Housing and Land Use Committee (2025-2027) - Regular Meeting

Will the Disaster Recovery International Affairs and Planning Committee of September 28th come to order? The time is now 9.02. And if everyone can please silence their cell phones or other noise-making devices, that will help our cause. Members, in accordance with the Sunshine Law, if you are not in the Council Chambers, please identify by name who, if anyone, is in the room, vehicle, or workspace with you today. Minors do not need to be identified. Also, please see the last page of the agenda for information on meeting connectivity. My name is Tamara Paulton, and I'll be your DRIP Chair for t

Thank you. We also have Committee Vice Chair Nohe Uuhajins. Aloha kakahiaka and Sabadee.

Aloha, Chair. Aloha, everyone. I'm at my private residence alone.

Thank you. We also have Council Member Tom Cook. Aloha, Kaka'iaka and Sabadee.

And we also have Council Member Gabe Johnson. Aloha, Kaka'iaka and Sabadee.

Aloha Sabadee, council member, community members, chair. There's no testifiers at the Lanai'i District Office. I'm alone in the office with the snoring doggy, Hokuchan Johnson.

Thank you. We also have council chair Alice Lee Sabadee and Aloha Kokaiaka.

Thank you. We also have Council Member Kiani Rollins-Fernandez. Aloha kakaiyaka and Sabadee.

Aloha kakaiyaka, Chair. Aloha kakaiyaka kakou. I'm at my private residence alone. There are no testifiers at the Munkah District Office. Mahalo, Chair.

Thank you. And we also have Council Member Shane Sinensi. Aloha kakāyaka and sabadī.

Aloha kakāyaka, Chair, and sabadī here at my private residence. Currently here by myself. There's no testifiers in. Chair, my apologies. I have to probably jump off about 11 for an appointment.

Oh, okay. Thank you for letting us know. Last but not least, Council Member Yukile Sugimura is excused again. This meeting of the Disaster Recovery International Affairs and Planning Committee of the Maui County Council is located on the traditional aina of the Kanaka'o'iwi who never ceded their sovereignty to the United States. We recognize that Her Majesty Queen Liliuokalani yielded the Hawaiian kingdom to the U.S. in duress under threat of violence to avoid the bloodshed of her people. We further recognize that Hawaii remains an illegally occupied nation state by the U.S., as documented in

Thank you, Chair. Sorry, but I had an important question for you. Is today your birthday? Mm-hmm. Happy birthday. Thank you. Happy birthday. Thank you.

Okay, now we will move on to public testimony for DRIP 25. Written testimony is encouraged and can be submitted via the e-comment link at maui-county.us backslash agendas. Testifiers wanting to provide oral testimony should join the online meeting via the Microsoft Teams link printed on today's agenda or call into the phone number which is also on today's agenda. For individuals wishing to testify via Teams, please raise your hand by clicking on the raise your hand button near the top right of your screen. For those calling in, please follow the prompts via phone. Staff will add names to the t

Thank you. And just for your information, I believe we'll be adjourning today. And then there's a council meeting, or not for you, but for everybody. There'll be a council meeting tomorrow that had to get postponed from Friday because of the NOLO. Then Thursday will be on Kaho'olawe and we'll return to a recess from Wednesday on Friday afternoon. It's kind of a lot of accommodations going on. So there will be another opportunity to testify on Wednesday. We'll work all day Wednesday and pick up Friday afternoon, but a recessed meeting, so no testimony on Friday. Okay.

Thank you. Member Cook looks like he has a question.

I did. So Wailea Community Association, is that like the umbrella group for Wailea?

So you said landscaping, the various things. What kind of a budget does WCA have? And what encompasses what do you take care of?

Thank you for your testimony. Appreciate it. And thanks for listening along. Like you said, you've been following these meetings. There have been some really long meetings. You mentioned in your testimony that it meets the WCA plan and the Wailea Gulf plan. Does it meet any of the plans of the South or the goals of the South Maui plan, such as like Section 2? Have you been looking at that section while you work when you're proposals for your amended map?

Okay, I'm glad that that was part of your consideration is where I'm going with that. So thank you for that response. And thank you, Chair.

Thank you. And I just had one clarifying question. You said that you had been working with Wailiagal for the landowner of that. And did you also share with them the revised maps and stuff that you shared with us?

And then just to clarify, I think we've had some testimony as well that the maps in the booklet had been revised. Is this the revision that didn't make it into the booklet that people are testifying about?

Okay, but this isn't what's in the book.

Okay, thank you. Any further questions for the testifier? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.

Thank you, members. Any questions for the testifier? I had one question. The Workforce Housing-led Corps that you're speaking of, that's already going forward? It's already going forward.

Oh, sorry. Member Johnson has a question for you. Was it Mr. Bishop?

Yes. Sorry about that, Mr. Bishop. Just a real quick question to clarify your testimony. You said you worked with the developer before on some of the concerns on the workforce housing. Yes. What were some of the concerns that you had?

They bury the power lines over there for the view as well?

Thank you. I do think viewplanes are a thing in the general plan or the Maui Island plan, so that's good that they complied with those aspects of the general plan. Go ahead, Mr. Ramirez.

Mr Carlson. So the original plan was eliminate all the golf courses.

Okay. Are there championships held over there?

Thanks. Thanks for breaking it down for me.

Members, any clarifying questions for the testifier? Seeing none, I had a couple. There have been a lot of talks about like another North Kihei bypass, was that something that the landowners were willing to donate an easement for a North Kihei bypass or something along those lines?

And then I was wondering also in that you said you are representing Haleakalā and Kaʻonoʻulu ranches. If you have sent in documentation to this committee about efforts to reduce like sedimentation and like the mud floods that we kind of saw from the slideshow presented from Mr. Kalanikau, I understand that some work is being done. Have you sent to this committee documentation of the efforts to date?

Yeah. I think that would be helpful for us in our deliberations of the South Maui Community Plan to at least see what has been done, what could be done, what is planned to be done, and like that especially seems like we dodged a bullet this past weekend. So if there are things that you've tried that have worked, things that you've tried that haven't worked, and things that you have in the plans, I think it would be beneficial for the committee to at least see what is going on. Mauka, even though it's not a part of this community plan, it is affecting this community plan area.

Thank you. I believe Mr. Cook also has a clarifying question for you.

Thank you, Mr. Brampton. My clarifying question is links basically what chair just asked. Um, my committee, we have at the opportunity and the ranches, Malama hall collage gave presentation at our town hall. But if you could, uh, could share, the flood mitigation Malka of the development that they're proposing would be beneficial because the community needs to see and understand what's being done, what needs to be done, and what they're willing to do because the Malka properties really are the ones that can mitigate the volume of the flooding and capture the sediment. Once it gets down in the

Thank you, any further clarifying questions, further testifiers? Seeing none, thank you so much for your testimony.

Thank you. Members, any clarifying questions for the testifier? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.

Thank you. Members, any clarifying questions for the testifier? Thank you for your testimony.

Thank you. Members, any questions for the testifier? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.

Thank you. Members, any questions for the testifier? Seeing none, I had a couple. What was the section in the plan that you were referencing, 2.80B point what?

Okay. And then... I think that was the main question then. Thank you.

Thank you. Members, any clarifying questions for the testifier? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony.

Thank you. Members, any clarifying questions for the testifier? Seeing none, thank you for your testimony, Mr. Ramirez.

We're continuing on with Goal 2.4 and 2.5 in Section 4. as our resources are available. Mr. Ramirez? Nobody had any clarifying questions, right, for the testifier? I've seen none. Thank you for your testimony.

Thank you. Members, any objection to closing oral testimony, accepting written testimony into the record and leaving written testimony open? Seen none, so ordered. So I believe we have Director Molina as well as Noah Jackson from the Managing Director's Office with us online at this time. We can go back over any items that were outstanding maybe with DPW since we have Director Molina at this time, just do a quick check in with him. And then move on from there. Does that sound good? Or did you want to continue sequential? Okay. Director Molina? Oh, I see three dots next to me. Does that mean he

Oh, there he is. Hey there. Hi, good morning. How's it going? Good morning. Glad we made it through the weekend. I just wanted to check in with you on any of our revisits, if any progress has been made. We can start from the beginning or we can start from Section 4. Or you can just let us know if any progress has been made on the revisits for Public Works.

We can do it orally now or you can do it in writing, whichever is easier for you.

Okay. All right. Sounds good. Let's see. I think... 428, 429, okay, so we left off on 4.29 with you. I think we went through everything then, so we'll just wait for the in writing then. Shall we just go over that you have the same revisits that we have so that we know what to expect in writing? Or has staff sent that to you? Not yet. Okay. We have action 1.03 on page 114. Yeah, I got that one. Actions 4.03 A and B on pages 134 and 135.

And 4.28 and 4.29. Okay, I missed those.

And then I think the the Gulch policies too. Did you have those? Yes. Okay. All right. We'll wait to hear from you in writing on those then.

Thank you so much. Okay. So I guess in that case, we can continue on. We left off on 4.17, page 138, which corresponds to page 61 of attachment 3C. And this looks like a CPAC original. about doing preservation at haycraft park and ma alaya bay beach and then um as we've seen in the past the planning commission split it up into two goals would develop as step a and implement as step b um I guess let's, shall we hear from Mr. Weltman first? Is this, you know, we know that area currently is a lot of short-term rental condos. Was the idea to have a sort of kind of Bob and Liz Richardson type worki

So we haven't identified anyone that wanted to do the work yet. We're going to the intent was to develop a plan and then solicit workers or something along those lines?

