City Council - workshop

Once we award the contract, how long would you expect this process that you're recommending to take?

Well, and it was more broad-based. It's not just from the perspective of the developer or the architect. It looks at financial feasibility. It's one thing to have a developer put together a plan, but it may not be feasible financially.

We've already sort of seen that around that area. Yeah.

i know we have some downtown property owners here tonight as well so it's you know even early on planning stages this is important i fully agree that the real estate advisory pathway is the is the most appropriate here i think it like you said it's a multi multidisciplinary approach and um i think for the scope of what we're talking about here i think that makes absolute sense and i want to commend you and staff because this was very thorough uh all the aspects that you guys seem to have covered in the rfp um you know i can't imagine the There may be something we've left out, but I think you d

all right well if there are no other questions we'll have them thank you so i want to make a motion i'll make a motion to approve the request for proposals and authorize staff to advertise the request for proposals and initiate the consultant selection process thank you motion by jim second second by mark all in favor any opposed all right so that passes i appreciate that thank you staff for putting that together

When we pull it down, it's simple. We'll soon see about that.

I don't think this is capable of being put in a nice little box. Let's try. All right.

Kevin, this is a gotcha session. He's prepared.

Well, all right. Yes. As I understood it, the rowing club donated three acres to us. But there was a portion adjacent to the three acres that was donated called the rowing center site that they were going to keep. And so you're saying that all of it now is...

All right, because I'm confused because in terms of the lease that was provided and the operating agreement with BRC, the lease that we are being asked to approve today concerns, I believe, 0.3652 acres and the... The agreement with Belmont Rowing Club, as I understood it, the park was a little over three acres, and the warranty deed that's in the packet is, I believe, 3.0490 acres. So I'm just confused as to what property we're even talking about when it comes to the lease, which is 0.3 acres vis-a-vis the operating agreement refers to three acres.

So that area is in our property, not theirs. Not BRC's.

So they don't have a FERC permit for the property that they own.

because the lease agreement is not that's just between Duke in the city and it doesn't need to be filed but I understand the memorandum of lease would be filed with the register of deeds I would assume that that's correct so can we talk a little bit more come back to how where that would be filed

So is that just a deadline set by Duke, or does it have anything to do with the actual validity of the FERC license?

And did I say that the frequency of issuing even the FERC permits is not as great as it once was?

And the lease, I should also point out, is for nominal consideration. So it's not like our recent discussions of other leases that are... Non-nominal amounts. So we wouldn't be... It's not like we'd be obligated to pay like... $1,500 a month or anything for nominal consideration.

And if we don't, then it reverts to BRC?

So there's no lease on this property at the moment by anyone, whether us, BRC, there's nothing? Okay. And the lease seems to be for an indeterminate time. It just expires at the end of the term of the FERC license, and that seems to be, no one seems to know when that might be. Is that correct?

And that's Duke's FERC permit, or is it?

And that's the same FERC license that's referenced in the agreement with the BRC that that was going to be obtained through the city with assistance from the BRC. Is that correct? I would assume. This FERC license that we're talking about in connection with the lease that we want to execute, is that the same FERC license that in the agreement from 2017 with BRC, Section 4 says that the parties will use diligent effort to get a FERC license? That's the one. That's the same one? Yes. Okay. All right. If we could, what is the exact relationship between this lease that we're being asked to approve

What's the relation? How does, how does, what's the relationship? Because there were, there were a number, there are several agreements in the agenda pack. There's a memorandum of lease, there's the lease, and then there's the agreement with BRC from 2017. The 2017 was there just for your knowledge. Okay.

I think we were talking earlier. I might be mistaken, but I thought there were some revisions made to it in 2020.

I remember something related to this, but I don't remember what it was.

Now, they're also going to run their own operations from there.

Because they were supposed to do certain things within six months of the FERC permit issuing. Correct. Which obviously hasn't happened. But this is...

What is that deadline or clock you referenced?

Right, from the date that the FERC is issued.

Just out of curiosity, correct me if I'm wrong, I think there's a small area plan in that area, the Waterfront Village small area plan. Is this property encompassed within that small area plan?

I don't think that's the, yeah, I think we'd be able to adhere to that. I'm just, it's interesting because, you know, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, based on what was actually issued to Duke by FERC, B. R. C. Can't do what they were contemplating to do on the property when this original agreement was entered into between B. R. C. In the city. Is that correct? Okay. And so I would assume in the months to come, then we would be I'm revisiting this. I still think it was amended in 2020, but there was a meeting and a bunch of people came. It was one of the first meetings we had.

