Town Commission - Regular Meeting

All right. Um, Miss Brown, could you give us uh the roll call? Mayor Allison Dennington is absent. Vice Mayor Terry Cronin here. Commissioner Anna Butler is absent. Commissioner Tim Reid here. Commissioner Sher Corey here. Town Manager Amarie Smith here. Public Works Director Tom Davis here. Town Clerk Amber Brown is also present. All right, I'd like everyone to stand for the pledge of allegiance.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. We'll have a moment of silence. All right. Thank you. And then I'm going to recite the civility pledge. The commission and staff of the town of Melbourne Beach pledge to conduct all public discourse in a civil manner. The mayor and all members of the commission will treat one another with courtesy and respect and ask the public to do the same toward the commission, each other, and toward staff. We will be respectful of one another even when we disagree. We will direct all comments toward the issues. We will avoid personal attacks. All right. At this time, uh we do have uh time for public comment if there's anyone from the public who wants to bring forward any issues that are not on the agenda. Seeing no one who's interested, we'll move on to the new business, which is the presentation and discussion on basin 10 by Haley Ward.

Should we turn off the slides? So the slides will show there but I don't think that people would be able to see it at home is the problem or can or do they Amber can they see it up? I can but it's going to be a minute. So if you have other things to talk about first while I set up all of that

evening everybody my name is David Bagot vice president senior project manager engineering manager of a word out of our office. Um our f firm extends across Florida. We have four offices across Florida across the north up to the northeast of the US as well. Over 300 employees specialize in uh everything civil engineering survey you name it. Um I guess before I get into the uh

you can keep going too. We're we're we're grateful uh to one be able to provide services to the town of Melbourne Beach, but in particularly uh in this area of of expertise. Um me, I'm I'm a bit of a drainage nerd. Um is what I would class my classify myself as. Early part of my career, I started uh working for the state. Um and all I did 40 hours a week was review drainage plans and issue permits and um evaluate storm water management systems. And there we are. Um, so, so, uh, we're we're we're the right people. This is the right place. I grew up in the area. Um, my my parents still live in Melbourne Beach, and so, um, this is near and dear to me, I'd say, in in addition to the the professional aspect. So, I'm hoping that our findings that we go over tonight are informative, help inform the next steps of potential um, improvements that could be made in BAS 10. Um, and if not, dispel some maybe speculation of things that might be happening out there. um because that was really the focus of why um we suggested this scope of work as a part of our services is that in my review I saw a lot of history of things being done as spot fixes is things with maybe limited analysis of a bigger picture. Um in fact when I first started reviewing some of the old storm master plans that was the first thing that I I noted was where's the model that I can play with? I wanted to be able to to to look at the inputs, look at the outputs, look at the results and ultimately uh pull the useful information to provide solutions out of that. I I didn't really see that in in a lot of the work that was done by my predecessors um for in in terms of your consultants. And so this is is maybe a good example of of what you can do in the basins in town. Like this could be replicated in other basins if you have other areas that you would like to take a more comprehensive look

at. It certainly could be done on a on a larger ma um u master plan level. That's not to say that as a sales pitch to you guys, but I want I want that context to kind of um maybe uh carry some of the tone of what I'm going to present tonight. Um let me know when Okay. Uh you can change slides. So um before I go into the analysis, I have to address the manity in the drain. um the elephant in the room, the vanity in the drain.

Not the elephant in the room, the vanity in the drain. And so it certainly wasn't a part of our scope. Uh I guess I would say initially to to to uh come across this, but we were I guess happy to be a part of the solution. Um I our surveyors and on the left there um with the the orange headwear uh is Matthew Stafford and uh on the right next to him in the in the both in the neon shirts as Jacob Rashard our survey technicians who actually located Melby. Um as a part of our survey scope uh in Basin 10. Um we do both uh aerial photoggramometry LAR as well as field uh survey. Um, and so we were surprised to say the least to come across that. I I had gotten the call and and let Tom know uh and and kind of uh pass that information along that we had discovered that. So I just say this, I hope we did right by the town and and how our guys in the field handled that. Um, I certainly was unexpected, but I think it turned into a beautiful story. I actually ended up buying Sarah Russo's book for my daughters. Um, so it was really cool to be a part of that. Uh and like I said, I just I hope we handled that. I do touch on this at the very end of the presentation though was is not something that is the at the heart of what we analyzed here in terms of hydraulics and and flows and capacity. Um but I I I do have a recommendation. Go uh next slide please. Again, a little bit about my background. I'm the vice president and uh engineering manager of our Melbourne office. I have 16 years of experience in civil engineering, storm water, u you name it, uh in that space. Um previous work for the state reviewing storm water engineering plans um for many years. Uh I have a bachelor's and a master's degree in environmental engineering, University of Central Florida. And most importantly, I I grew up in that area

and so it's still close to home. Go ahead. Um so the purpose of our scope uh was to analyze basin 10 um in terms of recent um I would say observances concerns considerations for the capacity of the storm water system. And when I say storm water system, there's kind of two de definitions that you can have in in that in that if we were to develop a land development project, say build a Walmart, something to that effect, you have to construct a storm water management system that provides treatment and attenuation. Municipal systems tend to be mostly just storm sewer systems, which they are conveyance from point A, the point of collection to their ultimate discharge. Some of them have means of treatment, baffle boxes, things like that. But this particular basin doesn't have storm water retention ponds. So there's no no real storage. There's some sw some shallow swailes on the side of the roads, but nothing that we would call a permanent storm water management system that's designed to treat runoff. This is purely a system that functions hydraulically. How does water get from point A to point B? Um so that was a part of our analysis that was really at the heart of what we're looking at is how does the system flow? What is its capacity? Where are the problem areas? What uh sort of flood stages do we see? And then what scale of magnitude do we see that on? Do we see it for very small storms? Do we see it only for very large storms? Or do we see it across all of them? Uh I'll dive into that in a bit. Just a quick description of basin 10. Basin 10 consists generally from 6av to A1A to Fluty Athletic Complex and Oak Street. There's also uh important to note that Fluty does have discharge into the storm sewer system along Oak Street as does uh the St. Sebastian Church. So, we did make note

of that and we did include those in our model. We didn't just wall off and pretend that that doesn't receive water because off-site discharges are discharges nonetheless and they're important to consider when you're looking at downstream hydraulics. Next, please. So uh majority of the land use in basin 10 is quarteracre residential lots and the local roads. There is some multif family fronting A1A and then of course I noted offsite you have the park uh and the church. It's not located within a mapped flood plane. Um so what you have there is is uh no homes with finished floors below a flood ele below a mapped flood elevation associated with the river. I note that because there's two ways to really look at flood zones. Uh one is a flood plane, right? What is it when we get a 100red-year storm? What does it what does it flood out to? Um that elevation is an elevation floor. There's no roads or home elevations below that elev below that mapped elevation. And it's only mapped out in the river. So you don't have any houses sitting in the flood plane. No roads sitting in the flood plane. Um you do have coastal uh flood plane velocity flood planes which just means storm surge, right? And that that's kind of a different category because that's wind driven, catastrophic event driven, not necessarily. We got 12 inches of rain. The river may stay very similar static elevation. If you get a lot of rain on the right day during a hurricane, that's a little more dynamic. Um, but for purposes of this, we really want to analyze the capacity of the system when it gets rain events. And so we're we're really not looking at um anything related to like storm surge, coastal velocities, things like that. Um, drainage patterns are generally from east to west. So your highest point is at A1A, your lowest point is uh at Cherry and Cedar. Cherry and Cedar is actually a little bit lower than Oak Street. Um, and so that's what kind of creates the bowl of that basin where it

collects. It outfalls through Harbor East subdivision via one out run of outfall pipe. And and we'll touch a bit more on that as well. Go ahead. Next. So what you see here is is what I just described. That red boundary on the screen is the overall basin 10 boundary. Uh as well as kind of the bottom left and to the the very bottom is where fluties drainage basins lie. This is a map that we developed both with historical data and our updated survey. I'll touch more on how we did that, but those arrows indicate the general flow patterns. You can see everything going east to west confluencing at cedar um where rosewood or at a a cherry and cedar and rosewood and then u making their way to the outfall underneath oak tree. Next. So where do we start first? Before we even go and collect any field data before we start doing calculations we pry through all the historical data that we can find. I noted earlier that we reviewed the past storm water management or master storm water plans. uh the town uh and public works department was kind enough to give us recent improvements within basin 10 so we could look at those storm sewer improvements and and compare them to our own field data and then uh also look at uh other works done by others on the very far right there is excerpt from the plans and actually the second document over from the left um is from the county's Oak Street improvements about 25 years ago um to understand because a lot of that infrastructure is actually still on the ground along Oak Street and at the that we're basin 10 confluences for the outfall. Next, so then we take that data with us and we go into the field and we get updated survey. So our survey approach here was based around what we needed to do to build the model which was what are the elevations, what are the drainage patterns, what's happening at the intersections and what is the storm sewer data. So we used a mixture of like

I mentioned field crew, photoggramometry, LAR to build a contour map of basin 10. Um we also did specific field uh specific um infield uh surveying of all the intersections and field surveyed all of the storm structures and storm pipes to update all the data to make sure that we've got the latest and greatest. Where things may have been accessible in a couple structures or we field crew was indetermined to be able to get some data. We were able to go back to some old data, go back into the field and tease out what we think is representative of the storm sewer system. Go ahead. So, this is just kind of a more zoomed up. If if I was to have the the survey here, it' be a 24 by 36 drawing that you could pry through, but this is just a closer zoom up of the topography that we created with our our drone lightar. Um, you can see those are the patterns generally from east to west. Um, just a representative sample. So we look at that and we use that to understand where is everything flowing off the lots and down the streets. So we can take basin 10 and then cut it up into smaller chunks and analyze it on a smaller scale. Go ahead. This is an example of what we did at the intersection. So every intersection in basin 10, we did this picked up the storm sewer data as well as the um the elevations and topo around those structures so we could uh more closely model it at and and sorry can you go back? The reason why we did that too is because primarily at a lot at the intersections is where all the low points are. Um, and so understanding where storage starts in the basin when you start to get flood conditions is paramount to me. I want to know if it's coming out of the storm se, what is happening around that low point. Those are where the lowest roads are going to start to flood. Those are where the lowest homes potentially could flood if you have a big enough storm. Okay. So then we take that data. Again, this you've seen this map before, but this is

where we cut basin 10 up into smaller subbasins. So you can see some of the nomenclature that we have on there and we've labeled all the structures. This is the basis of our model. This is where we figure out how much area drains to each inlet and how does that then cascade to the next downstream link in the system. That way we can model it A to Z. Um uh understanding if it floods at that location, what does it flood to? how much flow is getting passed down to the next link all the way from the furthest upstream limb all the way to the outfall and we break that down I know you guys are loving this part of the presentation I'll get to the me the results here in a minute but I just wanted to be able to show that we we really took a critical look at everything um we we then take each subbasin within uh basin 10 and we do uh hydraologic calculations so the hydraologic calculations are important because it tells us how much runoff comes from each area and goes to each inlet. That helps us know what gets passed downstream. Um, so that's a factor of what your land use coverage is, how much impervious is in that area, um, what, you know, what type of coverage it is, road versus single family home, and then how long does it take to flow from point A to point B in that? You you have to think a larger basin, it's going to take a longer time to flow

maybe across 10 acres than it would two acres for for the same amount of uh coverage. Yep. Yeah. Just process-wise, so do you want us to field question? Do you want to field questions during the presentation or you might just prefer to wait till the end or uh I think the end. Okay. That way maybe if maybe some get answered along the way and then we can we can go back and revisit anything. Is that okay?

