Finance Committee - Regular Meeting

Like to call to order a meeting in the middle our finance committee Thursday, March through 7PM in a small conference room town hall in Dickinson Avenue, board recording on MKM. First item on the agenda, what do you see?

Do I to the flag

Next item on the agenda, can I get a motion to approve the minutes from 03/16/2026? Okay.

You don't take it.

So moved. The second? Second. Any discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor? Aye. Motion passes unanimously.

Excuse me again.

Yep. Next

item in agenda, we're gonna have a discussion on fiscal twenty seven budget with term account manager.

Thank you, mister chair. I was asked by one of the committee members if we can just kind of briefly review how people, committee members, citizens can view the quote unquote cherry sheets. It's actually the official, notification from the states to the towns and communities of Massachusetts of what their proposed state aid and state assessments are going to be. People have asked why do they call them cherry sheets, and I believe it's because they used to be pink back when they were on paper. So I know there's, some people who have taken interest in this issue and now are questioning the littlest things, and that's a good thing.

So if anyone wanted to know why, that's what I was informed. So with that being said, anyone can go to mass.gov. It's probably better to type in a Google search bar, Massachusetts division of local services. It will bring you to this website on mass.gov. It'll say it right at the top, division of local services, and John, thank you for bringing your projector. It's helpful than printing off paper and giving out copies. Mhmm. Show it live. So you scroll down, halfway down, and then it'll say F Y 27 Cherry Street estimates. You you'd click click on municipal.

We are municipal, and then it'll bring you a a drop down box, and you'll select Middleborough.

And

then hit submit. Yep. And this will bring us to 2027. That's great. I'll give it that. You could select any fiscal year. That's important to understand to go back, and you do it by this, and you there's a drop down box, and you can pick any year. Can you just bring up '26, John? Sure. And hit submit.

Yep. So this is last year's cherry sheet, and, you know, a lot of people don't understand. So if you look at there's different columns, vertical columns, it's the gross it's the estimate for the previous year, what you actually got, then we're looking at '26. We're looking at '26. '25 is shown. What was the final number in '25? The first column after '25, it's the title of it's f y '26 governor's local aid proposal. That comes out in January, and that's your building block. This is the number you start with. It's broken down, and you can go down all the way to the bottom.

Keep one more little smidge down. So last year's building block was 27,474,376 at the bottom, the second column moving left to right. So the next column, the third column is 26 Budget House, that comes out in May. The next column is senate, then they put out their projection, that comes out. I'm sorry.

House comes out in April, senate comes out in May, and then the final conference committee final number is July. So every time this is updated, it is recommended that you go in and adjust the numbers. Then we keep hearing about, oh, the numbers change, the numbers change, and they do. Historically, I mentioned this Monday. This year, particularly year that's demonstrated, it went up, I believe it was $455 on this sheet right here.

The previous year was 320, so that would be 2025. And then in 2024 they actually went down. So the aid we received went down. So when people tell me the numbers change, historically they often go up, but they have been known to go down. So if you could go to the current year, so everyone knows the layout on this is local aid.

So if you can switch to 2027, John Mhmm. And hit submit. This is the governor's local aid number for 2027 budget, which begins July 1. Yes. People have asked, why don't we get the final number until after the budget's already in place and executed?

It's just the way the state of Massachusetts does it, which is why it is recommended to to continually update the numbers as they come out. So if we look at the bottom number in the second column, the governor's number for Middleborough's local aid for projected for 2027, the building block for the budget is $28,000,000.52 $8.26. Now if you can click on so that's what we get. When it goes up is a good thing. We receive more money.

If you can click on the other tab, estimate assessment and charges. So there's a second tab. This is what we owe back to the state in assessments. At the bottom of the list, $2,791,917. That's what we owe back to the state.

Unfortunately, as state aid goes up, so do our assessments. Historically, if state aid goes down, so doesn't our assessments. So any gains we get or receive in increased state aid, we will probably see a very similar increase in state assessment, so any gains will be offset by what we owe. Now, what we owe is never or hasn't been more than what we get, so we may see a 100,000, a $150,000 increase overall at the end. That's what I the best way I can explain it.

And again, people can go back and look and see what we've gotten in the past. And this is public record. It's on the on the state's website. Anybody can look at it. So that's the tutorial, the best I can give. I I don't know any other nuances. It's pretty self explanatory. You good?

What was the estimated? And

20

last time.

28,000,000. Oh, what we're giving or what we're getting?

What you're getting.

28,000,052 can change. But we're sending back to the state 2.7 2,791,917.

For a second, I thought it was the same number.

No. The the number we get is bigger than the number we have to give back.

So essentially any any increase in local receipts we we're going to get could be negated by this Right. Assessment.

So, like, last year, if you can go back to '26, John, and show the numbers. Yep. Go to estimated receipts.

Yep.

Hit submit. So if you go to the bottom and the last number on the right, 27929000 325. If you go to the first number, the governor's number Yep. 27474376. It's $455,000 if I remember doing the math a few days ago. So it went up $4.55. Yep. Can you click on estimated assessments and charges?

Here. I had to wait for the summer.

So the final number of what we owed was $2,000,007.15 $7.47. The first number that came out in January is 2,388,003 I 80 think that's 320,000. So while we gained $4.55, we increased what we owe $3.22 and the difference is $1.30 27. $1.27?

Yeah. So

that is hopefully, if we get 01/27, that'll be good. If the numbers go down, that'll be bad if local aid goes down. But the only time it went down was in '24 in the last three years. Any questions? Mister chair?

So if we were looking at the budget book Mhmm.

And I

know you you haven't done

the budget Yep.

Would people find those exact numbers or are

they No. Brute? No. That was a that was a common complaint after the first I don't remember the date. The first Monday when I was asked to look for money, to give extra money to the school committee, this is where I started.

I I looking at the budget book, I couldn't couldn't see a regular balance sheet numbers on top of another, just being able to look at it quickly and make that determination. It was a lot of hunting around in the budget book trying to make the determination of what it is. I found it, I did math, I subtracted what what was in the book from what we were gotten, what we were getting, and there was a $746,000 difference in in the negative. The number we had in the book was higher than the actual number, again the proposed number in the cherry sheet. Now if you are estimating a number, the rule of thumb is making sure, I believe it's common practice and recommended practice for all municipalities, you are supposed to start your building block for your budget with the governor's local aid proposal.

