Zoning Board of Adjustment - Regular Meeting

Milstone Township zoning board of adjustment. Uh, Mr. U L, can we have the reading of public notice? Sure. Thank you. In accordance with chapter 231PL1975, the Open Public Meetings Act, adequate notice of this meeting has been provided as required, specifying the time and location with such notice as being sent to the Asbury Park Press and the Times of Trenton, posted on the municipal public notice meeting bulletin board and filed with the township clerk.

Thank you, sir. Uh we're now going to do a flag salute. Um, and then when we're done, please stand silently for a moment of reflection and respect, remembering those in the past who have served our country and those who have presently served. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. Okay. Can we have a roll call, please? Mr. Okaya, yes.

Mr. Baramus, here. Mr. Katagan, yes. Mr. Ferrara, present. Mr. Lamros, here. Mr. SH here. Mr. Borghazi, here. And let the record reflect, Chairman Mustin is absent today. Mr. Barthamus is seated as chair. and Mr. Borgghazi will be seated for Mr. Mson. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, if I may, all administrative items are going to be carried to the April meeting. So that will include the minutes and the two resolutions that were on the agenda. We're going to go right into our application. That makes that easy. Thank you.

All right. So, the first uh application and only application tonight is the continuation hearing of JCPNL. the JCPL clean energy corridor upgrades and uh the use variance preliminary and final meter site plan application Z2504. Okay, Mr. Nadell, before you enter your appearance for the record, uh you have submitted one additional item uh since the last meeting. I'll mark that as A14 is the structure height summary consisting of one sheet dated 2326. Uh that'll be A14. council reenter your appearance and you may proceed with your application.

Good evening. Uh for the record, Benjamin Nadell, I am a partner with the law firm Saul Ewing out of Princeton, New Jersey, appearing this evening on behalf of the applicant Jersey Central Power and Light Company. As the board may recall, this application is in support of the New Jersey Clean Energy Corridor Project, also known as the NJCEC project. I'd like to start with a quick recap of where we left off in January. This project consists of critical utility infrastructure improvements throughout Mammoth, Mercer, Ocean, and Middle Sex counties. The project has been very successful so far and has secured approvals from several municipalities over the past two years, including Freehold Township, Jackson, Howell, Lakewood, and East Windsor. In fact, last month the project received approval from the borrow of Roosevelt. So, it continues to receive positive support throughout multiple municipalities in this state. In January, our witnesses explained the Milstone portion of the NJCEC project includes the replacement of 37 steel lattice towers and six wooden structures with new steel structures on concrete foundations. At the January hearing, JCPNL sought to install 41 new structures consisting of 48 steel poles on concrete foundations along an approximately 6 milei stretch of the existing corridor. The new structures are proposed to have heights ranging from approximately 62 feet to approximately 198 ft. All proposed work will occur within JCPNL's existing right of way. However, we had a minor design change since the time of the January hearing and JCPNL is now proposing 39 structures and 44 poles. So, we have a slight reduction in the number of structures and poles that are now being proposed. This was the only modification to the application. Everything else remains the same, including the locations for the new structures.

The properties subject to this application encompass JCPNL's existing right of way and are located within the township's RUP rural preservation zone, the R80 rural residential zone, the R130 rural residential zone, the R170 rural environmental zone, and the HC highway commercial zone. Public utilities are not expressly permitted within the HC zone and are conditionally permitted within the RUP, R170, R80, and R130 zone. Accordingly, JCPNL is seeking a D1 use variance, D3 conditional use variance, and D6 height variance from the board this evening in addition to preliminary and final major site plan approval. So on January 20 28th at our prior hearing, the applicant presented testimony from two witnesses. First, the board heard from Larry Josempa, First Energy's general manager of planning, who provided an overview of the NJCEC project, including the purpose and need for the project and its overall scope. The board also heard from Gregory Brown of Burns and McDonald, the project's design engineer, who testified regarding the transmission line design and the details of the proposed replacement structures within the existing right of way. For this evening, the applicant will continue his presentation with the testimony of four witnesses. First, we will have we will recall Greg Brown to just briefly describe uh the minor modifications that were made to the project since January. We're then going to call Jeffrey Morris from Boswell Engineering. Mr. Morris is the project site plan engineer. Mr. Morris is going to take us through the review letters we received from the professionals. Next, we will call Amy Jones, the project's environmental consultant. Amy

is with Dubo and Associates and Amy will provide an overview of the environmental permitting and the environmental aspects of the project. We will then call our next witness Pamela Dopart. Miss Dopart is with Exponent and she is JCPNL's EMF subject matter expert. And then finally, our last witness will be Christine Caffone, the applicant's professional planner, who will address the variance relief requested and the planning basis in support of the application. So, with that, unless there are any questions, I'll go ahead and call our first witness.

Mr. Chairman, if I may, um, we do have three members that are here tonight that were not present at the last meeting. All three have reviewed the record and have signed an application, so they should be eligible to vote on the application unless you have any objection.

No, I do not. Thank you. Uh before we start, Mr. Nate, um it's going to be a late night. We have a lot of public here. We like to have the public be able to have the right to speak. Uh so if we try to get out of here by 10:30, 10 10:30. That's basically 3 hours from now. Do you think you can I'd like to give the public an equal amount of time that you need. And so do you think you can uh present these four uh witnesses in like an hour and a half or so? And then I would give the public the same hour and a half to discuss their needs. Then we'd have an half hour to discuss. Then I think we can get to a vote tonight.

Yeah. Our our testimony is pretty brief. You know, the project itself, I mean, it's it's simple in terms of the improvements. Um but I do think we can complete our direct testimony probably within an hour. Okay. Okay. Let's go. That'd be great. Great. And I'd like to see that go. Thank you. All right. So, we'll uh recall Mr. Brown. Members of public, remember, as the chairman indicated, these witness are going to testify in order. You'll have those opportunity to ask questions and make your comments after they're done, hopefully in an hour. Sir, you previously been sworn. Please be advised, you're still on the road. Yes. So, please state your name for the record, please. Gregory Brown.

So, Mr. Brown, I really only have um one question for you and it is if you could please explain to the board um the minor modifications that were made to the project since January and why those modifications were made.

Yeah, absolutely. Uh so the the changes that were made are on the the site plan page 39. Um structure 202A 202B. Um, as part of the last stages of our design process, we evaluate existing structures that uh were not part of the scope of the project. And it was determined that some of the adjacent existing structures uh were going to be impacted by two new steel poles uh steel structures that we were installing. Um and so in an effort to not have to replace those structures and you know make matters worse as far as um increasing the scope of the project um we went back and and evaluated okay what can we do with those instead of putting the two new steel structures in what can we do to uh make sure we're not impacting those existing structures. Um so we were able to because of the specific unique area that that uh those two structures are in um we were able to actually use wood structures to replace it. Um and so it is within existing rideway. There's no u no new rideway that is needed. Um and we were actually able to lower those structures by about 10 ft um because they are crossing under another transmission line. Um, and so with with the way that the configuration worked, um, we're able to make wood poles work, um, to help help with this upgrade.

So, you're going from the steel, uh, you're taking two steel. What were those heights supposed to be? They were originally proposed to be 78 ft. And the new and the new wood structures, 68 ft above ground. What's it say here? 63. right here. 63 63 63 or 68. 68 uh Well, so yes, 60 63 ft would be that. Yeah, that's that's correct. Yeah, not 68.

Yeah. Yeah, my I'm sorry. And that and that wooden 63 is going to hold all the all the wires that is that they previously testified on both sides. That is one specific circuit that um that we're impacting. So not all the wires. Uh yeah, the existing there's one one existing circuit that we tie into uh that has six wires and that's going to hold six of those wires essentially the same same configuration. Right. Cuz you testifi they testified about the double sides of the wires. I think there was three on each. Right.

And is that these wooden poles going to have a total of six wires? Correct. Yeah. At 68 ft. Correct. Do you have any u images like this you can put up on this scale so we can show the public? Not for that specific. Not for that specific. All right. Pictures is a thousand words. Now if you guys So is the 63 ft above the grade or 63 ft above the foundation. And is the foundation at grade or above grade? Yeah, these structures will be at grade. Yeah. So 63 ft above above ground. And how deep will the foundation be for those?

Uh that we're still in in design for that. Um we typically aim for about 10% plus 6 ft below below ground of the of the full structure. So if you can do 63 ft for the six wires, why can't you do 63 ft for all of them instead of going up to 197 on some of them? Yeah. So this this is an existing 230 KV line um that is that those heights are already low. It's in a horizontal configuration um and has really short spans. Do you have any pictures of it so that we could figure out what you're talking about?

Do not we don't have a rendering of this part of the corridor or the or what's existing? Not not for this specific line because it is u Yep. part of a another existing line that goes uh much further to to another substation that's not part of this project.

Okay. Because I I guess I guess what the board I can tell from the board is that you test Yeah. one of the guys testified you have to keep it 20 the height is a result of the wires have to be separated by 26 ft. Is that being done on the 63 foot height? So the the structures that I yeah I testified to last hearing those are part of the 500 KV 230 KV double circuit structures and so this these that we are replacing are only just a 230 KV structure and uh on on an existing circuit. So because of the configuration that it so the 500 KV 230 KV structures are in a vertical configuration because the ride ofway is a lot narrow narrower in that uh in the corridor you only have 180 ft to work with. Um at this location the wires are in a horizontal configuration so they can actually be instead of stacked on top of each other they can be spread out

be side by side. Yes. And we have the rideway to be able to do that. And so that that alone because of the lower voltage and because of that uh we can actually make 68 feet work 63 I'm sorry you said at this location can you confirm where along where are we talking about Milstone stretch these are located six miles yeah it's so it's just on the east side right before Freehold it's it's about three spans north of Smithburg substation it's by the Freehold and Milstone border correct where the Smithburg substation connects to Milstone correct Correct. So, it's these yellow lines are kind of going off in a different direction. Yes, that's correct. Yeah, it's part of that.

Okay. But the main reason you're here is is for the big 550 all the way through. Correct. And those have those have not changed. Does this does this one need a variance? These this extra because this is you're not you're not adding anything or you're not you know anything making anything higher. I think they still need a height variable height. Okay. Yeah. And it's I don't I'm not exactly sure without looking which zone it's in. It probably still needs the use variance. It might still need the use variance. I'm not sure which zone it's in, but definitely at the very least the height variance. Okay.

All right. Nice picture or a plan or something. show. Well, um, our site plan engineer, Mr. Morris, will be the one to walk us through the professional review letters. Okay, we'll go ahead and call Mr. Brown. Does anyone have any questions for Mr. Brown? The board.

So, I do. So, on 63 on how much space do you need between those conductors vertically? So there isn't inter any um you know interference among them. The last testimony that we had was you needed 38 ft between I guess the 500 KV. Yeah, that's correct. What do you need between these the lower voltage? 230. Yeah, 230 KV. The the standard is 20 ft uh vertically. How many verticals will there how many vertical lines will there be? Well, three uh for this specific change that I'm referring to. Yes.

So, these are actually in a horizontal configuration, not not a vertical configuration. Okay. Um so, the clearance can actually be a little bit less about 15. So, could the 500s be in a vertical configuration?

No, because the the rideway that would be needed uh would be significantly increased wider. Yep. What about so instead of laying five horizontal I mean right now you need three you need six six combinations of wires right on the new poles you need three vertical on each side correct is that what you testified yeah on the on the 500 KV structures correct

so what if you laid two sets horizontally Would you be able to do that without the height? Not with the rightway that we JCPL currently has these meant to. I get it. But in the existing rightway, would you be able to achieve that goal if you had to lay them horizontally instead of vertically? No, we would not be able to. Why?

Uh well, JCPN only has 180 ft and 90 ft on either side of those. and with the clearances that we must maintain um with uh blow out of the conductor. So when the wind, you know, and the wires swing um we're pretty much at the max of that 90 ft. So um any any more horizontally, uh we would need additional rideways. You mean swing into the trees, swing outside the 90 ft or 100?

Correct. Right. Well, we're on a little bit of a topic. I'm I'm I'm I'm not sure if you have the history, but during Hurricane Sandy, did Milstone lose any of those transmission lines or did we just lose a whole bunch of distribution lines? Oh, we're Greg's from Kansas City, so um we we may have someone from First Energy that we could find out that was around for Sandy. Okay. Thank you. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Brown. Uh, we'll go ahead and call our next witness, Mr. Morris.

You want me to put the render up? Um, I think it's kind of now. Okay. Do you need it for your testimony? No. Okay. Sir, please raise your right hand. Do you swear affirm the following testimony about to give the whole truth, nothing but the truth? Yes, I do. Please say your name for record. Spell your last name, sir. Jeffrey Morris. M O R R I S with Boswell Engineering 330 Phillips Avenue South Atin. You can just give us uh Have you been in front of the board before this board? No. No. Can you just give a quick history of your Sure. credentials?

I uh BS in civil engineering from Lehigh University. I started working in Boswell Engineering in 1980. I have 46 years experience. I run the uh site civil department of Boswell Engineering. I've test I have licenses in professional engineering, professional planning, and professional land surveying. And I've given testimony in front of over 200 boards in the northern half of New Jersey. Thank you. We'll accept Mr. Morris's uh testimony.

Thank you. Um Mr. Morris, I'd like to refer to the engineering and planning review letter that was issued on November 20th, 2025 by Leon S. Ofen, consulting engineers. Um, specifically would like to run through the comments and questions that are set forth in on page five, section five. Um, so the first comment reads, "The applicant should provide testimony on all required variances and clarify all points where additional information is needed." It's uh my understanding that our professional planner will cover the variances uh later this evening. Is that correct?

That's correct. Comment B. The applicant should provide testimony regarding the specific corridor improvements and testimony should be given as to the timing and any proposed phasing of the project. Can you please walk the board uh through this comment?

Sure. The corridor improvements uh has has been previously testified uh run the entire corridor runs from uh the Smithsburg substation to the uh East Windsor substation of which I believe approximately 6 milesi is in Milstone. Uh so we we're going to be replacing all the lattice towers with uh single monopole towers with uh as previously testified with a 500 KV circuit on one side and a 230 KV circuit on the other side. The process of doing this is and uh our timing right now is to start uh access to this to the polls in June or July of uh 2027. uh that will start with um provide making those access uh areas so we can uh start demolition uh and it will move it won't be we're not going to demo the entire corridor and then come back. It'll be crews moving along in sync from one end to the other. uh as I said originally providing access with the matting and and the uh access roads. Then we'll be uh demolishing the uh lattice towers uh starting from the top down. Uh then uh removing the foundations of the lattice towers 1 ft below the ground.

