Town Commission - workshop

weird okay all right so uh it is 704 um august 26 2026 we are town hall for the second of two meetings today this is the budget workshop um uh if the town it is 704 if the town clerk could call the roll okay mayor allison dennington here vice mayor terry cronin here commissioner anna butler here commissioner tim reed here commissioner sherry corey here town manager amy smith here finance manager jennifer kerr here

Okay. We will stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance. All right, I will read the, we'll have a moment of silence. Okay, I will read the civility pledge. The commission and the town staff of the town of Melbourne Beach pledged to conduct all public discourse in a civil manner. The mayor and all members of the commission will treat one another with courtesy and respect and ask the public to do the same towards the commission, each other and towards staff. We will be respectful of one another even when we disagree. We will direct all comments toward the issues and we will avoid personal attacks.

Why don't you just let them comment after we talk about the budget?

Okay, so because that, you know, yeah, because you know what happens, like, yeah, what happens is you can't comment on the thing on the item, but okay. All right, so we will allow people to comment before we adjourn on the budget itself, even though we're not, we won't be having a vote because it's workshop. So confine, wait for the comment period then. We will not adjourn until allowing a comment period, but we'll go ahead and start. Okay.

I'm going to motion to adjourn at 9 because I've got to be somewhere.

Yeah, I think we, I mean, there were some, I think we ought to let people comment, but if you want to make them late. Does anyone have anything to comment on the budget right now? Well, seeing none, okay, maybe it won't be an issue. I will turn it over to Ms. Marie Smith. Oh, and before I do that, there are five walk-on document edition updates that I'm going to kind of make them in an order that that way it will make sense. The first walk-on document is a two-page document. All of these will be uploaded to the website and they are on the public table. One of them, it's not, it's a two-page do

Okay, I'll get through the, just say what they are, that way we get through it, and then I will let you, if you want to explain. So there is a, walk-on one is a two-page document, which finance will explain in a minute. And then I labeled these, so then walk-on, walk-on, Walk-on two and walk-on three are basically they match the packet, they sort of match the packet but they are corrections which are explained by walk-on one and they're two different documents because one is the rollback rate and one is the 4.6 rate. Walk-on three is another document that is paginated with, okay, good, paginat

It's the walk-on corrected figures that are walk-ons number three. 2 and 3 but side by side with 4.6 millage plus the rollback and then walk on 5 is a document I created it basically explains some objections that I have had related to our non-compliance with chapter 15 parallel columns and and there's been several meetings back and forth and there has been discussion and willingness, I believe, to fix these or discuss it, but they haven't been included. So these are sort of my public objections for the record. There's a cover page and then there are Seven attachments, each of which is describe

I need a moment with someone to come up and get all of this squared. Do you wanna take a minute break? Yes, yes.

Thank you. Okay, we're gonna take just a short recess just because these, it does get confusing when you have multiple ones and new ones. We'll take a recess, and then we will let the finance manager for the record kind of explain what these are. Actually, do you want to do that now on the record? Then we can recess, and we can...

I'll just leave my papers in order, so just hang on. I kind of followed... Yeah.

After the recess, we'll go to you, Ms. Kerr. Oh, no. We'll wait for the clerk. All right. We're back on the record. We're just going to wait for the clerk. She'll roll call us in. And then, Ms. Kerr, I'll turn it over to you so that you can explain to the public what some of these are. Okay. Could you roll call us in, town clerk?

It's just that two page. Yeah. And this is from that thing that I sent that. Correct.

Thank you. And walk-on two is the one that's the 4.6. It doesn't say 4.6 at the top, but when you look at the other one, you can identify it, and that one's walk-on three. It does say the rollback. So if y'all are looking at these, you're trying to figure out which, find the one that says rollback. So that one I labeled walk-on three. Okay, and then walk-on four is that new side-by-side. and that way if anybody were looking at the original packet two versus these new they'd be able to go oh they would also have the correct right and then we did make copies for the table and the town clerk will

And real quick, I do wanna point out that for the town going forward, this is something that is possible to be fixed because it's not in the charter, it's in the ordinances. So if we decided we didn't wanna do this, y'all can amend that chapter 15, those various ordinance provisions. to change them, to remove some of these things that aren't gonna be required by the upcoming statute, because the upcoming statute will actually require a bunch more, but Chapter 15 does require some other things that aren't required. It's amendable by ordinance, but it's in our ordinance, so it's not just ignorab

Okay, and for anybody who wants to, if y'all wanna look, if you'll look at this walk on five, we'll be on the website, on page 15, it kind of is a demonstration of what these additional columns would look like, it cites to the thing. So if anybody's like, what are they talking about? They could look at an example, page 15.

