Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good morning, everyone. It's June 25th, and we're starting our planning board meeting. I'm delighted to see so many people here today. Our first item this morning is 1A, adoption of resolutions. We have four. Mr. Bartley, you can't vote on either of these. And Mr. Hedrick, you can't vote on the last one. The first one is the Downtown Silver Spring Overlay Zone Civic Approvement Fund Rate Adjustment. The second is the 4702 Chevy Chase Drive Preliminary Plan Amendment. The third is 801 Raider Road. So we'll do these three, but Commissioner Bartley, you can't vote. So do I have a motion to approv

All in favor? Aye. Aye. The 401. And the last one is the Persimmon Tree Lot 35 Block A Forest Conservation Plan Amendment, where staff is recommending approval. Do I have a motion for approval of Persimmon Tree Lot subdivision?

All in favor? Aye. Aye. So it's 3-0-2. Thank you. So the next is we have two subdivisions this morning. The first is subdivision plat number 220-260-240, Treville. And the second is subdivision plat 220-260-500 and 220-260-510, Willow Glen. Do I have a motion to approve these two record plats? I'll move to approve the record, please.

All in favor? Aye. Aye. The ayes have it 5-0. And next we go to extensions. We have six extensions this morning. The first is the Popular Grove Sketch Plan Amendment, Preliminary Plan Amendment, Site Plan Extension Request Number 3. The second is River Road Estates Preliminary Plan This must be the first extension request on that one. And the third is only FSU site plan regulatory extension request number two. The fourth is Bennett Road properties extension request number five. The fifth is Sunina Properties Apartments extension request number three. And the sixth is Friendship Commons extensi

The ayes have it, five to zero. And next we have our Park Director's Roundtable's report. Welcome, Director Figueredo. Looking forward to it.

One, but before you come up, I just want to say, if this is also the end of your presentation, is it? Okay. Yeah, so, yeah, I'm just sort of, Boris, can you just say one quick thing? Yes, this is wonderful. Thank you, Mitty, for giving us an update on all the wonderful things that Parks does. What really... resonate to me, all of it resonates, but to the, you know, the communicating with confidence, you know, building skills for our employees and not only for them with us, but, you know, as they throughout life. And so, and then also the Trail Ambassadors Program, you know, thank you for volun

Yeah, I just want to say that it is so wonderful to see you guys here. Thank you for bringing them here to share it with us. Congratulations, and thank you. for being here and spending time in the parks and doing the community some good. We really appreciate. And you know I love the bridges, so I'm very interested to see, is that really our own people that they set up the bridge, or did we have contractors to do that?

Nodding. Oh, my God. I'm very proud. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Great job. That's a lot of saving in cost saving for us to do that. And the price is unbelievable. Now that everything goes up, you could see something that is so effective and works that way. Congratulations to all of you. Thank you.

Love that time-lapse video. That was really cool. Yeah, I did.

It was great. I'm sure that Bob had something to do with it.

You know that you're just talking yourself into more work, right? Like, you can put a bridge up and now, you know. And I just wanted to add, I really appreciate the Trail Ambassadors program. My oldest is already looking into it, and she's just 12, so she's really excited about it. And I enjoyed trying to match all of y'all with the picture when you all have your helmets on, which is a really fun thing to try to do, is who is who. Everybody's bicycle helmet. Thanks for being here today, guys. We really appreciate it.

Yeah, just add my thanks, and thanks for being here. Hope you guys, hope you all have a really fun summer. And I don't know if you were into mountain biking before you got into this program, if you're just getting into it now, but we have some of the best trails for mountain biking in the whole region, as you probably now know. So I hope you all enjoy that, too.

Congratulations on being part of the program. You're very fortunate, and I look forward to all the exciting things that you continue to accomplish. And then I'd also like to compliment Ms. Figueredo on the presentation. The pictures that you shared during these presentations are very powerful, and it displays the excellent work that the parks do for the community and engaging the community. And the photographs are amazing. Thanks.

Okay, great. We'll take a break while we take this picture with our park ambassadors, and then we'll come back with our next item, item number five. And welcome back. We're on item number 514522 Jones Lane Administrative Subdivision and Forest Conservation Plan, where staff is recommending approval with conditions. And this morning, we have Adam Bossie with the Planning Department presenting this item. Welcome.

Thank you, Mr. Bossie, for your detailed report. We have one person, Joseph Jurgina, to provide public testimony this morning. Welcome, Mr. Jurgina. You have three minutes.

Yeah, thank you, Mr. Jagina. I don't quite understand what, maybe the staff can, on a graph, point out his property and his concerns and how they impact this project. Yeah, thank you.

OK. So Mr. Jurgina, we will send you our contact or something. And we will give you a number to call. What would you recommend, staff?

I understand. I just wanted to understand the issue.

And to clarify, so we reviewed the septic plans that are provided for the applicant that's West, if I'm orienting myself appropriately. To the west of them, the flag lot comes around. There's concern. And at the point of approval of permits and everything for the septic, they'll look directly at its effect on Mr. Juergen and his property there. That'll be taken into consideration with that.

Yeah, that was a certain issue. We'll get a detailed thing on the septic system for the applicant that will ensure that it meets required standards. It's been PERT tested, all that kind of stuff. Mr. Jurunga can work with DPS on any issues he has on his property, but our permitting systems will go in and make sure that the system that's going into the applicants won't have any impact on Or we'll meet the requirements that have no impact.

Let me just say that, because I know that. The septic area that they're showing is already approved by DPS as the concept. They have approved that this is based on the number of the bedrooms that is proposed. This area is already approved by DPS, and then the design of it would be when they get the permit.

That's what I was saying. We've approved design, placement, location, size. It's in the right time of soil, that kind of thing. The design of the actual system that will go in will have to be, will go through another permitting process to ensure that there's no contamination.