Yeah, because the neighbors across the river were all upset about noise.

Yes. But I thought as part of that that they're Their leader at the time agreed to make some changes to some of the conditions. It was one of the first meetings that was allowed live in the summer of 2020. It was in the basement at TechWorks. There was a lot going on at the time.

As far as the lease signing goes, would you have any concern with the lease being signed before this details with Duke regarding the private aspect of the development is finalized?

Would you say to combine adds up to the .365? And that's the only portion that's, yeah.

Just something to keep in mind for when that happens. I would probably when renegotiating and thinking about termination, I would make sure that there is a mutual termination clause as it's written. It's only the agreement can only be terminated at least before the park opens at the election or discretion of the BRC. As I read it there, if for some reason we wanted to extricate ourselves from it. we have no ability to do that as I read the 2017 agreement. So I probably would include a mutual termination clause.

For the immediate purposes of tonight, it makes the most sense. It's been such a long time, and you can appreciate this as an attorney yourself. A lot of times, when you think something makes sense in the moment when it's written, it's going to be an issue and interpreted by people who come along many years later who aren't going to have been privy to those original discussions. don't understand what everyone was doing and somehow have to try and piece everything together.

I think, wouldn't it just be back to Kevin's no harm, no foul? That's what I'm hoping.

I think it makes sense what we're being asked to do. There's no commitment or obligation. It's just trying to understand what we have to do going forward.

By the way, did Duke get back to you on the edits?

I don't think there was anything substantive. I mean, I had a few questions, but I don't think there's anything substantive in there that would preclude us approving it.

There's one that's just, I mean, more informational, like we should be aware that basically they can flood the property with everything they want.

I'll move to approve the lease as presented.

Lindsay, is this loose copy? Is it the same as what was in our packet?

Are they marked so we know what's new or not?

You don't have to get into the edits yet, but if you could. I see two things, the two provisions I had questions about were removed. I took them out. Yes. Okay.

So there were, I will explain. Yeah. There was a 75.03 H and a 75.05 E. And both of those provisions I went back and forth with Corky about because let's just take 75.03 H because 75.05 deals with micromobility. So let's deal with the e-bikes. If you look at the definition of e-bike in the definition section, or electronic assisted bicycle, I think is what it is, part of the definition, one of the standards says that to be an e-bike, to be an electric assisted bicycle, it has to be incapable of being driven more than 20 miles per hour. If it's capable of being driven more than 20 miles per hou

We probably should let Lindsay go through your presentation and what distinguishes these different types of e-bikes. I think that'll give some context.

Is that like... Mechanically, like that's how they're set up? Correct. Okay. Physically, it's not like we just say, we're just saying they can't. It's like they literally cannot go. That's how they're manufactured. Yes. Okay.

I just changed the word around because it was... By the way, this color-coded chart you put together, I think, summarizes... I don't know that you need to go through all this. This is really helpful. Okay.

Well, I'm just... Like, how... If... you're out patrolling how are you going to tell the difference between a micro mobility like for example the pink scooter is a micro mobility device the black one is a motorized scooter but they both to me look functionally the same skateboards too all right the electric skateboards now no chance you can tell the difference between a regular one version has pedals right correct so i'll go straight to the chart just so you guys can see it you're fine

Well, I think that's a little bit easier, though, because of the speed.

Well, and not to pile on, but like what's the, I mean, what is, why do we need to distinguish between the two? Because the speed difference is five miles an hour and it looks like Most of the regulations between like a micro mobility device and a motorized scooter are the same.

Right, but what I think Mark was saying is there's only a 5-mile-an-hour difference, and most of the regulations are the same, so why?

I was just saying. Do you want them, even if they're doing 15 miles an hour, do you want them on a standard sidewalk? Not an 8-foot multi-use, but a standard sidewalk.

Yeah, I mean, but that's my question. Does that dismount zone, does that apply to the micromobility device? Yes, it applies to everything. Like, you take that main section of sidewalk between, on the main between Myrtle McLeod and Catawba. Is that considered a multi, is that wide enough to be a multi-use or is that a standard sidewalk? I can't, it seems pretty wide. And that, you know, again, I'm just trying to think. Like, do you get the dismount? Are you even allowed to operate those? I remember seeing the dismount section in their packet.

Go ahead, Jason. And this is one of my biggest questions tonight, because we're talking about a new ordinance, and if it's passed, like you said, there's an educational process with your officers. Where's the educational process for the operators? There's no licensing required. There's no permit required. When do they get, how do they get, how do these things get conveyed to the operators or their parents?

