Planning and Zoning Board - Regular Meeting

Hi, good evening, everybody. Welcome to Planning and Zoning Board. Madam Clerk, would you please call the roll?

Thank you. Okay, let's kick it off with our town liaison, commission liaison, please.

Likewise, and thank you for your time spent with us. Okay, I think that brings us to approval of minutes from last month's meeting. Any comments, questions, or motions?

Any opposed? Aye. Motion carries. Okay, are there any comments on the agenda order of business? Anything people want to move around? The only thing I would say is I'd like to put the future discussion items tracker at the end of section eight discussion items, just so we have time to get through the actual items first. Any other comments? Okay. Do I need a motion to make that change? Okay. Can I have a motion to make that change, please?

All in favor say aye. Madam Chair, I will need a specific motion. Okay. You're moving 8A to the end of Section 8.

All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. Okay, thank you. And that brings us to our applications for the evening starting with 8842 Froud Avenue. Madam Planner? Through the chair. I always forget, sorry. Go for it. Thank you.

So if you think you may speak at all tonight, please rise.

Go ahead, Lib. OK, thank you. All right, now turning it over to our town planner for presentation.

Yeah, you two, come on up. State your name and address for the record. And I think it would be especially helpful, since we all spoke last month, if you could focus just on the changes. That'd be great. 100%.

So if you, yeah, you can either scroll through the pages, get to where you want, and then close that pages window. It'll make everything a little bigger.

Yeah, it takes a second on this Wi-Fi to get loaded. Is the page loading?

We'll let you make the presentation, and I imagine there will be some follow-up questions.

Could you walk us through that tree disposition plan? Because it looks to me like you're losing quite a number or relocating quite a number of large trees, which I think is...

So you've got a pretty big mango that you're eliminating?

And why are you moving all the palm trees back?

I think those are all slated to be moved in your current plan. Yeah, so we'll talk more about that later. But I wanted to understand exactly where they were on here. Okay.

Okay, thank you. And are you working with an architect on this?

Okay. Let me open it up to the public, and then we'll continue the conversation. Thank you. George, did you want to speak? Come on up. Should we move? You guys can. Sorry. Oh, George missed the swearing in. Could you please raise your hand?

Yeah. You thought the material of the planters.

Thank you. Anybody else from the public wish to speak? Okay. Seeing none, I'll close the public comment and I'll open it to board members. Who would like to start?

I mean, I think this is a completely different house. And I think it's cohesive. I think it's serene. I think that it feels the outside of the house, the front of the house to me feels effortless, which is what I appreciate. I actually agree with... It's also like we talked about this many times, it's that setback as we're writing into the code. I think that if you've used it to benefit the house immensely, you create a garden on the second floor, which I think is the right thing to do. I also think that, I agree with George, I think that it's just a matter of language. I think that you did a

Okay, let's keep going. Great, thank you. Other comments? Yep, go ahead.

I wasn't in a past meeting, but just the right, I think it's a balcony, or is it a terrace? I don't see the size, but I'm trying to see it here. I know that you said you're going to plant tall vegetation, right? But that balcony is basically facing the neighbor, right? So, well, just keep in mind the privacy and just try to focus on planting something there that brings the privacy.

I mean, I think that one more thing. I love the fact that you step in the house down, bringing the pool to grade. I mean, I think that that's... This is an example of how you can go up and they come down again. And I think you've made the right choice of stepping down to me and having the pool not in a box sitting in the background with a building sitting in a box and destroying the backyard. And I think you achieve so much more privacy by being lower in relation to your neighbors. Because once you have one of those boxes up there, you're literally eight feet above your neighbors. So I think t

Okay. So I had some similar comments to what George was saying. When I, first of all, let me back up and say thank you for the revisions for working with us. I think this is a much improved version. I still think it has work to be done to fit into the kind of the fabric of our neighborhood. And I say that because I, can you pull up the front? Maybe we can start there. And George helped me articulate it, actually, when he made his comments. But there's this sort of dark gray base from the driveway all the way up that feels kind of very like hard concrete to me and sort of like dark, hard concre

Yeah, and I think, you know, what Carlos was saying makes sense in that they do make some beautiful limestone or coral stone sort of more pervious pavers that you can even have grass coming up in between that would sort of soften that dark, impervious approach to the home.

I think that that part of it is still left as a diagram. It's not designed. That's what I'm saying, that your house is still, it needs one more layer of detailing, especially in those moments.

And then can we look at the back, please? So the double height windows to me also read hotel lobby, hotel atrium at the embassy suites. So I don't know how you resolve that. I think also the proportionality of the little, tiny, narrow, tall balcony on the left to the proportion of the volume on the right is very disjointed. It just makes that little balcony look so tiny. And I don't know how to resolve that. But the proportions of this rear are not... resolved for me. I think what Adrian said about the side facing balcony over your neighbor, I think in general, from what I can tell in the land

Because there's also some really cool ways where the decking can go around them, you know like I don't know if they're in the deck or in the pool, but you know, it'd be a really cool feature to be able to keep those and

Yeah, it's hard to tell because your house, that's not your proposed house, right? This is existing.

They're kind of in the middle of the yard.

Do you have a superimposed on the existing?