Excuse me, Mr. Morris. Excuse me. In the back. You guys, if you could have any conversations, you got to take it outside. I'm trying. It's tough enough to hear. Thank you.

Sorry. Uh once the uh lattice towers are removed uh we'll begin uh drilling of the new foundations. They will be uh cylindrical foundations with steel cages inserted and poured concrete. Uh at that point uh they will be given uh four to six four to six weeks to cure and then the construction of the steel monopoles that will be coming in in pieces and will be erected on top of the foundations and that process will proceed down the corridor uh until that's complete and then we'll wire the uh install the wires and then after that obviously we have to pick up all of the uh access materials and restore the corridor. to what it was.

So, we talking about 12 months, 16 months, how long? Uh, it's pretty about 18 months. 18 months. Yeah. At each section, how long does it take? Each section is about 6 months. 6 months on each section. Yeah. So, it'll progress uh I don't we don't have a contract yet, so I don't know which end it's going to progress from, but it progress probably from freehold and work its way towards East Winds. I know you said you have other approvals. Has any of them started construction yet? I don't believe we not yet. No, we haven't done anything. No. So, if you do one, what does it do? You need to do all of them, right? Yes. So, what happens if we don't get one of them done? It holds up the project.

Spend all the money for none. Well, it holds up the project. Wow. Good. So, is it safe to say that you won't start the project? Do you have all your approval? Not for this. Not for this line. No. You mean yes. You know what? I take that back. We started work at East Windsor. We started East. We did start construction. Yeah. East Windsor substation's under construction right now. We haven't started the transmission lines yet. We started with the substation, right? We started with the substation. Yeah. You haven't worked on what you're before the board on? No. Well,

well, the entire the entire project is improvements to Smithsburg substation, improvements in Freehold, then running from there through Milstone, Roosevelt, and East Windsor. We're we're talking about the towers, the power structures, not the substations that get repaired all the time and upgraded all the time. We're talking about the actual towers and none of these municipalities have started. Was correct. Not this not for this line. No. So, was the East Windsor substation already scheduled for upgrading? Yes, it was scheduled as part of this project.

Scheduled even before you JCPNL decided to continue this clean energy corridor infrastructure upgrade. No, that's part of the clean energy quarter upgrade. So, if it was going to work from Freehold to East Windsor in that direction, why are you starting at East Windsor first? We have the approvals to do the East Windsor substation and it requires it also requires some coordination with public service electric and gas. So we had that scheduled early. Okay. Do the upgrades to the substations have to happen regardless of the transmission line? No. No. They're they're directly tied

they're directly tied in. when you're when you are dismantling the existing system and tying it in to the new system in sync as you testified. Is there an interruption in service? Not not to the municipality. the uh line is taken out of service but uh as part of the overall grid it's backfed around the grid to bit to you know there's always there's always a logic that you can take one leg out of the grid work on it and have everything else still work around and back feet in. So you the the municipality would not even know we when that line goes down we take it out of service

and during all the improvement in the in the right of ways how what do you have to bring what what has to be brought in to make sure construction equipment and excavation equipment and stuff like that doesn't get all stuck in the landscape out there. Do you have to bring in a roadway or gravel or

Well, we we're required to bring in gravel for the first uh 100 ft, 50 ft or 100 ft because of soil erosion measures. We have to have the construction access and after that we'd be using wood matting. Okay. Which goes down for the duration of the project. When it's done, it comes up. What happens to any roadways that get damaged with heavy equipment going from an, you know, a typical roadway into the right of way? We would work with your municipal engineer to uh document what the roadways look beforehand and afterwards and if there was any damage, would it be repaired?

I think we probably end up being liable for it. Yes. Depending what kind of damage it is. or likely or yes, we will be liable. They would they would be they would be responsible for the damage as for their any damage caused during any construction just like any other just like any other contractor. It would be a performance bond to hold them liable. Thank you. And how how on a typical on aund on a 190 foot pole, how deep and how wide would the foundation be?

The foundations will range uh from 30 to 40 ft and from 7 to 10t in diameter depending on the soil conditions. 7 to 10t in diameter. Yes. Okay. What happens to all the soil that comes out of the holes? It would leave the site. It would be first tested, be stockpiled temporarily, tested, and would leave the site and be and and transported to the proper facility for

um Mr. Morris. Comment C says the applicant should address removal or replacement of two or three existing communications cable antennas on existing lattice structures. I think we answered that last time. There's two of them. You said they're coming out. They're coming out. We can't put it back on anymore. They can't put it on our tower. No, because the 500 KV tower is not compatible with We went through. We We've already gotten their application by the way. The board has But so everyone can understand then we lose two cell towers. Well, they're not cell towers. What are they? The antennas. Antennas. There's one antenna on each one of them. They the antenna for cellular. It's it's it's still AT&T.

Yeah. So AT&T customers lose. They have AT&T is coming for proposed, right? That's a whole new tower. It'll be ready the first new one. So we have more meetings decades. All right. But that's not this application just to be clear for everybody who's here. Right. Thank you for clarif so those those lattice towers are priority sites on our cell tower ordinance on our wireless communications ordinances. So I'm assuming that that home was strategically located to give us adequate coverage in town. Correct. We can't hear them

except that putting antennas on those loudest towers. That was part of our ordinance but now Yeah. And so that that application that we have is probably is going to replace that communication facility in that general area. It's a brand new cell tower and they're already asking for three different communication two location applicants to go in. Okay. Uh com comment D. The applicant should address compliance with D and the township ordinance regarding storm water management. in a drainage report should be submitted to address the proposed new impervious surface and land disturbance areas. And I believe uh our next witness, Amy Jones, is going to cover that.

That that is correct.

Thank you. The applicant should provide testimony on the proposed construction operations, including but not limited to days and hours of operation, number of employees, anticipated site traffic, and refuge generated on site, which you kind of started talking about earlier. And uh yes, and uh our our proposed hours are six days a week uh 7 am to 6 6 pm. Uh depending on the crew, who's going to be what you know whether it's in installing the access uh demo of the towers, it's typically six to seven people. Uh obviously cranes are going to be required to dismantle and to install the new towers, cranes and drills. So, it's it's a construction operation.

Is that going to be inconvenience to the residents with these things behind them? Noise, long hours. Are we going to get a lot of complaints? It's it's a typical construction site. It's it's And our hours are limited to 7 to 6. No work. And that's not Sunday. It's It's always No, no Sundays. No Sundays. No Sundays. Uh for the public, there's a few chairs up front if you want to scoot up and get a chair. Mr. Morris, comment F um says conservation easement and monuments. I believe that the the rest of the comment was cut off in in the review letter. Um

it's my understanding that uh the applicant is going to seek a waiver from providing conservation easement and monuments given this is a linear transmission project. That is correct. We're asking for a waiver from that requirement. So there are some wetlands that on your on your easement, right? Yes. So, our ordinance requires that wetland to be in a conservation easement. It's very, very hard to take notes on this and make sure that the record is very clear when we have people talking in the audience. I'm going to ask if you please hold all comments to the end so we can get through the application and have a clean record. Thank you.

So, ordinance requires this wetland area or buffer to be in a conservation has been preserved dedicated to the township. Well, here here's the problem with here's the problem and I we understand that but this is a very unique application. It is okay because the applicant doesn't own these properties. Okay.

He's got an easement. They're not the owners. And I from from a from a board, I I I think it's probably not fair if you require conservation easements in those areas, which doesn't affect JCPNL at all because it's not their property. it affects the 81 or so owners of all those properties. So, I mean, I think a a waiver on that particular issue, you know, a waiver is probably appropriate because you' be imposing conservation easement on on on homeowners that are not party to this may not even want it. Okay. um the wetlands. It is what it is. But I just don't see it be prudent to then force these res because now the residents would have to sign off on the deeds. Okay.

Uh cuz we can't technically they're not the applicants. So we can't really force them to like in a typical conservation easement, we require the applicant for the conservation easement. So they do a deed from the property owner to the town. If we say all those wetlands that are on the all these acres, then are we as a municipality or the opportunity to go to these residents and force them to sign a deed to put a conservation easement on their property when they don't want to? Well, the easement will be in the easement and utility still not JCPNL's pro they just from being practical for the for the residents.

You know, if we on JCP if any JCPNL property, sure, but I I I don't know what the board thinks. Do you really want to think about imposing that on property owners that are not part of this application? They're not even building anything. But the easements with the town.

No, they have an easement. So remember JCPL is they these people either a residents bought property that already had the JCPNL easement on it or they've been here long enough and maybe JCPNL bought the easement from their great great grandfather or grandfather, whatever, and they've inherited the property. and they own it and it has an easement. So the the properties have it the easement runs through it. So if they get a survey they have the last 200 ft of their property says JCPNL easement on. So if you and say there's wetlands on that easement of 200 feet, we're going to then say well of that 200 feet 100 is is wetlands. So, we want you to put a conservation easement for the benefit of the town and essentially in the middle of nowhere, right? That nothing can be built on. It's a, you know, at the end of the day, nothing's going to be built there anyway in those areas that are not proposed or existing things. So, I don't think it's really relevant or I don't think it's really necessary to force residents to do that, especially considering no one's going to build a house back there. They can't. But that's up to you guys on this.

The question is who is the proper authority to give them the waiver? Is it us or is it tax committee? It's us. We're we it'd be us here I believe. Yeah. Us the board. Yeah. Because we're giving a waiver from the ordinance pre the land use ordinance. Okay. Yeah. I don't think it's fair to the residents. No, I I agree, Greg. It's not fair to the residents. So Is there anything on the board? No, I agree. I completely agree. You can't you can't force the residents to sign that anyway, could you? I don't think you could. Yeah. I mean, unless it in the easement it says it, right?

You have to be already it would be assigned with that that would already be in place if Right. I I I I I I would think practically that yes, we can't sue gentleman A who owns one of the pieces of property. You need to sign this. He's like, I didn't do I didn't ask for this. I ain't signed it. Can't sue him. And JCPNL probably can't sue him. The only the only relief would be probably JCPL suing us, saying that's an improper condition that I can't comply because Mr. So and so refuses to sign and put a conservation easement on his property. And it's his property whether it's an easement or not. Still his property,

but I don't know if they probably spent too much time on it, but I that's kind of my feeling. Matt, are you okay with that? Yeah. Again, it's your call. Yeah, I understand what we're saying. So, I hear objections. I think I know it's a very odd situation the way it is. So, y interesting. All right. All right, we skipped we skipped over point D in that section, did we? Did we get to that yet? Uh, our our next witness, Miss Jones, is going to cover, uh, comment D. Okay. Uh, so, comment G, uh, testimony should be provided regarding the proximity of the proposed structures to other uses and buildings, including residential dwellings.

Yes. Uh what we did was we investigated the distance from all the proposed structures to uh the closest residential building, the closest buildings. Uh and uh just as a cutoff, we found that there were uh six uh dwellings within 200 ft of our new structures and one barn. So we see six dwellings within 200. What are the block and lots and what's the actual distance? Okay. Do you have an exhibit that says that? So, but they're not in the Eastman. They're outside the Eastman, right? All the buildings are outside the outside. Yes. Yes, we have uh And who are the owner's names? I probably

I don't have the owner's names. I thought I saw bunch of little sheds and stuff in your ement. There's some There's some sheds in. We're not counting them. You're not You're not taking them out. Okay. Are your measurements taken from the foundation of the new structures? Yes. Okay. or from the middle of the pole. It's the middle of the pole to the house. Okay. Again, it's outside of these. We have the lot.

Oh, yeah. So there's yeah, as I said, the six dwellings are uh block 9, lot 916, which is 135 ft from And it's a it's that's on uh Windsor Road. Uh and do you have plans that you could show the board? We don't have plans to show the board to those exact. They're on our site plans. We don't have we don't actually have the dimension shown on the site plan though. We just did the site did the dimension quickly. What are we proving on the site plan? There is a site plan. He's just saying 43 pages whatever he's saying these dimensions aren't shown on the site.

The dimensions are not on there. Right. So what page in the plans is block 916 where the house is only 135 ft away. Can we see the plans? If you're saying if you're saying if you're saying that the wire floats 90 ft. So you're talking the house is less than 45 ft from the electric wire. It's winter road horizontally. Yes. No. Well during during during the extreme wind yes right. Well that's that's where you

it's not 90. Uh I think Mr. Brown testified that we have a 10ft buffer on that. So it's I believe it's 80 ft to fly is the fly out distance. He said 90 the wire the edge of the easement is 90 ft from the center and he and he testified that the wires could go out to 90 ft if if I'm wrong but that's that's what I I don't I think there was a there was a buffer there but uh I think it's a radius of 90 not actual singular distance

and this is the structure actually so the where the where the blowout exists is usually midpoint between the two structures these are houses located right next to the structure. Not next to the structure, but that uh structure number is uh I believe it's uh 12, which is on page 7. Has it got an address? Just

that address is uh the 135 is 1055 Windsor Road which is a uh I believe is a combination dwelling and business has green houses in the back. The next one is um 113. Can we see your survey? Cuz I because it looks like there's buildings running into your wires. There's no buildings underneath wires.

Greg, which page you I'm just looking at an aerial. You have an You have an aerial that shows this? No, we don't. No, we don't. So, I have a I have a suggestion. I You know, it's this is the second time we're we're trying to see. We don't have the videos up, but there's no nothing there's nothing visual to show us. And we're and it's not evidentary, but Google has bunch of structures underneath the wires. So, where's the aerial showing this stuff?

We have the proposed and existing rendering that we had up at the last hearing, which we could put up, but I don't think it's going to show what you're referring to right now. And what what do you consider? There are no dwellings under wires and there is some sheds that people put in our writing on on this p on on this one. Is there anything? I can just It looks like barns or something. Green houses. Green houses. Green houses. Green houses. Thank you. Those are green houses. They're directly under the wires. They're under the wire. Yes. They were constructed under the wires. Okay. So, how does that work? If somebody's they legally built something underneath the wire or are you allowed to do this? It all depends the

I wasn't there. And the the question was the structure, not the wires. I know there a lot of shed small structure in this easement area. That's why I asked if you taking them down or not. He said, "Look, all those in if they're in the way, we'd have to negotiate with the property owner, maybe temporarily move it or something." Well, are could you tell me are those structures that at least we purport to be underneath the wires, are they legally there under under your ement? I could not tell you right that that right now cuz I don't know what the easement language is for that particular lot. Okay. And if

in the past we've had people build things under under the wires and we try we try to work with them and make if it's get proper language that they don't have a right to be there but we're not going to tear it down. But uh it's not supposed to be there. But isn't that the kind of information we need at the board to understand what is really being impacted here by these things? That's that's part of the decision- making. you know, the impact and how next to that one, how how tall's that built that how tall is that structure that's 135 ft from the house? That structure is um

187 ft high. So, so is is there are you from an engineering perspective this structure could theoretically and know could fall your house is within the fall zone of your monopoles?

