Architectural Review Board - Regular Meeting

We have quorum. Excellent. Pledge of Allegiance.

Everybody had a chance to look at the meeting minutes?

Second. All right. All in favor say aye. Aye. With three approvals, meeting minutes have been approved.

Very well. Is the applicant for 148 Ball Bay ready? Yes. All right. Building official, want to read the report?

Very well. All clear. So the applicant, we ready to make the PowerPoint active? There we go. All right. Just state your name for the record.

Yes. Just to clarify something. Dwight, these joints are available for any neighbor to download in the city portal. So any neighbor that is interested in having the full package being presented here, you could upload it from the Internet. You have the full package available.

Yeah, just want to clarify that because I notice you have an interesting pocket.

So that's kind of interesting because... That system, which is otherwise known as a nano wall, right? A folding thing. Yes. There's a lot of aluminum in that system, right? Because the panels are only, what, like 40 inches?

So, I mean, just a point, because, you know, the look that you show in your rendering almost looks like it's frameless from the outside, right? It's a different look than what this is really going to give you. I'm just saying, you know, you haven't really simulated in the rendering. Maybe that's the Brazilian architect that sort of went minimalistic and doesn't understand that there's going to be a lot of aluminum, so it gives you a different look, I'm just saying. Yes. It's not the same look of this sort of perfect mirror with no aluminum on the outside. Right.

On the inside of the system, you have a glass rail system? Correct.

That inverted knife edge canopy, right? Yes. Do you have a detail of that, how you're working that out from, let's say, the way you're applying stucco or the finish system?

As you pour it? You're going to stamp it as you pour it?

So all the water, of course, that falls in that edge, which is knife edge and sloping, all of that sort of cascades off.

Got it. Yeah. And then the finish in the underside of those canopies is just stucco?

So these renderings were generated by the design architect? Correct. Okay. Yeah, so just my concern is that because that beautiful mirror-like look, right, that's so kind of poetic and beautiful, it's not what it's really going to look like. I think that we should get stricter here with the representational images of renderings to be as close as possible to simulating the reality of what's going to get built. This is a bit more conceptual in that sense. I mean, it's beautiful, but again, it would be interesting to see it, to be able to see it with the actual folding door system and all the alu

The detail wasn't really clear to me. Yeah. where your glass rail, unfortunately. Right in there.

Yeah, right here. Just for the record, Dwight, this projector is really washed off. It's kind of useless. The projector is useless.

So just to be clear, you've got sliding system on the inside, okay, and then you've got the shoe. With the railing. Correct. And then on the outside, you have a folding system.

So why the redundancy? Why the sliding system and the other system as well?

They want to make it glass. It's like a persiana system.

It seems to show that folding system to also be a glazing system, not a petiziana system.

I mean, the big challenge, right, with a Brazilian architect is that he's not used to dealing with all the aluminum that we have to deal with in this environment with a wind factor. Everything is lighter and more fragile and more minimal in Brazil.

And I'm afraid that the intention here is going to be kind of catastrophic to the intention. I mean, to use a strong word, right? Catastrophic is a good word? Okay. Do you agree with that word, Mr. Gomez? You haven't spoken yet. You'll have something to say. We're trying to make a judgment on how close the actual build project is going to be to the original intention. We're not questioning the intention. We're just sort of saying that detail based on our experience, both that detail at the bottom of the system and on the top from your rendering it's not like it's not the reality you know i mea

Typically the sliding panels are allowed to be wider, for example, than your nano wall or folding wall system. So then when you see that, right, when you see the layering of that, I think it could be kind of disappointing, you know, to what was actually intended, right? And the house is all about this. I mean, this house is kind of about these details, right? That's why I'm kind of disappointed that you didn't take the detail all the way to the edge. How does it drip? What are the thicknesses? You know, all these things should be a requirement to have a satisfactory submittal for the Board of

So the roofing system is going to be like a fluid-applied system on this? Correct, yeah.

Hold it for a second. Let us enjoy it because it's important. So this is all new trees, right? Nothing existing?

So on the side, again, these images are kind of washed off on the screen. That screen is really far away. Oh. Yeah, there you go.

Just what is your paving system on that side where you have cars parked? That's the paving system. Yep, correct. I see. So that's, you know, like if you have an event, that's where everybody's going to come and park. So there's a concern in the village about sort of overflow parking.

A one-car garage? Yes, a one-car. Is that a Brazilian thing?

One car gets inside, everybody else outside, all right? I mean, there's no minimum parking requirement within the house in the code. A single car does it, yeah. That's the one lucky car. Yeah, all right. I'm sure it's for the lady of the house. Okay, so then that's your ground floor. Just trying to understand the relationship between, you know, indoor, the terraces. The terraces really are protected by that canopy, right?