Yeah, well, you can deal with that. They're all within buildings. The palm trees are where the pool is and the other big trees where that terrace is.

Yeah, I think the pool could come back a little bit and save them, but... And then the mango tree is somewhere around. Yeah, I can see the mango tree. So you're mitigating that mango tree by planting another one, and that's that tree here? Okay. Yeah, we just want that to be a sufficiently large, you know, not like the sapling that's going to take... We love it. We don't want to take it down.

I want to say one more thing before we continue. I think that what I meant about the I think that what the house needs, especially if you can go to the back of the house where right now, I don't have an issue with the amount of glass that you have of it. It's just right now, it's very storefront. You know what I mean? It looks commercial. It has sort of a rawness to it that it doesn't look, that's what I meant to it. To me, it's a diagram. It's not engineered properly still for a home. We can't even tell what opens, what doesn't. The next step is to me is to, for example, in that back, because

One question. Are the frames black color, or are they the windows, like the frames? Yes.

Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, because it would look better, right? Yeah, no, it's bronze.

They look black in the rendering, but yeah. Okay. Any other questions from the board? Is the board ready to make a motion?

Make your motion. See if you get a second.

I mean, I think we should make a motion to approve with a few of these conditions that we spoke about. Are you okay with that?

Does anybody want to second that motion? Okay, any discussion? I mean, I'm a little hesitant. There's some pretty big changes, especially that window wall that I'm surprised you don't want to see come back. But if there's a majority on the board that are comfortable with that, then let's...

I mean, I think I have... I mean, it's a leap of faith because I know the work and I know where they want the house to head towards. So I think that it's going to be done. So, I mean, I think if we make it a... What are the conditions you're proposing? I think the conditions that need to be... I think that window wall in the back needs to be... It needs to have a layer of wood. It needs to be... There has to be a layer added to that so it doesn't look like a storefront. So it has to be engineered that way. And I think that the front of the house needs... That whole gray area needs to continue

I would add that the side setback vegetation needs to be all the way along the side of the full height of the house.

Yeah. And I think that balcony needs some protection from the neighbor. That is a Juliette balcony. It doesn't look at Romeo down below. So, I mean, I think that there's some.

Are those the conditions? Do those comprise everybody's satisfaction?

so Carlos you said for that big window wall how do you picture the wood like

I think that the glass needs to set further back into that opening, and then another layer of wood needs to be added, like louvers. You can't have plain glass like that in the West. It's just... It's not realistic. You can't do it. I mean, you wouldn't be able to sit inside that house. You'd be cooked, even with air conditioning on. So I think it's pretty much safe to say that if we veil that whole back with a system of louvers that needs to be done, so it's that added to the house, so it becomes a tropical house where you can control the way the light hits that, especially because it's west-f

And they're committed to a beautiful house, so I'm sure that, you know, I think that they will do it, so.

So we have a motion to approve with staff conditions and the following conditions by the board, addressing the window wall in the rear elevation with wood louvers, addressing the front elevation gray base with stone, and ideally pervious stone in the driveway, and adding trees or vegetation in the side setbacks to the height of the home. Madam Clerk, please call the roll.

No, that hits the whole idea of the green that needs to be higher. The side vegetation. The side vegetation. It's the same thought. All right.

Good luck guys. Thanks for working with us. Okay. Let's go move on to 89, 19 Harding Avenue.

Would the applicant wish to speak? Great. And if you wouldn't mind, since we saw the item last month, if you could please identify the specific changes, that would be helpful. Absolutely. If you would just state your name and address for the record.

We're going to lose that. Victor, it's going to fall.

Okay, let me open it to public comment, and then we'll turn it over to the board. George, I see you standing. Come.

i like it i hope you would approve it with some attention to maybe the entrance that's my point of view thank you thank you any other speakers from the public i can't really see so i'll assume no um you want us to move no let's keep those up there thanks um okay can you take can you take these boards down a few of them because it's it's very weird to speak to she that's what she just offered

Yeah, just at least so we can see you for head on. Thank you. That's enough. I mean, we have. That's good.

Thank you. Okay, so let's bring it back to the board for comment.

Well, just my first comment, because of the lawyer's remarks, for me personally, I need more time to then review this in order to make comments.

I think that if it's a home or it's not a home, I mean, it's a home as much as I'm Chinese. I don't think it's a home. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. We're going to accept it's a home, and that's it. We always accept that it was a home. We have to make it be domestic since it's a home. Whatever use it's going to have, that's outside of my understanding. The thing is strange, but it needs to sit like a pavilion in, because it's part of a garden, because it's adjoining that whole. jungle that has been created, which I actually love. I think it's very beautiful. So I'm actually on your sid

I'm going to get to a lot of things. I think that you want this house to open more to the garden, more than to Harding, because I would imagine this house is connected to the garden, to the green. it's gonna be enjoyed more coming from the garden into the side of the house more than the harding side of the house. Do you know what I'm getting at? Yeah.

I'm gonna get to a lot of details of the house. When you look at the side of the house, what bothers me the most is that pilaster in the corner. That heavy column that sits there in the corner with that second piece of black that is over, I think that's completely necessary. I also think that, I agree with George, the whole setup of the front door is a miss. I think that the front door, because I'm not In an attempt to make it a home, you created this hokey front door that it doesn't fit with the sensibility of the rear and the side, which I think is a lot nicer because it's more pavilion-like

I think it's somewhere in between the two.