Not necessarily true because the fall the monopoles first of all the po the the wires are the this the uh tension on the monopole. So the B if the monopol is going to fail, it's going to fail in the line of wires. Uh they don't typically fail obviously. Uh and uh the you can't say it's a it's a perfect radius on the fall zone. It's that typically the the poles do fall in the easement along the wires. That's where the failure zone is. It's not perpendicular. And all these houses are either perpendicular or almost perpendicular. So the green houses are in the fall zone. Yeah.

No, the green houses are not in the fall zone. The green houses are more than 200 feet away from the fall based on Okay. I don't have dimensions. They look significantly closer to the tower than the house does. I agree. But we don't I don't have for them. So I don't I guess these two towers how tall? 32 136 on that one. Yeah. I know. Okay. So, it's 50 ft high. Yes.

On our existing structure. I mean, again, just something for if the board has to decide on on all this information. How are we supposed to decide on things that we don't have? The problem is the not seeing what they're just saying it is. And I I don't understand how 187 house 136 is not in a fall zone of of an 187t structure. That does not make mathematical sense. The green houses are 88.5 3 ft from the tower location. More concerned about the person's house.

Well, I don't want to destroy their food. Tomatoes. So, so depending So, depending on for an impact, depending on where the sun's going, this new structure is going to if the sun's behind it, it's going to it's going to block the sun on this person's property now at 187 ft. It's only 136 ft away. Is that how it works? It'll cast a a small shadow on it. Yes.

The structure is uh Members of the public, I I know you want to comment, but the more and more we have to stop, the longer and longer this takes. So, if we really I know you're very passionate about it, but you just got to bite the lip sometimes and let us get through this. Okay. Thank you. And Mr. Morris, the last comment is that testimony should be provided as to any proposal. We only we only did we got we went through we got six we got six lots that are within two within 200 ft. We only done one and one's we were found one is 100. So what's the next one?

Next one is on 244 Milstone Road. It's 113 ft from the tower block. Lot and block is 3901 lot 39. Does your testimony again get on that that the house that's 113 ft away is not in the fall zone of an 187 foot structure. It depends as as I said before it's not

where we predict if if the structure were to ever fail if they so rare that they fail but it the structure would not fall perpendicular it would fall in line with the wires. I'm not saying it's not in the fall zone, but I'm not saying they they they don't if the the so few that have failed across the country, uh they don't they don't fail in that direction. Okay. What fail along the wire direction? Yeah, they fail along the wire direction. Okay. It's typically because something hits the wire, right, and pulls it in that direction. Okay. What's the proposed height of the What's the proposed height of structure that's 113 feet from this person's home? What's the existing height?

Existing height again is uh 136 ft and the uh proposed structure is 198 ft. And what's structure number? That's structure number 30 39 35. No 30 3901 390139 structure number she asked for structure. That is on page number uh 22 structure number 30. Structure number 30.

Mr. Nadell, I have a question while we're looking up some of these numbers. You you've testified Freehold, Jackson, How Roosevelt all approved these uh this change of wiring through their towns. Do any of them have structures like we have that are that close to these towers? They do. Yeah. Jackson had number of them. Mr. Morris would know better than I do. Yeah, Jackson had a number of them. I don't know the exact number, but Jackson had a number of them. And did they did did that particular household or those people talk about this and say, "Hey, I'm I'm within a distance of it falling or it was the question was asked. We responded the same way and it was accepted." Okay.

Thank you. So, uh, also structure 30 is 144 ft from uh, lot 3901, block 3901. This is what it says is lot 39. It's not I think it's 38. So, so, so the third building is which is the same tower is same tower the opposite o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o opposite side and what and that's 1981 136 and how far is that property? That's 144 ft. Yes, that's lot 3902.

That's three. That's three. Uh next one is uh on block 45 lot 4.19 that is 10 main hollow road structure 43. What was your What lot was that? 10 M hollow road. That is on page 32.

And the distance the house is from the pole is what? 141 ft. 141. And the pole is 187.

And what's existing? Uh, I believe it's 134. Okay, that's four. Okay, next one is um we believe it's 8 Tinpedler Drive. That's uh lot one block 451 as structure number 44 which is also on uh sheet 32 that is 153 ft and the struct both sides the same structure. Oh, no. That's I'm sorry. That's structure 44 and that's 178 ft high.

Existing again. Existing is uh 135 and the last is uh 31 stage coach. The home is it's lot is block 63 lot 8. The home is 102 feet from the pole and the pole is 132 feet high. What number? That is pole 52B.

So you're proposing a 132 there. What's existing? I believe it's the same height. Slightly smaller. Which point is it? It's uh 52B. Uh 2030 trying to get there.

That would be page um 407.

Yeah, right. That's 132 ft high. No, that's our proposed existing. I'm sorry. The existing is 127. 127. a question. Yes. Is is it fair to say that you are proposing new structures in the exact same location of your existing? It's they're close. They're not the exact same location, but they're they're close. They're within how many feet? 20. Okay. Relatively close. Yeah.

Okay. Is the distance between one to the next the exact same distance? Is everyone pole to pole, 50 ft away, 100 ft away? Those distances vary.

Okay. So why and if they vary, why wasn't it looked at to put these structures not so close to people's houses? Why couldn't they be designed that instead of the house that's 100 ft away, let's push it theoretically, 100 feet down the road or down your easement to a brand new place. So that maybe there's no houses around it. We're not talking about the these neighborhoods are just lined with houses like like you you'll you'll you'll live it. Why wasn't the place designed so to have the less least amount of impact to the existing residents that you're putting buildings so close to? Why isn't this 200 ft away and so this so this neighbor's not doesn't have within the falls or anything like that? Why why are we using the same spot and not designed to least impact the residential homes that are less than 150 ft away from these homes? We'd have to bring Greg Brown up who designed the project to answer that one.

Okay, Greg, come on back. Could you also answer why like for example that last pole there is increasing by five feet? Is that five feet necessary from the existing? I mean, is that 5T necessary to effectuate this project? It just it seems so close to me when we're talking about these distances. Why could it not be replaced in kind in terms of the height? And maybe that's a Mr. Brown question also. That is a Mr. Brown question. Okay. Two questions. Mr. Brown, your your choice which you want to answer first. You're still under us. Yeah. One second.

Yeah. So to address the the change in height by 5 ft, these structures, the original structures were built in 1959. So design codes change over that 60 to 70 uh years. And so they, you know, are we needed five additional feet in order to meet those design clearances. Okay. So it's not so much a function of uh the energy associated with the project. It's just basically it's new code that you're meeting for those. Correct. for that structure for that particular it's 230 KV being replaced 230 KV for for that specific replacement. It essentially is being replaced in kind. It's just that the new codes require a a different design. Yes.

Okay, that's helpful. Thank you. And to address the question related to to spotting um generally in order to kind of keep design consistent um and to minimize like a visual impact the structures are placed like for like as closely as possible to the existing structures.

But there's nothing that nothing from an engineering perspective right that you couldn't move it. Let's assume that there's not a house for another 200 yards. There's nothing from an engineering perspective that would prohibit you from moving it away from these houses other than that you want to keep the visual impact the same even though you're creasing it by 50 ft. Is there anything from an engineering perspective?

Oh, classic. Uh, it depends. um the terrain that is between those poles. For instance, um if we move a structure, you know, 50 to 100 ft increases span length between the structure, you know, the next adjacent structure, then there's a highly likelihood that those structures are going to go up in height. um if there's um some sort of hill or something in the middle of it. Um you know, maybe we placed a structure in such a way that it is optimized on top of a hill to minimize height. Um and so just it just kind of depends on where it

there's there's nothing hard that's like absolutely not that wire can't go that far. I mean there's obviously a limit between one how far you could do from one to the end, right? I mean that's just practical. So, but theoretically from an engineer, you can move it. There's a lot of different factors involved, terrain, everything else. But it can be done, right? Assuming all the factors that maybe it's a little hill there. It's we're millstone. It's pretty much farmland. It's pretty straightforward, right?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Was anything taken into account to hey let's optimize this entire thing or just no problem putting right where all the other ones are you know kind for kind uh well I'd say it is kind of optimized because of the existing locations are pretty equal in span length so keeping them close to where they are right so you kept it the same versus hey let's take a look at this one or let's change this one or hey it'd be better if we did this over here you didn't do any of that you just put them right where the other ones um reason generally there there are locations where where we have done that where we just Greg test Greg asked you could testify

Greg asked if you could you if you had to to save a house from getting hit by one of these you could move it just might it might pose some problem because you say there's rocks there's terrain there's something you could do it that's something that we could definitely look into I I have some Mr. Brown questions if you guys are finished while he's here. I forgot to ask them before. Just watch. Yes, keep riding time. Thanks.

So, you testified that Freehold Roosevelt and East Worer approved the project or the the proposed the proposed applications. Can you tell us for the record how many of these types of structures that you're proposing in Milstone were proposed for each Freehold, East Windsor, Freehold, Roosevelt, and East Windsor in Jackson?

Um, I'm I'm not going to have those numbers off the top of my head. It's something we can get to you certainly. So, if you're only skipping across a road to get into into the Smith, if you're going from Milstone to Smith um substation, it's not far. Maybe I don't know. It's really not that far. Maybe have two, three. Roosevelt is a very, very small town. It maybe is a few. Yeah. And I don't know how many is in East Windsor to get over here, but I just want to ask. So, can we get those numbers? Yeah, we we can get the We We have them. We don't have them with us tonight, but we we have them.

Okay. And also, can we get these numbers, too, while you're looking? How many private land owners had those structures on their property? Right. Okay. like these folks here in the audience do in other towns? Yes. In those three towns. You want to know how many properties were involved in each town? No. How many? Yeah, it could be. How many private land owners had the structures on their property? I know it's in a right of way, but

or you can give us the same data that we're looking for here. How many were nearby and how many actually on their property? So I think I understand you're by private property owner versus if it's owned by the county of Mammoth or if it's owned by the D. Okay, we can we can put that together.

Okay. And one more Mr. Brown question. So it seems like the polls go from 125 ft up to 197t. Why why is it the 197 foot height like the magical height for the highest ones? Is there a limit to where they're not safe anymore in the way of height? Like is there a height limit?

Uh not for not necessarily for safety. Um because we could design it in such a way um to make it safe, but uh over 200 feet does get into FAA regulations. Um, so we best we can stay under 200 feet. So you're three feet below where you need to go to FAA. Yes. Okay. That's in the That's in the extreme case where we have to use 197t tall structure. So this is the extreme case millstone.

Well, I mean throughout the throughout the line they're not all 197 ft tall. So where where we can lower the heights we do is a bunch. Okay. How many are two 197s? 192 197 three three. There's three. Oh, I think there's more than five. How many 197 polls you have? 8 9 10. Is that 92? 192 and 10. Oh, yeah. But I'm saying 197. 197. Yeah. Why you have the same chart? We have two 197. Yeah, there's there's a bunch. I see 198.

There's three 197s. One 198. All right. Yeah, let's keep going. 198. Stephen, did you did he answer all your questions? Yeah. So, is it FAA? Is it 200 or 201? 200. 200 even. So, at 200, you have to get involved with FAA. Yeah, we have to we have to at least file with them. Okay, got it. So, it doesn't necessarily mean there's going to be a risk. I got you. I got you. I was just curious about the height and Yeah. I'm very interested to find out how many structures are in Freehold, Roosevelt, and East Windsor. Yeah.

Compared to what you're proposing for Milstone. Thank you. Hi, Mr. Nate. You're in um you're 1 hour in. Just checking time. I know you have questions slow you down all that. So nothing's your fault. No, no. I want to keep things moving along. Understood. Uh the last comment in the review letter was about if there's any signage, Mr. Morris, I don't believe there's any signage proposed with M. Correct. No. Right. And as for the outside agency approvals at the end of the review letter, we will uh get to those with Mitch Jones testimony. Yes. So that would conclude our direct testimony for Mr. Morris. All right. Does anyone in the board have any questions for Mr. Morris?

I have one quick question. These are steel poles, right? Do they rust? They're galvanized. I've seen I've been looking at them all over the state these days and I see some of them they seem brown. Well, there's there's some that we actually put a brown patina on. Is that what that is? Okay. I just don't know if they Why do you put the Why do you put the brown on some? Uh there there was requests for it. Uh I it it was preference just aesthetic especially uh I I believe we put a one in uh interl was brown I believe. Yeah. Just I've seen different colors everywhere. I just didn't know if they rust or they just they were smaller ps much more. No they don't rust.

And thank you Mr. Morris. Thank you. You're good with taking notes. You're going to need a break or anything? Okay, she's taking I think we'll probably only have time to get through one more witness. Um, so we could go with our environmental consultant, Amy Jones, or we can have our EMF expert, uh, Miss Dopart. Miss, which one lives doesn't live in New Jersey? Uh, that would be Miss Dopart. And her testimony would be quicker than Miss Jones. Yeah. I mean, she traveled a far this, right, Mr. Chair? I think we'll she travel the far as let her at least let her get in. All right. So, we'll go ahead and call Miss Doard.

And members of the public, you understand what we're doing. We want you've been sitting here patiently after my last instruction. So, we want to give you an opportunity to actually speak without me yelling at you guys. Okay. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear from the following testimony about to give us the whole truth, nothing but the truth? I do. Please state your name for the record, spelling your last name, ma'am. Uh Pamela Doart. D O P A R T. And can you give us your credentials of uh this environment? Sorry, environmental educ. No, that's Mrs. Jones. Sorry. Educational.

Yeah. Uh sorry. Uh can you hear me? Okay. Yes. Okay. Um so, uh I am a um environmental and occupational health scientist. My background is in public health. Um I'm here tonight as an EMF subject matter expert. Um, I have a PhD in environmental health sciences from John's Hopkins University uh, School of Public Health as well as a master's in the same degree from the University of Michigan School of Public Health. Um, I work for Exponent, a scientific and engineering firm where I review, analyze, and conduct scientific research. Um, I have been at Exponent for about eight years. And prior to that I was at the US National Cancer Institute um in their occupational and environmental epidemiology branch doing um exposure and epidemiology studies on cancer.

And so you have a background then on electromagnetic fields, how they affect the human body. Is that correct? So my my right my background and training is in um exposure assessment and epidemiology. So I my work involves understanding exposures in our communities and workplaces and putting them into context with what the science says about potential health effects and I've been working in the area of electromagnetic fields for about eight years. Right. Very good. I I accept your credentials and I look forward to your testimony.

