Board of County Commissioners - Special Meeting

welcome to our August 20th workshop we've got a few items but more discussion than there are items for sure so we'll go ahead and get started with our new campus update we have e-bikes report and the budget discussion and then agenda briefing so We'll start with the new campus update. Barry? Okay. Good morning, commissioners. Go on.

And before we get started, I saw one of the deputies letting you in, so I want to recognize the deputies now, because if I don't, I'll end up forgetting. So Sergeant Campbell, Deputy Mike Winnick, and Deputy Jeff Atkinson are here this morning. Thank you for being here and for taking care of us, as always. The floor is yours.

Yeah, well, I think we'll have some comments and questions for sure. Appreciate the presentation. Really well done and I'm sure we'll each have different sets of criteria to consider and look at and we'll get to commissioners in just a second. You know lot more modern versus less modern standing the test of time versus not standing the test of time. Cost you know the incremental costs for each of those options might be something that at least be considered at this point. Option one and two on the. It's interesting from the outside, it's one thing, and the inside, it almost makes it feel differ

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you. I appreciate you taking into account the comments that we provided at our last meeting. I really, can you go back to, I believe it was 2C? I like that. because it utilizes less glass. Glass is expensive. My question is the glass, is it the kind where you can't see inside but you can see outside? I'm only thinking about security reasons because the courthouse takes up this function as well as would that be us over here to the left where you can see a building like sideways? And when I say us, I mean commission offices.

Okay, that's okay. So I just would want the glass to be that non reflective where you can't see inside, but you could see outside only for safety reasons because then you could really see the movement of people throughout the facility. But I like the slant of that roof. I don't like the way you have that metal ribbon going across kind of looked like something just was plopped there. So I don't like that. Um, can you go to the one after this? Now I like that roof, but again, that's just additional glass, a lot of glass, which increases the cost of the project. I think I love the landscaping tha

It gives me... We were just thinking about, we probably should send out around ballots with explanations because I love your descriptions, but we're going to get seven of those. But go ahead, I want to hear them. We're taking notes. No, no, no, that's fine.

So I prefer the square. versus the round for all the way around because if it were only the judicial building then yeah i would go with the round um but i like the design and again thank you so much for listening to our comments and concerns and reflecting those here so um Did you like option one or two on the outside? I like option two. Okay, in the corner. Yeah, I like option two. I really like the glass. I like the building slope here because it's four floors. But just worried about the increased cost when you have another level of glass. So I would go with the slanted roof.

All right. So we'll go to other commissioners. From a more modern versus less modern and standing the test of time, YOUR COMMENT ON THAT REAL QUICK?

Yeah, so I ran this by several different younger people, and that was the same thing. It was more about D than the rest of them. And I was like, of course, I was at one or two, more of the standard. Not two, but I didn't like two too much, but more standard. But they're all kind of standing the test of time, to your point. maybe fours or Ds a little bit more, maybe a little bit more flair or modern. But you feel comfortable they all will stand the test of time.

But again, that's just... No, I understand. It's personal preference. Okay. Brian, did you raise your hand? I didn't know if you raised your hand. Okay, go ahead.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I really appreciate you bringing back some great options. I think any one of these options is far superior than the previous options that we were, that to me looked like something out of the Hunger Games. So all of these are way, way better. I like that grand entrance of option one, but for just efficiency, option two just makes a lot more sense to me. And I'm right where you're at. It's either 2A or 2D. You know, I mean, the simplicity of 2A is just, it just does what it has to do. 2D is just very, it's just very classy to me. So that's kind of where I'm at on the

Which one overall is the cheapest option?

I don't care how it looks. At least he's embracing his non-architectural taste. Commissioner Shearer, did you have?

Yes, thank you, Chair. First of all, wow, great job. I really appreciate the work because this is vastly superior to what we saw before. Second, I prefer the option one. The cost is good, but I think it's a cleaner look than the option two, which is... You haven't presented an elevation for the other building, and I'm worried about the conflict between the entryway and the second building, and obscure that elevation. I think you could get a cleaner look on the second building and the elevation if we go with the central entrance for option one. So I'm leaning toward option one. I haven't decide

You're leaning for the middle piece instead of the corner.

Right. The one in the corner for the second option, option two, if you put it in the corner, I don't know. I can't visualize what the other building would look like with that out there, and we don't have an option to look at, but I think it would be a cleaner option.

I'm sure they can provide us with that at some point. Yes. Okay. If we, if we come down to that kind of rustling between one and the corner of the middle, we will develop those extra. Yeah.

And I'm just assuming that we're going to eliminate the colony that was on the backside of the facing the, uh, Olmerton road.

Right, I like the focus that it's on the interior where people come, and so I like that. Anyway, I like option one. I really like the 1A. 1C is nice as well, but I don't care for the center, the option two. That's where I am. Thank you. The center being the corner, the one in the corner.

Yeah, I got you. Gotcha. Okay. I just want to make sure. Option one, two, and one, that's the location of the exterior piece, and option one or two on the design styles. I want to make sure I'm clear. Yeah. Did you have anything, Commissioner Nowicki or Commissioner Peters? Go ahead, Commissioner Nowicki.

Thank you, Chair. Yes, much better designs. I think we're all really grateful and appreciative of that. I mean, just over like the life cycle, I mean, 1C kind of, or I guess 1C and 2C, I mean, obviously is a pitched roof, right? I mean, is that metal on top? Yeah, it'd be a metal standing seam roof. And do any of the other roofs metal or? No. So, I mean, in terms of like a life cycle of like cost savings, I mean, you're going to have to appraise a flat roof, I mean, on what, a 30-year, maybe? Maybe you could get 30 years on a flat roof versus a metal roof. I mean, it would last us forever, you

we don't have that information at the moment we know the initial kind of upfront cost difference but not a life cycle yeah i mean i think that would be important like when we're making you know that determination if you know one c or two c cost four million dollars more now because maybe it's a metal roof you know versus you know a majority flat roof but you know when we have to redo a whole flat roof in 30 years it would be 40 million dollars then i mean versus maybe you just have to replace a smaller part of a flat roof on one C or two C may only cost $10 million. So I don't, I think that's