So monthly we have how much is spent in our commission paperwork. So every month... we know percentage-wise what we've budgeted and what we've spent. So those numbers just have to be put in this as well. So we've already been doing it, which doesn't that meet our code, Ryan, that we've been doing it every month? But it's not in the budget. But it is the budget.

I mean, the good news is we're getting close to the end anyway. So you'll you know, you have this in the estimated part that you have to estimate will be a bit easier because we're almost at the end. Whereas in May it would have been harder. But so.

They also put out data that's more specific to this region that's different than that. And the numbers are lower than what you cited. So it's more specific to the region we live in here.

Like the southeast? Could you give her the name? I think you brought it up last year.

I've provided the information to her previously. And then the other part of that is that if you don't really, I don't think, my position is you don't really just look at what the last month's number was. You're talking about the cost of living over the course of the year. It's really kind of like the median or the average of what those would be over the year. So I agree, which I believe is to be is around the last time I looked was about. 2.7%. So and then if you wanted to add on top of that, I think 1% is is reasonable. We're also, if you're looking, you have a chart here comparing us through

Yeah, so I'll just talk about it. That's what I'm talking. Yeah, if you look at the beachside communities, you're proposing the highest increase. And the average for Beachside is like three and a quarter percent.

I would like to point out, there's two projections in my 83-page walk-on document, attachment three and then attachment four. Attachment four is a 20-page document related to the last three years of town data, specifically from our budgets, and then it pulls every single Excel document of records from the FDLE, you can get them online, for every police department in the state, For the last three years, it has all of their PD, like what is it required to be a PD? It also has things like, and then of course has the local Brevard County, but it also has things like not just salary, but it has how

So I've sent these to you over the last three. No, no, no.

Could you move over that way? Because I don't think the camera shows where you're standing.

Wait, so you're saying that they lose it, and they can never, ever be compensated for it? Or does it accrue that they can be compensated for it?

Well, I believe that our comp time comparison, lots of discrepancies. Noted by the auditors that we weren't following it.

It pulls from what you reported to this FDLE, literally.

I'd like to address those really quick to explain. The data, and it is cited in here, is pulled directly from the FDLE website. The FDLE does a survey every year on a number of things. Every one of those surveys is on their website. You can pull 2025 and 2024, as well as the prior years. You go into the archive for 2023 and back. Everything in that is pulled from those Excel spreadsheets. which is stuff that every police department, including you, Chief Zander, would have reported to FDLE because that stuff gets reported from the agencies. Now, it is true that if you look at the way that those

I'm taking the information that you reported to FDLE and that's publicly available and it specifically states so people could go and look at that. There isn't a thing on there where you can say yes for one position or two but no for the other. It's just a yes or no. So yes, but that information is like the main information relates to other things which are explained in there. But you know i mean it's pulled directly from the information that you and other agencies reported for each year 2023 2024 2025 for the various list things uh as to coco beach coco beach and a bunch of other cities and th

Okay, but it is your job as the department over the people that would get the raises to try to advocate and make a case for the highest increase that you could get for them.

If I was advocating for that— Excuse me, you're interrupting me.

In 2030 or at the latest 2036, when the town goes bankrupt and we don't have a fire department or a police department, I'm gonna come to the meeting, I'm gonna say, it's been a long time, but I told y'all so.

Can I ask what does it cost if a new employee comes in in your department? What is that additional cost besides salary?

So we're paying somebody maybe $5,000 a year. But if they are not happy with their pay, it will end up costing us a minimum of $75,000 to replace that person.

