Historic and Environmental Preservation Board - Regular Meeting

June meeting of the historic board to order. Let's all stand for the pledge of allegiance.

I believe our city attorney has a note to read about lobbyists. You would be so kind.

Thank you. Can we have a roll call, please?

Absolutely. Do we have a motion to allow Dr. Hopper to join by Zoom? So moved. And the second was? Yes. Wonderful. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion passes.

Do we have a motion to accept the absence waivers? So moved. Second?

Any opposed? Motion carries. Moving on, I believe we have minutes for the May meeting to approve. Do we have a motion to approve said minutes?

All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion passes.

Thank you. I gather then the board needs to take action to approve the proposed amendment to our calendar? Yes.

Thank you Is there any objection from any of the board members to what's proven proposed? I have a question

So I guess my question is, how many items would you put on there?

And if you wanted to address Mr. Ryan's question first, or I suppose it was more of a discussion, there wasn't really a... I think your question was whether it was going to be capped on the agenda.

Yeah, that was my recollection as well, Hugh. I think that was after the Playhouse, which went into, I think, past midnight. So did our last board meeting go past midnight. I think it was like 10 p.m. last time.

I think, if I may, gentlemen, I think the point is that it will be an extraordinary circumstance considering the number of tree appeals.

I'm sorry, and just to pin that for one moment, I believe we did amend our procedures per an email I have from Warren Adams in January of 2020. In the February meeting of that same year, we amended our procedure to create a requirement that for the meeting to pass 9 p.m. required a unanimous decision by the board.

I think for the purposes of this initial one, considering we know the volume of the July agenda, we know the volume of the tree appeals, I think the most logical thing is to have the special meeting in July, and let's see how that goes. Very good. I agree.

I think considering that we'll have, well, no, because I guess the notice things would require more advance warning than the regular meeting. So let's have the July meeting. Okay. I think that's the most logical thing considering the agenda, and I think we should just move into the public hearing considering the number of items that we have and how many people are present. Great. Thank you. Are there any other updates or discussion items before we move into the public agenda?

Let me suggest that let's take this up after the public agenda, that way we can fully litigate the topic. Any other updates or discussion items, Mr. Kalmas?

Okay, wonderful. Before we go into the meat of it, there were three points I just wanted to bring up, just procedural clarity items. So the first is on items nine and ten, which are an appeal of the same decision. My question for council is whether we can receive common testimony on both of those items and then proceed to adjudicate item number nine or whether we need consent of both parties to do so, in your opinion.

Then that happily moots my point. So I'll move on to my second. And this is just a procedural item for the rest of the board. Hello.

Mr. Cruz, I'll call you over when we move into the public hearing. Let me just finish some procedural items, and then we can have you. Thank you. So we've, under our normal procedures, I don't think there's any restriction as how we've proceeded in terms of the questioning across the board. I think for the sake of the size of this agenda, my preference for this meeting, if you're all amenable to it, would be that if you do have a question for an item, you request the floor through the chair, you'll be recognized. You can go through the entirety of your questionings. The floor is entirely yours

Okay. I just wonder if there's maybe something from the code or procedures that might have say with this circumstance and whether we need to look into that. If you'd be so kind to do so between now and the next meeting. Thank you so much. And with that, we can go into the public agenda. Mr. Fuentes, or Mr. Cruz, if you would be so kind.

Okay, so let's do that. Sorry, Mr. Cruz, if you could wait there for a moment. Mr. Kalmas, the changes to the agenda then, please.

Okay. Is there anybody from the public who wishes to speak on whether, purely on the deferral of item number five? Seeing no one, anybody from the board have an objection or a motion to move the item? Or defer the item, I should say. So moved. Thank you. And a second for that motion? All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Okay. Item number five is moved to the July agenda. Now, coming to items nine and ten, Mr. Kalmas.

For an abundance of clarity, Council, if I'm understanding the circumstances, there was an application to remove four specimen-sized mahogany trees from the public right-of-way. That decision was appealed by the Sierra Club and by members of the public. Items 9 and 10 on our agenda represent those appeals. The applicant has withdrawn the permit, therefore that decision has been vacated. Exactly. So those trees will remain in their current state? Exactly. Okay, thank you. So the request then is to remove items 9 and 10 from our agenda? Is there anybody from the public who wishes to speak on our agenda items 9 and 10's removal?

Elvis, your name and address for the record. I think we've all memorized your address at this point, but I think just for the purpose of our record.

I'm sorry, and I'll have a hard time with that internally, but please go on.

Okay, pin that for a moment, because this is an item. So at this point, the item that's being discussed is its removal from our agenda. So because the applicant has vacated or requested that his approval be vacated, there is no longer an appeal in place because the decision has been rendered. So the extent to which we can go through that now, I'm not entirely sure. So we need clarity from staff. Mr. Council, would you opine on this?