I think in your attempt to make it look domestic and make it like a house, you became cute. And I think that I agree with George. This house sits outside of the realm of regular houses because it's such an anomaly in the town. And I want it to exist. I think it's a great addition to it. I'm not against it in any mean. I love the garden. I really love that. I mean, hopefully someday I'll get to enjoy it too. But I'm just saying. I'm trying to push the house more to a pavilion side of sensibility. So I think in your attempt to try to please us in making more housey, you know, looking more like a

No, no, no, I know, I know, but I'm just saying... the little sculpture. I think the two little windows, one is a window to a bathroom, which is like, one is a window to a bathroom, the other one is a window. So I think that I'm trying to clean up, going back to cleaning up the I'm trying to tell how I feel about it. I think that, again, if we start eliminating that band on the second tier band that is so necessary because it doesn't do any service and it's overkill, and those heavy rusticated sort of stones, I think the pavilion needs to be more like a

the prior meetings that- There's a little bit of understanding in our part because we're trying to make it fit within how we guide ourselves to try to judge these things. This house is an anomaly in the town. So I want it to be more of an anomaly. I want it to go back a little bit more to what it used to be before. The front have a front door, but be more plain and So it doesn't have this, and also this step. You know, when you do a stoop with two railings on the side, there's no way around, that's always ugly. There's no way around it, because it's, I think that the whole, maybe those steps n

Let us get through the comments, because I want you to have everything, and then let's continue the conversation.

I think the stucco, I mean, you want this to be a little jewel, okay? Because you were going to spend a lot more money in the first round than this round. It was more expensive the first time you showed up to it than this one. So this is cheaper version than the first one. Much. So since you're willing to spend money, I think that- When you have the expanses of stone, I think that you need to deal with more of slabs of stone with a pattern, something elegant and beautiful, more like the Barcelona Pavilion, something a little bit more exquisite, a little bit hokey.

I think the stucco could be mixed with pieces of stone. Whenever you want to do the rustic stone, I don't particularly like that thing in the corner because I think that's really heavy handed and ugly. You want the building to turn the corner. So I think that whatever you have, the stone, the russicated stone, I think that to me, I would clad the building with a coral stone or something. The building is a pavilion in the garden. You're creating a beautiful garden. I think that this needs to feel not like a house in Homestead. It needs to look like a beautiful pavilion in the garden and i think

Yeah, it's not compatible with our design guidelines. Okay.

I think that this pavilion needs to be lit from down up. You don't need any lights on any surface. It has to be like a little pavilion that floats at night in a garden.

So may the speaker come? Please speak into the microphone. Yeah. And one thing I would just add, you may have heard at the beginning of the meeting that we just recently passed our new design guidelines. And I hope that you guys have had a chance to look at those because I think there are a few elements here, and I can get to them if we don't go through them, that are not quite

Okay, so let me just put my two cents out there, and then we'll help you wrap it up. So there's three things that I'm noticing. I share the same feeling about the front. It's just not cohesive. So 360-degree architecture is one of our core values in Surfside. And I feel like when you look at the front, it doesn't sort of map to the rest of the structure. And I think what I'm hearing is people prefer the rest of the structure, and we need to bring more of that look and feel to the front, that the front is not in keeping with the same concept. So that's the 360 degree architecture. I think the l

Perfect. And then the material coherence. So the coherence of the materials chosen. I agree with the comment about the stone. I think, and I would recommend sort of somewhere in between where you started and where you got to. I think the pendulum swung a little bit too far over here. And if we can get it back somewhere in the middle, it's going to be perfect. So generally those are my thoughts. And I think, you know, when you look at some of the side elements, I'll leave it at that.

I'm going to make one suggestion, so it's very punctual. I think when it comes to the front door, if you want to enter the house on, I mean, did you want to enter the house on Harding?

Okay, so there's going to be an entrance warning. So one way of handling that stoop that you need to get up there, I think that because you have that grade up on the left hand side, I think that you can terrace maybe this corner in couple times so the steps are linked into some kind of terracing. So you don't end up getting that stoop with that railing. So you step that whole corner. So this corner. is terrace so you can landscape in levels and you have a garden at the corner and the steps become just a continuation of of the planter and you don't get that stoop with those two railings i think

I'm using that berm that you have on the side so you can terrace around the corner. And I think that you need to go into... You know, the house is broken down into planes. The back is taller, and it's one plane. Then you have the center body, and you stucco. I would suggest that something you can do with the side, with that stucco, with the skinny window, which I don't mind. I think that maybe you can have an ivy growing on that wall. So maybe this pavilion becomes, you know, you have a wall of green on there. I think that the green of the garden needs to go up on this pavilion. So I think tha

It can't be visible. It won't be visible. The zone doesn't allow it to be visible.

I mean, I think that... It's up to you guys, but I think that we itemize the changes and make them very clear changes that we're expecting to see. I don't know, it's up to you guys. I think we've pinpointed the changes that we want to see, but it's not for me to decide.

