060 East Juneau Avenue in the 1st Ward Triangle Historic District for GMC MCR Miller House LLC. What? I just called the next item. The last item.

Okay. So this is another one.

You're not

sharing the right thing. Hold tab back to GoToMeeting. Share. Now you have to make sure which one. Sharing just

the full screen from PowerPoint.

And then make GERTC meeting go away.

This is sort of a holdover from last month. Part two, I guess, of this project last month on the George Miller house, George P. Miller house, you HPC approved removal of the 1960s non historic garage addition a new door where there was a door opening. So they're proposing a door hood which takes elements of the existing house, Queen Anne and Romanesque elements, namely the brackets and the pediment. They'll have a copper face, copper roof, wood brackets that mirror the window.

So they're proposing this the new door hood to protect the entrance of the new entrance where the garage is, where it will be removed. Staff thinks they did a great job matching, taking elements of the existing building, has no issues with it. Staff recommends approval as presented.

Okay. All right. We have someone here representing the applicant.

Yeah. Am Gina Midnack, President of the company that owns the property. So I'm not sure if you had any questions.

Can ask you some question? Who does own the property?

So there's a trust that's a family trust with the Chester's and the Reed's. Okay. So Ross Reed, George Chester.

And then you said there's a company that the trust

Well, it's an LLC. It's a so the GMC Miller House LLC owns 50% and then the MCR Miller House owns 50%. So the GMC part is the Chester's and the MCR part is the Reed's.

Okay. And what's going on there presently? Mean, it looks great. I have no complaints. It's a beautiful place. It's a magnificent building. I'm just wondering what exactly is going on there because it looks

the with There's paintings. From I believe there's like swords from, you know, there's pictures of just really historic items. It's it's beautiful.

Yeah. Was told it was basically left. Yeah. When when the last resident relative died, it's like frozen in time.

It is.

With linens and tablecloths and flatware and.

The ballroom. Yes. Yep. Yes. Very interesting.

Is it ever used?

So, the Milwaukee Junior League.

Yeah, I went there there for a while.

Yeah, they've been in there for a while. So that's their headquarters.

Still to this day?

To this day, yep. They're still in there, yep. They have their meetings there. We have meetings in there for them.

And a caretaker who lives in the attic?

In the attic.

3,000 square feet.

I've never seen that, but yes, he's way up on the top. Yep. So yes, I probably can definitely Mary Reed gives an amazing tour with all the history. She's a big historian. She loves the building. So maybe I can

You can arrange that through Tim. Or Andrew. Okay. That'd be great.

Yeah. We can definitely I'll leave my email with you guys.

Thank you.

We definitely can give you

a chance. May I ask you, you represent the LLC? I do. And this is what, a law firm or a real estate? What it how?

It's just we just formed an LLC because it used to be owned by four siblings, and then they passed away and it went to their kids. And two of the family members, there was four of them, sold out to the existing owners. And so they owned it, and it was just easier to own in two different LLCs.

And you are paid to represent the building?

And I do I I I'm president of their family office. So I I see. Do everything. Oh, I see. I do trust taxes. Estate planning, real estate. That explains it. Yeah. Uh-huh. Very good.

Thank

you. What's the long term plan there? Is it

to just keep things in suspended animation forever? Or I'm just curious what the if there is a plan.

Boy, I hope I don't get in trouble for this, but we actually just formed a five zero one c three. They're donating it along with a bunch of cash to make it forever.

Okay.

Yeah. It's going be a charity. We're going to open it up for the junior league indefinitely and they're just gonna keep the property resort restored as somewhat of a museum. But now the cat's out of the bag and Ross is probably gonna kill me. And I'm probably being recorded.

You are.

You

are. But I think that's why we're doing this because we wanted to get the garage off, get it back to its original house and then get the overhang on.

And I think Michael Hatch

was your attorney for the trust. Correct?

He was. Yeah.

Yeah. For

many years. Amazing.

Yeah. George Chester worked at Foley and Lardner.

He did. Yes.

Professional career. I I I remember him. Yes.

Yep. And they've fully helped us get the 501C3 organized and we're just in the process of getting some valuation so we can donate it and then it will be forever.