It's already decided it's the right soil. They should have done that, yeah.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. There's another bite at the apple for Mr. Juergen for concerns about anything that he has. The permitting service will do a detailed review of the actual system that goes in. When it's permitted. That's correct. This is the right place to put it.

Mm-hmm. Yep. So what I think when, just I'm going to ask one more question. When DPS looks at this and saying this is the right place for the current applicant septic field, are they evaluating what's all around it?

No. OK. OK. And they're not supposed to. This issue that he's talking about is totally separate than what is out in here. And here, the applicant has brought us something that is already approved by DPS for this. But I do not know how and what this Mr. Jonga property has been divided like that. Maybe they couldn't have built that house for that septic. So I don't know what has happened. But that is not in front of us. That's totally something different. So I don't know why it's being brought here.

Let's keep moving here. So thank you for your concern, Mr. Georgina. Please speak with DPS, OK? And my last question before we, I'm in support of this project. It was that you said the lot was never platted, just out of curiosity. So is the owner of the lot today is the same as the applicant or different?

Okay. So it had a meets and balances, but it was not platted, but it's a legal lot. You could sell it, whatever, but it just wasn't.

So to that point, nothing about the boundaries have changed with this subdivision. This is the boundaries for?

OK. All right. I have no other further questions or comments. Any other questions or comments from the board? No. So we have to make two. Can you go back to your final slide about the, so one is to approve the administrative subdivision, correct? Do I have a motion to approve? The administrative subdivision for Jones Lane, property 14522 Jones Lane. I'll move to approve the administrative subdivision. All in favor? Aye. The ayes have it. 5-0. Do I have a motion to approve the forest conservation plan where staff is recommending approval with conditions?

I'll move to approve the forest conservation plan. Second.

All in favor? Aye. The ayes have it. Thank you so much and thank you for staff taking our questions. It's a learning experience. We already voted, but are there many lots that don't have flats in the county?

Can I just say something? I learned that recently, that up to 1975, the requirement of platting was not required. So everything was done as a parcel, and platting was not then required. At 1975, then county required that any land transfer or construction has to be plotted and be on a plot. So DPS checks on that and doesn't issue any permit unless that parcel is plotted. So everybody has to go through this process. So probably this land has been sitting there before 1975. And now that they want to build something, if it was before that, they could do it. But now they cannot. They have to plot i

Thank you. Thank you. So we're just going to take one minute to turn over to the next project, which is item number 15, Clarksburg Town Center Preliminary Plan Amendment, where staff is recommending approval with conditions. Thank you. Welcome back. We're on item number 15, the Clarksburg Town Center Preliminary Plan Amendment, where staff is recommending approval with conditions. And this morning, we have Jonathan Casey with the Planning Department presenting this item. Welcome.

Would the applicant like to make a presentation?

Well, great. Well, thank you for your perseverance and moving this project forward. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's important, as you talk about, to achieve the vision, and you're really working really hard on that. My question is that, so what is, what do you year so that, to make sure you have... Everything is constructed before the end of the APF period, right? Because the APF means everything has to be built and operated by the time of the, or how does that work, just out of curiosity?

Okay, great. And could you give us a sense of You know, what are your plans between now and, you know, what you think will be under construction or break ground or pull permits? Just out of curiosity, you know.

OK, thank you so much. I have no further questions. Any questions or comments from the board? So we need one motion to, is there a motion to approve the, and then we need, we can include the Forest Conservation Plan, or just the, no, no, I'm sorry. I'm looking at something different. OK, just a preliminary plan amendment. So I have a motion to approve. approve the preliminary plan amendment for the Clarksburg Town Center.

Where staff is recommending approval with conditions. Go ahead and move to approve the preliminary plan amendment with conditions from staff.

All in favor? Aye. The ayes have it. 5-0. Thank you so much. We'll take a two-minute break and then start with our next item. Just go year 27, annual school tests and school utilization report. Thank you. Good morning and welcome back. We're on item number 16, the fiscal year 2027 annual school test and school utilization report, where staff is recommending that we certify, the board certifies the results of the school annual test and that will take effect July 1st, 2026. And this morning we have Heisu Beck with the planning department presenting this item. Thank you.

Can I ask a quick question on the Tier 3 school, on the elementary? I think I know the answer to this. is that that's not largely because of population increase or development. That's overcrowding of the school that's existing for that elementary. I don't think we've had anything in there that would

That's what I thought. Just to make it clear that the issue is mostly boundaries and not development. Just want to make sure we get that out there. But yeah, that one's been in the tier three since we've been doing this. I've thought it several times, if I remember correctly. And nobody has built anything. that would be in that catchment area. So a point to make that it's a boundary issue primarily, not a development one.

Not that we are here. Could you explain how you calculate utilization rate? I forgot. Sorry.

So is that done on a yearly basis, or is it following the same cycle?

specific school years enrollment that they see and then calculate the next five six years accordingly one one other observation just to build off of what commissioner hedrick was saying but if you look at um the placement of all of these um catchment areas at least on the elementary school level, they are all in the turnover impact area, right? And not the infill impact area. Basically meaning areas where we're looking, where we have and would look to see more infill development, particularly multifamily and various types like that. So it's just interesting and reinforces the point that it's t

And I think we've seen Burning Tree in the last few times as well. It's also been in this thing. I can't remember anything from there. You can see on the map. These are not places where we've approved development sites. This is not Germantown. This is not Clarksburg. There's a turnover area.