So let's take this further. Marie, what does it cost for a staff person to replace them in our in our office? in your office, what does it? Can you give certain numbers or? What would it cost to replace somebody? Just kind of a rough estimate compared to what amount of money we're increasing our staff

It was $40,000 to replace the town manager's position.

A man Mary you've done an incredible amount of work here and I'm not really comfortable commenting on all this all this work at this point and you know I wonder if we could look restrict our comments to the package that we received so we you know I know all of us prepared and went through this budget and I know there's some changes that you made which I think is pretty cool. Right. But I I'm not prepared to talk on 81 pages.

No, I know. I know. I mean, I'm not going to restrict myself if something comes up, but I absolutely respect and understand it. Just the way it came about and I put it together was because of a bunch of some discussions behind the scenes where some things have been brought up particularly the parallel columns which was the most important thing and the feeling that we were getting so close to the end and i and i wasn't sure if it was ever going to be addressed because there was a response as to well we'll see what the commission whether they want to include it and i was like okay i need to crea

If these changes and improvements are made, are you open to voting for this? Because I think we have to think about, are we going to do the rollback? Are we going to keep the millage the same? You know, what's the feeling? We can't talk, the public doesn't know this, but we can't, we're restricted from talking to each other. So the only time we really get to talk to each other is up here, and sometimes it's not always nice. you know but you know we should we should have an idea this is the most important thing we do as a commission is pass this budget are you uh are you intimating that with im

when the next version comes out so that means there's a chance and no and then after that like for example the compensation one it does say at the end like this is what i would be willing to do it's a scale back so if we were to if you were to go back to the rollback rate right and those numbers

Yeah, I think we need to be at the rollback. Yeah, I mean.

I would not vote for 4.6 under any circumstances whatsoever.

But keeping it the same. 4.6. To keep it the same.

I would not vote for 4.6 or probably anything anywhere close to it. The rollback rate I would vote for? Possibly, once we have the rollback rate and all the figures and stuff, if we were to go over something slightly over that for some school. We don't need your vote. We're asking about the proposal. No, but to go anything over. We're asking about the proposal. No, anything over the rollback rate, you would need a fourth vote. So what I'm saying is you don't need my vote for the rollback. There is a chance that if we had all of the stuff and there was some small amount over the rollback rate that was tied to something specific, that that's where there might be some play. But it would require those specifics. But I would not vote for the 4.6 under any circumstances.

Well, first off, you're speaking as if you know how one is voting, that you have a tabulation of what you think the vote is already, which I find surprising.

I'm not talking about the mayor. I'm saying he... He said it about you, not him.

She certainly said that she wouldn't vote for the budget. She did. And she said it several times.

I'm not denying that. I heard her say that, too.

But you were speaking in terms of that you knew how the rest of the commission was going to vote. I have no idea. But I know that we only need three. The way you were speaking was that you did. We only need three votes.

OK. We only need three votes to do. So we don't need the mayor's vote.

I know what the vote requirement is for the rollback. I understand what that is. So how do you feel? How do you feel?

HOW DO I FEEL ABOUT WHAT? THE BUDGET. ARE YOU IN SUPPORT OF THE ROLLBACK OR ARE YOU WORKING THROUGH THIS AND YOU THINK YOU COULD KEEP IT THE SAME OR DO YOU WANT TO INCREASE THE MILLAGE RATE? WHERE DO YOU STAND?

I'VE VOICED MY THINGS THAT I'M NOT IN FAVOR OF IN THE BUDGET. IF YOU, LET'S TALK ABOUT ROLLBACK FOR A SECOND. SO WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FOR ROLLBACK IS THIS IS WHAT AFFECTS THE ADVALORUM REVENUE. AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE 4.6 AND GOING BACK TO THE ROLLBACK RATE IS A TOTAL OF $140 SOME DOLLARS, I THINK, IN ADVALORUM TAX. SO I KIND OF BELIEVE THAT, YOU KNOW, We could make up that $140,000. So if we make up that $140,000 in revenue, then we could essentially do the same budget that's presented at 4.6 at the rollback rate, correct? Are you following me?