That's what I looked at. I looked at the number in the budget book and I realized it was a $7.46 difference. Yep. And it was the same with the estimated charge, the assessments. The assessments were listed in the book as $2,000,000 and the number that the state gave us was $2,000,791.09 17.

Through the chair, Joe, because there are so many discrepancies in the revenue and the expense line items. Some guidance that I had received from finance people in municipal practice, the department of revenue made a really good suggestion and

I thought it was very helpful.

It's okay. What you want? Yeah. What do we get in?

The budget

books. We'll get out of some way. If they had prior year schedule a right from the DOR, that way when people open the budget book, they know exactly with a with a 100% certainty that the schedule a number is there. You can't you can't fudge that number or you can't mistake that number or you can't claim an accounting error on that number because the schedule a for those people who

don't know is the number that

the town reports to state, that's what the state uses to do all the calculations. And so if you have the schedule a number in the book, there's no mistake in that number.

Oh, that's who we are.

Are you taking public comment?

I'll I'll answer any questions as long as it's okay with the chair and the rest of the committee.

That's too much. If I may,

one month per Marion Road just for grins and giggles. Did you go past two years or three years to look at the cherry sheet and the budget to see if it was consistent?

The only thing I looked at historically was how much it went up or down from the state to the town. I did not go back and look at any other previous town budgets. Like, that's not my focus. My focus is strictly on '27. But I looked at what we were getting, what were the projections from the state, because a lot of people encouraged me or tried to encourage me and tell me, oh, Omari, state aid will go up.

And it will. It just wasn't gonna overcome what I the number that I was seeing, and I needed to look and try and track, you know, how much is it gonna go up. And what I was seeing, you know, it went up twice, but it went down three years ago. So it's not necessarily a true statement to say state aid always goes up. But I was just looking at looking at it to track how much it would go up less the state assessment what we owed to realize a net gain in overcoming any deficit on the local aid not deficit, any shortfall that $7.46.

How much can that $7.46 change? That's what I was looking for. Right. Possibly. And the best educated guess I can give is it might go up a 100 of $200,000.

My question is if there's a pattern where the cherry sheet did not match the budget or by at the end of all of the committees in the house and the senate finishing that over the past few years, it got close between the budget and the final cherry sheet. Because right now, there's a discrepancy that you're watching. Right. If we had done it previous years from the cherry sheet that was out in January to our budget that was out in February when the conference committee finished and the senate finished and the house finished, how close were we to the actual budget?

It was

my wonders.

I still think we're gonna be at minimum five fifty short. That's being optimistic.

For the last three two years?

Oh, I'm sorry. We're gonna be $5.50 short on local aid and then we're gonna be we're starting at $7.91 in what we owe. And if that if if local aid goes up, state assessments go up. If local aid goes down, state assessments goes down. And it's not the same number. So I was just looking for the net gain between the two historically, and are we the total number is 1,500,000 and change together, assessments and local aid. The I'm trying to close that gap from the numbers that I had looked at in the budget book.

Right.

So that's what I was looking at when people were telling me state aid would go up, and I agreed it could go up, but I don't think it can overcome the 1.5 total.

Gotcha. And

looking back previous years to see if there's a a safety net of what had happened is not in your purview. Okay.

I I understand that, you know, if that was the a will of an individual to go back and wanna look, they can. But I my focus is on trying to get us to town meeting and get us to 27.

Yep. Yep. You're absolutely right. Thank you. Yep. Thank you, mister chair.

Y'all good? So trying to I think you all were present during my presentation on Monday night. I think it's important that I think it was the term I used was thoughtful consideration and collaboration on how do we make make up the shortfall, and the shortfall fall is what it is, but ultimately it's gonna come down with cuts. I would recommend or I would seek assistance and consideration from this committee and the select board and how to prioritize the approach to cuts. I mean, there's been a lot of suggestions such as last in first out, necessity, nonessential essential, revenue source versus nonrevenue source, impact on revenue collection versus none.

So I think there has to be some prioritization on making these determinations and having this thoughtful consideration and collaboration, I think we should have some guiding principles. It's easy to go in and just say, cut this cut this cut this without really looking at the impacts on the delivery of services by our departments to the residents of Middleborough. Because this is a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle that there there's only one final picture. How we get there, you know, if we make one determination on a cut, does it save an extra cut or allow us to have freedom and movement in another in another cut? It's dominoes.

We're gonna knock one down. What's the unintended consequences of this cut? So I think we owe the employees and the residents our due diligence in making some type of prioritization list and having, like I said, some firm guiding principles that we can all agree upon because this is going to be impactful on people's lives. And I think people are going to be upset, rightfully so, because we're talking about losing their job. And if we show no empathy and compassion for this process, then I don't think you should be sitting in the room.

It's not a cold hearted business decision where a local community who everybody seems to know each other and then you still got to walk down the aisle at Truckee's and know, hey, I I made a cut to a budget and that person lost their job. So I think at least we give them the decency to sit and create some type of a guideline first before we look at numbers and I I mean I've thrown some some principles out that I think we should adhere to and I'd be willing to, you know, have this collaboration together to try and come up with some some principles that they don't have to be ranked in order, but some things we need to consider when looking at what we're gonna do. So that's my first plea to the finance committee.

Hey. So I guess I'll start with, are these the only departments that have been asked?

Oh, I'm not even on the sheet yet.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I'm not. This sheet Don't raise this. No. You this is that's next. Okay. I again, I I really think this is, you know, it's almost like a mission statement or a this is an important process and then it's gonna impact the entire community. I I again, I just think if people understand why me versus how come not them, we have some type of guiding principle to tell them, hey. This is what? Not because we don't have the money. We don't have the money is the main reason, but your position is not necessary in the effective delivery of services to the community.

Your position doesn't have a revenue generator behind it. That person's does. Your position, if cut, impacts the delivery of services to the town in a way that we've agreed is too important or less important. Again, whose definition of essential versus essential are we using? Is it Oz's committee?