Yeah, it is turnover, but that's very interesting. I'm just wondering that could it be that we have the infill area with multifamily building, that that's the point of attention, focus that we have right now, but eventually people that they are in this multifamily buildings, they want to move out to other areas. And that turnover is the one that actually could impact these areas. I don't know. I'm just asking this question because You could see that people that they want to have children and family and pets, eventually they want to move out to something that gives them some more space. And tha

As I've said many times before, I'm the problem. I bought a house from a woman who was in her 70s who retired in North Carolina, and I immediately had three children. I will be a burden on the MCPS school system for the next 20-some odd years. But new construction isn't the problem. And these are not happening in areas where we are authorizing or allowing for new construction. Whereas what's happening is in places where People age. Other people buy their homes because they're long-term durable economic products. And our focus seems to largely be on our concern with new development when the pro

I'm not going anywhere after they're done with school. I will sit in that house until I die.

Per unit, yeah. And another quick question just based on your point. I know we've talked about this one before, so I apologize. I just don't remember, unfortunately. But applicants that go through, they get entitled. Beholden to the rates at the time of entitlement? No, it's at the time of pulling the building permit. So, okay. Okay. Got it. Yeah, thanks.

So because this is, we've talked about this a lot in the past, but because this is sort of a cohort view of elementary school enrollment leads to middle, leads to high school, and so on. Do we, with the recent drop-off, do we think that that is mostly slightly lower middle school enrollment, or is it a slightly lower continuation rate from middle school to high school? Like, are we seeing sort of more drop-off from middle school to high school recently, or are there just fewer middle school students in general?

It is interesting looking through, related to this point, like looking through the chart that's in the staff report, kind of, it is a huge range. Like there are middle schools with, there's one with 45% utilization projected and two within the 50s. And, you know, it's not like huge numbers at that level, but. you know, it clearly is sending signals for the need for some, you know, boundary adjustments, which, you know, I'm glad that kind of we're following the data in that sense, we in the broad sense, like the, you know, school system. That's, I'm sorry, that's it.

Do we see clustering within the imbalance, particularly at the lower and higher, the extreme ends of the distribution? Basically, are we seeing elementary schools within the same high school? catchment area with similar utilization issues, or are we seeing disparities in utilization within a high school like catchment area?

It would be interesting to see maybe for next year, a version of this that also highlights a few different categories of school areas, like those that are projected to be in the UPP tiers currently, those that have low utilization rates, just so we can see how like this housing analysis and particularly the turnover, particularly the sales data, how that relates to the projections on kind of both ends of the spectrum, because this is obviously a huge, this is really important and it's really interesting, but it would be cool to see that relationship maybe for next time.

Thank you, Ms. Beck. A lot of analysis. Thank you for doing that. I just want a couple quick questions. One is, There were three developments on the same block in the same year. And does someone keep account of the I mean, like, is there, you know, and they come to the board and do an analysis and, you know, this will create this many and this will create, do you keep that running total so that you know when the next project comes in where it fits in?

Okay, great. And my last question is, I know a lot of work goes into this. Do you think this needs to be done every year, or could it be done like some of the things we do every four years? I mean, is it... the real bang for the buck to need to do this every year in your estimation?

Oh, no, no, I'm not questioning Ms. Beck's role. I'm just saying sometimes, you know, we develop a law, we develop a policy, and then we keep doing the policy, but it just, every once in a while, put our heads up and say, is it right? Should we do it more frequently, less frequently? And that's all I was just saying. So thank you. Thank you. Those are my questions, and you answered them. Thank you so much.

Definitely not. One more thing. This really is the last thing. I also enjoy it whenever you come. I'm very excited about data, and it makes me happy. But for the... You're discussing with the board about the effects of their decision, Board of Education and things. Have we... emphasize the relatively minimal amount we get out of these utilization premium tiers. The actual amount of funds that we get for these is not high, which goes into the point of these are not large developments happening in these areas that meet these criteria. I remember last year, but I don't remember the numbers, it wa

We're already back to growth and infrastructure? Yes. I really feel like that was last minute.

Thank you. Okay, great. Thank you so much. Wonderful presentation. Thank you for all your hard work that has reminded a lot of a data analysis and coordination with the school. So do I have a motion to certify the results of the fiscal year 27 annual school tests that will take effect July 1, 2026. I'll move to approve.

All in favor? Aye. The ayes have it, 5-0. Thank you so much. We'll just take a one-minute break to turn over to the next item, which is item number seven, the Mahon Village Preliminary Plan and Final Forest Conservation Plan, where staff is recommending approval with conditions. Thank you. Good morning, everyone. We're on item number seven, the Mahon Village Preliminary Plan and Final Forest Conservation Plan, where staff is recommending approval with conditions. And this morning, we have Josh Penn presenting this item. Welcome, Mr. Penn.

Thank you so much, Mr. Penn. Would the applicant like to make a presentation?

Thank you so much. You took the words out of my mouth when I first saw the site plan. Wow, that's an interesting So thank you for being creative and providing for housing. You know, we have a housing crisis. And also, this is an opportunity for what looks like for sale housing, which is really needed in the county. So thank you for that. And you also mentioned, I was wondering, to the west, there's a stormwater management pond. So it does add a feature here. And also having the Category 1 forest there, easement and with the walkways through it, I think it really adds, gives a place for people

And apparently there's a school, some school to the south, some, no, to the, is it? There's a library.

Okay, great. Thank you. Those are my questions and comments. Any other questions and comments?

Just for the, I think, again, I agree. It's a good project. It's really creative and good use, I think, of that with the density and the type of housing to fit. So I think it's really interesting. Other than that, just the reforestation that you mentioned in the pot hooks at Watershed, is that a possibility to put, is that in the... Is there a way we can do that? Are there any objections to attempting to find a way to do that reforestation within the watershed?

I'm sorry, your comment. I missed it. Oh, the comment from the Patuxent Watershed Group, the reforestation to be within the watershed if possible. And I just want to make sure that we highlighted that. If it is, if there's an available bank and it's feasible, I think it would be just to make sure that that gets in there, that we try to do that if possible.