And the family were the owners of Chapman store. Is that correct?

They were.

Yep. Mhmm.

And that's on the Miller side?

That is yep. Yep. Chester Chester.

That's the Chester side? Yeah. Okay.

Yep. I and so I'm so glad that I asked you the question because it it mean this is really a role model for Oh, yes. You'll donate it to the city?

Well, It's going it's just letting it go into for profit. Into a not for profit. Yep. That it will be restored. The historic will be restored. Yep.

It should really just change. It'll be open at some point. Maybe. But I but although maybe you're just still in the process.

We're still in the process. It's so new. That's why I you're gonna put me on the spot.

No, no. However you develop this, it sounds terrific.

Yeah, we've been working on the whole corner. We restored the Lion House, the blood good, the Holly. Yeah.

Sorry to the microphone.

And the microwave. Yeah, we did that. So we did the Lion House, the blood good, Holly, the Shoals Building. We just we just purchased with the other owners of we called the pelts in the Chester House, but it's 1119 And 1115 Nap Street. Yes. We just repainted all of those. So I am trying to make that corner amazing.

We had an applicant in here on one of those that did a botched up job. Oh

my god.

He was going to turn into a coffee shop with no parking, You no

bought him out

or I did. Oh.

And they recently reinstalled the windows with the stained glass panels

on the top. Put her on our award list. Yeah.

No kidding. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, this is a rarity.

Because that's a magnificent corner. That block is incredibly intact.

When we're in the process, we kind of inherited the on the 11/15, we inherited the tenants. So, as they're moving out, we had one move out. So, we restored the studio. So we're trying to make the properties nice again. And ironically, and I'm probably getting myself in trouble again, ironically, Ross and George's grandparents used to live in the 1115 Knapp Street. That was the house that their grandparents grew up in. So we were really glad we had the paint restored. It was falling apart. The brick was falling or the stone and the bricks were falling apart.

Yeah. Those two on Napa are human scale. I mean, those are

normal sized houses. You could

actually live in those. Yeah. The rest of them not so much but the ones that the two on Napa definitely normal human scale houses.

I think once you get this all done next year, cream of the cream city award. Yeah, exactly Patty. You you talk to these guys. Yep.

Okay. Have to get you. I'm gonna leave my email and my phone number.

Charles is your you acquired the Shoals property too, sewing machine guy that?

We did. Yes. One right next to the 10 Yep. And we was in

What was that?

Two years, I think. We it was in horrible shape. We gutted that. We remodeled it.

So after they were complaining about the Nick restaurant blowing smoke out the out their vent.

Oh, no.

That's So

and we just we just settled with okay. So here to make us even better people were paying for their entire vent. We're paying to put it up so that because what was happening is our tenants were getting grease in their windows and the whole apartment smelled like grease. They didn't have a vent at all. The grease was just like falling out of the wall. But they didn't want to pay for it, so we're going to pay for it. So everybody's happy. Unbelievable. So I'm so grateful. Right.

So make sure leave your name and

number. Okay.

It's good to know what what's going on behind So the thanks for telling us.

But this will be more than interesting. Yes.

Yeah. If you get in trouble, you just tell them to come to talk to us.

Yeah. It's called good trouble.

Okay, that's good.

All right. We've got a motion for approval. Do we have a second? Okay. All in favor? Aye. All right. Motion carries. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you.

Right. And I didn't know I drove by.

Can make sure.

Go to County Clare.

We've been using Corey Didier. He's total home. He's been he restored all of them. He's a huge historian too. So, he has like, he's taken pieces of wood off and refinished them, restored them. He's done an amazing job. You guys should come get, you know, just look at what we've done.

I'm looking forward to that invitation.

Yeah. I'm giving you guys my name, phone number and We'll make that happen.

All you. All right.

Fantastic. Thank so much.

Absolutely. All right. We'll call items items 4 through 7 together as staff approved certificates of appropriateness. Do we have a motion to approve?

So moved.

All right. Second?

Second.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Motion carries. Next we go to the

Hold on one more I see there the COA for a doorknob camera. I mean is subject to

They applied for the COA which we'd rather have people do than not apply for items like that. So we issued the COA.

