City Council - Regular Meeting

Magic number. Okay, this is a special open session to hear public comments before closed session. Roll call, please.

Okay. Public comment is closed and we will now adjourn to closed session.

It is now time to start the regular meeting of the Richmond City Council. We'll begin with the pledge of allegiance. with liberty and justice for all.

Yeah, for the record I would like to be added as co-sponsor or item O11.

Mr. Mayor, can I add to agenda review? I would like to suggest that items 09, 010, and 011 be put on the consent calendar.

There won't be any time tonight. Can we have a vote at the council?

Well, yeah, I don't support that, but... Can I make a motion? You may.

Do I have any second for item 09, establishing a disaster preparedness commission for the city of Richmond?

Can I make a friendly amendment that we separate this into three separate votes to place this on the consent calendar?

Yeah, that's what I'm doing. So my first motion is only for 09. Thank you. I second that. Thank you.

Okay. Do I have a second for putting item 010 on the consent calendar? Apply for grant funding to acquire an armored rescue vehicle and a rapid rescue armored vehicle for the Richmond Police Department.

Okay. Item 011, identify potential venues for cultural education and practice by Richmond's minority cultural groups. I second that. Thank you.

Yes. So I would like to request to move item 07 up in the agenda so that we could possibly hear it tonight. I believe this is an urgent issue to be able to understand and clarify for the council and the public the current state of our financials, the city's financials, and that it can't wait another meeting to give the direction so that the work can start. I'm sorry, what is the motion about? It's not a motion. It's a request to move the item 07 up in the agenda so we can possibly hear it tonight because I believe it's an urgent issue that we need to clarify our financial situation as a city f

I understand, but why don't you put it on consent calendar?

I didn't know if anybody wanted to discuss it.

what is directing the city manager to come up with information, so just put it on the consent calendar. Okay, I can ask.

I second to put it on the consent calendar. On the consent calendar.

May I ask a procedural question? There's a deadline on there. We have a new city manager. I want to make sure. It's his first meeting, so we're saying to do something within the next 20 days. I want to make sure that that's enough time.

And maybe to clarify, this was not a full financial analysis research. It was basically presenting clear numbers for where we ended the past three years in terms of did we have deficits, did we have a surplus. and clearly outlining things so that the public can understand. It was not a full analysis.

Right. If I might, it does say to direct city manager to engage a qualified municipal advisor to independently review the financial information for accuracy and consistency so that this means we'd have to put out an RFP, right? Which couldn't be done.

Okay. Thank you for that. Then my vote is yes.

I have my hand up for agenda review as well.

I would like to move item 06 just to be heard before item 01 because the EFF presentation is supposed to give us information to guide our decision about the axon contract. So I would like to hear that presentation before we further discuss the axon contract as a request to the chair.

I have a procedural question, Ms. Moore. Since the item 01, we were already in the middle of it. It should technically continue. So I don't know that we are able to just move stuff around since we were in the middle of that presentation.

Yeah, actually, the way I see things, let's see what, yeah. 06 will be the first item. 01 will be the second item. That's the contract amendment. And then the item that was pulled from the consent calendar, which is N7A, contract amendment number one with police strategies, would be heard next. So that would be number three. Number four would be the Keller Beach. Sanitary sewer, 04, Keller Beach Sanitary. Number two would be on-street accessible parking program. That would be fifth. Sixth would be presentation on the proposed veterans housing project at 338 Carlson Boulevard. Seven would be, w

The mayor. Mr. Mayor. Yes. Sorry, if you can hear me. I have a procedure question. So on our city council rules, it says items not completed, items carried over from a previous meeting should be continued as the first order of business within the appropriate category. So I just want to make sure, is that still within the city attorney's guidance?

Yeah. So it says the council will make that decision. And we've made that decision.

It actually doesn't say that. That's the sentence before that. But okay. As long as the attorney is okay with that. Okay.

Mr. Mayor, can I ask the item 010 because it's related to the police to be moved after 01 while the police staff are here so they can go home afterwards?

Well, the other items have to do with Axion, and that item doesn't.

Well, it's related to the police department, so can we have it after the items related to the police department? All the items related to police be followed by O10?