Yeah, I think that's a good idea because they are looking at off-site, so that may help that they could plant it there. The other thing that I like about this, in addition that it is opportunity for for sale, is the size, the small compact size that makes it extremely, I hope, I believe it does, affordable. So this is something that would add not only for sale, but makes it something that is more affordable.

Questions or comments from the board? Should we do one or two approvals here? Do I have a motion to approve the Mahon Village preliminary plan where staff is recommending approval with conditions and corrections and some language around the potential, if it works out, to do the reforestation in the watershed?

No. I'll move to approve the preliminary plan with conditions and the comments from today.

Aye. The ayes have it. 5-0 to have a motion to approval of the final forest conservation plan where staff is recommending approval with conditions. I'll move to approve the forest conservation plan.

Aye. The ayes have it. Thank you so much. We look forward to the project moving forward. Thank you. Thank you very much. Very creative. We're just going to take another two-minute break and then start with our next item, item eight, Tevis Place staging allocation. Thank you. Good morning and welcome back. We're on item number eight, Tevis Place staging allocation request for staff is recommending approval. And we have Adam Bossie again this morning to present this item.

Great, thank you. First, would the applicant like to make a presentation?

Well, great. Thank you. So just for our – I'm very, very surprised. of this project. And one of the questions is, maybe you can tell us, in the staging, what goes into a staging analysis, like making sure there's infrastructure there for these projects in this area? Could you just talk a little bit for our benefit?

Great, great. Thank you so much. Any questions or comments from the board? Hearing or seeing none, is there a motion to approve Tevis Place staging allocation request? Yeah, where staff is recommending approval.

I'm jumping on you a lot today. Already my apologies. But yes, I would move to approve the staging allocation request.

Aye. The ayes have it. Thank you so much. Yeah, I look forward to the project moving forward. And we'll just take a one-minute break to switch over for our next item, which is also about staging allocation, which is the Pike and Rose Phase 2 Building 2 project. Thank you. Hello, and welcome back. Sorry, we had some technical difficulties. We're on item number nine, Pike and Rose phase two, building two, staging allocation requests, where staff is recommending approval with condition. And Mr. Gatling from the Montgomery Planning presenting this item. Thank you.

This question was lingering in my head even for the last one before. So I don't understand why they have already done the design, they have done already the work and everything, and they come to us for approval. I understand that we still have a good number of units left, If I was a developer, I would get nervous if it gets very close to the end and you have just a few units left and I'm still working and I'm not ready to do it. How are you going to do that? Because they spend a lot of money to get to this stage. And then we approve it right before they go to construction. Is that what we are

So what if that by the time they get here, they go over the limit? Are we going to stop them?

Yeah, because I understand even the scope of work or whatever is not a guarantee that it's going to happen. So if I'm a developer and this is getting close, to where my range is, I'm not going to work on it. Because I'm worried that I'm going to spend money and then come here, someone else has come for me that I didn't know or whatever, and I would be stuck. So this is anti-development, in my opinion. Just saying that.

Yes, thank you for your presentation with the applicant like to make a presentation.

Great. Thank you. I have one question. It says this is for an R&D building. Do you know what it is? It's just for?

Great, great. Thank you so much. I have no other questions or comments. Does the board have any questions or comments?

Just that it was sad to see Park Social go. It's exciting to see an office come. Uh, but yeah, that's, you know, park social was kind of such a unique space. And I think, I don't know, I don't remember exactly. I think maybe that that company is having broader challenges. I can't remember exactly their situation, but this is obviously really exciting, um, addition to, to the neighborhood. So yeah, excited to see it come to fruition.

Yeah, as Commissioner or Vice Chair said, I mean, to also have an office building built in this market is, you know, it's positive. Okay, thank you. No other questions or comments? So do I have a motion to approve with conditions the Pike and Rose Phase 2 Building 2 staging allocation request?

I'll move to approve with conditions the staging allocation request. Second.

All in favor? Aye. Aye. The ayes have it. Thank you so much. I look forward to you moving forward. We'll take another just really quick break and start with item number 10, the local government annual reporting to Maryland Department of Planning, where this is a briefing to staff. Thank you. Good morning. We're on item number 10, the local government annual reporting to Maryland Department of Planning, where staff has given a briefing to the board. And I believe this is Gabriel Patterson King leading this. I'm sorry, Jay. Jay McCurdy leading this discussion. A welcome, and we look forward to t

Thank you so much for your presentation, and also thank you for putting together and analyzing this data. It's just very, very helpful. Have you, just out of curiosity, have you seen, well, I know this is for those priority funding areas and how, you know, there's incentivizing to do this, but have you seen, so does the state then compile their own, this is to the state, and then they compile their own report and they make comments on it?

Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions or comments from the board? So we'll have one motion to submit this local government and annual reporting to the Maryland Department of Planning. And first it goes to the council, correct? To both. We'll send them to both. Is that what you're saying? Yes. Thank you. Yeah. Ed, do I? That's the motion.

All right. All right. Yeah, move to approve it and send it to both organizations.

All in favor? Aye. Aye. Thank you for your hard work. We appreciate it. And what we'll do now is, so the board is going to go to closed session and then have lunch, and then we'll come back, what does it say? We'll come back at 1.05. So with respect to the closed session, according to Maryland Annotated Code, General Provisions Article 3-305 to consider the acquisition of real property for a public purpose and matters directly related to the acquisition. The subject is Montgomery Park's potential property acquisition. Do I have a motion to go into closed session?

All in favor? Aye. Aye. The ayes have it 5-0. So thank you. We're going to go into closed session, have lunch, and then come back at 1.05. See you then. Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome back. We're on item number six, updated forest conservation technical manual, where staff is recommending that we approve the updated forest conservation technical manual. And this afternoon, we have Kristin today presenting this item. Welcome, Kristin.

Can I ask a quick question on that? Is there a quick way to describe what structural soil is?

