Public - workshop

Awesome. Welcome to, I guess this would be considered a workshop? Correct. About housing and all the things. And it was a great idea that Robbie had the last, was it?

And you said let's have these conversations in person because they're very personal and important, and we deserve that you all do it here in person. So I appreciate everyone coming and showing up on kind of a drizzly day to discuss all these things. We're going to open up. City Manager Hayes is going to give us a background of where we're at, and then Commissioner Lucas is going to also welcome you as well.

Thank you. Good afternoon. Welcome. Mayor, fellow commissioners, city staff, community partners, and residents, thank you for being here today as we discuss the future of one of the city's most important investments, our children. Today's conversation is about a building, it's about a place, it's about a program, but it's really about the children. I want to revisit the need that caused the police department in 1993 to say we need a program like ASAP. So the question I think we need to answer today is has that need been met? Is the reasons that we started the program, are they still valid? And

Thank you. Are there others who are presenting, speaking?

So we're just going to write into discussion. Okay.

If the commission, well, they might want to, they might want to discuss what we had to say. So I thought we'd open that up to, I want to start by just saying that, um, no one up here is anti kids or anti helping. And I've personally been a donor of gift cards and I've been to all the funky food vests as well. And, um, I'm very supportive of the program, and I was even today speaking with juvenile delinquent center children there. And so I'm not anti-kids. No one up here is. No one comes up here in this scene, I believe, with a heart of hate and hardened. You come up here, you actually become s

Oh, I've never suggested that another nonprofit take over.

I would like to speak to something I've heard the mayor say today and often about helping the helpers. As an executive director of a nonprofit, yes, we help people, but we don't stay in business because of the charity. The nonprofit is a business. And so in the role of community service, the municipality city, Panama City, is not a helper providing charity to individuals in need. We've got a broader responsibility. You've heard it said in various ways today. But this isn't about charity. This is about meeting a need. And I think Scott, you said it very well in the pockets of poverty. No, we ca

brandy can you walk us through just setting setting the sort of story of the past five years of costs and the funding mechanisms where the money comes from just to bring everyone into the story of the past few years and i would add to what mr clements said there's been three incidents in covent as well we've mentioned that yeah covet was a big thing as well

Well, I went through the allocations as well, just total cost to the best of your ability and access, just the whole thing.

Brandy, does that include facilities costs?

So that's the total building power. Yes. All of those things.

So we have a partner who covers those costs.

A couple of things that we have to dive in and look at intrinsically exactly ASAP, but then we also have to back out and look at the totality of housing and services. While there is some coverage from ASAP, there's also still shortfalls inside of housing, and so we can't cover everything inside of that too.

I'm sorry. What shortfalls are in housing?

We don't have all salaries inside of housing.

One salary because the department director, which makes sense to me that it would not be there because the director works for the city of Panama, which is where we've shifted.

We shifted and we started sharing staffing with ASAP. So some of our ASAP personnel serve in housing as well as ASAP.

So what I'm saying, like for us to look at financial, the reality is ACAP is a great program. Everyone has worked incredibly hard to get us to where we are today. Some of the concerns as we've moved on are more important. If you add another facility, you've got more costs. If you're already operating at a shortfall and it's a number of children, you add more children, you end up with a greater shortfall. So it's a perpetuating problem. And every nonprofit gets to this point in time in its history. And. It gets to its point and you have to make a decision on how you structurally operate to be a

And I can appreciate the thoughts, and I can also agree with you that this is an opportunity time. I disagree on what the three years could do or what even another year could do if we work earnestly together, because what you've just described really just sets up the same scenario to happen under somebody else's watch in a few years. By that, what I mean is... You take the million and the building created and you give it to another nonprofit. They too face the same challenges that we are here.

Well, I don't have a nonprofit in mind, so maybe that's why I have a different perspective.

No, I'd say that right now this board is tied to that board, and your board can move faster if you're not worried about the mayor, the future mayors meddling in what you guys are doing. And they can be less reactionary and plan more. When I met with them, I said, hey, we have NSP houses, neighborhood stabilization. Maybe you come up with a way to create a foundation and take some houses and you use that as a funding mechanism long term. Maybe we hold on to the ASAP building by MLK and lease it to you for 100 years for a dollar. I'm up for any idea. What we want to avoid, what Josh is pointing

But what you're describing is just one possible scenario.

And to have conversations with people who actually can measure those goals.

And what I would say to that point is what are those structural changes?