Okay. All right. Go ahead. So this is when the rubber meets the road in our model. So this is a program called Storm Wise. This is a a pretty standardized software used in the civil engineering world for modeling storm water systems. We're able to take all that data that I just explained, plug it into the model, factor in storage, how runoff comes off the properties, how long it takes to get from point A to point B, what the storage is in that, and then how all those links connect all the way to the outfall. So the next thing that we do in the model after we've got the basin set up is I care to understand and I I think it's important for for the purposes of what the analysis that we did to understand what level of flooding occurs at what level of storm event is it at 2 inches of rain 3 in 4 in. So what we did is we modeled um a series of storms. We actually modeled 10 different storm events in our model all the way from a what we call a mean annual. So something you would see have a 50% chance of seeing in any given year all the way up to 100 year which is a 1% chance in any given year. So 99% of the time you're most you're not going to see a 100redyear storm. You probably haven't seen one in a while but you probably have seen some in between that range. Right? So I think the hundred years where you really start caring about h how how is the system protecting finished floors in the basin? Um that's a catastrophic event. uh a mean annual event something you could reasonably expect to see somewhere in between like a 10-year event 25 year event that's probably something closer to that you saw last October like what they saw in Titusville under that same storm

that caused all that flooding up there around 95 and everywhere else in Titusville they probably got closer to a 100redy year in that whereas down here same storm we just didn't get as much rain um probably somewhere closer to a 10 or 25 year right so I think there was some some flooding in basin 10 during that period of time so that gives me some indication of saying all right let's figure out how what what's the capacity of the system we like to use the term level of service what level of service does it provide um so go ahead so this is just kind of a comparison of some of those rainfall events and so you'll see it's it's they're similar recurrence periods but they're different durations so a fiveyear storm and that's only one hour long and a fiveyear storm that's 24 hours long same potential to happen in any given year, but just longer durations. And the duration matters because a longer storm raining for a longer period of time is going to send more water across the basin over that period of time. A shorter storm is just kind of a punch in the mouth if I could use that analogy. So go ahead. So what we did is after we run the model, this is where we we start getting our results. the the results in our report are structured around what inlet and so you have to look at our basin map where that's located. Um what inlet is it is it referring to and then what time during that storm does it hit the peak. What we like to see is it hits right in the middle. Um so think of a 24-hour storm event. If it rained for an entire 24-h hour period, we would want to see that peak happen somewhere around hour 12. We generally fell in that in in all our model results. you know some hovering somewhere around the midpoint of the storm. Then we have the peak stage. So that's the actual modeled elevation that we reach. Um what we did then is we assigned an alert stage. An alert stage is when does water start coming out of the inlet? When do we when when does it you know trip that

threshold? Then the warning stage is when do we start getting water up at finished elevations of homes? And how we determined that was based on our survey data. We surveyed all the inlets and got rim elevations for those structures. And then um the finished floor was based off the contours around the homes. We assigned the warning stage to the lowest finished floor. So if I'm looking at an inlet, I'm looking at the at the finished floor that's right next to it because it's it's the lowest one in that area. Um and so we're able to then model model all the storms. And you can see the wise it knows there uh where you start seeing um things uh to whether it floods or not. That's all broken down in our report and I can touch on anywhere specific that you want tonight or allow you more time to look at the reports and answer any questions later. Um, and then the last part of it is that we we look at the time of um, it's probably easier to walk over. So this is when it stops flood. This is when it starts flood. This is how long it floods in the far end. And I we we provide that in the report because under more extreme storm events, if you have some you have four inches of flooding around an inlet for like a 24 or 25 year storm and it goes down an hour, that's not necessarily something that always demands the most effort, public funds, whatever you want to throw at it. It may be very important to somebody who who lives in front of it, but I think we wanted to make sure we gave every consideration to it. That way you understood, okay, this may only flood for 4 in for an hour is what the model says. So maybe there's other areas that flood worse for longer. Um it's a way to kind of prioritize things. Um not to say that none of it's important, but it's another way to gauge the uh the results. Um so this is just kind of a comparison. The reason I provided this slide is this

is a comparison between like I said the same recurrence so something that might only have 20% chance of happening in a given year but what's the duration do what you'll see is if it's the shorter duration of storm flooding is not as bad if it's a longer duration storm flooding's worse I think based on my results the sweet spot is if you get an afternoon where it's raining from 12 to 6 heavy all afternoon you know maybe 6 eight hours, 4 hours, something like that, it's probably going to start impacting the system pretty well. Um, a longer storm does have its its uh tradeoffs because the system has a longer time to absorb the flow, but then you have a longer time period that the area is contributing runoff to it rather than if it's a short burst of rain, that initial soak and some of that runoff's maybe not as bad. Right? So here's here's probably the the the real next few slides to pay attention to. So a lot of the streets that run east and west, so I'm talking Rosewood East, um there's not any inlets on them. It's long stretches of drainage all going to Rosewood in the intersection with Cherry um that that get hit with a lot of area of runoff. If I was designing a new residential subdivision today, we're typically spacing storm sewer inlets 300 foot spacing for quarteracre lots. Whereas you have some flow paths, particularly along Cherry, that's like 1500 feet.

So what that creates is you just have if you get a big storm event for a long period of time, you have a lot of water going down that road going to one inlet. We don't we see that in the model. We see that for the larger storm events that that creates kind of the spark of some of the flooding. It reduces quickly. I don't know that it's an ultimate culprit, but if it is something that the town starts observing like primarily on Rosewood because all those streets go to Rosewood that there's during heavy rain events there's ponding on the road. That's likely the reason is just because it's so much area going to one inlet and and and there's one on on orange that gets really slammed because as far as we can tell it's like 17 acres that it goes to and there's a 12in pipe in it. um uh in in so in a uh generally the one-hour storm events didn't really have huge impacts mostly because they're they're a little bit less rainfall as well. Um not until you get to like a hundredyear storm. So if you get a really intense storm for a short duration, obviously that's going to cause some flooding, but it subsides fairly quickly. Um and and it only flooded on the roads. It didn't approach any houses. Now the 24-hour storms were different. Um, and uh, at about the fiveyear storm event, which is about six inches of rain, that's when you really start seeing the road start flooding. Um, so 6 ines in a 24-h hour period is what that would be. And that is for most of the basins, I would say. Um, we like to see level of services closer to a 10-year storm event. Um, which starts pushing more towards seven inches, seven and a half inches of rain. So just a little bit more. It generally handles the mean annual which is what most storm water systems if it was a land development project or even some municipal projects. It generally handles that pretty good without much flooding. There might be some ponding around the

inlets but nothing nothing catastrophic. I think in uh April I was tracking the rain out here and I think you guys got three and a half across that couple days span where it was pretty wet and there was nothing that you know it absorbed that pretty pretty good. um you start pushing four plus inches, five inches in 24 hours, you're going to start seeing some backup. We good news is we don't see anything hit finished floors until you get to the 100redyear storm, which in older municipalities, older storm sewer systems, that's not that rare. Um you know, when you have the chance to build a something from scratch with a new modern storm water system, you have the ability to set that. But it's in my experience, you do see some of these older municipalities, older neighborhoods where those systems just don't have that capacity. Um, so I'm not surprised by that result, but I did want to make sure I pointed out that the lowest finish floors, that's not all of them. It's not everybody's houses are flooding, just the ones maybe around the immediate inlets primarily at Cedar, um, Rosewood, and then along Rosewood. those where the inlets are located, you would see potentially some impacts to homes under a 100redyear storm event. For context, that's 13 inches of rain in 24 hours. It's not something we see a whole lot. Um, and I don't think I don't I I I don't I want to be careful about saying this on record, but I don't think it's we've really seen it since FY. Yeah. So, um, uh, that that's kind of gives you gives you the the the feeling for what that is. Um I I already touched on that. The model shows that streets and the front lots at low spots do flood around the the fiveear storm event which is about 6 in in 24 hours. Mostly short duration flooding. So for a majority of the events we're only seeing it for 1 to five hours. Um not prolonged people's can't get to their homes for days on end. There's nothing that we see in the

model that suggests that flooding is flooding. Nobody likes to see it for any measurable period of time, but just for context, most of it's between one to five hours for most of the storms. Once you get to the hundredyear storm, that's eight that's a half day of flooding. Um, and obviously if it's clipping homes and hanging out at and that's would be over the road would mean 8 to 10 hours it's it's flooded and potentially over the over the road for that long a time at least as far as the model suggests. And I guess it's worth pausing on that point as well, saying there's always field conditions, things actually out in on on the properties, on the roads, in the system that um models don't catch. So it is as good as the as the data that goes into it. That's why we tried to be very comprehensive about what we built this model around rather than being speculative. Um but just I throw that caveat out there that the model is is the model is a computer program based on data that we put in. Um, but we're reasonably seeing results that kind of mirror some of the observances, which is I I think always good for the accuracy of MO and speaks to helping us pinpoint problems. Uh, there are some pipes that are sunk and cast below the structure. So, if like you look at our survey, you'll see a pipe elevation that's below the bottom of the box because it's just kind of sunk in it. Not a whole lot, couple inches maybe. It's probably because those box have been grouted in, pipes have been replaced. That's typical. I don't think it's really a culprit in any major uh flood concerns that you'd have. And then there's a lot of shallow structures. So, um just for context at Cedar and um cherry, you have the the the rim elevation, the the asphalt elevation are about here. You only have about 36 inches maybe. I took a picture of I had a rod and it was sticking out of it before you're at the elevation of the pipe. And so if you think about it in context of all the water getting pushed to those

structures, imagine draining acres and acres and acres and acres of land through your bathtub. I mean, that's what it's really trying to do. And so, not to say the boxes are those are those are pretty standard boxes, but the depth does play a role because if water can't drain lower than a certain elevation, it only goes up once it gets, you know, hammered by a storm. And so that's just something we noted as well is there's a lot of shallow drainage boxes and some I think have potential to be deepened which should help as well. Go ahead. So this is an important one. So I know I know cedar is an area that we we're seeing a lot of the concerns at um and I think I've at least as far as the model tells me pinpointed why. Um once, like I said, once you start getting to that five-year storm event, um anything in that range starts to flood the intersection. But because the profile of the road is so flat, if you if you go out there, you can see it visually, but we we picked it up on our survey. You can see how many homes it it stretches back to on that five. There's not a lot of slope on the road. So when the water wants to get to a certain elevation, it wants to go out. And it's not like don't think of it as like you have a cup of water and I'm going to pour that out and see what it spreads out to. When you have all that water moving through the system, it wants to just seek a level and it wants to get there anyway. It can. It's not like, oh, only so much water can spill out. It's going to seek that level. And so that's what you're really seeing. and and and in talking to some of the the folks that live there, um that's what they see during some of the larger storm events is just it that that what we call a hydraulic grade line spreads pretty far up the reach of that street. Um it's the lowest part of the basin, so it's the part that sees it probably the worst. Uh it's also looks like it's the flattest road in the area. So, um, that's just something that I think is

contributing to really the visual part of it because once it starts flooding and you see it really spread horizontally, even though it's at the same elevation, it it just kind of amplifies that magnitude a little bit more. And so, it's going to be sitting on driveways. I will say the these are in this area too, the homes are are not significantly elevated above the road. So when you do get that flooding of the road, it does feel like it's very close. Now the difference between 6 in in that area is actually a lot of volume of water. So if you think about your storage is like a cone that the first six inches that you fill up is pretty easy to fill up. But as as you go across acres and acres of land, six inches of storage is a a large volume. So you may see it quickly get up to an elevation that's creeping up the driveway, but to get that extra volume to actually get up to the finish floors is a pretty significant volume. It's a big step. That's why you really only see some of the more significant flood impacts once you approach a hundredyear storm.