Yeah, that's really cool. I hadn't heard about that.

Can I just add something? Because we used it actually in civil engineering. It's not in the tank like that building the structure, but exactly what she talked about. They are designed, they're actually designed, the granular different particles in the soil are designed for the certain purposes. So if it is done for allowing the roots to come in, they design it in a way that roots can go at the same time can act like a regular compacted soil to hold the sidewalk or something on it.

Well, thank you. Thank you for your very detailed presentation. Yep, I'm so excited you're able to update this, to bring it to today's standards, today's best practices, update it with respect to the state standards. And I really love the graphics. So I'm hoping that the practitioners you know, I hope that they see the benefit of having this revised document. So thank you. Any other questions or comments?

Yes. I'm sure that everybody would love that. I have worked with a lot of technical manual, and it is really a blessing to have something up to date and as clean and as nice. It's really nice presented. One thing that I really loved about it is the template. You said that they're like Excel templates. that people can just download it, and everything is there. You could just put the number and calculate. Because I was going to... I saw that and said, I hope they have done that, and you have done that. So that is really good. And I do not know how many you have done, but I think that anything th

So if I just come there and I say, OK, take me to see that I can do the calculations for this specific or how can I do the maintenance or what does it take if I want to understand this and that and I just put it there and takes me right to the right chapter and the right page and say here look at it. That exists. That's wonderful. Congratulations. Actually it's 32 years. 32 years took a long time.

One of the things governments do well is providing information and resources for citizens to be successful. And this is an example of it. It ensures success. And it's a pathway to accomplishment using proven methods and techniques in the best interests of the public. You did an outstanding job presenting this. And you're one of the many excellent presenters that Jason and Robert have an opportunity to work with and share with us here. So you've done an outstanding job. Thank you.

It's excellent, excellent work. So yeah, congrats to the whole team, everyone who worked on it. And I hope it'll be used well for a long time, hopefully not 30 years before it's updated again. But yeah, it's really excellent work, and thanks for the presentation about it.

Thank you. Yeah, thank you again. Just out of curiosity, we can answer offline. Do you feel that with AI these days, I'm sure once it's put up there, it can take this document. And I wonder if someone could say, could you fill out my forest conservation thing based on the requirements in this manual? I'm just out of curiosity. I wonder, would it do that?

OK. Thank you so much. And so do I have a motion to approve? the updated Forest Conservation Technical Manual.

James is not here, so I'll be honored to take his job and move to approve the updated Forest Conservation Technical Manual.

All in favor? Aye. The ayes have it 4-0. So thank you so much. Great presentation, great work, and look forward to it.

CHRISTOPHER HARRIS JR.: OK, please. Please jump.

And we'll start with our next item, which is item 12, Cabin John Park, section 1, preliminary plan, site plan, where staff is recommending approval with conditions. Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome back. We're on item number 12, Cabin John Park, Section 1, Preliminary Plan, Site Plan, where staff is recommending approval with conditions. And this afternoon, we have Elza Heisel McCoy presenting this item. Welcome.

I do have a question on number 12. How can you clear – how can you demolish a structure and related site infrastructure without – clearing or grading it, especially when water runoff or erosion can occur upon the demolition?

Thank you, Mr. Heisel-McCoy. We have several people to provide public testimony. I'd like to hear from them first before we go to the applicant, OK? So we have two in person, Richard Thompson of the MacArthur Park Homeowners Association and Peter Coste of the Cabin John Citizens Association. Each will have six minutes. And then we will go on to teams for three presentations. Thank you so much.

Thank you for your testimony. And next will be Richard Thompson.

Yes. Staff is going to pull that up for you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you both for your testimony. Any questions? No. Our process, we listen to all of the... Okay. Are we able to go to teams now? Okay, great. So we have three people that are testifying on teams, Timur Tunadur, Elliot Milholland, and Michael, Michelle Rosenfeld. So we'll start with Mr. Tunadur.

So you should, you should wrap up your presentation. Okay.

Yeah, thank you for your testimony. I just want to make one thing clear. There's no zoning change here. Okay, so just... Oh, there's not. Okay, cool. All right, thank you. Okay, thank you. All right, we'll go to our next person, Elliot Milholland.

Thank you so much. Next is our last person is Michelle Rosenfeld. Thank you.

Thank you so much for your testimony. Would the applicant come up and present his presentation?

Would you all like to get started with your presentation?

Thank you so much. Thank you for your presentation. Just a couple things. One is a clarification with staff and one of the conditions or corrections or you wanted to add that potential for demolition before they got like building permit. And also you talked about and related site infrastructure. Does that mean they can install related site infrastructure before getting a building or demo and whatever is currently their related site infrastructure? I didn't understand which one.

Okay, that's what I thought, but I just should be, you know, make sure.

There are two separate permits. One is demolition permit and one is a building permit. And they can do the demolition permit and demolish And that is, again, based on the requirements from DPS. And they definitely, after they demolish, they have to stabilize the site. So they could demolish it, bring it to the grade, and then they have to stabilize the site until they get their building permit that they can start the construction. I don't think these things have foundation. Sometimes there is also a foundation permit, but I don't think you have that.

Agreed. As I just meant, existing site infrastructure now. Okay. The other, so yep, I appreciate you. We definitely need more housing. And so I'm supportive of the housing. In terms of the stormwater management, my question is, I mean, I feel that based on you increasing the perviousness or decreasing the imperviousness that the stormwater management will be improved. with also the green features, the environmental features that is better than what you have now, what's going on there now. And I understand that when you go for your final stormwater management permit, whatever, the DPS, do they

No, no. Some community members were concerned about the existing conditions, whether they came from the property or not. I don't know. Were they exacerbated by what's on the property? I know that this property that The proposed property will create less, but what about the existing conditions not related to this potential of this property? That is looked at separately somewhere else. How does that look? If people have drainage issues in the community, that's not part of this application, correct?