Well, it is for us to decide. We need to make a motion. Our options are to approve, deny, or defer. What is the will of the board?

Okay, so anybody else have a thought, motion?

Okay, what does this side of the dais feel?

I mean, we're not going to be here, so yeah.

I mean, we're not going to be here, so that leaves it in limbo.

Okay, Nicole and Adrian, we have sort of a vote to defer, a vote to approve with conditions. I need your input, please.

So as I mentioned, I'm abstaining this time.

I hear two for conditions, so let's take a shot at that.

Yeah, if I can add again, I want to simplify this building as much as we can. So we don't keep on going around. I think that we never had an issue with the side of the building. We never really had an issue with the back of the building. I think that We have issues with the materials of the buildings, and we have a bigger issue with the facade onto Harding. So I think if we can pinpoint very succinct five things that we want absolutely changed on it, I think that we can get it. I will be comfortable with moving it forward because I really don't have an issue so much with the massing or the bac

Okay, let's go ahead. So why don't you make a motion to approve with conditions?

I'm going to make a motion to approve with conditions.

Because the lawyer mentioned that we needed to present more details for bringing our comments in. So I need to review more comments because I still think that the future of this property will be used for commercial use. So maybe we need to explore having a special hearing or a rezoning, maybe. But that's why I'm not voting, because I don't have that information.

Do I have to say you have a positive or... You're here present.

Okay, I'll vote, but I didn't want to affect the process. Okay, I'll vote.

It's okay. You'll vote against... approving it with conditions.

Well, he'll make his own vote. Let's just move forward. Member Aparicio, can you please restate your motion?

I make a motion to approve with conditions.

I second that motion. OK. So now we'll list the conditions in addition to staff conditions.

Thank you. I think that the first thing we need to do is remove the rustic stone from it and change it to what I would suggest to be coral stone, because I think it's the right thing to. I think that all the windows, which I don't know exactly. I'm at a little bit of a loss. I think you were suggesting to be bronze. It could not be black.

Yeah. So I think that they need to be. So we go into that palette. We have the coral stone. So whatever you're coating with stone is going to be coral stone. I think that the top border, which we have, which it looks like a piece of aluminum. I'm not sure what that is. I think that it needs to not be the highlight. It needs to disappear.

I don't think- There's two, which are you referring to?

All of them. Those lines of darkness, yeah.

We will make it so it's more monochromatic.

All black trim, correct. More monochromatic. I think the side, which faces the garden, I think that wall needs, I would love it to see it covered with ivy because it would be- Adding to the garden. Correct. I think that the corner column needs to be removed, which I think that they don't like it either, so I think it should be removed. The second tiered- May I ask a question on that?

I think that where you're coating the rustic stone in the back, I think that should be coral stone. I think when you have the stucco here, I think that the whole building should turn the corner in stucco. And I think that you could do the coral stone on the far right where you have the rustic stone. As far as the facade, I think that the whole thing needs to be, you need to remove that awning, not awning, that eave, whatever that eave thing is, and those two black columns that you have marching down on this, which are hideous. So I think that the front, so remove all that. I would remove that

I mean, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to an overhang over that composition just in front of that. And I think that the whole planting that you have, I think that the whole planting to me, you should bring the level you have on the rear and turn it around in in two terraces so you can soften the blow of that stoop. You don't end up with a stoop and those marching railings on either side.

Because it will make the building sit on a terrace. So basically you turn them around into two terraces and then you incorporate the steps into the terracing on there. The right-hand side will be would be coral stone and then you would have glass and the front door all within one panel. And perhaps you can add an awning in there if you have to. I mean these are my recommendations. I know we never tend to do this, but I'm trying to. I'm trying to wrap it up in something that is a set of five things that need to be changed.

So I think, are those the conditions? Anything else? Okay. Okay. So the vote is to approve with those conditions and staff conditions. Madam Clerk, please call the roll.

I can just vote yes or no, but I just, you're on the oath, right? So I will feel comfortable if you make sure, if you say that this is going to be a residential property, and I'll vote yes.

Okay, then it's on the record, yes. Yes, it's fine.

Chair LeCour? No, I need this to come back to understand truly, but. Motion carries. You get it anyway, so congratulations.

Yep, no problem. Okay, we're moving on to 8935 Hawthorne Avenue, new single-family home.

It's very hot today. OK. Usually it's freezing cold up here. OK. Are we ready to reconvene? OK. Sorry, Scarlett. Go ahead.

Thank you. Thank you. Okay, anybody from the public? Seeing none, I'll open it to board comments.

Just on the back, if you can go to the back of the house. So the windows, especially on the bottom, well, that wall looks really flat compared to the front. The windows are a bit recessed. They're more to the back. So I don't know if it's the render or it's the design.

So on the back it's going to be... Would it be the same on the back then?

Same on the back, yeah. I think that helps a lot.

And I guess same with the other windows. Yeah, we could look at the plan, actually.

I mean, I would imagine that's, given the 360, that that would be the treatment of all the windows. That's right, yeah.

Yeah. Okay, recall? I don't know. Okay, Moses?

Okay. Carlos? I saved you for last this time.

She's punished the last day. She's punished me.