Thank you. Um so Miss Dopart just for for starters can you please um provide us just with a general overview of EMF and how it plays a role in our everyday lives?

Certainly. Sure. Um so EMF uh stands for electric and magnetic fields. Um and EMF are produced uh wherever electricity is generated, transmitted or used. Um, so examples of sources of EMF that we are exposed to commonly throughout our day include all of our electrical appliances and equipment. Um, hair dryers, vacuum cleaners, power tools, anything that's plugged into an outlet. Um, all of the electrical wiring and lighting in our homes and buildings, um, all of the distribution lines that run through our neighborhoods, and then, um, you know, transmission lines and related infrastructure. Um the EMF uh that are produced from the proposed project we're talking about tonight is the same type of EMF that um is produced by the existing line and by all of these other common household appliances and other sources that I just listed off. Um because we live in a pretty electrified modern society, we are effectively surrounded by EMF in our daily lives as we move throughout our homes, workplaces, and our communities. Um and one very improp import important property of both electric and magnetic fields is that the field levels decrease very quickly with distance as you move away from the source. Um so for example um you know sometimes help to pick like a picture like a coffee cup or a cup of hot tea or hot coffee. Um if you were to put your hand you know on top of that cup or very close to it you would feel warmth and that's the temperature field that's being created by that hot beverage. it kind of surrounds the mug and as you move your hand further and further away, you feel less and less heat. Um, that's very similar to how an electric or magnetic field behaves. It surrounds the immediate space around the source that produces it, whether it's the hair dryer or the transmission line. And as you move further away from that

source, um the levels are going to drop very quickly with distance. And that is both um horizontal distance. So just physically moving you know further and further away from your appliance or your your um your power line as well as vertical distance. So you know if a if a line is um raised higher off the ground then the levels on the ground would be um lower.

Thank you. And during the January hearing, uh there were some questions from board members and from the residents about how the new circuits, right, the number of wires uh is increasing. Um could you please explain how that uh might impact EMF?

Certainly. Um so I I know there's discussion about the you know variety of number of wires. Um ultimately there are two circuits that and that's what's been testified to. There's the 230 KV line which is there now. Um and that is a source of both electric and magnetic fields currently and then um there's the 500 KV line that will be you know joining that in the proposed project and that will be a source of the same EMF. Um the EMF levels from any given line are going to vary depending on a number of factors. Um the overall design and configuration of the of the lines will have an impact um as will the um the loading the current running through the line at any given point in time you know on a given day or throughout the year. Um and then um again distance has a big role to play in in um magnetic electric and magnetic field uh levels. So increasing height or on some projects you know increasing um like maybe moving the line further in one direction or another you know will result in decreasing levels in in the opposite direction. Um electric fields are also um very readily blocked by common conductive grounded objects. So fences, trees, buildings, retaining walls all will block electric fields pretty pretty.

Thank you. And um just one final question. During the last hearing um there were some questions and concerns about residents and um where homes are located near a structure and how um the new structures, although they're they're higher, they would technically bring the wires further away from the residences where they are today. Uh would that impact uh the EMF levels? Uh well it's it possibly could impact the the levels um you know they again they will vary with time or you know with with various the configuration and and the loading of the line. Um but perhaps you know more more broadly um so because we are exposed to EMF from multiple sources throughout our daily lives um this is a particular this topic this exposure is a particular interest to the scientific community. Um and it has the um potential health effects of exposure to EMF has been um you know research on this topic has been conducted for for decades since the 1970s. Um and so there's now been thousands of studies that have been conducted looking at um exposure to EMF, including from transmission lines and and various health outcomes. Um because this body of research is so large, there's been a number of health and scientific organizations around the world that have performed comprehensive reviews of the research. Um this there's there's many, but um the World Health Organization is one example. um the International Agency for Research on Cancer. Um here in the US we have the US National Institute for Environmental Health Sciences. Um and all of these agencies have looked very comprehensively at the research and published their own findings and reviews. Um many of which are available for the public freely online. I find them very accessible. I think they're

great sources of of um information for those who want to learn more. Um overall, these agencies have all been very consistent. none have concluded that EMF um causes adverse health effects at the levels that we um experience in our everyday lives including from transmission lines. Um and so this would hold true for both the um the current project that the current lines that are there now as well as the proposed project.

So your testimony is that we have these lines going through our town. There's no studies are saying it doesn't affect us healthwise and this increase in killer voltage almost not quite double but you know 70% to higher will not affect anyone in this room their their livelihood their have their health that's what all these studies are saying this

so the there is an increase in voltage the how that will directly impact the EMF levels again that that's going to vary by project but if there is an increase it yes that's correct that the um the large volume of research has been conducted looking at um you know communities around the world that live near transmission lines of different voltages. They've looked at um children, adults, the elderly and again this looking at the total body of research as a whole. None of these organizations um which is what I rely on as a scientist, right? They look to what these scientific and health organizations are saying. Um, none have concluded that EMF exposures from things in our community, including transmission lines, um, result in adverse health effects.

I have a question. I know nothing about EMF. So right now you have going down the lines in your research of this project you have how many existing 200 uh KB wires going down the line. It's it's one circuit. I understand that there's there's six wires. No the present present day what's going what's going on but you looked at it to know the impact. What did you look at? What's existing? What's the existing? Does 200 KBs go down? Is how many wires go down there now that you when you did your when you looked at it?

There are six there currently. Okay. And they're at what 200 KBs each? Well, it's it's one circuit. So, together the six make one active 230 KV circuit. Okay. So, then that produces a certain EMF level. There is an electric and a magnetic field associated with that. Yes. Now they're proposing now adding a 500 to it and you testified it doesn't m the EMS level does not EM what's about doesn't ch doesn't change by adding that new two and a half times thing it it's not that it doesn't change it it doesn't change from a health impact

well let's talk about well health impact is it you're adding that does the EMF go farther further away does it does like what's the impact you say no it doesn't matter the health but where's the impact like left to right does the EMF go farther could you have a more electricity cuz if you're only at 200 and that's why I say I don't know anything and the EMF goes 50 ft but now I'm at 200 plus a 500 it goes back 100 feet I don't know

can you tell us could you explain to the board how the increase effects distance of the EMF, whether the EMF is going to cause health risks. Let's talk about physically where the impact is because that's we're trying I'm trying to figure out so they get to your point because if it's EMF is 5T from the pole and the houses are 100 200 feet, no big deal, right? That's kind of where where I'm getting at. Understood. Understood. Um, so yes. So the

regardless of whether it's just the 230 or if it's the 230 coupled with the 500 um the strongest EMF fields will be directly under the line and they will continue to drop quickly with distance. Now the the rate at which they drop is going to be you know project and configuration specific but um you know as you as you move 50 100 feet away yes the levels have dropped quite significantly and typically by that point they are going to be closer to the background levels that you would experience from other sources. Um and because of that rapid decrease our when inside our homes our primary sources of exposure come from the sources inside the home. So our our appliances, our wiring, our our lightings, things like that. Um yeah,

but these houses are like did you where's the distance in in your expertise? Where is the distance the EMF being extended to? We have houses that testified 113 115 like what's the number you're saying these wires going to produce an EMF somewhat level even to a background level at what distance? And let's assume there's nothing like you said the grounded fences because I think that's part of your point is that it depends on the site. So let's just assume it's a clear

Yeah. I I I couldn't I couldn't unfortunately give a specific I mean there there are ways to do that analysis. I don't have that information. So I don't you know um I what I have um just sort of general you know understanding. So there are there's a a fair bit of published this this might help. There's a there are organizations and and researchers that have just gone out to transmission lines across the country and taken measurements like directly under the line 20t away 50 feet away 100t away to see how quickly those levels are dropping right and they've done this for different uh you know voltage transmission lines. So, for example, the National Institute for Environmental Health Sciences, NIHS, which I mentioned earlier, if you Google NIHS booklet, EMF, there they put together this nice booklet that goes through um, you know, what EMF is, what are common sources we see. And there's actually a table in there that does exactly this. It has different voltages up to 500 kilovolt and um, you know, kind of what a typical level magnetic field level is directly under the line and then as you you move away. So um these are not I'm not trying to say in any way that these are representative numbers of this project but let's say like directly under the line it was 80 milligs and I'm happy to walk through

is that the real number or you making no that's that's an example number well I we really we're trying to get at what is the real number at 100 ft where these people are 150 ft where they are because if if you don't know we want to know the impact and if you don't know what the level is at these houses how can you testify as to what's the impact of these residents living there. I I don't have that specific information. Um the the one other piece that I I could share um

is that so there's um there's no federal limits for electric or magnetic fields on transmission lines. Um in the state of New Jersey, there's no uh magnetic uh field limit either. There is a electric field limit at the edge of the right of way and it's three kilovolt per meter. So at the edge of the right of way in the state of New Jersey transmission lines must be measured an electric field measurement of 3 kilovolts or less. Um there are two scientific organizations that based on their review of the health research have recommended exposure limits for the general public and as well as for workers and um these two organizations they're they have set magnetic field limits. So that is what we typically use when we want to put exposure magnetic field levels from transmission lines into context with health. We look to the um exposure guidelines from these two organizations and you know to confirm that the um magnetic field levels from a transmission line are going to be below this recommended health standard. Based on the large amount of research and and measurements that have been done on various transmission lines, even standing directly under the line, um the magnetic fields are nowhere near they're significantly below the um health-based exposure guidelines that these two agencies I'm happy to identify um have have issued. And so that gives us some context for you know where do we see transmission line field levels and how do they relate to um the you know exposure guidelines that we are trying to meet

and what are those two so it's um one is the international commission on nonionizing radiation ICP INERP and the other is the international committee on electromagnetic safety. Do you know what the exposure limit for for EM EMFs are? Yes. So for INERP um the magnetic field limit for the general public is 2,00 millig. I'm sorry. What is that word you're saying?

Yes. So so mil millig um m i l l i g a u ss. So a g is a unit of measurement for magnetic fields. um a 2,000 milligas limit probably, you know, doesn't mean anything without context. Um and this is another reason why some of these organizations info sheets are very helpful because they will provide examples. But for example, your electrical appliances when you're holding something in your hand, you're about 6 inches away from a haird dryer or a um a you know a toaster um you can see hundreds to maybe a thousand milligs um and exposure. And then as you move, you know, if you move that hair dryer from 6 inches away to a foot away, that's going to drop from let's say like 500 millig down to 10 or 100 millig. And then, you know, so on and so forth. Um, so that that that's you know those levels from your appliances are well below this 2,000 millig standard and standing directly under transmission line.

How many milligals is what you're proposing here?

I don't have the answer to that specific. Wouldn't you need to know that answer to determine whether h how far the exposure is for it and whether houses and structures are going to be within that exposure level? If you don't know what it's proposing, how could you say it's not going to be a health risk? Because you know at 2,000's a problem, but if you don't know what it's generating, how do you say that 50 feet going to be a problem, 100 feet going to be a problem? If you don't know what it's generating, then how can you say it's not going to be a problem? just I I there's certainly value in having the specific data for this line. I not not questioning that at all. I just you know there are there's lots of data out there on what magnetic fields are

data you're you're testifying as an expert that the residents of the township of Milstone that live within this area will not be negatively impacted by EMS from these proposed lines. So you need to testify not what other people said that you know what it's going to produce. You know what the impact's going to be and from the distance of X to Y there'll be no impact. Could you testify to any of that? I could I could testify I mean based on my years of experience in this field I know that even standing directly under a line you were not anywhere near 2,000 milligous exposure levels. But you have you done any studies regarding the amount of electricity on this and what what it is? I that's the question like

people are

what about prolonged exposure like what what the attorney is saying you know standing on for for a half a minute might not have much of an effect but if you were there for a lifetime how much of an effect would it have? So um so it's so going back to this this 2,00 millig just as as an example you know that is a recognized recommended exposure limit. It's electric and magnetic fields aren't like a chemical. They don't build up in the body over time. So you're either exposed in that instantaneous moment above 2,00 mig and and even that's got a big buffer in it of course but um or you're exposed below that. it there's not it doesn't accumulate over time um or or anything like that.

But how does it can it work almost like skin cancer from sun? You don't get cancer the first time you go out in the sun but if you go out a thousand times for 15 or 20 minutes each time you could develop sun uh cancer from sun exposure. So, so no, no. And and again be as long as you are um staying below the um expo exposure as long as your level is below the exposure guidelines. But to go take that one step further, the only confirmed health effects of exposure to EMF, which occur at very high exposure levels, even higher than we see electrical workers exposed to, are short-term um temporary effects like the tingling of of skin, like a sensation of tingling skin. Um some or um people said like flashes of of light. Um there's there's no confirmed association with, for example, cancer at all at any exposure level. Um you know, the the only recognized health effects are these these short-term effects that can occur at very high levels. And again, they are not going to be at the exposure levels that we're going to see in our um communities. And

if there's a 2,00 uh millig level, a suggested maximum, then there must be a reason for that. And that that that level has some effect some long-term effect. Correct. Correct.

Not not long-term effect. So, what what hap these agencies that set these limits, they looked at studies where um you know, either sometimes it's it's people that were exposed high, you know, unintentionally unintentionally high levels or it was animal studies or human cell studies where you intentionally expose these animals or cells to very very high levels. And the only effects that they were seeing were these um again these short-term they they call them like nerve stimulation um effects. And so basically the agencies go okay we see an effect at this level so we want to stay below that and we're going to add a big buffer in between where we're seeing the levels and where we're going to set our exposure limit. And so there's actually a lot of you know area in between that. Um we in public health you you intentionally set your levels sign you you put you build in a big safety factor a big buffer right to um to um you know protect vulnerable community uh populations and

but again you don't know where any of these houses what level they're at whether they're in the buffer they're low or they're high. Well, I I'd suggest too, you can pick up a gas meter very easily online. TEMU sells them, by the way, for about $15 and they go up from there. And you can check that if you're a person who lives adjacent to these lines, you can know what it is currently. And then of course you can check once that 500 plus mill sorry kilovolt line is in place you'd be able to see the difference between those two and then understand if you're being exposed to

greater amounts. So that's an option for anybody. Yeah it's a little too late at that point. It is but at least even if you know now if you were they should know what would produce 2,000 milligos. I got that from you said like we might get like a few hundreds to a thousand for a haird dryer. What type of source would produce that many? Just so we could see scale. I would be different depending on

you know a an electrical worker something you know I don't know something going wrong while they're fixing a a line. Maybe it it wouldn't be something that a g me member of the general public would be exposed to. I I couldn't think of a scenario where that level would be reached. There there's not a similar object or transmission line or a power plant or something that would be comparative that somebody would be near. No. No. I mean these these levels are you know correct. Yeah. Are they mostly maybe I'm going too far down the rabbit hole. Are they almost mostly like hypothetical as part of these studies where they were artificially increasing this level to see where those uh physical effects were happening to the

that's that's one common area of study. So I mean you know it's probably not surprising it's it's very challenging to get permission to intentionally expose people to very high levels but there are you know case reports where again likely usually like line workers are exposed at high levels and then they determine what those exposures were and what effects they experienced. But yeah, I have another question. I'm sorry. Do you have do you have a question? No, I was I was going to suggest that maybe we should talk those.