Friendly amendment N7A is also related to axon. So if you wanted to actually group the axon things together, I would put it fourth.

Right. That's what I was going to say before you interrupted.

Okay. Excuse me, can you wait until the translation starts up?

Mr. Mayor, while there is a break, can I just mention that this group are here in support of item 011, identify potential venues for cultural education and practice by Richmond's minority cultural groups.

Excuse me. Her time was running while the council member was speaking. And I don't want us to take the public's time away. So we'll give you extra time.

Yes, I would like to give her 20 more seconds because Councilmember Bonner took some of her time.

Okay, thank you. Your time is up now, but I appreciate it.

Mr. Mayor, I have a procedure question. Yes, please. If I can, for the city, Ms. Moore. So the process and the council rules for removal of items from consent calendar says items removed from the consent calendar should be placed at the end of the agenda for consideration. Those are our council rules in order to move anything up. We will need to do a motion to move it up, aside from already just putting it on there. It's a motion to move it up from the bottom to wherever we want it, and then that will require a two-thirds vote.

Page 13 references suspensions of the rules. So in order to not follow the rule as it's written, then that means we must suspend our own rules that the council voted for. So to move something, we must suspend something.

Well, it's not up to the mayor. The council rules. So the city attorney has to find out.

We are following past practice and we have moved things for you without any without any contest. So I don't know why tonight is a night that you choose to follow the rules when you have it in the past.

I understand that. I don't think it's necessary.

Thank you. If that's the end of the presentation, we'll go to public comment.

Thank you. Now it's time for discussion. Do we have any questions or comments? Go ahead, Bana.

Thank you, Ms. Hamid, for the presentation. I appreciate it. And you mentioned ring network. Could you elaborate on that?

Thank you. Do you have any data on the number of like ring cameras in the city of Richmond by residents, HOAs, businesses?

Okay, my point is the data already exists out there, even if our police doesn't use it. Actually, I should tell you that our residents are educating me about these. I was totally pro cameras, but I received many questions, lots of information, and I'm grateful to all of them. Some of them are affiliated with nonprofits and told me a lot about them. The things I hear about ring networks, all the ring cameras being connected with each other, it's really scary. It's horrible. It's a lot worse than ALPR. And with the AI coming into the picture and with government, the current federal government we

how does it happen and how can we keep it from happening?

Excuse me, I want a specific answer. Okay, I understand the data can be accessed in unauthorized ways, it can be leaked, whatever. My question is, do we have the technology to block that all? Do we have the technology to have our own data and keep it safe and secure?

I'm sorry, you said the technology is there as possible, but the policy is not possible? I'm confused. You said there are three layers. Technology, use policy, implementation. And because of the complications between the, and interactions between the three layers, there is ambiguity. Can we clarify it? And as you said, the technology is there, we can do it. The policy, we can do it properly. And what's wrong with the implementation? Could you elaborate on that?

I hear you, but you say there is a human factor and there is flaw in it. If I tell you that medical malpractice is the third cause of death in America after heart disease and cancer with 371,000 deaths per year and 424,000 permanent disabilities and over 10,000 claims per year in America, would you say we shouldn't see a doctor?

Exactly. We haven't been able to do that yet. And I'm proud of our police department because when there was a flaw, it was our police chief, Tim Simmons, who came to us and said, hey, there is a flaw. We need to stop flaw cameras. And we did it. So we do have trust in our local law enforcement. That's something for the city of Richmond to be proud of. However, the technology, the way Axon is presenting to us or Flock presented to us does not work. I totally agree with you. And I've been in China, where if you leave your laptop, it won't be stolen, because at any point, there are at least 26 ca

That's my proposal Your your time was up quite a while ago. So Councilmember Jimenez.

Yeah. Thank you for the presentation. I Think also we need the data about if the investment that we are putting it is actually resolving in what we want to invest, if this is helping us to resolve the crimes that we need or stopping crimes. So you talk about some FOIA information. Is that FOIA for the city of Richmond data?

