Architectural Review Board - Regular Meeting

roll call present present very well bring the meeting to order we pledge allegiance

I just have a quick question on your conditions, just for the record, because sometimes it's not clear. Applicants are not required to submit a full-blown landscape architecture package that complies with all the standards to get ARB approval. They submit that before they get building permits? Yes, they do. That's the first condition. For the review of the Board, you know, it's never a requirement. That's something that we could discuss as a Board if we ever want to suggest that we are given a full landscape architecture package for consideration during ARB. It's not a requirement right now as

Okay. All right. And I think you're also just saying you need to meet minimum FEMA, which is FEMA plus one. Which seems to be what the applicant is doing. Just for the record, the applicant is complying with minimum FEMA standards, FEMA plus one.

Take to the podium. Identify yourself for the record.

Okay, could you say that slower and clearer, please?

Are you the licensed architect? No. Who is the licensed architect? Alfredo Gamara is the licensed architect. Correct. He's acting as architect of record.

Design studio. Okay. Okay. Does the board have any other questions of her concerning that? No? Okay. All right, so give us your presentation.

Do you have the specifications of how the paint is applied?

This sample is applied to what material? Like a porcelain?

Okay. Are you done with your presentation?

Okay. Can we start with some board questions? Do we do public input first? Yeah? Okay. Let's do public input. I put it on your desk. You should have the letters. I'm going to read this into the record. Several items stand out immediately to me. This is from a neighbor. Her last name is Logan. She lives here in the village. The height of the building exceeds the height limit by five feet. That's her projection. Just for the record, the building official wrote his report, and it seems like according to the zoning guidelines, review the houses in full compliance of all zoning regulations, includi

Yeah, so the way the method is represented in the presentation is in compliance with zoning at this stage, subject to final review during permitting, but it seems like it's headed in the right direction, it seems. Of course, we're not a zoning review board, so, you know, we just have to accept that. The setback invasion to the second level is even more significant, 11 feet in some areas. So there is in Ball Harbor a regulation where you need to step the massing in the second floor or reduce the exposure to the side yards. That has been reviewed also by the zoning reviewer and the houses in com

So tree number nine is an oak and tree number two and one? Six.

And the landscape designer has tried to maintain or relocate some of these trees and that has not worked out?

I mean, the trenches right now are basically over your property line or on the side yards.

You're trying to maintain the grade as it is so you don't have to do retention rolls. There seems to be in the front yard a lot of room for an oak tree to be relocated to. I mean, significant area that would allow that oak tree to be relocated there. I don't know if that's something that other members of the board would encourage.

Also, leaving the oak tree, number six, in its current location, Does that not work? Did you check that with an arborist if the house becomes too close to the tree?

I mean, I think civil engineering is easy. So let me see.

Yeah, and I think that you're very early on, you know, to reorient utilities and things like that if it means that you could keep a tree on site. May I ask the building official if there's any experience here recently where the village has voted or discussed the idea of trying to maintain tree canopy, like oak trees and all that, whenever possible? I mean, is there like a mandate? Because some communities have that as a restriction, kind of like a deed restriction that comes with a property to try to maintain and preserve tree canopy whenever possible. I don't know.

Do you have an arborist that reviews these things or a landscape architect on behalf of the city?

Yep. So let me just finish off reading this neighbor's comments. Of course, the oak tree is a big concern. She's saying that the house needs a lot of landscaping to soften it up a bit, you know, which some of our favorite landscape architects love to do that. We're always concerned that the architecture is behind the trees. But some people like that look, you know. So as an architect, I always have to be open-minded about that. Once again... too much house for the size of the lot. That's the opinion of this neighbor. Again, for the record, the project has been reviewed by the zoning reviewer.

You can't drive to the party, I see. So this is a walkable community. Yeah, okay. So that solves that problem. So, yeah, so in terms of the architecture and its stylistic compliance with the regulations, is there any comments from the board on that?

This metallic finish on this house in the method that you're describing, right? I would consider it to be experimental, which means this is South Florida. It's very tropical. There's a lot of moisture. We don't know how this is going to perform over time. And it's a significant aspect of this house. So let's say... If the experiment fails, what happens? I mean, besides the golden trim, right, which seems to be something the client really likes, and we see it in your sample, right? There's a golden piece here. So we see the amount of gold quality.

So these are anodized aluminum windows that will be anodized to be like a goldish color.

And a more expensive solution, but that's the aesthetics that the client has.