Okay, yeah, I'm definitely looking forward, you know, because I think that will definitely make or break, you know, what's going to be the real details is really going to drive this.

yeah home but uh yeah i mean i would just like to see i don't know if we can get that information of the life cycle cost on these yeah in the types of materials a lot of times they use that rubber membrane membrane on the top and they have a long life cycle and they're easy to maintain but it'd be nice to know that that that breakout yeah to know what what it looks like thank you um thank you commissioner commissioner peters

So I like the center entryway because when you look at your plan diagram, on the center entryway, there's plenty of room in that lobby area that there's not really a bottleneck. But when you look at the plan for the corner entryway, To me, it just feels like they're all going through that security and then you've got a bottleneck right there. To me, I see a bottleneck there and I don't see room for expansion. And on the times that we have a whole lot of people that attend, they're all going to bottleneck outside that chamber anyways. And so to me, I think having that center entryway allows for

And that C is going to have a flat roof as well. I'm looking.

is it more ornament would it also additionally have a flat roof underneath it um i think in the costing we're still working through that i get nervous when you have different types of roofs connecting and those little connection spots become problems but you know um what the heck do i know are we getting any input yeah commissioners i what i was asking um robert was

Were you finished? I am. Okay. Did you have a comment?

Yeah, thank you, Chair. So in terms of that, for like the rain screen, I mean, would it catch the water and then run off? Or we're just not there yet in terms of, and then, I mean, I guess, and then you brought up another thing, like the mechanicals, if all of these are flat roofs, we're putting the mechanicals on top. i mean are they all going to be exposed so like you drive up to the building you see big you know 50 ton ac unit you know they'll be inset and i think the mechanical footprint is minimal on this particular wing of the building there'll still be some equipment up there um so Yeah

No, it's a good question, but I'm looking at an architect with a design up there that doesn't show those ugly mechanical stuff, so I'm assuming you've taken care of that. All right. They won't show the mechanicals on those. I don't assume he gets us in trouble sometimes. So yeah, I appreciate that comment. And I'll just add in a couple thoughts. So just a question. On the outside of either option one or two, do we have coverage out there for people if we have overflow from the elements?

And there's not that much difference in the distance from the parking to either one, maybe a little further in the corner.

And so since I'm kind of an engineer, not by trade, but just by upbringing, I always look for, you know... so i look at the outside landscaping but i kind of like that the second design is that only going to be with the corner one that can work with both options okay so that's not in stone either way okay all right i didn't hear many comments on that um but i kind of like the little different different look to it yeah i'm i kind of lean towards one uh on the architectural designs kind of pretty simple, pretty straightforward, less costly. I was being pulled in directions for D, the halo, and t

Yeah, no, I kind of like I kind of like the you know I was looking outside. I like that middle. It looks better to me, but when you get inside, the inside seems more practical on two. I don't have a good enough feel for the flow inside. Maybe we could just have a brief look at the two interior. Then just get a sense of that because I heard from Barry from the the people that we actually do care what they think. I was teasing earlier. They kind of lean towards that too from a practical standpoint. Not all of them, I'm sure, but that was kind of the messaging. Okay.

which side of the buildings, the court side or the administrative side, is hurting for design space and do either of these options affect the space that's available for, like, are we taking more space away from the courts than we should by option one, and so we should move to option two? Or, you know, just one last question.

What's the width of that area that's coming through there? Are we talking...

So those arrows that are pointing down mean people can spill right into the court side. And that little area over there is about between these two posts. So that's- It's actually-

So is there a cost difference between the two? Because now you're saying you got more sound, you got more seating, you got more, you got more, more, more, more. And on the other side, it just doesn't sound like you need all the more, more, more. So is there a big cost difference between the two?

And the connection between that option two and the administrative building, no issues on connection and leaks and all that kind of stuff? There you go. Thanks, Matt. Oh, so Commissioner Nowicki asks and they deliver, see? All right, so we're just talking more room for seating in option two?

I was thinking more on the other side where you showed pictures of people kind of sitting in the lobby area. No difference. Doesn't look like that much difference in either one.

Okay. So I have a question. Yeah. So that's a couple times a month with the commission chamber. The rest of the time they're coming in and they're going someplace else. And in the corner option, do they have to walk significantly farther? First, you have to walk to the information desk to find out where you're going. And then, so now you're walking farther. So you're making the day-to-day people that come every day... walk more farther you know we're talking about that commission chamber is only four days a month but for the other 26 days or 27 days a month it's the rest of the lobby that's re

That's why I was asking about those arrows pointing down and option two over there, those three little arrows. People can go directly from checking in straight down. So it doesn't, you don't have to go all the way over to that hallway.

okay well chair i just oh sorry just for the record i like option one and i i like option the outside option yes i like option one the best i think it's functional i i just think it's the best way to go and from a elevation standpoint all the way around uh 1a or 1c i'd be happy with either one of those But if there's any chance that the mechanical equipment could be viewed from the ground, I would go with option 1C, which would obscure that we won't have to look at any mechanical equipment. I don't know what kind of, if that's where I am, so.

All right. So you said option on the exterior piece. You said option one.

I love option one. Okay. And the elevations in particular, I'd be happy with 1A or 1C, but if the mechanical equipment that's sitting on the roof can be visible from the ground, then we should go with option one. which would completely obscure that.

And since we've gotten some rough, just to finish the picture at this point, since we've had a $8 million cost versus nothing on the architectural scheme, option one and two, you said option two might be a tad less expensive. Do we have a sense of, like are we talking half a million or 250,000, you know? I know we're asking things you haven't done yet, but I'm calling on your years of experience.

But we're not talking about the same needle as we were outside, which is $8 million, $4 million.

And instead of three sides, you have two. And a lot shorter.

Thank you, Chair. Just one more question, I guess, on the site plans of option one and option two for the drop off. If putting it option two in the corner, I mean, obviously the site plans aren't to scale and there's no numbers on there. Would it be a little bit further? Like if someone gets dropped off in a wheelchair on site plan two in the corner for them to go from the drop off to the entrance versus like site option one in the center, it seems like it's a little bit shorter.