You have a section that shows that relationship with the mezzanine between the ground level and the second level. Yes. It would be good to take a look at that. Sure.

That kind of shows the ceiling heights and how...

Yeah, it would be nice to be able to explain that with a real section. Because it's kind of interesting, this idea of a mezzanine between the ground level, second level. How does that work and still get your AC ductwork distribution, all these other things that have to happen in these houses?

I'm feeling like this is a Penn & Teller show. I think it's probably architecturally for the architectural design value since I've been in the board and it's been I think two years now. It's probably one of the most exciting looking houses. Now, what comes along with that is a harsh review. You're proposing something that theoretically is fantastic. However, you're not showing us that this can be done. I know that you have anyways. However, your design clearly is not going to look like this. I don't understand some of the sections because you provide a very little detail. That one detail actua

Now, that's a big deal because when I look at this, this is – Great. Architecturally, I'm looking at something and I'm like, wow. I'd love to see that house built. However, I just don't see you being able to build what you're showing me with the elevations. It's just impossible. I'm actually, with all due respect, I'm building a very similar house for Ricardo Bofill at 44 Star Island with... That basic design, the long cantilevers, if you drive by MacArthur Causeway, you can see it under construction. Very heavy concrete, eyebrows and so on and so on. So the spirit is kind of similar in a way.

You added some really beautiful details.

And I don't see those details anymore. truly happening. You see this, especially when you have these folding doors, you're not gonna get this. And I know that this is doable. You could do it if you wanted to. There's plenty of houses, I'm sure you've seen some of the, especially out on the West Coast, with a very, very reflective glass, and you just see a system that is very, very narrow, and you can get this. This, what we're seeing here, those folding doors are not going to give you that. So there's a number of details that I find that we need to see, a cross-section to show you how that mez

So today, I love the project. And I would be tempted to say, you know, go for it. But I think there's a lot of things missing that, you know, just like Rinaldo said, I I would love to see those details. I'd love to see something more realistic, more 3D views, perhaps one for each corner, so that then you can really tell. It was difficult to understand, I believe it's your north elevation. It's very difficult to understand the north elevation. Even with good drawings and a good screen and so on, you try to see it. So, to me... I love the design, but I think it's lacking a little more informatio

Yes. I think like you said originally, the burden of producing something like this conceptually as a design concept is How are you going to detail it and execute it in this very restrictive environment that we have? You know, like when Roman Foster, any of these distinguished architects come here, you need like a window wall consultant to really do a one-time engineering and so on to accomplish some of these things. You guys separately NOA systems that are trying to perform together. I would like to see how they perform together. you know, in terms, again, the width of the panels of the sliding system versus the width of the panels of the folding system because it's two different things, right?

It ends up having a lot of aluminum, right, considering, you know, the sliding system. So it would be good to understand that just because I think that, you know, we would be offering you some quality control review with the best intentions, right, because, you know, at the end of the day, It's all about that in this house. It's so minimal, so clean, so conceptually almost perfect. But I think it would be nice to be able to see it with that level of detailing, which I'm sure you've got to get to that level of detailing anyways for somebody to build this house. Of course. I'm not asking you to

Clips and, yeah. It's fascinating how that loads and how you inspect that through time, right? Yep. You're not proposing stone cladding.

But I think, yeah, it's a beautiful project. I think we're tending to feel like, you know, we're going to get this thing approved, but we would love to see the detailing and for you to come back to see the detailing. You know, and I think, you know, You've got to take it to the next level, right? I mean, do we agree on that? Yeah, I agree.

I'm just concerned that this incredible house, because I think it's incredible. I think it's great. I especially love those details, like when you zoom in there and you see that the way the glass is being kind of levered out about, you know, a couple of feet. And then when they move through, how do they do that? And then I look at the detail that you provided, and it's not that. It's actually a little six-inch reveal at the bottom. Right. So those are, you know, it's amazing that you see that glass box that is sort of floating. It's not even touching the slab on the top and in the bottom. Which is fantastic. The typical detail is bring the glass from floor to ceiling.

Those details are what makes this house special. But I want to be able to see that, yes, you're, you know, at the end, this house will look like that because I'm all for it. I love to see that house built. But if it's going to be built and it's not going to look like this, then what are we approving? What am I excited about? So I, you know, to me, it needs a little more attention to the detail. Not really technically. You don't need to come with shop drawings on how you built this because I think we know that all those products have NOA. The problem is drawing those products into the real proj

At this stage of your process, you're in schematics?

