Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

um open. However, we are all going to treat each other with the highest level. So, with that in mind, yeah, Debbie, it has to be helping us. Okay. Good. And um with that in mind though so that we can get it we would ask you to either come and sit down up here with us and if you have questions or comments so that we can make sure the recording okay yeah let's put a few chairs up here and

and people can uh come and sit down and join us and And and if you're not up here talking, doesn't mean you're not included. Please, by all means, come up and and join in if you need to at any time, okay? Or if you want if if questions are asked and we want them answered uh by department head or something like that, she would invite them to come up and do the same. Are we good, Lindsay? Yeah. So with that in mind, um, one quick thought, okay,

I think I I say this kind of at work, too, and I think it's applicable here. Um, you know, we're we're we've been elected to to help out, but it's us, the community against the problem, right? And so I love that you're here and involved and it's us against the problem and and so we're we're excited to hear your feedback.

We're all in it together. We're all trying to solve the same problem. We're on the same team, all of us. So, and I'm I get a little bit concerned over some of the discussions and comments that take place outside of the chamber here. As far as um I don't I honestly don't feel there's a person here that has bad intent. We want to make this city a better place to live. And so um our society and um even on a national level it can feel like there's people on this side and people on this side and they're trying to run agendas. I don't feel there's any agendas here but that's that's on my level that's how I feel about the citizens how I feel about our employees and how I feel about this city council. So, with that in mind, we'll go ahead and get started. Um, Brian brought up a lot of questions, so we're gonna invite Brian to come up here and sit down and um and he go over a lot of the data that he had brought up. Good. And so, um, and kind of go over some data. Our our job is to find a way to make our budgets work within Tmont City. And since day one put in, we have been looking for opportunities and we've identified quite a few of them. Um, it's going to take time, but we're working on that. So, with that in mind, um, what questions does the city council have for Brian on his open first?

You bet. Okay. Um, this is from the state auditor on the on the transparent uh website and her name is Kina Canon. She said it best when transparency isn't just about compliance about building trust with the people we serve. From a citizen's perspective, that trust comes when the numbers we're reviewing are not only available, but accurate, consistent, and present in a way that truly reflects how tax dollar knowledge are being used. In that spirit, I want to acknowledge that we've done already identified and corrected one error and through further review realized another one related to how tree and garland was separated despite being a unified police structure. That correction is still in progress. and there may be other minor human errors. However, the data itself comes directly from reported sources. I was going to be clear about my intent. This wasn't done to upset anybody or to put a target on anyone's back or have a target on my back. My goal is simply to open the door for productive conversation. A dialogue, not a debate. I've been transparent about where the data comes from. I encourage everyone and anyone to review it, to validate it, and come to their own conclusions. This is not Brian's data. is the city's data as reported to the state. What I have done is organize it and present it in a way that makes sense to me and hopefully it makes it clear and more useful to you as well. If not, then please forgive me. At the end of the day, it is simply data draw drawn from reported sources I have access to. They're all they're all there for us to examine, understand, and discuss together because beyond spreadsheets, the most important part is that we're having this discussion by looking at the facts clearly and openly. we build a better city, a stronger community, and building trust requires more than just showing the numbers. It requires a willingness and a courage to talk about them. In my experience, people often focus on just one side of the equation, either revenue and taxes or expenses. But both sides matter, and

there are multiple ways to work through the numbers and arrive at the same conclusions. At the end of the day, it's math. And yes, that math has real impacts on our city and the decisions we make. The reason I brought this tuna is because I like tuna sandwiches. I like my tuna sandwiches with pickles. I like water in my water tuna. I don't like oil. And the data I got is just like this tuna. You may like oil tuna. You may like tuna with mayonnaise miracle, but I can't when I buy this, I'm just assuming that it's tuna. I don't know that there's dolphin because right here it says dolphin sale, but at one point we all know that dolphins was in this, but I bought this as tuna. And so when I look at the data, I look at tuna. I'm not looking at dolphins or something else inside that. So when I access that data online, I access the tuna. I didn't access and look at anything else besides the data. I'm a data guy. I look at data. And if it has tuna, if it has dolphins in it, I didn't buy it for I didn't buy it because it had dolphins in it. I bought it because it's tuna. And you guys might have other you might like your sandwich different than mine. Mine. That's great. I I respect that. because I don't like probably some of the things you like.