That red line, the red circle on that chart. Yeah. Is that No, I just meant to It's just a highlight. It's not a It's not an actual flood boundary model. No, no, no. I just wanted to kind of circle and highlight the area so you could follow. Really, you can see this this contour. This is like a five elevation. So you have flood stage above five. So that's not showing where water is flowing. No, no, not on that. It was just meant to draw your eyes to it. Got it. Yeah, good question. Excuse me. Are you saying that the water doesn't? No, I'm not saying that. No, I'm just saying that that there's different magnitudes that it takes to actually get up to that elevation.

That that red line actually shows it should go all the way around Oak Street and then each Yeah, that wasn't the intent of that. Okay. Yeah, that this is I was just trying to draw draw your eyes to the the contours to to demonstrate that the profile of the road's very flat. There's, you know, if if you're if you're flooding and you're trying to water water wants to shed off the slope, right? The flatter that gets, it's just filling across it. So, so, you know, that I think I think we're saying the same thing.

So, I'm going to interrupt uh the conversation. We'll let Mr. Bagot finish his presentation and we'll take public comment. We don't want to have a a free-for-all.

Yeah. Okay. Um, so the the model does, even though I don't think it's an area of primary concern for the town, the model does show some flooding along Oak Street just because we did incorporate that off-site flow. A lot of that data that we used to incorporate that came from the county's Oak Street improvements. Um, could just be incompatibility with some of the information that they had. I you know if we overassume a flow rate from the offsite that has an impact. It's not really affecting what's going on in basin 10. They're kind of on two different loes of the system. Just worth noting. We acknowledged it. Um and we think we understand why it's showing itself that way in the model. Um I noted earlier significant amount of area over 17 acres appears to drain to a single inlet at Orange and Rosewood. Um the structure appears to have a small pipe for that much area. Um honestly uh most municipalities, DOT, um anyone doing roadway drainage probably not having anything underneath 15 in. And at that point the cost difference is no. So you might as well go to 18. Um just something to consider. uh if you we're upsizing pipes 12 in are have kind of gone the way of the dinosaur in terms of drainage in roadways. Um the we one of the things I really wanted to look have a closer look at was if the baffle box in Oak Street had any hydraulic impact. Sometimes those racks um baffles while they're good for for treating like water quality they remove solids and greases and oils and things like that. Um they become a hindrance to how quick the water can get out. So that was a one thing I really wanted to look at once we actually got in there with survey and I we got drawings from the county. It appears that box just has the baffles as settling um baffles in it and

so I don't it doesn't appear to be affecting it hydraulically. Um there are some dissimilar pipe sizes and inverts um not on grade. So you know you've got a pipe that should be flowing this way downstream and the pipe's slightly higher downstream. You could build some more efficiency in that. Um but I don't see that as being a while it's not desirable. it's not the main culprit. Um, and then just field observations. Obviously, you know, we we want to if we see I see things like that at the problem area, that's something you probably want to suggest not doing, putting yard debris on your inlets at floodprone areas. So, if we could encourage um folks to maybe store those otherwise, that would be good. Um the uh the baffles that are in those inlets at at some of the intersections, while they're great, too, because they're meant to kind of block solids from getting in there, they are a little bit of a hydraulic hindrance. Um there's some that need some maintenance that look like they're kind of falling off. Um just would be another thing that we would pass along to public works to maybe take a look at. Um go ahead. Uh this was a big topic when I think when we first uh came in and were selected for continuing services, but also when we were discussing the scope of this project, how we're going to go about it, we took this off the table initially because I think whether you had any failed pipes, crushed pipes, blockages, anything like that. If you showed flooding with a fully flowing capacity system the way it is now, then it's only worse after you have those issues. So, I thought it was important to um make that point that that the system that we're looking at is assuming that it's flowing free and clear. There's no crushed pipes, there's no issues. However, before you go and improve a section, I would absolutely recommend that you do at least scope that section primarily. Um,

you know, along Cherry and Rosewood, that's just where the heart of your system is. Um, and make sure that those are open. But before, absolutely before, you don't have to rush out and do it now, but I would say before you any improvements are done, take a look at that because that could reveal some other things that we couldn't otherwise see from our survey. Can't get to every inch of every pipe obviously um from from our our our surface level data. Go ahead. Um, the biggest thing I noticed in our model was that there's a significant, and when I say significant, it's a couple feet drop in what level the water wants to be at in in the various scenarios between the two intersections at Cedar and um, Rosewood and Oak Street. Once you turn that corner on Cherry and Oak Street, there's a drop in the model. you can see the elevations go down in this in the storm sewer system. That would be great to achieve that hydraulic grade line in those areas. And really the only way to get there is to upsize the capacity of that line. So you're either looking at upsizing that.

Sorry, could you could you repeat that?

Yeah. So what that what the model result suggests is that because there's a drop once you take the corner, there's a manhole structure right on the corner of Cherry and Oak Street. Once it takes that corner, the elevations in the pipes drop and the pipes get bigger there, too. Both of those play a role in dropping the water level in the system. It's more flow, lower elevation. It's moving water out quicker. And it's it's pretty stark in the model that when it takes that corner, the water level goes, which tells me that that pipe may be undersized. And that upsizing the capacity of what runs basically from the corner of Oak Street back to Rosewood. upsizing that is a main vein. I mean, it's it's pretty easy to see. It's the confluence of where all the storm sewer goes to before it gets the outall. It Tom, correct me if I'm wrong. Has that been sliplined or has it been because it it it's got like a it's got like a lining in it along that run.

Yeah. Yeah. Because you'll see in our survey, they actually note a weird dimension on the pipe and it's just how they measured it in the field. Really weird where they come.

Yeah. And it's it's because it's probably had some deformationation and then corrections, but upsizing that would certainly add capacity to that run. And we I did I did play with some scenarios in the model where where I just took that pipe and made bigger. That's the beauty of bu of having this model built is that any potential improvements you want to make, we can plug into this model and see the results relatively easy. Um and so in doing that we did see a noticeable drop in in the flood elevations or the peak stages in the system in that area. So you can you can upsize it with a single run of pipe or you can upsize it uh or you can add capacity by doing parallel pipes as well. That's that's another option that could be looked at. I think that's a priority in terms of helping the flood stages in the system over like I said maybe adding more inlets along the east west streets things like that. um because I think that needs that could be done regardless of that and have an improvement on those conditions and if those persist then you can you can look at that down the road but adding spread on the other streets is not going to add capacity to the lower end of the system. I mean that's that's somewhat intuitive but we've we've at least vetted it with the model here and we found in our results where it occurs. Um, and so that that's really I think if I could make one strong point tonight, it it's it is limited by the capacity of the trunk line that runs down Oak Street between Rosewood and Oak Street.

What is the size of that trunk line now? Right now, like I said, we we came back when the guys measured it in the field, it's it's it's so when we talk about slip line, it's basically where you kind of insert into the pipe there to make sure it's it's maintaining its integrity. They came back and they're like, "It's 32 inches in diameter," which is not a standard pipe diameter. You would expect that to be 36 inches. Um, as you take that corner, you start getting into 42s and 48s across Oak Street. Now, it would be pointed to this trunk line. So, you say 32 something. Yeah.

Is the current. So, and you say you're proposing an increase to to what size then? Well, that's where I was going with that with that next statement is that you're you're kind of limited in terms of what's downstream. Another kind of an anomaly that we found is there appears to be a 48 inch that runs from the east side of Oak Street to the next junction and then both in our survey and the old Bvard County drawings, the pipe that actually runs to the river is an elliptical for and it's an equivalent of a 42inch pipe. So, you actually have a pipe that's bigger that gets smaller. Um, it's on the Bvard County drawings. Um, and like I said, then we we our surveyors went out there and it was the it's the it happens to the box that Melbby was found in. You can see it. That pipe that's on the west side that heads towards Harbor East or into that neighborhood is kind of squashed looking. That's what we call an an elliptical pipe.

It's an equivalent of a 42 in. Um obviously if there was any if you wanted to really upsize that entire line you would take it all the way to the outfall and upsize that. That's a tough project to do now because there is a home that's I think finalizing construction right there at the outfall into the river. So you would be trying to construct through a seaw wall a pipe between two property boundaries is pretty tough. Um I did look at could you add another outfall to this basin? Could you take the upstream limb and route them another direction out to the river? same amount of you same amount of volume, same amount of runoff. It's just getting to the river two different ways. Now, spread that out. That would require significant amount of pipe construction cost uh and you'd have to go through Harbor East ultimately again. So, you'd have to try and secure some easement rights. Um where to run that through property boundaries or through rideaways. Um I see that as a tall order. If if if it was a if uh money wasn't an option, that that would probably be one that we could suggest because then you could take some of the upstream runoff that's going downstream, route it around it, not through the same pipes, and give it two points of alpha. It also gives the system redundancy. Right now, there's no redundancy in the alpha. So, if anything fails, you'd kind of be stuck. Um, but I just it's it's a one that's be really hard to get to. I just want to make sure I at least touched on it because it's one we thought about, but I didn't find really a feasible route that was, oh, why don't we just put a pipe here and dump it out into the river. It's not that simple. Um, primarily because of property rights, I think. Um, but that does seem to have a a a measurable impact on the system is upsizing that to something closer to a 42 or 48. Um it does add some some capacity to the system and and reduces that I the numbers that we were seeing per cedar was bringing for the smaller

events down below the road and then for the larger ones 100 years not flooding homes. So a good thing. Um go ahead. So I I say this that if if flooding along Rosewood is a frequent observance. I mean we the model does show it but at a certain magnitude that's kind of all flooding. But if it is frequently observed I would say your kind of your secondary improvement would to be to try to capture some more of that runoff through more inlets added on the east west roads. When I say that instead of having all this flow going to just a series of inlets here, potentially adding some here, maybe they're exile. Maybe they would work with a good beach sand soils that you have in the basin, try to infiltrate some of that, try to slow it down. That's where I think most of the the the slamming of the system I would say is coming from because you just have a lot of area going to one series of lines. Not necessarily the the the elevations downstream, but the bottlenecking of of where things happen along Cherry at Rosewood and Cedar and eventually going to Oak. Improving that capacity does nothing but help those upstream basins. Um go ahead. Oh, and there there there there are some I I touched on earlier. There are some smaller pipes in some of those inlets along Rosewood and the intersections along Rosewood. 12-inch pipes. I those like I said, I wouldn't catch me designing a new system with a 12-in pipe unless it was like a roof drain, something small yard drain, but not a not a street drain. Um, that's just an example of of uh what we were noting there. And you can see like, you know, one of the structures was welded shut. So, we couldn't really get into that. So, we had to kind of go to some old plan data for that. Um, but that intersection is one where

you've got some smaller pipes and a lot of area draining to it. My final one kind of coming back around to Melbby. Um, the plans that you see on the left there and and and I I'll walk over the screen to try and explain some of it. These were wooden posts that were going to be embedded into the river at the alpha pipe. You can see a 42 inch pipe. Um, It's a it's an elliptical equivalent. It's not a round pipe. Um the county did propose having some manity protection measures there. Why they're there not there, I don't know. Um because the county was the the permit, the applicant, the they they did those improvements along Oak um is my understanding, not the town. Um, and so I I don't know why they're they're not there or if they are. Maybe they they dilapitated over 25 years. That could be the case.