Okay, thank you. From the planning department, is this a project that you had intended to further on even without this school or something that you're working on or something that you're willing to lead? Because you're the lead agency. This is a plan type with high priority, short timing. Planning department is the lead agency and 250,000 of county source funding.

Oh, it is an existing project that they're developing a sand dune preservation, a plan for sand dune preservation at Haycraft, Ma'alaia Bay Beach.

Okay. And I'm familiar with Haycraft Park. I'm not sure. It seems as though Ma'alaya Bay Beach is a separate location.

So it's, Haycraft Park is the county jurisdiction park, and then if you expand out from that, that's the entirety of the bay? Yes. Okay, got it, got it. Members, any questions or discussion? I don't have a problem with this. If the planning department is willing to be the lead agency and they know the players, I have no recommendation for amendment. We can move on. Okay, so no problem, 417A and 417B. Moving on to 4.18. Thank you Mr. Ramirez. So this started out as a planning department action item. numbered 4.10 and evolved from continue to expand funding for additional dune management coordin

If the department is not hiring any new staff, would the funding could be used to go out for nonprofits who want to submit, you know, something like Mr. Nemet's program that does do some management with their nonprofit?

Deputy, would you be open to adding OED as the county-led agency?

Thank you. Would you also like to hear from Mr. Weltman if he had been aware that the dune management coordinator position wasn't directly under the county and if that had been their intention or those things?

Mr. Weltman, were you aware that it was like a partnership with Sea Grant that the dune management coordinator position is currently under?

And are you continuing to lobby UHC grant to expand positions with the expanded funding from Maui County?

Okay. And for planning, you don't have a problem with the language as written?

I did wanna clarify on your response. It says expand funding for additional dune management coordinator positions for the Island of Maui. Would it then be and or program funding for South Maui as this is the South Maui Community Plan?

So was it and or related programs for South Maui?

Sorry, can you repeat that a little slower and louder?

In South Maui. Was it and, or, or, or? or just like that, and fund implementation of strategies for sand dune protection in South Maui. Just and. Okay. And that loosens it how you said, Deputy Lillis. You can also just take out the For the Island of Maui. Oh, okay. Expand funding for additional dune management coordinator positions. and fund the implementation of strategies or programs for sand dune management in South Maui. Strategies or programs. Okay. Mr. Weltman, is that true enough to the original?

Okay. Mr cook. Thank you chair. My questions for planning. How does, um, so the interface between the county of Maui and deal and are. On the shoreline, so this strikes me as and the funding county and state, it strikes me that this is a difficult thing for this county to do. So I'm asking what, if any, collaboration there is with the state currently and what could be proposed as part of this plan to bring that together so that the both sides are working on the same page.

So further clarification. So besides the funding aspect, my main point of the question was the management and implementation collaboration to actually do the dune management, restoration, et cetera, that aspect of it.

So, Chair, I just proposed that we can add to lead agencies, whoever that may be, as far as for the state aspect of it. It sounds like the planning department isn't

The column refers to county lead agencies, so we haven't been putting outside agencies from the county. Is that purposeful?

Hey, thanks. I just, it seems beyond the planning department's capacity to actually do all of this. So that's just, I understand it and they're working on it, you're aware. So I'm just trying to help you out because it seems like saddling the planning department with some of these requirements that you need to work with other people. You're already doing it. I feel my answer is questioned. Thank you very much. My answer is question. My question is answered.

Thank you. I guess just one last question for an attorney, whether it's corporation counsel or our legislative attorney. The word expand funding for additional doom management, you have no problem with that because it's an ongoing issue. Timing or do we need to like, great seek funding or we're good with expand just double checking. Mr. or or Mr. Hopper.

I'm ready to recommend an amendment to action number 4.18 on page 138 to strike the current language and to replace it with seek funding for additional dune management coordinator positions and fund the implementation of strategies or programs for sand dune protection in South Maui. So moved. Moved by Member Johnson, second by Member Sinensi. Excuse me, Chair.

Oh, okay. Adding an additional seek in there by friendly amendment if Member Johnson and Sinensi are okay with it. it would be seek to fund the implementation of strategies or programs for sand dune protection in South Maui. Move on and second they're okay with that friendly amendment. Okay, any further discussion on the amendment for 4.18?

Including the addition of OED. Sorry, Jarrett.

So the county lead is PD, the Planning Department, OED, As well as OEV? I'd like to maybe see if the folks would consider if we could add OEV.

I'm okay with it. I think we don't have Deputy Robinson until 1.30, but any objection to adding OEV resources? Okay.

And seeing that this is environmental, maybe EPNS as well?

Just to add a little information for the members as he jumps on the call, Cody, who does this kind of work, we all know Cody in South Maui. He gets funding from OEB and EPNS to run the wetlands grants. So they're already kind of doing that. Maybe we could just add them to continue. Thank you, Chair.

Okay, I don't have an issue with it. I do know wetlands are, wetland restoration and dune restoration are related but not exactly the same. Any comment from planning about adding OEV resources and DEM, EPNS to the lead agencies with you folks?

Right now, OEB and EPNS run the wetland grants. So those are two that I would kind of defer to, but it's, you know, for discussion. That's what I would say.

Chair, I'm okay with taking OED off, knowing that EPNS has that grant. Thank you.

Okay. Hearing the feedback from our resources members, currently it stands at Planning Department, OEB Resources and EPNS as three county lead agencies. Is that where we want to keep it? Yes. Okay. Any further discussion on it? I think if PD is in there, you just assume yourself as in charge of it. Okay, all right then. Any further discussion? Seeing none, everyone in support, raise your hand and say aye.

Thank you. Okay, moving on to 4.19. This started out as a planning department initiated action item numbered 4.11, 4.11, sorry, and the priority was medium. It changed to include other non-profit rather than solely R2R initiative and No changes. And then at the changes for drafting guidelines, R2R was removed and impacts were replaced by damages. And so it's a program type with high priority, mid timing, and this would be a department of management, would be the lead agency with costs to be determined and funding sources are private. So is Mr. Jackson on the line?

Aloha. Have you looked over 4.19 and 4.2 and feel that is something the Department of Management could be the lead agency on?

Yeah, I see what you're saying. Like, it would be really weird for the county. Hmm.

encourage or support partner with i guess maybe we should go to planning as it started out from them about creating a ridge to reef initiative not so much a non-profit but a reef to ridge to reef initiative. Um, and is it that planning department didn't see that as a nonprofit in terms of initiative? I guess.

And then I guess, was a Ridge to Reef initiative different than a nonprofit or is the Ridge to Reef initiative a nonprofit as well?

Member Cook, was that a new hand up or was it a legacy hand up?

That's a new hand up. Oh, okay. Go ahead. I had a comment about nonprofits. Malama Haleakalā, which is the nonprofit working with the three ranches, and they've been doing, I can't say what their entire mandate is, but basically it's mitigating the damage from the deer, Revegetating the mountain to mitigate the loss of topsoil and getting and keeping the sentiment out of the streams. And also working with so conservation and and other people to. Blood blood mitigation so.

So that's one that kind of exists there. Is that a South Maui Ridge to Reef Initiative, Malama Haleakala?

I think they aren't Ridge to Reef, but I think they work with them. I'm just pointing out that there's that non-profit, I think the Ridge to Reef, there's another non-profit working more along the shoreline. A resource people from the Kihei community could also add. It seems like Encourage, Or coordinate with? Enable. We don't want to make a commitment that we're going to absolutely fund them, but we have been funding them. And we could potentially let them know that there's funding available. So anyway, I think it's super worthy. There again, this is something that the county managing is more

Would Malama Haleakala qualify as a South Maui Ridge to Reef initiative? Because the ridge is not necessarily in South Maui. But the reef is.

I don't think it would be them. Oh, it wouldn't be them. I'm just sharing that there are non-profits and the key, I think, is to put them together. Anyway, I think Mr. Whitman.

Okay. And you're okay with the high priority mid-timing cost to be determined private funding sources? Okay. I'll entertain an amendment for action number 4.19 on page 138 to say support the creation of a South Maui Ridge to Reef Initiative or other similar non-profit to leverage resources across agencies and community groups to reduce land-based pollution that damages coral reefs. So moved. Moved by Member Johnson, second by Member Cook. Any further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor, raise your hand and say aye.

Thank you. Moving on to 4.20. This started out as a planning department action item. Had some... minor changes to add in compliance with the Department of Health Quality Assurance Program Plan to monitor and care for all South Maui nearshore waters. Is this different than Huyo Ka Wai Ola? Because my understanding is that they have developed procedures and they monitor Mearshore Waters?

Okay, so obtain funding and implement program in compliance with... How are you envisioning the care for the waters part to occur?

Um, planning department. So, I mean, I know that Huyo Kabaye Ola developed a QAP with the assistance of, I think, Watson Okubo before he retired and the Department of Health. What was your intention in the care for them part, the monitoring, how would we care for water quality in South Maui near shore waters? Because the monitoring is ongoing.

So the action item that we just adopted was the Ridge to Reef Initiative, and that was a program also. Would that be taking on the care for the water parts? Because, I mean, oftentimes the monitors are not the same group as the care for group.

So it feels as though we don't want to replace who has some years of experience in this area um and i to my understanding in the budget we are supportive of huioka by ola through maui nui marine resource council so we may need to update the language to reflect that because we're not talking about implementing a new program right

Mahalo, Chair. I'm supportive of that language. We're on 4.12, yeah? 4.20. 4.20?