OK. Bob? I think for the purposes of our procedures and remaining within the bounds of a quasi-judicial board, I suggest that any findings you have, you address to us in a letter, and we can take that up as a separate discussion item in its appropriately noticed time. Because this is not what's on the agenda today is the discussion of this. What was here was an appeal, which is no longer in place. because the decision that you wish to overturn has been effectively overturned. So let's keep this in the correct channel. So please direct a letter to us with as much information as you possibly hav

I profoundly appreciate where you're coming from. I will state that you paid to have a decision overturned on the merits of the appeal that you put forward, and that's the outcome that has been rendered. So the justice you sought has been effectively wrought by... not necessarily by the mechanism that you sought, but by circumstance. So I honestly don't know if this is within the remit of this board. I don't think we have say over appellate fees or their reimbursement or charging. I think that falls outside of our duties. Correct.

Okay, understood. Let me propose the following. If we get through this agenda, which is enormous in a rapid manner, and you wish to remain until the end, we may, if the board will will it, maybe we can have a chat about that following the meeting. It was the last item on the agenda already. So, out of credit to everybody who's here for their own items, who also have busy days, let's move through the public hearing, and at the end of the meeting, if there's still time, we can chat it out. Thank you. Any other changes to the agenda, Mr. Kalmas? At this time, no. Okay. Let's move on to item number one, then, please.

We're moving into the rest of the agenda. Right.

We need to vote to move the items. Do we have a motion to that effect? Items nine and ten.

Any opposed? Motion carries. I'm sorry, madam, we've moved on to the public hearing.

I know, but we weren't taking testimony.

If you wish to wait to the end of the agenda, we will maybe get into that, but there are a lot of items here, and there's a lot of people here who wish to speak, and there's an agenda that we need to follow.

I'm sorry, we're not hearing that, and that's beyond the remit of this board. I appreciate profoundly what you wish to do, but we can't hear that right now.

Thank you. Is the applicant present? Thank you. Please come forward and give us your name and address.

And you have power of attorney from the owner?

I don't know. If it's already on the record, it's probably fine. Then good. Let's proceed with the staff report.

Thank you, Adrian. I imagine you disagree with the staff report.

So it sounds like the plan is not complete at the moment.

So just for clarity, before we go into public comments, just to make sure we're all aligned, you do want a decision tonight. You're not asking for a further deferral.

Let's hear it then. Thank you. So we'll go through the public comment and then... Well, actually, would you like to present the project in its current state and then we can have the public comments? Do you want to go through the current status of the project?

Okay, so just for clarity, the scale is identical to what was presented in the previous meeting and in their current set. Thank you. Is there anyone from the public who wishes to speak on this item? Please give your name and address before you speak.

Thank you, sir. Thank you. Is there anyone else from the public who wishes to speak on this item? Seeing no one, I will close the public comments and open to the board for questions.

Okay, anybody? Not all at once? I don't feel like you have to, Bob. Yeah, so we'll recognize you, John, go through all the questions you'd like.

Very good. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Bowers. Mr. Ryan?

Sorry, sorry. Sorry, this is a public hearing. There's a process. Mr. Comus? Okay, yes, sorry.

Thank you, Mr. Trachtenberg. Anybody else wish to add comments? Mr. Bowers, floor is yours.

The west side of the house is the hottest side of the house.

Bob, could I pause you for one second? I think for the purposes of this agenda, let's keep this germane to the exterior street visible things, the interior floor plans and material.

Bob, pause for a second. My point is, if you feel like there's something that you're seeing here that you wish for him to change, say that. Don't worry about what's happening inside. Let them worry about that. Focus on the historicity and the context.

Bob, the floor is still yours. You're good. Mr. Perez.

Thank you, Mr. Perez. Anyone else? Okay. Do we have a motion? Do we have any sense of, I mean, I think there's quite a bit of feedback there. I think, John, you do have a motion?

Thank you, Ms. Tyner. So on that basis, and I think just to elaborate on what Mr. Perez said, I think the point is not that there are certain plans in here. I think the point is that he feels uncomfortable, and I gather that that might be the... will of the rest of the board with the amount of feedback that you just got now from a design standpoint in a completely narrative and non-illustrative way. There is a lot of room for interpretation. You have to interpret it. Staff has to interpret it as in the will of the board. And there's just too much room for error. So it would seem that Mr. Perez

Well, I think to your own preamble to this meeting, the last time we deferred it, you realize that things are very, very quick moving here and it's very difficult for you to provide the documentation in time for that meeting. So realistically, if we deferred to the July meeting, I think you would have until the end of this week to provide absolutely everything. So that's just unrealistic. I think it would be the September meeting at the soonest.