Um, but we didn't note anything there. So, of course, I would say if we learned a lesson with Melbi that um there are mane protection measures out there. They can be installed. It's a little tough because I I think there is a there's a there's a platform or a dock or something over that outfall now. Yeah. So, that's a little it's a little tough to get to. I know our surveyors had had a tough time. um getting there to shoot it. Um but there there's all sorts of different uh manufacturers that make them. Uh anything that is 8 inches or greater up to eight feet. So between 8 in and 8 feet, they can they um if you if I was to design a new outfall to the river uh below the mean high water line, you have to include those. I I don't get a permit without doing that. Old pipes, obviously, it's older outfalls. It's it's something that gets corrected over time. But I wanted you to kind of have a a range there. eight inches to eight feet is typically um when and they make them of all sizes. That's a that's a bigger size obviously, but it's um it's uh it's definitely feasible and it's it's kind of cool to actually we I've done them where you have guys that are they're underwater welders that put them on and stuff too and we get these videos. So, um it's fascinating, but it's a it's a big help. um something to consider not affecting the flood stages uh or or any of the hydraulics of the system but something that is uh something to consider for maintenance. So with that I'll close my long uh presentation there. I hope I gave you guys enough of a breakdown. I'm happy to dive into specifics, generalities, you know, any questions that you guys have, answer questions from the public. I'm here for you guys.

Thank you, Mr. Bagot. We would like to entertain questions, but first some questions from the uh commission and then we'll also ask the public if they could have some questions. I'm not exactly sure, Miss Brown, how to make that work. Uh would they come to the podium with Mr. Bagot or how how do we make that work? We can probably just have him take a seat and use one of the microphones on the side and then we'll have the public. Okay. Up at the podium. Okay. That Yeah, that that works really well. Okay. So, um I I had a a couple questions. Yeah. First of all, you know, you mentioned Fay, which came to my mind. Uh, was Fay considered a hundred-year storm?

I think in some areas Fay was almost a backtoback. Yeah. I think Melbourne got 20 inches of rain, something to that effect. Yeah. Uh, it just always sticks out as the one in the area that kind of showed us what a hundredyear storm looked like. Um, it varies, you know, depending on where you were in it, but I think we were in the teens for sure. When you mentioned that there was a slipstream put into the into the tube, did do you think that that has caused some blockage or obviously it's made the diameter smaller? Yeah, it was it it I just it stuck out to me. I mean, I drilled our surveyors on it. I said, "That's not a standard dimension pipe." And they're like, "Here's what it looks like." They sent me the pictures and you can kind of see it. It's not um doesn't appear to be like crushed. Um

uh is it made out of plastic or what is it made out of? Fiberglass. Fiberglass. Okay. And it may just be at the front end of it where it was going into the box where they they cast it in. It's really hard for us to tell down the pipe. In my experience, slip lining is, you know, they kind of do the full length of it, but um I would say it's the results show that making it bigger improves the system. I don't see it as like malfunctioning. Like it doesn't like water's going in, it's just totally blocked. I don't think it's crushed in that line. I just think it's of a of the diameter that it is today. Commissioner Corey, do you have any questions?

Um, in in looking at the runoff um especially on your recommendations where you have the blue arrows. Mhm. Does the runoff have to go down into pipes and go into the river or can the runoff be contained either above ground or in some kind of a mechanism just barely underground so that it's contained before it gets to the river with maybe some kind of an overflow.

Yeah. So that it if that the water would have a quick place to go and then if that overflows then it would go into like a retention or

Yeah. I mean ideally that that the conventional solution is that you build ponds, right? This is not a a setting that's conducive to that. It's the rightways are completely closed in by single family privately owned properties. Um there are underground solutions. We're getting into more and more of them these days. um in December of 25 the the rules changed for storm water quality. So anytime I design a new storm water system for a development I have to meet those new rules and it's primarily based around quality and it's pushing us to look at more of those innovative technologies. Um some of them aren't that innovative. Some of them are exfiltrations you pipes you can think of them as big French trains. Um that's exactly how you would want to design them though as you suggested is that you don't want to deadend the system. You don't want to deadend an underground infiltration system because if it gets wet enough and it gets the soil gets filled with water, it reaches its capacity, it's got nowhere to go. So, you do want that downstream flow through the storm water system. But certainly adding opportunities to infiltrate the water and store the water underground does nothing but add capacity to the system. Does that make sense?

I hope I answer. So, the land that we have um on the east side of of Oak um would that not be a solution for some type of storage either on both sides so that the water has an immediate place to go and then can um filter or percolate whatever you want into Uhhuh. into the river or so or never end up in the river just stay there but it would have a quick escape.

Yeah. So I'll say in terms of I guess the the focus of of of the analysis we remember I said we saw that drop as it the storm sewer takes the corner onto oak. So if we added capacity down there that may be downstream of that link that is

potentially unders sized and causing some of the elevated stages upstream of it. Right? Right? So if I added storage downstream, but it's bottlenecked, then whatever storage I had downstream might not solve the the the stages that you see upstream. And oak would be downstream in that case, I guess, is what I'm saying. So it's not a bad thing because it would add some storage to that area, but it's not adding it. I think you the the the strategy there is more effective when you capture the runoff upstream in the flood prone areas rather than downstream. So oak is not considered upstream. It's considered downstream to the tree streets, but it's considered upstream to the river.

It is. It is. But so basically all the water coming through the tree streets are going into the to the west side of Oak and potentially could flood the west side if it's not contained or routed either underground or above ground. Am I incorrect? and we have large swats of property on both sides.

Yeah. Um I guess I'm I'm trying to answer the question in terms of thinking about uh potential improvements or solutions and and that's how it's being asked, right? Um so if that is downstream effectively of the flow perone areas, adding storage, you you it would probably be beneficial for treatment of runoff infiltrating into the ground instead of just freely discharging into the river. remember that that's kind of the dichotomy of of storm water is that you've got treatment and then you've got flood protection. Treatment sometimes means slowing the water down. Um the the the better opportunity to capture water and simultaneously address downstream flooding would be doing it upstream of those areas. Doing it in Oak Street while it would capture anything that comes off Oak Street, maybe comes from Fluty St. Sebastian, if it's downstream of where that link takes that corner on Cherry, I'm not confident right here in this room that it adds the necessary capacity to reduce flood stages. We would have to we'd really have to look at it what it does. But being downstream of where some of the area focus is, I'm I'm not sure it would it would accomplish that efficiently. But if the river is really high, which it has been in some of our major storms,

the water can't go in it because it the pipes are are backfilling from the river water that can. So if if that water is trying to get through that pipe to into the river and the river is trying to and sometimes it's pushed by wind and some of our storms that water is being pushed up that pipe then that seems to me to be a a solution to maybe that issue that would keep the neighborhoods from getting

I I I see the frame that you're talking about. So that's what we we call a tail water condition, right? So if your tail water, your downstream elevation comes up high enough, what you're suggesting is could you spread that out elsewhere? Um you you got to kind of maybe go back to my analogy about uh cedar and that once the water wants to seek that level, it just wants to take that level up. And so if it is getting to that elevation when and you're adding that storage, you're talking about the entire river pushing its way in there. It's it's just going to eat all that up. And it's not so there's no way of having a

back because you're not talking about storing runoff. You're talking about now creating an opportunity for hydraulic water to come back upstream into your system and that's not typically done. Thank you. Storing runoff's more efficient for flood production. That's what I would say rather than trying to equalize a tail water condition because the tail water's kind of fixed. I think I I think Commissioner Corey's uh thinking about when we had the king tide this last season, it was a little bit uh uh concerning.

Yes. And and certainly if you have elevated elevated river levels that exacerbates anything that you know we were looking at here. Um but it's you're you're kind of beholden to that. If you create storage for it in your basin, it doesn't bring any water levels down because it's you're just inviting it in and spreading it around is I guess what I would say. Reducing flood stages means what can you do to reduce the amount of runoff? You're you're kind of stuck with your tail water condition is what I'm telling you. Um but capturing runoff or increasing capacity for to get out of the basin is really your your strategy to improve things in basin 10.

Commissioner Reid Yeah, thank you. Um, so in your I want talk about your modeling for a minute a minute. So for the the modeling you had to model the size of all the um all the storm water pipes, right? Correct. So you had So you were able to determine all those sizes. Yeah. Uh where I think I mentioned in my presentation where we had structures that maybe had like a welded shut lid and I couldn't shoot it. we did have to then maybe go back to older plans and um draw upon that data, but it was in select circumstances.

Yeah, as I went through the all these little boxes that point to the the structures or whatever have information in them there, there's a lot of unks in there, unknowns. So, meaning you weren't able to determine what those get to them, but in the model, we we were we were able to kind of close those gaps with other data. Okay. um in the uh on on sheet 13 there if if we can go back it doesn't have to but anyways it looks like the the the uh the drain that comes up oak and uh and meets you know where it's coming down from cherry that doesn't go into the baffle box is that is that what that is showing us that that which you said you mentioned a page number there but what what document

chart 13 I think in of the survey of your presentation here tonight. Oh, the presentation. Okay. The heading is methodology stormwise model 8. Here we go. So, it's kind of the intersection of um cherry and and oak there, right? So, and then it shows the the pipe coming up from the south along Oak there. And the end that shows the location of the baffle box is that. So that's my interpretation is the baffle box is not in the path for the stuff coming in. It's not. All right.

Yeah. It there there's a little inlet there that's like hangs off the back side of the sidewalk that's connected to it, but um the connectivity that we we found with our survey and looking at the uh Oak Street drawings as well is what led us to to map it like that. Um, also in those notations I saw a lot of CMP, which is um the the corrugated metal pipe um which doesn't necessarily hold up very well. Um is most of the piping in the basin there is it the corrugated? Yeah. say say uh east of Oak seems like most of that is maybe the corrugated metal and then the concrete reinforced is from

what the county did oak out to uh out to the uh basin.

Yeah, there's certainly a lot of it. Um there is some RCP in in the upstream limbs of basin 10, but um yeah, it was the it thing for a while because it's lighter, easier to install. Now that is we're largely you know if we're not using RCP we're using HDP pipe or polyropylene pipe. Um it's a product called HP Storm. Comes in 20 foot sticks. They cut the bands they roll off the truck and uh it makes installation cheaper, faster, the materials are easier to work with. But that's what that was back then. It it had a has a lifespan, you know, um it's not a hundred years as some other pipe materials are.

So it's like fail over time. So, do you think we're likely at the end of that lifetime of that? I think there's probably some runs out there that are. So, that trunk line, that's the kind of that trunk line there from the corner at at Rosewood to um to Oak there on Cherry. And it appears that one particular's got a little life support breathed into it in the past. So, what would be the recommendation on the material for that pipe? I I I I like I said, I like the HP Storm. Um it's an product that ADS makes. 100 year life. It's as long as you DOT um has approved it for use in their rideways. It's what the state state of uh drainage is right now. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. I just have one more question. I'll open up to the public. You know, when I was look looking at your results on on pageuh slide 17 and uh even slide 16, you were talking about inlet structures and it seemed like S103 never had any problems with flooding. And I wondered I I didn't know the detail why that one was so good compared to everything else. Is it

just a moment and I'll be able to pinpoint that one for you. S103. Let's find you. Okay, so S103 is on the um east side or sorry the west side of Rosewood at Birch. So the intersection of Birch and Rosewood, it's at the west side of that. Um likely just because of the the relative I mean it's close, right? Um, and and I'm trying to see which Can I see which? So, it's it's it's on 16 and on slide 17. If you look at S103,

are you able to pull pull up my presentation? It's uh it basically says I don't have my slides numbered on this flood flooding occurring. Yes or no? And on both slides, that's the only one that says no. And I thought, boy, that's kind of stands out. It's kind of interesting. Yeah, it's close though. Yeah, it's and it's just because it's it's tenth difference. you know, you're talking inches between the rim elevation and that. Um, is it just a higher elevation maybe? Okay. But if it was a few tents, you know, the rim was a few tents lower um or, you know, maybe it's a little bit of survey tolerance there, you'd probably see it now. And that's, you know, whether it was this much or this much, we noted it. Yeah.