Oh, right. Oh, it started as a planning department action number 4.12 and it turned into a CPAC draft 4.20. Sorry. If you're looking at the matrix.

Yeah, the matrix that is, um. Obtaining funding and implement a program in compliance with Department of Health Quality Assurance Program to monitor and care for all South Maui nearshore waters. Is it that one? That's the one. Okay. Okay. And that was changed from 4.12?

When the department proposed the draft initially, it was numbered 4.12. But then in the CPAC draft, I think because of the separation of create and implement or addition of their own action items, it moved down to action number 4.20.

Okay, and then, so the 4.12, no longer, establish and implement a watershed-wide water quality monitoring program. does not exist. It was changed to 4.20.

Establish and implement a watershed-wide water quality monitoring program to measure the quality of runoff and mass loading of pollutants from major gulch streams and waterways is still an action item. It's very similar.

That's my question. Oh, that was your question?

How is it different? Should it be one? Can we combine them and just make them one? Because they sound like the same thing.

They do sound very similar. Planning, any recommendation for us?

Okay, keeping 4.12 and getting rid of 420. Okay. I'll entertain a motion to amend 420 on page 138 by deleting it. Moved by Member Cook, seconded by Member Sinensi. All those in favor, raise your hand and say aye. And then I guess...

Thank you. I guess, do we want to incorporate the In Compliance with Department of Health Quality Assurance Program Plan here in 412? So it reads, establish and implement a watershed-wide water quality monitoring program. And then we could add in compliance with the Department of Health Quality Assurance Program Plan to monitor and measure the quality of runoff, blah, blah, blah. And then We can add state and county sources. Any objection to that from planning? We don't want any kind of water monitoring program. We want it to be in compliance with the DOH QAPP because then they can use it. Oka

Would you read the first three words to the action item, please?

Okay, so that's not hui o ka wai o la? So we wouldn't say support and continue providing funding for?

I'm not sure. if they do all the major gulches, but we can see continue to support or support, support a watershed wide water quality monitoring program.

Friendly amendment to replace, establish, and implement to continue to support the Watershed Wide Water Quality Monitoring Program.

Oh, so for 4.12, you were expecting somebody to go into the gulches and streams and get the samples? And this isn't when the water is running, is it?

Just asking, though, if the intent is for an individual to go inside the gulch and get the sample. I've like I've gone inside the stream in my former career and it's just not really advisable for a lay person. I mean, because of the danger. But member Cook.

Thank you, Chair. I concur that that's needed. I think public works would be an appropriate one. This is part of the flood mitigation. and they are currently putting in monitors at different streams so that they can see the flow, the rate, trying to do a really detailed analysis of what's coming down from the mountain quantitatively. The sediment load is part of that, and also it would be, Not outside their preview to do some water sampling so we could check with Public Works, but it doesn't strike me as like Way outside what they do their flood flood management because to understand where the

So I was a part of when Hui Oka Wai Ola formed. The main thing that they're testing for is turbidity and some other things. If you're testing for specific pollutants, it a little bit changes things because of the cost, and sometimes you have to send the samples to a different island under refrigerated conditions and things like that. So just seeing that... it would probably be good to identify like you kind of need to have a guess of what types of pollutants that you're going to be testing for in order to run those tests. Um, and then the cost and where does it and all those things. So if we'r

I concur. So it basically be potential fuel, fertilizer, you know, manure type things for whether a deer or cesspools. So it's a handful of things. It would have to be collected and sent off. The county doesn't have the ability to do that, but it is something that is doable. So it doesn't strike me as really on a line or too exotic. You wouldn't be doing it every single rain event, twice a year, whatever. So I can't spell that, but I agree that understanding what we're receiving in the stream flows is something that would be good to have because then we can address it up country too. So anyway

Is Director Molina still with us? Should we ask? I know that, for example, Sea Worm installs gauges in our streams to measure water quality, turbidity, etc. But there isn't one in every gulch. Oh, I see Director Molina. I don't know. Aloha, Director Molina, did you hear... Member Cook's suggestion about public works, doing the water quality sampling and testing in the gulches.

Sure. We're on 4.12 on page 136 of the draft guide booklet.

The county lead agencies we had previously associated with this action item was Department of Management and DEM. When we passed it the first time, just letting everyone know. Member Cook.

Director, it was a suggestion as far as part of your flood mitigation when you're monitoring flows, sediment, et cetera, the aspects for the flood control. And it's not like doing it all the time as taking a water sample a couple of times a year from the main streams and sending it off for a test. That was the concept.

I think, I guess my understanding of this would be, If we're talking specifically in major gulchish streams and waterways, what is being measured is to see if any efforts are being successful in terms of access deer management or planting efforts because We know that there is a problem with massive sedimentation or whatever pollutants, people getting itchy if they surf or swim in the water after a major storm event. But... If nothing is going on to try to prevent this from happening, what does the testing do? Just tell you it's bad when we can kind of see that from complaints in our own eyes.

Hello, Chair. So wouldn't 4.19, the, like, Ridge to Reef Initiative or some other nonprofit doing that work, like, be part of that whole program of, like, establishing, like, a baseline and then measuring improvements through regular testing?

And perhaps we can add some of the language from 12 to 19 if that's the intention.

And after talking this through, I guess my preference is to delete 4.12 and just amend 4.20 because ultimately where we see the effects of major gulch runoff is in the near shore waters. But I think I would like to say, to emphasize testing after major rainfall events near major gulches, streams, and waterways to try and see the outcome of that. We didn't vote on 4.12 amendment yet, yeah. Okay. Is there any objection to striking 4.12 and then coming back to 4.20 instead?

No objection, Chair. And I think you could just make all of that one motion if you wanted to. I would make that motion free. Okay.

I'll entertain a motion to... amend page 136 by striking 4.12 and subsequent renumbering non substantive changes and revisions and to then amend 4.20 to say continue to support a program in compliance with the Department of Health Quality Assurance Program Plan to monitor water quality for all South Maui nearshore waters, paying particular attention or something to runoff from major gulches, streams and waterways following a big rain event.

And it would include the restoration of 4.20 because I think we voted to delete it.

Yeah, restoration of the original 4.20 and the lead agency would be Department of Management and they can pull in either DEM or DPW as they see appropriate because they have jurisdiction of those and I would put state and county funding. since we already are supporting Huyoka-Valle Ola through Maui Nui Marine Resource Council line items for the past few budget cycles that I can recall. So it was moved by Member Rollins-Fernandez, seconded by Member Johnson. Any further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor, raise your hand and say aye.

Thank you. And then I believe we already did 4.21 when we had Department of Water Supply. Is that correct? Yeah, we did. Okay, thank you. Member Rollins-Fernandez.

Did you want to add to 4.19 the water quality testing to determine success of objectives or something? From 4.12? I mean, if that's already assumed, then we don't need to call that out specifically. And I see Ms. Komkowicz nodding her head. So if that's assumed that that's part of the program, then great, Adam.

I guess, Mr. Jackson, as Department of Management is the lead agencies in 4.19 and 4.20 programs, we want to relay to you that the testing referred to in 4.20 is to be kind of a feedback loop for the work being done in 4.19 as kind of a you know like check your work kind of thing if ridge to reef initiative or other similar non-profit is um leveraging resources across agencies and community groups to reduce land-based pollution and damages to coral reef that 4.20 is the monitoring and 4.19 is the caring for. So as we see a massive runoff event and then the monitoring happens, maybe we just ins

Thank you so much. Yeah, I think that's the main point we wanna get across, and as you folks, management will be the lead agency. We need to ensure that you guys see the relationship between the two action items. Staff, do you mind reading back what we ultimately passed for 4.20? I wanna make sure that I took out care for.

Thank you. That's what I wanted. And then we added county as the... funder as well?

Okay, perfect, perfect. Okay, and then we did 4.21 when we had Department of Water Supply, and we did 4.22 when we had Department of Environmental Management. 4.23 on page 139 is a CPAC initiative. And we can see it on page 64 of the matrix. It started out as acquire wetland parcels under the threat of condemnation if necessary. And then it included specific TMKs and designate as open space protected lands in perpetuity. At the Planning Commission, they removed the specific TMKs and it said to preserve as open space protected land in perpetuity. And then recommended changes from our Attorneys

Either planning or Mr. Weltman, I would guess it's the undeveloped wetland area in West Maui still.

Rob, okay. Do you have additional information for Mr. Jackson?

Mr. Jackson, do you have the document with the TMK numbers on? I guess we're not putting it, specifying it in the community plan.

Yeah, it is on page 64 of Attachment 3C. And I guess, you know, we're not limiting it to that and seeing if we could acquire those TMKs. But we may need to consult with a lawyer or someone as to why the specific TMKs were not called out in the plan itself.

Yeah, I think they could only sell it to us for fair market value, but I see what you're seeing about calling out specific TMKs. Mr. Hopper, is there also a legal reason?