Yeah, could you share that a little bit? Yeah. Because I was just, I am, one of the things that I am concerned is how many times our data was shared by outside agencies. And yeah, there is technology that we have, but like we are in this council going to be making decisions about whether we have more technology that can be accessed to, from other agencies in this time where our communities are being hunted by ICE. if that make it easier for them to have all this information. So can you speak more about what you find and what is the next thing that your organization is going to do with that dat

So my last question is, I just wanted, so one of the questions is about whether we will have the capacity to prevent the search from outside and all of the things that we are, worry about and you mentioned that it's not possible is that the correct thing like I understand you well in that regard so I think that what Councilman Havana said about

No. And can you say that it's for eight years the same thing that happened to FLAC. that Exxon will like is the same or because we are trying to decide like flat cameras. We know that that company lied to us and there is a lot of things that we are worried about and now we are in a decision where we are going to change to Exxon. And are you saying that this is the same system just with different name?

Thank you so much. And I love how highly emotional you are with this topic because it gives me certainty that you are really passionate about that and that you are really looking into this with all the objectivity that is needed. Thank you.

Are there any Councilmembers online who would like to speak?

Ms. Hebbing, thank you so much for the presentation. One, you scared a little bit, but I think it's good information. So quick question, and I know this was focused on Flock, and this is the current company we have, and potentially it's the company that we have for the next two and a half-ish months or so. Do you have any data on Axion?

So similar. So you're comparing it against Flock, right? And Flock, it's the big name out there. Everyone knows. And I think there's a lot more information on them. So I'm just trying to figure out. So would Axion have similar issues as Flock would? And I know that you're saying in terms of the contracts, but I'm talking about more in regards to the like my understanding from them is that they it's a closed system it's ours they don't have access to it it's it would be on their on networks I think we're going to be storing it on Amazon I think right and it's it's network that we use for a lot

Slide 12 says can you get out cleanly can vendor terms can claim a perpetual right to use the city data? My understanding is that if we ever terminate or first up if we ever start with them and then if we ever terminate with them that the data is ours. They don't hold on to it. They don't access it. It's ours. So again, I'm trying to look at some to see because all this information here is it's on it's on flock, but it appears that we're no longer going to be contracting with that, right? So we're pivoting. So now as we're pivoting, and I think this is a question that some of my other colleagu

Thank you for that. Trying to read my own writing here. Can you define a little bit between accessible versus accessed? And we went in council maybe about a year ago, we went over this with our previous chief. So, because the numbers that you were giving are really scary, right? You were saying thousands of searches for Richmond. One is being accessible, but two is being actually accessed because someone looked and Richmond appear in some list doesn't mean they actually looked at our data. And I don't know if the chief is around, but maybe the chief can help answer that as well. If he may know

If I might, we have the chief of police available. He might want to answer council members' question.

Chief, while you're there, if I may, so there was a reference that there was searches past 30 days. And now I think that we want to distinct as well that there's before you turned off the cameras and then after, and then you make changes to the way that the flock was accessed. So currently, are people able to search past 30 days?

Chief, just to confirm, when did that, was that a new? or was that since the beginning, or when did that change?

Thank you. Mr. Hamid, I believe you had referenced that someone has searched our data for past 30 days.

Thank you. Thank you. Want to learn a little bit more about to see if there's a great data in here. I want to learn a little more. I know we focus on potential data breaches, all the searches and stuff. Do you happen to have any data on, and this was actually some of the direction council gave last meeting. Do you have any data on how some of the ALPRs are helping some communities potentially? pros and cons, right? Any data on how many illegal dumpings they've caught, how many murders they've been able to catch, how many kidnappers they've been able to catch? When our system went down, there w

Thank you. Thank you. I don't know if the chief is still there. Council Member Cepeda, your time is up.

Thank you. Thank you. Could we hear from the chief still? I don't know if he's still there. Okay. Okay.

Chief, but the question was more on . I'm sorry, your time is up. So, Councilmember Brown? Councilmember Brown?

Yes, thank you so much for the presentation. So a lot of the questions that I have have gone forth already, but I did have one question regarding the judgment on yesterday with the San Jose Flock Network, the lawsuit that your organization along with another, organization brought forth and since you're appearing here today in Richmond, I just want to ask, and you're talking about the effectiveness and limitations and impact. Can you explain that ruling and what the court rejected about that argument?