There are no ring cameras. The door knock ring cameras.

I knew that actually. I asked about that Yes.

You already asked about it.

I have asked about it in the past.

Had they said it was a doorbell camera, we might not have encouraged them to apply, but it was just they just vaguely said security cameras in general. We do approve security camera installations?

Yes. They do.

They can get pretty ugly if you're not careful. Yeah.

Okay. Okay.

All right. Next, we will review and approval of the minutes from the last meeting on 04/13/2026, assuming we've all had a chance to review those. Move to approve. All right. Second? Second. All in favor?

All

Item 252,211, resolution relating to the certified local government review of the National Register of Historic Places nomination for the Mitchell Park Horticultural Conservatory, the Domes, at 524 South Layton Boulevard in the 8th Aldermanic District.

Okay. We're going to do something a little unusual here today. Our intern has done this presentation and prerecorded it. She has a class during this time. So here we go.

I have a quick question, if you could dilute my ignorance. Project was on the list of endangered buildings in the country at one time. Yep. Why And that was wasn't that by the park service? And why does it No, no, was national.

National. That was an African trust.

National. Oh, different group. Got it. Now I know. Thank you. Just curious.

Why is this coming after the minutes, though?

Because it's We new review

certified local governments towards the end after the minutes.

Oh, thought, okay, oh. Technical difficulties. Yeah.

Oh, okay. Gotcha.

Reboot.

Little technic annoying technicality here.

Oh, John? Yeah. No. He

was a younger man and so was I.

And here we go. Alright. Let's hear it.

Hi. This is Dilrupa Shubra, a graduate intern from HPC. The project project I'm presenting today is the Mitchell Park Domes, historically known as the Mitchell Park Horticulture Conservatory, located at 524 South Leyden Boulevard, Milwaukee. This presentation is in support of its nomination to the National Register of Historic Places. HPC supports the claim that the Mitchell Park Domes are significant at the state level under Criteria C in the areas of architecture and engineering as a unique architectural form.

In addition to its state level significance in the area of architecture and engineering, the rooms are also significant at the national level under criteria C in the area of engineering as the work of master engineer Charles Whitney. The Mitchell Park Dome is located at the Northwest Corner of Mitchell Park, a 60 acre park on Milwaukee's near South Side. Mitchell Park is one of the five original public parks established in nineteen eighteen nineties by the Milwaukee Board of Park Commissioners. Although the domes are visually tied to the park, it is a distinct and separate entity from the park itself and currently co managed by Milwaukee County Parks and Milwaukee Domes Alliance. The period of significance is from 1964 to 1967 when the dome's facilities were erected.

The project is significant in the areas of architecture and engineering, designed by architect Donald Cribb and engineered by Charles Whitney. The dome falls under the modern movement, specifically mid century modern architectural style. There are a total of two contributing resources and two non contributing resources within the National Register boundary. The domes facility itself erected in 1959 to 1967 is considered contributing. This facility includes a show dome marked with A, tropical dome B, desert dome C, and a transition house.

The other contributing resource is the reflecting pool walls found in the entrance plaza that surround the domes. Among the two non contributing additions, one is the Education Center addition built in 2000 and the Greenhouse Primary and the greenhouse addition built in 2013 to 2014 connected to the primary building marked in the blue. And the other one is the Flex House Greenhouse marked in yellow, rated in 2013 to 2014 along with the Greenhouse addition. But it's a separate freestanding structure on-site. The both resources are constructed outside of the period of significance and is therefore considered non contributing.

The doves were originally commissioned in 1954 to replace an earlier conservatory on the site, which dated back to 1898. Formal planning for the new horticulture conservatory began in 1957. Out of 30 submitted proposals, the Park Commission shortlisted three firms. Ischweiler and Ischweiler, Schutte Philips and Mokorn Incorporation, and Donald Cribb. Architect Donald Cribb ultimately owned the commission and went on to design not just a building, but an entirely new architectural form, working in close collaboration with engineer Charles Whitney.