Thank you, Chair. The good news, this is happening. The county's in negotiation for some of the properties in these areas, some of the key ones. And hopeful that we can all support the administration to actually do it. We have put funding in in the last two years for this endeavors. And so anyway, I'm supportive of this as long as it's working with the landowners. There is a lot of properties in South Maui that aren't appropriate to develop, that aren't going to be developed, that I think the appropriate outreach to the owners, through cast purchases and or other development rights or somethin

Diplomatically. Thank you. Thank you. So, Mr. Jackson, there is a record of the TMK that the CPAC and everyone was interested in. We just won't name it in the plan, but you have that that you're able to reference. And according to Member Cook, some of the major ones are currently underway and just letting you know that when we pass this action item without major revisions, that means we're supportive. And I don't have any recommendation for amendment as written. So we can move on if members are okay. Okay. Moving on to 4.24. This was a CPAC original that had a few changes after it went through

Thanks. I did assume that, but thank you for clarifying. Yeah. This final language isn't the language that made it into our book, so we would have to put an amendment if that recommended changes are the ones that we'd like to adopt. I guess as this came from our CPAC, if through the community plan where considering gulches and stream beds as open space in the community plan document. I mean, we haven't gotten to the growth maps yet, which is where we would do that. But considering if we do say gulches, and I think, is ephemeral streams is the ones that are always running or, I'm sorry, do you

Yeah, it's a water channel that carries flowing water only during and for a short time after rain or snow melt. And then the constant running is perennial.

So is intermittent and ephemeral kind of redundant in that case?

And then was the intention for it to be perennial?

I don't think South Maui has any perennial streams.

Ephemeral is right after rains and intermittent is a bigger part. Can you repeat?

Okay. So then the other question, I guess, is if one of the recommendations of the plan is to make gulches and streams open space, would our... financial resources be better spent on conservation or eminent domain, conservation easement or eminent domain on wetlands? Because We already know that the, I mean, if we were to choose to designate gulches and streams as open space, what is the benefit of then purchasing them, I guess is my question to the body. Member Cook, is that a legacy hand up? Okay, go ahead.

That's a now hand up, thank you. I just want to share from my conversations with Public Works and the administration and my advocacy for them to purchase some of the properties in South Maui for the wetlands and flood mitigation. The financial part of it, just my thing, is maybe 30%. Legacy management and liability is the overarching long-term challenge because public lands are public lands. And so how you manage the access and the use of them becomes, it's not unmanageable, but it's like if it's not a park and it's, you have to label it as something, you have to do it. So I'm just sharing, th

Thank you. Member Rollins-Fernandez to be followed by Member Johnson.

Mahalo, Chair. Okay, sorry. I wanted to keep looking up intermittent and ephemeral. An intermittent stream flows seasonally during certain times of the year when fed by groundwater or surface water, and ephemeral stream flows only for a short time directly after rain or snowmelt. And the EPA says intermittent streams get water from both surface runoff and USPA groundwater ephemeral streams rely solely on direct surface runoff from precipitation.

I, well, I just, I don't know. I just, I question whether there's actual intermittent streams in South Maui.

Okay, thank you. Is there more or you wanted somebody to answer you?

Yeah, I want someone who has more expertise to tell me that there is.

And it can be later. It's not like super urgent. If we know they don't exist in South Maui, I don't want to put that language in. That's why.

Kalanihako'i could be an intermittent stream. Planner Komkowicz, you concur?

Okay, I mean, my thought was, If it's already going to be designated open space as part of this community plan, do we need to pursue purchasing of it or just co-managing it with the owner was my point of view. Moving on. Mr. Hopper.

Thank you for clarifying that for us. Member Johnson.

Thank you, Chair. I'm going to lower my hand here. I'm trying. Anyways, the I want to go into the county lead organization. It says the planning department is going to take the lead on this. But I was curious, you know, we do have the conservation planning committee that gives recommendations. I wish they would meet. I wish they would, you know, do that part. But the office of the mayor kind of oversees the conservation planning committee. would the body and would the planning support putting in the office of the mayor is also part of the county lead agencies because hopefully someday these fo

Do you want to just call out the Conservation Planning Committee specifically? Because, I mean, as Mr. Weltman pointed out, we've moved things around in the last five years. So it's not Office of the Mayor for the Office of the Mayor's sake, but more so the Conservation Planning Committee. Could we name just an agency like that, like Planning Department, with Conservation Planning Committee? because OED is not its own department. It's also under the Office of the Mayor and we've been calling out OED.

Like explore the feasibility together with the Conservation Planning Committee when they start to meet?

I mean, I think the planning department was called out because they were the agency that initiated the wetlands overlay, maybe.

um because as corporation council said we cannot say you can't develop without having some um offer okay well i guess i definitely would like to have uh the conservation planning community because that'd be a bit more proactive than the way the planning department's being reactive to someone wanting to develop on open space and here comes the permits and now here's our say so i think having that conservation planning committee being proactive, going out and finding these areas that, hey, the county should, we really recommend you guys should buy this or protect this or preserve it, things like

Any comment with planning? And being that they don't meet regularly, do we need a qualifier? Like say, if we were gonna say, explore the feasibility with the Conservation Planning Committee of obtaining the areas identified as wetlands, blah, blah, blah.

All right. And then, do you wanna include state and federal funding sources?

Okay. All right, so I will entertain an amendment for action item 4.24 on page 139 to read, explore the feasibility together with the conservation planning committee of obtaining the areas identified as wetlands with the wetlands mapping study through conservation easements negotiation or eminent domain with no ye in domain, period. Consider including gulches, continuous. Maybe there is no continuous. So I'll consider including gulches, intermittent and ephemeral streams, stream beds, floodplains, and other flood-prone parcels to preserve as open space and adding state and federal as funding s

Just real quick, in the reading of the words, I think, was it wetland inventory map or wetland mapping study?

Wetlands mapping study is the wording that we had here.

Okay. Okay. I wonder, is this, I don't know, what's the, why that instead of wetland inventory map, we have a map that inventories all of these wetlands and this, the wetland. Yeah, let's maybe clear that up before I get confused.

Okay, friendly amendment from wetlands mapping study to wetlands inventory map.

Okay, all right. That's where the wording landed. Any further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor, raise your hand and say aye.

Thank you. Moving on to 4.25. This is another CPAC original that started out with a TMK number and the TMK was taken out and I do like the language that they ended on, 4.25, acquire undeveloped land in the FEMA special flood hazard area to preserve as open space for flood mitigation. So I don't have any changes recommended. I think it's a great idea.

Let's see, 4.26 A and B, we were waiting with Public Works as well as 4.27 and 4.28.

Okay. Thank you. Okay. 4.30 is a planning. Thank you. We're on page 70 of attachment 3C. Started out as a planning department original and then it just added including kilo aina and including managed retreat. So the final wording reads as leverage existing erosion and sea level rise studies, including Kilo Aina, to develop and implement localized beach management and coastal adaptation plans, including managed retreat. Planning, any background on this? We're talking about developing and implementing localized beach management and coastal adaptation plans. It seems a little similar to some of t

Okay, so you guys like it and want to keep it as is?

Okay. That was specifically added by the sea pack. Um, The reason that you want including managed retreat removed is because you guys aren't currently planning?

I guess for me, I'm not excluding the county as the property owner. I saw a photo of Kamaole Tower 1, and it looked as though the stairs had been removed because the, the beach renting Kamaole Tower 1 is a steep drop currently. I also saw a picture of those rock bags that were mentioned in front of, I think, was it Pump Station 7? 2? Pump Station? Oh, Pump Station 7. So, um... including managed retreat can also refer to the county's own assets although in this cases it's not planning department's assets it would be maybe fire and public safety, Department of Parks and Recreation, Department of

Okay, so all of that being said, I don't have a problem with moving on from 4.30. As we've seen, I guess, were you part of the coordination at Baldwin Beach with the removing of the shower, then removing the storage, then removing the pavilion?

Okay, so that's kind of the things that we're envisioning happening for South Maui as well.

Okay, thank you. Members, keeping the condition and moving on, you guys okay with that? Oh, it's 1156. We can go to lunch, if you guys want, and we'll come back. We only have three more action items for four point, or sorry, 2.4, goal 2.4, and then we'll move on to 2.5, and that's not counting the work that we're doing in the background with Public Works and NEMA. So there's more revisits, but... We have three more action items to get through section four, goal 2.4, and then we can come back after lunch, potentially go through 2.5, and that works out perfect for us because Department of OEB Re

Thank you, Chair. I will be on when we get back from lunch in my car, and then I'm going to have like a half an hour break as I pick up my children and then return home. I just wanted to give you a heads up. Thank you.

Thank you. Okay. Seeing no other comment, it's 1158. I'll give you guys two extra minutes on your lunch break today. Consider it my gift to all of you. This meeting is in recess till 1.30. Well, the Disaster Recovery International Affairs and Planning Committee of September 28th returned to order. The time is 1.35. Thank you everyone for allowing us that lunch break time. We had three more in section four, goal 2.4, and then three more revisits in that section, and then we can move on to our last section. That's goal in section four. And most of them are Department of Management. So I do see N

Yeah, and I mean, it didn't specify, but my assumption is it was for South Maui because of South Maui Community Plan. I mean, if you like the way it turns out for South Maui, you could expand it. But I think the intention as an action item was just for South Maui, if that changes things in your mind at all.

Sure, sure. Mr. Weltman, did you want to provide us with any background? Was it damage from all of South Maui, damage to county parcels, damage after a FEMA declared emergency? Like, is there any parameters you could share with us?

Planner Komkowicz, do you recall any of the background of this action item?

Okay. I mean, at the easiest level, it would be damage recorded from a FEMA-declared disaster because we are undergoing that. But, right, Mr. Jackson, we do that on a regular.

It would be difficult to get info on those, yeah.

Inform mitigation and avoid future damage. And most of that information is on Maui Recovers nowadays?