I actually hate Yeah. You like Oh, definitely. Dill got to be deal. But anyway, that that's that's that's how I access the data. That's how I believe it. It made sense to my brain. If it doesn't make sense to your brain, great. You guys organize the data to it makes sense to your brain. Well, but I think data needs to be data and support absolutely 100%.

And support exactly what we're all all after. And so I think that's what we're trying to do is making sure that our apples are versus apples and we're all headed in the same direction. So for you to take the time to go through and find some of this and bring some of this to question is admirable and we thank you for doing that and we would encourage any citizen to do that. Yeah, I agree. We've been asking for it. If there's feedback that you have, we want Right. Okay. So, I shut these doors. Yeah. I don't think we're allowed.

It's a public meeting, so we're not allowed to, but shut up. We could shut one up. Okay. If you want to move your chair forward a little bit more, you're welcome to, but we'll try to speak a little louder for you. Okay. Thank you. So that there were there were a few questions brought up on your data with um various things. Does anyone have any questions they want to start on? I I thought I thought well I thought we was just talking about budget. I didn't think we was talking about payroll. So I didn't bring any payroll stuff. I have a lot of questions on the revenue side.

Okay, that's what I brought. I would love to zoom in. Let's talk with Brett. Brett's got a question. I've got I got several questions. One, what's the disclaimer on the bottom of that website you took from uh didn't didn't read it, but I didn't but guess what? I have reached out to this this auditor. Okay. And I says and I addressed your concern to her. And what did Tina say? She hasn't hasn't come contacted me back yet because this mind and your conversation just happened last two days. Okay. I was hoping I would get something back this morning. I'll but I have not. I'll text her later.

Okay. Um the disclaimer at the bottom says that that the information contained here in has not been audited or if you take that into consideration. Okay. That's the city. That's the city and you guys. No, no, no. That is the that is the state auditor. I know. I No, I get that. But I all I have access is to rent. That is not all you have access to. You have access to that's all I have access resources. Do you have the chief's phone number? I do. But lieutenant's phone number. I Okay, so I did grandma request for grandma request. This is my question. No, I don't want to question.

This is this is the data I got. If you find part of the data you got that's all the No, it's not. Okay. It's not the we can agree on history. Why do why do you come to the city council to give more information, right? We can do a disagree, right? Part of data collection. Can we disagree? Agree to disagree. Agree to disagree. Oh, I think we're I think it's pretty obvious we're in disagreement. Okay, then let's agree. We're disagreeing.

Agree. We're just No, there's nothing because there's you've made you've made claims that are inaccurate that paint the department in a poor light and there's going to be Brian there's going to be an accountability for that. So look at the data. I'm just okay the data I also know I looked at the one that you looked at. I looked at five years worth of stuff and I had I looked at actually 14 years worth of stuff from Tmont City. All the data, all everything. And you didn't think to ask anybody in the city that Why would I? It's my tuna. What do you mean? It's tuna. Did you read the rest of the label? Did you just

I did the same right there. So, you didn't take it as just tuna. You checked to make sure other things were on there. Hang on. Hang on. So, it's not the same because I I I wanted to bring I'm a visual learner. We need to respect the mayor's position. I'm a visual learner, so I I I look at visual things. So, the thing here, we're going to have disagreements. Okay. And that's okay. And I departments are people are going to feel like the data may not be accurate

and that's fine. And I've put together information. I've got on the internet. I've done stuff. I've come with my data. and after other data has been added to it, I can see that it wasn't completely validated. That's okay. I learned from that. You'll learn from that. We'll all learn from that. Um, we need to make sure that we take your data and we take our data and we validate it, bring it together and present the facts. And that's what to do. And so if some of your data that you It's not my data. It's transparent data off of the transparency website which

which is the city data that's reported that the city reports I'm assuming the police officers report to the city. The city reports it to the state. All I do is take the state data. Correct. What I found when I've gotten on those websites is some the difference between cities is there method reporting and so it could end up showing my fault. Is it can I can I ask you an all question on the data was it was clearly a cloud prompt because it was an anthropic output. It it's not it was a it was actually chat GBT and Gemini perlexity perplexity I can't remember how pronounced it and uh I use about five different cloud is one

which I love but AI I I used about five different curious is it possible that there was a translation layer in between I don't know could be that's why I said that's why he says if the wrong please forgive I'm not I'm not beholden to the data. Well, so that's what I'm I'm curious is like, you know, I I think I think for for for me the current the only current friction I feel I love truth. Let's just go get truth. Exactly.