Right. So, of course, you have the rights for appeals and all of those things. But as it stands, it said that it wasn't a violation of folks' privacy. And so it's just that, just perpetuating the narrative this evening that folks' privacy is being violated on just like a number of levels. And then we have this ruling that you all were a part of yesterday. that said otherwise than what you're presenting this evening. So I just wanted to highlight that and to bring forward to let the community know that there is a ruling that has been made that, I see all these signs in the audience about survei

Yeah. Well, thank you. It's just one of those things where Richmond has, or our police chief in general, has made such great efforts to protect the safety of our residents and the integrity of our residents. And so it's just listening to everything that's gone forth. It happened in other communities. And I'm just wanting to highlight what's going on in Richmond specifically and the safeguards that we can begin to implement to strengthen our to strengthen our systems here as we move forward to potentially inheriting Axon. Thank you.

Do we have other? Oh, I'm sorry. Vice Mayor Robinson.

And I'm also on the queue, Mayor. What's up?

Yes. But I didn't see you until after I saw Vice Mayor. So Vice Mayor will go and then you can go.

Thank you. Okay. So thank you. This is a lot of information. And one of the things that I wonder about is investigation, it seems to me that investigation in general, by police has the potential of violating privacy, right? Is that, am I incorrect by saying that? There's always.

Yeah, so there's always a possibility that a police officer may violate the rights or privacy of individuals in the course of an investigation if they don't follow the rules, if they don't do things, right? I mean, this is something that could happen.

Right. I mean, I understand what you're saying. I guess what I'm saying is that, like, I have a question in my mind when it comes to the use of tools, whether it's the tool's fault or it's the individual who uses the tool's fault. And it's hard because I can go both ways, right? I think of restricting guns and gun access. I like restricting guns. But at the same time, I wouldn't I go back to the use of DNA evidence and how that was seen as a violation of privacy when it first was started. So I guess my question is, and this is where I might just stop, how is using something like an older syste

So would the application of facial recognition readers to CCTV then change what you... change the data set, the slimness of the data set of CCTV if somebody was to use that kind of technology on that. Is that what you're trying to get at? Is that, I'm just trying to understand when a tool is evil as opposed to the person who's misusing it.

I don't want to interrupt you, but I also want to ask just two more questions before we finish. One of them is you said that in that kind of stack of technologies, ring cameras were a part of them. I guess I'm also struggling to understand, you know, if ring cameras are a part of that, that information is accessible, police officers use that information on a regular basis. How does that fit into this? I was interviewed today by a guy wearing sunglasses, and I thought they were just sunglasses. They turned out to be Google glasses, and he was filming me the whole time. I had no idea. Is that a

Before you answer, I would like to say in the newspaper today there was an article about Norway putting a ban on smart glasses. Norway.

Thank you. Do you have more questions? No?

I do. May I point of order? I have a limit of five minutes and I have a very important question. You said I don't have time. But the presenter has unlimited time and keeps repeating herself. Can we have a limit on that? I mean, we need concise answers. Thank you.

We need concise answers. We need concise questions. People seem to fail. at both ends. So if I hold one presenter to five minutes, I need to hold all presenters to five minutes.

This presenter is not technical. She's an activist.

Hello. Thank you. So thank you for the presentation. Some of my questions are actually pretty simple. I mean, if you will, Sarah, I'm going to try to sort of bottom line some of these things and make a couple of statements and see if I'm drawing the right conclusions, in your opinion, from some of the data and information that we shared tonight. And one of the things I've been thinking about too is, you know, is there something unique about ALPR cameras or are they just another tool of policing and can be used for good and be used for bad and we're focusing maybe too much attention on it. But

OK, and so it is. It is a little different than some other policing tool, so I don't have to say it is evil, but I'm going to definitely say it is different and unusual in American society. And the other thing I wanted to ask about is you did these numbers so fast, but you know, I think you are a technical presenter in every sense of the word, and I really apologize for the comment that Councilmember Bonner said that you're not. Some of the technical information you gave us is the during the two times that the Richmond. Flock data was accessible to agencies outside of Richmond without anybody