In the ideal world, I would like to have the power as a board here to ask for a mock-up at some point that is installed on the building before the entire house is treated with this, right? So you don't commit to the entire thing and... and the board could even go and see the, do like a site review of the application in a mock-up setting. I mean, that would be ideal because there's so much of this in this house that if we approve it without those kinds of restrictive criteria. I know this is probably unprecedented that the Board has ever approved anything and then requested a mock-up to be insp

This is not like a going cheap concern. It's more like, okay, stucco cracks. So what happens when the stucco cracks? when you have such a metallic? I mean, how do these things behave? You know, because it's typically not in the nature of the materiality to apply a metallic product over stucco. I mean...

Yeah, I mean, because even stucco, we need to do like the stucco control joints, you know, for it to move and crack and control the cracking and things like that. So it's like, it's a whole material science concern that I'm bringing up. And it sounds complicated. And I know that the village probably is saying, don't complicate things too much, Mr. Borden. But, you know, in the spirit of really building homes that are one-of-a-kind and very valuable and maintain their beauty through their life, that's the concern. It's like this is unprecedented, right? So you're testing us with this idea.

There could be a one-of-a-kind disaster. And that's kind of what we're trying to avoid, right? It's a unique disaster. Go see this. You know, it will be a drive-by experience. So I don't know. I don't know how the rest of the board is feeling about these finishes. I mean, I'm primarily concerned about the gold and the sort of metallic bronze. There's two aspects of it, as I see it. One is sort of does it look happy? Does it look nice? Does it look elegant? Does it look like it's enhancing the character of the architecture of the neighborhood? The other thing is how is it going to perform? It's

I have my little concerns here, too. Okay. So, you know, you come up with this, you know, amazing, expensive material that you want to use, and then the base of the building is this plastic cladding. That is very, very, it contradicts the value of what you're doing on top. So this is...

Would like... Oh, it says wood-like. Is that plastic?

So in the rear, it transitions from the metallic paint.

So where is that brown material there at the base of the front facade? Which one is that one here? The bronze. The bronze? The liquid metal bronze. The entire house basically is liquid metal. Oh, okay. Except in the rear.

Does the slide control have a laser pointer?

I was like, I can't get close to it. I give up on the pointer. Yes, so this area here, is this where you have the...

So at some point the bronze, the metal bronze comes and it stops... And then all of this is plastic. And that's basically a value engineering issue.

So hold it right there. So this is the front. So that metal finish goes like this?

And then over there, how do you make that?

For next time, color code that. Apply some colored lines, you know. Okay. Graphics are nice, but that would communicate that intention better. Yeah. So then it's a mix of the metallic that we primarily see.

I thought the mic was picking that up. I don't know how sensitive they are. Okay. So, yeah, so basically we're understanding now how your metallic finish wraps around and then it continues with the acrylic, and that is really more of a choice of, you know, putting the dollars in the front where it really matters. and then transitioning to the plastic, which is, you know, a product that some of us are kind of allergic to in the architecture world here in South Florida. Everybody's using it. I mean, it's used in the plastic, acrylic. I mean, it's like McDonald's, Home Depot's. I mean, everybody

That's the point that I'm trying to make. I mean, this is this house. You're trying to make it very, very slick and fluid and so on with this material that you're using. And then probably half the house gets this treatment that if it was me, I mean, I'll stucco the house because, you know, this material is really – Being overused now, you know, you see it, like I said, in Burger Kings, you see it all over the place. And this house, you know, you're making a house that is a special home or a special home in the future. So to me, I don't know if we can recommend to reconsider the material in the

You know, from my standpoint, It's how that material is going to weather and so on is a risk that you as the architect are putting on the client. So myself, I love to experiment with materials, and this is what you're doing here, I think. It's not very visible, so I'm glad you're bringing it out, but it's something between you and your client in terms of the metallic. However, I'm very opposed, but it's up to you. But you mentioned beauty. One of the words that you used was beauty, and that material, the plastic, I hate to Call it plastic, but it is plastic. At the end of the day, it's really

So they're not fixed storefronts? Okay. And the other question I had was in the rear. You showed a stair... a spiral stair to the roof. Is that part of the design?

I understand that. In my firm, we have done things like this, similar. If you need access, there's many different ways of having access to the mechanical that are very simple. But when I see something that's cultural, it lends me to believe that in the future, there's an intention for the rooftop to be...