If you say so. understand okay and since this madam was for a question for counsel because this item was deferred once before the applicant has already waived their 60-day rights so they don't need to waive it a second time correct correct okay thank you there's a motion and it's been seconded I would ask that we have a roll call vote please thank you calling member I'm sorry calling member John Perez

Yes. And don't forget, I think Dr. Hopper is here virtually.

Thank you so much. We will see you in September. Actually, I guess we'll see you in one of these coming up items, won't we? See you in item number eight. All right. Thank you.

You ready? It's the applicant press. The applicant is indeed present. Adrian, go ahead with the staff report.

Thank you. Do you have anything you wish to add to the staff report?

Mr. Delfonte, sorry, before you go away, do you have any objections to the four conditions that staff has in the report? No. Okay, thank you. Please proceed.

Just sorry for your reference. We won't ask questions at this stage. We'll come back to that. So just go through your whole presentation. Don't feel the need to pause for questions.

Thank you. Is there anyone from the public who wishes to speak on this item? Seeing no one, we'll close the public comments and open to the board for questions.

Sorry, Mr. Riz, would you pin that for one second? I think let's get some clarity on a couple of the staff conditions, because I do think there's a procedural element here that we need to make sure everybody is perfectly clear on before we go through the full process. Um, discussion. So, Adrian, would you mind terribly just running through the four conditions and specifically the implications? Because I think a key distinction between this project and everything else that we review is the matter before us now is a property that was historically designated. It was burned and likely was potentia

Now, my question, I mean, we have the conditions here, we have them in the staff report. My hope was if you could just give us the more intent behind the conditions that were added here and explain a little bit behind the...

So the intent, if I'm understanding the plain, just to put it in plain language for the sake of the panel board, the point is, if the applicant does not build the property as presented today, there is a reversion to all the restrictions that would have been otherwise applied under any demolition by neglect circumstance. Is that broadly right? So that's the only restriction here. So ultimately, the property will be de-designated and it falls outside the authority of the board if the board chooses to approve this on the basis of your provisions. Conditions, I should say. Okay, thank you. Go ahea

Sorry, let's let someone else go. Just give me one second.

Chris, do you have specific design feedback for the applicant?

If I understand the circumstances as presented, and think in the interest as well of the rest of the agenda tonight, my understanding is that whatever is decided, so let's just say hypothetically the board is willing to indulge the applicant for the next step of this, and they believe validly that what will come before the board will be sufficient to justify a final rescission of the designation, the best thing here would be to give them as much feedback as possible to ensure that what comes next would be a full set of plans and make sure the applicant understands what that approval threshold

So just in the interest of that, if I'm understanding the tenor of the board at this point, it's that they're generally okay with what they're seeing, but they'd like to see a fair bit of detailing change. Am I capturing that correctly, or is anybody blankedly opposed to the matter in front of us? Okay. All right. So coming to the details and in the interest of moving this along, I think Mr. Trachtenberg and Mr. Perez had the most detailed feedback as far as design. I know Hugh made some points as well. Bob, you didn't have a chance to give some specific feedback on the design?

But at any rate, those are my only comments.

And then my only other comment is the garage.

Then forget it. Colonial revival, Bob. I don't think we need archways. Let me take a quick stab at this. I haven't spoken... So, coming into the siding issue, how much... What's the elevation from the ground of the first floor?

I think one of the glaring things to me with this, and I'm not an architect, so this is considered a historically enthusiastic lay perspective, the fact that the shiplap or the beadboard or clabbered, whatever that siding is, because the treatment always sees horizontal lines, it's hard to see what that, so that's just stamped concrete?

I think I would be inclined to agree with Mr. Kalmas on that. I think I also think it'd be important to make sure that you terminate that above the bottom. It should not come all the way to the ground. And I think you should maybe try to express the crawl space that existed in the original property somewhat. So that it's a little bit more reflective of that. I think one of the defining things for these vernacular houses is the fact that they all did have a crawl space. I mean, I think that was a fundamental part of their design. So to the extent that you could capture that, and perhaps some...

I don't mean to raise the property. I'm just simply saying don't terminate. So do the fiberboard, but terminate it above the ground. Give it a base. Put the statue on a plinth sort of thing, if that makes sense.

I think stucco, just base. White stucco? Yeah, and maybe have some, so look at the, we could pull up the picture from the staff report.

Sort of. I think, I mean, it would basically, the best example I can give you is the picture from the staff report. If we could pull that up.

So if you see the integration between the siding and then it's onto the masonry base of the structure, and then you can see the ventilation of the crawl space, that's what I think would be an important integration to make this evoke a little bit of the practical reality of what this architecture did. It was to create... a breezier, more breathing house. So I think that's an important detail, which I would hate to see omitted. Otherwise, I broadly agree with the architectural feedback that you've gotten.

