Planning and Zoning Board - Regular Meeting

okay will the Tuesday March 4th 2025 regular meeting of the planning zoning Board of the town of M Beach please come to order first sign the agenda is a roll call chairman David Campbell here member April Evans here member Dan Harper here member B kegi here alternate Todd Albert here alternate Jason judge here Vice chairman Kurt bin is absent Town manager Elizabeth mascarell here building official Robert big good here town clerk Amber Brown is also present next item was supposed to be approval of the amends they aren't ready so we'll do them next month next item is a public hearing on ordinance 20251 relating to building Heights uh my vision is not so hot tonight April would you mind reading the ordinance just the top part just this this next page okay next next page I don't know if it's the same but yes should be ordinance number 25 2025 d101 an ordinance of the town of M Beach Bard County Florida amending appendix a of the town code of ordinance is the Land Development code amending section 7 A- 55 building construction establishing maximum height measurements for lowest floor level at existing grade providing for conflicts providing for severability providing for codification and providing for an effective date we went over this on the last meeting and and I see there's not been any changes to it what I I had some followup questions on that shoot if

that's okay chairman sure I uh and I know Robert explained this to me last time I've got a handout here uh I'd like to just get clarification on maybe you can give Amber one of those too take one of these and pass it down and then wait till everybody gets one and then I wanted to go over this some of my artwork here what I what I wanted to get clarification on here and I think Robert can provide it is uh this is an example stem walls are not in this we only go by finish floor at finished floor is a stem wall also uhuh uhuh he's going by Heights okay okay well let let me can I ask my question okay and then you can you can uh correct me I'm just trying to uh get clear myself it wasn't as quick of a study so Robert in this example where you have two homes at exactly the same grade level given that uh one home is built at a foot and a half above the center of the crown of the road just kind of we'd call Flat construction or normal construction the guy right next to him decides to put a stem wall in and raise the base of his house up 3 feet another foot and a half over his neighbor so now he's going to start measuring his 28 feet at the 3 foot level correct WR just hey I'm asking him okay let him to say so the the maximum height could not exceed 28 ft above the 3T from

the crown of the road so what that's 31 ft right which would be the maximum height yes so yes that maximum height no because if you read in the ordinance 28t Max when do you start measuring the 28 feet after a foot and a half or after three feet over just let him ask no eight 18 inches so hold on let me let me read so in the event the existing grade or finished floor exceeds 36 in above the crown of the street on which the property above buts the measurement of the building height will be measured from 36 in above the crown of the street on which the property AB buts the highest point so in other words the maximum it would be is 28 ft above 3 foot of the crown of the road unless the existing grade is already higher okay that's 31 ft then that's not what your ordinance is yeah it is no it is you're you're so Mr Campbell goad talk about fish floor he's talking about no no no he didn't say anything about finey floor he 18 Ines above the existing grade you got your building official telling you it's 31 ft so so hold on Mr cam I wasn't uh and I was so busy today I didn't read this prior to the meeting and I do apologize any elevation you can see that oh I know about when the finished when the grade of a lot is higher we're not talking about grade here this equal grade wall stem wall which is immediately going to raise the finished floor right yes and so where does the where does the measurement start exactly so no Mr Mr Campbell's correct we could not exceed 28 ft from the 18 in so we discussed you would have to sh shrink your seil ceiling Heights on your second floors or whatever you

needed to do I know to be that's what you said last time so again okay so it's 28 fet from grade what do you what do you measure so I'm on my number in the house number two here where are you measuring the 28 ft from from my finished floor that's 3 feet above or from 18 in no what the current what the new ordinance would do would take the peak of the roof from grade not from finished floor okay then I misunderstood that yes yes so like I said before and it's easy too cuz when you first read it I it kind of stumped me for a second too but I remember the attorney and I went through that and and it was it was definitely better to go from grade but then the peak would never be more than 18 above the crown of the road should shouldn't we say that shouldn't we say that that it it actually does if you read through I mean once I read through it I understood it to be that way as well cuz it talks about like Miss Evans said um measured from existing grave and what that the reason why that was written that way is because it prevents anybody from coming in and adding grade but what it's actually saying is I I I think I see where your problem is it's saying in the event the existing grade or the finished floor exceeds well we had to add finished floor because there's some houses where they scrape it down to the existing slab so like the one 1609 Atlantic where they left the slab because it's on Ailes that was an ex existing finished grade so it couldn't be more than 28 ft above that so should it be existing add the word existing in front of the finished floor in addition to existing grade yeah we I think that's that's what we're asking is Mr Harper is that does that kind of add clarification to that uh state state it again for me