Um, as as exceeding, you know, coming out of the inlet, I guess I would say. Well, I was hoping there was something better that we could attribute to other things, but thank you. No, no. I just I I think it's if you compare it to the inlets that are around it, so like S103 is surrounded by S105 and S104, you can see that those, you know, don't make it. They don't make it. They're all comparable elevation. It's just what are the elevations at the inlet? All right. Is there some comment from the public? Anybody have any questions for Mr. Bagot? Come to the microphone, please. And please, please state your name and where you live.

There's this is recorded, so at home people want to know who who's talking. And you got to hit that button so it turns green. There we go. My name is Chris Chem. I live at 1906 Cedar Lane. I purchased that house in 1999. So, I've seen a lot of storms come and go, and I can I have a few comments on my historical facts of what's been happening in that area, but I just have a quick question before I forget here. I wrote it down. Um,

to expand a little on what Commissioner Corey was asking. Um, I know that on the corner of Orange and Oak there are two quotes drain openings. Do you know anything about the capacity of those or because they're not working at all now, but they but they did when they first put them in. They definitely alleviated that flooding on on that intersection.

And that is a trade-off with underground drainage is the maintenance can be tougher. Um we we try to design them with baffles to keep things that could clog those systems up. I I don't I don't know every ounce of history on that one. I am aware of its presence. I am aware what it does. not aware that it's decreased in its performance over the years, but that is not untypical of underground systems just because unlike a pond, you can mow it, you can keep its storage when you start having fines clog up some of the you're relying on the sand, right? So, uh they can decrease inefficiency over time. Well, again based on what she had mentioned, um is that something because it's already there in place, is that something worth resurrecting?

Um rather than talking about new and you know just just flat out resurrecting what's there that that specific one or or within other areas? Oh, that the one that we're talking about that's defunct now the Yeah, it it's from what I know about that that that system is designed to just perk in place right there, right? Not necessarily take that capacity and pass it downstream. So, if it's flooding, it's because it's flooding on itself, right? I see that as a major contributor to the other issues in the basin. Didn't really add up in in the model that way. Okay. Um

I'm just Would it Would it improve it? I'm I'm sure, you know, pulling that out and reconstructing it and getting it back to its original design state would be an improvement. I don't know that it does much for some of the other items that we noted. Yeah. No, I agree with what you're saying. It needs to evacuate to the river, but in my opinion, every little bit helps at this point. And I don't know if that would be cost-effective to just, you know, restore that one since it's already in place. Yeah. Part of that part of how I I would note that or or I guess um address that would we need to look at how much area drains there. That's right. If you have a small little excfiltration trench and it's serving 10 acres, probably can pretty easy to overwhelm it.

Yeah. And then that water's got to go somewhere. So I but you know I'm kind of just taking the knowledge that I have. But uh if there was more of a concern there, we would have to evaluate it on a bigger scale, I Okay. All right. Um and then basically just like I said based on my own historical experience there um we went through the ' 04 hurricanes

back to back to back. Um we had no significant flooding at that time. We went through the '08 FA which they said was a record for Bvard. Never been topped or never, you know, seen anything before that since they started recording. Um, we made it through that. I won't say that it wasn't up to the houses. It was, but I'll kind of give that one a pass, you know, and and we did survive it. Okay. And that was a over a 24-hour period, almost 30 inches of rain, like you said, in a lot of areas. So, um I guess what I want to like reiterate is that number one, when we do or or I should say what we've gotten in the past 5 years is at least one a year where it's flooded up to our front doors. Sometimes coming in our front doors, always flooding my garage and a couple other people here as well. Um, I don't even want to guess how many millions of gallons are staged on that street in that area. Um, but and it comes from oak as well. So, my house is literally surrounded by four sides of water,

right? Yeah. The elevation drops off. Yeah. My driveway is like a canal. It just comes straight in from there. So, that's an issue I'm concerned about. But, um, what I wanted to to get at is that the once the water collects, and it has, like I said, at least once a year, sometimes twice a year. We've gone through this in the past 5 years. And when it collects, it dissipates, I'd say, within 4 hours. Exactly.

So, it's not a drainage problem per se. It's that the the system, like you said, with the small pipes, is just overwhelmed. And I think I noted our our recovery times are somewhere between one to five hours in the model. And that sounds like that's consistent with what you observed that once once the rain kind of lets off a little bit, it comes down. That's right. Right. So in other words, it's not, you know, like we're not in a basin where the water sits for days or weeks and won't drain. It goes right away. So it just needs, in my opinion, needs more capacity. Exactly.

Yeah. That's generally that generally agrees with what we're seeing. Um to touch on your first point about the four hurricanes, I don't know. I don't have that that rain data um memorized but it is worth I think always kind of considering and it's why I keep a a rain data gauge tracking app on my phone because I get these calls from all different directions either in sight side designed or ones that uh were were in the same position trying to you know be helpful towards potential solutions is to understanding what how when something happens how much rain did it get and uh kind of a a misconception with hurricanes is that they always come with 12 inches of Right. No, I understand.

I don't know what those storms were back then and if it performed well then how much it rained. I I I lived here during those too. Uh I missed a lot uh there was a a lot of downtime during that. But uh I you know I don't want to speculate too much on that. I guess I just wanted to make that point that I don't always like to draw comparisons that every hurricane is equal. Um certainly not in terms of magnitude of rainfall. Sometimes it's wind and it's tornadoes. It's a number of other concerns. Um, if you're really trying to do a comparison on that, you would need to have the rainfall data for how many inches. That's why, like I said, I always like to actively track it. If something flooded, if I designed a road, this is just a hypothetical situation. If I designed a road for a 10-year storm event and somebody gave me a call and said, "Hey, there's some flooding on the road. How much rain did we get?" That's that's what the calibration of the model helps you discern because then you can say, it's also helpful in advance. So, like between now and maybe some improvement in that basin, I'm not I'm not saying that there's one um on deck right now. This analysis was the kind of set the table for the uh the baseline out there, but that model that we've provided to the town does give you some indication of well, the weather station saying we're going to get six inches of rain this afternoon. That could be a prompt to say, you know, sandbags, let's have some pumps on hand. Let's put that water downstream. I mean, it does that that link that I'm talking about where we see that drop, that's something potentially to to to take note of because if you do have a pump to be able to move water, you can move it towards that downstream link around the bottleneck until, you know, maybe the system gets more capacity. I'm trying not to speculate on things to come

that that but I'm just it the model does give you a little bit that we've provided does give the town a little bit of power to understand. Okay, six inches of rain that's kind of where our threshold is. you know, or maybe even, you know, there is a difference between total volume of runoff and then intensity. Real intense storms will will probably show itself like you you described. It's going to back up, flood the road, get in the driveways, and it's going to come down real quick. A 10 inches over a couple days, three days, four days, whatever it might be, might the system might handle a little bit better. Exactly. Still a more volume of runoff. If it comes spread out, it doesn't seem to be a problem. capacity really matters just because capacity is what addresses intensity.

And uh one last thing on that, the pumps um that was actually done by the fire department in '08. They came down with a pump that they had, which I've heard they no longer have, but that definitely alleviated some of the flooding because they they ran it across had more capacity. Yeah, they ran ran it across Oak Street. The police blocked off Oak Street and they pumped it directly to the river. So yeah, the models give you some some idea to to to be prepared for those kind of circumstances. Um maybe even until an improvement can be made otherwise.

Okay. And then I'll just wrap it up with um like I said, I've been there 26 years and I would say up until about 10 years ago, other than FA, there was really no significant flooding. The the street would flood up to the sidewalks maybe, but other than that, it never came up to the houses. This is something that's new. So, it's either deteriorating system. It also may have to do with the construction that I'm aware of that went from the south side, I guess, if you will, of Cherry across to the north side of Cherry. They did a You can see where the pave pavement is new there. Yeah. Yeah. adding

and and they I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, they got rid of corrugated pipe that was collapsing and they put in a very small fiberglass type pipe and ever since then is when we've been having a lot of issues with flooding. So, I contribute it to that. You know, probably like you said, an inadequate size pipe as well as just the system deteriorating over the years. Yeah. Sometimes you and are you saying that saying that it made it downstream of those improvements worse? It made it worse. In other words,

so so there there are occasions where and I I kind of always try to pass this along to my clients or whoever I work for is don't fix one one thing to make that's going to make something else worse. Right? So if you've got an issue upstream and it's it's got not enough capacity and I want to send a bunch of water down I want to get water away from me quicker. we probably just sent it downstream quicker, right? So, that system is going to get hit a little bit harder. That's also that was the intent of what what we did here is if there are potential solutions to be looked at, evaluated, potential improvements to be made, let's plug it into this first and see that it's not going to pass more impacts downstream. I was just doing work for the city of Fort Pierce and they were like, "We want to interconnect this block to this block." I go, "Has it ever drained there before?" And uh we so we built the model. We've shown that I go it's gonna increase stages down there. I go can it take that? That's what we not that it it maybe it can't be allowed but can it take it? That's a part of it. I can't really speak to those past improvements. I guess just from the context of thinking about solutions that this does give the town some some ability to look at that

of doing work. Well, that could be scoped as well, right? that section. I think I think if there's any concerns about things changing in recent years, it's one of two things. Either performance of the system of new infrastructure that's put in or failure of old. Okay. So, the only way you tease that is to really go take a look at it. All right. Thank you. Before you go, could you Thank you so much. I just wanted you to repeat again where that location was where you you said that the fiberglass was put in. I cannot remember the year. I'm sure there's a record. I think Tom is aware of it. Um there was construction for probably a month and what they did is they dug up cherry um from I'm sorry what is your address that

305 yeah from 30 roughly from 305 well from from the uh the intake there the the storm drain at the intersection from that storm drain from Cedar or at Rosa you're saying it no I'm saying at Cherry there's a there's a storm drain on the south side a single drain Then there's two drains on either side. That's cedar though. You're saying it's at the end of cedar where cedar goes across cherry. Yeah, it's this one right here. Okay. That's the one you're talking about. But this cedar would be that one on the south side. There's two on that one. Yeah. Okay.

And um and they dug it all up. They they replaced collapsing corrugated pipe is what I remember what I recall. And um it was a very large corrugated pipe, but it was damaged. It was deteriorated and they replaced it with a much smaller modern polytype pipe. Okay. And and that's what I know obviously the capacity was diminished. Even though we had an old collapsing pipe, I think it was worked better than the small, you know, poly pipe that's now there. I don't know dimensions. I don't know that. I'm sure that can all be looked up and verified. But um that from that point on is when we noticed flooding just starting to increase and and really the rest of the people who are here, not many showed up. I thought there'd be more, but they can testify at least every year in the past 5 years and sometimes twice in that year we've had water right up to our front doors. There's there's 8 in scum lines along our houses when it recedes. And um I I'm pretty sure you guys have pictures, right, from from us. Okay.

Yeah. Too bad we can't show a couple of those now because it's Yeah, it's pretty shocking. Um and you know, we're we're always in fear of losing our houses. Every single time it comes up, it comes up. It's the most helpless feeling in the world. There's nothing you can do about flooding water when you're, you know, wind you can prepare for or whatever. Sandbags only work so far. They're not waterproof. they just slow it down a little, right?

So, um, you know, that's that's where we're at. So, we're imploring you to help find a solution. I kind of agree. And from a layman's point of view, the more capacity, the better. I mean, we we increase the size of the pipes or parallel them like he was saying, I I think we could probably solve the problem. So, I think there's and and also I think uh scoping the rest of them might be beneficial. Um because we can see what's really going on there. There might be some that are collapsed that we're not even aware of or collapsing. Just please don't find another manatee up there.

Yeah. Be careful what you ask for. So, um yeah, I guess that's it. Um well, thank you very much. All right. Are there any other com comments from the public?