Yeah, because there's a recovery portion of the Maui Recovers website for each... new disaster, I think. And then sometimes even if it isn't declared as a federal disaster, still don't, I don't know if it's MEMA specifically that requests people to send in damage reports to see if it can get to that threshold to get a declared disaster, a federally declared disaster. So like you said, even if it doesn't rise to the level of federal disasters. If you're asking for that info from the public, it could then be put into a database. But I think the emphasis is not necessarily on the database, but in

Okay, does that sound like it aligns with the discussion? Miss concrete.

Well, so they are collecting the information after storms and events, but the part that they're not doing is, I think, or isn't necessarily being done for South Maui is informing mitigation and avoiding future damage. And then I think, you know, just a regular sinkhole that doesn't, or whatever kind of Flooding or wave run up or erosion, like maybe caused by a king tide or something like that. I don't know that. That is being collected on the database other than by, um. sea grant and those folks i think they during the king tides every year try to get citizens to take photos of the thing like

okay so frequency and how it was repaired and things like that included in a either a database or a dashboard of some sort does it does it matter database dashboard not something and is it that you wanted it to be accessible to the public as well or some sort of internal

Okay. We're not. at this point being super specific for the Department of Management what to include, but information to inform mitigation and avoid future damage, Mr. Weltman said like, you know, frequency, how is it addressed, things like that. Do you want us to be super specific or do you wanna have this more general language here so that you can design it? as you see fit, knowing the purpose is to inform mitigation and avoid damage.

Are you okay with being the sole lead agency, or do you think we should name MIMA? Or you guys have oversight of MIMA, so you can just pull them in as the lead agency?

Okay. Given what was said previously, I think the preference would be to have Department of Management be the answering folks and they can pull in NEMA as needed. Does that sound okay with everyone? We can just leave it as it is in that case. and move on consensus. Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to say the C word. Just moving on in that case. onto 4.32 A and B, which we've seen this done before where CPAC proposes action item, that is to create and implement, and then Planning Commission comes in and splits it up into create and then, or develop, and then fund and implement, which is, I think, So it

Can I clarify the part about when other things are being planted, seeds are removed, are they removing native plants to put in other plants?

Okay. Mr. Wilkman, anything to add to that?

in other areas than what he was working on. Okay, so then Mr. Jackson, do you understand the assignment?

Yeah, it sounds like there are some obstacles to overcoming allowing the native plants to seed that some folks may remove either the plant or the seeds before they come to fruition or whatever. And so like developing a plan on how to keep them from... I mean, if I were to go about this, I guess I would identify all the places in South Maui there are existing native plants and try to make a plan for how to let their seeds come to fruition. It wasn't to collect the seeds, though you're talking about hydro mulching with native seeds.

Okay. I guess then... The only thing I would think about is how this interacts with our current fire code. If say there's native plants within five feet of a building and they're over 18 inches or over 36 inches, then it would kind of not meet our fire code in that way. Mr. Jackson. But most times it's the invasives cause the fire to spread.

Being that we're talking about native seeds, maybe Department of OEV Resources might be a better one. Oh, yay, we got Department. Hi. Are you familiar with native seed banks and how they take a while to mature and... Plans needed to keep humans from preventing native plant seeds from coming to fruition.

Oh, awesome, okay. So Mr. Jackson, you have as a resource in the planning and implementation Department of OUV resources where it comes to native seeds, do you feel confident with the wording otherwise?

We can make it work, but I know there's a lot of... Just if we expect EPNS and ag to... assist oev resources we see management as the authority over those various departments that are able to pull them together or assign so um if management is the lead you're following up with EPNS, AG and OUV resources that it's happening and then planning would follow up with you that you're ensuring that it's happening. Is that all right?

Hello, Chair. I wasn't sure if anybody knew if the Department of Land and Natural Resources have native sea banks. I know they do have one up at Puanahulu when we were there. And I was wondering if they do have, should we include the state as a partnering agency?

Yeah. Well, not as a partner agency because it's county, but we can include the state and maybe private as funders as well?

Okay, on both. So it's a plan high and program high, long timing. Department of Management would be the lead to work with the other entities, cost to be determined, and then we'd change the funding sources to add state and private on there. Okay, so it's been moved on page 141, action numbers 4.32 A and B to add state and private funding sources to both 4.32 A and 4.32 B. Department of Management will be the lead agency and they can consult with OEV, AG, and EPNS as needed. So moved by Member Sinensi, seconded by... Member Johnson, any further discussion? Seeing none, everybody supportive, rai

Thank you. Mr. Jackson, we had three more that we skipped when you weren't around. So we'll just go back to those. It looks like member Sugimura is on and maybe she needs some assistance turning her camera on or microphone. At this time, I would like to welcome Member Sugimura to the committee. Sabadee and Aloha Awinola.

Sabadee and I'm sorry I'm late for the meeting and I am at a private meeting room and by myself. Good job, Member Palten.

Thank you. Okay, so Mr. Jackson will go back to 4.07, 4.10 and 4.11. 4.07 on page 55 of attachment 3C started out as a planning department action item and was amended by CPAC, and it reads, provide resources for upland forest conservation, including the dry land forest, invasive species control, and restoration projects to improve forest cover and reduce downstream flooding, support the protection of soils, and mitigate erosion through feral ungulate fencing and invasive species control and management. This would be a project type with high priority, short timing. Department of Management, $2

4.21 talks about providing resource for the protection and rehabilitation of riparian zones, including feral ungulate fencing and planting native plants. So that one is... with Department of Water Supply as a lead agency. And that one is contingent upon development of an anticipated county water source in South Maui because Department of Water Supply watershed restoration hinges on the nexus of a county water supply. So it wouldn't necessarily begin until there's a county water source in South Maui.

Okay, great. I would just entertain a motion to amend 4.07 to make the timeline ongoing and the funding sources county, state, and federal. So moved. Moved by Member Johnson, seconded by Member Sugimura. Any further discussion? Seeing none, everyone raise your hand and say aye in support.

Thank you. Okay, so we have two more to revisit that we didn't have Mr. Jackson with us, I think, on Thursday. And that's on page 136 of your draft booklet. It's 4.10 and 4.11, as shown here on page 57 of attachment 3C. Both are CPAC originals with high priority. 4.10 says implement the Southwest Maui Watershed Plan. And 4.11 reads, as revised, establish... Okay, here. we have different wording in the changes per drafting guidelines and the booklet. And the different wording is on none of the ones on page 57 of the matrix. So I'm not sure what the intent was to be, but What came out in the boo

Okay. And then the advisory group between up country and remember, go ahead.

Thank you, Chair. I was at a Ma'alai Village Association meeting where they gave a presentation on that and the State Forestry, I forget the very dynamic guy, I wish I remember his name. They're taking care of it extensively.

It sounds like they're very engaged in taking care of it and addressing it holistically. They put in water tanks so that they have fire mitigation as well as doing some irrigation. They have livestock in there so they can graze it and control the grass. And they're doing extensive forestry up on the mountain.

Okay, so Mr. Jackson, you just need to partner with DOFA, it sounds like, on that one. Go ahead.

Okay, good, good. And then, um, establishing and supporting a watershed advisory group to coordinate discussions between South Maui and upcountry groups. That does sound like it would fit squarely within management as you know, trying to connect two different community plan residency areas to address this issue that kind of Plagues, South Maui. And I just... guess from our resources i wanted to nail down what you folks intended when you say advisory group like my hope is it's something like the mayor's advisory group to lahaina where they can meet whenever they want they can go wherever they w

Okay. Um, Mr Jackson. Any comment? Is this something within your your department scope that they could handle?

Thank you, Chair. The Soil and Water Conservation District basically is farmers and federal agencies from NRCS, which is the Natural Resource Conservation Service and also Soil Conservation. They are a group that's been ongoing for many, many years up country. And so some of these things are overlapping and it seems like we don't have to reinvent the wheel. It's just the administration and time reaching out and having a conversation Excuse me, I have the hiccups. A dialogue, an ongoing dialogue.

So like knowing that the NCRS group meets up country, maybe getting together some South Maui residents that are passionate about soil and water conservation and keeping it up country rather than coming down and then getting them together and like... Yeah, and it isn't just, I mean...

when we say up country, like the 600 foot elevation for Kihei is pretty close to the coast. And so from our boundary up to Kula is I'm guessing four times wider than from the ocean to our Mauka boundary. Like we're a little strip along the ocean and that's the whole side of the mountain. So they are currently working with the ranches and everything. But yes, to answer your question, it's plugging in. I wish I wanted to get engaged. I've talked a little bit, but I failed to actually be going to meetings and being that involved, but I plan on.

Okay, sounds good. All right. So if Mr. Jackson is okay and has a knowledge of what the expectation is, I'll entertain a motion to amend 136 to read... for 4.11 establish and support a watershed advisory group to coordinate discussions between South Maui and upcountry groups in planning and managing Kula and Honuaula watersheds. Period. Encourage participation from stakeholders, Mauka to Makai, including agencies that manage or regulate lands, residents, landowners, interested community groups, and NGOs, also changing the timing to ongoing. So moved. Moved by Member Johnson, seconded by Member

Thank you. And that completes 2.4 section four, um, minus the ones that we went over with public works earlier this morning that they're going to send to us in writing to go over. Um, Staff, did we cover everything that we needed to cover that wasn't outstanding with public works in this goal?