That's all. Thank you. The detailing that we're seeing there in that molding, is that something that's being expressed in the new structure?

You have that as well? Yeah. What about this little crinulated band underneath that lip? The dentals. The dentals.

No. See those little squares all along the... Look up there.

No, no, I don't disagree with you. I think more so that's a point of study. So you will come back to us with a final set of plans. You've gotten a lot of feedback here tonight. So in the final rescission, assuming that this goes in that direction, we will be reviewing a final complete set of plans, I would assume.

So I will say, yeah, I think that's very fair. I think it's certainly in the best interest of all parties that whatever feedback my colleagues on this board wish to give you tonight, Let's go through it. Let's make sure everybody kind of captures what they want to see, if they want to see anything at all. And then I'll remind you, all of this is recorded, so you can go back and watch this presentation in its entirety and kind of take whatever context you need away from that to finalize it. Thank you. I do think it's important that whatever you do get tonight, this board always retains its deli

Okay. Thank you So gentlemen, I think for the sake of moving this along, maybe let's just go down the line. Oh Dr. Hopper, do you have comments forgot about? So we made a list, if you'd like us to. Sorry, there's a question. There's a further board member who is remote, and he has a question for you. Go ahead, Dr. Hopper.

Dr. Albert, we're having a very hard time understanding. The connection's not great. Could you type it into the chat, and perhaps the clerk could read it out, the question?

Okay, I think that was a yes. Sorry, Doctor, the connection's very bad. Okay, while Dr. Hopper asks this question, maybe we can just kind of run through the line. Chris, do you have any architectural feedback here? Okay. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you said pass. Go ahead.

You're clear on your feedback? You're comfortable that that's on the record?

My suggestion was going to be, why don't we have whomever has done sketches to provide them to you, Ken? And so as you liaise with the applicant, that feedback is codified somewhere.

Okay. My feedback was recent, but just to recap it for you, it was the fiberboard siding terminating it high enough to express the call space. And studied the molding detail, and it didn't come up prior, but Mr. Cauley's comment reminded me. I know there is a large mature point cyanotree in the frontage of the lot, correct? I would very much like to see that remain or be moved to the greatest extent possible.

Is that what you were asking? My preference would be to... to whatever extent possible, keep that tree. Certainly, it's contributing enormously to the character of that. It does link the two properties from the existing, from the previous property where that was the frontage of it. It ties into your new structure, so I would very much look kindly upon the preservation of that tree. Or, in a worse case, a relocation of that tree, which is also an option.

I think I would be. I can't tell you how I would review something until we've viewed it. I would say that, to the greatest extent possible, you should try to keep that tree. Absent that, I would like to see that tree mitigated to the greatest possible extent.

something in kind of similar size or of, you know, multiple things of similar size that would create, I mean, what I don't want to see is a six inch or a four inch tree that's just been blocked in front and a payment into a mitigation fund.

I see Dr. Hopper may have posted a message. Would you mind reading that into the record?

Sorry about that. Thank you. Mr. Trachtenberg.

Those were the only things that I remembered, and everything that Mr. The columns that are wrapped around, like the three that you pointed out. Exactly. Okay. Thank you, gentlemen. Anything else that we want to add? Do we have a motion? Moved. You've got to make it, Bob. You can't just say so moved.

No, for clarity, well, you can make a motion for whatever you like. I think just for clarity on the procedure, the item before us is a preliminary rescission of a historic designation. What that means is on the basis of that, the applicant will continue this process and will come back to us with the final set of plans for the final rescission. Is that how you understand it? Mr. Delaunay.

But just for clarity, I think the expectation here is that whatever plans come to this board for the final decision, it will not be a hypothetical. We wish to see something very, very concrete with high levels of details.

If they are lacking in detail or if there's some element of them that's incomplete or some element of that, don't be surprised if that gets deferred or moved further along. We understand. The ball is in your court. Okay. All right. With that.

Theoretically do is to resubmit them to two projects and move forward for an abundance of clarity We are blind to the rest of the process the only thing that interests this board is the character context scale Details historicity of what you're doing whether it's in planning or whether it's in civil work or whatever is it's outside of our Purview we're focused on the details that were put in front of you today.

Yeah, for clarity from staff, does the preliminary rescission need a specified conditioning in terms of the design feedback that was given today?