I mean, well, $200,000. I think to Kelly's point, what, what they asked for today is are we willing to commit to a new facility and to being the person that's going to maintain that facility? So my next question is, Well, that sounds like just another liability. It's going to make the problem worse unless we have a sustainable model of creating afterschool care in our communities that does involve private donors that involves a lot of other avenues, I'm sure. But until there's a plan, I don't understand how, how it's, it's seen as, well, let's just keep going and eventually we'll get to a plan

But, Commissioner, if we do not stop to give direction to make a plan, then no, it doesn't happen. This body can direct collaborative planning to get to the point that you're talking about.

Give it time to restore those grants. I would ask, why couldn't the organization go after their own grants? Imagine if you controlled your own destiny as a board and you were able to go after your own grants and be able to shape the organization the way you see fit, not the way this board sees fit. They were doing that, and he was stealing it. That's why the city is doing it now. Complexity hides fraud. I think everyone here is wonderful, but this is a very confusing funding organization because it's all HUD and CBGB money.

And it has. I'm saying that we continue down this path. We're going to run out of money. It's not for me, in my opinion, to go into this organization and tell them how to run your organization and say, Terry, this is how you should spend your money. This is for you guys to figure out. This is your organization that you should be spearheading. You should be crafting. You should be going after grants, not local government. We can't even run a marina. And we're supposed to run after-school programs? I mean, we can't.

But I think your argument would have water if we had not done it successfully prior to, for decades prior to.

I don't know what the financials were for the last 30 years. If I had to guess, there was probably a gap all the way through the process. And it just became exacerbated because we went through a hurricane, and we became tight on finances, and we didn't have the same flexibility that we had 10 years ago because we don't. And so I don't know we're talking about that. Maybe it was sustainable 10 years ago. I don't know whether it was, no one's given me a 30 year look back on, on those things. I do know at one point in time, the, the, the police department was the one that was operating it with so

can can run and they've got plenty of run they have the same runway what we just described it's the there's the same runway with a private organization as there is with a public organization it's the birthing process and gentlemen i think the way to get there isn't by having individual conversations but by pulling together experts as as we know the people in the field and say let's have a plan And let's move forward with that. And I don't think that the way we've gone about it to get us to this point is the way to accomplish that.

So when I have my first meetings with Terry and Sheila, I never hid behind any of my words. I said this in the very beginning. I think they should be their own nonprofit, that they control their own destiny. And we help them stand up. When I met with everyone there, this is the first time we get to talk about all this stuff together. And I said the same thing. I said a failure to me is this program does stand itself up and then doesn't sustain. I want to see a sustainable program. But is it on me and this board for us to go figure out how you create your own funding mechanism? We have houses.

But Mayor, it's not an either or because they've come to help us. That was the initial impetus for building the building. Yeah. And so they're here to help kids, not us. Well, the ASAP program is housed in the city. So in that regard.

And we do need their help. And I think we need their help now more than ever because I do not believe we have known for four years that we were in an unsustainable track. And every year we propose a budget that is just drawing down on funding that's sitting into an account.

Sure. There are other areas in the city that have done the same thing. And so now we're at a point of saying, look, do we want to continue to draw down these funds, or do we want to entrust them to a group that is absolutely passionate and cares, and we know beyond a shadow of a doubt they're going to do what's best for these kids in every single instant? Or do we want to trust it into government system to somehow possibly get through the pragmatics of grant writing and make sure we get through each and every budget process and the elected leaders may change and maybe they have different prior

And I thank you for bringing that up because what we've overlooked here is a responsibility that government has to fill a gap where the private market does not correct on its own. And that's what we're talking about here. In neighborhoods where private child care and enrichment programs can be afforded by the people who live there, That model leaves lower income neighborhoods with fewer services, fewer facilities, fewer opportunities. And so that's where we, the city, can act where the market fails. And that's what's been happening with ASAP over this time. Do we look at what's current today a

and then people turn that so so i would like to draw attention to in no way in any of the comments that i've made have i ever suggested cutting for funding to asap yeah i think what we have is it's maybe a disconnect with how it's being funded and how it's been funded There is a CBDG allocation that could continue with any nonprofit that's doing it. It's not something that we have to say. So 100% of the city funds that are allocated today could go with anybody. So it's not an aspect of trying to cut funding. It's a recognition that it's not covering its expense and all it's doing is drawing do

And adding on that, I think it's easy to get in this job being successful at business and say, I can figure this out for you guys. And I'll tell you exactly how to do it. No, no, I'm saying I can't do that for you, and I don't trust that I can do that better than you can.