Okay, so I just want to say there is no reason to feel calm about those two data breaches. They quite possibly could have sent somebody to an ICE facility to some other messed up thing without us. We will never know. Or certainly, I don't know who has the, I don't think anybody has the ability to audit 1.5 million of those, or maybe someone does. The next thing I wanted to check in, and again, this is my point of like these systems are really dangerous. And nobody, I'm not trying to like, anyways, these systems are really dangerous. And I don't think there's a way to make them safe. Third thin

That was five minutes of me speaking. Yes okay I enjoyed it so much okay but here's my question is there anything that would stop a future city council which had different politics and they do change over every once in a while or a future a police department that that city council protects if we built a system it's is it easy for them to just say we're going to network it you know like if we build the tool can we currently the current users of it control the future use of it

So I say don't trust the government. There we go.

Thank you. All right. So people with time are Councilmember Jimenez, Councilmember Brown, and Vice Mayor Robinson. Do any of you have comments to end with? Okay. All right. Well then, thank you so much for the presentation. And we will now move on to our next item.

Actually, to save us from questions of process, city clerk, would you remind everyone of where we ended at the last session?

Before we continue with the next speaker, we need to extend our meeting time.

I move that we extend until 11. I second.

So before we vote, I want to remind everyone that this is our second evening listening to this item. And I would hope that within the time that we have left, we can complete the item so that we know where we stand and we can move on to other things. So let's take a vote.

Until 11, I hope we can do this item and an additional item. Okay.

Okay. Thank you. So it is now time for comments and questions from the council. Council member Bonner.

First of all, I wanted to thank the chief and also captain stonebreaker. You were great in answering the questions that my constituents brought up quickly, very comprehensively and I shared them with the larger community. So I really appreciate that. So I wanted to ask you, first of all, I think because we're supposed to have like 180 to 200 police officers and we have less than 150, I think we should provide the tools that you're asking for. But I don't believe in trust, trusting anyone, either, you know, Axon, any company, or how things are done. A couple of People have asked me that they lo

Sure. In summary, I just want to mention that there's a sign over there that if you cannot protect it, don't collect it. I agree with that. And we want to make sure we can do that. How do we go about it? Sure.

I understand, but I'm not a data scientist. Neither are you. So I'm not sure how good that contract is. Having a couple of people from nonprofits who work in the field taking a look at it gives me peace of mind. Is that doable? I mean, it's negotiation. Can we have it? I mean, they don't have to approve it, but if they have suggestions to improve it, I'd like them to be incorporated.

Well, they need to see the contract to make suggestions.

Not a part of contract negotiations. can they see the contract to make suggestions for the improvement?

I understand, but is it classified information, that draft contract?

Yeah, that's a little too late. I'll ask him to. Before it's adopted. Oh, before it's adopted?

Mark, you need to turn your mic on, please.

That would be awesome. So once the negotiation is done, the contract is final, you can share it with the public, and they provide feedback afterwards.

EXCELLENT. So let's do that. So can we tonight approve like the drone portion and all other portions but have the contract for ALPR come back to the council? Yes. Okay. Can I make that motion?

We're still in conversations, but when we get to that.

Well, we only need the ALPR portion to come, or is it all together?

There's a variety of ways that we can handle this.

Right. Yeah. And to be frank, I was actually thinking of dividing it so that we could, you know, at least get part of the cake. Sure. Yep. If not all of it or none of it. But Vice Mayor, we can come back to you.

I know that. But right now we're in discussion. So it's vice mayor Robinson. HI.

It's a long night. Yeah, it's a really long night. I wanted to say thank you, chief Simmons. I think that what you did was all of our concerns that we expressed when it came to flock cameras and found an alternative solution. It may not please everyone because of much larger concerns about surveillance in our society and where our society is going. where technology is going. But you definitely followed through on the things that we asked you to do and I appreciate that. And I appreciate the time and effort and energy it takes to do that. I had a couple of just questions because I wanted to mak

Thirteen. How many more? And those detectives work on what? How is their time divided?

So one of the things that I really struggle with when it comes to this question is not so much whether or not the cameras prevent crime. So I'm not convinced of that. But whether or not they help solve crimes. Yeah. And that comes to mind because I imagine that vehicle thefts would be handled by the four officers that are assigned to the felony union, is that correct?