So the rollback rate only that we're talking about only the ad valorem revenue that we get. So at 4.6 rate, you get a certain amount at rollback rate, you get a lesser amount through the tax. Well, that difference is about 140 some thousand dollars. All right. So if we were able to somehow, get that $140,000 of revenue, if we were able to generate that. We could essentially have the same budget, the same 4.6 budget, but only have the tax people at the rollback rate.

Yeah, I do. I have a couple thoughts on it. So I think in the parking money, I think we have that money. I think we have that money, and we could re...

The parking money that is locked up in those two special funds. And outside of what is... Do you want to share what you're mumbling? OUTSIDER, AFTER THOSE YOU ALLOCATE TO WHATEVER EXPENSES, THERE'S STILL EXTRA REVENUE THAT IS GENERATED AND TRAPPED IN THOSE FUNDS. IF WE UNTRAP THAT MONEY, I'M TRYING TO BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THE WORDS I USE BECAUSE I'M GETTING IN TROUBLE, BUT THE week that money could be added to the general fund and we could I think we could easily we could make up that a hundred and forty one thousand dollar difference we also have a pending we have this five hundred and eighty

And question that that amount is not actually being currently carried. on our like as uh so so that there's a 500 000 amount that we are entitled to or applied to fema but because of what it's not being carried as a as a revenue or income anywhere so it's not showing up but it's not our revenue until we have it we don't have it okay but we could put it as a revenue that we believe we will get how long we've been waiting

Yeah, and why it shows up on page 54, I don't understand.

17 correct 17. okay we're going on nine years yeah okay um so it's yeah but there's a bunch of cities who just recently got their irma money okay so we it's like that one is a weird one but that money is you know so if we we we could potentially put that in our revenue and say we do expect to get it it would be nice Because right now, it showed up before, but it's never actually been calculated. Say we didn't put in our revenue. Say that we file the paperwork and we actually get it. It would be $500,000 of revenue that we had never recorded that would go in our revenue, but...

that we had never counted in. So that's in addition to the parking funds, that is an additional. Yes.

You said it three times now. So YEAH, SO I MEAN, BUT I THINK THAT'S, THAT WOULD BE, WE COULD DO A LOT WITH THAT MONEY HERE IN TOWN, AS WELL AS BOLSTER OUR RESERVES SOME AS WELL. YEAH. BUT I THINK THAT THE PARKING MONEY COULD MAKE UP THAT GAP

So keep it at a rollback rate and then move the parking money into the general fund?

You have numbers in there. It's not the, I don't think it's the total amount. It doesn't zero it out.

So I haven't seen, had an opportunity to see the rollback look at it yet. But I got to believe it's pretty close. I mean, the way you have it right now, the way you have transferred all those parking salary costs into like fund 172, basically it shows like at the end of the year, the fund is down to like $20,000. So then the following year, it's gonna be upside down. It's it's unsustainable to do that. It'll get you through one year, but then it's unsustainable You then you're back then you will be in the general fund for sure to to do even the things that you were trying to get covered with m

My position has always been that we don't do that, that we don't be using it for salaries like we have been. My point was I wasn't following the logic that was being used to do that. It seemed random.

I'd like to address that. I was on the commission, it was when Adam Meyer was on the commission, when Chief Zander requested that we add additional officer. At the time, they wanted two officers. Instead, this whole can we afford it, is this even necessary was discussed with the five commissioners that included Adam Meyer at that time, my first year, and I believe that the vote was only for one and only because we found the money from parking but if it hadn't come from parking I don't believe that that addition of an officer that we had never had in the whole history of the town would have bee

I MEAN, I'VE GONE AND REVIEWED THE OTHER MUNICIPALITIES' BUDGETS, PROPOSED BUDGETS, AND THEIR PAST BUDGETS, AND THAT DO HAVE PARKING MONEY. SO IN SATELLITE BEACH, FOR THE INSTANCE, THAT THEY, IN THEIR PARKING FUND, THEY ALLOCATE SOME MONEY FOR IMPROVEMENTS OR WHATEVER THAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO IN THAT PARK OR THAT PARKING AREA THAT SERVED THE serves that parking area and then they, whatever is not budgeted to be spent in that year, it goes into the general fund. And Cocoa Beach does the same, very similar thing.