Charles Smith Whitney played a key role in the project's structural innovation, contributing to the analysis reinforced concrete design of the conoidal domes. In 1965, Donald Grebe was awarded a patent for the dome construction design, underscoring its original and limiting its replication elsewhere. In 1951, architect, innovator, philosopher, and engineer Buckminster Fuller filed a patent application for his geodesic dome, a concept that had become the primary focus of his career since his first experiments with it in 1947. Architect Donald Gribb was inspired by the geodesic dome. However, Gribb also worried that the relatively flat apex of geodesic domes would not properly drain snow causing structural and light problems.

Practical concerns mixed with Grebe's strong independent trick led him to develop the conoidal or cone shaped dome. As a result, it achieved the height of 87 feet at the apex, 17 feet higher than a geodesic dome of comparable circumference. The Mitchell Park domes represent a significant method of construction that resulted in an architectural and engineering icon. Fully integrated dome construction system incorporates drainage, structure, glazing, stiffening and access for repairs and maintenance. Grebe's colloidal domes borrowed Fuller's geometric system but utilized varying shapes to elongate the domes as they extended upward.

The top of each dome is capped with an independently structured dome that Gribb called the apex. Grigg retained the form of Amman and Whitney as consulting engineers collaborating with engineer Charles Whitney on the development of the structural frame. For the web like structural framework for domes, reinforced concrete was selected as the material. Whitney was best known for ultimate strength design and plastic theory for reinforced concrete design. The Milwaukee Domes was a capstone project of Whitney's career, clearly demonstrating his ability to understand and mathematically represent the structural behavior of new and complex architectural forms.

This slide shows a few photos of the project, interior photographs. And here are the images from inside the dome where we can see the structural frame. The style of the domes is heavily influenced by the structural system of the domes themselves and therefore difficult to classify. In the Wisconsin Cultural Resource Management Plan, this variety of style of architecture is classified under contemporary. This large term includes brutalism, new formalism, new expressionism, late modernism, and postmodernism.

According to Wisconsin Cultural Resource Management Plan, buildings that are universally distinctive or even with eccentric designs, as well as those designed by notable architects, are worthy of documentation. This being said, the design of the domes was influenced by mid-twentieth century trends in architecture and engineering, especially new formalism and new expressionism. New formalism is present at the domes, especially in the entrance pavilion where the classical arcade made with precast concrete arches invites the guests. The design of the entrance plaza and reflecting pools also evokes a classical entrance sequence. The elongated conoidal arch, which is nearly a catenary curve in profile, and the innovative use of reinforced concrete also evoke neo expressionist ideals.

Here are some of the projects that can be compared with metropark domes. First, the The Climatron is a greenhouse at the Missouri Botanical Garden in St. Louis enclosed in a geodesic dome based on the principles of Buckminster Fuller. The structure is a half sphere dome, 137 feet in diameter and 68 feet high. The design and designed with aluminum tube and rods.

St. Louis architects Murphy and McKee are the designers and they own the 1961 Reynolds Award, an award for architectural excellence. The second project is the conservatory of the Greater Des Moines Des Moines Botanical Garden, Iowa, is also a geodesic dome that is 80 feet tall and 150 feet wide. The conservatory was designed by architects associated, later known as Smith Voorhees Jason Architects, with Ray Hewel Hewholt sorry, Ray Hewholt as project architect. The Blodal Conservatory in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada is another dome designed by architect McKinley Underwood, inspired by Buckminster Fuller's iconic Expo sixty seven dome in Montreal.

This also utilizes varying frame shapes for its triadetic dome. The result, however, is a dome that is wider and flatter in contrast to the taller conoidal dome. The fourth one is Buckminster Fuller's own significant glass clad dome. The US pavilion for Expo sixty seven for the World Fair in Montreal is also composed of double layered of structural supports connected by a latticework of struts and post dates Mitchell Park Domes. The Black River wastewater treatment plant in Baltimore can also be compared because of its shape.

It has a more similar egg shape but is not glazed nor used as a conservatory. So Mitchell Domes remains as the only Conodont Domes project used as a conservatory. In conclusion, the Mitchell Park Domes represent a rare and innovative construction system that unites structure and function into a singular architectural and engineering achievement. Designed by architect Donald Creep, they are the only conservatory domes of their kind and can be considered significant at the level state level under criteria c. In addition, their association with master engineer Charles Whitney, whose contributions to reinforced concrete and structural analysis are nationally recognized, further establishes their significance at the national level under criteria C in the area of engineering.