No, it's actually, let's talk about the, I think you added that window on the very top, which I think it looks so much better. That was a good move. I think that I still have a bit of an issue with the entryway. I think in one of the drawings, you're showing a planter in the plan. You can't really have the plane railing like that at that height, because it's not going to meet code. that railing is going up about, what, four feet, five feet? So you can't just have an open railing there going up five feet, because it's not going to meet code. So the problem I've had with this house always is how

at grade, but let's continue. Well, a planter at grade wouldn't make any sense there because it's behind a huge wall of steps. So I think that To me, we need to concentrate on the sequence of the... I'll make a suggestion to you, which I don't know if it fits your sensibility. I've always had a real problem with that wall of stone. I think it's... The house is so delicate and so... You know, it's a small house. It's like a little cutesy... It's a very cute, very sweet house. And I like... Everything on the right, I'm totally fine with. Then in your attempt to make it look different from the ot

I would also just say you've got some beautiful stone in the driveway. You've got a different stone on the steps and the base. You almost don't need a third material there for this home. I think what's, you know, it's actually the FAR of this home is max, right? So it's, this is sort of a prototype for a max FAR home. And I think it's that, I agree that wall just doesn't resolve. And I think what Carlos is proposing would,

it fixes it i the other question i have is what is the material at the end of the entry is that a window or is that a it's a window okay okay which i love i love that i love everything about it i think that you need to get rid of that rustic stone and keep on going the same stone you have everywhere else open that whole corner let that overhang fly and when you come out of the house you'll see a planter and up air it's yeah the way to go i agree it's a way to go what's your concern

I know, but you're not going over the sideline.

How far can you intrude in the side setback?

Is that what you're saying? It needs to stay exactly where it is, meet the rear of the volume, just let it fly there. And then so the planter is outside. It's not sitting within an awning. It's outside. So you can have, imagine, you can have cascading green on that side.

You need the planter to be at a certain height.

Well, that's what I mean. The planter will be the railing.

I'm not opposed to it. That's allowed by the code. There's ornamental, you know.

I leave it. I leave it. What I'm suggesting is the right thing to do. And I think it's also going to bring an immense more light into the house because that corner That entryway is going to be infinitely nicer because you're going to come out of the house and see a huge planter with plants there in open air.

Can we, speaking of plants, can we humor the tree lady and look at the disposition plan and the landscape plan, please? I think you're removing all the trees as well.

This is the old plan, by the way. You know that this is the old plan of the first house. Make sure that you know.

So I can't read that. Can you just help me understand what's staying and what's going? That's the landscape plan. Does it also include the disposition?

Uh-huh. Like the top left? The top right. Okay. Those are the only two staying. Why can't you preserve those large canopy trees in the side setbacks? And at the corners of the lot.

Yeah, let's look at the, okay, I'm getting confused between the new plan and the disposition.

Can't we work with some of the existing? I mean, I don't see why four, five, six, seven, 11, 12, 13, 14... 18, 19, why does all that in the perimeter need to go? That's just a natural green screen. I understand why one and two need to go. I understand why nine, 10, maybe even 12 need to go. But could we try to work with the rest?

Thank you. With those changes, I'm ready to move forward. Does anybody else have any other commentary? So I think it's just the adjustment to the removal of the stone wall, replacement with planter, and removal of the railing.

I think it's also to get rid of that rustic stone and continue with the same.

Right. the same uh stone treatment you have in the rest of the house well i thought you were saying remove that wall that stone wall entirely well you know below below the planter it has some texture so what that needs to be that needs one of the existing materials besides the rustic yeah so remove this rustic entirely from the material palette remove that wall replace with planter for railings and work with all surrounding trees except for one two 9, 10, and 12.

By the way, before we move on, if you were to have, I don't know exactly what the stepping is, but I think that the whole piece, the entry sequence, if you can have split it into, there we go, I think that Because we're going to have a planter there, and then you're going to have a step down. The way that step meets that needs to be where the planter is what needs to be. But you're still going to have a bit of a problem on the right-hand side, because you still have a need for railing on the right-hand side. Do you understand what I'm saying? So we still have an issue with how you're going to

I mean, I trust that you can solve it, but I'm just saying you still have that issue on the right-hand side. Listen, the front of the house is about the stairs, about the entrance sequence. That's your idea of the side one and the side entrance and all that. So the way that the stair and the entrance sequence is the project. You know what I mean? It needs to be really like a little jewel, like it's perfect. And I trust that you can do it, but I think by... Suggesting what we suggested immediately opens the possibilities to make the right move. And I trust you that you will.

One more thing. When I look at the rear elevations, I don't know what the... It's like you've... You see, I don't understand why this is so thinly drawn because the front windows are set back and beautifully... It's like Adrian was saying. You have beautiful bronze section. It's the wrong rendering.

Yeah, it's the wrong rendering. All the windows are going to be that recessed with a sill. Right, so...

I have a suspicion that... I have a lot of suspicions, but I'm just saying the back of the house... I'm sure the back of the house needs to match the front of the house. Yeah.

And the side, too. I mean, the treatment of the window. Right.

I'm saying it's the same. You're not going to let fall off the cliff with, like, what this looks like.