I have I have a question though. So there there's health risk researchers on these topics that could probably come here and have testimony that's diametrically opposed to yours or completely opposite. How how you know those a those how do you respond to that? There's a lot of research out there that's opposite of what you're saying. Well, that so that's really so that are you saying that your testimony counts and theirs would not? Yeah, I'm not saying that at all. Um I know not to

what I'm what the testimony that I'm providing is is a summary of what reputable health and scientific agencies have concluded. um because there's so much research in this area. There are certainly you know there are studies out there that um you know have have made the authors have made various conclusions that you know there this is suggestive of an association a connection between magnetic fields and cancer and other researchers who will say my study shows that there is no connection here between magnetic fields and cancer and the only way to appropriately and the like the only scientifically valid way of assessing a relationship between an exposure and an outcome is to look at the cumulative body of relevant research um where each study is kind of like one tiny piece of the puzzle and you look at them all to get the full picture. And so that's why I refer to and then recommend others look at the conclusions and reports of these health and scientific agencies where they put together panels of experts to dig into this research and come up with their findings and publish their reports and make them publicly available. And um so that's my my testimony.

One last question. And I'm not sure if it's for you or not, but the 500 KVF lines, right? Are they pushing 500 KV through them constantly or is it a max out depending or or does it fluctuate depending on the draw the draw on the system? I will definitely let an engineer take a full stab at that. But the certainly the the loading on the line, the current that's going through it, it's going to vary over time depending on the need of the

Okay. So, is your testimony today at an average load or max load or minimum load? So, I mean, um, when I look at data, I typically like to look at both average and peak. Average would give you an indication of what it would be like on any typical day of the year and then peak would give you a good idea of um what might you might expect for a few hours or days at the highest. Um you know so if there was if there was a let's say a new data center

downstream drawing constantly you know putting high demand on the system coming through millstone would that would that increase that would increase the KVF right the the amount of time that the that the that the voltage would remain at a higher level right if they were constantly on that draw yeah the voltage will remain the the same. It's it's yeah it's the current through the line but the lines also have a max current that they can you know operate at and so it wouldn't go beyond that.

Okay. You say you looked at data you're not talking about data on any 500 line of what's the average draw time frame or anything else. Did you look at that at any 500 lines that JCPNL owns of when it's minimum medium or a high load? Did you look at any of them in preparation of this application before the board? In in what capacity? Sorry. Well, to determine the EMF will will change based on whether it's low, medium or high. Right. It it could it the magnetic fields are um partially dependent on the current of the line.

Right. So the current line medium, low, high. Did you look at any data of this type of line? Is it that JCP knows that? Look, I looked at this and this part and and 90%'s low, fives medium, and five high. Did you look at any data like that? I I don't think so. I'm not I'm not entirely sure. Okay. What

I I think what I think we should cut to the chase here. Um, I think that when they said that they were bringing in a professional for for this type of issue to make sure that we are going to be cancer-free and so on and so forth, I think what we were looking for was someone that was going to give us information on this project with their footwork on it and their, you know, information. absolute not what they've read in a book pertaining to this

just pertaining to this situation. So I think I'm kind of like why are we having this conversation because I'm not trying to look up a Google information on here. I want to find out this project. What exactly how how much how much EF EFS is EMS coming out. Those are the things that we're looking for. So I'm not sure if this is the right professional for what we're expecting. Just my point of view.

So um Miss Dopart has um testified on this project in other municipalities. Um she is our EMF expert and the board uh is you know either can or does not have to accept her testimony and what she testified to generally about EMF on these types of public utility projects. Um this will be the EMF testimony that JCPNL provides for the CEC project. Um there will not be another EMF witness. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Um, come on, please. Maybe we should go to the public. I think we're done. I think Well, I I had one question.

Oh, sorry. Is there any distance where it comes to zero EMF on one of those lines? Is it 300 ft? Is it 200 feet? Is it 100 ft? It um it it it it likely would come to zero. The the challenge is if you're out there taking measurements of the line, when you get far enough away, it's just picking up electric and magnetic readings from other sources that are now closer. Well, I mean, if if we were in Missouri, we wouldn't be getting any. So like how

so so yes it it again it it's very dependent on the design and the line but um you know typically out by 100 ft or so you are into you know single 100 ft you're getting zero close to I yes back up we're just trying to get some idea on distance yep roughly thank you like uh M I'd like to get to the public because it's already 910

understood I would like to ask of the public though is stick to the stick to what you've heard. Stick to the facts. I know this please be concise and objective and not emotional uh because we got to get through a lot of people. We got to stay uh focused and I got to let the applicant respond to any of your questions. So, please, you know, there's a lot of people here. Let's let's try to be as fast. Not I don't want to rush, but at the same time, I don't want to be here till midnight either. and and let's not be repetitive, right? If you heard it, please don't ask again. What what we're going to do is then people can come up. They uh will have to give their name, address.

Yeah. I'll swear everyone in if you have if you're giving a statement or asking a question of any of the witnesses that testify. Okay. Yes. It's going to be impossible to stop separate them, you know. All right. All right. Who's first? Who's ever been first in the line? He sat closer. I uh I have two reports here and wait let me see what it is and then why don't you why don't you stand over there sir for a second mic okay let's let's let's do and now everyone I'm going to do the same please raise your right hand you swear from the following testimony about to give the whole truth nothing but the truth I do

please state your name spell please state your name spelling your last name give us your address and if you are one of the properties that has an easement for JCP PNL for ease for us. Um, David Egley, EGLI, live at 31 Backbone Hill Road. I did receive a letter um from the town though directly interface with the easement. I'm couple hundred feet away. Okay. So, do you want do you could give a statement, ask any questions? I see you have a letter here that you wrote, which is a good thing. It wasn't somebody else's. What do you want to do? I want to go through what I what I'm providing you. Just 10 of them.

Um I All right. Why don't we do this? Sir, if you would be wonderful and give a copy of this letter that he wrote. That's exactly what I'm to Mr. Nadel, the attorney. All right. So, uh I'm going to mark this as 01 and I'd like to have it submitted at That's what I'm doing right now. We'll mark as 01 letter from David Egley. We'll mark that as 01. And sir, you can start testifying. Um, couple couple things. Let's let's start off with the u the EMF. What they haven't

mentioned is we keep on talking about 500 KV and so forth. You got to talk about the current coming down the line. What I uh researched is that these lines are either um are a,000 me uh megawws uh and they have a me I don't know what you're what you're transmitting 1,000 megawws 1500 megawws the power flex density. Okay. And they know what that is. It's the density like so many watts per square meter. Okay. is going to be four to five times higher than the 230 KV we have coming down the line. Okay. Now I have personally taken a millig meter and I stood at the easement at 90 ft. It reads 10 uh mill uh milligs. And I challenge her on her units. Okay. She's saying 2,000 millie um G. Well, when you multiply 2,00 against millie, which means a thousand, you end up with two Gauss. And that's that's the wrong nomenclature. It should been 2.4 millig. And when I go through these uh the uh a lot of the uh studies that have done she's talked about um these u studies that have been done by the NIH uh the World Health Organization that's also in my um uh letter and um and again she's correct. There's been lots and lots of work. Nobody wants to put real numbers

down against that at so many feet. It's going to be this uh and and so forth. Okay. Now, as I said, I measured 10 mill at 90 ft. My house is at 400 ft. Measured it there is zero. Okay. So, there's that answers some of your questions. Okay. And typically the emanations fall off at the inverse square of the distance. So it does rapidly fall off. So if you go two feet, it's down four. It's down four four times. Okay. So as I said, it falls off very quickly. Now if anybody googled, you could do it right now. Google what is a safe distance to live from a 500 KV line.

All right. Sorry. Sir, you got to address the board, not the public.

Okay. I'm sorry. If you Google what is a safe distance to live from a 500 KV line, you're going to get numbers like 600 to a,000 ft. That's from the line. Now, they want to take and add this 500 KV and they guess they're going to keep the 230 KB. I don't know where the center line is on this n on this on this easement, but now you they've got to separate them physically. So now those wires are going to be closer to the endsides of the ement people and I' I've looked at um Google Earth and the some of these houses are pretty close. So I mean there's danger. So u okay. So going to what she had to say I I did a whole

dope part her name. Okay. Let's let's talk about but can you get can you get to the conclusions then because we got a lot of people still want to talk. So if you got we have we have your letter we have your letter.

Let me just let me just read some for her. Okay. First of all the biggest risk is leukemia. Okay. Sweden, Japan, the United States, it's leukemia, white blood cells go up. Um, as she said, who they did research? All of these, all everyone, the National Institute of Health, the EPA, PHO, Japan, Sweden, they all say it's leukemia. Okay. It's and it's all with children 15 years or less.

What is leukemia when they're living this close? What is leukemia? The risk the risk the risk of leukemia. Okay. Living near these wire this goes up. Um how close within? He's not an expert. Okay. Okay. Um, no. Within within 600 ft. We're talking um they're talking about um 9 uh 984. It was 984 ft.

Okay. And the voltage was 220 to 400 kilovolt power lines. They identified 325 cases of leukemia. 223 cases of central nervous system. Okay.

Okay. Um mortality mortality rate in children with leukemia was shown to be 370% higher than children not exposed to 1.2 gaps. That's why I challenged her um her numbers. 1.2 g uh one two gaps. And that was measured with a 230 kilov EM at at an ease of edge at an I said it was 10 uh mil uh mill.

So therefore anyone within 600,000 ft you're saying has this higher rate 20 times higher. Okay. Okay. Now and then Okay. They're trying to get the gaps the number that's being kicked around the world.

Well, sir, I don't want to get too deep in the weeds on this issue that you know, we're throwing a lot of numbers around that, you know, we we've heard we've heard you've heard the board's questionings of the witness and we understand what you're saying, but keep on referencing these reports and things. We don't have them and you interpreting them is not really evidentiary. We understand the concern. We understand the concern. We've introduced your exhibit, but we we got a lot of people here. It's not really evidential. It's mostly hearsay and opinion, but we get it. Okay. My bottom line is Thank you. You're liable. I I got a question.

When when the leukemia rates go up in Milstone, you're liable when you when you add these extra powers. So I have I have a I just have a question. Do you to for the applicant attorney there's you have more witnesses right the planner I believe uh in our environment probably won't finish tonight right no so we have this now does everybody have a copy of this yes we can review this closely and make sure that we absorb it for the next meeting okay because uh there's not going to be a vote discuss it as well on the next meeting

okay but this is very good and we I appreciate it and I'm sure the board appreciates you doing this work and bringing it forward. So, thank you. Yes. Thank you very much. Next person. Sir, please raise your right hand. You swear from the following testimony about to give is the whole truth, nothing but the truth. It is. Please say your name for record your last name and give all the information I mentioned before. James Waiter, W I A T E R 36 Backbone Hill Road and I have the easement on my property. Thank you, sir. Uh first question is um for statement you said that the uh other towns have given acceptance to this project and that's the clean energy corridor. Correct. That's correct.

Okay. Um but not all those projects there's six of them that I got off of your website or Jersey Central Power Light website that they're not all the same projects. Um, the only ones that have the 500 kilowatts is us Windsor Smithburg and the Smithburg Larabe collector. They're the only ones that have 500. Everything else is the 230 either just replacing it and updating it and that's it. So, we're not apples apples. Not everybody is agreeing to the same project. I'm going to ask Mr. Joseeppe to confirm if that is true. You got you got to come up.

Yeah. You can try sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh share the mic. He won't buy us. Yes. Yeah. So all the ones that were mentioned tonight have these same structures on them. 500 230 KB the Middle Sex Red Oak. That's this is all part of the clean energy corridor. I don't believe that was one of the ones that Mr. mentioned. You said it's going through um Middle Sex, Atlantic and other counties. So this is all part of the clean part. Well, you mentioned the ones that we got approval from the ones that have the same structures on it. Okay. The the overall CEC project is four counties.

Okay. Um and the next question I have is um since I have an easement, my driveway runs completely underneath power lines. I have landscaping. I have retaining walls. I have a fence. Um, how does your equipment get through my property and without damaging or how does that get rectified when you do damage it? I'm going to ask Mr. Morris to answer that question. What's your address again, sir? 36 back. 36 back. Thank you, sir.

Uh, we have our soil erosion plans which show how we get the access from every main road into into the and we would be avoiding your your improvements. Uh the the one that I saw on the plan there is an access there because they have a cell tower. As the road comes out, it actually goes onto private land. It's not an easement. So that's my neighbors and there's no easement right there. So you would have to come across my property to stay on easement or go across his property. We'd have we we would have we would stay within our easement. Okay. And now you're coming across my property, across my driveway and my landscaping.

I have I'd have to see see your specific thing and compare it to our soil erosion plans which show all our accesses and how that access is planned. Fair enough. I said I I got off your website. It doesn't have that. It should be You could also check the um our website. All the exhibits are online for us as well. Oh yeah. Well, from Oh, okay. Well, you said website. And I thought you were talking about Jason website and went on to the plans that they submitted and it shows the access road that uh Verizon uses, but the entrance is actually on private property. We're not using that access road, but they come across my property.

We're coming across your property. Anything in our easement, we have to we have to traverse your property. It's in our ement. But we would try to at best to avoid any of your improvements. It's impossible. My driveway literally comes around and goes right underneath the power line. Oh, you'll be driving for Well, the the the issue become it's the issue is going to become. Okay. And is whether your easement

Okay. A permits you to have your driveway there. Let's assume it does. Okay. B the language that allows JCPNL to transverse that easement. Okay. So, let's assume most of them say they could go on on the ease and bring anything they want. But obviously, if they damage anything, they're going to have to fix it. That's generally how it works on a very general issue. Yes. What I'm asking? Yes. Oh, anything. If we have to traverse your driveway and damage it, we would have to replace it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Next. Thomas 329. Say again.