Motion second. Any discussion on the motion? I think for a point of discussion, I think it would be helpful if perhaps the language of that condition with regard to the feedback that they received tonight is to imply that the design that was presented and on the basis of the preliminary rescission, that the board was not entirely comfortable moving forward with that, but that on the basis of the provided feedback, the expectation is that they will provide something that will be satisfactory to the board. I think that was implied, though, by them coming back to present it to us. I suppose. But

I think for an abundance of clarity, the plan that was presented tonight falls short of what this board would approve for a rescission of final designation. So it is on you, the applicant, to present to the board a set of plans that are adequately detailed with the feedback that you received tonight that the board feels comfortable proceeding with the rescission.

Correct. Although I suppose that also could be deferred.

Jordan, do you accept that modification? I accept it. Who was the second?

We're still pending a second agreement. Second. No, no, sorry. The second, which was Hugh, needs to agree with the modification. Okay, fine. Then you give it to Bob. Do you agree with the modification of the condition?

Yes, work with him, but as I said and as I cautioned you, at the end of the day, this is feedback. Right. What I'm telling you to take away from this meeting is that the plans that you presented fell short of the metric for final, right? So what you come up with is your own concept. You have a sense of what the board wishes to see, but that may also fall short. So it's incumbent on you to make sure that you capture this to the greatest extent possible. I think you have good, very clear feedback from everybody in terms of what they wish to see, in terms of intent, as well as in specificity. So Marvelous. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Well, no, nothing's happened yet. Can we have a roll call vote, please?

No, that's outside of 60 days, isn't it?

60 days of our board, or is it 60 calendar days?

Because this is the appeal period. It's not related to our board. This is the period of appeal. All right, thank you so much.

Thank you so much. Is the applicant present? I'm assuming that's a yes, but we're waiting for him to walk out.

No, it's okay. Could you give us your name and address for the record, please?

Nope, that's good. You can take a pause there. If you would read the staff report, please.

Yes, please proceed. The abridged version, if you'd be so kind.

Thank you. Would you like to give us your side of things?

Thank you. Is there anyone from the public wishing to speak on this item? Okay, so no one will close the public comments and open to the board for questions. I mean, I think this is just for clarity for our purposes. You're saying that in broad strokes, there are two fundamental reasons you're requesting the ability to place shingle tiles. One is that there is no structural capacity in the roof to support a clay or a tile. And number two, you're claiming there is a financial hardship that makes it impractical for the applicant to purchase a more expensive roofing system. Is that correct?

Okay, thank you. Let's have any discussion on that motion.

Okay, thank you. Any other discussion on that motion? You don't feel like you have to.

I think for the purposes of this motion, we should look at this through the prism of financial hardship. If you believe there to be one, I think this is a valid.

Jordan, let me make one quick suggestion. Why don't you propose to amend your motion on the basis of the findings that you are now articulating?

Financial hardship as well? Do you want to note that?

And the seconder agrees with the amendment? Thank you. Can we have a roll call, please, if there's no further discussion? Roll call.

Thank you. Good luck. We're good. Yeah, you're good. You can put your shingle roof. Beautiful. Thank you so much. You're very welcome.

Yeah, it's right here. I think that probably has to go to the clerk. Yeah, that has to stay. If you could pass that down to the clerk.

Noted. That was a 15-minute item, Mr. Colmus. Let's try to keep it that way.

Thank you so much. You may proceed with the staff report.

Thank you very much. Is there anything you wish to add to the staff report? Or do you have any objections to the conditions listed by staff or their conclusions?

Thank you. I don't know if that's something you want to just chuck into now. Do you guys want to give them the feedback there, or do you want to wait to get the board's views? I thought that might be the most practical. I thought they might. Great. Thank you so much. Is there anyone from the public who wishes to speak on this item? Seeing no one, I'll close the public comments, and let's go to the board. Who wishes to go first? Do you have any, I mean, if everyone is just happy with what they're seeing?

Yeah, thank you. That's all I have. Anything else, gentlemen?

Thank you. Any discussion on the motion?

Item number six, please. Thank you for your service.

Sorry? Could you give us your, are you the applicant? I see you have a power of attorney. Are you their representative?

And your address for the record, please?

Question before we get started. Are we comfortable? That's a valid power of attorney. You're happy with the... Yes, I am. Thank you so much. Please proceed with the staff report.

Thank you. Is there anything you wish to add to the staff report?

Thank you. Is there anyone from the public who wishes to speak on this item? Seeing no one, we'll close the public comments and go to the board for questions.

No, but this came before. I know, but we're going through procedures. But the floor is yours, Bob.

Bob, sorry. I don't mean to interrupt you. We've got a lot of items. Yeah, got it.

Do you think the impression you get is that you want them to restore? Right. Pertaining to their application, what do you mean exactly, Bob?

Thank you. Is there a second to that motion? Thank you. Any discussion on the motion? Roll call, please.

I think that was a no. Roll call vote, please.