I think what we're asking you to do is maybe do some design development detailing. And come back, you know, for us to review that. I mean, you're not losing time because you've got to do that anyway. I see that we're tending to just say approve, but, you know, I think it would be irresponsible of our board to just say we trust you.

because we have no idea if you're going to succeed at this at this point, based on what we see.

Right. Have you worked yet with the structural engineer?

The reason I'm bringing it up, just you have a house that is, I don't know, 100 feet by 100 feet. It's a very large house.

And you have a donut cut out in the center. Right. And I don't see columns inside the house. And I'm like. Again, I'm nitpicking, but I want to make sure, I really love the project. I wish I could say, go for it today. But on the other side, I'm feeling like, come on, if we tell them go for it, we're going to see one of those houses that we approve all the time, and later on they're like a total disappointment. And I think this one has incredible potential. If you could just look at it a little further and and refine it a little bit and tell us, yes, this is how it would work, I feel very comf

What's with the curved pieces by the entrance? They appear in some drawings and in others they don't. You see those half moon right by the door?

Yeah. So, I mean, this section is so important because, you know, it will give us an insight on how – You transition from ceilings to what appears to be floor-to-floor glass. You know, how does that look? I mean, all of that will affect the final impact of this approach. Yeah. That mezzanine, I still don't get it. I guess the only way to understand it is to see a section and see, I mean, is it habitable mezzanine or is it just like a crawl area? I mean, I'm not getting it, right, because I can't even see the floor-to-floors and everything. Maximum height is to the primary roof, right? Yes. And

And then, you know, most of the times you need to allow access to that roof for maintenance. Yes. Right, Mr. Building Official? Isn't that required? So in this case, could they have like an access hatch from the inside of the house to go up to the roof? I mean, I don't know what your plans are.

Let me ask you another one. It was really the first thing that I noticed when I was reviewing the house. Sure. And you have these three layers, this system, the folding doors, the sliding doors, and your railing, which is a lot. So to me, the way I read it, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that your folding door system has no NOA possible. to cover this, and then you have to put a sliding door inside. Because why would you put folding doors if you already have sliding glass doors?

Then I'm not understanding why the sliding glass door. Because if you have NOAs with the folding doors, right, when you have it closed, you're protecting the house. When you open it up, means that you have to open your sliding glass doors. So now you have to open a completely – I don't understand the rationale.

But in this case, they're not louvers. It's glass. It's the same. What I'm saying is, you know, I'm being, now I'm being a little subjective because if they want to put five layers, that's up to them, right? So, but it just, I don't find the rationale because you have folding doors. If your folding doors have NOA, you open it or you close them. That's what they're meant for. Right. Their sliding glass door,

I was just saying, could you share the reasoning?

They like the idea that you could fold it, leave it open, and still have a layer of protection.

I don't think that's something that is going to go against you. Because if you want to have five layers, as I said before, of course, that's up to you guys. So it's not going to change the way I think about the house. Because then that's just how you're building the house. We're concerned about the look of the design, right?

So that's what you want. Those corners have no aluminum. There's nothing there. This system, there's going to be some aluminum in those corners. Right.

I think a concern would also be the glass spec on the sliding system versus the glass spec on the folding system. Are you intending that to be the same spec?

Right, but the glass and a sliding system...

Mm-hmm. So the challenge in asking you to come back, right, is, like Jose said, this is a very nice design intention. We're not sure that the intention is going to be followed through based on all these comments that we've given you. So it's kind of weird because we've approved projects that are not as interesting as this.

I mean, and again, I think you're going to have to do all this work anyways. Yeah. So it would be nice, I think, as we say, okay, come back to us to give you that chance to kind of come back and articulate a lot of these things better for us. I think that would be one of the conditions that I would put on this. And do we have any comments from neighbors?

Is there lighting integrated? Happy with the trash cans. So you can make this available to the architect?

I mean, so this resident really pays a lot of attention, has a lot of sensibilities and all that. concerns typically are the same, you know, and she's consistent. She just wants a better project. I think, you know, the point about this being a three-story house, I mean, by definition, it is not, right? By building code and zoning definition, it is not.

Just by looking at it, just getting a sense of it, it looks like it's less than 30% of the floor below. And that's what the Florida Building Code will consider. And if it goes above 30%, but I'm just looking at it, they do the math.

So it might very well be a mezzanine, and if it's a mezzanine, you have all the right. It's not a three-story home. To me, as long as it meets the 30%, and that's your baby. That's what we need.

The four walls containing that mezzanine are solid.

Yeah, so look, eventually we're going to have a section that explains this. Yeah.

And also, you know, we would like to kind of see the way the structure really performs because there seem to be a few columns missing to support all these layers of concrete, flooring, and so on. But, yeah, I mean, so it's an amazing project, and I think we could take a vote and see where we are. Got to open it up to public comment as well.