I remember what I was gonna say. When we get the updated budget the next time, and it does include all these parallel columns, I mean, like if there's those parallel columns on the parking revenue, because it'll be what we budgeted, what we thought we were gonna get for those two areas, what have we gotten so far what do we estimate left to get because those actual because the parking you know it does kind of vary and we have in the we have raised the rates which then we like two different times or whatever but it um it caused our at like after the budget it caused our actual what we're gettin

Green and the mayor are saying that they're there in support of the rollback rate, but with some possible moving of some funds. I'd love to hear what commissioner Corey commissioner Butler had think about this because if everybody's moving towards the rollback and I think we've accomplished something in this workshop.

really stop and I trust what you're doing this is your expertise and That's that's the way I will vote My turn Well Seventy five thousand dollars was taken out of the parking fund and put into the general fund But what I'd like to point out is that the rollback, if you look at page 52, there is no money, period, for stormwater. The actual total expenses for stormwater for last year and it's a lot more than zero, and it's a lot more than what the parking funds make. So you're talking about nothing for stormwater, which is one of the biggest issues with the residents. Yes, that bond may get pass

I'm sorry, I have the floor. There's nothing in here also to fix the elevator in the building. I don't even know if that's legal. Our fire chief could address that. I don't know that it's legal to have an unoperable elevator in a municipal or a government building because it does not meet ADA. How can you have no money in the budget for elevator that is in dire need of repair and have just spent all that money to fix the second floor and what, now nobody can get up to it in an elevator? I don't think that's legal. Our attorney and our fire chief can point that out whether or not I'm correct, b

You're not supposed to address the issues and not any individual commissioner. I'm addressing your... You have repeatedly said you?

You have repeatedly said that you're not going to vote for this budget.

Point of order. Do not address me or Tim or anyone else.

Then why did you bring... Address the issues, ma'am. Why did you put this up here?

We're going to take a recess so that she can control herself. We are recessed.

Point of order. Point of order is rejected. I would like a vote. I would like a vote on the point of order.

So the point of order is loss of quorum. Not loss of quorum, but loss of decorum. Loss of decorum.

No, a recess is not votable. We're recessed.

I'll tell you what it is. Point of order, you pulled the point of order. You raise it promptly at the moment the breach occurs.

You are illegally having, I'm not going to engage. Ryan can speak, but we are recessed.

If you call point of order, there's a system that you have to do.

Recessed. Look it up. Marie, is Ryan around? Go ahead.

You could get on the phone with the vice mayor. No, we're not on the record. We're recessed. So if you're going to speak to the vice mayor, just call him on the phone. Y'all can talk. We're recessed for 10 minutes.

Mayor, let's reconvene the meeting. Let us proceed.

All right, we're back on the record. We took a recess because of the repeated failure and violation of our rules about decorum, and Commissioner Corey continued arguing and addressing comments not to the issue, so I will remind you again, Commissioner Corey, address the issues, discuss the issues, do not address your comments at other commissioners. That is the rule that we passed, and you repeatedly violated it, so that is what caused us to have to recess so we are back on i hope you can behave address the issues could the clerk please call roll mayor allison dennington here go i i'd like to

I don't have a problem that you're not an engineer. I think you have a lot of institutional knowledge, and I think that you do know about stormwater. So I think that that's not an issue for me. I also think that the new manager has improved a lot of sort of upgrading, like modernizing our technology. I think she's even gotten you some fairly inexpensive software that's going to help with that going forward. I think that if you'd ever been given that before, that assistance... THAT WE WOULDN'T BE IN THAT PROBLEM. BUT WE DO HAVE A GAP OR WHATEVER. SO I DON'T MEAN TO BLAME YOU. NO, NO, NO. IT'S J

I'D LIKE TO GET THROUGH A COUPLE MORE COMMENTS.

I KNOW, BUT I WANT TO DISPEL THAT I'M NOT TRYING TO CRITICIZE YOU.

That's actually what's saying transfer to that's the 4.6 budget Does it say roll back at the top or not?

It says roll back But 17 also, I'm looking at the rollback one 17 Well, there's two columns one has zero so it's confusing Okay, roll back

So under the 4.6 budget, these should be zero too? Pardon me? So under the 4.6 budget, these should be zero too?