Thank you for listening to me patiently. I hope you enjoy the rest of the afternoon.

Very nice.

All right. Do commissioners have any questions that are to be directed to Tim? Is that correct?

Yes. Yes.

Tim, the one in St. Louis that's made from aluminum and glass instead of concrete and steel and glass, is that having the same kind of structural problems that we have? Do you know?

The nomination didn't get into that level of detail. It was just the way these work. You have to compare and contrast with representative buildings and say why yours is more significant. I didn't get into any problems they might be having. I'm just curious. I suspect without the concrete they aren't having as many problems, but they also the dome

There's no audio by the way.

Pardon, Nick? No audio.

There's no audio. Oh.

Yep.

Did that fix it? Okay.

Nick, did you hear the presentation?

Yes. As soon as the presentation cut off though, there was no audio after that.

Okay.

Okay. Any other questions?

That staff recommends supporting the nomination and Dilruba prepared a letter for the chair to sign if you believe this nomination is worthy of your support.

I'd move to approve it if and open it to more conversation, but I'm all for it.

I think technically we don't do a COA. Advance our approval over this.

Changes. We make changes.

All right. Yes. If you have

any comments on the text of the nomination, you're free to make them, submit them to me and I will forward them, but you would need to have them very much this week.

There a timetable by the way once it's official submittal?

It's imminent. I don't remember the exact date it's going to the state review board, but this was the last meeting that was going to be in advance of it. So it's sometime later this month.

Do the Domes people want to say anything? Yes.

Mr. John Beck in the back has said May 15.

Okay. Oh,

okay. So yes, this was the last meeting we could do this at. Gotcha. Okay. And we are required to review these. Right.

Okay. We have a motion for approval. Does anybody have a second?

Second.

Second. All right. All in favor?

Aye. Aye.

All right.

There's no question.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. That was an easy one. Pretty obvious. Yep. Okay.

Obvious as you got. Maybe I need to share

it again for the awards.

Oh. Now we move to the review and vote on the cream of the Cream City Award recipients.

What's the date of the award ceremony? May 30 or '28 or something.

Thank you. I

will also while they're looking up the date of this thing, just just inform the commission that for the National Register, fifty years is the cutoff. You all know that. And So this is clearly '67. So when you do the math, we're way beyond a thought, that means that coming up are going to be early nineteen mid 1970s buildings, you know, which are these kind of like sometimes, you know, poorly constructed but, you know, mid century modern type buildings. Are they worthy of advancing to the National Register because you don't think of them as your typical historic solid brick masonry stone building. So we'll be faced with that a lot here because we've hit that fifty year mark for the National Register.

Last year we sent two buildings built in the 1980s, I think,

to the Did it make it the 80s right? And then the central city thing, I mean that was That was 70s. 70s.

Are right.

Yeah, that was 70s. So that made it sound.

That's right. Okay.

Great. So we've got our our hopefully you all have a ballot in front of you. We've got our cream, the cream city nominees. The award ceremony is on the twenty first

at Bethany Place. May 1.

May 21. And

how many do we vote for?

Well, you can vote for whatever you determine to be worthy of winning And an we've got eight applicants this year. So we'll go over a little bit about each of these projects.

You need the alt tab over the PowerPoint again.

How do I go about this virtually?

Nick, you can just complete the PDF of the ballot and email that over to Timna.

Okay. Was that just on the because I got the presentation, is that on the HBC email?

Yes.

Okay. Yeah. I got it. I'll pull it up.

Thanks. So the first project is the LGBTQ landmarks program under the category of preservation advocacy or preservation education. In 2024, the LGBTQ history project launched its LGBTQ landmarks program in partnership with Wisconsin Historical Society in the city of Milwaukee. And they've now successfully designated two state historic markers for the Black Knight Uprising and for This Is It. And they've also recognized the Rainbow Crosswalks in Walker's Point through the work with the LGBTQ History Project.