Yes, sir. Eric Sander, 1910 Cedar Lane. If you may, I do have a video from October 2024. I know Chris just mentioned we've had one to two events for basically the last 5 years. I do have a video. I'd just like to show about two seconds to each of you just to get an idea of what we're actually dealing with so you can understand if if we'd be happy to look at it. Um maybe you could show it to us after the meeting because we can't show it. We can't show or can we Amber? Can we show it on the screen? Well, I I could show it to you after just so you guys actually get an idea, everyone sitting down here so you can understand. Sure. I did have a question for Mr. Baggot. I you know, we talked about the 5-year, 25 year, you know, 100year storm, which, you know, Chris mentioned too, that's not necessarily what we're really concerned about. And I wanted to ask you, you know, was there any modeling of maybe 4 inches of rain in an hour, right? or like those types of the intense which you just touched on

the and again as a as a resident of the area it's absolutely terrifying that it's raining pouring down buckets of rain for about an hour and a half and you can't do a single thing about the water hitting the house. Like again, water does recede in about a couple hours. But while water is waves are hitting against the house for about an hour and a half of time and you can't do anything about it, water's breaching the front door. It's helpless. It's terrifying. There's nothing you can do. And and I can't express how horrible every single year just to hope and pray that it doesn't get worse and it just stops raining. Um so my hope is and I know and I appreciate the commission, you know, getting to this survey. We saved a manatee which is absolutely amazing as a as a part of this has been great. So I appreciate that. Um just looking to get a solution and some type of momentum and runway. I know there's been some a lot of things in basin one. Um as far as I understand water hasn't breached houses in basin one. Water's breaching houses in basin 10, multiple houses. So I I just would ask, you know, I appreciate you taking it seriously, but really trying to get some momentum and drive toward a solution because again, it's a terrifying, helpless feeling year after year and again recent, not it hasn't been 30 years of going like this. Um, so I just appreciate the concern. I appreciate all the work that Haley Ward put in. Um, and is there is like a timeline of, you know, I know you're going to take everything in that was presented today and kind of what would be the next steps to try to look towards some solutions.

Thank you so much for your testimony. Um, first of all, um, just to let you know this is a a workshop so that we could get your testimony and get your feelings about this and find out from Haley Ward what they can do on what what they propose and what the recommendations are and then presentation then I I would think and and correct me if I'm wrong, Miss Smith, but I think uh the next thing would be is we accept these recommendations or we don't accept these recommendations or if we negotiate these recommendations in some way that we could then we bring it forward at an actual town meeting where we would vote upon doing this. Um maybe Commissioner Reed, do you have any comments on that as far as uh um methodology, how how we take something forward?

So yeah, so I do. Um I guess I just I'd love to see your video if you want to email it to me. I'd love it. Um our emails are easily found. So I think I the last most recent event was this past fall, too. I think I had copied you, but I I can send you the last few years. I can send we documented basically every single

No, I went down there at midnight whatever last time to to actually weigh in. So, um just to um for Haley Haley Ward, I mean, in in the recommendations, you kind of stuck this big asterk on the on the whole um thing basically saying recommending that the um the comprehensive um TV inspections be done before we really start doing anything. So, do you have any um idea on the magnitude of what something like that would cost to do?

We did we did include in our original scope of services and then it was requested to be removed. Um because like I touched on earlier in my presentation, we could kind of get the heart of get the heart at the performance of the system based on the size of the pipes, the elevations, runoff first as a baseline because if you have issues on a free flowing fully capacity, you know, as it stands today, I should say it's full capacity. Um if you have issues with that, then obviously it's only magnified if you have blockages, failures, things of that nature. Um, so I think at that last meeting where my scope was actually approved and we we we did this, we held off on that until we got these results um to kind of reinforce that recommendation. So that

sorry to answer your question that what we had quoted at that time was around $9,000 and that was getting a a professional um uh contractor to uh perform those services. So $9,000 to scope the tube. That was for your entire system in the basin. If we wanted to hone in on select runs, it would obviously potentially be cheaper. Commissioner Corey, any comments?

Um, what was the reason why that was removed from the previous commission? Yeah. And maybe I'm I'm I'm jumbling my words here in my explanation, but if we found areas of concern or areas that could be improved under the assumption that the pipes an 18inch pipe is flowing as an 18inch pipe, a 36inch pipe is flowing as 36 inch pipe. That identifies the potential capacity of the existing system. So if there's issues in that then obviously you would want to correct those at that frame of reference. Um scoping lines really just identifies impacts to that existing system. So it would just be worse. But why I recommend it I mean we we like I said I I don't think it was never a recommendation by us because it was included but it was taken out because I think the question was asked could we do our analysis without it? we could and we could identify um areas of concern or potential areas of improvement without that. This is good measure for analyzing the system on a deeper level before you make an improvement.

Thank you.

And and I'd like to add during that commission meeting again same exact pitch for the current model but then also camming was there. I did make a public comment out of the fact. My concern was are we not doing with only for you know again in the matter of cost and I completely understand that but getting a full comprehensive picture again we're sitting here months later we didn't cam the pipes and I get because of cost and that was my concern right and now we're back here where maybe we have to do another piece step two and then is there step three um and and really as just a resident it's it's it's challenging when those things are proposed and then you know we still don't have a comprehensive picture we don't feel like we're ready to be able to maybe make a decision because there's additions to that. And again, I know the job is extremely difficult. We want to every dollar matters for this town being such a small town, you know, not a ton of residents. Um, I just would, you know, implore you, let's like try to let's try to look at the big picture and get toward a solution where, you know, we're driving real results. And I

I'll say on on on that point that it doesn't change the results that are in this. Right. Right. Um, I would never, we're we're really not in the um, it's not of interest for a professional engineer to model a system that has a known failure. I'm not saying that I know of one. I'm saying that I would never go discover one and say, I'm going to model it with that in it. You would model the system as a stand because

chances are if a municipality finds a clog in a pipe or a failure in a pipe, they're replacing that pipe in kind. Right? So, if you're worried about capacity um beyond a a fix of a maintenance issue, you would want to analyze a system operating at its full potential. And that's that's really what we've done here. The model still shakes out that yes, at certain levels of of intensity of rain and amounts of rain that you that the run floods. Um I just the recommendation in the report is that before there's a an improvement made that those those runs are are looked at. Um because you you really would only be making improvements area that you're targeting to create an improvement in. Right? So analyze the upstream downstream links of that area for any potential clogs. That way that improvement doesn't happen. It can be done concurrently with that scope but you can't really identify what that improvement is without doing this first. And and I just have one final uh question is was the main you know all from all of the report and the results is the main conclusion that you arrived to through the survey and modeling is the either adding that larger pipe for the run or a parallel pipe that will basically add to the capacity that would pre you know prevent that volume in the future like is that the main driver of the results or like the number one thing

if I had to bangize

it you know I I'll I'll start back even before we did our our modeling. Um, in the Oak Street drainage report, there is note that the hydraulic grade line of the system in basin 10 is elevated above the road. In the one of the earlierations of the town's storm water master plan, they didn't do a full model like we've developed here, but they did do some hydraulic calculations and showed that an intersection had upwards of 23 inches of of ponding at during a five-year event. We didn't get 23 inches at during a five-year event, likely because our model's a little more dynamic. um just set up differently. It's a different calculation. Um but it shows consistency is basically what I'm saying. Um and that they all kind of point to the same thing is that at the lowest area of the basin where everything comes together, if it can get out quicker, that's you know the intuitive solution and model results point to that. Upsizing that pipe certainly points to that. What really stuck out to me was, like I said, those pipes get larger and they're at lower elevations as they turn that corner on Oak Street. Um, it does show an improvement if you upsize that and and potentially lower that pipe elevation. Remember, I said those boxes, the drainage inlets are pretty shallow at that intersection. So imagine everything through basin 10 that come that drains to that point is trying to fight its way through a bathtub into a you know two 18inch pipes and then it gets to the other side of the road the pipe gets a little bit bigger but if you upsize those intersections get it flowing downstream. It looks like the downstream capacity has enough to where it's not adversely impacted. So the the run that runs from Oak Street out to Harbor East. There's no it's not like we're forcing water down there and we're going to cause flooding down there. The model doesn't doesn't tend to indicate that. Um but it does help the areas of concern. So yeah, in terms of priority, like you could chase you could probably chase a few different um things. There's always something I got to be careful how I say this. There's always something

that could be improved, right? Um but it is important to understand the priorities of the improvements and and so adding inlets along birch, you know, those things like that. Would it help drainage during heavy rainfall events then? Sure. We've not heard that that's been the primary concern or or certainly maybe not the overwhelming um one that gets voiced to the town here. It seems like it's more targeted around those intersections at the low point of the basin. And so that's not any any really any more complicated than seeing evaluating options for adding capacity there.

Okay. Well, I just want to say thank you for your firm to do the results. The town employees appreciate just listening to this and commission. Thanks for your service. Appreciate it all all the time. Thank you so much for your testimony, Mr. Bagot. I I'm I'm sorry if I sound confused, but I'm just a little I'm trying to like I'm I'm thinking out loud here, but Yeah, it's something.

Yeah. But it seems seems like if um if you know that this is the problem that that that's capacity and that there's this this pipe there that is smaller and then once you get past that smaller pipe, everything's good on the downside. Um why would we need to even scope it if we know it's small and that this is the root of the problem? what what what do we gain except to maybe find out that part part of the pipe is already uh defective and needs to be fixed? I mean would we ever go and scope it and say, "Hey, guess what? We don't need to fix this pipe after all." Well, that's kind of why I make the point of saying that model assumes that an improvement can be made with it flowing full. Yeah.

Ident replacing that and identifying an issue there. Um certainly it comes out with the the the replacement of the pipe, right? Like if you if you if you upsize that pipe, say there was a clog there, it's getting replaced. So yes, in that regard, I can I can say TVing the line doesn't necessarily provide you any additional, you know, doesn't provide a huge benefit if you know you're already replacing something, right? If you're already got plans in motion, and I'm not saying that there is, I'm just saying that there if I know I'm already replacing a run in a pipe, TVing it may have a negligible impression on what we're doing. What I why I think it's a recommendation worth considering is some of the feedback of of things that may have changed over time. I think it answers some of those questions. I think it just it uh provides the opportunity to look at the system for those and maybe have some answers for some things that have occurred because it's certainly would be a contributing factor. So maybe some things that they've observed in the area. Um but if if we know that there's an improvement that can be made strictly by just improving the capacity of the system there then identifying a failure um once you already have a head full of steam towards that solution doesn't u doesn't do anything but it it would it would help acknowledge if there was issues in the interim time.

Okay. Sure. Come to the microphone please. I'm Linda Smith. I live at 305 Cherry Drive, right on the corner there. So, what is the sleeving that was done? I'm curious. I'm I'm really confused on that. You said they sleeve the pipes. In other words, add integrity to them. Okay. Yeah. So, they hold up. So, did they put brand new pipes in and then sleeve those or do they took the old pipes and sleeve those?

Yeah. I mean, you may be be more prepared to answer that than I am. It's just we we only looked at it for what it is now and noted um that it looked like it had some Then there's a couple ways. It does I I I'm not I'm not 100% um informed, I guess I should say, of what was done in the past. But from what we could tell at the boxes where the pipes tie into the box, it does look like either some reggrounding reinforcement around the the pipes were done. I mean, the ones that you you replaced entirely were the ones that crossed the road. Correct. Those weren't sliplined.