Yeah, I would, I would just be, you know, to echo commissioner sheer, uh, you know, points, you know, I'd be in, in favor of the, the center. Um, you know, I think it's just universally done. Um, you know, I don't see like a corner entrance, I think in terms of way finding and just, you know, the everyday person coming up to the building, they're looking for a center entrance and it would be less signage, maybe a little less walkway. Cause it looked like there's a walkway from the garage, which is next to the building instead of far away. which makes sense so it looks like there's a cover you

And you're on 1A on the outside? And the same comment about 1A, 1C? Yeah, I mean, I think... The air conditioning unit thing?

Yeah, I mean, I think the mechanicals are important. I mean, you know, if there is a way to look at, you know, a metal roof, you know, besides a rain screen, I mean, I know we haven't got into that, but, you know, you know, long-term that would be a lot better in terms of maintenance and cycle. So I just don't know if we're at that but uh well you know but yeah so i would be in favor of 1a um you know obviously there still needs a little more detail done it's not you know complete complete um but uh if there's a way to trim the the cost down a little bit on 1c maybe make the glass windows at t

versus maybe it says so long gated um it could cheapen it a little bit um yeah we didn't give you that option okay so you're throwing a lot of curveballs at this argument you know i appreciate your comment thank you sir yeah and i'm going to vote for uh commissioner vala now because um he obviously wants the you know i'm kidding uh cheap cheap so that's option two in the corner right yeah yeah I just want to make sure I had an option one a on the outside I kind of I I always hate to always agree with Commissioner Shear, but I kind of agree. I'm teasing you, Commissioner Shear. I kind of like o

To me, option two seems just the most efficient option to do. So I was between 2A and 2D. That's kind of where I was at. On the outside? Right.

1A or 1B? No, 2A or 2D. He was two. Yeah. I heard one, one. Hold on, hold on. That's why it was confusing between ones and twos because on the one or two, we're just looking at the outside piece. And right now I've heard two ones and two twos. No? No. I think you've heard four ones. I'm not talking about the outside piece. You like the corner or do you like the middle? Corner. Okay, so that's two. Two. So we have one. I thought somebody else had the corner.

Renee. Okay. We haven't gotten to Renee yet. I want to get back. Yeah. Okay. So you're the corner. But of the four that we've talked to already, that we've talked about, I think he was two and you're two. Right? And we have two ones at this point. Just raise your hand if you like the corner. And Vince Nowicki is a one. Raise your hand. So we have three left to hear conversations. He has a two, you have a three. You have three twos, okay? We have three twos and four ones. There you go.

Three twos and four ones. So we're going with the centerpiece on the outside.

Stop it. Well, four ones is four. All right. And so let's then we're going to talk about the architectural designs. All right. I'm hearing right now so far. What is your choice? And I'll know where we are. On the outside designs, the design.

A, B, C, or D. From an aesthetic standpoint, I like D the best, but that also depends on whether you can see the mechanical stuff or not. If you can see the mechanical stuff, then I would probably go with probably C to hide that. Yeah. but I think D looks the most classic.

So your preference is D? My preference is D. Yeah. Okay.

But if it's enclosed on the roof? It's enclosed on the roof, and you just didn't show us where to be enclosed?

So I'm not a contractor person. So forgive me if this is not a good question. Is there any reason why there could not be a enclosed mechanical room that is off to the side or behind rather than on top of the building? Because once you start construction, you can underground cables and, and you know, your have back system inflows and things like that.

The only reason I ask too is because sometimes when handbag systems start leaking, and you may not catch the leak, and then they kind of trundle down, and you look up, and your ceiling is popcorning. So anyway, but you guys, you know.

Yeah, so just with this little detour we're on as we're trying to get this other thing voted on.

That chiller going to be on the north, northwest corner, kind of up the unused area, north of the parking garage. All right, so right now I'm hearing one, I'm talking about the outside now. I'm hearing a D and three A's. So let's go to, you said A. You said A and C is what you said. Yeah, he said A and I said A. And you said A, and he said C. What's your preference, Commissioner Peters?

So I want to know the difference of the cost from A to C. C is four million more, correct, Mary? Four million more, D is eight million more, and A and B are the same. I mean, I like A and C. I like A and C. Those are the ones I like. So if you're going to figure it out that way, that's what I like is A and C. And quite frankly, I like C the best.

Yeah, I know. Commissioner Flowers, what did you settle on?

Cost-wise, I'll go with C. I really like... You said C? Yes, sir. Okay. Yes, sir. All right. I really like the halo, but I'm just concerned about the cost. Yeah.

When they did share that the cost was more, C is $4 million more, but I like C better than, I don't like the thing that they have going across it. It looks kind of ugly.

Commissioner Scott? You can move mine over to 1A. I mean, I don't think, I like the look of D. I don't think it's worth $8 million though. And 1A is perfectly functional. It gets the job done and it looks good. So just move me to 1A. Okay.

So right now I've got five on 1A and one on C. I'm missing a vote, but sounds like. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. You got all the cheapest. You got, you know, you got you in the corner.

Since my C has defected, I'll move over to 1A. All right.

I think we seem to have, 1A is the architectural style. And on a four to three vote, The outside piece is centered, not in the corner. And you'll be building the one out in the middle so that we don't get too expensive. Okay.

So I think the one thing you did here is there was a lot of interest in D. So if the eight million went to one million, then we'd probably have more. But as it stands, you've got your marching orders.

Thank you so much for the feedback. Do we have a total cost of the building yet? Not yet.

And that cost estimating will be building cost and then FF&E costs separately? Correct.

Well, this multi-talented commission is going from architectural designs to e-bikes now. So we thank you for your time. Thank you so much. And we're going to go deal with vehicles now. So appreciate it. Thank you all. Great presentation today and much, much improved. So thank you.

So is this the Florida law that the governor vetoed? So this is not law?

or sorry what the governor vetoed is outside of this okay so this exists currently so we can adopt a maximum speed of 15 on sidewalks we have i think 20 on the trails um is that right that's the current speed that's this current speed limit but we could we have the authority to change when we first built the trails there was no motorized vehicles allowed on the trails obviously the state change that over time and almost all motorized, except golf carts and cars at this point, are allowed on the trail, correct?