Moving on to Goal 2.5, Section 4, page 142. starting off with goal 5.01. So 5.01 started out as a planning department action. It's to establish a code of conduct for county parks with cultural sites in South Maui and install signs explaining the code of conduct at appropriate locations. This is a project type with medium priority. Short timing, the county lead agency is Department of OEB Resources, but it's spelled out instead of the acronym that we had originally said we were going to use, which I don't know that anyone cares, but we just wanna be consistent. And then the cost, 50,000 county

Yeah, and just clarifying, the action item itself is specifically county parks with cultural sites. I don't know that we want to limit it, but that's what this action item is in county parks with cultural sites. But if the department feels they want to expand it to other sites, other departments, I don't know that we have any objection to that. That's... good as far as we're concerned. Member Shinichi?

Chair, this is the one I brought up about some cultural practitioners calling my office about access. This is the Wailea Beach Park, and it's between the Four Seasons and the Grand Wailea. And so it does have some burials on it. It's a small little park, but it does have burials on top. Some of the burial or OEV protectors wanted to at least put signage or put some kind of uh barrier around the pool there's a pool um that they put all the ev uh underneath and if we could uh address that that was the uh the request that i had from the ev protectors i don't know what the the parks uh do grant um

Thank you, Member Sinensi. Are you knowledgeable if that beach park is owned by the county and maintained by the county, or is it...

And Deputy Robinson, you're familiar with this park?

Okay, so they're aware of it and are already engaged. So then if everyone is okay with this action item, I'm okay with it and have no recommendation for amendment. I will listen if anyone from the floor has one, but I don't see anything. So we can move on to 5.02. which was a department initiated action item. It was added to a few words such as agreements between Native Hawaiian organizations, nonprofits, And then it was changed a couple times on the matrix. And then not as part of the matrix, dry land forests were added. So I'm not sure where that came from. But the final language in the book

Oh, okay. So we can leave that in there. Um, any thoughts as to the timing being ongoing?

So we can change short to ongoing. And Mr. Jackson, this would be management as the lead agency.

Planning, was there discussion about who would be the lead agency and a reason that management was selected ultimately by,

Okay. So OEV didn't exist when this was contemplated originally. Do you, does OEV, Deputy Robinson, does, is Department of OEV Resources aware of collaborative restoration and preservation efforts in South Maui around either dry land forests, fish ponds, wetlands, and lo'i?

Awesome. And do you have any issue with the way it's worded in the description and the intent would be to possibly change timing to ongoing? funding sources maybe include state, federal, and private as well? Or do you see any other changes that you would recommend here?

So they put fishponds, would you like it to say prioritize dryland forests, loko ia, wetlands, loko and lo'i within South Maui?

Okay, and that's with a K, yeah? L-O-K-O. Yeah. Okay. And then maybe we may need to add a definition in the ʻOlelo Hawaiʻi glossary.

Thank you. There is loko kuapa and loko ia, but I don't see loko, so we can, non-substantive changes and revisions, also add that into the Olelohewa I glossary. So I will entertain a motion on page 142 to amend 5.02. to insert the word LOKO, L-O-K-O, with a comma, before fishponds, to amend the timing to ongoing, and to include state, federal, and private funding sources in addition to county.

Moved by Member Johnson, second by Member Sinensi. Any further discussion? Member Uuhat James.

Thank you, Chair. I have no discussion on this particular thing. Happy to support. Sounds awesome. But for my disclosure, I am now back at my private residence and I have two school-aged children with me as well. And a cat that's sneezing. Thank you.

Oh, they had school today. Lucky them. Okay. I'm just trying to get my kids back in school. Member Rollins-Fernandez.

Mahalo, Chair. Same disclosure. My children are returning from school and my husband's not home yet, but he will be shortly. McKenna Fernandez. Mahalo, Chair.

Thank you. Every day my kids get to go to school, I'm very grateful, but today was not the day. So I don't see any more discussion relevant to the vote. So all those in favor, raise your hand and say aye.

Thank you. Moving on to action item 5.03, which is also on page 73 of the matrix, attachment 3C. and it reads, adopt reporting procedures that make it easy for the public to track the implementation of planned developments as well as settlement agreements between interveners and developers. Um, and this was to be a planning department led action with high priority, ongoing timing to be determined, cost, county is the funding source and it's a program. This could potentially be a general plan action, but right at this moment, it's a South Maui community plan action. So I don't know if this is T

Thank you so much. If Member Cook doesn't mind, we may need to revisit 5.02 because after all of that, I didn't entertain a motion to amend the lead agency to OEV resources. So if somebody would make a motion to amend 5.02 and have OEB resources be the lead agency instead of Department of Management. Moved by Member Cook, seconded by Member Sinensi. All those in favor, raise your hand and say aye. Thank you so much. Sorry about that. And then Member Cook comments on 5.03.

Thank you, Chair. 5.03 is an interesting one. And I hear what the planning department said. It's like when people, because I would say instead of not just the settlement agreement, but also whatever the term is when they challenge it. Basically, if there's a development, and an entity will challenge it, they take it to the judiciary. Whatever happened to the judiciary is when there's a settlement. That settlement may or may not be public. And so I don't know if that's what this means, or if it's a settlement like an SMA dispute, which is not judiciary.

And the other question I had was like, When I hear the word planned developments, I feel like it's referring to a development that's being planned, but does that mean something different to planners, planned development? Isn't just any development with plans, it's a specific type of development with plans that are different than other development that has plans?

Or like form-based code. Is that what you guys are referring to, form-based code, or no?

Okay, and then I guess to Mr. Weltman, are you aware of the differences of plan development and development with plans and that it's a specific type of development as referred to by Title 19 code that plan development is talking about a specific type of development and it's not just any development with plans?

So maybe we take out the word plans and you want to say adopt reporting procedures that make it easy for the public to track the implementation of developments as well as settlement agreements that the county is a party to between interveners and developers.

Approved. Okay. Member Cook, did you have your hand up?

Thank you, Chair. A project that resonates with me on this is like Wailea 670 because it was approved a long time ago and people were curious about it. There was a lot of perceptions and changes and then communications about what was and wasn't committed. During that process, there was a number of court challenges that were part of a delay and the result of the court challenges are not within the planning department. So they weren't necessarily visible settlement. So I'm just, I personally think it would be great if the county, the public, everybody had some visibility into the transition of w

Yeah, knowing that now that the CPAC didn't mean specifically planned developments as described in the code, but maybe approved developments, that have their discretionary approvals, but not ministerial approvals, like where it is, does that change your outlook? And then if it's just approved, discretionary approved developments within the South Maui Community Plan Area, does that change? your previous response, because a lay person could understand planned development as something very different than what the planning department means when they say planned development and they reference a sec

Is that fair? Yeah. And I mean, to that extent, I think West Maui also would love something like this because, you know, Kaanapali 2020 came and went and it's now 2026 and other things. But I guess, you know, if it can be done, I'm sure everyone would love it as a higher general plan action. but we can maybe start out with South Maui as a pilot and see how it goes. I mean, I understand the life of the plan is 20 years. They wanted to give it a high priority and it already does say ongoing. So if we think of South Maui as the pilot program for countywide, and then we can get feedback from you f

Okay, that's what we'd love to hear. So I'll entertain an amendment on page 142 for action number 5.03 to say adopt reporting procedures that make it easy for the public to track the implementation of, do I need to say discretionary approved or can I just say approved development?

Oh, okay. So the public to track the implementation of developments that have been approved with discretionary entitlements as well as settlement agreements between interveners and developers that the county is aware of.

moved by Member Johnson, seconded by Member Sugimura. Any further discussion? Sorry, I came up with that wording on the fly, so I will accept any feedback from planning as to the wording.

With implementation of developments with discretionary entitlements as well as settlement agreements between interveners and developers that the county is aware of. Discretionary approvals. Discretionary approvals. Developments with discretionary approvals. Got it stuff. Okay. You mind reading it back to us.

Okay. And so that was moved by member Johnson. Second, I remember seeing more any further discussion. And this could be brought to the general plan level, but this is specifically for South Maui as kind of a pilot. I don't think we need to say that because it's in the South Maui Community Plan, right? We're aware that it's just South Maui here. Okay, any further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor, raise your hand and say aye.

Thank you. Moving right along to 5.04. This one was a South Maui CPAC original. Develop and implement processes, procedures, and procedures for cultural advisor engagement and a database to track to document and track outcomes. So this was a program with high priority ongoing timing. Uh, planning department is the lead agency and the funding is county source to be determined. It seems that this is similar to M I P action, but, um, it was recommended to delete this. And I'm assuming either Corp Council are planning. And so if we can get some clarification on the reasoning for the recommended de

Is it too similar to the Maui Island Plan action?

Okay. And for the planning department, was it you didn't recommend deletion?

Okay, let's try and figure out what exactly the CPAC had in mind when they proposed this and maybe we can get some feedback from OEB resources as well. Mr. Weltman, do you recall the background for this action item 504?

um deputy robinson or director molitao do you have any feedback um as written develop and implement processes and procedures for cultural advisor engagement and a database to document and track outcomes mahalo chair um to be very honest i don't i'm not

Okay. So, Mr. Weltman, you can check in with Mr. Kanahele. We can mark this on our revisit list for now because we're a little bit,

Okay. Mr. Weltman, do you understand the legal concern is that we would be creating an exclusive list and that's not currently in our authority. And if we use that exclusive list to then disqualify something, that might not be something we're allowed to do legally.

and maybe check with him what kind of outcomes we're documenting and tracking. Okay, so we'll revisit 5.04 because we're not super clear. 5.05 started out as a department action. CPAP just changed significant historic properties to add in Vahikupuna and significant historic properties. And then, Drafting changes should to May. So the final words in your book is 5.05, identify wahi kupuna and significant historic properties in South Maui that the county may purchase for preservation. It's a project type with medium priority, short timing. The lead agency was identified as OEV. for a to be deter

I just would recommend timing to be ongoing as well instead of just short. Any feedback for us?