I think eventually there has to be a an evaluating factor, but one person's opinion shouldn't be it should be a group decision. Decision. It's just I I think it's an it's an important starting point to this plan. That's really all it is. Through the GER.

On my thoughts on the prioritization and things of that nature. I think there is a consideration of cash revenue, what folks bring in to the town. I think things that need to be considered are consolidations. Are there any synergies or ways to combine groups or services? Shared services is a big output in both municipal and private industry.

I think that's a really important factor. Two others that come to mind are concessions. What are the multitude of unions, 13 or so? What can they work with the town on? I added one in there with contracts. I think maybe contracts could be negotiated or renegotiated. And then the last option would be obviously the cuts. So it's kind of a four c approach, cash, consolidations, concessions, contracts, I guess that's five, and cuts. My thoughts prior to relation, how we look at it.

Mr. Chair, to Joe, have you considered a reduced hour work week

Well, I

instead of cuts?

So here here here's I do have some data that I do wanna share with the committee. It's not it's not every department. This was literally they had three days to put this together and it it's some of the smaller departments. The bigger departments, you know, it's gonna take a little time to evaluate a five, ten, 20% cut in the impacts in delivery of service to the community. So I didn't really expect it from them, that's why part of my plan was that, you know, you convene the finance committee weekly so I can keep you updated with what I'm getting.

Again, this, if we have some type of guiding principle or some mission statement on how how we're gonna do this, I think looking at the data, we can then look understand this what I have for you is just the department heads offering, and this is what, you know, they see a five, ten, and 20% cut in the impacts, impacts what would do to their department. Now you mentioned cutting service down. That is a commonality in the the ones that I will give you tonight. The issue that I have been, I would say, told about or, you know, there's been some comments about why should the townspeople suffer in service delivery of service because of it this isn't, you know, the issues surrounding the problem we're facing, you know, the elimination of services, that should be part of what we're looking at versus cutting people. How do you make that determination?

Is cutting services? Oh, here we're gonna close a day and a half a week extra or because the department head doesn't feel that they could lose anyone in the department versus no. We're taking a person from your department and you're gonna stay open and do more work with your department. Again, I I don't know how to balance that, and that's a hard thing to evaluate. So that's what I'm looking for for direction and help with.

Who's who's making that determination? Is it something we wanna consider reducing hours? Obviously, with reducing hours, every department head that did mention that, I did tell them you're willing to take as a department head a pay cut because you're included in that, and they the ones that presented that, those options understood that, as opposed to maybe cutting someone in the staff. So those are well, they they're giving us their information. I think, again, it's perspective.

Their perspective is they want to and they should advocate for their people, advocate for their department, but at what cost? Why penalize the town? I don't know how to balance that out. Is that something we wanna consider? I don't think as a taxpayer that there's gonna be a high level of tolerance for reduced services when reduced personnel is probably the the ultimate way to go here, and the town employees are gonna have to do more.

Mister Chair? But to Trustee. Joe, if we reduce personnel, there's going to be a reduction in service to people. In other words, if something only took one day to get, it could take three or four days for them to get now because the employees are stacked up because you're doing extra work trying to fit it in. So it's it's one or the other.

And clearly, I don't believe there's any appetite for an override for residents because that would be penalizing residents as well. So on my own behalf, as a resident, I would rather have town hall closed five hours a week more or eight hours a week more and not have to pay an override on my taxes. Then it's much easier for me to work my schedule around, okay, town hall closes all day on Friday Right. And then an hour Monday through Thursday earlier. That's much easier to swallow.

Here's the issue with that. How long is the recovery for that versus making the cut now and building back, maybe possibly quicker? I think cutting services versus cutting people, the services have to be provided. You're never gonna have you might get the people back in a few years, but I think the cut in services will take longer because we're continuing to pay salary increases, benefit increases. It this is a snowball effect.

It's getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And if the excuse is going to stay in place and there's still financial problems in the future, how much can you cut? We're gonna have, what, the clerk's office open one day a week? That doesn't work for me. Are you gonna have, you know, a treasury.

You can only pay a bill on Friday afternoon. People signed up to do this job. They need to do the job. And I think the additional personnel in this town, I think contributed to where we are today. There has been times in this town where we've done a lot more with less, and I think the excessive hiring has contributed to this problem.

I'm just being totally frank with the people. So I don't think reduction in services Yeah. Is the way to go. You're never gonna get the the other issue is, you know, I'm I'm getting, you know, hey, I have a a stationary budget. Yo. Your pencils and ink cartridges aren't gonna close this gap. And now you wanna close less time, offer less services to the town, and then not be able to copy a document or use a pen to sign something for them. Like, why is it still on that side of the the problem? The problem is too many people.

Okay. Nick?

One, I know we're talking about staffing, so the first thought I thought the first thing I thought of as well, is there is there a way to get any feedback from the apartment heads as to when when they have any increase of workload versus when they have a little bit less to do, for example, like, to

build an

apartment? Is there a time of the year that they could do with one less full time employee and have a basically a timed laid off and then a timed you're gonna come back to work? To

to to try and work that out in the short amount of time we have, and to be able to come up with this, you know, unique process or method in maintaining personnel and delivering services, again, you're kicking the can down the road, one. And two, you're putting a band aid on the problem. Mhmm. This is gonna come up again next year. You have contracts, raises, step raises that are all come and do. Where does it come from? You can't cut the services and continue to rip no. We need to stay open. Mhmm. You need to cut people.

And that those are the conversations I've been having with the department heads. They come in and, you know, they give me these reduction in hours, and and reduction in their supply closet, and the ink. Yeah. It's not gonna work. It doesn't move anymore. It it I'm telling you, what I've gotten so far, it doesn't it doesn't help us overcome the shortfall.

I I would just say that my concern is that we go through this massive layoff process and we lose some some employees who've been here for years that have institutional knowledge and in call it a

year or two years when

we're looking to fill that position, we're gonna fill it with someone who probably makes just as much who doesn't have that experience. So I understand like we have to make cuts.

Well, I think it's even not to be contradictory. Like I I appreciate that point of view, but actually it's the opposite. We are a very strong union community. The unions are last in first out. Mhmm. So you're losing the people who are actually doing the work, and the managers who are overseeing them are staying. This is going to be you're still, for example, because I was one, you're still a police officer first. Whether you're a supervisor, a lieutenant, you still have the number one role in your job is to be a police officer, like to go out and answer

a call. Mhmm.