Okay, that's what I want to make sure. And right now at 20 miles an hour? and we're still traveling on Paul Causey's design of everybody stay on the right side here and yeah. So now we have the e-bikes at 20 and probably higher with the people in a wheelchair side by side. Just wanted to make that point again because I just don't like it. Go ahead.

So the maximum 750 watts is allowed on up to 750 is allowed on our trails. Yes. It's allowed in our parks. But if you get these motor bikes that you're talking about, and again, I'm looking at buying an e-bike. So these are the classifications that I would look at. Yes. But the things that you're talking about and some of the commotion that we've heard from are a different bike that you just recently described. It's more than 750 watts. It's faster than 28 miles an hour. It is not allowed in our parks. It's not allowed on our trails.

Well, that just cleared that up like mud. I mean, that to me is a real problem. I mean, that's what's elevating all of this is this piece of conversation that's gray. So I think that's where we need to, well, we'll go through the presentation and let's get back to that point because really that's our problem here. If we can keep them off the trails and keep them out of the parks, keep them on the streets, again we're talking about mostly our kids so i'm not i'm not void of that concept either but sometimes somehow the parents system the parental system with those have to come into play so it'l

sites and those a lot of those devices were outside of the legal you know requirement Commissioner Scott has a question yes thank you mr. chairman so Kyle this is for the entire country not yes state of that's correct I assume that I just wanted to confirm that thanks

And again, what we've talked about is all these the e-bike concept. And I look at that and you've got motorcycles. Obviously, they're licensed and only can be on the road. Correct. So this area that we're talking about that I just mentioned, that gray area is kind of in between the e-bikes and the motorcycles, because those those. can go anywhere they can go on the streets they can go on the sidewalks well that's what we're going to talk about and they can go in the parks they can go on the trails that's been the that's been the contentious area that little group of bikes yeah okay i just keep

That's because we didn't wear helmets when we were kids, so yeah, idiots we are.

My understanding has always been that because the Pinellas Trail is not a road that they can't law enforcement cannot write a speeding ticket because it's not actually a public roadway. So they're going to try failure to follow a traffic control device. That's correct.

So if you're 21 versus 20, you didn't follow the traffic control device, but it's not a speeding ticket.

I'm not sure if you guys recall, I brought and distributed little pamphlets that we received from the school safety transportation committee that I serve on where the sheriff's office provided us with a presentation because a lot of parents were buying their children the e-bikes to get to school if they didn't have a driver's license yet or whatever. And the concern and issue was some of the bikes were moving faster than what the law allows that they could ride and whatnot so the sheriff did say that what they're doing is basically stopping the person and having them reach out to the parent an

I don't know what the right word is, legal. They're not at the shops. They're ordered online mostly.

So are you getting feedback from parents that spend the money buying these illegal bikes? Are they surprised? How is it happening that there's not more regulation on that notification?

Is it easy for our enforcement officers to tell those illegal bikes by visual, just by looking at them driving by? Is it easy to tell which ones are the legal ones versus the illegal ones?

So if there was any kind of change, we'd have to look at it from a standpoint of... probably multiple levels of warnings, making sure the parents got the warnings. And if we do that, then they have to have an ID on them that says who they are so we can get the warnings to the parents. I mean, if you get into that in the policy side. I mean, I don't know how else you... You have to go to the root of the problem, which is the parents may be buying something they're not aware is illegal. Since it doesn't pop up on the screen when they're doing an Internet purchase, this is an illegal purchase. If

Did you have a comment, Commissioner? Just a comment. I just pulled up Amazon and just put in e-bikes. So there's a Varla M75 electric dirt bike with a 5,500-watt motor capable of 50 miles per hour for $1,799, and there's only nine left. So if you want one, I suggest you. Wow.

No, I'm not going to go on anything over 20. They're right here.

Wow. On Amazon. See, that's Amazon. And I guarantee I've seen these on the trail. They pass me on the trail. Oh, no.

They leave you in the dust on the trail. Right. Yeah.

Right. Yes? Yes. Are they legal in the streets?

What does that mean, appropriate things?

And these particular bikes, which are maybe easy to tell, I don't know that, but they're not really allowed to be anywhere legally if they don't have a tag. unless they're off road or if they're off road somewhere but not not in our parks not on our trails not on our sidewalks that's that's probably the case i i don't want to speak totally in generalities but probably yes that's why i was getting to the specifics yeah yeah we're bouncing back and forth i get that this is not easy stuff to understood i just wanted to kind of thank you appreciate that anybody else okay go ahead

Again, we're not talking young people buying a moped, and we're not talking about a motorcycle, because there's something in between, again, that we're talking about that you said is obviously legal to purchase.

Well, I can tell you they're riding him on the street. Yeah, yeah. And I saw one. It looked like he was 10 or 11. No plate. He cut me off on the road and then took up down the street. And so, I mean, and he was like 10 or 11. I couldn't believe a parent would buy that for their kid and let him drive it in the street. But he was on Gulf Boulevard even. Gulf Boulevard. No plate, no tag. And he was going way over 30, 35 miles an hour. So... Don, do you by chance know, I remember when there were a bunch of wave runner and jet ski accidents and fatalities in the county. And I believe the county, I

How about your next meeting checking with Commissioner? I think it's Commissioner Valor Commissioner Wiki's youth advisory group and letting them sit in on a conversation because they clearly. even younger than you, I'm saying everybody's young, but they're really, they're right there, right? There are sophomores, our juniors, and our seniors in high school, and maybe they can provide some perspective, a different perspective that you guys might be able to include. That's a great idea.

Yeah, I might have found somebody, too. Did the guy go to you guys for that?

So now the easy part, right? That's right. Now, it sounds to me like there's a lot of things, and you had a couple of slides about what the state needs to be looking at. Maybe they are, and some of it got vetoed. I really don't know. And then you've got... Things that we might be able to control and to me it it's that connection between the kids that are riding illegally. Because there's doesn't sound like there's any place for them to really ride legally unless they get a dirt track or some other public or private place designated for them, right? That they can't write in our trails. They can

or getting from the parents about their $1,800 purchase that they maybe thought had certain rights that they don't have. So we locally have the right to implement certain, I think sounds like we're already have things in place. What additional things can we consider?

So you're saying we can't do that first one with those bikes?

What does state law require about identification on the bike? Anything?