please what you're saying April well from what Robert said he's talking about this is for existing stuff so oh existing not not new construction right now we're in the event the existing grade or or the existing the existing finished so if somebody wanted to leave the slab and basically take the house off they couldn't go with 28 from that so Chairman's right this has nothing to do with building a new home putting in a stem wall and raising yourself up and then measuring 28 feet correct this is an existing finished floor correct I'd like that word put in there uh if that's possible it it is existing grade or existing finish floor yeah I'd like that can we add existing finish floor sure yeah that would satisfy me I understand what you're that's what's intended Robert yes okay so when we had existing in front of finish floor right in the event the existing grade or exis existing finish floor yeah and and what got me going with that is that one one that you guys approved 16009 where they left the slab because it was on augra piles if anybody chooses to do that then that is the starting point they can't go 28t above that from the existing from the existing that's their starting point I think what John was talking about is that if you have two new houses going up say and they're next door to each other they're on the same grade one person chooses to build to use a wall one doesn't is the are when you stand back and look at it are the roofs yes going they going to same yes and not because you you had asked me last time too so because it was kind of the thing and I was like no no from so the roof Heights would be the same so they'd either have to change the pitch of the roof to gain more living space understand understand I just

wanted to make sure that that the guy with the stem wall wasn't getting another foot and a half word existing is put the additional and that's what we were trying to eliminate was that that stem wall situation right in the case of the house over here on third where they put in fill dirt several years before you're still going from the 18 in above the existing correct Street and they would have to subtract from the height of the building yep the the can not exceed 28 ft above that oh because that was added Phil is that the exception acoss the street that from Crown Road that one measured still 28 goes down 3 2 it's still going to be driven by the crown of the road that was the whole benefit for that to eliminate that see we haven't had any any way to stop that until this this this would take it right back to the crown of the road which is the key if the existing grades at 3 ft doesn't it come out though to be thir don't you give him a foot and a half no you're not nope does that say that if it's it say 36 in if it's uh so if the current grade is already say four feet above the crown of the road that actually would penalize him because you're still going to only be a Max of 28 yeah where where would you start the measurement at 18 Ines yes you would it says here if it's 36 36 so 36 yes if the current grade would would start at 36 even if there's 48 yeah so in other words the one on third that was already like 4T for grade going penalized that foot out of the gate okay I understand yeah they're going to get penalized that extra foot understand I mean it's a benefit to them to be that high but it at the end of the day the roof Heights would be the same

okay I understand it must have roll okay thank you for your patience no absolutely absolutely you kind of stumped me in the beginning I was wait what but yeah well and I I think part of that is back many many years ago when we voted on the height restriction thank you um that was the impression all the voters had was that we you know we started counting at 18 Ines above the crown of the road yes um and I mean if if the road was higher from sea level than the next road then didn't make any difference it was going to be 18 in and I think that's why you've had some people get very upset is because of the confusion that exactly and that was that was the intent of it and and actually working with Coro Gorman he said after a couple of hours of really digging into it he understood how you got to that but the ambiguity of it and how hard it was to get to it needed to be cleaned up and I and I think back then they weren't building with a lot of stem wall type stuff either and so that's something in the last probably 20 years that is yeah all right so but we can certainly add that language for for the first amend I I just one more I'm sorry chairman shoot me um why are we doing uh the readings here isn't that supposed to be done at the uh we have to do ordinances that affect the Land Development code have to come through us first yes but the same readings would then happen up at the uh yes okay so any of these changes we can make before the second reading which is when the commission will vote on it and they're they're totally in agreement with with the same so and I'll certainly bring it up next commission meeting the change in the language they did make a change though um they wanted us to add a definition of