Um, yeah. It's just what stuck out was that our surveyors noted it was a slightly smaller diameter than uh a standard size pipe and the material actually looked like it was some type of fiberglass, which like I said, I don't know if that extends the full length of the pipe. Right. Something we noted. Right. Were you the town manager when all that was done? No. Okay. Yeah. Do you know the guy that did the last Do you know did you look up the company that did that last contractor? Yeah. No, you don't you don't know who it was.

Um because I I heard from somebody that they didn't even have a contract with this guy because I'm like, well, if he messed up, why don't you call him back and tell him to fix it, right? You know, so going forward. So, in other words, like a lot of and I know you guys a lot of you guys weren't here when all that happened, but I'm thinking who does that? like who who who doesn't have a contract and gives thousands of dollars to somebody and then it doesn't work the improvement that was supposed to. But I have to reiterate what my neighbors said, which is we never really had this issue prior to them making that drain smaller so it can't take in the volume of water that's coming down. You know, it just can't because it needs to be bigger. So, when you said $9,000, did you mean you're going to the entire system you're going to scope for $9,000 or just one block?

Yeah. Previously, we we had worked up a quote getting the entire sewer system TV inspected in basin 10. So, the entire storm system of Melbourne Beach would rain. Not an entire Melbourne Beach, just basin 10. Oh, just basin 10. So, how many how many square feet is that? Like, would you know off hand? Uh, the basin like what are you charging per square foot? They they do it by linear feet of pipe and number of boxes, right? Yeah. So every everywhere would be a little bit different. So you could narrow the scope to this 400 ft of pipe in four boxes if you really wanted to or you could look at it comprehensively and that changes the price. Okay. And do you give any warranty on your work on our work as in terms of the engineering?

Yeah. Like just suppose in five years your pipe breaks and it needs to be replaced. The engineer record I sign and seal the design of it. Okay. So, I'm not the one that actually constructs it. So, the my plans that I design then get passed off to a contractor who well it gets put out to bid and then they select a contractor who bids bids the plans. Okay. Um and then performs that work. So, they carry their their warranty liability associated with their contract and then I carry my liability under me under under my license as the engineer for the design, right? For the physical work. Okay. And do they normally do you know if the contractors normally warrantee their work? Yeah, normally normally they do because we didn't get a warrant a little bit differently. So we didn't get a warranty from the last guy.

I don't want I can't speak to anything. I don't know if you could find him and see if there's a policy see if he has an insurance policy because we could probably get a lot of money back from that. So I apologize. I'm not uh up to date on the history of it. But we could we could we could look into that and see if there's something something there. But I don't want to cast dispersions without knowing anything really. I want to make sure that I I didn't answer in that that way either that I'm speculating on what was done.

And the last thing I wanted to ask you and thank you for being here by the way. Um total failure. You got me on that one. Total failure. How often do you see a total failure uh of So if you're saying that if if there was a total failure in basin 10 basically all our houses would get flooded, right? No, I don't think I can project that statement the way you just worded it. Okay. Uh if I may, I think you were referring to when you were talking about there's no redundancy. Yes. Yeah. We're the only outlet.

Correct. Yes. So that water may not be able to get out through that means of conveyance the pipe if there was some means of failure there. Right. It's always good to try and build in some redundancy, but it's not that rare that the final outfall is is the the ultimate pipe. Um, especially municipal settings. Usually, it's multiple basins with multiple outfalls. So, basin 10 has one outfall. It's just, you know, it doesn't have it doesn't have an extra one. I guess that's the only point that I was making there. If say your the outfall collapsed that goes underneath Oak Street and that was the one pipe to get out, uh what would likely happen is the areas would flood until they spilled over the cresting elevations of the street and that just got further passed down the roads.

Yeah. So like if it flooded at Cedar and Cherry, right, enough to crest Oak Street, then it that would just get passed downstream that way rather than through the pipes. So that doesn't necessarily mean that every single p every single home in the basin is going to flood, right? Um, it just means that that the the water finds its way out on other means,

right? And so the and the other thing I I did like what you said about the the I guess extra drainage on Oak Street. I think that wouldn't hurt. I don't know what how cost effective it is, but I do think the main problem for our block is whoever did that going back, how many years ago? Maybe 12 years ago, 15 years ago. I mean, he he really botched it because we have had nothing but problems. I mean, I get I literally have panic attack when it rains. When I hear the the rain, I'm like, "Oh my god." I'm like I get I go into a panic attack. So, the other thing I wanted to say is we don't they they do have drains on the end of uh Orange where it comes out on Oak Street. There's like these little drain but they're always clogged. I've called the people up at before a storm come and I'm like, "Hey, you guys gota, you know," and nobody ever comes to clean them up. So on each side there's like these little drains. We don't have We don't have them at I I know there's not one on my on my corner. I don't know, Eric.

You're saying the ones that are set on the roadside in the ground yours like a French drains? Yeah, the French drains. Yeah. And then there's another French drain around the corner uh of my house if you go around the but it's always like I mean I've I've went out there and pulled the stuff off it every now and then cuz nobody ever keeps it clean. So um and then some of the um the drains I see like like there's trees growing out of the drains, you know what I mean? Like you know and they it doesn't get rectified unless somebody calls them and then you have to stay on them to to ask them to do it. But um I I think that was all my concerns total failure. So anyway, thank you. Appreciate

Thank you. And um I want to stop having panic attacks. I don't blame you. All right. So uh next steps.

Oh, I'm sorry. Is there a still public comment? Come come forward to the microphone. Hello. Uh, Bobby Williamson, 505 Riverside Circle. Uh, just a couple questions. There's been a lot that was talked about. So, is the, and I haven't looked at the report, so forgive me if this is in there concisely. Is does the report summarize sort of a list of priorities and along with that like a a capaca a capacity improvement? So, I I we've talked a lot about adding either the parallel pipe um or a larger diameter pipe. Is that is that predominantly Sorry, I'm looking I'm not Is that predominantly from like rosewood to cedar along cherry?

Mhm. In that toque pretty much. Yeah. Okay. Because that's where that where when it takes that corner and gets to the baffle box, the pipes start upsizing, getting lower in elevations. Okay. So, you could have a chance to lower the system. So it's like think of the flow line being lower for most storm events unless you so it can absorb more volume. Is that or No, just it's it's a bigger pipe at a lower elevation. It's going to take water downstream quicker at a lower elevation. Okay. Yeah. I don't know. I just listening to the whole thing. It I mean like I said if it's in the recommendations, forgive me, but yeah, if Okay. It's in the there's a recommendation part of the report. It's an 851page report that we put together, but in the in the front end of it, there is a recommendations that that outlines that.

Okay. Okay. Um, and then my follow on is I I think at the beginning you mentioned that fluty field, I guess, on the county side like ties in. Does it all tie into this the baffle box in question outflow through is a Harbor East? Yeah. So, and is that is there any impact from that like as far as a capacity problem? why we included it in the model because because obviously if you're you know think of it as as two things coming to one if this is overloading the same downstream limb right as the one basin 10's trying to drain through then you know h how does how does that affect it

where we're I would say the strongest case for that not maybe being where I would focus my efforts is because even with all that flow coming in and going out the same outfall we still see the jump in elevation along Cherry. Okay. So, and that all that's downstream of it. So, that's what I'm saying is that I don't think it's pushing its way upstream because the change happens as the system drops coming around on the oak and that all outflows through the it was like the the 42 inch elliptical. Okay. Okay. Yes, sir. Okay. All my questions. Just want to make sure those were concisely laid out because there's been a lot of back

we I I scrutinized that. We we surveyed ourselves and then we compared a lot of the asbuilt data and tried to vet as best as we could to build an accurate and it and it sounds too like the cam so your model is sort of nominal assuming that the pipe sizes that you've assumed are correct and hand and so this I guess the getting a visual of that would just from my understanding would just tell you if you're if you were operating at full capacity or if you've got some restrictions in the system that in the existing system in the existing yeah if we taking a link. If we're taking a link and upsizing it and it's getting replaced anyways, then you're by by doing the act of replacing the pipe, you're fixing a failure anyways if it was there or not.

Sure. But it could I mean, if you were to scope the system, you could identify other areas that you that weren't necessarily on the radar. Yeah, sure. Definitely. Yeah. If there was other other spot fixes that could be made, things that we couldn't tell from u our survey data or any other data that we had. Okay. All right. be more comprehensive is what what it would be. Thanks for the time. Thank you. Okay, come on. Come on down. Um, this question is maybe helpful to you. I noticed in your presentation you were mentioning rosewood a lot,

you know, with your models. Um, in actuality, to my knowledge, rosewood does not have any significant flooding. it kind of bypasses and all ends up in the Cedar area. So, okay. I didn't know. So, so I I note that in the report that that may be like a a physical um might be somewhat of a I don't want to use the word disconnect, but might be one of those situations where you've got the model and then you've got some some reality going on out there where could there be a magnitude storm event where some of that gets passed downstream say overland versus through the storm system? I I can't rule that out. Okay. I just wanted you to be aware of that. Yeah. No, no. That's why in terms of talking priorities here, I I've not I've not tried to put that ahead of adding capacity downstream. Okay.

Okay. I'm sure there's f things that could be done to improve those areas. And it just sticks out as me as as a drainage engineer is long flow paths, big contributing areas going to single inlets is usually not efficient. If there's not repeated issues there, then I wouldn't focus any time, efforts, money towards that. Okay.

It can be and it can be done later. Okay. Okay. U my last question is I think to the commission. Um and maybe you can chime in on this because I'm really not up to speed or educated on what actually happens, but I know that the system is maintained sometimes. I see those big vacuum trucks that go around and, you know, suck out the storm drains or whatever they're doing there. Is that something we could possibly get done this se before this season starts since obviously no work is going to um you know start. So could we at least get them at their optimal level? Make sure there's no blockages or whatever those trucks do as far as the the big vacuum trucks.

So I want to ask Tom about vacuum trucks. I'm not I'm not familiar about them. Yeah. What do those do, Tom? And what those David the one by by you that affects your whole area is a huge box. When we joined in with the county to allow that water to come north, they Bvard County built a very large baffle box. Yes. Very large. The junction where phasing 10 ties in with Oak Street is what you're saying, right? Correct. So they clean that. It's they they back the county. Yes sir.

Okay. Uh the baffle boxes are what we and you know I kind of those French drains are cleaned annually because nobody gets that much in them. Yeah, we do. I do. Like I said, those are those are pretty useless. Now, I would be interested in Miss Smith pointing out the exact one that she finds growing out all the time. I'd like maybe I missed it, but uh any rate uh so so would the county coming to do that be beneficial? Yeah. What what they do is I they have one at Orange Dave D. It's another mutual agreement in that one. Okay.

And I found out about a year ago that they were being charged and all they were cleaning was the inlet box for example at orange baffle box was full. That that's their responsibility. So I have a good relationship with them. Uh they will do it probably this month. We we try to hit May before the storm. Okay. But if quarterly is what they're supposed to do it. Okay. Could you follow up on that? Because I I I'll check in fact I pull the lid and look down at them every once in a while. That's about an it's a very deep box. Takes a huge the big truck to do it. We don't have that.

All right. Cuz like I said, every little bit helps. So, if we can at least get that done before the season, I I'll follow up for season. Might. Okay. All right. Thank you again. Yes, sir. And and Tom, I just want to uh thank you. Uh I know that there was a problem with some uh graffiti uh that was done on county property and you helped coordinate get that get that cleared up. What happened? Oh, you're not on the green there. We are always reluctant to to touch Bvard County property out of mutual respect. Yeah. They actually came out and physically did the painting. No, I understood that. But I understood uh that the town got them to do that. Oh, yeah. Our manager worked in Oh, very good. Concert.