That's just where we're at now. I don't

Yeah. Give you

that stream, but it's last in first out, and that's every department. GMEG contract, they have bumping rights. Again, these are all things that we need to look at. I we can't cut the pencil budget out of our way out of this problem. Yeah. It's people. Yep. And I'm I I don't wanna be the one saying it, but we need to be realistic. And I don't think closing the doors three days a week is the answer. Mister chair,

to what the interim town manager has said a few moments ago, It appeared over the last two or three years that there were approximately 22 hires.

I'm not sure.

That definitely is an impact on the town's budget. I don't know if it's a real number or if it just felt that way, but it it appeared. So I

Tell them if you

say other thought.

Mister chair? Well, the interim town manager came in with a suggestion that even before we started taking a look at all this, we got some kind of guide. Guiding principles was the term he used. I think us hashing out what hours shouldn't hours, I think when, in my opinion, is to take the suggestion of the account manager internally. And work on the guiding principles, work that through the thought process of stated a little early, maybe the revenue that you get coming in or use some basic, this is the guidelines before we start looking at the pencils and the stuff that people suggesting.

Because I speaking from doing this a number of years, it does come down to personnel. And I I would suggest we spend our time on the guiding principles and see how that plays out before we start nickel and diming what these folks put down. I think this is very important.

It's a

it's a task that they had to do.

It's the next step. It's the next step is evaluating what they recommend, but I think having a good foundation as a a group to make that determination of who's getting cut. Again, I I I have mentioned to a few people like this committee, select board, school committee, department heads. When it happens, when the final decisions are made, we need to stand unified together shoulder to shoulder because people are gonna be mad. I don't see another way around it.

Mister Chair, was just suggesting that I'll say, I think spinning wheels talking about this sheet. I get you.

So I I if mister Chair, I just I mean, I I think John gave us, you know, his four c's, you know, maybe putting down, trying to adhere to first last in, first out type and process, impact in collection of revenue. I hate to say essential versus nonessential. I I think people don't like to be categorized as nonessential. That's it's not insulting. I'm not sure if we want to define essential or someone can come up with one that is acceptable.

I don't think we can. If you're the person getting cut, it's

Well, there's something else we gotta think about as well because if, you know, we eliminate a certain position, like, at what point do we eat up that savings, backfilling with other things? And I'll just use the example, like, with, you know, police officers. Like, they gotta maintain minimum manning. You know what I mean? At what point, how many do we cut? If we cut any, that that ends up just we negate that safe position. You know?

I think I have a thought on that. Yeah.

I think that if you look at the contracts for the lease and fire, the municipal manning only counts for

the first

year. So that falls by the wayside. In other words

Explain where the municipal manning?

Yeah. So in other words, if you have minimum manning of, say, five per shift or 10 per shift, whatever the number is, that standard is good for the first year. And it falls off after the

first year. So it could be

less than that. It's an operational efficiency that you're thinking of.

Check. I would like to see so I I this is one sheet. I'd like to see these other seven department signs off top of my head because as department, I like to see the feedback from these other departments because some of these are it's almost like a hybrid approach. Some are proposing laying off employees. Some are saying, well, incidentals and, for example, health, 5% incidentals and supplies. It's like, well, I think if we have these couple of options for all the departments, there could be a hybrid approach where you're just eliminating supplies from one and employees from another.

Agree. I agree with that. But again, who makes the determination on essential versus nonessential, and what departments are we going to prioritize? Is it a department, you know, when you say we is this a department that is necessary? Is this some is this an an extravagant thing to have?

Do other towns have this? Do we have a need for this in this economic times, in these economic times. Again, I would like to have that consensus kind of Oh, yeah. As a guy and we don't have to make it Yeah. But maybe this is something that we can all go home and think about, and maybe jot it down and John his four c's. That's great. But I would like to add to that, a little more show a little more empathy and compassion towards the process, because it's cold hearted.

Mister chair, just just add to the the c's, I think thinking of services, and I think we've kind of touched on this as critical services be a better word, necessarily. Yeah. Than than essential. Think critical to the to the mission of the town and what it achieves for the for the residents.

That's a C too. We can make it all Cs.

Like Can

I go through the chair when you're done, Alan? Yeah.

Yeah. And just one one more comment is I think we also as we're going through this process, and I know this puts more work on department heads, but we we need to recast as we're proposing cuts. And my my mind is kind of focused on so cuts at an enterprise fund, for example, results in perhaps losing some revenue on the indirect cost. I'm not saying that should be protected, but we just need to understand the implications of all the various cuts that might be made because what you poke in here might pop out somewhere else. So I I think as we go through it, just those recasts of the financial analysis will will need to be done.

Through the chair. And I think just to Joe's point and Alan's point, just to try and be sensitive to people's live liaisons obtain and bring put into Dropbox the the contracts for their respective groups because we need to look at those carefully. Because if that's going to be one of the c's, which I personally think it should be, maybe there are details in the contract that could mitigate or minimize a human impact. So my recommendation would be for liaisons to obtain their respective contracts for their respective groups so we can all review them together as a committee.

So I question to you. Can that is that something that you, maybe as a committee, we members can go and next week we meet and maybe come up with some guiding principles, I'd appreciate that.

I think we can. Okay.

If you wanted me, I gave you each a little spreadsheet. As I've mentioned before, they're not as good as John's. I literally put this together this afternoon. I met with the these department heads. I actually I will qualify.

I didn't meet with all of them. Some of them sent it to me because we couldn't meet. Some of them sent me the numbers, the impacts, but we just couldn't schedule a time to meet. Some department heads requested a little continuance due to the, you know, the task at hand being kind of overwhelming to them, so I did let them know know that I couldn't have met with them anyways. There wasn't enough time in the day, so I I do have a few more departments to meet with. Tomorrow I'm meeting with more. So again, I want you to understand I'm sorry. Jim,

Jim? Question.

These are working documents. Yes. They are. Working doc thank you. And they're fluid.