For all of that whole category of crimes?

Where in from April to June in my district alone, just D3, There were 90 cars stolen. Yeah. And that doesn't include the 13 burglaries, the 94 thefts, the seven arsons, the one homicide, the 38 aggravated assaults, the 18 robberies, and the 12 sexual assaults, all just in my district from April through July. That's correct. This 13 people are all we have to investigate not just my district, but all six districts. Mine has the most crime. but all six districts, these 13 people. That's correct. Well, 12, because one is out.

So I have this concern that we're not addressing and quite frankly, just not giving a damn about the people who, there's people behind every one of those 12 people who were actually sexually assaulted. That was their bodies. And they are suffering in a state where they don't feel safe walking around. And whether or not their perpetrator was caught is most likely, you know? And these were just this one little window of time. I think you said to me once the number of backlog cases.

Yeah, and maybe I want to make that case too. I'm not so naive to think that just having a camera is going to solve all of these cases.

In fact, one of the things that I kind of wanted to get at tonight is that I actually would love to understand the data. I feel like... it is a really important thing to do, is to look at our data, what's another agenda item tonight, so I'm not going to totally discuss it, and actually Understand what has been happening with our with the window of use that we've had I think that's an important piece of the puzzle some of you may know I did put together a very unscientific study our survey But at least it was some way for me to hear back from my constituents and I feel like I also would like an

I think the... Vice Mayor, you have 12 seconds left.

So I personally think that there's enough concern in the room for us to take the time to actually look at the data to make an informed decision. And I would like to move forward with what we can.

Thank you. Thank you. Council Member Brown?

So I'm just going to ask Mike. just two questions I just want clarification on because I just I'm sitting here and it's almost 11 o'clock and I'm like what was today for if we just went through all of this from different organizations to like I thought the mayor suggested that we were going to land somewhere but I guess If we break it up into all of these different parts and just only eat the parts that are favorable to some and then just leave the other parts alone, I guess that'll work. But my question was if we, if there's, if one drone covers 60 to 70% of the city, why is it necessary to g

Okay, so there's just different types for different situations. Correct, yeah. Okay, thank you. And we currently, I saw on one of the slides there were like 110 license plate readers, and I'm hearing a lot that we're just going to have like this massive influx of... license plate readers all throughout the city. How many do we currently have now and how many will we have if we were to switch over to Axon?

Okay. There was one other question that I have regarding like the cameras following people.

Okay. And lastly, I just want to ask because I noticed that many of folks that have spoken this evening talked about like patterns that are created to follow folks or things like that. Would you suggest that the purge of the systems every 30 days sort of excludes like any type of established patterns for vehicles?

I did say lastly, but this is the last one. So as far as someone being able to access our data, I mean, like I think throughout, like you mentioned, throughout different professions, fields, like there's no guarantee that... some things like 100% proof. And so what I'm asking is that in order, in our situation, in order for someone to request access or gain access to our data would have to come through a judge like authorizing a subpoena?

Yeah. And what about your audit system to ensure that the checks and balances are there? What about the, how often is that conducted? Monthly.

Okay. Thank you. And I do want to ask too, Mayor, look, Vice Mayor Robinson mentioned that she needed some more, I guess, some comparisons of the data. And I thought, you know, from the first last week or the last council meeting we heard, plus this council meeting, and I'm trying to establish, like, what is, like, why are we keep putting it off? Like, what are we trying to reach, like, as far as, like, the information, just so I'm clear?

There's an actual contract that we are considering tonight to actually, we approved it, yes, on consent calendar. And so they need time to actually get that. We didn't approve it.

So there's a non-poll, but we're considering it tonight, and that would actually have this independent group that already works with our police department would pull together and actually assess the data on the use of these cameras and the periods that we've used them. So I would like to see that before we make this decision.

Well, so what I would like to do, because we only have 24 minutes left, and in those 24 minutes I would like to get a vote on part of this. And so.

I would like to make a motion. No, we're not done with debate yet.

We're not done with comments yet. I know, but we can continue debate after we make the motion.

Thank you. So I'm making a motion that we approve.

It will be focused on the actual motion and not on the item. So I still want to speak to the whole item.