Dr. Hopper, was that a yes or a no? I vote yes. Yes.

Would you give us your name and address, please?

Thank you. Is there anything you wish to add to the staff report? Sorry, would you mind terribly being close to the mic? Great. Thank you. Is there anyone from the public who wishes to speak on this item? Please come forward. Give us your name and address. Are you sure there's nothing specific you want to get into? This is your chance.

Would you like to say something? Please come forward.

Thank you so much. If there's anyone else who wishes to speak on this item, speak now. Seeing no one, I'll close the public comments and open to the board for questions. Or a motion.

No other discussion? Roll call vote, please.

Do you have a power of attorney? Then we probably cannot start. Yeah, we can't start. Okay. Do you know, your architect was here earlier, was he not?

Okay. He was the same one from earlier, right?

This is our last item. Let's give it a few minutes. Let's see what happens. Cool your jets, Bob Powers. Why don't we pause? Let's take a five-minute recess while we wait. Well, I was going to say, let's just recess for a minute, and then let's go discussion items. Does anybody want to recess, or do you want to go straight into discussion items, and that way we...

Jordan, would you like me to officially recognize that that was a great idea? Yes, please. So recognized.

Are we able to have our discussion items and then come back to this if the architect is present? Okay, yes. Then that is the intent.

I had some points that I wish to bring up. Okay. And I think that other members may have a question or two, so why don't we read it in that manner. So Jordan, since it was your brilliant idea, why don't you lead us off?

Thank you. Good catch, Jordan. That's a good addition. There's also, I mean, in the same vein of Florida laws that might impact the powers of a historic district, there was something some years ago as well with regard to properties within a coastal flooding zone and whether a property that is within a coastal flooding zone that is historically designated could potentially be demolished to be brought into compliance with the FEMA flood restrictions. So I'd be curious if we could maybe add that to the same conversation. I believe that there may be additional interpretations there.

I think it sounds like a training on that would be really helpful. Ms. Steiner, the Florida bill I was referring to was SB 1346 slash HB 1317. I'd be curious just to get the planning department's perspective on how that's being interpreted in our code. Are we all here?

Do you want to wait until I... Yeah, let's finish the public hearing and then we'll come back to that.

Yes, please proceed with item number eight.

Thank you. Is the applicant present? Come on and give us your name and address for the record. You look remarkably dry from...

Very good. Please proceed with the staff report.

Is there anything you wish to add to the staff report? Sorry, is there anything you would like to add to the staff report or anything you disagree with?

Thank you. Is there anybody from the public who wishes to speak? You seem like you got very wet to be here, so please come and give your name and address to the record. I think there's only a cable on that side. Would you mind? I think you might need to take your laptop out as well so he can plug in. I mean, considering how many times you've been here.

Thank you. Does anybody else wish to speak on SIDEM? Please come on up. And while you do, I do want to point out, I think, just to dispel something, the HEP does not approve these items. The HEP simply recommends to the director of planning. And there were a number, I think, of the four that you cite, I think, if I remember correctly, the HEP rejected quite a number of them that were approved anyways. So I think just for the sake of clarity, the guidelines of this board and the powers that we have with regard to Charles Avenue are somewhat limited. Indeed. Please name an address for the record

Thank you so much. Anyone else who wishes to speak? Seeing no one, I'll close the public comments and open to the board for questions, comments.

I can go while you guys have your further deliberations. I will start by saying while I do appreciate in regard to some of the structures that have come to us previously in Charles Avenue, I very much feel that this structure is a contemporary house with Bahamian ornamentation. I think that you put a lot of effort into it, and I appreciate your comment about the owner's wishes to have larger openings and what have you, and I feel very much that the property that you designed here is in keeping with whatever guidelines you were given for your design. But when we consider this through the prism

Actually, yeah, let's pause there for a moment. I saw in the street view in Adrian's presentation that there, I think there may have been a mature oak tree in the front layer.

Could you pull up your architectural plans? Sorry, your landscape plans.

You want to go over the existing or the... Yeah, let's start with the existing. So I saw from the... That's slightly different to the... Oh, no. No, yeah, it's a little different from what we have in our set. This is... Is that L-1.00 or is that a different page?

Okay. Yeah, it looks slightly different to what I have in the packet, which shows...

No, no. The one I'm looking at, which is labeled L-1.00, it does include... So, for example, it's the same plan as you have open, but it shows a number of additional trees being removed, or at least the Xs are a different color. I will have a look there as well. But I'm trying to first understand what they're proposing to do as far as those trees. So...

This is the plan we have, so it's showing a lot more tree removal. No, look up on the screen. It's a little bit. See, there are a few trees. Right, but, oh, I see what you're saying. But I'm saying, like, these trees are shown as being removed, whereas in the plan you have up, they're not. Correct. So it's a little confusing there.