Yeah. Okay. So I think the conditions we've identified are making sure that the windows are treated the same way around 360 degrees of the house as they are on the front elevation. to remove the rock wall at the entry and treat that more with plants and openings, and to keep all trees possible, except obviously 1, 2, 9, 10, and 12 interfere with the site plan.

Sorry. Sorry. One more thing. You haven't solved the rear stair either. That perspective is not up to code, so I don't know how that's going to be solved, because that's not code.

It's going to have to meet code to be submitted to the building department.

No, I know, but I'm just saying, statically, you still have an issue with that one, too, that you should keep on working on both, and maybe making cohesive, so maybe they're the same treatment. Okay?

Okay. So does anybody want to make that motion? Staff conditions plus the conditions I just laid out.

I make a motion to approve with conditions.

Okay. Thanks, guys. It's been great working with you.

You've been great. Always a pleasure. You've been great.

All right, let's move on to our ordinances, of which we have none, and our next meeting date, which is May 28th. Maybe we'll see you there. Maybe we won't. And discussion items. We've moved 8A to the end, so let's talk about commercial awnings. And for that, I will ask our town planner to introduce it.

Okay, thanks. Does somebody, George, you want to speak?

Thank you. Board members, thoughts, comments? Carlos, I think this was your request. Do you want to open us up?

Yeah, that seems like some low-hanging fruit. It also, I mean, Scarlett did share the code with us. You know, the awnings, all awnings shall be without tears, holes, free of dirt, discoloration, fading. I mean, we have the code in place for those to be looking better. I think there's a code enforcement issue here. All right. Um, but I think we can still maybe up at a notch as well. And I think Carlos, your issue was more that we're looking at signs and on, and we're not looking at awnings.

Right. So I think that, I think that my issue with, with, uh, Harding is right now it's a combination of things because it's, it's some are incredibly, uh, poorly kept and the problem is that they paint the facade so the storefronts matching colors you know we have a beautiful i find that i show was found a very beautiful i mean i will blow up the whole thing and do it all over again we have a beautiful cohesive uh... downtown our downtown is actually quite beautiful the palm trees are really beautiful but you would know what happened to him i want to blow up half of this town to do it again b

Well, I'm trying to, I'm saying it's a package to me. It's the color of the storefront, but I don't know where the color of the stores falls into the guidelines of this town. I don't know, I don't think there's any guidelines for painting the commercial space. Right, it doesn't include the, so these people can literally paint their storefronts purple if they want to.

Sorry, it's a question to her. Scarlett. I don't know what the guidance are for her.

I know, but that's not enforced because this doesn't come in front of us. So who's going to enforce it? It's like saying nothing.

I know, but if they don't come in front of us, there's no way of compatibility. It's basically saying nothing.

Let's just put a pin in that. Marianne, did you want to speak? Come on up. State your name and address for the record.

Yeah, and I think that would probably apply to the awning as well. Yes, yes. Okay, that's a good point. Thank you. Thanks for sharing. You know, I don't know if there's a mechanism by which we can, you know, lump those, link those together. I mean, I understand the point they're making is it's one facade, and we're just opining on one little piece. would be really nice. I mean, usually these are new stores going in. They're doing tenant improvements. They're improving the inside and the outside. I mean, it's not a stretch to say, you know, your awning and your paint color are part of those imp

I mean, I think that what I was trying to gain is for the weirdest reason, we're looking at signs. I mean, if you have standards of how big these signs are and what you can do and the colors and that, why are they coming in front of us? I mean, why we're wasting our time with signs when we actually, what thing that impacts the street the most is the awnings, and that's what's catastrophic, and the paint of the colors, the color paint of the buildings. So I think that we can't just retroactively go back and force people to change their colors, but I'm saying if you come in front of us, a lot of

I would venture to say it's, you know, if they're going to change the exterior street-facing facade of a store, that that should come before us. Whether it's the color, the sign, the awning.

The glass, the storefront, you know. I think that, you know, it's the soul of our town. You know, we have a downtown. I mean, Coral Gables, they protect fiercely the downtowns and, you know, what things you can't do and cannot do, the planters. And I think that we have a laissez-faire... i think the palm trees are so beautiful and the street is so beautiful but when you look when you walk down and the experience of walking down it's so chaotic and so dirty and so it's not beautiful it's not beautiful and i think part of it is it's that randomness of it all so i think if we put a little bit of

Well, this code actually says that signs, that's prohibited. Awning signs or any sign printed on or attached to an awning or canopy is prohibited. So you can't put lettering and signage on a canopy or an awning, which is good. We need to add painting to that. You can't paint an awning. And then I think it's... I don't know who it's on, but I think what we're hearing from the board is we would like a holistic review of changes to retail facades that we think it's under our purview, and we'd like to understand how to make that part of our...

I think if you're going to open a building, are you going to make changes to the facade, a commercial, being the renter or being the owner? Yeah. We don't know.

what needs to come on the board the same way the renters, the one who comes here with the sign, it's not the owner, it's the renters who come in for the sign. I think they need to come with a whole packet. They're already showing the awning. Every time we see it, they're already showing an awning because they're probably putting a new awning. That's why they have it in the drawing because maybe even the same company is providing them the awning. So we're asked not to look at the awning, but the awning is in the drawing. So it's actually very simple. I'm saying where someone is presenting, it s

I think we need help from the planning group to understand what would need to change in the code to allow that to come before us. And then I think we probably want to consider a very brief style guidelines for the facades of the front. George?