Well, my motion is to approve both contracts except for the ALPR portion and bring that contract back to the city council to be approved. Only the portion related to ALPR.

Thank you. I'll make an alternate motion. My alternate motion is to approve everything as it is. and having us opportunity because my understanding is that we need about 60 plus days for the contracting to go through. So if we don't vote for them to look at the Exxon contract, then we're not going to have enough time before January. So my motion is to approve everything as is. but making sure that we have a way out after that report comes back to us. So if the report comes back to us mid November and we don't like what we find, then that we then get out because we're not signing the contract u

It's okay to go without cameras for a couple of weeks.

Excuse. So we have alternate motion. We need a second. I second. Okay.

I'm sorry, can we ask the city attorney if that's possible?

Yeah, so I made up the November date because I wasn't able to ask more questions. So I'm assuming that the report that we asked for will be coming to us sometime in November because we're not even going to be able to vote on that item. So I'm assuming it's going to move to October. By that time, we're probably not going to get the report until sometime in November. What I'm getting at is that we start moving forward with doing the contract amendments because that's going to take about 60 days. And then by November... Once we get the report, then there we can say, okay, we don't want to continu

So what you've said is not what we have as is. You are changing.

Yeah, so moving with just about everything as is, what the only difference is that they bring the final contract amendment for a final approval after the data, but they continue moving it forward but not finalizing it until we get the data.

That's also California law that we can I believe that would apply to the government as well, that we can come out of it. But again, the intent is to move it and moving it forward so that they. The legal team, the financial team, everyone can kind of look at everything, bringing it back to us more finalized versus starting it back up, which I believe is what Hanselman-Rubano's original motion was, was to not look at that contract.

Can I ask a clarifying question about the motion?

Yeah. So I guess I'm wondering, Council Manager Zepeda, are you asking us to approve it to move forward or approve the contract? Because I wonder if there's a difference between doing some work to tee up a contract, but we're not saying, yes, we're going to enter into that contract, as opposed to saying, yes, we're going to enter into this contract, move forward, sign, sign, and then we'll use that clause to get out of it.

I would be more comfortable to do work to tee something up but not say yes we're going to sign it until we get the data back and I'm wondering what your the intent of your motion was just what you mentioned so the intent is to kind of tee it up because it might take us 60 days to get it rolling so we tee it up and then once it's more complete with everything that we're asking for then it comes back to us maybe the same day that we will get the report and then at that time we can say based on the report we're not going to move forward with it or based on the report we do move forward with it bu

I'm sorry, we need to go through the chair. There's everyone talking out. Through the chair. And so through the chair, we only, now we have 15, almost 15 minutes. This is why I wanted to make the motion so that we could at least get something voted on. And hopefully we can still do it in the 15, 17 minutes that we have. Wilson has not spoken yet. Go ahead.

I wanted to speak to the item. And also, I don't get the difference between, it sounds like that Zepeda's replacement motion is just approving the motion as is. I'm not comfortable with all this teeing up and stuff. It's like you either approve a contract or you don't. And so I think we should vote, I think we should break it up. And if we don't approve the ALPR contract tonight, we could come back and approve it in three weeks if people get the answers to the questions they want.

So then I will make another motion. Well, wait a minute. Sahela's motion actually broke them up into two.

Well, we need to take a vote. The motion on the floor is still mine. Yeah.

I have a second from Council Member Brown.

Would he be willing to break it apart? The intent is to prove the Verkada one and the others, and then for the Exxon one to continue to start working on, as the city attorney mentioned, start working on the amendment with all the pieces that we're going to need. Because we can't start later on. So we should be starting that now, hopefully by tomorrow, and be ready to have something to come back to us to do the final, final.

You continually change your motion. At first it was as is. And then it was the whole thing together with a slow start on the axion. And now it's, you know.

No, it's been the same. I'm just trying to clarify to make sure that people understand what I was saying. Because what I understand. Well, it's hard to understand what you're saying when you keep changing it.

I'm waiting for the chair to say if I can. Okay, so my replacement motion is that you take the recommended action as written. So if everyone can pull that up, delete the line and to add license plate reader and surveillance equipment, We can come back to that in a second. I just would like to get something done tonight. Let's get the rest of the stuff approved.