Thank you, Ken. I appreciate the clarification. Go on, Chris.

Yeah, I mean, I will point out for the record, from what I can tell from this plan of the 27 trees that are currently on site, you're keeping five. And I don't know if I mean realize that's not germane to this review, but that is disappointing

Just relaying my disappointment in the amount of tree removal.

We have three options. I think we can approve with conditions, we can deny, or we can defer, I think.

But for reference, were we to recommend denial, we could do so with findings, despite the fact that we can't condition...

And for clarity, Ken, we can make a dozen conditions on our recommendation for approval, and the planning director is not beholden to observe them.

So, I mean, here we are. We've gone through it. I think the applicant's gotten a sense of the sort of feedback. There is a lot of feedback that's come through. And I think, I mean, I can only speak for myself in saying that I feel like this does fall short as to what I would see as an approvable property for Charles Avenue, which I think has been very correctly characterized as a profoundly historic street in a very historic part of the city. I would think... At this stage, certainly my preference, and I don't know where the board lands, would be that you take all of this guidance that you've

I will pause my soliloquy. Do you want to say while they confer? Sure. Go on, Bob.

Am I not speaking loud enough? I really don't want to say that out loud, but no. Oh, my goodness.

First off, it would lower the profile of the house.

Ken, have your deliberations been fruitful?

Okay, all right. So the guidance remains as read in. Thank you. And that's a lot of feedback. Out of curiosity, just... No, no, actually, we've addressed this previously. I don't need to go down that road. What's the will of the board? Do we feel like you are comfortable? I am inclined to agree with you, Bob. I think there's a lot here, and I would hate to try to, as we said earlier, capture a bunch of visual concepts in narrative form. It's always difficult. So you've had a lot of input.

If we deny you, you don't do anything else. It just goes to the planning department for the planning director to determine, correct?

No, but I think it's important that you understand the bifurcation of what a zoning allowance means and what all the other layers of city police powers imply. The historic districts of the city and all the many other layers that create nuances in the various neighborhoods are what make Miami a unique place and are what make places like Coconut Grove valuable and sought after. There are innumerable swathes of the city of Miami where you can build to the absolute extent of Miami 21 zoning without any restriction whatsoever. There are parts that are not, and that's what makes those parts interest

If you look at the Mariah Brown house, if you look at another historic one that's just down the street from you, they're all very much more forward. They're more prominently on the frontage. So I think I would be very inclined to approve something that's much more pushed forward to the greatest extent possible with more dramatic porches, which would give you more room in the back for your pool. Also, you have a notch cut out on one side. You can maybe take that up. I think creating a more uniform structure rather than the articulated volumes can give you more square footage and make it more co

Just to soften this a little bit. I mean, also keep in mind, you've now got two items in front of us. I imagine you're going to be coming back a lot more. So it's good that we all get to work together and learn how to work through this process. Because getting it right, and this is a great source of... you know, work for you. And the better you understand this, the better it's going to be for us in the future because you'll be able to bring these projects forward to us in a language that is, that the board, I mean, you can tell, the board is generally very aligned on these things because we've

Yeah, I mean, if he can... If one of the questions is something that he can address, but Mr. Perez is speaking, so you can't interrupt the member.

So I'll ask you a question, and maybe this will give you an opportunity to comment, which is, do you think your client would be amenable to a deferral? Do you think your client, and either of you can answer this question, would your client be amenable, would your client be okay deferring the item?

You need to give us your name and address.

It's kind of houses and project. That's precisely the problem. I mean, what you're articulating is the reason this is at this board now.

Permit me to finish. This city, so Charles Avenue is a very historic street. It was designated as such. And control over that has passed between various city departments. And precisely because there was a perception that previous regulatory bodies were not treating Charles Avenue correctly, that it ended up at this board only very recently. So while things may have been approved in the past, the only prism through which we're looking at this is through the prism of the island design guidelines or the Village West design guidelines. And that's what's being applied here.

No, they're entitled by right of zoning, but that's one right. There are many other rights. You've got to comply with all the regulations of the code. And that is zoning as well as many others. So yes, by right, by zoning right, you can build a certain thing, but there are other layers. And so what I'm telling you now, and I don't think we need to get into the merits of this, is that based on the design guidelines, which is what has empowered this board to oversee this neighborhood through, this board, by my general sense of it, and we haven't put anything to vote yet, is that the... I'm sorry

No one said that. No one has said that. And if you want to mischaracterize this board, you're very welcome to, but now you're starting to waste our time. So I'll ask if you don't have anything further to answer. That will be all. No, well, it's starting to get a little bit negative, your comments. So if you have anything further, otherwise, I think the intent is either to defer this item and give you an opportunity to take this to your client and add... Additional details and take the advice of this board into consideration or you can have us take action tonight Which I suspect won't be a positive one It's up to you guys We can't defer without you guys agreeing to defer