We did. We did receive a lot of complaints. Oh, I know. I did too. Question about Sure. Commissioner Quarry. In your recommendations, you've got um slide 21, 22,

and um 23, 24, and 25. process is going to be I I believe that your engineering is has shown that um like slide 22 the pipe size um should be changed but it doesn't say unless it does in that 300page report what what is the linear footage of that. And so if if we had the opportunity to try to figure out what your recommendations would cost before we got a bid, just as a generalization, how how would have you laid the groundwork for us to know what those linear footages are? And do you have the ability to give us any um market costs? Not necessarily from a standpoint of view being the construction, but just as a ballpark what we're looking at. So when we get somebody, we know whether or not this is market.

So without having done the analysis, it was really kind of tough for us to quote what a design or or any of that would be, right? We kind of needed to do the baseline um analysis first. So cost estimating, final design plans, things of that nature weren't included in the scope of this particular analysis. That would be likely the next step. Um I'd be I'd be happy to work um with the town manager and public works uh director to maybe um give some idea of what some of those costs would be for say like what if we went to a 48 inch pipe from point A to B and and give them feedback on that. But we have not done that formally as like a final design, a final estimate, a final bid spec, anything that that would be a subsequent project.

In terms of of of of a recommendation, I mean that that could start at a smaller scale um before going into that obviously. Thank you, Commissioner. So, so can I make a recommendation here on on next steps? I think that's where you're trying to get to and Commissioner Corey was kind of leading into it there. So from your the initial uh presentation you gave to us the uh the first product was producing this this analysis that you did right and then and then there was going to be recommendations and then the follow my understanding was is that the followup was that was then if we were going to we would ask the next step would be you would create a design for the the recommendations.

Correct. Okay. So I guess um and then so for you to create a design you you'd have to come up with a bid to us to say what it's going to take you to do that design work, right? Yeah. We would we would put together a proposal for either incremental steps along the way or or all the steps however however we wanted to do it on what the scope for design would be and and assisting with.

Yeah. So I so I guess what I was going to ask I was thinking the steps would be is to have you do that in kind of an alleart fashion. So the the scoping of you know comprehensive or a limited scoping to the most critical part that you thought. Um then this recommendation on uh sheet 22 there which is the major trunk line there. So then that would be you know a plan a bid for what that plan would portion of the plan would be your or your design rather right? What I would recommend at this juncture is that the first step of that would be actually that we um maybe formalize the results of what that upsizing would be, which is as easy as us plugging it into the model and then providing a comparison of the model we've presented here tonight to what that improvement would be. That would give commission public some input of what we think that improvement could be before you chase it too much further. Um, I've done it preliminarily and it does look like it it lowers stages of

So, is that included in what we've paid for? No, not not for not for final design. Uh, all right. Well, then that's that's the uh sorry for me to make the recommendation without without I'm just trying to make the alikart menu here of No, no, no. And I agree I agree with you is that that's what it would be is that we we could we could task order it. Um, so you would only initiate a portion of the scope before you got any further. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, we'd like I guess so if you're we have this the the menu of things and we can choose or Yes. or further refine what we're we're going to do. So the other recommendation was then um uh the uh on page 24 Orange Street and Rosewood

Orange Street Rosewood is some um upsizing of pipes there. So what that plan would be then you know as a separate item also then

yeah I guess I would I would pose the question of you know we we see that there is some uh there is is some potential for flooding in the model there um has that been something that's been expressed as a as a priority? Um not that I mean we're happy to provide it. Um I just I guess that that would be my question as a as something uh we would handle it in a linear fashion like like my recommendations would be that the this overall capacity downstream would be you know item A that you would you would look to make an improvement on that certainly would would provide I it's it's pretty clear to me in the model that it's getting hit pretty hard because of most of the contributing area going to it. We'd be happy to provide a scope to it. I I just wasn't aware if that was something that while the model shows some some flooding, has that been a frequent uh at at Orange and uh what is that? Orange and Rosewood. Has is is that intersection does that get calls? Does that has that been observed?

Well, north of there on Orange is persistently soaky or soggy. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that may be maybe maybe a little bit different. I know I've I've spent some time out there looking at that. I think there are some of those shallow swailes there and there's a low point there. Um well I guess then maybe may not be the same same issues I guess what I'm saying let us to uh have you formulate you know the the bid for the design work you think we should look at in an alikart kind of fashion. We have not done that yet. H we have not done that yet for the for the final design. No. Right. That's what we're talking about. We're asking you to do that. Yeah. No no no I'm see yes absolutely we can. I thought he asked if we had done that.

No no no. Um, I'm I've been trying to make suggestions and I kind of feel like I'm not hitting the mark with you on what the suggestions are based on what I see in your recommendations. So, so I'm I guess I'm going to put it back in your plate and if you can come up with the alleart um bid or proposal for doing the design associated with those recommended things.

Yeah. And so what what what I and you can let me know if I'm I'm I'm hearing it correct is that for whether it's orange or cedar all that providing those what the scope would be for our services for design cost estimating all of those obviously the bid is it we'll produce an engineers estimate of probable costs associated with that. That could be one of those alocart menus. Final bid costs are when those plans go out to bid to a contractor.

Yeah. But we can certainly itemize if we tackle this improvement here this here the here are the engineering you know uh tasks associated with that at this location at this location this location we can work collaboratively with the town manager and public works to identify that. That way you have a uh you have a a a scope to to understand what that next step is and and associated cost for those commissioner Corey. So, can that also include above ground mitigation points for the water to go to or you're only going to tell us underground stuff? It's not currently one of my recommendations.

Okay. If it's something the town feels they want they want to explore more, I would I would leave that to uh to staff and the commission. Okay. Thank you. What would you like? What would you like for us to do now? So, I think that it really we've hit the ball back to you and we'd like you to pres present us uh with this alakart menu that uh Commissioner Reid is talking about what what your priorities are, what that's going to cost us to do uh to have your services to design these plans for repairing these the these issues. All right. And then we can move forward from there. Y

sense we we we actually can't vote on anything tonight. No, we can only we can only give direction. Yeah, I I I I at least from my standpoint agree that that's the next logical step here is that we've now set a baseline. We've identified potential areas of improvements now assigning um uh at least the consulting cost of those solutions and the orders of priorities of those would be next step. Fantastic. Can I make a comment please? Miss Smith. Um yeah, logistics lady here. Um our next um regular town uh commission meeting is May 21st. Okay. Um I think what we're we're not so gently hinting at is if

Can I have it ready by then? No, no, no. what what we need to know is kind of a good cost estimate for what we must do to immediately alleviate uh some of this flooding which I think is what you said was to um increase the pipe size and um because we are we are right up against the budget season and so we need to have that uh fairly quickly so time if we want to do something time is of the essence okay um I think go ahead

so I'll be I'll be careful with how I I you would this is me saying this the word must used there what we must do to improve it that the predicate to that is that that's already been decided that there must be something done it's not my place at this juncture to say that I do want to make sure that everybody's informed that there are areas that appear that can improve it. The decision of whether something must be done is I don't know necessarily mine, but my recommendations are that there are areas that can be improved. Does it am I am I am I clear on how I'm saying that? I don't want to come up here and saying this must be done. I don't think I' I've said that here tonight. And I think that's a collective decision. Um it does seem like there is some clear interest and desire to move towards that. So, if it is the commission's wishes and and staff's wishes for us to put together a scope for those improvements, that's what I I think I'm saying here. And then to to answer your question, um helping you guys with uh associated costs with that. Um uh I think I think there's some grounds for us to work on on some things before the 21st. I think I we'll have to follow up after this meeting, but and and see what that is, but that's maybe beyond um Commissioner Reid uh recommended, which was us to put together the scope for the next actual tasks. Um those tasks and final design and all that may push past the 21st, but maybe we can meet and see what we can do to help facilitate something for them. We can do that under our current scope.

All right. Any other thoughts? Anybody else? I I just uh thank you so much, Mr. Bagot, and thank you for all the towns people who brought their testimony on this issue. Really appreciate it. I did want to just while we have a couple commissioners here, and we're allowed to talk to each other uh in a public forum, but believe it or not, we're not really allowed to talk to each other about town business privately. We have to do it publicly. So, I just wanted to have a little conversation with you. Uh just to go over that, we have a thing on Monday. Uh Commissioner Reid, did you want to talk about that? the League of Cities uh uh meeting or dinner,

right? The the monthly meeting for the Space Coast League of Cities is next Monday. Um the dinner is I think 6 I think what um whatever that time it's in the meeting notice. The um yeah, so the Indie Atlantic and Melbourne Beach are hosting it at I think it's the Hilton up here beachside. Um, yeah, and this year India Atlantic is the host. We we talked about that the last meeting and

I think we the way I heard Amber explain it. We're we're co-hosting it, but they kind of flipped the responsibilities year to year. So the people who are sitting at the front door and taking names and everything are probably probably be in the Atlantic doing that this this year. So yeah, but I think you know as a part of the meeting that typically the the mayor or some representative from the town will get up and speak briefly. So I think there would be somebody from India Atlantic will get up and speak and then someone from the town would speak just briefly.

Okay. Well, it sounds like it'll be fun and and nice way to get together. I don't uh I was hoping maybe Ryan was would be here before that, but I just don't know. If we go to a meeting like that, do we have to notify the t the the the comm the public that we're all going to be at this meeting? Yes. And it has been posted. It has. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah. Anytime there's a the potential of having two or more commissioners at a public event, it does get posted to the public just to let them know that two or more commissioners may be in attendance. However, it is not commission related. So, no vote is going to be taken, no action is taken, but two or more may be in attendance.

So, the the question I really wanted to ask is are we allowed to talk about town business and and representation of of the town's people in that forum because we'll be meeting with Indian Atlantic Town Commission, town council, you know, maybe sharing ideas. Are we allowed to talk about that? I think you um Yeah, Ryan. Yeah, talking to other people on this commission, I would say we'd be under the same rules we are as soon as we walk out the front front door. I mean, you can talk to the other town members. I think you know, without worry. I don't Yeah, I would say so. Correct. Okay.

It it would just be amongst your commissioners that you wouldn't want to speak about anything that you could foresee coming before your board for a vote. Okay? So, you can speak within the Atlantic Commission, but if two or more of this commission is in the same conversation, do not speak about something that you could foresee coming before this board for a vote.

Right on. Thank you for that guidance. Really appreciate it. I also wanted to mention that we received a nice email from Susie Stark about recognizing ways this month and I forwarded that to the uh town manager that I think that's something that we should put on the agenda. I thought it was a nice nice thing that we could do. Um any any of you have any thoughts about that or we got a we got an email from the manager that it is on the

Oh, good. Okay, great. And then um we uh we made a plan to kind of work on a budget workshop. I want to make sure that we keep that on the agenda on the agenda. This is, you know, going to hit us like a ton of bricks if we don't get to work start start working on this. And uh, Commissioner Reid, I know this is a part part of the job that you enjoy the most. And I know I want to get that that going. Um, I don't know if I ever said those exact words. All right. And then and then and then finally, you know, on behalf of the commission, I do want to recognize a Amber Brown, who is going to be leaving us, who's done a wonderful job for our town, should be recognized, and and and will be sorely missed. Absolutely.

Thank you so much. And we give it a round of applause. Just really quick, I would like to say thank you to everyone from the commission, the staff, our residents. You guys are all wonderful. um and will continue to be wonderful and I will miss each and every one of you. So, thank you for the past over eight years I've been with the town. So, thank you. It's been wonderful time. Thank you. You never know, maybe we could lure you back if uh if if things don't go the way we'll talk about that. Okay. Right. Yes.

Well, thank you. Thank you so much. Um, is there anything else that we need to discuss while we have our our chance here? Commissioner Corey, you're good. Commissioner Reid. All right. I'd like to hear a motion to close the meeting. Motion to adjourn. Second. All in favor? I. All right. Thank you all. Thank you for a great meeting.