So the kids that, like Commissioner Peters was talking about, probably 10 or 11 years old. Totally illegal. Yeah, totally illegal to have that bike.

Right, well, we have a relationship with our partners. Right.

Yes. Well, that's not the problem. The problem is in the other purchases. What's that? Oh, okay. I thought that most of the problems were from the other ones, but go ahead, Commissioner Scott.

Well, I think, so there's problems with all of it. I mean, because some of these class three bikes will go up to 28 miles an hour. So that's a problem, too, if you've got something that's- In our trails. Right, that is behaving dangerously or recklessly. So the class three ones are a problem, but- You know, I see, and I think we've all seen, we've all had personal experience here, the proliferation of the ones beyond the class three, the Emotos. So those are becoming, I think, the bigger problem, but the class three still presents a problem. I mean, if the maximum speed limit is 20 miles an ho

Commissioner, that's a good point. We can start sending a message that we're talking about mostly the class three, as you said, but that this is something that we're continuing to look at and that goes beyond the e-bikes. We're starting to look at them as the attorney said, we're starting to look at them as road vehicles,

The e-motives in the electric personal assistive mobility devices is where the bigger problems are coming from. Because like I said, once you get above 20 miles an hour, the problem grows exponentially.

Yeah. But the ones that you were talking about, they're not class three. They're beyond class three. They're beyond class three, right. Yeah.

And they're the ones I was just looking at on Amazon.

And they're not really legal anywhere. I mean, legal to be driven without a license on the streets. So where can you drive them legally? Nowhere. If you don't have a license, if you're not 16 or 15 or. And if you don't have a license plate on it.

Right. So if we focus on there's four things that we're allowed to do. Right. So jet skis by state law, you can't ride those unless you're 14. State law, have to be 14. Thanks for sending that, Don. So I think you could do a speed limit. Even though there isn't a speedometer, it's hard to do it. If they do what St. Petersburg's classification is, I think you can do that. We definitely can restrict where they can go, right? But we don't have that many, I mean, like Fort DeSoto, are we having a lot of problems with e-bikes in Fort DeSoto? Because on the beaches, we don't have a lot of beaches. S

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think this is a, I'm not saying simple. This is an area that we can focus on. But again, I think really the kids being able to ride to school, I don't think that's something that we're overly concerned with. And yet they're using the sidewalks and that's not legal. I mean, so are we promoting illegal activity, letting them... I mean, do the parents know that they can get them a bicycle and go on the sidewalk to school, but you can't use an e-bike or the one you bought on Amazon that can go 50 miles an hour, even though they're only going 15, to school. That's not legal ei

Go ahead, Commissioner. Back in May, I think it was, I sent out to everybody an ordinance that, I think it was Palm, Yeah, the Palm Coast had created. I'll resend that to everybody. And it's not only it's I think it's they've got some really good things in there. I don't necessarily think it's it's totally perfect, but I think it's got really good things to frame around. Right. That we can probably have a further discussion about.

I think that's a good idea. OK. Also, great idea. Thank you, Brian. All right. So I guess we'll leave item two. So we'll go from buildings to e-bikes to now we're gonna talk about budgets. Do we wanna take a 10 minute break and continue or just keep going? Keep going, all right.

But Barry, just for clarification, the budget that you presented to us still needs $10 million more for a full global rollback. That's correct. Okay. Just want to make sure I'm clear on that.

Commissioner? Plus additional money to save Wheaton Island.

Yeah, I mean, I'm probably really not in favor of increasing these fees. I don't think I mean, if it's like an eight hour visit at the park, I mean, that's like a 300. and 50 plus percent increase in parking for an eight hour visit um and the low income increase is 49 i mean it's you know i mean i think we can you know maybe dial it back a little bit um but as the current recommended rate increases i i wouldn't be in you're talking about on all of the discounted passes or you talk about that top line which yeah i mean like per an hour if someone's there for you know uh know eight hours you kno

So, I mean, you could do hourly, and this is what we do at Clearwater Beach and stuff like that. They do hourly or you have a choice for the day. So it's $30 for the day or so much an hour, like $3.50 an hour or $35. I think they're at $35 or $40 for the day now. And I'm not saying I want to be the same as Clearwater Beach, but I think you're right, eight hours. $3.50 is about $30 a day. So it kind of comes out to the same thing. But if you give them an option where if you stay all day, it's cheaper, right? So if it's $20 for the day, it could be $3.50 an hour or $20 for the day. Then the annu

And Paul, as you answered the question, do we have a breakout like where we're getting our revenues from? Like, is it mostly the the top line or are people mostly in the annual passes? How does that kind of break out?

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, so there are a number of families that go out and visit the park because it's a form of entertainment where they can take, you know, their kids, they could spend the day, they can have a little picnic, not just for holidays, but you know, in general, it's, um, a form of, um, recreation for people who may not be able to afford some of the other more luxurious, uh, types of entertainment like a Disney or Busch Gardens or whatever. So I am very apprehensive about increasing the rate to an hourly rate. I do recognize and thank you all for pointing out that we haven't rais

Okay. Those are, those are just, you know, again, I think we do a wonderful job at our parks. I'm really appreciative of the work that you do as well as our Rangers and whatnot that are out there. And, um, some of the classes teachers take their scholars out there, you know, for learning opportunities, um, So I really like what we're doing. But, um, again, that's, this is just one of those things where our residents for a little bit of money can go out and enjoy the day with their family and have a really good time. And so to make it now be a potential for them not to be able to go cause they

So, okay. Commissioner, thank you, Mr. Chairman. One of the benefits of almost dying last year is I don't have to go to the beach this year. But when I had to go to the beach, we went to Sand Key, which is the best value in town because you could park for $6 a day. And it's literally the same sand as down the street where it's like $30 or $40 to park there. And then Clearwater gives you a ticket if you're five minutes late, which I have gotten before. And I would be in favor of like even $15 a day or $20 a day, because we're still cheaper than Clearwater. And I think one thing that we could do

So on the rate issues, and again, you can't probably break out tourism versus resident income, but is there a way to structure these passes so that if you're a resident, they're a little bit cheaper to get than, I don't know, tourists that come here a lot, is there a way to give our residents a little bit of a break? Again, you go to the CVB stuff, you know, It's all about our visitors paying for a lot of the things that we're enjoying here locally.