There's a lot of issues with roofs that will be used later on for events and neighbors will complain and it becomes a big issue in a lot of neighborhoods. So, you know, to me, I'm concerned with if there's a future intent to use this roof for something

So I just – Yeah, so, I mean, I've seen stairs like that in Mexico, right? But it seems like people don't fall there. So no railings, no attorneys to sue you if somebody falls and something happens. So, yeah, so that stair is suspicious, you know, in terms of intent. It is a sculptural element. So, I mean, you know, you're having fun with it. It doesn't seem to be a utilitarian rooftop access stair. It seems to be something more. And in my understanding, the village allows you to access the roof and have a terrace up there if you wish with a glass rail and so on. So I'm not sure what the inten

In other words, if they want to use the roof, They can put railings. They can do it. So it's not an issue if your client has future intention to use it. They can actually request for the roof to be accessible. It's not a problem. I'm not bringing a problem.

Let me just say, it's not about comfort, it's about code compliance. Yeah, yeah. And also about clarity of intention, right? Which I think, for me, that's important, you know, because otherwise, you know, why would we be giving this so much attention? So if this stair is a utilitarian stair to have, you know, mechanics go and maintain the condensing units in the rooftop... That's okay, but it has to have that purpose, and you need to address the railing issue because right now it has no railings. Okay. So that's that. And then if you do, I mean, what happens, these houses, right, beyond this p

Right, but the generator is a concentrated load, you know, but in general, if you're going to have access, you know, how much is the terrace, and how much of that slab is designed for that weight, and all those things, right? Let's be on our scope here as a board. I'm just sort of giving you some free advice, okay? So going back to materiality, because that seems to be a big trouble here for some of us. I mean, are we okay with the coloration with the golden trim and the bronze? I mean, outside of its performance, are we okay with the aesthetics of it?

So let's talk about the fountain and the intention and the detailing of the fountain. So we kind of see it in the rendering if we look closely that there's water falling over that metallic finish, right? And that's kind of like a cascade, a vertical surface.

Okay. So there are different things to be concerned about there. First of all, on a windy day, that water is going to go everywhere right now because it's just kind of just coming down, you know, it's like. Gravity is not attaching it too much to the wall. You know, you've got a very slick surface. There's going to be, you know, possibly mold, you know, associated with this. It's very humid depending on solar exposure. You know, these sort of mold conditions may appear in a condition that doesn't really want mold, right? You want this to be clean and slick and perfect looking all the time. And

I mean, I see this sort of pregnant shape here. That's what I see. Right?

Yeah, so then there should be a note there that says go see landscape plan so we could understand the fountain better.

Yes, yeah, because you're going to be holding water and then... Yeah, so your rendering is sort of intending to show these streaks like a fountain, and the client wanted a feature there, and that's what you're doing, even though the detailing is not there. We have to assume how this thing works. Yeah, so I question how that's going to perform in the future. I caution you that it may not be... I can see there's an arrow in the landscape plan that says water feature by other, but the arrow is actually pointing inside the garage. So somebody needs to manage arrows a little bit more carefully. So

Yeah, we're not fountain experts, but then, you know, we know enough to respect that as its own design problem, right, because, you know, it depends on how it drips and when it drips and if it's a windy day and how you contain it, how you control it.

Let's talk about this because, you know, I think we got to leave the detailing up to them. She's taking a big risk. The owner, God knows what he's thinking. I think in our experience, and we've been around a while, that wall, it's going to be very difficult to make it work. You know, the wind, the exterior conditions, you know, that water, typically it should be probably, you're probably intending, what, maybe an eighth inch of water just rippling? Or are you intending washing water or an inch of water?

We understand. We understand. Let me stop you there. And, Mr. Gomez, nobody here is detailing anything. We're just sharing our concerns that this thing is not carefully thought through. She's experimenting with so much.

This house could be an incredible success. Incredible.

Yeah. So all we could do here is sort of say, hey, this could be trouble. This could have a performance issue. And it's the primary facade. Ideally, it would be required by mandate by the city that if it's such an important feature that we need to see everything about that fountain. We need to see fully executed fountain drawings that illustrate how this is going to work and how it will be functional and have your fountain experts come and explain it to us and all that because it's right in the front of this house. If this thing doesn't work, You know, I think it's a tragedy, right? Because th

Doing little vertical pieces, you know, and achieving these sort of segmented pieces that give you the roundness.

Can I ask you a question? Do we have the rights or can we request that certain items be brought back to the board for review to see what is the reality of this fountain? Can we ask for them to resubmit or to submit shop drawings that we can say, yes, this works or not? Or you just want to leave it up to...