All citizens can develop new knowledge, appreciation and consideration of the true diversity of Milwaukee history. So this was the state historic marker for Black Knight Uprising on Plankinton. This is the Catherine Foley Tavern and the Rainbow Crosswalks and Walker's Point and recognizing this is it, the longest operating gay bar in the state that recently closed down. So again, they were preservation advocacy and preservation education under those categories is what they applied project is Sunshine Management Realty for the Theo Leary duplexes on the corner of 29th And State under the category of residential property, one to four family. Sunshine Management owns a number of properties.

They advocate for a unique opportunity to invest in Milwaukee real estate. These two duplexes on the corner of 29th And State were fire damaged, long vacant, in disrepair. They've been fully rehabilitated and now have four newly renovated units. The property is described by the nominee as uniquely historic and grand rental home. I did go in for one of the Concordia Homes tours a couple years ago and they were still in progress but they were looking pretty amazing then. You can see some of the before photographs here, state of the buildings, And this is the after.

People. They came to present at my workshops. Did they? Yeah. They seem precise. After photograph. Aren't they long boards?

Yes. I would say they are

question. That's that's

So, exterior restoration project. They

good

came to my workshops to present their stuff to one the stores. So they are under the one to four

residential property, one to four family. The third project that we have is the Edison School Apartments at 5372 North 37th Street. The historic name, the North Milwaukee High School and Edison Middle School. They've applied under the categories of commercial or large multifamily property That's nice. Or back from the Brinkle board.

They were originally constructed in 1924 as North Milwaukee High School and later converted into Edison Middle School. The Long Bacon campus has been restored and reimagined to deliver 63 high quality affordable homes for seniors and 12 new build townhouses for families. And the project claims to preserve the site's architectural integrity and honoring its historic legacy.

Who were the developers for Edison? Do you happen to know?

What? What's that

for you?

We reviewed it. It would be in our files, but I don't I think it was Gorman. I think Gorman sounds right.

Right. Think that's

right. I the building itself. Think The Gorman will be the one that will be awarded.

I mean the applicants apply on behalf of an of a nominee so I would need to check. To check who

who nominated. Nominated? Is that what you're saying? You're not sure who nominated Edison?

It's in the spreadsheet on the on the file.

I see. I see. And they it's usually and and it's usually the developer or the person who owns the property that self Oh. That sends the information into often. Right?

Yeah. Most typically. Yeah. Not necessarily, but most typically. Okay.

So we have some before images and then after remodeling.

No exterior pictures again. Mean No.

Know, we should do something with our application because this is not very informative, you know, what we ask for.

I mean, the interiors didn't look

that great, to be honest with you. I mean

Well and That's see, that's that's that's I again, I mean, some for profit, nine times out of 10, did this. Yeah. So I would love to to I mean

If we look at You

see their great accolades for them? I mean, should have great accolades since they're being awarded those. Anyway, you you sort of get my point. I think that that's not just the building and the name of the building but it's actually who's the brains behind all of this that?

If we look at the AIA award application, you know, this kind of this is not very good. And, you know, what they do to earn the award is extensive with a a, you know, a statement of what they performed and photographs of the interiors and the exteriors. So I don't think that's too much to ask. They're used to doing it. They know how to do

it. Mean

when you boil it all down, there's

like four applicants on here.

I know there's a lot of repeats on this list.

It's seven or eight but most people applied for multiple categories.

There are eight projects and most of them applied for two projects two And the applicants can only win in one category, so whichever you feel is the most appropriate if you feel that either of them are

appropriate. The comment is well taken is that we might want to enlarge upon the application.

We have welcomed your additional input and support for many years now and have not received it.

Your point. Man.

Anyways, the point is still the same.

I'll get you the application from the AIA.

School. Oh, what the I

know what the outside looks like. I don't know what the inside looks like.

If anybody should be able to envision That's territory. I know, but still, you know,

it's pretty far

from off

district. Right

on the landing and the staircase, I'll never forget it.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm just realizing now we're, like, saying these are nice apartments.

Do we all are we at the point where we only kind of review those who proactively put in an application?

These are applicants for this year.

Because years ago I used see great things around and sort of

And none of you did.