Can we institute some sort of permitting process where they have to know what these rules are? Because I mean, you talk about yielding to pedestrians. I mean, that's pervasive through the whole ordinance. Yielding to pedestrians or other vehicles. If it's an eight-year-old on an e-bike, Are they really going to be conscious about yielding to pedestrians? I mean, where's the education for the operators? Do we have the ability to implement some sort of, you know?

Yeah, but let's be preemptive. I mean, I don't want to be coming back here with an accident.

What is the crux of the complaints that you're getting that you don't have? like that you can't respond to with what we've currently got in the ordinance?

Riddle me this. Obviously, you all didn't just come up with this out of the clear blue sky. You provided the list of other municipalities that actually have these ordinances. Presumably, someone somewhere has defined and regulated micromobility devices and motorized scooters. Is that correct?

Yep, I agree. You know, you talk about max speeds here, and talking to some of these kids that are riding these e-bikes, Thank you guys for doing the research on this and putting together this because this is, like the mayor said, I mean, there's been such a proliferation here of just all these different types of bikes and vehicles and, you know, how you come up with a body of law to regulate them is no small undertaking. So I commend you for that. But one of the things I'm hearing lately, too, one of the big trends with these e-bikes is modifying them. So they're spec'd out for 20 miles an hour, but they're putting kits on them. They're going north of 50.

Right. So how, yeah. I mean, you're going to be enforcing the law with someone on one of those modified e-bikes as if they were a moped or motorcycle.

Because the moped and the motorcycle talk about cc's. They don't talk about speed. Correct.

And if it's over 30, it's considered a motorcycle. Correct.

So you pull over one of these e-bikes and you find out it's got a kit on it. And whether you clock them or you, I don't know if you can visually, you know, tell if they're going more than 30 miles an hour, if that stands, how that holds up.

Did you clock them, or are you just visually? How does that work? Because I know you guys have specialized training when it comes to that. I don't.

So one of the big distinguishing factors between a motorcycle and the others is they have to have a license. Correct. So if you have a modified e-bike that's spec'd out for 20 or 30 miles an hour, but they're going downhill or on a flat surface and they're going north of 50, if they don't have a license, it's... Depending on where they are.

If it's modified, would it show you the modified CCs or what?

you'd have to catch him in the act yeah then you'd have to yeah that'd be the best way to do it yeah when you're doing 60 miles an hour we know it's faster rather than like focusing so much on like the structure of the vehicles would it be simpler to just say like the speed limit on a sidewalk is 10 miles an hour or something and not get into this hole like is it modified is it not modified is it micro mobility is it not because like i'm just thinking like if the Because I keep hearing us refer to kids. I'm trying to explain this to a teenager.

Well, you'd be in the downtown dismount zone, too.

If the problem is with kids, why is there an exception for under 16 on sidewalks? Shouldn't it be the opposite? Like, wouldn't an adult theoretically be a more responsible operator on a sidewalk than a child?

Where are you getting most of the calls? Is it all over?

And one of the issues I see, too, is they're typically going home or maybe they're just making their last couple laps around the neighborhood right at dusk. You can't see them. They come zipping around the corner and no lights. And I noticed that was one of the requirements. I think you're not allowed to operate them after sunset. After sunset. Right? But there was something in there about lights, was there not?

I'm not... I'm operating electric... I'm sorry, I'm not reading the latest version.

Okay. when operating electric-assisted bicycles, motor-driven bicycles, and motorized scooters after sunset, all such vehicles shall be equipped with a lamp on the front.

With responsible adults on golf carts, you know, I think most of what we're seeing, what I'm seeing driving around town is anywhere from eight to 12 year olds you know, typically on what looks to me like the motor-driven bicycle with no pedals. More like a motorcycle to me is what it looks like, but it's electric. And they're definitely going more than 20 miles an hour. They're not stopping at intersections. They're not even looking at intersections in a lot of cases. So if we have a serious accident or a fatality, then people are going to be like, well, why didn't y'all regulate this?

Do we even have the ability to customize this or is that all?

Jack, wear a helmet. Not normally. You're not going to be putting me in the clink.

Okay. Does the state allow you to implement a minimum age for any of these bikes? Like minimum age period? On city streets or sidewalks? Really? That's something else I may want to think about. Do you know, I mean, regarding the lighting, I don't, well. Yeah, I'm just asking if, you know, if you see that typically these bikes typically come standard with any lights on them? Or is that something they have to add?

There are some that are sold as commuter devices that are built with that in mind. So I've got one, and it's got a bright headlamp on the front, and it's got brake lights in the back. So you can actually be out at night, because the idea is you work until 5 or 6 o'clock and you need to scoot home.