I can't tell you I can't answer how long it's gonna take you guys to take the feedback that we gave you redesign speak to your client find something that works for you but that's the media controlling factor as you now well know this September maybe You come back here and if you capture the feedback well and what you give us is good. And as I will point out, as staff pointed out, there's one deferral. So please do your best to capture this as much as possible. We don't want to deny your client their ability to build their house. We don't want to cause difficulties. We just want to make sure th

And I will say, as far as our feedback, this whole meeting is televised. So if you ask Mr. Comis or if you just Google City of Miami TV, this entire meeting is recorded. You can listen to the entire feedback from every member here to get a sense of what it is. You know, just look up Bahamas architecture and look at some, you know, street views of the historic Bahamian Islands or drive around that part of the grove. There's still some very, really well-preserved original houses, and their interactions with the street make it very easy to get a sense of what it is that that part of the code was

And speak to the neighbors. That's an enormous resource right there. So, in fact, I would suggest for your purposes, exchange information on your way out. And I think that's going to be your easiest way to capture what it is, because it's the neighborhoods that very much contributed to the intent of creating this district in the first place. That's, you know, many years ago when the NCDs were built, it was because the neighbors wanted more protections to preserve the neighborhood that they live in. And I think that matters a lot. And I think that's something that would be very helpful for you

Oh, that's a good idea, Ken. So... Are you comfortable with it being September? Yes. Is that your preference?

Me. Are you comfortable with amending to a date certain of September 1st? I am. Thank you. And the second? Thank you. Any discussion on the motion? Okay. Roll call vote, please.

Before we do, the applicant, you're all good. You don't have to stay for this part of it.

I don't think we took a vote. I think we just agreed. We were told that no vote was needed, but I think the idea was let's do July and then we'll see where we are.

And for clarity, I believe Mr. Fuentes was absent for everything in both quarters, correct? Okay. Maybe, I don't know if, for sunshine reasons, we cannot contact him, but maybe could somebody reach out and see if he just...

Understood. I noticed that under our procedures, There is a specific section on this that states that a member who's missed three consecutive meetings is automatically removed, although I don't think there is a mechanism for that.

Yeah. Okay, let's leave that. I had some discussion items, but I think in the interest of finishing before 8 o'clock, I think we can leave that. Actually, not a discussion item, but Ken mentioned this briefly when we spoke. I would very much like to visit some of our historic sites just to be able to check in on them. I think particularly the Playhouse, which has now been shrouded for some time. I also would love to see Marine Stadium and the Courthouse. Both have been brought to my attention as places that would be worth visiting. a visit from a historic or the entire historic board. How can

Okay, that sounds great. I will be gone until the 15th of August, so if it could be after the 15th, that would be tremendous.

You know what, I second that, Jordan. And bring your paint with you. And can we do it at noon, maybe, or one o'clock? Great, perfect.

I think it's in your purview as a board member to request to go visit them. I'm just saying.

There's a profound difference between equity in a house and the liquidity to be able to purchase a roof. I don't disagree with you.

That's a great point. And I will, I was going to say to you, Bob, that I, we have dealt with at least a dozen shingle roof issues on this board, at least during my tenure. In many instances, it's a developer who was halfway through the project before they realized it, and then they were just trying to get it pushed through. And in every instance, we've rejected those shingle roofs, and we've demanded it. Or in many instances, there's a spec house person, or there's a person who's just flipping the property, and they're trying to gain the system. There are a few instances where there's been som

Well, that's my view. And I, but I appreciate where you're coming from, Bob. I think you have a valid point with that and that we should be more consistent.

No, no, out of curiosity. Like, you know that neighborhood's super wall-bottomed. You voted no.

Hold on, hold on. This is not rhetorical, Bob. This is a legit line of questioning because you know Palm Grove better than anybody I know. I know what I was doing. So, Bob, this lady... came to us today um yeah this was not after the fact right she came here saying i want i need a shingle roof i can't afford a clay tile roof just simple question do you doubt her financial hardship no but i doubt the fellow that she brought here because he this is now the third roof he's put on in that neighborhood so he he's come before this board three times now Yeah, but I don't believe that, I mean, the per

Yeah, and look, if he comes here with a spec house and he says, you know, the roof trusses can't hold clay tiles, I have no interest in, you know, I don't buy that one.

Bob Powers would not have granted you financial hardship.

Is our quorum four or five? Five. We are no longer in quorum. Yes, we are, because you have hit me there.

All in favor? Aye. All right, see you all in July.