Yeah, but basically, so your point, because it's in there, is actually wrong because this one is just not corrected matched up.

I don't think so, because if you look at page 17 on the rollback, it has zeros from fiscal year 27 all the way through fiscal year 31. Whereas on page 17 on the 4.6, it has zero for fiscal year 27, and then it goes 52, 52, 52, 52. Go ahead.

Well, anything projected 28, 29, 30 should be the same on both of these or zero, because you're basically

We need anything past or future that is not fiscal 27 under either 4.6 or the rollback. They need to be the same.

But I think the manager's point was is that if we did the rollback, that the monies to be set aside for the next year's budget is gonna be very minimal.

Well, on that point. After and after and after. I'd like to ask, on the old and the new versions, strangely, If you look at the 4.6, which is the town is taking in more revenue versus the rollback rate, taking in 142,000 less in revenue. But then if you look at what the town intends to spend under the 4.6 expenditures versus the rollback rate expenditures, if you look at some things, projected expenses, they don't match, which there are particular categories where that's intentional. but some don't make sense because 4.6 budget, legal expenses, you have like $10,000 less. You're gonna spend le

But who made the decision to say if we take in more revenue and tax people more at 4.6, We don't think we will need as much, and we will spend $10,000 less on that one line item for town attorney, and we will spend $10,000 less on planning, but if we take in less money for these exact same line items, we're gonna actually spend more of it, because for planner and a town attorney, those are kind of the same either way. If anything, you would say, well, maybe we're gonna cut back a little bit on planner or town attorney, but I actually don't think, I think those would be ones that would be the s

You updated that one, but not the other.

But again, so that makes sense because you updated. So if we update the other one, the 4.6... together on those two things that commissioner quarry because when commissioner quarry was talking about that we never had the rollback it was only a 4.6 budget correct and so she requested let's bump that up so what you did was then it was like okay there was a request to bump it up But you didn't bump it up on the 4.6 budget, which is the one that we did. And for some reason it was like, oh, I bumped it up on the new one.

Let's hope our legal fees go down. I was trying to figure out if it was a deliberate choice made by the manager for a specific reason between the budgets. It does sound to me it was a bit of an error.

It wasn't a choice that was reflected to the 4.6 budget to which the discussion had attached. Okay.

So I wonder if we as a commission could give guidance to our staff, you know, are we going to consider the 4.6 and the rollback? Are we going to consider both these budgets? If so, that's important that we say it now for our September meeting. If not, if we're just going to do the rollback, and I know two of the commission said that they would support the rollback with some added benefits in there of added changes perhaps they could share those changes with us before the September meeting but I do think that we should give them guidance are we going to just stick with the rollback are we going

I mean, basically our next meeting is the actual required first hearing. We know we have three votes. You know you have three votes? You would have votes to pass the rollback. That next published one should have that. And if we had to make changes or were going to make changes, we could. But, I mean, yeah. We don't know that. That's what it should be, have the rollback rate. Plus, we need a consistent document. One document at the rollback rate, discussion can go from there, but we have no time. That'd be my preference.

Is that your feeling too, Commissioner Reed? I don't want to say on the question what you're asking me. So are we asking the staff to present two budgets to us at our meeting in September?

I was just handed the rollback one here, so I haven't really looked at it in detail. I expressed my view earlier that the... But I think we can do, there's a way to go to the rollback and still do everything you want to do in 4.6.

So I would recommend to the staff that they present the rollback to us in September. And then we work on it from the commission at that level. I'm disappointed in that. However, if that's the way it goes, that's the way it goes.

You had provided it prior. There were so many errors. I mean, it was practically impossible to look at those. And I know that y'all did the, because you separated the two late Friday, but I mean, it's... Vice Mayor, I understand your...

For what it's worth. I wish I hadn't voted on the increase last year. we'd be an even we'd be even a worse rollback rate if i had yeah motion to adjourn yes please second all in favor say aye aye did we did we allow public comment we did say we were going to do that mrs stark i see you are you wanting i believe we said we were going to did you want to come up no okay all right all in favor say aye aye aye aye okay all