No, it's not. And I'll give you some very practical pieces of the picture. When we started this conversation, we also didn't know that there was fraud going on in the organization. There were some things like that that we were unaware of when we started that. That did uncover some other things. It's like, hey, we need to tighten up operations. We need to tighten up some things to make sure. that we do things well non-profit and city government work together doesn't always operate very cleanly the other thing is we implemented a step program that also increased the cost on salaries increased th

No, I see it with how the original intent was. And that was to try to get this, this building across the finish line. That was, that was the goal because not their money. yeah it was meant to partner in with them okay that that is that is what the intent was is saying hey let's move forward with this facility that helps with operational costs let's help with those things that at least was the intent now what it's turned into is like hey let's try to sustain the program for multiple years um as it operates um with with a loss

I know Scott's got to leave. I just want to ask you a question because I've heard it restated here on the dais differently than I heard it from you. The three-year stabilization program, were you proposing that we do nothing and just keep operating the way we've been operating?

I think it's just a philosophical belief we all have of is government the most efficient creative organization or is sort of people holding their own destiny is really what it boils down to. And I think, you know, I think honestly it's a disservice to the money you've raised for us to take over a facility where they're going, the paint's faded and the carpet's replaced and we're going, budgetary issues. And we're creating, you should be in control of the building that you funded to take care of it, to ensure it's beautiful in 20 and 30 years. and i think you know when we when we talked you sai

I would caution the organization. I think what we're seeing across not just locally, state, federally, you name it, that there is a continuing push to streamline and shrink what is serviced through government. now that doesn't mean that we have to step out and we don't support i don't want anybody to interpret that as a lack of support but it is a a particular potential of a different focus and maybe there's a different way of of handling it and so um I think when it does come down to it, I do think it does come down philosophical. I think what Alan said is correct. Is government going to be t

So what I hear is the solution coming from the two of you. Did you even ask them if that's what they wanted to do as an organization? It's my understanding that the organization was created with a specific mission and purpose. So if you would, tell us and address that.

Yeah, I think that's probably the direction I'd like to see. Because if we want to keep this, absorb it, and keep this nonprofit, what other nonprofits should we absorb? Should we start absorbing all the nonprofits? I think at what end do we stop doing it? So I would say setting up a nonprofit, having us set a board up of people who can look at budgets, ensure that we're going after grants, have a real focus on the kids is what I'm asking for, and a financial plan of how the thing's funded,

do they you know some sort of endowment would you be willing to explore with non-profit professionals the different possibilities that are out there other than what you have in your mind commissioner street i have nothing yeah i mean i was listening but again this whole job is throwing ideas yeah yeah okay so one idea is let's ask for the um community to to weigh in on this so i would say They want direction. Do we want to support building the building? I would say yes. Let's move forward and parallel these other discussions. Because I don't see that at this juncture we can say, oh, we're just

well i can't and i can't see expanding the liabilities on an already strapped organization and i think that's the that's the flip side of the facility you've got to be able to maintain the facility you've got to be able to staff the facility you've got to be able to put the effort into the facility and so that is why we're at this impasse is okay so we go and build a building and then all of a sudden what then like what problem are we solving for And I think we have to solve for both at the same time. Can the facility be built? Absolutely it can. Can it be built without a plan on how to fund i

Let's not do that. And so, but to Rob's point and thinking about different ideas, maybe we transfer the whole program over to the Panama city, a hurricane nonprofit, and maybe that's just where it sits. That's where the funding is. And when the funding runs out, hopefully there's people that are gifted. They're going to raise funding. They're going to, they're going to take the time to, to actually see it get to sustainability. That's an, that's an opportunity. We all sit on that same board. So that is the exact concept that Rob just described, is transfer the program over to the nonprofit and

Concern of mine as well. And what I would say to that, and I think to the mayor's point, is this is the type of dialogue there was. This is where I, I kind of in this conversation, because this is not just happened over one year. I mean, this has been multiple years of recognizing we are at a, we, we have an issue. We need to solve it. Sure. We could have written grants two years ago. We could have, we could have done this. We could have done those things. Grant timeout.

The city is not on a moratorium, and that's where we're applying right now from it. So it's not even the organization that's applying for the grants. It's the city. The city could have done that two years ago. And so what I'm saying is the sense of urgency in the conversation is when you make decisions early, You have the flexibility to be compassionate, to be methodical, and be meticulous in anything that comes. If you wait for three years, it limits your stuff. A PMO office was a great example for us. And what it looks like, the further you keep pushing decisions down the line, the less your

I would say to you too, Robbie, to your point, if somebody came with us with a concept idea, $500,000, we can get this program to where it needs to be to not only serve more kids, but be sustainable. I'd spend that money tomorrow.