Okay, thank you. Maybe east, maybe west, but it's okay. And my last question to Steph is that in a CRT zone, you can have residential. So I have no problems with that. It's part of the CRT zone. But are you, in order to... have the five units, or we have to use some of the C to get the density for the five units, or none of the C is being used in the calculation of density for this?

Okay, great, great. So I'm supportive of this project. There will be less runoff, right, than before. And it's what... Not now, ma'am. So there is, and it meets the requirements in the CRT zone. So that is, and also, as Ms. Rosenfeld said, if you, this in terms of screening from the adjacent properties, I don't know what the zone currently has you're supposed to do, but if the applicant is willing to work with the adjacent neighbors to do some prudent screening That would be wonderful, yeah.

OK. OK, thank you. Okay, great. Would that be a modified condition?

Perfect. Okay. I'd like to hear from my fellow board members on this.

I have a comment. I appreciate the community members coming in to make comments with regards to their interest in the new development and the concerns with regards to storm water runoff. But based upon the information we received here today, I think the storm water management will be better with a new development there. I'd like to commend Mr. Rupert and Mr. Woodward for taking a risk and to make a small development in a community, an oasis such as this one, to give people an opportunity to live where larger developers might not take that risk. You've decided to take the risk to share in your

I think this design is frankly, Mr. Rupert, is a very beautiful design. It's a compromise, and I really like that. Frankly, you can come to my neighborhood as long as you keep the same vigor. It's really done, and I think that I know the community concern, but I think that, frankly, we see a lot of development here. The vigor they have, they live in the same neighborhood. So that would be the best opportunity for everyone to make something out of that area that is there. I just want to clarify a few things because that's what I have been doing. Stone water management is separate than stone dra

Any other questions, comments from the board members?

No, I think it's a good and creative, legitimate use of the CRT zone that's there, what it's for. Honestly, I hope we see more of these. in these spaces. They're good developments. They're tight. They're filling spaces that wouldn't be filled with much else. And I think it's clear from the history that we can't wave a magic wand and put a commercial space of any type in a spot and hope that it lives and it just won't happen. So this is something that's got a reasonable chance to be sustainable in that place as nothing else has been. So I think it's good. I'm supportive of the project.

Vice Chair Linden. Yeah, just briefly. Yeah, I share a lot of the same thoughts that have been already said. There's a lot to like about this project, a lot of it you already mentioned. And this is a unique site, clearly, and it's also a rare opportunity to put, you know, as Commissioner Hedrick mentioned, sort of tightly packed but still attractive and appealing homes for people in a really appealing attractive desirable neighborhood right and it's it's a chance to welcome more people into a neighborhood that a lot of people want to live in clearly like you're very proud to live in your neigh

Hearing no other comments or questions from the commissioners, we have to have two votes here. And the big picture, and hopefully you're hearing that this there will be less runoff on this site than before. No, sir. No.

Move to approve the preliminary plan with conditions. Yeah.

Yeah. So there are two votes, the motion to approve the preliminary plan with conditions and corrections.

Yeah, with conditions and corrections as provided by staff.

All in favor? Aye. Aye. The ayes have it. 5-0. Is there a motion to approve the forest conservation plan with the staff recommended approval with conditions? I'm sorry. Oh, is there a site plan? I'm sorry. Oh, I'm thinking. OK.

Is there a motion to approve the site plan with conditions?

Move to approve the site plan with conditions.

All in favor? Aye. The ayes have it. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you for coming out and providing your testimony. And we will take a three-minute break and start with our next item, item number 13, the Elmer School Farm Administrative Subdivision and Forest Conservation Plan. Thank you. Item number 13, the Elmer School Farm Administrative Subdivision Plan and Forest Conservation Plan, where staff is recommending approval with conditions. This afternoon, we have Jane Perser presenting this item. Welcome.

Sorry. I was trying to be quiet about that, but it didn't work. With the net tract and non-net, can you go back one slide? My apologies. I was just curious on the forest saved. So it's in the green here. Which is in the net tract and outside of the net tract area? Because I was curious about that. That 3.25 and 2.08... Because it all looks to be out of the net tract area to me, so I was just checking on how that was calculated.

So it all works out. In addition to the LODs. So that's what's combined with the 3.25 that's saved as part of the net tract.

And forced stream buffer at the bottom. Yeah, that's interesting. Thank you. I appreciate the explanation. Really nothing more than my own curiosity for that. But thank you for...

And this was sort of, from staff's perspective, this was kind of like the optimal way of doing that, to push it together, to buffer. Was this suggestion coming from them, or is this kind of how staff work with them to kind of locate where it would be?

Yes. Thank you. So would the applicant like to make a presentation?

Thank you so much. Any of the board members have any questions, comments?

Just one kind of process question. And I'm sorry if you mentioned this at the beginning, but this is an administrative approval that came to us. And that happens sometimes in other contexts. But what was the reason that this one had to come to us?

Okay. Anything over five acres in the AR? Yes. Okay.

We're trying to give as much of our work to Jason as possible.

So that specifically is for subdivisions in the AR zone for lots above five acres. But this was... I know this is a bit maybe a rabbit hole, but this was two parcels. So is the reason it was technically being subdivided because they were changing the boundary of one of them?

Got it. Thanks. But with this forest conservation plan, would it have had to come to us regardless or no?

Okay. Great. Thank you. Well, thank you for presentation. I have no further questions. Any other board members have? Commissioner Bartley? Okay. So there's a – we'll do two motions. Is there – A motion to approve the administrative subdivision plan for Elmer's School Farm. Yeah, I'll move to approve the administrative subdivision plan. All in favor? Aye. Aye. The ayes have it. 5-0. Is there a motion to approve the forest conservation plan with conditions for the Elmer's School Farm property? Yeah. Move to approve the forest conservation plan as well with conditions.