I've just got – like on the whole sidewalk thing, I know this is kind of like – Some people have different opinions on this. But my opinion, that's the safest place to be, particularly with a lot of our streets. Because I actually, when I campaigned, I was buying the scooter. So I've actually been on probably every street on your map here. Safest for the operator or safest for pedestrians? Well, for the operator, if it... I mean, for pedestrians, if it's handled responsibly. I can tell you what I did.

I can tell you what I did as someone who's cognizant of this. When I saw a pedestrian on the sidewalk, I'd dismount and walk the bike or the scooter until I went past the pedestrian.

You're a responsible operator. Well, yeah.

I'm not saying that necessarily everyone's going to do that, but I also... It sounds like the way I'm interpreting the ordinance is any road where the speed limit is 30, was it 35 or over? Well, I just like, so if I want to take my scooter out.

Which model is yours? It does 20 miles an hour.

Okay, but that's, okay, so the streets that are over 35 are only going to be the boulevard and there's one other, because I asked the chief about this. Well, there's six in the south. 85. So every other street in town, I have to be in the road.

Even parts of it actually even have bike lanes. I actually tried. I was like, well, I'm out here. It's got a bike lane. I'll use the bike lane. It was terrifying because, like, you've got cars flying by you. If they're not flying by you, they're pulling around you into the other lane. And then you also have the issue with tree branches and stuff in the bike lane, which make it actually to the point where you have to actually stop and get off to go around the branch, which I guess is a separate issue. And then there are parts of Central, for example, that don't have bike lanes at all, so you've

I don't think you're going to go around patrolling looking for people on sidewalks. We don't have enough manpower to do that.

I've got a question on section. No, I'm chewing it over. Okay. Go ahead, Jason. Section 7508B. Anyone riding upon an electric assisted bicycle, motor-driven bicycle, motorized scooter, or micro-mobility device shall not attach the vehicle or himself or herself to any other moving vehicle upon any public highway or public street. So I notice that mopeds are not included in that section. Can mopeds pull other vehicles?

We know that happens quite frequently, especially around the downtown area. Typically around the weekend.

Speaker stacks pulling behind. I haven't seen it. Oh, you've got to get out a little more. It's a sight. But anyway, so that is illegal, though.

You had a Holly Springs on your list of towns with an ordinance, and that was one that I just happened to look at. I grew up near Holly Springs, so I was like, oh, I know what it is. I know the area. They seem to have a much simpler approach to this. They've got two classifications. An e-bike, which is 750 watts or less, based on the battery wattage, must not exceed 20 miles an hour, requires pedals. And then something called an e-moto, which is basically anything over that. And they also expressly allow... um e-bikes on basically everything greenways sidewalks multi-use paths walkways wow um

Well, that's the thing. I mean, it's safer for them, but it may not be safer for the pedestrians they're encountering.

Was that something you could address through like a, you know, you can't, you have a dismount zone, so to speak, within like, you know, I don't know, 50 feet of a pedestrian or something?

You're saying if you see someone ahead of you that you have to dismount before you get to them?

And there's no lighting requirements on the micromobilities, right?

I think as we work through this, I know this is information only tonight, right? It is, yeah.

But I mean, I'm fully in favor of formulating some sort of regulations around these bikes because I do just foresee I mean, you're already seeing it. Fortunately, it hasn't been to the level of a fatality or a serious accident yet, but just the more these things continue to proliferate and you don't have necessarily most responsible operators sometimes, not always. I mean, I think that's the purpose of what we're trying to do here. I think the biggest challenge is going to be education and such at that point. I mean, do we have the ability to require a permitting process like we do with, I kno

To me, it's going to be a huge conundrum if all of a sudden we approve this new ordinance.

Yeah, it's just like, the way I'm reading it, it seems like it's very much kind of pushing people into the street, which might, like, I think as far as, like, neighborhood streets are concerned, that's fine for the most part. Like, if you're in a you know, like a side street or something. But it's just like these other, I wouldn't want someone to read this and think that, like, for example, they have to go down Central in the road because that's what this says. And I understand that from an enforcement perspective, maybe that's not how this would actually be executed. But I'm not entirely sure

Some of the other towns I looked at did that, where they were like, you can't do more than 10 miles an hour on a sidewalk. Right, and we have that.

But the e-bikes... with the pedals and the motor-driven bicycles without the pedals, their regulations are identical. Where they can go, where they can't go, you know, whether helmets, everything is the same for those two columns.

We just say you can't. Neighborhood street. Do that? I don't know if we're allowed to say that.