Street what the definition of street was so it wouldn't just be Street it could be Street alley Avenue a or roadway Alleyway just so it would be a broader it capture anything possible MH so it'll have a list of everything that street avenue allei Canal foot path foot path yes foot bike path so it's been moved to approve the ordinance as we modified it do I hear a second second all fa signify by saying I I those suppos no on to the next item is is accessory structur size so I need to make a a change to that the it's not 500 square ft the commission suggested that is an error on my part um I realized it about two days ago and it's 400 square feet is what the commission suggested oh okay that makes it that's what I so yeah pz suggested 300 I took it to them they they suggested 400 and wanted me to bring it back to you and see if that was something that was acceptable to the board so Robert was there a reason for the added you I can't remember a particular reason they chatted about it a little bit I think it was you know a garage if you added a garage would typically be 20 by 20 which is 400 and I think that that was kind of what drove him to that point I don't have a problem with 4 works for me originally said 300 huh you're the one who originally said 300 well we had to come up with a number then I wanted to get us the number I knew everybody agre I actually when I realized I had made the mistake I was like well that's a good mistake I think pnz be happier with 400 500 so I

kind of good felt good about that and a garage is typically 2 by2 so 400 so I don't have a problem with 400 agreed mine's 26 by 25 everybody in favor of not putting it in somebody make a motion I make a motion that recommend the change uh to the commission to uh 400 square ft for accessory buildings second any discussion or is too late pardon any discussion or is it too late no go ahead um did uh April did you give any more thought to uh at some point you have don't we have to re redefine the type of accessory structure that we're constraining to the size so that leaves out other types right now as you know accessory structure includes all I think we did discuss that and it and it was determined uh and it may be that we need to change the definition of accessory structure uh to accommodate for this but I I I thought we kind of we had kind of agreed that if it has four walls and a roof it's an accessory structure should we do we need to uh change that definition at all then or well maybe we need to change the definition but this is not we can't do it now we haven't voted up for discussion I see in addition to this I I see what you're thinking is a gazebo or something that's open on three sides we can add that or make that something different not an accessory structure right correct right kind of have two definitions rather than one that's what I was thinking too yeah that that's probably something I do need to look at in the near future some bringing some definitions to it because it could be outdoor kitchen it could be a cabana dwelling we've discussed that a couple of times in things like out kitchens and if they're you know open air and that kind of thing that that doesn't fall necessarily under this

restriction um you know just so and also keeping our eye on the the bill that's going before the state legislation legislator this cycle is going to deal with occupied dwellings and so it was suggested we get something now on the books in case it goes through different committees and they say well we can grandfather X Y and Z then we have something on the books yeah well that that's my so that was the urgency to get it through my preference for us to go ahead and get this and because if if we officially got it in the works then we should be okay it's been a while since I looked at that we're talking one floor limit right it well our our ordinance already says that it can't be taller than the ex than the primary structure so yeah so it's been moved in seconded to change recommended square footage to 400 square fet all in favor signif about by saying I I those oppos no approved next item is public comment well we got a lot of public uh you got a report um I will let you know that I thank you for um your zoning Maps because I did take that in front of boa and they did um um approve a new map that that that was the intent of uh the original Maps there were several there was actually one from 2013 that was in um the public records of Bard County which I couldn't locate but the town clerk did and um I was had the uh Town planner did a new map where all of the squares represent an actual um lot and it's much bigger it's some of the zoning was changed to

reflect what's actually zoned like that now parking lot so it's it's in the works I just have to have the uh mayor sign it and then it will be the a new we'll have a new beautiful map did the boundaries change at all on that one RS two RS once that happens is that something that we can get a copy of yes yes so thank you for that it was you got a report do you have a report just what I shared with you guys during the meeting that's it I have I'm just curious and it kind of goes back to what we were talking about with accessory buildings on first a there's a new structure going up it's a garage it well it appears to be a garage uh do off the top of your head do you remember what the square footage on that is oh I know which one and Oak uh you two two two car garage I want to say I I want I'll have to look at it and get back to you but I want to say like 420 two basically the two-car garage that's going to be their two-car garage they're remodeling the inside of the house yeah a two-car garage and then there's something an extension on one side of it it's best I can tell oh they're tying it into the prime AR to make it part of the primary so that actually would not be considered an accessory structure so it is connected by Common wall to the house okay and is I know that we had discussions uh a year or so ago about the lack of necessity of bringing certain things into us but I'm I'm wondering if that kind of thing is not something that that we would like to see uh when you start talking about this

kind of size and particularly if it's an addition to the house um certainly we you could have that go before the commission because they're the ones that voted on just the new houses coming um I mean I'm certainly hoping either way okay yeah yeah that's it that was my anybody got any things to be added to Future ratings do our motion to adjourn to meeting adjourn should have added well we I need I know we need to have