Sir, please raise your right hand. You swear from the fine testimony about to give us hold you and tell them about the truth. Right there. Okay. Go on. Say again. Uh 329 Lost Road. First name Thomas Divine Lock 3901301. Thank you. All right. Now, my question is it's a construction question. Can I ask that now or should I wait? Yeah, ask the question maybe. Okay. Are you going to have a lay down area when you start building? Uh it's Mr. Morris.

Our principal lay down area is a freehole uh south of Smithburg substation. Uh during construction, what would happen is it's as I said it was in phases. So, we would drill the hole, bring the uh reinforcing cage from the layown area, transport it to the area of the hole, store it possibly for a day or two, drop it in the hole, bring in, pour the concrete. As the poles come in, the sections of the pole would come in just before erection because that's the way it's planned. So, the lay down area is in freehold. The pieces would be transported for each individual pole at that time. Okay. So, no staging area. The st the staging area is in freehold. Correct.

Okay. Now, you'll be using a hydraulic crane when it comes time for the erection. Uh most likely would be a hydraulic crane. Okay. So, I'm on well water. What I would ask is that you would use a diaper or containments uh underneath the hydraulic crane. Sure. In the event something would break and they they would they would take that in consideration. Yes. But they that they're going to take or will they do it? Well, we don't have a contractor yet. We can make that a requirement. Can we make that a requirement? Yeah. So, so you say it again, a diaper underneath the hydraulic diaper. It's a self-containment system for hydraulic. Right. All right. And there's one other question is that there's lead at the base of the uh towers, the old towers, I believe. There's possibly any any hazardous materials would have to be dealt with.

Okay. That's that's going to all be abated or whatever. Okay. And any soils that we're removing will be tested upon removal and uh brought to the appropriate site. Yeah. I think it'd be best, you know, top layer when you start to abate just whatever you got to go down 12 in. We're going down 12 in with the Yeah, for the You don't know how deep you're going to go for the uh the footing is going to be anywhere between 30 and 40t depending on what the soil conditions are. All right, that's Thank you. Thank you,

sir. Please raise your right hand. Swear from the fine testament about to give the whole truth but truth. I do. You see your name record spelling last name. Sir Frank Scato S O T T O 125 stage coach. Okay. Thank you Frank. Now my understanding is the foundations they're anywhere from 7 foot in diameter to 10 foot in diameter and anywhere ranging from what? 20 to 40 feet. 30 to 40. 30 to 40. How are they holding the material up top when they're dr they're going to be drilling? Correct. Yes.

Now, how are they are they putting in steel casing to secure the ground like from ground eroding? It it depends it depends on the uh soil conditions. Uh typically the ground does not erode around them. We we drill pump the cage in and pour concrete. Now sit down here for I've done it for I've been drilling for nine years. I've done foundations for PSG. The top 10 ft usually tries to collapse no matter where you drill. Then we put a casing in. So they put a casing. Now how are they installing that casing? I we haven't done the means and that's the contract.

If they're if they're vibing a casing in the ground, millstone's basically on sand. So sound travels through sand quickly. Mhm. Now, are they going to have laboratory monitors? They would have to. Okay. Now, I know from my experience that that sound travels, that vibration will travel through sand and uh how do I put this? the um when you're vibing casing, you can feel the vibration from a distance basically. Yes.

Now, what are those people are going to feel from that distance? I couldn't tell you because I don't have the parameters of each and every uh home with the soil types or anything. Okay. Okay. Do you need to make a recommendation though for Actually, I do have one other question. I have a tower that's across the street from my house. There's two eagles that are in it. What are we going to do about the eagles? There is an eagle's nest in the tower. Yes. That's all you need.

So, have you done an environmental council? Have you done environmental impacts? Oh, me public an environmental impact statement for We did. We didn't get to Amy's testimony yet. Our environmental consultant. Okay. When Amy comes and testify, you could ask her that question. Okay. She's not here in today then. She's probably not. It's already 9:40. Okay. The environ environmental commission asked some questions about TN study and stuff. So So we'll get that next environmental commission. Good. You could like you could Yeah, he could he could put that comment on the record. No, his comments in the record of what are you doing about the bald eagles. The question is he wants an answer and I think the environmental one's the one supposed to give the answer.

Okay. Well, if if you for some reason you don't make it to the next meeting, I promise you one of these board members is going to ask the exact same question. Okay. Can I Where's your What's your address? 125 States. I have There's two eagles every every day in the field across the street from my house. Is there a nest? There is a nest in the tower.

I don't know if they're ospreys, but there's two eagles that go to that tower. And uh that was my one thing. I know PS did ended up putting on another structure and moving their nest and having it for them to nest on. They have a camera to it and everything. Everyone can view it online. This nest? Uh no, not this one up in Somerset. Okay. Okay. Where we did work up in Somerset. They they ended up drilling another foundation. I can ask him please of course uh next to the tower and moving their nest to that area next. So Mr. Mr. Scott, can I ask a question? Go ahead.

It seems like you have a little experience with this type of work with in your professional experience have of drilling etc. Have you noticed, you know, significant amounts of wildlife being displaced by this type of construction? During the construction, they do move, but after the construction's over, they do come back in the area. But like there's areas like we worked in the Great Swamps, and it's a whole environmental thing in the Great Swamps. They matted the entire area out. They had to disinfect every mat that they put in and they put in thousands of mats. It took them over three months to lay mats throughout the whole great swamps and foundations were anywhere from 10t diameter to 14t diameter ranging in footage of 60 ft to 120 ft. And cages were built on site for them. and any uh wildlife or anything that would approach the area like in the great swamps they had turtles and if you approach a turtle they ended up stopping work at all at all cost

for the turtles. Salamanders were another area. They um had salamanders come out. They had environmentals on the job and they stopped all work because of salamanders. But nobody disturbed anything. All right. So, we can discuss more of this at the environmental. Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Please raise your right hand. Do you swear affirm the following testimony about to give the whole truth about the truth? I do. Please state your name through record last name. Give your address, sir.

Uh, Gerald Leonard, Len Ner, Dr. Creek Court. And the reason I'm standing here is I haven't heard anything about the e economic impact of putting these towers up here. I looked up did a quick literature search and and we take a property devaluation hit somewhere between three and and 15%. And it's because of the towers and it's this sort of talk you know fears of cancer crispy. Oh, you left that out of the story. You know, that that's been a thing is issue that's haunted, you know, these high voltage lines, the childhood leukemia connection. But because of this, the ugliness of the towers and just the whole change of, you know, a natural land into an urban place. It just why it just hits the thing. And I thought, gee, let's look at, you know, round numbers. These houses are million dollars a pop. You know, this is like taking a 100k hit. Hey, I know I bet a number of the people in this room, except for the guys that are from out of town, they're taking a 100k hit on their property value. And yeah, I'm not a realtor. You know, there's another realtor here, but this is a dilemma. So, what's in it for us? And we don't, you know, the irony of this thing is we don't get any of the benefit of this. The power goes through us. It's like a highway for North Jersey. It, you know, it doesn't. Yeah. There's substations. There's redundancy in network, but basically it's not going to help our our our local problems with the distribution.

Do you have a generator at your house? Yes. And and you go down the street I live on. Every other house has got, you know, a permanent one. I have one that's on wheels. You need it. How many times you lose power a year? Would you say Let him answer. The last time was um a round number. Two times. Okay. Thank you very much. We all obviously we all have the same problem, but I just wanted to hear from a witness.

Yeah. Well, it's like a joke, you know, is is I I personally feel helpless. You know, all these I'll talk to the board. These people with nice suits come in, they run the whole show. What about us towns people that get stepped on in the process? You know, it's our property value that goes these guys go to their cities. Thank you. Okay. And to answer your question, next one coming up, Ma'am, please raise your right hand. You swear affirm the following testimony about to give the whole truth, nothing but the truth. Please state your name for record. Spelling your last name. I live at 16 Hope Drive in Milstone.

Last name spelled, please. D E M I L L E. Thank you.

And I can attest I'm a licensed realer. The closer you are to these towers, the more uh you're going to lose value. anywhere to 5 to 20%. Not 16%, it's more like 20. Um, so that's how it went. But, uh, speaking to what happened today, um, I just want to make a statement first. I've lived in Mtown over 20 years. I love this town. I love the people in this town. But for 20 years, I've never heard anything about this project until I got a certified letter a couple of months ago. I find that reprehensible from JCPNL. You know that they never brought it to the people, never talked to us about it, and never let us know about it. I have an ease. I will not sign over an easement to you. um as opposed to EMF. You can say that there's studies that say that if it does increase the cancer risk, you can say it doesn't. But you're going from 230 to 500 watts kilowatts. You can Google it. You can go on AI and they will tell you there's going to be consequences to this. I want to know if JCPNL is going to for each property that's affected do an EMF modeling before and after for each property that will tell you the predicted magnetic and electric field levels at each house. I believe it should be done and I believe JCPNL should pay for it. We have a right to know what effect it's going to have on us and on our children and on our pets and anything else that lives on that property. So, I will speak with First Energy after tonight's hearing and we will let the board's professionals know if that can be accommodated. We don't have that answer tonight.

Okay. Um, number two, the noise concern. Uh, when you're going from 230 watts to 500 watts, there's going to be a significant noise, especially in the mono uh poles. Uh they will ha they have a specific noise that comes out uh during foggy weather and what rain what's gonna be done about that I'm gonna interrupt you could great come back up because I don't remember hearing any testimony about noise of existing as proposed yeah do do you have a witness that your engineer testifies as to is there is there noise that's going to you know

do you have witness This is that at the what's the sound there? What's the the new 500? Is there going to be a crackling? What do you have? Does one of your engineers could testify what sounds the new wires are going to make? General. I think Mr. Brownley. So I think that's because we I know there is going to be a sound going to be. I mean I have relatives in other states and they say it's very loud. Yeah, there is a noise associated with it. As she stated, New Jersey does have has does have a requirement that must be met to the edge of the rideway, which is 50 dB. Um, and so we are able to meet that state requirement.

Have you done a sound study? We have performed some analysis, some some Yeah. closer you are to the poll. Why Why don't you spit those noise studies to Mr. Shafi before the next meeting? So, I don't think they're noise studies. I think there were some just yeah just an analysis that we've done not well whatever whatever it is if you provide it to Mr. If it's not a study, if it's a Excel spreadsheet, whatever it is, and I got a question for you while you're up here,

and I apologize, man, for taking a couple seconds time. You we heard testimony before regarding how close some of these towers are to those six houses. Okay. And the engineer testified that he measured that from the center of the pole. Okay. And then I just keep on looking at the pictures in front of me. the wire. How far is the wire off the center of the pole? Uh about 25 feet. Okay. So that wire the it those houses are now 25 ft closer to the wire, right? Um it depends on the direction. So we are shifting the the poles.

Well, he he testified that there was a bunch of houses. One was like 111 ft or so and that was to the center. And if the wires are 20 ft off center, now we're at like 90 something. Correct? Yeah. And I want to correct what I said. Hopefully I said it swings 90 ft. Right. How far do they swing from that tw from where that wire is? How are they designed? How far is it 90 ft to the right? 90 like cuz I I don't want to misinterpret what I heard. You're here. Certainly. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I apologize if that was uh yeah, miscommunication. Yeah, it was me. That's why I want you to answer correctly.

So, the the wires at rest are 25 ft offset from the center. Um and then when a wind condition, uh an extreme wind case is what we designed these for. Um we see what the blowout is, how much the conductors would swing. And because of these long spans, they could sag up to 40 ft, which means they swing can can swing up to 40 ft. Now, this worst case scenario, 40T from 40T from Yeah. from 25. They're 25 centert.

Okay. And then and then per national electric safety code FD requirements, we need about 20 ft of clearance distance for it to be considered a safe. Um and so if you add another 20 to the 65, that's 85. So now we have about a 5ft buffer uh for like tree trees. Yeah. Tree growth. So that's how you get to that 90. All right. Thanks for cringing.

I I just have a Mr. Brown question while he's here. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for cutting into your time, but all of this I'm I'm and I'm sorry for asking questions if they sound silly, but I like to learn and I and I think every everybody should hear whatever everybody has to say and ask. So the other engineer testified that um you know the weak the weak point in the poles is in the line direction. Okay. Well, if things are swinging in the opposite direction across the poles and if the line direction of the poles is I think is the strong link and the other direction the horizontal direction across the poles is the weak link and you have a home that's in a potential drop zone for these thing these uh poles. What is the wind strength that could make something like that fall over?

So, um I guess to kind of address the first part of that question, these are eight-sided cylinder uh poles. So, the strength is consistent in in any direction. There's no weak necessarily weak direction. Um we do design these for an extreme wind case uh up to 102 miles per hour. Um, so they are pretty resilient um when it comes to that. Okay.

So they're considered hurricane rated and to tornado rated because I've lived in I've lived through some hurricane Sandy and we had significant high winds that got up to 90 some miles an hour. What is the odds of one of those towers falling? I mean, because you have houses that are 113 ft away and they're 186 ft, 190 ft tall. I mean, would you want to be living in that house if those winds came through? You don't have to answer the question. I mean, that's why we that's why we designed such a high wind to help with that safety.

I mean, because out out west, they have special towers because they have the tornadoes, they have everything else. I mean, are we getting those types of towers here or is it something lower level? Uh, not wouldn't say lower level. It obviously weather conditions are different here than than out west. And so that is they are designed differently than other regions, but we can get a case here. We have tornadoes here. We had one not too long ago in Jackson that ripped through Jackson to

I mean, we have to be concerned about that. You're putting these towers that are 100 ft away from houses 150 and these are 186 196 ft tall things. And you can say all you want that it might fall this way, but you never know. It depends on the wind. It depends on the physics of which way that tower is going to fall. The Yeah. to to kind of what was testified earlier. Um the wires are in tension along the rideway and so in order if if the pole is to fall, they're being pulled along the rideway and so it pretty confidently could say that's the direction they're going to fall.

Wires are only as taut as they are. It's not going to hold them. I mean, how much does a tower weigh? Uh that range is pretty significant. It depends on the physics. If you if you have something falling, you have wind pushing, unless those wires are cables that are like this big, it's going to fall where it wants to fall where the wind's pushing it. Well, hold on a second. What you're you're the professional. What's your opinion on her question? Will it what? 50% of chance, 60% of chance it will fall only within the lines. What is your professional?