But we're not on Worth Avenue. No, we're not. If you give him letters, you know what it's going to look like.

We have another issue. It's that a lot of the awnings touch each other. We have a situation which is very different from Worth Avenue, where you have beautiful storefronts where the audience sit within a facade. We have a dumpy little commercial spaces, and the audience are literally one next to each other, or very, very close to each other. So we don't have that stretch of awning that gives you breath where we know what we're referring to. So we have a lot of very, very tiny little storefronts.

a very cohesive streetscape. And we have an insanely beautiful string of palm trees marching down the street, which are the two key elements to make something beautiful. If you clean up the signs and you clean up the storefronts and the paints of the buildings and you clean up the awnings, it will be a jewel. You don't have to do... No one has to spend one penny more than they are. It's just it's not cohesive, and that's the problem. We're not asking them to spend money. We're asking to rule so it's all more cohesive. Because when... The two most expensive and more complicated things to have i

So a two-part, I think we need help understanding what it would take to make sure that these exterior facades are coming to us in the code. And then second, I think we do need to invest some time in design guidelines for the business district. And that's probably going to be a workshop, I think, a separate workshop. And maybe we'd like to invite the new commission to do that, or we can start and then present something to the commission.

Yeah, but let's just add that, you know, I think the future discussion items tracker, it's, you know.

We start a conversation, I think, in the right, we're moving the conversation to the right.

Yeah, let's add it, though, so it's still hanging there for the future board, you know, review, design review board role, and then design guidelines for retail. One more? Yeah, and then we'll move on to the next discussion. Okay.

There's responsibility of all kinds with owning property.

When you own property, you have responsibility. So that's why you pay taxes. Yeah. I mean, I don't care what they have to say.

Okay. Thanks. Okay. Anything else on that item? Or can we move to fencing and landscaping? Okay. Let's move on. Fencing and landscaping.

Carla, you're more blonde today. Are you? You are. Got it. Noticed. It's so warm back here.

That seems like an easy code change, right?

and then we could add except when considering the maximum height of a fence the wider side is considering the front or i would i think we'd almost just want to say wherever the front door is that's the front because some of the corner lots do have the front door on the smaller side yes so that i think you just want to align the entry the front entry not to have a six this is where the problem is we talked about something scarlet today about this uh

This is the issue. It's actually wrong. Most bulk house houses have the front door, like mine, on the long side.

No, they don't. And the county code requires it. Remember, we had this whole conversation. We wanted to change it to the side. Then that was out of alignment with, it's actually the smaller side. So that's just the reality of the code. We're going to have to work around it for fences.

So since that's what the code says, which it's not the way it is, what we talked about doing was the fact that This all came about when that corner house on Harding and 88th Street ended up putting a six foot fence in front of the house, making a cage, okay? So I lost my cool. I went to see her. I said, what the hell is going on? Because it looked like a pig's thigh. And she expressed very well that it's the code. It's allowed to do it. So she was right and I was wrong. And this is when I came out to realize, whoa, right, because that's the side of the house. So we can't allow people to put up

That's the distinction right there. Is the front as where the front door is versus what code says should be the front setback.

Right, so the parenthesis we have to do, it has to do with fencing. So that's what we're talking about, how to regulate for the fencing. Not for, we're not gonna change that part of the code. We need to, so how to handle, We can't allow people to put a six-foot fence along their front door. That's just, we can't. All the bulkhead houses would have a wall of, it would be a prison of fences all around the end. So that's where the code says that we need to have a clause that's saying that somehow we need to stop that from happening again.

Yeah, the challenge with that then is you're telling somebody who has their back or side yard that they can't put a six-foot fence there either. So, I mean, I think we're either moving to a code where only interior boundaries can have a six-foot fence and anything street-facing cannot, which is probably a better way to do it, because I think what we're saying is...

Absolutely right. That's what we need to do. Yeah. So, there you go. Anything that faces the street cannot have a six-foot fence. Right.

You can have a six-foot fence. You can have a four-foot fence.

But you can put a fence and a hedge like I have.

I know, but you have a fence and you have a hedge in front of the fence. My hedges are, you could have a hedge that's 10 feet.

But by code, if you have a pool, the code says that it has to be six feet, right?

Yeah, you have to have a second barrier, but it's not, I don't think it has a... I don't think it has to be six feet. Yeah.

I think we can make a, I mean, if that fence is enclosing, I don't know, a pool area or something like this, it could be a bit, there could be an exception for... for enclosing a pool area or something that it's, because the only reason why you need a six-foot fence is you have a pool. Why else would we have a six-foot fence?

No, but in the front of the house. I'm not talking, around the house.

I have, my pool is on the side of my house just like yours. I have a, my wall is two feet. I have a hedge. Not four, it's two. It's two feet. The whole corner of my house, the wall is two feet. I have, behind it, I have a hedge. I don't need to, I mean, a hedge stops me from, I don't have to fence it with, I'm not going against you, but I'm saying I have the same condition. My pool is on the side of my house. But we need to stop people from.

your pet would jump a four-foot pen? It's a circus dog.