This is not this is not the plan. This is information gathered so we can make an informed decision and have all the information at least numbers wise on the number ends, and I think John mentions a good point, you know, contracts. We need to look at those and be able to make some determinations, and we need to have the next set of conversations I need to have with union union leadership and their department heads together and be able to see and find out if there's anything that they could consider, helping to prevent any further cuts. What we'll look at that.

And Mister Chatterjee, a follow-up. So this is draft. These are working documents. I don't see this

as something that's floating around. Right. So you do not want me to hand them out? This is information I'm yeah. I guess it's a public document now. It's in a public meeting. So Okay. Again and I but if we qualify, I didn't I just wrote numbers and then a little bit of impact. I'm not I can Okay. No. I'm I'm not I'm not defensive about it. I'm just telling you what it was. I get it, but how am I supposed to give you the information to build collaborative effort without me telling you what I'm what I'm learning from the department heads? It needs to be shared. I don't think it's it's not protected information.

It's an honest assessment by the department, and I think the department heads want people to know.

I'm just saying, working document draft, anybody looks at it,

this this But qualifying that This Correct. Can change. Yes. It can. Probably will change. It probably will change.

Mister Chair, if I could make a recommendation to Joe, perhaps a draft watermark on paperwork with a date in the corner.

Everybody write draft in big letters all

over the If someone asks

for Draft.

The evidence clearly says draft

Okay.

The date. Then if you keep track of your changes

I I will. It is a working document that I will keep alive on my computer, so I appreciate that. You're 100% right. But I don't know if we wanna discuss it or you wanna take it and look at it. I basically asked for cuts at five, ten, and 20% of their budget.

I asked how many employees they had. I defined them, the ones I spoke with on the left side under the department name, how many full time, how many part time. I asked if they had any retirements planned for fiscal year twenty seven, and I just I'll go over real quick the departments I met with and spoke with building, IT, health, veterans, clerk, treasurer, planning. I did not meet with d p DPW. I own received information via email.

Sanitation, same department head sent me an email. I was looking at some of the information of the proposed cuts or the impacts, not proposed cuts, impacts of a five, ten and twenty and I questioned some of the information so I didn't put it down because I was unsure of what he was writing about. COA, we met. Her budget is based on a lot of different factors. She had a huge spreadsheet.

There was so much information. I really couldn't put it down. A lot of her salaries are grants are grant funded, so we can't cut them. Looking at that department, it is it does generate revenue. I do think it's again, here's a service in the community that closing hours this is a perfect example. Closing hours would not it's not the answer. Obviously, she has a limited staff. So what is what is the impact? She really couldn't come up with one. She offered up, hey, this is what I saw, and cuts right away.

I I told her to, you know, take another and if this was an issue that we wanted to look at, then we would look at. But right now I I think she needed to get there's so much detail in her her budget that she needed more time to go through it and sort out who was paid by and what mechanisms she they were paid by, whether it was a grant or a town budget. So that's it. You have the little impacts on the right at each number. Those are the numbers that based on what they have in the budget book, a five, ten, and a 20, and that's where we

are. That's all I have. Sure. Would any changes in in fee structures, for example, like permits, would that change the equation at all?

So for example, under the clerk, she she did give me a fee increase recommendation and potential revenue of what that increase would be, I didn't include it. So it is one of my working documents, but there is her proposal. Again, I I need to evaluate that a little more. We're looking at the other side of the ledger and making up a deficit. That obviously would help increasing fees. I don't know what the appetite is for that. Again, this is something that needs further discussion. Mhmm. And I would defer it to you and the select board.

Joe, let me ask you. Do you have copies of all the town contracts? I mean

I don't. Listen. The town manager's office. Joe Perkins doesn't have copies of all there may be copies copies in in that that office. Office. I haven't had time to do anything but this. So I am sure they're in there. I haven't looked at them. They're on the website. Okay. Mister chair, there's another question.

I'm of them.

I'm learning. Send it, Nate.

That's something with Glenn always. I'm learning. When it comes to what we offer for all these different health insurance plans, is that is that contractually obligated or is that something that we can look at in terms of discontinuing?

So health insurance. So I believe it's an offered benefit by the town. You work for the town, you meet certain requirements of working hours to become eligible for benefits. This is again, by looking at the actuals and what our contribution should be in 2027, we were able to it's still a short it'll shortfall by June is the additional funding that we're gonna add to it next year. That is something that needs to be considered when, again, we put a number, the cut with a face, a person, and then we need to look at do they do they pay do they get health insurance through the town?

What's the policy? Mhmm. What's our commitment to that? They're gonna lose that health insurance coverage. They can pay for it through COBRA. Yeah. But I believe that's a fringe that we can consider as an additional cut when that person is cut.

Fringes should definitely be able to

Yes. But I don't have those. So when we're looking at a cut Mhmm. Their salary number in the budget book, that's the number plus the fringe. Yep. So that we may get

I'm just thinking I'm I'm speaking in terms of of just because some of the insurance policies are 13%. So is there you know, the increase is 13%. So is it possible to eliminate that? We're no longer do that policy. We we would like to move you. Please select one of the other dozen options.

I don't know. Because that's the one thing I I I if there's 30 people

in a in a policy that's an increased 15%, if you can if they can move to any of the other policies, it's it's automatic net savings regardless if they're gonna be laid off.

I don't know. I know open enrollment's coming up. Yep. But again, I don't know who and then don't forget, it's not just town government that's in insurance policy. It's teaches G and E. Mhmm. It's people that we don't Of course. You know. So there's a lot of people on health insurance. I can look into that. I don't know if we can eliminate certain plans from the GIC plan. I think that's state state regulated. I don't know.

Yeah. WellPoint was a GIC one, but some of the other and then that one only went up marginally. There was a couple of other ones in there that aren't GIC, you know, if it's if it's like Tufts or

No. They so GIC is Yeah. The the service that the state goes with. It's the state of Massachusetts. I think it's government insurance Mhmm. Something. Yeah. But because Middleborough is a member of the GIC or subscribes to that service, the broker, I guess, and these are the plans the broker offers. This is what employees can pick Yep. I mean, they you have to make a decision as an employee after looking at all the options that you you have through GIC.

You get to pick. I don't know if we can limit the options on the menu. Yep. That's I believe it's from the state. Okay. I don't know. It's worth checking out, I guess. Yeah.