And you're okay with being the lead in the verbiage?

You're okay with state, federal, and private and changing to ongoing as well?

Yeah. Okay, great. I'll entertain a motion to amend page 143, action item 5.05 to change the timing to ongoing and to add state, federal, and private funding in addition to county funding. Motion made by Member Cook, seconded by Member Sinanchi. Any further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor, raise your hand and say aye.

Thank you. Moving on to action 5.06, which is a planning department action item. As we can see on page 74, there were no changes of attachment 3C. So it reads, identify additional locations in South Maui to host and hold art and cultural events. It's a project type with medium priority, short timing. Lead agency is Department of Management. Any feedback from Mr. Jackson?

Great, great. Either for planning or Mr. Weltman, was this intended to be any type of location or was it limited to county locations? Like if the Department of Management worked out something with a resort or commercial property to hold art or other things, is that within the scope

Okay. Mr. Jackson, you understand the assignment here?

Great. And just checking in on the timing being short, is it something you envision like ongoing or short is appropriate?

Okay. I'll entertain a motion to amend on page 143, action item 5.06 to change short to ongoing. Moved by member Cooks, seconded by member Sinensi. Any further, or Sugimura, sorry. You guys look similar, I guess. Any further discussion? Oh, no, you're just next to each other on my screen. That's what it is. All those in favor, say aye.

Thank you. Moving on to 5.07. This is a CPAC original on page 74 of your Attachment 3C. It says Establish Cultural Parks. preserves, and heritage corridors for visitation and education. This is a program type with a medium priority, long timing. The lead agency would be OEB resources. The cost would be to be determined, and the funding sources would be county and state. I think we could add federal and private on here. But other than that, any feedback from Deputy Robinson?

Thank you. I guess I did want to check in. with Mr. Weltman, like when I see this cultural parks, preserves, heritage corridors for visitation and education, for me, when I think of South Maui, it makes me think of Mr. Nemet's project, specifically in the immediate, because I believe he does have school groups going there it's cultural in the way that he's restoring it and it's kind of a corridor i mean obviously there's many other interpretations to be had but that would fit to me is that one type that would satisfy it and i mean obviously there could be um the whale sanctuary, loko i'a is an

Like the National Well Sanctuary or the Kealia Boardwalk area, more so?

Thank you. Director, did you want to add something as well?

Thank you. And to clarify with Mr. Weltman, it didn't need to be county owned and managed. They can also assist with other places that are open to the public but owned by others.

Hmm. Okay. Um, so with all that said, I'll entertain a motion to amend page 143 action number 5.07 to change the timing to ongoing and to add funding sources of federal and private, including any non substantive changes or revisions when we ultimately decide how we will be, um, documented as the lead agency move by members and NC seconded by member Sugimura any further discussion seeing none all those in favor raise your hand and say aye chair nine eyes zero knows motion passes thank you moving on to five point zero eight this is one for us gain the council being the lead agency So this is a C

Okay, so we're actually enacting. Okay, member Uhu Hodgins.

Hi, sorry, I just had to tell my kids to stop going outside. It's so loud. A while ago, I was working on a bill and we partnered with OEV. So I think this is great. I'm happy to support it. We do have a draft bill. Life got crazy in the council, so we haven't rescheduled the meeting. But Bro, I just told you, stop going outside. Can you get it? Fine. Can we also add OEV, please? Because they were crucial in helping us figure out a lot of the language in there. We met with them a while ago, like I said, and it was kind of the beginning of everything. So we can continue to partner with that. But

Thank you, and then Member Uuhajins, your legislation that we are hoping to enact, was it specific to South Maui region or did it?

It was for the whole island and initially we were going to begin with a pilot for Hana because members and NC was in our meetings as well and we had to have director rots in there holding our hands so we didn't commit to anything so that was fun but. in order for it to um interact with this and intersect with this we we can um i would ask member senente you know his opinion as well but we could for sure um but it was for the whole island and it was going to combine all of the different databases we have and create one for us um on a separate note we were talking as as i was driving home i was

Yeah, I think when we had entered... Oh, I'll let Member Sinensi talk, because he...

was the original original model chair and i think i'm supportive of this i think um prior you know people thought that this was more anti-development uh however this is just to help developers so that before they even plan or do their conceptual drawings and uh this is just to let them know that hey there are some historical sites in certain areas so you may not want to uh well you don't want to develop here it's just it's just us letting developers know that there are uh historic sites in the area thank you chair unfortunately um there's already been plenty that has been either disturbed or b

Mahalo, Chair. Sorry, I'm also monitoring the Department of Ag, Plant and Animal Advisory Committee for our CRB rule that they're about to pass, hopefully. And I just, I know, again, it's lapsed and we're now, you know, potentially vulnerable. But it looks like they're going to pass it. Okay. I just wanted to weigh in real quick. I heard, remember, Uu Hajin's concerns about public money being used, and so it could potentially be opened up to public access. And I think, like, with public money, it's public interest. And if the interest is not access for the public, but the interest is protectio

Thank you. I wanted to add also that the first time we were discussing this with Dr. Six, the idea of like crosshatch indicating a cultural gap. an area of significant archaeological, historical and cultural resources could be the avenue used. There are that here and it would be identified by a crosshatch and not specifically called out what it is, but this is an area to avoid. I guess the question is, if we were to enact an ordinance that was either countywide or islandwide, that wouldn't be against this because it's inclusive of South Maui, correct, Mr. Hopper or Ms. Nakata? If we were adopt

Correct, because the action item is to do one for South Maui region to protect. But as this had previously been worked on until before Lahaina burning down, it was intended as an ordinance countywide. So if it continued on and got enacted countywide, it would still satisfy this condition.

Okay, all right. So then I will entertain a motion to amend page 143, action number 5.08 to say introduce legislation to adopt a cultural overlay map for the South Maui region to protect areas of significant archaeological, historical and cultural resources based on existing studies and previously identified historic properties. If it's okay, oh no, short is one to five years, so that should be okay. I would add on to council OEB resources and funding sources to include state because from what I remember, Dr. Six was just going to also use the state's database. So I mean, Funding or additional

Thank you very much. Moving right on to action number 5.09. This is another CPAC original that reads, Encourage the State of Hawaii to fund and carry out an archaeological inventory on state properties in South Maui. Project type high priority mid timing lead agency would be resources not applicable. The cost and funding source listed as the state. Um. Mr. Weltman, you want to provide us any background you remember on this item? Like in terms of encourage, would that be like a letter to the state, ship to you or something, or invite them out to dinner and talk story, or blow me the shoulders?

Oh, okay, okay. You haven't even heard where we're going yet. But okay, Deputy Robinson, any ideas here on how you would encourage the state of Hawaii to fund and carry out AIS on state properties?

the county owns so the county has that information but we can always ask the state to do so as well thank you and thank you for mentioning that um in practice they do it when it's tied to a project like meaning a development project and so i did want to clarify with mr weltman that um the CPAC discussed this independent of any development project. It was the intention of CPAC that they would do the inventory of their state-owned lands in South Maui and have it not be tied to impending or proposed development. Is that correct?

Okay, I'll go to Member Sinensi followed by Deputy Robinson. Go ahead, Member Sinensi.

Hello, Chair. I just had a question. Does the Department of OEV Resources review building plans as one of the agencies to approve plans?

Yeah, mahalo, Deputy Director, because I know we've got a couple properties in East Maui that will be forever for sale. And people have already built on sacred grounds. And for some reason, the people who buy these places just can't live in them. So thank you for that.

And then Deputy Robinson, did you have your hands up for your own? Or was it?

Thank you. And then I guess for the action item we are on now for mid, maybe it's an ongoing, like, quarterly request or something. You want to do an inventory yet? You want to do an inventory yet? You want to do an inventory yet? Kind of thing.

Thank you. So if there is no objections, I would just amend on page 143, action number 5.09 to change the timing from mid to ongoing. And any other non-substantive changes? Moved by Member Sinensi, seconded by Member Sugimura. All those in favor, raise your hand and say aye.

Thank you. Okay, moving on to 5.10. This is a CPAC original. It says identify locations and funding sources to acquire land if needed and build cultural centers and museums in Kulakai and Honuaulakai. And this is a project type with high priority, short timing, OEB resourcing being the lead agency and cost estimate $250,000 funding sources are the county and the state. Okay. Even in 2022, I don't know about acquiring land and building a cultural center for $250,000, but okay. Member Sinensi.

I just wanted to hear the discussions from the CMA.

Okay. Mr. Weltman, do you have any background on this discussion?

So you're open to federal and private resources?

Okay. Any feedback from Deputy Robinson? Is this something that you folks should be the lead agency on or more so Department of Management if we're possibly acquiring land and building something?

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Chair. At the NACO meeting and other meetings with Wade Lee, excuse me, he's the State Director, Hawaii Western Pacific USDA Rural Development, and a truly remarkable man. He's based on the Big Island. And he was offering and saying that there's the opportunity to utilize the funds to build a emergency shelter, multi-purpose facility. And I was thinking the 140 acres by the police station is one of, I'm just saying one aspect, that area preserve the willy-willy and do everything. I'm gonna reach out to him again, but he was very enthusiastic and he said on Kauai, t

Thank you. And I was concerned with it being a short timeline, but it doesn't say that we need to buy and build. It just says identify locations and funding sources. So I think five years, you already identified one potential funding source. So we're halfway there.