Okay, so my last question then on rates is, I'm a resident, I'm sitting here going, an annual pass makes the most sense. Can I pay it incrementally? Or now you're talking, well, no, that's too complicated. Now it becomes a six-month pass. There's somebody... let's see the senior pass, $55, it goes to 70. They can look at $15 a quarter easily. Is there a way to, no, you can't commit to it. And I think what you're doing is you're probably hurting the other, the passes.

Yep. That was my question too. Yeah. Yeah. Commissioner flowers.

So that daily vehicle parking from $6 to $12 is, for the day for your boat ramp. So if we could do that for the boat ramp that we could not do the three 50 an hour for the car.

Yeah. And if we're trying to drive the annual passes, maybe we don't look as big of an increase at the annual passes as we do the daily. If you really try to drive them there, go from 110 to 125 or something.

Yeah, Commissioner Blackwell. I've received some emails when this was first mentioned, some concern about boat ramps not being fully repaired.

So boat ramp access for the county, and I don't mean just us, but have others experienced the same issues? Are we having a massive problem with access to the waters? Because it's not just ours, but others as well?

Oh, Clearwater Beach. Okay. And how's the purchase for Tarpon Springs looking? You know, the extra land up there for a new boat ramp.

Again, I think the concept behind this was that cities all over the county have opportunities for people. And we have none or had none. And this was a way to help our... 501c3s or government groups, special districts or whatever, to ask for the funding. What we didn't control maybe was how often they can ask for it. Now they can ask for it every year. In the early goings, it seemed like the FICSA groups were the only ones, the four groups up there were the only ones taking advantage of it, and we built up a pretty good reserve over, because, and then others started to understand the possibilit

of an MSU district to have the options but maybe once every three years and not every year or not even every other year and maybe I still like the I have to the 220,000 I don't think we have a lot of reserves now do we now we spent those down with the lighting district

Maybe we drop it to somewhere in between the two, 175.

How are the improvements with the group that currently has the responsibility of doing it? I know there were several issues that were there.

Because obviously the need for that Service in our county is without question important, critically important. 100%.

Well, push the hospitals. I mean, we seem to work with the hospitals pretty well. Correct.

hey barry those seven that 727 that you're talking about does that reduce the fee that gets charged to everybody to pay for the g general services you know how we get to get an add-on number for each department to cover the indirect cost plan yeah yeah through the indirect cost plan so yeah it'll impact that so it'll reduce that it will it's two years in the rear um on your indirect cost plan so it'll it'll impact in a couple of years okay

And that was- Is that general fund? That was before the, without the pay increase, right?

So you have the 3% reduction, 3% pay, so it's kind of the same costs.

16 over 16 million, so it's a net of a 12 million reduction. Is that what we're saying? Yeah, Commissioner in the wiki you had a question.

Thank you chair and appreciate the stress test. I think it's important, but is that. on what we're actually spending or just the budgeted amounts?

Right, yeah, because I'd like to see a 3% reduction scenario on what we're actually spending.

As a conversation piece going forward, we do have a sense, I think we've talked about this before, but just of what those... If we didn't do the campus, what the ongoing costs would be for... the existing facilities that we have because that's that's the number you almost have to compare to your your bond payment because it's it's really in the short term we're not going to have a high maintenance cost on on on those facilities so we're going to so you're going you're going to have a savings for you know the ongoing maintenance but the real issue if you recall back and this has been several ye

I think that's always good to refresh because in this time of what we're going through, I mean, I think it's important.

That's all incrementally important to understand for our residents.

Go ahead. Barry, I was looking for the total dollar number on the building in the future for the campus bond payment that we're paying in advance. What's that going to be?

Well, I mean, how much are we putting aside on this budget for the future bond payments?

In this budget, we're putting that aside? Can we cut that by $500,000 and save Wheaton Island?

Well, that was quick. I didn't have the total numbers, so I couldn't figure out where.

I'd like to just get that done. Commissioner Flowers.

Thank you. The only thing, again, I don't disagree with you, but we're still trying to negotiate with the state that didn't even know that they were doing this about the proper responsibility. They could fund us the money to operate those two parks. I just want to make sure that... That's fine with me. They keep talking about having the healthiest of budgets up in Tallahassee. They need to take responsibility for what they own. We can manage it. We can operate it. We can do all that stuff. I just want to make sure we get all of that considered. But I don't disagree with your concept.

The Wheaton Island proposal was very sudden and caught a lot of people by surprise. And I... We haven't even figured out when we're going to sell the properties here, so I don't see that way. We couldn't at least have that as an option for our next workshop to see what that, make sure we can get it done. Okay.

Go ahead, Commissioner Flowers. I'm sorry. No, I'm just going to get in the middle of you two. I'm not going to do that. Go ahead. Finish up.

No, I did have my pay up. So I was saying, Commissioner Sher, I certainly agree. I shared with Barry when he brought up the subject, my two selections was either from the general fund for the nine months until we had an opportunity to go into the next legislative session, which is in January, and for us to make the request to the state legislature as a part of our priority list, asking that they fund us Commissioner Eggers, that they fund us in order to operate, and they make that a part of their ongoing budget, not just a one-time occurrence. So I agree with you. It would be better to take it

So yeah, I'm just going to reiterate. I think we do it for one year. It gives us time to talk to the legislature. And then it's up for discussion again next year, depending on how Amendment 3 goes. And regardless, however, Amendment 3 goes, if it passes, then we know what we have to deal with. If it doesn't pass, something else is coming. So I think it's a serious conversation that we have to have with our delegation about what the state owns and what the state's willing to fund. So I agreed to fund this for a year. and then have the conversation with the legislature and see if they would. Bec

Commissioner Scott. Oh, are you finished? Commissioner Scott.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So I had asked Chris as well if he could put together a list of discretionary programs that we fund over and above what our requirements are. Um, so I'm hoping that we'll, we'll get that here. They're not too, not too distant future. It is because I think there's a lot of things out there. We found that we don't probably don't even realize that we're funding and are we getting return on investment in those things? And one thing I found while just looking through the budget is we're funding, um, for the public defender, seven hundred seventy six thousand this is the cou

Yeah, I just think the more information we have, are we getting good? return on investment for those dollars. Those are the decisions we have to make.