Mister chair, I I think that the GIC contract, last last I heard, I thought it was expiring in 2027. I I think it takes us through that next fiscal year. And then it needs to be either renegotiated and I think Jay had referenced maybe a county plan or I I don't recall all the details, but there are other types of health insurance plans or I don't think means to to get.

That would be a great

correctly that the I don't know. That contract wasn't up until

I don't know.

'28. Oh, '28. I'm not a 100%.

Okay. That would be a great question to ask any candidates for the Tau management position.

And one last thing, mister chair. The unemployment insurance, is a town now, like I I can only speak from my own business is that I have a basically unemployment insurance contribution rate, that's based off of how many people you lay off. Is that gonna change with the town, and does that have any long term effects?

So, yes. So what we pay is dependent upon who the person is. If it's a single person with no dependents, it's one number. If it's a person who's married with no dependents, it's one number. If it's a person married with seven dependents, it's a different number.

I don't have the numbers. I'm working on it, but I was told that is how the insurance gets evaluated or a number assigned to it. So again, this is something that isn't an estimation or an actual when we do make that determine on who is cut. That's a that's I think a monster Mhmm. To be able to calculate.

And I don't know if we can I mean, I suppose we'd know? I I I don't even know if we could calculate it, but I did ask for that those numbers. So we're working on that. That's again, I I thought that was gonna be after all the gathering of information, that's the next step. What are what are the impacts per person that is proposed to be cut? Mhmm.

Mister chair, to Nate's excellent point, corporate has two or three insurance policies, not seven or 10.

Mr. Chair, just a question to do, actually two. What is our total number? The total of all in, the 8,000 per BP. And don't forget, the town does owe CPC a $111,000 from the windows on the police station, which was supposed to be on the annual town meeting warrant.

And So I learned after the town meeting agenda closed.

Well, the select board can place articles on the warrant until it's advertised. So but that is something that as a member of CPC, the planning board representative, I don't want that number to get lost. Whether it comes in the fall, that's great. But I just don't want that number to get lost in everything. My second question is, when you talk about cutting employees, and I'm very familiar with this, who's gonna do their work?

You've got everybody seems to be a union employee here. So how do you ex I assume you'll have to expand job descriptions, which will have to go through the union for approval. How how does that work that that employee did get done? Because that would be cutting services to townspeople as well. So there needs to be some side of a plan.

And I assume if you give an employee more job duties, you have to pay them more. The union's not gonna let them get work do more work for no money. So that's another part of the the thing. You may find that you cut somebody, and then there's like, okay. Well, they have five essential things that they do. We have nobody to parcel this out to, so that work isn't gonna get done.

I think that's gonna be a big burden on the department heads, and it's their job to figure that out. They're the department head. And on the flip The bigger problem is how do we how do we pay people if we don't have money. So they won't work here if we can't pay them, and then we won't be able to do the job. The department heads fully understand the ramifications of a cut, and it's really up to them as the department head to be able to mitigate the cuts to it and be able to make make it work.

I I and I'm not I think that's really what it boils down to. I I understand, but, again, this is this the situation we all share. And those are valid questions, Tracy. I agree with you a 100%. I just looking at debts the department has a problem. Could we help them? I I don't know how you can help them. I mean, we're cutting their budget. They still have to deliver services to the town. I don't know. I'm seeing I can't I can't answer that question.

I'm seeing a huge union problem.

Well

That's how you how are you gonna convince the unions that, you know, it's okay for their people to do things that aren't in their job description. That's that's gonna be whether they're willing to waive the working outside of your gray job description for a time, a year, or something like that.

Well, it goes on the flip side as well. I've I've been in the union for my entire career. And, you know, when it's speaking of concessions, it's been my experience that, like, you go to the union for concessions, they're gonna want something in perpetuity down the

road. Right.

You know what I mean? Which you'll end up it's it's kicking the can down the road again. So it's something that I don't think it's it's not impossible to get the unions to agree on a concession, but it's, I don't know, unlikely in my opinion.

At that point, the unions are the ones driving the the the car because they have something that we want.

Mister mister chair, I we've to Joe, we've talked a lot about the expense side. I had a couple of questions on the balance sheet, on the revenue side. So new growth number, we have $1,000,000 in there for new growth. How how confident are we in that million dollar number? Is there a breakdown or a tally that

you register? I did look at the new growth numbers in the budget book, and we had a pretty big bump last year, year before. Again, for people who don't understand, new growth is your local or your building permits, new construction, all that after permitting, after completion, construction completion, and then when they get on the tax rolls and then can pay real estate tax. That's new growth. That's a building block for your budget.

I have had that number looked at by two people I I respect in financial municipal budgeting, and they said that's that's an okay number.

It's a

reasonable number.

Yes. I did check it. Okay. Because I was I I'm just I was not sure of how to look at it, but it is in the budget book, and it has been increasing. There is a upward trend in the budget book for the past, I think, years, five years. By the way, back to '22. I'm sure. It's been

a while. I know you can drive down Route 28 Yes. And see all that's going on Yes. And kinda put some numbers in your head, but I I just wanted to kind of reflect I I

I had I checked that. Okay. Okay. I again, on my limited experience, I reached out to people who are experienced, and they said it's a good number. Yep. Good. Good question.

Other questions, back back to the local receipts, which I were I mean, that's the the big swing number for us. And we're targeting now at eleven five. Do you have a breakdown of that eleven five? Just so we because I know

So the eleven

chunk of it is Yep. The excise tax

It's hotel hotel receipts receipts or or tax tax receipts. Receipts. To It's me, meals tax receipts. It's marijuana. It's excise tax. It's permitting fees. It's all licenses. It's everything the town collects other than real estate tax tax money. That number has been steady. The '25 to '26 increase was $42,000.

It was level. That's why I had a problem with it. The bigger number this like, to we will probably exceed it this year. It will exceed eleven five. But then that anything over eleven five is definitely gonna drop that big number down from 27, but I was told you need to maintain that number until it's a a proven increase certified on the recap sheet from the state from DOR. And that number was not where I needed to be to make it 13,000,000.