Well, I think what you're suggesting is that we provide an approval with conditions, and these conditions would request that they come back with certain things as a follow-up presentation. Because, you know, the fountain is a separate permit, right? We know that's a separate permit. So since it is a separate permit, could we request that that fountain, since it's such a critical element, be brought to us with its full, you know, engineered solution and details? I mean, I would, I mean, I'm super curious because I'm also excited about new materials as you are to go and see where this has been a

Now, she is applying, I'm glad you reminded, in a segment of the facade where she transitions from the metallic to the plastic, she is using a plaster finish as well.

So, Susan, how do we do that? How do we give them the ability to continue to go into technical construction permit drawings? and still give us a chance to review some of these specialty finishes and details before they have a final, final.

Some of these things are going to require time and it's going to delay them, right? So if we approve it with these conditions, then we put more responsibility on the building official and his team.

I think the norm in situations like this is for you also to provide the specification of these things, not just a pretty sample. Okay. Because at the end of the day, it's all about the chemistry of that and understanding that to make us feel more comfortable.

I think it's the same thing is what he's saying. They don't have to go further than a shop drawing to present it to us. But I think the feeling is, reality is, we feel that that fountain might not work unless there's some serious engineering done to it. they can also opt out and say, I don't want the fountain. I don't know how strongly you as the architect or the owner feels about the fountain. If you feel that is something that is not that important to the project,

You know, and you brought up a comment that, again, part of all this testing, you have this... cladding this metal paint and so on you have a garage door that corner obviously the rendering doesn't show it uh it could look very different than what you're imagining how everything here is going to be so monolithic and most likely it's not going to be as monolithic as we all would like to think. You have that garage door, you have the door to the house, you have glass. It's sort of a difficult rendering to understand because it's so dark in there.

I think, look, you're venturing into a lot of I want to do and I think I'm imagining and all that. Yeah, one of them. I don't mind accepting this, but I'm telling you, I wish you luck with the success of the house because there's a lot of testing here that you're doing that...

Now, Mr. Gomez, I think that I don't see how you feel about this because, you know, we do this as volunteers, right? For the benefit of this beautiful community to make sure that we try to bring some quality control to the built environment. If we request that we get to review. shop joints, as a secondary action. The first action is that we approve it with these conditions. We like to review shop joints for this or for that or for this, right? Which primarily is because they're kind of untested experimental issues that we like to learn more about them. So several things happen. First of all, y

You just mentioned going to see it later on and coming back. If we approve this today, unless we put a condition, we can't do anything after we come back next month.

No, no, go and see it where it's been. I mean, to evaluate it, it's an evaluation period, the same way we would evaluate shop joints. So, for example, the Board of Architects in Coral Gables, and I don't want this to ever be like the Board of Architects in Coral Gables because they meet, I think, like once a week. And they take like 60 applications, so I don't think that this wants to be that. But they do follow up with some details, and they do request people to come back with follow-up articulated detailing on things. like sharp joints and so on. And they have a more expeditious, they kind o

Okay, so we don't differ a lot, but here we have an owner that didn't really take an effort to be with us here today and explain his passion for this. We have an architect of record that we have no idea where he exists on Lincoln Road. We have a designer that is using his license to get this thing approved. There are a lot of things here that make me feel uncomfortable about these processes, okay? And if we want to turn this into a Mickey Mouse, you know, review board, I'm out, okay? I'm serious about what I do. I'm not suggesting that we require anything scientific. I'm just saying that they

That's not unreasonable. Yeah, fair enough. So, you know, again, when the facade has elements that are supposed to perform in a very, you know, untraditional way that we're not used to seeing, I mean, we've all seen a lot of fountains, right? But this one is unique, you know, and then it's over this sort of metallic paint over stucco. I mean, it has a lot of things. You know, I would like to understand how your waterproofing consultant is going to deal with all these things, you know, how that gets done. So, again, it's sort of A challenge to come back, but Susan is sort of saying you have to

Okay, but this is a question. Are the conditions, are we in the conditions? Can we request that it's brought back to the board? For the shop drawings? For the shop drawings.

I don't want to say it, but that's the actual word. But there's two conditions that I see. And the condition is the paint, finish, and they've got to bring back the water feature. Right. Be straightforward. That way you can, you know, the bulk of the house, you'll be able to move it forward. You'll be able to do your construction documents and so on. But those two items... we'll have to come back through.