Well, I understand anywhere where attorneys are involved, and I mean this, no, I'm saying it in a positive way here, that whether it's the public defender's office or our own office, they're grossly underpaid compared to what the private sector. So, again, it's good to understand what you're talking about, but But what's the alternative?

No, I understand. This is just an example. I just wanted to... It's definitely not going for attorney pay. I can promise you that. I just wanted to know... What's it being used for? Is it a good use of taxpayer dollars? And that's it. And I just think those are questions we should be asking.

And when I use the word grossly, I didn't mean that badly. I just meant it's a significant difference between what they're getting paid and what that private sector alternative is. And it's hard to keep people. And her office tends to be, by definition, it's almost a revolving door. So anyway, well, I look forward to that list. Thank you, Commissioner Scott, for asking for that.

Okay, it's now 12 o'clock. Is there food coming for lunch or not? We do. Okay. So we can set that up whenever you want. Yeah, I think we go ahead and take a half hour break now and come get some food.

I know, I know. But we've got to get some food in, people. So let's take a half-hour break. We'll come back, work for half an hour, and then we'll do our other thing.

I know, just so we have, it becomes like a moving target, but let's say before the discussions that we just had a minute ago, I just want to make sure we're clear that what the estimated value increases are from the property appraiser's office. So what we have to do on our end But to effectuate a no growth government versus the one you're proposing, I just want to make sure I'm clear on what you're proposing and what that really looks like for, you know, in terms of the reality of it, but also what we as commissioners can tell our constituents.

So the sheriff's original request was $23 million higher. He lowered it by $7 million. So now it's about $15 million higher. That's correct.

a a everything out of a very small percentage of the overall general fund barry how the fiscal year 26 um positions on that page 12 that you have um what what kind of what's the that look like i see from 20 to 27 there's only a hundred and Looks like 120 people that were added of which mostly in the constitutional office, probably mostly in the sheriff's office. Is that fair to say?

So from last year, this current budget that we're in versus next year, are we seeing increases in people or is it mostly just in?

And of the people, the frontline officers versus administration at the sheriff's office, do you have a sense of the numbers? I have no idea. Okay, all right. So we don't know if it's 50-50 or 75 on the streets, we just don't have any concept. We don't, okay. I mean, because they're both two different issues, right? I mean, you know. Yeah, so just trying to get it over. Anyway.

Yeah, commissioner. Thank you chair. I guess going back to the line graph, you know, obviously I wasn't here in 2019. What and I don't have the context. I mean, so like reserves were at a hundred million. Now, they're approaching 200 million. you know i think you know that's like a big job and you know if they're separated out obviously the general fund departments in the reserves because it would be higher uh... united you took the sheriff i'd i think he has reserves in his budget i don't know he doesn't know what i was looking for uh... but if we added reserves in ours it would be up there s

at a certain point as we draw down the so so Barry he could we could get a detail of that makeup of the of the reserves because I think we also had and I didn't support it but we did have a change in policy also from 15 level to 20.8 I think on reserves and I'm I'm assuming that's a reflected in that in that 16

Yeah, because if you're saying the reserves are relevant.

I'm talking about the regular reserve, not the stuff that he just talked about. There was a reserve policy change that went to 20.8.

Yes, but if you're saying that the reserves, are those capital improvement reserves in that blue line or no? That's just dedicated reserves. Right, so if you're saying it's relative to the budget of the county admin departments, which is the overall departments, so the entire general fund. Correct.

That's right. Okay. I know. It becomes a little confusing to know which question to ask. Right.

Yeah, because I was saying if it's relatively to the admin departments, well, that's flat, but yet the reserves.

The extra money we set aside for the purchase of the land is not in those blue numbers.

That was a pretty big hit. And yet we had plenty of reserves. I think I still argue on the 20.8%, but that's a policy decision.

It doesn't affect our budget this year because what are we at now?

yeah so you're not going to find it there but yeah because i'd like to i mean keep our reserves flat for 27 because we're adding almost 5 million into reserves i mean and that's half of what we need for a full rollback Right, I mean, we're adding 4.9.

And I think that's another piece that we don't have any clue right now. We don't know what the total cost of the campus is going to be.

chair just to piggyback on commissioner wiki i i agree with him that it's too much to be putting aside and i don't see why we can't use 500 000 for whedon island and and and pull hold a little back on that reserve uh to give us a little millage rate reduction at least start picking away at that millage rate because right now we're not talking about any millage rate reduction i'd like to start talking about millage rate reduction so i see that as a a place where we can make some effort

I mean, those are, as they say, low-hanging fruit that we can... Well, that's fine.

I'll take that for now until we find some better-hanging fruit.

I don't know where we're going to find the money, the additional money, unless we talk to the sheriff. I have some recommendations. To me, that's where the money is. It's either in those reserves or the sheriff's budget. Set aside, right? I mean, that's... Where else do you have it?

value adjustment board there's a few hundred thousand there that they've increased in legal fees um which there was really no justification for i mean i got a whole list if you'd like i mean well we can start okay well we're also waiting on chris is going to give us a list of programs that we're funding that we can pick on next time as well right so

Well, I'm really interested in seeing this list of... programs that we're funding. There's a lot of things that we're funding that would not affect our level of employment and things like that. How much money are we spending supporting chamber of commerce's around the county? We spend about $300,000 a year supporting the Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council. Do we really need to be doing that? There's a lot of those. programs that we're supporting that I'm not sure we need to.

I don't know when that list is coming out. That's not general fund based, but it's still something we can talk about. The Chamber of Commerce's are coming from our TDC. Economic Development. We can still talk about it. It's just not from the general fund as we're discussing today.

The regional planning council is coming from the general fund. The EDC funds some chambers, which is from the general fund. That's what I thought. The EDC, economic development.

Hold on, hold on. We're talking about Chamber of Commerce funding. Where does it come from, general fund or TDC? That's pretty straightforward. It's both.