I don't I love your report. In fact, I've been suing on okay like I love it. where where I think the the friction comes in this experience that we've had so far is that I was going to ask a bunch of follow-up questions in our meeting on Wednesday and I didn't because I wanted to go do some research, make sure and then together let's figure this out. Well, between then and now it got posted on Facebook. some words were probably misrepresented about intention. Um, that's what

specifically you referred to to my Christian taxation. You did you you said a city council said taxation, but the way you said it was was out of context um of what was actually said. That's why I let everybody know, hey, go back and research yourself. Right. Right. But and I thought you agreed with the taxation and then I do agree with you the taxation but I believe there's other threw it out that I believe there's other avenues going. So it's kind of like the if we go back to the reference like you I' I've said it several times there's a picture of of the the prince getting out of the car and from the side

it looks like he's flipping someone's off. But when you look at the front picture, it was actually him asking for three people in the taxi. And I felt like your post was really a villainization of city council and the things we're doing without validation. So I I want to go dive in. Let's dive in. But if you go look at the comments on Facebook, it felt like more of an identity fulfillment than anything rather than a true. And I know you, Brian, and it it caught me off guard. And that's why I'm just I'm I'm excited about this because But I do think the public deserves the reality.

I do too. I And that's why to just say there's 2.6 million without discussion and diving in first. How can you not? Now, the public mistrust city council and and I don't feel like it was a a an avenue that was benefiting both of us when we're on the same team. It felt more sorry that came I'm sorry I came across that way because that is not my intent in any way, shape or form comments how you feel it came out. Was it the result whether it was your intent or not? I don't think that that was the result. Brian, can I ask you a question? Sure. You're running for county auditor, correct? Correct.

Is this how you would do a county audit is just asking some questions without validation? I go to the source. That's why that's why I went to the source which is you went through a source. If you audit something, you audit the source or the source. But I get I get I get what you're saying. How you audit? Yes, it is how you audit. I've done those and I've been audit one single source and No, but that's all the the sources are available to me. That is not on.

I get what you're saying. I really do. I really get you what you're saying. Please let me finish. Okay. Please let me finish. Okay. Go for it. Okay. The way that you audit something is that you look at all the matrix and I'm not even a finance guy. And I know I've been around government long enough to know how audits are done. I' I've been through in in other businesses. I've been through IRS audits. I know how the IRS audits. and they don't look at just one single source. The problem is that you have you have multiple avenues available to you to verify the things that are that are taken off one single site. And my problem is that you one, you didn't do that. Two, you took things massively out of context and you didn't even seek to seek what the context was. Like on this one, the paid spike or paid lease spiked 84%. Did you even look at why?

No, because you got to take into account. That's not my question. It should be a special. No, no, no, Brian. I'm just a citizen right now. I'm a citizen. You're a citizen running for an auditor position, but not for the city. For the county, which not for the city? I'm the citizen of this city and I was looking at this city's data, then I would hope that you would take the the same methods that you would want to use as a county auditor and employ that in a in a discussion like this. And I'm really disappointed that you didn't do that. Okay. I didn't take the context. And now, and here's where it leads me, Brian, and I'm going to be honest with you.

Because you refuse to look at the context, how can I take seriously anything else that that you present in that document? How can I how can I trust that everything else that you put in there is accurate? when when these pretty significant things were grossly inaccurate. How can I trust that? That's I would hope and I'll leave you to say I would hope that everybody you're saying grossly inaccurate. There are accuracies.

I would I would hope everybody in this room would go take a look at that data and see what how what your conclusion is. Just like my tuna, see if your tuna needs pickles on it. See if your tuna needs mayonnaise. I hate tuna. then you hate him. But you know, then go then go look with a ham sandwich. Everybody needs to look at the data. And that's all I'm saying. The data that the data it's about truth, Brian. It's not true. The data says there is six detectives. Well, you know that that's not true though. I know that that you say that and I believe you 100%. Okay. So,

but that is still with that. But that's what it says. That's what it says. enough. What Brian presented was data. Okay, we need to go through and clean the data up and and find out what's accurate, what's not, and then come back and either use it to our benefit or defend the data. Um I would ask in the future you allow us the chance to do that. That's all. instead of um with this data and all that. That's why that's why I addressed it in city council meeting. I know. I know.