Public comments, yes, indeed. Yes, anyone in the public that wants to speak? Just state your name and I suppose your address as well.

Okay, so we have your concern about a security fence. Is there all around like a five-foot fence? I think five feet is the maximum, right? Yeah, so you have a section showing that there is a wall all the way around the perimeter. So, yeah.

Right, so that answers the security fence question. Then on the parking side, your concern is the day-to-day parking or like say when Amazon shows up with their truck to deliver a package, where do they park? Park on the street, typically. Okay. So I don't know if the architect wants to...

If your soil is here and the water is here, this is coming.

All right, then you got a shadow question about, you're on the south side, right? Yeah. So I don't know if you want to make a statement about shadows. Yeah, yeah, from the south, the sun comes usually from the south side, so mostly the shadows will be provided.

The sun comes out of the east, sets on the west. That's pretty good. Always in a solidly direction. So your house is the one that will create a shadow. Air property.

And I think also the design increased the setback, right, from what's required, right? So you've got increased setbacks. So as per zoning, every foot that we come in, we have to go up. So, I'm sorry, every foot we go up, we have to come in. So this is actually the normal setback right here. Right there, yeah.

So to avoid the wedding cake effect, basically you did the second story setback all the way down. Exactly. Zoning already covered that. Yeah. Yeah, so drainage, in terms of the way the site drains, your civil engineer has designed this thing to meet all the codes, basically water retention on site. You have retaining walls that really don't allow water from this site to go into your property. So it should all be good, except in a storm surge, Category 6 event. I hope you evacuate. There should be some water. All right. You're satisfied with the...

Well, so, yeah, we're going to take a vote and articulate our suggestion of moving forward in one way or another. Okay. Thank you. So we're done with public comments. So now further, any other questions that we have? We're good. We made all our comments. So if I were to state that we're going to be not voting to approve, we're going to ask the applicant to come back as soon as they can with further detailing and articulation to the concern of Sort of the edge canopy system, the integration of the slider versus the folding doors. I mean, that's kind of weird. I think you need to study that a li

Well, I just want to make sure that a – A clear section is cut north-south and east-west so that we can really tell what's going on with the mezzanine, what goes above your elevator. You most likely are going to have an elevator over right. You're showing the equipment, but I'm not sure about... I didn't see the elevator over right, and I think in the section you would clearly show that. So if you could cut one north-south and one east-west, really would go a long way. And then the little details that you might think or someone might think are small are very powerful to your design. So if you

And I know we've discussed about the deliverables for these packages before. It would be nice to always require more detailed external renderings and just sort of these sort of global renderings where you're standing 80 feet away from the house and that's what we get. It would be nice to be able to get into the entry area, the terraces, kind of feel the way the building behaves at that level with some additional renderings.

This house has a lot of really nice volumes that we're not seeing because we're seeing it all flat. But really, if you look at the entry area that is recessed, and then you have a change of materials that sort of wraps around on at least one side, I'm not sure if on both sides, And then it becomes glass again. Those details, we're not seeing them. A nice three-dimensional. Nothing negative about the project, believe me. I'm just hoping that your project turns out to keep on repeating myself to what I see here.

I want to repeat it again. I'm not asking for you to come with an engineering set of documents. I hope you understand that. I'm asking you to be able to be more realistic to the architectural design. You and I and all of us here know that the system that you're drawing is not going to give you that look that they want. So if that's what they want, More power to them. Just find a way of doing it. If it exists. I don't have a problem with that. I think it's great. But it's just not going to happen today. Right. Yeah. Right.

We would like to have a full-scale mock-up.

This house is that important, okay? Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. So we're going to move to defer. As soon as you get back, you're going to need some time, and now you've got the holidays and so on. So I don't know if you're back for January or February. I mean, you've got to do this work anyway. So, I mean, we're tending to say yes. But we're saying we want to participate a little bit more with you and understand how you're detailing and sort of things getting recalibrated and aligned and so on. And I think that's a deferment, no condition. I mean, it's just to come back with more detail.

Okay. Is there a second? Second. Okay. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. So we're on track. Thank you. Appreciate your patience with us today. And you're welcome to download the full package from the city portal as well so you have everything that... you care to see. Thank you so much. And we will meet again in January, right?

Well, she doesn't have to come back for the 8th. She's going to work through Christmas with a lot of details, it seems.

But, yeah, I think the house will benefit from that extra level that will give you more feedback once we see that. But it will be good to redo those renderings, trying to simulate your glazing system as accurately as possible. That will be wonderful. So thank you.

General public, okay. All right, so we're good. All right, meeting adjourned? Good? All right, happy holidays to everyone.