Quite a while ago we did. But yes, we haven't you're right, we haven't recently.

We've repeatedly mentioned that members are encouraged to submit applications and suggest ideas, only Alderman Baumann came up with one this year.

But Tim, to follow along on that, how many applications did you get?

Eight. They're

in. Yep. Are

all. Yeah.

This is it. The one the eight that applied are the eight that are getting it.

No. No. They're not even getting it. We're voting on who gets it.

I don't know. I'm saying but eight out of the eight applications.

You vote we don't know.

No no I I but you are presenting them to us you obviously reviewed them of course we can discuss them. But I'm saying eight people applied.

Yep we received a projects.

And out of those eight.

You get to see all of them.

I see and now you need to just to whittle it down to how many.

As many as you've deemed worthy of winning the award.

I see.

What if we say zero. Then there won't be no need for a banquet.

Well, just we'll just have a party for nobody.

Is that, you know? I mean, that that's what I'm trying to get at. There is no total number. I mean, I know

I know If you want rules, give us rules. Yeah.

I I mean, I said sensing your frustration in terms of lack of of the

aggression Commissioner engagement.

Kind of participation that you would like. Yeah. So, I'm sorry.

That was we never did that. What?

Offered

how do we do it?

Quite a few years ago, we nominated stuff.

We did?

Yeah. But it's kind of tailed off.

But maybe it needs to get circulated more. I mean we can talk

about How do we some advertise of it?

It goes out to about 100 emails.

It's just

to construction people. And does anybody print it?

Usually, Milwaukee at least will print the press release or do

a And do we anything in the daily recorder or anything like that? Construction industry reads?

No? I'm not sure if those pick up on the press release.

It goes to the common counsel press office. It's whatever they And

they send it out.

Yes.

It should go to the daily reporter.

I would expect they're smart enough to send it to the daily reporter.

Yes. I'll finish off this list here so we can both.

We advertise it to the people we know in the construction industry and people have submitted regularly submit projects or people we think might be good candidates. Beyond that, it's the council press off the council PR office.

Very good.

Do think if we talk to the older persons that they would

They get the press release.

They do. Absolutely. They don't think this is worthy something in their

Basically not. No.

Okay. So we don't so the end result is that it's not doesn't have prestige enough to bother, right?

Basically.

Okay. So how do we change that?

I don't know.

Yeah. And that's why I'm saying is that I think at some point we need to for next year, not this year anymore, have a really a serious conversation.

What if we did this conjunction with a group like the County Historical Society or MPA or well, MPA will monitor it into a fundraiser. You know, something like that where we know they have an amazing mailing list.

Not to overdo it on the self flagellation of the commissioners here, but I think it's on us to take ownership of that if we're passionate about the cream of the city, cream of the cream city awards and push that out to people we know in the community to do that and just confession here, I've done absolutely nothing with the cream of the cream city awards beyond receive the emails, open the emails

Oh my goodness.

And expect to expect to have it presented here. And it sounds like I'm not the only one who's who's doing that. I think that's why

Could you put up put

this on an agenda at some point for next year to We that.

That.

Spent spent all the all years the agenda.

Repeatedly. We've been bringing it up every meeting for months.

Somebody obviously haven't hit a home run yet.

Somebody needs to volunteer to chair the committee.

Right. This could be embarrassing if we have like two people getting awards.

Yeah.

Right. Correct.

And the awards are not You just told me

it May 21, right? Yep. Which is coming up.

Have we locked in the red light.

Keep going with that.

Yeah. Well

it's Jim Hart.

Supposedly you're locked in as I'm seeing.

Well I'll be there whether there's one or if there's an event I'll be there. Yeah. But I don't want the event to be an embarrassment.

Yeah. Right.

With 20 people in the room.

I don't know that even I mean this number seems comparable to the number of projects we received last year and the year before. I mean, obviously, may not be enough.

They're very questionable history.

Yeah. I mean,

community in the corridor had a huge Scandal. Calico. We. They had a certain place out.

They're a

pile. They can't be given an award. Good cop.

Well, want good publicity. No. Anything.

I That mean mean, to the commission. Yes. We received the application. Who