And then just also, maybe we have to do some kind of gentle person's agreement of this. I don't think we should actually increase the contract by $3,500,000 tonight. Sorry, $3,500,000, because I think that's also for the ALPR technology. So if there's some magical way of saying... we're approving whatever increase is attached to these other technologies which we are just ready to approve because I don't want to mess up the rest of the stuff. Is there a second?

Second. I'm confused. It's the same as my motion. How is it different from mine?

I don't know. Well, yours is to vote for the axon separately from the .

No, I said my motion was to approve everything on item 01 except for add license plate reader and surveillance equipment.

Same thing, sorry. I apologize, Sohaila. I thought you wanted to do sort of the teeing up stuff, and that makes me real nervous. I just want to make it clear that, like, let's do a separate motion for that.

I insisted on bringing that contract for approval for the ALPR.

So can legal read back the two motions that we have?

I agree. So. We first have to take a vote on Cepeda's motion because.

No, I think mine was the last one was I replaced his replacement.

But your replacement was the same as mine.

Oh, sorry. You're right. My apologies. Thank you.

He said everything. No, this is. For everything.

I know. It's, yeah. Otherwise nothing gets said.

My motion is to approve item 01, both parts, except for the part that says add license plate reader and surveillance equipment. And the city attorney is going to bring the contract related to that portion to the city council to be approved.

And also, we need to change the contract amount. Yeah. Right. So, and we can say up to a particular number.

Can I ask a question? Yes. So are we excluding the requested six drones? So that's the surveillance equipment, I believe.

I'm only excluding ALPR, automatic license plate reader cameras.

Exclude ALPR and adjust the price accordingly. Right.

What do you mean by bring back a contract? Like, I don't understand what you mean, like, bring back a contract with ALPR.

The contract regarding ALPR, I explained that there are nonprofits who are not happy with AI and license plate readers, want to go over the contract that the city has with Axon to make sure that it's very tight, the data won't be shared, and will be secured. That's important. So we would like to optimize that contract as much as possible.

When are we looking back, Council Member Bonner?

When are you looking to bring back the ALPR piece of the contract?

When is it going to come back? October 20th?

Can we approve it quickly and then approve the other item too?

I think we'll still have time to approve the item.

Let's approve it and then go to the other item and approve it quickly.

OK. So it's not going to be possible to hear the other item tonight because we need to hear public comment. And it's just not going to be possible.

OK, let's make it for the meeting after the 20th.

OK. And I just asked if I can make a friendly amendment. It's going to take, I just want to know if we can add a date to this as well, because just bringing back stuff, that could be pushed off from one, two, three, four meetings, and then we'll be in this blackout state.

It will be on October 27th that we present the data and go over the contract related to ALPR. Is that doable?

Can we break it up into two motions and approve this by taking out and to add license plate reader and then change the total amount and then authorize the city attorney's office to negotiate and finalize. We change finalize so that the contract comes back to us so that we can give it the final blessing.

Well, I was trying to clarify bonna's motion.

Yes. Sorry, I don't understand the motion. Point of order. What's the motion?

The motion is to approve everything on item 01 except for ALPR portion and adjust the contract amount accordingly. The contract for ALPR will come back to the city. to get public input to make sure.

That's true, but that means we're approving the contract. All contracts come back to us.

We're approving the contract excluding the license plate reader.

We approve everything excluding ALPR. But then your office.

I think that the police department, I think the police department is capable of, writing a new council item to bring forth for us to reconsider because we have six minutes now.

We can take a vote. Sue, my motion is the same as yours.

It is not. My motion was not to approve the ALPR. You're sending the city attorney to start the ALPR contract, and I don't want to do that because we haven't seen the data yet. And I actually, I haven't been able to speak to the item. You know, like I didn't get to speak tonight.

You don't have to approve it when the contract comes. That's always the case. The motion is for the city attorney to negotiate but not finalize the contract. Nothing's finalized. Let's take a vote on it.

All right. Well, we have five minutes, not enough time to do anything else except...

We appreciate that. And I'm... She is horrible. Yeah, that's... Okay, so we are now adjourned.