His message to me was hurry up and get it together. What he needs is a nonprofit who can basically spearhead it.

Yeah, I would like to hear how it was selected Kulakai. as a location. And I think because of the, you know, the Vontempski property that we purchased 200 something acres. And I wonder if that may be like another alternative, but I'm interested to see how this came up.

Oh, it's Kulakai and Honuaulakai, but isn't the Vontempski property in upcountry? It is. Yeah. But it's specific. the South Maui community plan. So I don't know that the South Maui community plan members would advocate for a cultural center up country. They want it in their community plan area. But when we get around to Kula, that could be one of their community plan actions.

Yeah, well, I'm just wondering where that came from. Any discussions? Not aware. That's fine.

Mr. Weltman can share. I mean, it's two locations, Kulakai and Honuaulakai, but go ahead.

Thank you. Member Cook, did you have your hand up as well? Oh, legacy hand, okay. All right, so with that said, the only amendment I'll entertain on page 143 for action item 5.10 is to add federal and private, incorporating any non-substantive changes and revisions.

Moved by Member Johnson, seconded by Member Uuhajins. Any further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor, raise your hand and say aye.

Thank you. This one is interesting, 5.11. It's a CPAC original, and I see that they named the Native Hawaiian Organization, which is probably because OEB Resources wasn't created at the time. However, the lead agency is OEB Resources. It's a project. high priority, short timing, $250,000 estimated costs, with the county being the primary funding source. So it says fund a study for the restoration of Pu'u Hele in consultation with Native Hawaiian organizations. And I guess my understanding is Pu'u Hele was a mound kind of at the start of South Maui in the Ma'alaia area, and it was excavated unt

Okay, so if we have OEV as the lead, maybe it could be fund a study for the restoration of Pu'uhale because they are knowledgeable about Native Hawaiian resources and whatnot, but any comment on how you envision following this action item from Deputy Ramenshi?

Thank you. I guess for me it would be starting with understanding the significance of u'uhele pre-contact and taking accountability for what was allowed to occur and then going from there on what restoration could potentially look like. But I think what could be done is creating the education of what it originally stood for, for sure. When I searched it up on the internet um the main reference i saw to pu'uhele was um in terms of like tourism um and i think it was some sort of charter tour or something like that so it it would be good at the very least of restoration to go back to the pre-cont

So something like fund the study for the restoration of Pu'u Hele to include technological studies of effects caused or something?

Okay, so it would be okay with just fund the study for the restoration of Puʻuhele and you folks would reach out to Native Hawaiian organizations and we don't need to include that because you would reach out to sources as well as internal...

Is the estimate of 250,000 appropriate with discounting resources you folks lead agency timing one to five years high priority project type? Okay.

High priority is just the feelings. The short is one to five. Mid, I believe, is five to ten. And... long is more than 10, I believe.

Sorry, I don't... It's listed as short, which would be over the next one to five years following plan adoption. Is that sufficient? Or you want five to 10 years? No, that's sufficient. Thank you. And so the time begins once the plan is adopted, which we still have a bit. Okay, so do you folks want to leave it as is? Or do you think that we should delete in consultation with Native Hawaiian organizations?

We know that that is your intention, but do you want it to be included?

Okay. I'll entertain a motion from the floor if anyone wants that. If not, we can move on. Move on. Okay. Last two. Okay. 5.12 on page 75 of attachment 3C started out as action number 5.05 and it was slightly modified by CPAC to read obtain funding. and install signs to identify Vahikupuna and historic sites throughout South Maui in consultation with appropriate Native Hawaiian groups and organizations. This is a project type with medium priority, short timing. The lead agency was Department of Management. The cost was $25,000 to $100,000, with funding sources being the county. So obviously, D

Okay, before we go to Deputy Robinson, I did want to consult with Mr. Weltman. Are we talking about all Vahikupuna and historical sites or those on county properties or how is there any distinction?

Thank you. Deputy Robinson, any feedback on this one for us? Does it sound like one your department could or should take the lead on?

Okay, so we can change the lead agency to OEV. The duration is short, as in one to five years after adoption. Do you see us still needing to go in consultation with appropriate Hawaiian groups and organizations? Keep that in there?

Okay. So I'll entertain an amendment on page 144 for action number 5.12 to change the county lead agency to OEB resources. including any non-substantive changes and revisions. Moved by Member Uhu Hajin, seconded by Member Johnson. Any further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor, raise your hand and say aye.

The last one we have here. is kind of interesting. It starts out as action number 5.06 from the planning department. And then there are no changes, no significant changes made. And then there were some changes per drafting guidelines and it reads now, partner with state, agencies, county departments and community groups to develop and implement a plan to address the negative impacts, negative repercussions of tourism, overcrowding and recreational businesses on marine resources, shoreline access and enjoyment. The plan may prioritize Native Hawaiian, cultural practices and public shoreline acc

In addition to the South Maui Community?

And staff, can you make a note on the follow up that this was also recommended? Okay, Mr. Jackson, feelings about this action item?

Okay. Would you like to hear a little bit about the original intent from, um, I guess planning. Yeah. Okay. Planning. I, I guess you may have inherited an explanation for Mr Jackson.

And my understanding is that was before the authorization of the implementation of the Park Maui plan and that is potentially one methodology that the Department of Management is employing in that, like there's weekends and times and, three resident parking and things would, that's already going on, I think, or enabled for South Maui. Was it a one and done, like, yeah, we did it? Or is it an ongoing?

I guess for me, hearing that this action item was developed by the county planning department in response to the outreach sessions, I can see how the county interpreted it as what can we do within our scope. But if I was a participant in an outreach session for South Maui Community Plan, I can see that my intention is the entirety of the coastline and all the places I'd like to go, not specifically county beach parks, which the Park Maui program tries to do what's within our power on our beach parks to address the resident frustration with whatnot. So I don't want to, pretend or assume that th

Oh, yeah. I had front row parking at Napili Bay anytime I wanted to.

Hello, Chair. With the CPAC being open to adding, well, we already have the state. I'm just thinking working with the DMAP guys on just some of these issues.

I think also maybe when I read, make it easier to enforce existing regulations through the cooperation of various agencies. For me, what comes to mind is the pre-setting of beach chairs and umbrellas on the front row of the sand. When they have their workers put up lounge chairs and umbrellas, at the crest of a sand berm at seven in the morning, then somebody comes at like eight or nine and they think that they then cannot set up there, but there's no, that's public property that's being, you know, kind of sold. as a cabana space, not officially, but if the person, you know, we had issues like

Did you say economic development or OED resources?

Partnering and DMAP is a state agency. Member Sinensi?

Hello, Chair. At the HACC conference, the Maui Visitors Bureau did say that hotels are hiring more cultural advisors at each of the hotels. So maybe that would be an avenue for us to, or the community, to reach out to those cultural advisors at each of those hotels and then maybe help to teach. For us in East Maui, The only thing with our tour, we welcome tourism, but I think right after disasters, if we're cleaning up, if there are ice surf, downed trees, downed power lines, we would kind of want visitors to not travel to certain areas as we clean up those disaster areas, Jim. Thank you.

Thank you. And I would, I guess, leave Department of Management as the lead agency, and then you can pull in OED or OEV or who you'd like. Deputy Robinson, did you have something you'd like to add?

Thank you. Okay. I will entertain a motion to amend page 144, action number 5.13 to partner with state agencies, county departments, and community groups to develop and implement a plan to address the negative repercussions of tourism, overcrowding and recreational businesses on marine resources, shoreline access and enjoyment, period. The plan must prioritize Native Hawaiian cultural resources and practices and public shoreline access and make it easier to enforce existing regulations through the cooperation of various agencies period and change the timing to ongoing and funding sources to in

Thank you so much. That brings us to the end of section four, minus any revisits that we're waiting on in writing from Public Works and MEMA and whatnot. We can start off on Wednesday. We'll adjourn today. We're going to start off on Wednesday with Section 3. And we have this Granicus 38, and I believe maybe 37. But before public testimony on Wednesday, the planning department created this community plan designation slide. Some of us were still on when West Maui Community Plan was the first community plan area to used the new community plan designations, but not all of us were on the council a

I'm sorry, maybe I'm misinformed, but I thought there was no meeting on Wednesday. Did we post it?

I believe we posted it. So there's, we kind of went over this this morning. We're adjourning today and there is a council meeting tomorrow. Then we're posting a meeting for Wednesday. We're meeting on Wednesday. Thursday, we have a depth on Kaho'olawe and then we're recessing the Wednesday meeting to Friday afternoon at 1.30. We posted, right? Yeah, we posted. So that's the plan. We'll start off with presentations from the planning department. Then we'll go into public testimony. Then we'll start reviewing Section 3, recess, have a depth on Thursday, and come back Friday afternoon to continue

Member Cook? So Friday afternoon at what time?

You guys okay to adjourn at this time? Members, if there are no objections, I will defer this item with the understanding that our main motion as amended will carry over to the next meeting on Wednesday. No objections? Okay, continuing on. This concludes today's Disaster Recovery International Affairs and Planning Committee meeting. Thank you very much, everyone. DRIP won't be meeting tomorrow because of the Council meeting, so we'll be reconvening a new meeting Wednesday morning, taking oral testimony once again and continuing with Section 3 growth framework after the opening presentation. Th