Listen, we can't have people putting a six-foot fence, a six-foot fence in front of the house. You will be able to put a six-foot fence all around the front of your house.

But you just fenced the side of the house where the pool is. You didn't fence across. You just fenced that.

I know, but around the perimeter, if you have a self-closing gate, all you need is four feet. You don't need anything higher than four feet to meet code for safety for a pool. It's four feet.

For the interior, but for the- Well, the interior or the exterior, whatever barrier you have. You don't need two fences. You could just have one.

If the height of the latch is not the height of the fence.

But the challenge is that in the instance that it started all this, the front is the front facing Harding and the side is the side facing the street. And both sides of those have a six foot fence.

Nicole, it's very clear. The house on the corner of 88th Street and Harding is a perfect example where this is all brought back. These people put in a six-foot fence all around the front of the house. Basically, they caged in the house with a metal fence, to me, which was an abomination. But since that's the side of the house, it's allowed, because you're allowed to build a six-foot fence on the side of the house. So this brought about that, technically, everyone in the bulkhead houses like yours and like mine, I could put up a cage of six feet all across the front of the house.

So what if we just said you can't put a six-foot fence on the facade that houses your main entrance to your house? Would that get most of the way there? You basically need to align your main entrance.

I know, but then if you are on 88th Street and you enter on the side, on the short end of 88th Street, you can still put a six-foot fence on the side.

having not six feet on any street facing road i'm just trying to accommodate what you know the concern is no i think six feet is too high okay so that's all we're saying is you just can't have it be six feet you could put a four foot all the way around your property but nicole but shouldn't they be hidden also nicole so you get an idea i'm six two so six feet is here to me it's too high it's a cage it's it's it's i think further and have them landscape they have to landscape in front of the fence

I mean, right now, do you recall what it says about landscaping? I know that we encourage that. I don't think it's required.

All we know is there's a 50% opacity requirement.

So, I mean, that does line up the height of the fence with the height of the hedge in the street-facing facades, if we were to make that change.

I'm all for saying that you cannot have anything higher than a four-foot fence in any side of a house that faces the street. I think there's no read for it. Yeah, I agree. I don't see an excuse. I mean, in her case, she'll work, you know, we'll work it out. You know what I mean?

No, but people don't understand what six feet is. Six feet is really tall.

Just like this to me. Okay, so I think we, do you understand where we're going with this? Can you bring back a proposed amendment to the code?

And sorry to interrupt, but I'll finish it with this. Again. It has to do with the size of a lot. If you were in Mid Beach or somewhere where you have bigger lots, you have a whole swathe of green in front of it and that fence is all the way back in their house. These fences are literally right up out to the street. That's what happened with the house on 88th Street. That fence is a few feet from the curb. So we don't have. We don't have any way of masquerading this thing. So imagine all these houses and people want to cage in these houses. We can't stop them from doing so.

The only exception I think we should consider is for street houses fronting Harding Avenue. I think they should be allowed to have a six-foot fence on that side.

It's just that I guess, yeah, it's only the corner lots that...

You don't want to drive down Harding with these cages everywhere. I mean, they're already paved. All of Harding already is already paved. Imagine a cage and the pay. They're going to do it anyway.

So I think we're proposing to limit the height of fences to four feet on any street frontage. So that would be the code change. maybe we can recommend that that be taken to City Commission for a first reading Commission see how that goes mm-hmm what do you think Jerry yeah okay all right let's keep going adoption of surf sides design guidelines we heard they were adopted

Thank you again to everybody for their input on that. That was a big piece.

Yeah, I don't know. You're just sporty today.

I forgot there was a meeting. Do you know anything about women?

You were in bed? Yeah. You were watching TV?

I think that I heard the first thing they're going to do is kick me out of this commission. That's what I think is a middle finger. Well, they said it to my face, so yes, it is true.

But George, I think you bring up a good point. I think, you know, if I am reappointed to the board, I would welcome a conversation, an opportunity to present the rationale to the new commission, sit down with them and explain all the many years of work that have gone into that revision. I think they more than deserve that, and we'd be happy to do that.

Listen, we all want the same thing, which is the most beautiful and the best town possible. I hope that everyone who comes into the mix feels the same way, because we do, and we worked really hard. I mean, this is pretty intense, what we've done here, so...

And thank you, George, for all your constant input and guidance. Yes. We cut you off. Did you have anything else you wanted to add? You were asking a question.

It would be great if we could bundle it up since it's been passed. That's a big one.

So when does that... How long do we have to wait for the design guidelines then?

Yes. Okay, are we talking like a year? Are we talking two months? I will have to check with the clerk just because we just did one recently.

In the meantime, hopefully it's posted on the website under the planning department and people can have it.

Okay, thank you. Anything for future discussion items? It's kind of a moot point tonight, so we'll just keep that hanging, and if you can add the items about the awnings and stuff there, that would be great. Okay, all righty, everybody. Well, thanks, thank you for your participation, and hopefully we see each other again soon.

Well, we're neighbors, so one way or the other.

What are we getting? What is the gift? What is the gift? What is the gift? What are we getting? Oh, the thermos? Oh, wow.