Aye. The ayes have it. Thank you so much. We'll just take a quick break, one minute. Hang in there in your seats, and we're going to go to item number 14, water and sewer category change requests, May 2026, county council review group, where staff is recommending, transmitting recommendations to the county council. Thank you. Our last item of today, it's item 14, water and sewer category change request, May 2026, County Council Review Group, where staff is recommending transmitting comments to the County Council. And this afternoon, we have Haley Johnson and Mark Sembrowski presenting this ite

Sorry, just the question is that can the existing ground afford, accommodate a sewer for the assisted living? If we say denied, can they still build the assisted living with the sewer? Do they have space? I don't know how big it is.

And they accommodate that, because it's big, probably. I don't know if they have enough land. That's the question.

So they may not be able to do the work, the building. That's quite possible.

I'm not sure, but it's possible. So one of the things, they may have to come back. If they're denied, then I'm not sure they would come back. And they'd have to figure it out, right? And then maybe they'll come back and say, They can petition. I don't know what they say. But one of the questions, why don't we take this one by one? The first one, so we don't get too far away from us, if you don't mind, the first one, they didn't meet the requirements. You said they didn't count executives. Are we OK with the board? I mean, just so we can just do them, check them off. When was that? I mean, I'm

Okay, let's go to this. Now we're on this one. My only question, though, the second one is why does a nonprofit have an advantage over a for-profit? Why did they set up the law that way? Do you know?

Frankly, I have asked that question many times, and I think that there is no, I guess, technical reason for that. I believe it's more something to give away for institutional facilities.

I have one more question. So if they get denied, because I understand what you're saying, but I'm sitting here and saying, okay, assisted living is a public service that is good for the community to have. I understand the difference between profit or non-profit, but service is a service. So what is the recourse? If we say no, And they cannot do that. So can they appeal? What is the appeal process that they can build it and get the sewer?

Assuming is no. The answer is no. What is the recourse?

Well, DPS just look at the size, and the size doesn't accommodate. If they have to make the size so big, I don't know, because this, depending on how many bedrooms they have to provide, and this is a facility, it's going to be a lot. So it may completely make them that they're not able to build it, The question is that if that's the case, do they have a recourse, or they just have to say they can't do it?

They can apply again. She says she knows. Wait a second. Okay. Oh, she's the applicant? Yeah, yeah. Yes. Why don't you come on up, please, then? Yeah. Please sit down and you can state your name and you have, what, three minutes? You have no time? Okay, you can take all day. No, don't take all day.

Yeah, this is a nice facility, and that's why I'm saying that if we deny it, then we're taking something that is a public service away.

Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Do anyone have any questions of the applicant? So my question is, what would it take for them to go to the council? How would they do it? They're not a non-profit, but because of the use, it's a... Yes.

for-profit commercial service policy in the water and sewer plant yeah so uh i would recommend i mean i'm just talking aloud to the board maybe there's a we can't is maybe recommend that for maybe they almost like a zta when they do it for a certain thing is there like you could say for senior facility. I don't know. It's commercial, but if the niche is for senior or something like that with Would they open the door for that?

I was going to ask a question. I'm trying to make sure I'm understanding it. Sewer and water is available to all of the plots that are in red surrounding the application plot. And I know we've come before to different, when we've had the water and sewer come before us, that adjacent properties, properties that are adjacent to certain access are usually allowed in or allowed to do it if they wouldn't otherwise be. Is there a reason that this one's not in the envelope, or the water and sewer is not to those red properties yet. Is that what I'm understanding? And they're adjacent and eligible, bu

That was a Potomac-specific policy we've discussed in the past. Okay. It's not, but we don't have, that's not a general peripheral policy based on. It's not countywide. Okay.

How difficult it is just this area put a request to change from RE2 to RE1? Point of view. I don't know, but I frankly cannot support. I don't know what it means if we don't support. I don't know, but I cannot just support it because Regardless of whatever it is, it's not right. So we have these policies or these, I don't know what I call it, zoning ordinance or things that 99% or 98% of the time they make sense. It happens that there is 1% or 2% outlier there. And I'm just sitting there, and I just cannot bring my conscience to say no to this.

So why don't we hear from some of the other board members. I would recommend just we move forward with the recommendations that the staff had, but put in a transmittal that we feel that for public, this is like a public, needed public service, assisted living, and that there could be some exception for that in the next, I mean, just like they do for ZTA or some other, just kind of push WSSC or whatever for that. But I want to hear from the other board members.

Can I make a quick recommendation? Sorry, just for the Transmittal Letter for that point. I'm sorry, I've been going back and forth and trying to make sure that I'm understanding it. The actual distance proximity to sewer and water lines is not far, as far as I can tell, right? Were this Potomac, we would probably be having a proximity discussion.

I was going to say, that was 1,000 feet, something like that? It was a long way, maybe more?

Oh, good Lord. Okay. So I was way off, but long. Um, yeah, it was just, sorry for the point of a transmittal letter. I think that there's a reasonable, we're a little boxed in with the existing policy, but I think it's worth pointing out possibly in a transmittal letter that Other similar parts of the counties have a policy in place on the master plan to allow for cases such as this. They would still have to require these, and if I remember correctly, pay per linear foot. Is that correct? There's a cost per linear foot to connect?

OK. The point being, they would still have to invest money to connect to the sewer to pay for the cost of those extensions and connections?

OK. Just to the point, Chair, I think it's worth putting in that there are other parts of the county which have a policy to address edge cases like this. Any extension would be covered by the cost of the applicant, and there's a reasonable proximity to both sewer and water connection, if I'm getting this correct. We are kind of boxed in with the thing, but I think it might be worth putting in the transmittal letter.