So I think before we just say, if somebody comes to us with a plan that we craft the framework and make it available.

they know if that's what we want i i think i like robbie's concept of transferring it to the hurricane michael non-profit and then allowing the people that are passionate about it to figure to to give us recommendations that doesn't address the concern about the employee status

The nonprofits already paying for the employees anyway, right now as it stands, according to what I just heard. So it's not, it doesn't change anything for the employee.

That's a change of employment status, and it does affect the employee. Maybe. I think what I'm hearing.

Eventually, but not right now. Brandy just asked Nevin.

Sounds like a legal question. I think we take time to research all of this and not decide tonight exactly the direction we want to go and put it on a city commission agenda in the next two weeks or three weeks or a month. But there are some questions that have to be answered that we cannot answer tonight.

I would voice support for this method of action as soon as possible and that we can move forward with getting to an answer to what Kelly's asking us today and from this board is this facility, how does it move forward? I think it will move forward faster if it is not just the city focused on it. Let's get other people involved.

so i i know once you start volunteering you become on every board you're volunteering for everything it's exhausting and so one of the harder parts of these organizations is bringing new people into the fold that are excited and passionate about their topic and i totally understand that you was a capital project to raise for a facility But you might consider finding other people who are also passionate about this, bringing them into the fold and seeing what their ideas are. Because when I met with you, I said, I have no idea. These are just ideas of what we could do for any sort of conversatio

And I would not propose that we make philosophical fundamental changes to the government without taking it to community as well.

I feel like we're talking to the community right now.

I think to the mayor's concept that he floated before, I mean, it could look like there is some type of rental facility that's helping subsidize the program. mean i don't think it has to be just this one this one option but i do think we've got to get it into the hands and so and not asking kelly for you guys to go and figure out how to operate a program but i know there's people inside of your group and probably others and i know some that have reached out to me that are passionate about helping the program continue to operate beyond just building a building. Can we get there? I think we can

Right. Is that operating money? Is that some type of education program? What is that?

Which speaks to your question about how ASAP operated without going in the red prior to five years ago.

Well, what was used is they were used, city expenses were still incurring the expense, and then the receipts were submitted, then drawn down. It was a pretty creative way of stealing.

No, stealing? Actually, in the nonprofit world, many grants are cost reimbursement. You expend your funds first, and then you get reimbursed, especially federal grants.

Yeah, I think that was that my point wasn't what you were saying, Janice. My point was that was the, that was what was being utilized to siphon off stuff.

work together to craft a way to look at – because we've asked a lot of questions up here tonight. And so I don't think we're going to get there by simply looking back at this and saying, okay, let's answer these specific questions. I think the meat of what we're looking for, they can move forward to –

do think we probably need to have some some type of clarity on on philosophically whether the program should stay within the actual city budgetary process or whether it should move to a nonprofit and whatever we need to do to get that conversation back to us that would be that would be that now the city may still control that nonprofit as it seems like that's what we've discussed today but at least it creates a more positive movement forward to getting to answer the question of how do we construct a building and then program and be able to afford sustainability of it and Robbie I would challen

That'd be great. There is no driving force to a specific solution. And hopefully you guys see this. I think right now we just have so many options of opportunity. Pick the best one that ultimately serves the longest. And I don't know that just keeping it as is is what's going to serve the program long term.

Your hearts are in the right place. You're doing good work. We totally see that. I think Commissioner Granger just arrived. Did you have something to say?

Challenge in and of itself. What I will say is that what I hear from my colleagues on this dais is that all of us up here are committed to keeping ASAP running. It's just what does that look like moving forward? And so hearing that there's a certain amount of money that is available to the program that will eventually run out without it being backfilled. But I think it's also fair to note that this program in its 30-year history has only a couple of times actually drawn off of the general fund in order to stay afloat. And so keeping that in mind, this isn't necessarily something that is... a b

Let me just say thank you to One Positive Place. Thank you, Director Sheila Ware and Terry Gaynor, for the hard work that you've put into this program. And for all of you who sat quietly and listened, and I know a couple of you, it was not easy to just not talk. But thank you. Thank you for being here. And to my colleagues on the dais, I think this conversation, as many we've had, are healthy conversations. And I do want more of our community to weigh in on decisions we make which are philosophical, and let's make a pathway for that to happen as well.

Sounds good. Awesome. Thank you so much for attending. Meeting adjourned.