Yeah, okay. I thought that's what we were contributing to the chambers, the visitor centers. We do for that.

simply going to say for those who have ideas or suggestions about where you think we would be able to pull some revenue from that you share that with the other commissioners as well as with staff and then maybe allow staff to come back when we're having the additional discussion to say if you do this this is how it would look and that way we could have I think a more robust informed conversation versus we could do this, this, this, this, and this. And then I have not had a chance or others to look at, okay, so what does this mean? So I know we've done that in the past, excuse me, where, you kn

I don't, I don't disagree commissioner. I do think there's some value in, in sharing some ideas here from different people that, you know, just, There was a thought the other day, and I think it was Commissioner Nowicki, but as soon as I say that, I may be wrong, that talked about the next budget being a dress rehearsal for our voters on the referendum in November. Now, of course, we're only one of 67 counties, and if we prove it right to our counties and we vote not to do it so that we can control the pace at which we roll out those additional tax reductions instead of the way they're proposi

Mr. Chair, if you don't mind, I agree. I wasn't saying to stop the conversation here. I was just saying, I think I know for me, I don't mind communicating, but sometimes when I also have it, you know, in my hand where I can look at it and kind of massage it a little bit better. So I wasn't saying to discontinue, you know, that the conversation here wasn't a good lively one. That's number one. Number two, there are a couple of other counties and I'm happy to email it to you guys that have gone through the exercise that are creating a budget with Amendment 3 and a budget without Amendment 3, eve

They're doing that even though it won't affect next year. Yes.

Yeah, so I'll share that with you as well because those individuals are reporting it back to FAC so that we could try to compile the data when we're sending out our spreadsheet of the 67 counties. You know, this is what others are doing and this is how it looks. So I'm happy to share that with you guys as well. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Including the sheriff. Did I read it correctly? You can't do it without it. Barry, is there anything in that constitutional thing, or is this more going to be driven by the House and the Senate next year about changing the way that whole...

And that's just one fund that needs some work. And that's just one fund. And that needs work to balance it by itself, right? Because we're not balanced in that fund. No, I'm talking about in that fund itself.

I've got about a minute and a half, so we're going to go ahead and break from this meeting. I'm going to turn it over to our county attorney.

The board will enter a closed session to discuss settlement negotiations and strategy related to litigation expenditures. The persons attending the closed client attorney client session will be myself, Chair Dave Eggers, Vice Chair Chris Latvala, Commissioners Renee Flowers, who will not be in attendance at the meeting, correct? Yeah, she just had to leave. Commissioner Brian Scott, Commissioner Vince Nowicki, Commissioner Kathleen Peters, and Commissioner Chris Shearer. County Attorney Jewel White. Chief Assistant County Attorney Don Kroll, Managing Assistant County Attorney Kristi Donovan-Pe

Motion by Commissioner Peters, second by Commissioner Scott. And do we need, we'll just do a roll, no, we'll just do a voice vote. All in favor say aye. Any opposed? Motion carries unanimously.

We are officially adjourned on that meeting, but we are reestablishing our current meeting. We're back to talk additional budget. I think where we left off pretty much is that there's a seems to be an interest on getting additional information from you guys before our next budget workshop.

Compromise maybe between what you proposed and what we've been doing somewhere in between. That's what I'm suspecting, but maybe that's my own preference.

And that includes the proposed increases for the annual passes and that kind of thing.

Yes, Chair, I want to remind you that we also talked about, we were going to look at programs.

And specifically for me, I want to know about this Tampa Bay planning council because we spend a lot on that and I just don't see a big fruit.

Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've got a meeting tomorrow with Sarah Mallow to discuss that line item, $760,000. So once I get a better understanding of that, I'll share that with everybody. And just share one way, right? Yeah, I will. One way for sure. And just thinking out loud on something here, probably not something that would affect the fiscal year 27 budget. And I don't know if this is a good idea or not a good idea. I'm just throwing this out for discussion purposes. Have we ever looked at just contracting out the jail of what that would cost or potentially save? Um, no, um, we, we ha

It wasn't, I don't know how long ago, but Pasco County did that.

They brought it into the, that's correct. Okay. Are there examples of that?

It just seems to me like it might be worth having a discussion at some point, particularly if Amendment 3 passes. Well, I was going to say probably. We're going to have to get creative on a lot of different things, whether it passes or doesn't pass. So I just think it might be worthwhile to have a discussion.

So the other impact is the legislature passed a law that said if a homeless person sleeps in a business's doorway, that business can sue the local government. So if you get rid of a safe harbor and those people are sleeping in a business, now we've just set our set up for her to be liable for a lawsuit because a homeless person fell asleep in a doorway.

So it may be worth talking to the sheriff about a study on transport and just other things where there could be efficiencies. Maybe have someone come in and do an analysis and look for efficiencies. I know he doesn't like to spend money that way, but I don't think he does. I shouldn't speak for him, I apologize. It could be that there's things we haven't thought of or he hasn't thought of that there could be efficiencies, whether it's transport, whether it's, you know, I don't really know. That is not my expertise, so I just don't know. But there could be a way that he could do some kind of an

Just one other thing. Barry, I was trading emails back and forth with Blaine before he got his surgery about the use of drop employees. I'm just confused on drop employees. If you have a full-time person at their They retire, but they choose to be in the drop program. Does that save us money every year? It's exactly the same cost.

Anything else? All right. When's the next budget workshop? September 3rd.

Can I throw something out there before we go on to agenda review? Go right ahead. So, you know, we talk about affordability and... You know, I publicly stated I think a lot of the affordability problems is because corporations have bought up our housing inventory. So I learned of a new business model, and I don't know if you've heard about this, but now instead of buying up inventory of housing, The new business model is you buy up leases in apartments and condos that are for rent, and then you Airbnb those apartments and those condos. So therefore, the business is not buying the inventory, th

Okay, anything else before we jump into agenda?

So the first question, why is it the boat races for Clearwater taken out of this one? You have one on the regular agenda for the boat races, which is typically an elite funding. And so why isn't it in this one? Just out of curiosity.

Chair? Yeah. Thank you, Chair. Barry, on 18, the ARPA funds, it said it was like a pre-approved list of things. Correct. I didn't see that list, that it was things that were pre-approved. Correct.

Anything else? Well, thank you all. That's a bit of a long day, but appreciate your all being here, and we are adjourned.