Yeah, just an excellent point, I think, and also that, I mean, I think it'd just be worth giving the applicant an opportunity to make a case to who they need to make a case to for, you know, a practical application. I think that I would not want to see the septic system that would cover a 40-unit. I think that would be. Possibly also environmentally an issue and things like that. I think it's worth giving, I think, the applicant at least information and knowledge needed to make the case to where it needs to be made at that point. So just my point to the chair.

So... Ask a quick process question. The way this, I know we've been through this before, but the way this works from here is we make a recommendation to council. Council then takes into consideration our recommendation, the county executive's recommendation, and then they make a recommendation to WSSC. Is that it?

Yeah. So in terms of do we do a transmittal letter with accepting staff's recommendations, just based on what we're hearing, it's pretty clear that the policy is the policy. And it does feel difficult to make a recommendation outside of the policy. But if our intent through the transmittal letter is to get the county council to make a different recommendation or to get the committee to make a different recommendation to the council, which would then make the resolution that contradicts both us and the county executive and to say, yes, we want this to MDE.

I think what I'm sort of getting at, and maybe I'm coming to this idea as I'm talking now, but this process, is it fair to compare this process a little bit to the mandatory referral process in the sense that we're not making a regulatory decision here. We're taking into consideration policy and guidance and zoning, or not zoning, but policy and guidance. And because of that, I think I feel comfortable making a recommendation in line with what we would actually hope would happen and not make one recommendation with a transmittal letter that actually says, actually, we know we said no, but you

I second that if you move it to that. I think that's what we should do. If there is a possibility to do the right thing, I think we should do that. If you move on, or I can move on, then I second.

Well, I hear what you're saying. And whatever the board wants to do, it does. But I was saying that based on the policy, meet. It doesn't meet, right? It does not meet. So my point, it does not meet. I agree with the county exec and the planning staff that it does not meet the policy. However, we feel because of the use, the public purpose of the use, they should revisit that commercial and a commercial service policy to include a use like this so that these types of projects can move forward. That's kind of what I meant.

And I support that, but I think what we're talking about almost flips it on its head. So instead of saying maintain S6, we'll say actually change. And in the transmittal letter, we say We recognize this does not be policy staff recommended to maintain because it does not be policy. And here are the reasons why we think that you as council should consider changing some version of that.

So Mr. Bartlett, what are your thoughts?

All captured it beautifully. This is a private facility with the public interest in it. So I think you all have captured it beautifully. It's a private facility with the public intent and purpose, and I think that there should be some flexibility. I think you guys have discussed the issue well. Thanks.

Okay, so then why don't we do this? I appreciate what the Vice Chair and Commissioner Petterm said, and if you make a motion to that, I would I would support that for that reason.

Why don't you motion you talk better? What you said is exactly what I want. So you say it, I second it.

OK, I'll see if I can get this right. We can kind of workshop this. So I'll move to recommend changing to S3. Is that it? S3? Yes. and transmitting that recommendation to county council. In addition, including a transmittal letter that acknowledges the staff recommendation, acknowledges the policy that underpins the staff recommendation, and that we're going against that and explaining some of the reasons why we think this is a policy. desirable instance of, or explain our position that the policy is problematic and this is a desirable exception to that policy. I second. Because of the public

All right. All in favor? Aye. OK. Let's go on to the next one.

Thank you so much. We have the applicant here wanting to make a presentation, please.

Thank you so much, the board. I'm in support of this, the staff's and the county's X recommendation. I assume you are too. Okay, okay, great, thank you. Okay, the last one, please.

I don't think we have anyone here to... Okay, no applicant on this one. So I'm supportive of county execs and the planning staff's recommendation.

Well, here we go again. Sorry. We are sitting here and all the time pulling our hair to have more housing. And this is that they want to put Two apartments here. I don't know how many housing. And we just flatly reject it.

Well, I mean, I'm honestly with you on that. That's the reason it zoned RE1 and RE2 is so that we don't do that. I mean, that's the reason that there's low density. I know. It's the reason low density zoning was chosen. If it were a reasonable zoning applied to it, we wouldn't be having these conversations. It wouldn't be .

I know that when we were doing all the housing, they say that places that they have. But I do not know how easy it is to connect this to sewer.

If that happens, they would then have access to sewer, correct? Yes.

And we don't know much about it. Yeah, there's nothing that came with this about this. So that's why I don't know what these properties are, what they're trying to do. So once they come back in, what are these properties? Do you know? The proposed?

And given the current state of the property and the policies we have in place, the answer to that is no.

Thank you for giving us that information. That's very helpful.

I think, in general, we're making kind of a bit of a fine distinction here, but there's, I think, a difference between a proposal, a plan for a proposal of a use of a property that is private but but a reasonably decent community use and has plans run up as opposed to somebody who has two apartments that are not permitted through conditional use on their place and wants water and sewer. And I assumed from the thing, the apartments are small ADU units. I assume not. Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't matter. But, yeah, I mean, this is a case for an administrative subdivision reworking if they want water

I'm good with that. I mean, we're ready to move on. Okay. So we're consistent. Mm-hmm. County exec said no, staff said no, we say no, OK?

Is there anything else we need to go over?

Ms. Weiss, you have enough. Do we need to vote anymore on anything, or are we good? We said... Okay. Yes. Great. Is there a motion on the four cases we discussed?

I really want to make a motion of transmitting all the things we just said. I don't know if that's the appropriate way to make that motion. Yeah, motion to transmit our comments and approvals to the county council on the four just discussed here based on the comments today.

Second. Correct, because we were consistent on one, three, and four, and we're different on number two. Great. Okay, great. There's a motion. All in favor? Aye. The ayes have it. Thank you so much. This ends our planning board meeting for today. Thanks, everyone.

We love that. Thank you so much. Everyone have a great week, and we'll see you next Thursday. Thank you.