It gives them time because these are all sort of construction document coordination items. So they got time, you know. Not a lot of time if you want a building permit quickly, because you won't approve a building permit until we review those shop joints and they satisfy us.

It's kind of similar. You have item 15, perimeter landscaping required by certificate of appropriateness must be maintained by property owner. I mean, it could be something that gives them time, but, you know, it's integrated into the overall construction document, so it should be. at a time that is not too late, right? If somehow...

Prior to building permit. Yeah. Prior to building permit. Priority of time, if you say prior to building permit.

Yeah. Do you understand that condition? Do you have any comments on it?

It's not just a shop door. You're going to see that that detailing is going to affect the architecture of that wall. At the end of the day, it's not going to be a flat wall where you're going to apply a paint and you're going to have water cascading on it. There's details that are going to affect the architecture. You might have to recess that wall, you know, half an inch. Or you might have to do something so that the water stays and the water is not going all over the place. So, you know, it's part of the architecture. It's not just simply a shop drawing that we're requesting.

I think we got clarity, so we can take a vote now.

Submit further detail and shop drawings. further detail and shop drawings for the water feature. Now about the paint, a kind of how do we address the paint part. And this will be prior to a building permit.

So the burden is on the applicant to give us an understanding where we could learn more about these finishes and provide that information to the building official who will communicate it to each of us. And we may have a period of, say, maybe three or four months to go and visit and then report back in one of our meetings what we learned in that visit of the material.

Prior to whenever that meeting is scheduled. Right. We're trying to do it prior to. We would have to. Exactly. Yeah. Now, how do we know who's going to give us the location of this? The applicant.

I'm fine. How soon are you going to do permit documents on this? You already done?

So this is just a sharp joint that you're doing proactively and bringing it back. So we could review it as soon as you bring the sharp joint. I mean, yeah. They should bid it on time.

But then the paint, I guess, we need as soon as possible to know where to go see this. Right.

There's more complexity to the issue, you know. But to me, it's just, you know, remove the fountain. How is that going to perform as a finish over stucco?

Now, we've all seen, just to give you some facts, these sort of dripping waterfalls that we've used in projects that has like a simple arch, and then you get these little droplets. So that doesn't rely on a surface. It's just sort of water in front of the surface. So there are all kinds of ways that you could solve this. Right now, to me, the concern is, is it really coming down the wall? Is it in front of the wall? You know, and when you bring the wind factor, where does it go? How do you contain it so it doesn't become a concern?

And what happens when he doesn't polish it? You could see it white instead of the black. That's the calcium buildup thing.

Well, the metal, we'd like to see where it's been applied and how successful it is, just for us to see it again prior to obtaining a building permit.

Correct. I would add to that or confirm that trees will be relocated within the site.

Yeah, I mean, because I think that's the objective is to try to give those oak trees a new life in a different place that doesn't ruin all the other amenities that the owner would like to accomplish.

So that would be an arborist report, no? You want a report or a letter?

And before we take a vote, I just want a friendly suggestion. Please look into that plastic material and think about it. That's just a friendly suggestion.

And secondly, it seems like some of your screening fencing for equipment is noted as being PVC?

Do we know if that's allowed in the village, PVC fencing, Home Depot specials?

Yeah. I mean, the only thing that I see in communities that don't allow them is that perhaps the way they perform through time, they kind of fall apart and so on. They're not as durable. You know, it's an aluminum solution, for example. Like coal gables doesn't allow wood fencing because, you know, they decay and they deteriorate fast, you know. So it's a question of material durability and whether the village allows it or not. Okay.

It depends on what color you use, what color it's going to have in plastic. What's the color in the PVC?

No. Okay. I mean, it's just a general concern about our industry and how things get represented. And, you know, there is no requirement for licensing to present to a design review board that I'm aware of. So a designer could come and present to us, but she cannot sign and seal these documents and get a building permit. But for my taste, I would like to see everybody involved in these presentations.

I don't know that the city is going to mandate that, but okay. A lot of trouble here today, so it's supposed to be good trouble, but it depends how you see it. So let's take a vote. Motion passed.

I second. Okay. All right. So. Now vote. All those in favor, say aye. Aye. All right. So we got three votes out of three members today. You have an approval. Thank you for tolerating us, and we'll see you soon.

We do it a week after is, oh, shucks. I'm in San Diego with that AIA conference.

I'll call them up and just... Do you want to test both the 18th and the 25th?

Thank you. Well, we bring the meeting to closure then.