I mean I mean let the question percentages. Okay. I mean, you know, can you let him answer the question physics? Okay. I'm just saying what is the percentage that the professional answer that's we got other people we have that want to come up. You don't know the percentages. Yeah. I can't say like I can't give you don't have that number. Yeah. Okay. That's that's your answer. You don't have that number. Okay. Uh Miss U, I do have one question for you before you sit down. Uh you said you were here during Sandy. Yeah, I was here. How long were you out of power? I was out of power a week. One full week. One full week. And then it came back and we had the snowstorm and I was out of power another week. Another week. So, three full weeks. You're

two weeks. Two full weeks. Thank you. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Next. Greg, did you say there will be a noise testimony or a study submitted? That's what Yeah, that's what we said. Were you sleeping? Well, we don't have any. We can't hear on this. They can't we can't hear on this. Sir, please. Everyone, please. Please, sir, please raise your right hand. Do you swear affirm the following testimony about to give is the whole truth, nothing but the truth? Please say your name for the record spelling last.

Christopher Deal, Die Ehl, uh 39 Backbone Hill Road. Um I have an easement with proposed tower. Uh my first question is in relevation to the 200 ft Uh I'm on the Qua going through uh you know South Jersey. So stage coach is probably 150 ft elevation lower than where the tower is on my my house. Like I'm on one of the higher points in Milstone. Um I have I have flyovers all the time. I have the refuelers flying over. Uh we're in a a section for Wall Airport. Today like a little jet flew right over the the tower. Um, for that 200 ft, is that based off of sea level or is that based off of ground level? Like, are they going to have to put a blinking light on my tower because we're so much higher up?

Good question. Good question. None of the other towns have Is there lights on the tower you have now? Is there Is there a light on the tower? Okay. Yeah, I can answer that. Please. So, why don't you you want Why don't you sit? Please least let him be a little comfortable. Okay.

Uh so that is based off of the ground level, not the sea level. Um and it is uh ran through we do submit all locations through an FA notification tool that they have online. Uh it evaluates a variety of things, height, location, um you know, where the where the wires go. And uh so we've submitted all the structures for this project, the the proposed ones, and none have come back that need um to be filed with the FA. So there will not needs to no lighting, okay, on the new on the new structures. Um and and we Yeah. And the FA doesn't even need us to to file any with them.

Okay. And then um and when the work's being completed, um like I've had people on my property numerous times and unmarked vehicles. I've asked for a COI certificate of insurance. Um I' I've not given any information. And I Greg actually did my closing and I didn't get any information on these. I knew he looked familiar,

but like I' I've never received any information. Like basically you guys like have a full house that you refuse to leave and you know it's I I knew I did buy the property knowing it, but I have no book of rights, nothing like as a as a customer. I mean as as a as a free as a free landlord basically. Is there a question? Yeah, but like could I get a copy of my easement with the with what JCPNL or First Energy has? And just like you've got a copy of these. I sent it to you. Very unraw. It's a very small document that was probably filed written many many years ago.

Yeah. And then um and then just I' I've asked repeatedly to be told if someone's going to be on my property and I've never received any notification like you I have my dog outside and all a sudden there's four random strangers. What's the rules on that day? They they don't have to generally it's not a it's not like a landlord tenant where you have to give 24 hours notice. It's just they have the right to go through their reason. But shouldn't they at least have identification? Well, they should. Is that a law though? Well, if he doesn't give if he doesn't say who he is, you're going to call the cops on. Okay. Well, then the state police will take forever to get there. But that's all that's my question.

I have one question for you. Do you have a house generator? No. No. Have you lost power, though? Um, I've only been there for three years, right? So, all right. Just ask. Thank you. Good seeing you again. Mr. Bella, I think A7 has copies of all of the easements. So, if anybody else would like your copy of, you should be able to look online under a exhibit A7. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you. Please raise your hand. Swear affirm the following testimony about gives the whole truth about the truth. Yes. Please state your name for the record spelling your last name. Alan Gold, G. Address is 48 Cars Tavern Road.

Allen. Allen. A L. I didn't get the address up. I'm sorry. 48 Cars C A R RS C T C T C T C T C T C T C T C T C T C T C Road. Thank you. Um, two points that I'd like to make. Somebody raised the question of noise. I play golf at uh Charleston Springs. When I walk under those power lines in the summer when the air conditioning is running, it is extremely loud. And that's was it 200 KVH? 230 230 K30. So I would be concerned about the higher voltage.

And the other point uh I'm concerned about is again playing golf at Milstone Township, the eighth hole on the south course. They took down all the trees along the fairway for about probably close to 200 yards. And I was told it was the power company because that hole, the trees were between the edge of that property and the power lines. I don't know if the power company took them down, but that's what they told me. This is many years ago. So, are they going to be taking down all kinds of trees? I mean, this is trees are part of what they're taking over 3,000. That's00.

And I don't see what the reason was why they took down those trees. They weren't big enough to fit the power. I think the number is 3,400 some odd trees. It's all in there. It's all in there. So, to me, there's no rhyme or reason why they even taken down. Sorry. Is that um Can the rest of the public find that information? Where is it located? The trees. The number you just came up with. It was 34. Uh so, I I I just want to step in here before we have misinformation and let's let's make sure we have the numbers right. So, our environmental consultant has not testified yet. We didn't even get into tree clearing yet. So, that number is wrong. Um, who's clearing the trees? And Miss Jones will clarify

for the sake of this part. Yes. You know, what's the number? So, the number is 2060. Do I have that? 2060. Okay. Sir, again, just I mentioned about the eagle one. When you come when the lady testifies, you can then ask questions about the tree removal and and we will we will fully testify about the trees when Miss Jones testifies it at the next day. Under 2060 that you're claiming today, what is the caliber size and does is there trees that are smaller than those calipers that the minimum caliber sizes included in that?

Yeah. And so m we will get into all of that when Miss Jones testifies. I don't think it's fair for us to start discussing it before she puts her. Miss Jo, you heard the question, so you'll address it. Okay. Write the write the note down. We'll take care. We'll have that also address. Yes, we've already addressed that for some information. Thank you. And please raise your right hand. You swear from the following testimony about to give us the whole truth about the truth. Yes, sir. Please state your name for the record spelling your last name. Ma'am. Tara Tari. T R I M A R C H E 7 Doctor's Creek Court lot 45 actually block 45 1108.

Um I actually have a whole bunch of random questions but uh you talk about this like it's a done deal. Is this a done deal?

No. All right. Because you know this little chatter that people say this is a done deal. Uh and then when you you're asking questions you're talking like about construction and all this stuff. So, I just want to understand that um I would like to know specifically what type of tower it will be behind my house. Uh as I am a local realtor and I interviewed um several local realtors um that have had properties, including myself, who have had properties um that have been seriously affected by um by the wires behind their house, the the the towers. Um and it's been significant. Uh some of them on carriageway, some of them um on Ecoin, Ecoin Run. Um

you say affected. What do you mean by affected? affected like where people didn't want to the buyer stigma um of just coming into Milstone just buying into a rural community buying a um a million5 house that or a house that should be a million5 but they can't get that number because they're going under those high tension wires or and now these wires are now going to get a lot bigger. Um, I bring up the ecoin run uh uh uh tension wires and the reason is because that particular those particular lines you have to go under them every day. So there's been several houses on that particular street that were in that situation where they couldn't get their their their price and they had to sell it significantly lower.

When you say effective, weren't the weren't the lines there before the houses were built? Yes. Well, you know what? I don't I don't Well, resale value. Resale value. So beautiful homes but retail value but now you put bigger bigger that's a different story that are now making a substantial amount of more noise. All right let's get to your question specifically. Okay. Uh did you get her address? Do you know what tower is going next next to our property? Um it would be behind me. It probably the one that's next to eight uh Tim Peddler and it runs Yeah. So we can we can we can look into that. Well, she's asking a question. You know, could you find She's up here. You know, what tower is going behind her?

We'll have Mr. Morris find it on this Iceland. Okay. Because I'm not looking to stay in those forever. I'm looking to leave with like my I have a two-year plan. I want to get out of here. However, you know, I want to go to Florida. I want to do that whole thing. My kids are my kids are now grown up. But the issue is now we have to disclose it. Yep. Now we have to disclose the fact that now there's there's a proposal for this particular project. And when you look at my beautiful great big home that should be a million5 now you you see the the tower behind my house only in the winter you don't see it and I'm Jerry uh but now if you make that tower x amount larger 40 50 60 ft larger now it's it's now it's an eyesaw.

Okay. So and I just wanted everybody to know that that's how it's going to look. Hopefully they're going to give me an answer in two seconds what they're proposing. All right. And then the other thing is um you talk about they talk about improvements that these are going to make improvements. I want to know what's in it for me, what's in it for my community, and what's in it for us. Okay? Because we live in this rural community. People come here because of what they what they get. Okay? They're not looking to buy in this community to be back in the suburbs. And you know, you can't compare us to East Windsor. Okay? That's you know, East Windsor. You know, that's a you know, that's everybody's connected and you know, you have but you know, improvements. What improvements?

There was some testimony last meeting from Mr. Hussea, but I think we should have him again. Maybe he can answer some of these questions. Uh he will he be available next meeting. Where's he where are you from? Casey or something? Mr. Josemp is from Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh. That's where we're candidates. I don't care about Pittsburgh. No, but he's the one that can answer your question. I don't I don't want Mr. Josempa to have to repeat all of his direct testimony. Um, you know, if you have specific questions about the project benefits, you can quickly summarize. Let's while he's the qu the question and I'm not going to ask the question what's benefit to you, but what's the benefit to the Milstone?

When I say me, I mean us. Yeah. Okay. I wasn't I'm just joking. What's the b I forget what the testimony was. was the benefit to the Millstone community for this improvement. Sure. We can have Mr. Josempa uh explain that again. Yes, we'll have him come. He's not here, right? No, he's here. Oh, you're there. Oh, okay. Real quick, that one question how system operates. You got to speak into the mic. No one can hear you. structure. I got a little bit of a cold, too. Lean into the mic and get everyone second.

So, so again understanding how the electric system operates. So, I understand that there's been a lot of outages in this area, but most of that as you had already discussed is really due to the distribution system, not the transmission system. However, you know, the outages that occur on the distribution system affect hundreds, maybe thousands of customers, but outages on the transmission system can spread to tens of thousands or millions of customers. And we've had those kind of incidents in the past. So, what happens here is because the the transmission system feeds into what we call our subtransmission system, which is the 34.5 KV system, and then also then that feeds into the distribution sub.

Get to the point. So, So because it is all connected in order to provide reliable and resilient service the transmission system needs to have the sufficient reliability to make sure that the systems under it can be supported. So this is going to add that additional resilience and reliability to the overlaying system.

Okay. All right. With that with that said okay so I'm asking about improvements. Okay. I know that you can ask me the question that you've asked everybody else. When was the last time I lost power? And that was when we had the snowstorm, okay? And we lost it for 4 hours. Um, somebody can hit like I live off of stage coach and Stillhouse. Okay. When somebody hits a pole in Jackson or a or a squirrel gets fried on a telephone line in Jackson, my power goes out. It's so ridiculous how my powers out but two door like backbone all of their lights are on

and you know like all right so is that going to improve like is though are those that's your question will will that be improved can we get that answer are you going to improve these when when something a few miles away happens will this all these new lines improve that problem somebody gets a telephone call somebody squirrels running across and uh gets fried in a transformer on a telephone pole.

So the the distribution system is laid out very differently than the transmission system. So the distribution is typically a lot of radial circuits that emanate from a substation and they're kind of like uh interlaced, right? So and there's three phases to all the distribution circuits just like there's three phases to the transmission system. So sometimes a person can lose power on one side of the street that might be connected to say aphase and the other side of the street is connected to Bphase. Their light would still be on. And depending on how the circuit runs to your house, I'm guessing it comes from Jackson because it happens in Jackson. It affects you. So it depends on how the distribution circuits are laid out.

Right. But so will this new lines help that problem? That is a distribution problem, not a fan problem. So it's not the answer is no. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. All right. Let's get to the more important the other I have a Mr. Horsepa. I I'd like to make just something on not for Mr. So I did a I did a little members of the public. Again, I know it's late. We're going to pretty much end and probably after this lady finishes. So, you know, let's we'll be quiet so we can get

I just want to say that I did I just did a little map search of how many of these structures we're in Freehold, Roosevelt and East Windsor and the type and the topographical. So, in Freehold it was one. Okay. In East Windsor, it looks like 11. 11 going straight across all kinds of farmland. And in Roosevelt, it's three. How many in Milstone? 40 something. 44. We reduced it to 39. 39. We said earlier was 44.

Oh, yeah. Way more Jackson. So that's what that's I could see why the approach. Did you check please? I didn't count Jackson. Okay. And how did you check how? No, but I'm just saying the connection points that you want between Smithburg and and East Windsor. That's how much was that's how many towers are in there. Freehold one. East Windsor 11. And free Freehold was way more than one. It crosses the road right into the Smithburg. There's more than one structure, but

we're only going to the Smithburg switching station, right? It's right across the right across. Right. The substation itself though has other structures being installed as part of the substation. Anyway, you guys are going to come back with that information, the accurate information the next meeting, right? We need to verify it. Yes. Okay. Now, let's get to the your your first question. Do you know what the size pole is going to be behind behind their house based on your proposal? Well, it's not exactly behind her house. It's the exact same place as the pole that's there now. And it's 193 ft. And what's it today? Uh I believe that what do you have there, Craig? What structure is it? It's um 45.

It's 45. Structure number 45. Oh, okay. So, you said 45. Is it 128? 128. 128. now. Yep. Right. And you're going to go up to what? 193. 193. How are we going to disguise that for green paint? Cuz right now, like, you know, the way the way my neighbor stepped it out, it's thousand. It's 1,000 ft behind the house. But this thing is just It's just going to be this great big eyes. You understand to keep them out. We understand. How many more people? Uh, okay. How many more if you see if I raise the hands? How many more people want to say something?

All right. I got one these four who are raising their hands and then we'll we'll call it. Okay. And please try to take a couple minutes. Thank you. Sir, please raise your right hand. Swear affirm the fine testimony to give the whole doubt about the truth. Say your name for the record. Give us your address. Sir, Dan Murphy, 38 carriage away. Members of the public, we're going to end the meeting at 6 seconds. If you pee, continue to talk. Please. Go ahead. Murphy. I didn't I didn't get his address. I apologize. We carriageway. Thank you. How many footings 40 ft deep go on each tower? And has there been an impact study on the aquifer and on the wells? You're going 40 ft down. How many footings are you putting per tower?

There was one there's one foundation per new structure. And there's been any study on the water, the aquifer. They're putting these so close to the well. This is all wells. This is not city water. Has there been any study on that?

No, there has not. Well, is cased to at least 100 ft. That's what the the New Jersey state D requires. 100 foot of casing before you even have an opening. Has there been any study? No. I think with the EMFs you testified that it really depends on the layout of the lines and in the last meeting you testified that this layout is unique and has not been done in New Jersey. So what type of study has been done with this unique layout of the wires of a 500 and a 230 in this layout you regarding EMF EMFs? I think she testified she did not do anything.