If that's the issue, can we just say you can't do that?

It says yield to pedestrians when you're out.

I think we need to study this, especially when we have a full council that can see it. I think we definitely need to take some action here and give you guys the enforcement ability if and when it's warranted in your discretion. Because right now, like you said, you don't even have that ability. But I commend you guys for the work you're doing, and it's a lot to undertake, but it's something we have to do to prevent injury or fatality. Because we are hearing a lot about it in the community. So that would be my suggestion that we study this. And I'd rather take it up sooner than later. I don't w

Well, isn't that the goal is that it was presented for information tonight that it'll be presented as an actual ordinance for voting on at the August regular meeting. Is that correct?

I'm here to get y'all's opinions. One or two more questions. On the downtown dismount zone, section E, which says the city may install and maintain signs or pavement markings. Can we change that to shall? I think if we're going to have a zone like that, it makes sense for us. Where does that, what section? 7507E. I think if we're going to have a dismount zone like that, it makes sense to have it marked. I mean, I'm sure you were intending on doing that anyway, but. That would just kind of scratch that itch for me.

Yeah. And then I have a question on the, like, fines for parents. As far as the, like, do we do that with anything else? I'm just, okay. Because I had not heard of it.

No, that's fine. I just had a question when I read that about the enforceability of that. But if that's something we're already doing, that's fine. And then on the impoundment of the devices, where it talks about disposing and all of that with the equipment, given how expensive some of this stuff is... I would just want us to be cognizant of ensuring that we're not getting rid of somebody's property without getting them adequate opportunity to get it back.

OK. Yeah, I think it'd be helpful to spell that out. So if somebody's e-bike disappears and you've got it.

How would we establish ownership? Because these things don't have... A lot of them look the same as far as serial numbers and stuff go. I don't know.

Okay, okay. Yeah, I'm just thinking this from the perspective of like if you guys picked up the bike that I spent $1,000 on and I can't prove that it's mine, you know, that's causing a bit of a headache. So, okay.

perfect direction for you this evening but hopefully between now and I guess the second revision I mean for me to the extent that we can simplify it I think any move in that direction would be good the only problem with simplifying it it creates a lot of gray area which is what we're running into now with city ordinance all the old ordinances and it's I guess I'm not opposed to revisiting it, like starting small. And if it's not working, we can come back and tweak it. I don't think we necessarily need to get it right on the first try.

So as long as we're kind of hitting, you know, if we can get 70% or 80% of the way there, I'd call that a win.

Well, as you said, there's got to be two readings at two different days.

Two ordinances. So to vote on it, I think the workshop's probably the, if it fits on the agenda, I don't know.

Can we also research the ability of a permitting process to that? Yes. I mean, maybe not for the micros, but for some of the faster, more problematic types of bikes, if we could research that. Otherwise, I think the education process is going to be, yeah, you can put it on social media. Could you structure it?

You could even do, I'm just thinking out loud here, but like a voluntary registry of the devices. I don't know what that would cost to maintain, but if I buy something and want to register it with you guys, that would be one way to keep track of it. I think you make a requirement. And then, well, even with the permitting thing, like, could you structure it in such a way as, like, if you wanted to go above a certain speed on these things, you have to complete it?

We can come up with whatever we want. Yeah, I want more enforcement on me.

Before you leave, this is a similar vein. It's not on these bikes, but I am getting a lot. I imagine my colleagues are getting a lot of comments, concerns around golf carts. We're going to do this again with golf carts. I need an education on certain things pertaining to golf carts. I know that there's different types, and depending on the type kind of determines where you are and are not allowed to go, apparently, right? Can you just – is there like a short version, Prima, you can give us on – So short version of that would be – Or maybe the different types first.

So if it goes over 20 miles an hour, is it regulated just as a car would be?

I think that's what – Sorry? 35 and under? Or 35 and over? Under.

Does that apply to any type of golf cart? You can't be on any street above 35 miles per hour?

And with all of those, there is a permit required, right?

What about, is there any verbiage that speaks to restraining children or toddlers in these golf carts?

So if you have a toddler, I don't forget what the rule is now. I'm out of that phase. But as far as when child seats are required. Yeah. What's the age? Is it seven or 70 or something like that? Eight or nine or something at this point.

So if you've got a four- or five-year-old and you're holding them in your arm driving a golf cart or they're just sitting beside you.

And we have that ability? Say that again? Hopefully we have that ability to do that.

I have to ask these days. I mean, I don't know.

Will that also address, like, parking, I'm sure? Correct. Lighting?

Well, your responsibility continues to increase. You're doing an awesome job. Thank you.