Could we see an accounting of just go back to f y twenty five and get the accounting of the local receipts? So we have a a So running ledger of just just to wrap at least my head around

it. Yeah.

So because I understand some of those, like excise tax was like 4,500,000 or something like that, but that only gets us, you know, not quite halfway there, but there's some other big things, meal tax, hotel tax, and so forth.

So you want 20 fives?

Well, I'm because we probably don't have 26

Correct.

Finished. Right? Right. So if we get 25, it gives us the breakdown of the categories, and then we could say, okay, Does that look reasonable going forward? And can you come up with a forecast for some of those those items? It's gonna give you a list of stuff.

Mhmm. That's

all. I will see what I can obtain.

Not price. It's try to figure out if that number works. Yeah. Thank you. And enjoy your thank you for all that you're doing. Thank you. Appreciated, and you're in a difficult role in the hot seat.

Oh, I will say that I've had a lot of people offer help, and I appreciate that. So and I'm not turning it down.

We're here.

Think a good plan moving forward is to, you know, talk with our department heads that we liaison for, sit with them, talk with exactly know that I've already talked with chief for a of what this looks like. We might be able to find some attrition within the departments. We might be able to find some positions that are funded that are not filled right now. You know what I mean? Those can be a give back.

I honestly it's a hard thing to actually to look at. I mean, I think this this is people. You know? This is our town, and contribute to it as well. So Yeah. It's you know, like, Joe said, you know, we owe it to these people to look at everything. You know?

Mister chair. Agree. What? Look. No disagreement here.

What is expected

from members of the finance committee? What is our charge as liaisons? Can that be described? I don't know whether it's you or the town manager. I mean, what what is if we sit with these department heads, the purpose of the Finance Committee members reaching out to the liaisons is to just can can we have that clarified? Mister chair,

I I think one was contracts. Get get get the contracts.

Oh, I'm sorry. I was I guess, I wasn't clear. If we're gonna sit with the department head, what is the that's what I heard. And if I didn't hear that right, then I'll I'll forget the question. But I'd like to have it in statement that I'm a liaison, I'm meeting with you, and the charge of the finance committee member is two. Now, yes, getting the contract and walking in with that in your head, that's important. But can we define this so there isn't this he gives one message, he gives another, I give another. This is the reason we're doing this?

I would say that they'll get as much information as we're tasked to get as much information and and get their input and, you know, so we can formulate a best decision moving forward.

Mister chairman,

I'm sorry.

Can I just

I'm sorry?

I'm in the middle of this. Sorry. So we meet with the those department heads. These department heads I'm I'm not trying I'm not trying to yank at your No. I'm not. Okay.

I'm not I'm not taking

it that way. So we meet with them. They've already met with the talent manager. So I want them to feel that and this goes at the empathy part. I want them to feel that we're there not to question what you've already done. Or I want them to feel that this isn't a challenge here. Maybe a deeper explanation of this. I'm just trying to get something so we're all asking the same questions and not going off on our own and causing a problem, because we need to work together on this.

Can you

help me, Joe?

So I in the in the the the meetings I had with the department heads, the reality of this, I don't think is really when when I had deep conversations about the impact statements, They were struggling with it, and it's perspective, you know, services versus human casualty. Like, this is I think having somebody be able to reach out to the department heads and at least have a conversation letting them know that, hey. You're not in this alone. I think as a representative of the finance committee, you know, being able to send the message to the community, to the people who this is gonna impact, to the citizens of towns. This isn't cold hearted, like I said before.

I think this is another yeah. And, Bob, I think you're 100% right. Don't rehash the stuff. Maybe talk through the stuff. Maybe look at, hey.

I saw, you know, what you you your your impacts were with a five, ten, and 20. You know, is there any other way especially if if you've looked at their budget and you're the liaison, not to be accusatory accusatory and question them, but, hey, can we do this? I've had many conversations with people about here's an example. We need to ask the unions about foregoing the raises. Now I know that 99% of people in the union under a collective bargaining agreement, they're gonna get a raise of whatever percent next year.

More than likely, the contract is going to be extended or they're if they have a longer contract, isn't raised in '28 as well. So if you ask the unions, look, would you guys forego your raises next year? Sure. In '28, it doesn't say you get a raise this year, and it's this. And then at '28, you get a raise, it's this year.

No. The number in '28 is based on the number in '27 with the raise in '27 and then compounded in '28. So you need to be careful when you're looking at asking for concessions for raises in this fiscal year because it's still in twenty eight's fiscal year. If you're asking for that, you need to understand that you need to ask for it in a way that the it that raise, do you want it to compound and then '28, they get it back, or do we need to look at it? That's kicking the can in my opinion.

Again, these are all conversations that people are having, but they don't understand the nuances of CBA. So be careful when you're talking about contracts with them, but I think reviewing those types of issues and being informed, it makes us better equipped to make these decisions if you all understand what the department head understands. So a conversation, I don't think is a bad thing. I know they're busy, but I think, again, they're gonna I've asked them. I had them all sign a little little agreement.

Hey. These are just proposals. The town has not promised me anything, has not guaranteed anything. This is data collection, and I ask for confidentiality to help control, you know, the spin on conversations. I don't want a department head going out and saying, Joe told me this. No. Joe never told and if another department head heard that, they'd be like, no. Joe didn't say that. He made everyone sign it. This information, I don't have a problem with. It's public record. Like, this is the department head's impact statement if we cut 20%. These are smaller departments. We haven't yet seen the big departments. Those impact statements are gonna need to be evaluated.

I will figure out a way to disseminate. I don't know if I I shouldn't say that. We need to discuss that information if we're gonna collaborate on this, and, again, those impact statements are gonna cause anxiety. But if we're looking at data versus making it if we long as we let people know this is data, this is what we're evaluating, how do we even get to the decision making process and, you know, prevent the it's it's a tough process. Mister chair, I

just would advise that I'll just get a different way. Who works with the unions in the town side?

Department heads.

Department heads. And who sits down with making the contract and putting the contract together? Department heads and the town manager. So I would advise that we are not the negotiators. And I I've had experience with this with because I have. And once someone goes outside that box, then the room is stuck. Well, jeez, I met with him and he said, and they talked about this, and all of a sudden, you're gonna get the story about the contracts that's gonna mess up trying to do something really with the contracts. So I'm gonna advise us. I'm gonna suggest mister chair that the contracts should not be the reason you're sitting there. It's not my job.