Okay. If I'm wrong with that on this project, I don't think she's done. Oh, yeah. We don't need to get personal. That's correct. On on this project, I was not my testimony, but I think the unique part was the tower structure, which would not necessar. Next question. I think the the testimony last time was the layout of the wires next to each other. It's done all the time. It's done all the time. That was the testimony last time by one of the professionals and we go back whether or not she didn't do a study. It is what it is.

I think Mr. Josempic testified last time that this was part of Phil Murphy's executive order. Yes, he did. What executive order is this on? I thought it was just a grant, wasn't it? No, you said executive order last year. An executive order by Phil Murphy. Yep. What is the exact executive order? And what year was it?

Actually, I do not have my testimony in front of me tonight. Um, but the executive order directed the BPU and I can't remember to do uh to create an energy master plan. That was what the executive order was. I just I don't remember what the details. No executive order for this infrastructure project. I did not testify to that. No, I I said there was an executive order from Governor Murphy directing the DPU and I can't remember what the other organization was to do an energy master plan for the state of New Jersey which then led to this project. I believe your quote was, "This project is under an executive order from Phil Murphy." And I think the people on this

I agree with you and I think you also said it had to do with the windmills. It tied into the windmill windmills part of the plan for transmission. And then we immediately the windmills were not here and then the windmills were knocked out. Then you said it's a transmission line from East Windsor to Smithburg.

But you started with the whole thing with an executive order windmills that were going to power this transmission line. Correct. and it was going to go to North Jersey, South Jersey, reverse the ways, the whole thing. But then the windmills, which we figured out were put on hold and probably will not happen because that's more expensive to maintain than than the old existing towers that you have now. Um, but to get to the point, I really don't understand, no one has said anything about the uh EMFs from putting a 500 KV underground. Is there a deduction EMF release or compared to the overhead? Okay. Um, you want to bring the system up to date. Well, to me, bring it up to date like any other town, city across the country, everything's going underground. So, I don't understand that. I understand you guys want the easy path. The easy path is to just retro an old system and make it new. But that doesn't benefit. And we're going to be putting the freight for that, which we will as you admit it the last time. We're going to pay for that. So, we're going to pay for that improvement and then take a hit on our houses.

You guys took the easy path. That doesn't help out the residents. So, I don't understand why no one has done any other study besides let's just use the old system and retro it new. I think we talked about that last time and they said it was expensive to dig the holes.

I I don't understand how it could be expensive when we live in sand and clay. You're in a wide open 180 foot buffer that's clear open. Manalapin is going right now going through a transition of uh um natural gas pipelines from Texas all the way through the town of Manalapin. Two-ft pipes are being dug underground. There's no problem with them putting a pipe underground. I don't understand why we can't put a cable in an open field that's right there. You guys are taking the easy path. The easy path is to put up those ugly towers at our expense and we take the hit on it. We're an environmentally sensitive community. Aesthetically,

aesthetically, I will, but I'm just trying to say to you guys, you're telling us all these things, but no one has ever looked into any of these other items. You guys took the easy path, but you did. Okay. So let let's think outside the box here and help the everyone that's going to take a hit in the right away and their houses are going to devalue because of the aesthetics of this project. It's not a benefit. It's a hit on these people and you guys are just taking the easy path. Stop. Stop. Stop. So is there an answer to his point? Is there a reply? Is there a reply to his comment? I I didn't hear a question. So, why did we only choose this path to retro those?

Can we consider doing this project underground? I I can tell you based on my experience that if we put the line underground through Millstone, it's a benefit to Millstone and Millstone will have to pay the difference between the overhead construction and the underground construction. But you're already using a sludge fund for a for a project that is null and void now.

So, you already have that sludge fund. So, if we have to pay for the improvement, then who's going to compensate us back for the loss in our real estate? It can't be one way. You can't have us pay for it because we get a gain and our our our real estate will not devalue, but we got to pay for it to save our real estate. Well, if you know our real estate's going to devalue, you should be compensating us back. Yeah. Okay. He can't answer that, but he's just the engineer. Okay. I'm concerned about the statement he just made that we're going to have to pay for it as the engineer. I mean that statement I don't know what he means that we're going to have to pay for it

more or less because they're trenching and like so when I trenched for gas because I wanted gas on my property and it was 450 ft from the road. I had to pay for 450 ft of trench. My point to that is he's the engineer. Yeah. He's not JCP and it's not the attorneys. No, but how does how does he know that? We're now liable for that. Well, we're we're not liable for anything. Okay. So, let's just move to the next one. I said based on my experience. Yeah, that's fine. It's

my question then is why do why would Milstone have to pay for it if you're still is it more expensive to trench underground than to use all of these galvanized steel 192 foot 40ft footings? You know it's just it's just as I mentioned yes it is more expensive. Do we have do you have a budget of what's the differential?

We have not done any estimates to determine what that is but typically we see five to 10 times the increase in cost to go underground with transmission. Mr. that. But what are some of the also negative uh parts of going underground versus overhead? Well, I think uh from an environmental perspective, you know, we have to dig a pretty large trench to put these kind of lines underground. So, and that would be a trench all the way from one end of Milstone to the other. Six months.

So, I mean, you'd have a six mile trench probably I don't know 10 feet wide. Um, pretty deep. I'm not sure exactly how deep. Probably 20 some feet deep. And then we'd have to lay the cables in there. Plus, you'd have to have the construction equipment alongside for another, you know, 20 ft or so to do all that work. And that gets covered in concrete. And when it's all said and done, yes, it looks good, but while it's going on, it's pretty devastating to the environment because it's a continuous trench. And what happens if there's an issue underground? Do you have to go back in there and dig it back up and figure out what the issue is and then have to cause more disturbance?

Well, the the thing about an overhead line is when something goes wrong, it's easier for us to find because we can see it. If something goes wrong on an underground line, we can't find that. And then when we do find it, we have to dig all that up and replace all that equipment and then fill that all back in. So, what could go wrong in underground as an engineer? What what could go wrong underground? Exposed to weather or hidden underground. I would think exposed to the elements of weather would be more detrimental to the system than something that's buried out of the weather.

Well, because the the cables have a coating on them to protect them. So, that epoxy eventually breaks down and then it also does get exposed for things like a lightning strike to travel underground and cause that cable to fail. And we do our best to protect against that, but that still occurs. So, it doesn't eliminate all the problems. it does make them more complicated to fix and it takes much longer for us to do those kind of repairs as well. So would the environmental disturbance be greater if we went underground as compared to the project that's being presented to the board this evening?

I can't in my estimation it would be because you'd have this big trench for six miles in a current easement right in an easement. There's already an easement there. We're not taking down 22,000 trees. 22,000. You're in clay and sand and wires going underground all over the country.

Not a natural gas line is being run from Texas through Malpa now underground through swamp through everything. Environmental studies impact have been done and it was it's gone. It's going on right now. drive through an hour and you'll see it go on through developments and they clean it back up. You don't even know it's there. Do you Mr. uh You have any more any more questions, Mr. Murphy? Can we We got to move it along cuz we got still a few more people to uh are these towers and lines expandable for the future? Can you add more lines to it whenever you feel like it? If you need more power and and you need to go up in voltage,

they are designed for double five double circuit 500 KV. Um, but currently, you know, there's 230 KV and 500 KV. Five more data centers and we're going to put another 500 line and we'll never even know about it. So, they are designed to to be able to support another 500 KV structure. Sorry, replace it would replace the 230. Yeah, they would replace only two circuits. They could replace a 230 with a 500. These wires, you say swing. Are they swinging above the FAA limit? No. No, they're not going higher.

Homes that are next to the lines, the towers are not the only homes that are affected. If you're not near the tower and you're further away, a lot of these current towers are at the tree lines. Now, you put 40 feet on top of these and people who were never even near towers. It's like looking at King Da from Great Adventure, six miles through Milstone.

So, this is not a just because we got letters effect. This affects the entire Milstone community. You're driving through and you see these towers shooting up through Milstone. The entire environmental millstone is gone. We allowed this. This entire application is disingenuous. People's testimony has changed. the the environmental is just reading from a book and from reports. It is completely disingenuous. The entire project from the beginning was described as the windmill project. Then it was transformed to redundancy and now we hear they're going to take down all these lines and we could reroute it right now. So we already have redundancy in the town. They said they could rerun the line so nobody loses power. the entire project keeps changing as they go along. Mr. Hazen came in last first meeting and said there's no benefit to Milstone.

Now when you ask them, he couldn't even say that he's trying to change that language again until you drill down into everything. This entire application is disingenuous. Thank Thank you, Mr. Murphy. Thank you, Mr. Murphy. Appreciate it, Mr. All right, we had two more people I believe. Seeing none. All right, one more person and then you come. One more person. I someone he in the back was was you come up you the paper. We It's almost 10:30. We got to I just can I just clarify one one point? I apologize. Hold on a second.

Can I just want to clarify one point that the statements that Mr. Joseeppto's testimony uh conflicts with his testimony at the prior hearing that we do not agree with that. Understood. Sir, please raise your right hand. Swear from the following testimony about to give the whole truth, nothing but the truth. I do. Please state your name for the record. Your last name.

Bruce Wolf 125 Backbone Hill Road. Um I was here at the first meeting and um I heard very similar comments uh that we just talked about. So I kind of agree what he said and I was making some changes. So, but um I would like to say that as a longtime resident, 43 years on Backbone Hill Road Shade Tree Committee really believe in the environment, really stepped up to the plate to become a good uh citizen and really follow the rules in Milstone and I love the township. I will tell you that I don't see anything everything that they're looking to do Jersey Power and Light is at our detriment. You've got school buses up and down on Backbone Hill Road. It's a major thoroughfare. Large equipment. Um it's just a recipe for disaster. Property values really I will say a will tank these dinosaurs to look at these gigantic towers. I mean it's just a disgrace in today's world and technology about running under you know underground gas. I think there's a lot of things again looking for the easy way the right way. Um, it's an easy way to to make um a throughway through our township, but everybody that lives here, and I would say the same thing, would you want to live with a tower like that? People who bought into these townships into Milstone and have a right away, they're looking at a smaller tower line,

not 192 ft. So, you really take everything out of their out of their control, which I find it really hard to believe that they would even consider this. So, as a board member, I would certainly uh whatever we can do to push it to the next level and then we'll go take a grassroots meeting and go meeting with the board of public utilities. I would never give them an opportunity to put this in like that. It's a disgrace really. And I thank you for you guys, you know, listen. Last last gentleman right here and then we're calling it for the meeting. Sir, please raise your right hand. I just swear from the divine testimony. You're about to give us the whole truth, nothing but truth.

Please state a name record. Spell your last name. Give your address, sir. Name is William Frederick's. F R E D E R I C Ks 78 Stage Coach Road. Um I have one of these towers on my property. Um I am a tree farmer state of New Jersey and um I have a couple questions on the design of this. You say that the um the lattice towers are going to be taken down. This whole thing is going to be defunct for a little while you're working on this. Is that correct? And then you're going to put the other towers up. Is that correct? Yeah, there that's correct. There's there's

So my question is is why is that tower being moved 20 ft closer, 12 feet closer to my side of the property? I'm going to lose over an acre of of hardwood. Okay. and I am a tree farmer, okay, with the state of New Jersey. And we do things to try to maintain the woods in this area, especially hardwoods. And uh why can we not put the tower right in the existing spot of the existing tower?

As I as I testified to earlier, so these are shifted to be in the center of the rideway. So they're shifted 15 ft um from where they are now from uh I guess laterally in in the rideway they are shifted another to to be offset from the existing structure to not to not interfere with the exist correct yeah to not interfere with the existing foundations of those of those existing so there's foundation that is under that tower right now correct cement all underneath there it depends on the pillars on all four points it depends on the structure type But there is a foundation under each one of those tower legs.

Yeah, because I remember them for mobile cement when I was a kid watching them put it up uh originally. Uh sir, when you say you're losing an acre of hardwood, what do you mean by that? Well, they're going to be cutting along my property line all the way along here and into the next panel. I own all this property along here and they're going to be cutting into the woods and we're moving moving. If you add that strip, it's an acre. It's not one. So, it's about an acre of hardwood. Understood. Or even more. Do you farm those trees there? I'm sorry. Do you farm those trees there?

Yes. Well, we we sell firewood. We maintain the uh the uh animals in the area by building up the bounds. Whatever brush comes down, we pile it up. We try to maintain and conserve the area for Milstone. Thank you, sir. And uh like I said, you're moving it to my property. You've taken away an acre of hardwood. On the other side, you got Mammoth County Park. Not a single tree is going to be touched over on that side. I have a I have a major problem with that.

Yeah. So, as as I as I stated before, it is shifted to the be now in the in the center of the rideway. And so as we take into consideration the blowout of the wires, the the offset of the wires and the clearance values, that's how we come up with the required amount that they are not in the center right now. That's correct. So in other words, all the towers are shifted north. All these lines are going in to the south side. That's Yeah, that's correct. So now the towers are closer to the north side is what you're telling me. The existing the existing Not tomorrow. Okay.

Do we have a um you want to have a question then to have for them to look at based on his I mean I I think you know I think that's the whole thing about just putting in the same spot and not individually looking at at every site. Same thing we discussed before. No problem. Keep it in the same spot, you know. But uh I can't see it being uh not in the bill right now. It doesn't seem like that. But um that's about all. Thank you, Mr. Fred. Appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Listen, it's it's 10:30. We all have jobs tomorrow, unfortunately. Uh so we have to move this to next meeting. Danielle, can you tell us? Well, I'm going to I'm going to tell you. Sorry. That's why I ran over there. All right. Uh are your witnesses available May 27th?

Keep that one. We have a cell We have a cell tower and another application on in April. It was May 27th. Yes. Fourth Monday. Fourth Wednesday. Christine, everybody wait. I'm good. What's the date? Oh, environmental 27th. May 27th.

She doesn't need members of public. We're going to announce when the next next meeting is. So, I don't know why you're leaving. That that works. All right. Members of the public, members of the public, this application has been carried to May 27th at 7:30 p.m. in these chambers. Okay. This is your notice. All you people who got have cell towers on your property that got certified mail, you will not get it again. This is your notice. May 27th at 7:30 p.m. Um, we will not discuss it at the April meeting, so you don't have to worry about coming. Okay. Uh, I think we need an extension with time counsel. Is that acceptable to you? Yes, we'll send that in. Thank you.

All right. Do we have any other comments? Motion to adjurnn. Meet now. My wife was going to first second.