It's not. It's not my job, and I I'm a member of the finance committee. And I'm not gonna get into talking about contracts. Contracts. That's to be put. Listening to them, talking about what they've done, where they're coming from, that'll help us better understand when we're sitting here looking at guiding principles of how we wanna move forward. But I would suggest very strongly, read the contract and understand it, but don't talk as if you're making a statement about how the contracts could be used. I'm just my suggestion, but just know things get out of hand. Yeah. Miss mister chair, I

didn't I didn't need to state that it I wouldn't have it interpreted that way, but I think it's just we need to understand the the contracts. Yeah.

Yes. Great point. I think both of you make a great point. It's just how how we how we move forward. Again, and I've been saying it it needs to be a careful, thoughtful process, and great point. You are a 100% right. It may create more anxiety and disinformation dissemination. You're right. But you guys should know the contracts back to my point. Like, you think, hey, we're just asking for forego raise. Be careful what you ask for because it might bite you in the butt a year from now. That's it.

Okay.

I was trying to get to that a little earlier. Was that I I think that we as finance committee members should read the contracts, know the contracts, and then offer suggestions suggestions on what some of the things that we notice and refer it back to the select board. If they wanna do that, then they have to do that through collective bargaining. And I I don't I feel uneasy personally, like, going into the weeds too much about contracts because in especially in open session, you know, it should be it's

it is a reason to

go into an executive session to discuss collective bargaining because it's Mhmm. It could be detrimental to discuss it in public. So I do agree that, you know, we should know the contract. We should understand it. You know, there's a couple of things that I've, you know, that I think would help the town long term, but I don't wanna say that in public. Right? So I think as either individually or collectively, we can recommend some things that we see to the select board for them to consider because they are the along with the top top manager, they're the chief negotiating officers of the town. So

Good to hear.

To understand the human element and to best understand each department, I'm going to go back and mention last November, I asked for very basic financial information. I asked for revenue. I asked for expenses. I asked for headcount. I asked for debt. I asked for retained earnings. I didn't get it. I was stonewalled by

the

very people in this committee. And what I would recommend now is that each liaison goes back to that recommendation and obtain that information and take it to your departments so that you can understand and help them with this problem, that is what you should do.

Anything further?

Moving on to public comment.

Mister chair, I just wanted to ask if there's been any updates on the finance committee handbook discussion. My

apologies. Like, I haven't even Oh, I got it. About addressing it. I will make a phone call tomorrow, and I'll see where that dues sits and get the handbook.

Okay.

I'll bring it back to the community partners meeting.

Thank you. That's it.

Any other public comment from the members of the committee?

I do. Thank you. We need to do this together. I appreciate everyone's time and assistance because

this is

a burden that no one person should take on. So thank you, genuinely. Well,

thank you.

Yeah. Yes.

So in regards to our next meeting, alright, I did I needed to get I did a placeholder for Monday night because I wasn't sure if there was anything going on at the select board. I

can give I will have a little more data. Again, I don't know. I I think limiting it to draft and saying I can at least give provide a few and maybe check-in if I think it's a pretty big select board agenda. Mhmm. I know it is. So I don't know if I'll be able to get back into you, but I can give you what I have. I don't know how you wanna do that, mister chair. But I think you people need to have the information that I have. I I again, this is a sensitive topic. I don't I don't think there's any way around it.

That I have a lot of commentary. People wrote some stuff down, and I really just literally listed the the impacts on the 05/10 and twentieth. Again, draft workable work working document. I I understand controlling the anxiety, but I don't think we should I think people should know what the impacts are. Like, what's the what's the potential issues we're facing?

So while, yes, it's gonna create anxiety, I'm not that too concerned with people knowing. Now the conversations I'm having with the department heads and really giving me an evaluation beyond what's on paper, that's really what I'm I I those are the conversations that I value and that I will keep confident. The the flat number and the impact, I I don't really think it's a trade secret, so I think we're good. But I think I can give you that information, and the more people that know, the better. The community needs to know what we're facing.

But the conversations in, hey, what do you really you know, like, what can you do? Like, it's a number on piece of paper, but, you know, having them thinking outside the box and looking different angles, and talking about, hey, talk to the union. Is there something that they can do? They're the best people suited to be able to get that intel. But I put down what you need to know, the the the numbers.

Mister mister chair, just a a question to Joe. Will you have more of that draft

I will. I'm just gonna add to this document. I'm it's it's yeah. I'm meeting with three tomorrow, and then Monday I have probably the big three or the big two. We might still have a little bit of one one to wait. So and I did meet with schools. So I did meet with a superintendent. Again, it's we're just looking at what we need to look at. There's just been conversation. There's nothing been put down on paper. So we keep going back and forth with ideas. Okay. So when I say the big three, I don't include the school. The

big one.

The reason for bringing up that I put a placeholder for Monday night is the select boards meeting, and I didn't want it just to be at a disadvantage and miss anything that we would possibly be able to sit with them and work with. But it's the will of the will of the board. We can still have that meeting Monday night and Thursday night if we say forego Monday night, give us a little bit of time to actually get with our department heads.

Can you work on that list? The guiding principles list, like like Monday maybe? Like, even if you guys collect the information, I'll give you a couple of little things and I I think it's important. I do.

Mister mister chair, I might suggest that what what Joe just said, we could use Monday night for, but also if if we start at 06:45 like we have been in the past, we can always jump into

Yeah. I put a place where we have to Yeah. Recess to the select board meeting if there's anything Yeah. Yep. That will be pertinent for us to Yep. Need to know. So just so I have it, so we can meet Monday. And Joe, you available on Thursday?

I'm available. That's all I do now. So I got no life. I'm tired. I'm working more than ever.

I don't know. Welcome to retirement.

Yeah. Next meeting will be Monday, 06:45. Did post an agenda. Okay. You know I what mean? And I'll post another agenda for Thursday.

Okay.

Thank you. Again, genuinely. Thank you. Thank you.

And take a motion to adjourn. So moved. Second. All in favor? Aye. Thank you.