I would rather this type of conversation than over social media than over anything else over phone, over text or anything. I want to look in everybody's eyes. I want you to look at my eyes and to realize I am not trying to deceive anybody. I am not trying to to hide things. I am not trying to do anything other than just present the present the data. So I'm just meeting I just presented the data that I found and I will hope everybody in the beginning. I hope everybody looks at that data.

We scheduled this meeting right after city council as a way to say look I think you found some truth here. Let's go dive in together. That's the problem. And so that's why I was caught off guard to see it posted as fact. And you know, I just posted my phone what I what I presented that looks like this, you know. So, but in this I presented the same the same information I did in this meeting or in the city council meeting. Nothing different. The exact same. Okay. So, with that in mind, what did you think from that question? Do you know I want to say something?

I've sit here and I've listened and I've listened and I've listened and the bottom line is we can do better with this budget. And if he has called something out or any area out that we should start looking at, stop the bickering and start going to work.

That's how I look at it because we have problems in our budget. I go through it and I've gone through it since 2019. It's the same thing over and over and over again. We can do better and that is what we have been given the charge to do. I don't know about a lot of you, but I worked for every stinking rotten penny I've ever had in my life. I was not born with a gold spoon in my mouth. I worked for everything. I went to school with holes in my pants and holes in my shoes all the time knowing that my mother was doing the best she could do under the circumstances she was living in. I did not have the fancy clothes. I did not have the fancy cars. I didn't have the fancy house. I'm on the other side of the fence as most of you. And there are a lot of residents in this town that are on that same side of the fence. And when we just think about the biggest bane for bucks, when we just think about, oh, we've got to raise this budget. We I'm sorry, you're doing it the wrong way. And if you disagree, I don't really care right now because we have a problem and we have been given the charge to make a change and that's what we need to do. Yes, it's going to hurt. Not everybody's going to agree with everything, but we have a budget. We live within that budget and we don't stretch that budget to where we are in trouble. I'll take the civic center for an example if you don't mind here. There were needed repairs that were not in the budget. Had we not had reserve, the employees would have been running around in rain slickers and hazmat suits. We have to have that reserve. We cannot strap ourselves so thin that there's nothing because yeah, they went way over their budget. But what were they supposed to do? They had to do it. And that's why we're

having these conversations. They're going to be painful. No one area is completely correct. But when we discredit what people are trying to do to help out, that's where we fall short. But we're going to do those based on fact and truth and by the honest analysis of what or the analysis of what it says, not just we we can't legislate based off.

We can't legislate off. We have to legislate off the actual numbers and everything that we do. We have to look at it in the context that it was because you just look at it that like you just brought up the you know the it was way over budget in in building whatever and so you know did we build the Taj Mahal without telling no because the context of it was a faulty roof that's alluding to

and so the context matters and asking that question that extra layer of questions hey this was over in this what was the reason for it oh we needed a new rook okay that makes sense. Now I understand my gripe and granted I'm I'm emotional about I'm I'm charged at this point. My gripe is that that that the analysis for context in the in what was brought up was never sought. That can't happen. Then that's why we're here. That can't happen. Let's let's listen to what he has to say and then we 2.6 in revenue. That'd be amazing.

I agree too. I think it's faulty data, but I'm excited to dive in. And here's the most important thing. We've asked citizens to get involved.

Brian has done that. And other citizens are going to do that. They're going to present us with data that may not be as accurate as we feel it is. But we need to listen and we need to encourage people to come in and talk to us and present that data so that we can have these discussions in the court because I think that's what we're going to learn and and I think with Brian's data and with everything we have if we can bring that together and start go through it together we can come up with some good solutions. Um I would just ask the citizens to please come in and work with us. That's that's the thing that I think is the most important and then we can start to answer questions together and I think we can accomplish a lot together as citizens and as a city council and as a as members of the city. So

can I just jump in just maybe to help show some where both people have a point. We talk about accuracy. So I just went out to transparent Utah which is where you pulled your data from. It's a site that I'm very familiar with. We're responsible for reporting in there. And I was like, I wonder how many detectives it says we have in here. It says six. His number is accurate.

Now, I forgot your name. Brent, thank you, Brent. I am so sorry. To Brent's point, one of those detectives, the salary, the wage is very, very, very low. They only worked here part of the year. That position actually doesn't exist anymore. Because it was replaced by somebody else. And so we go from six now to five. That kind of helps. But that's I wish that decision I wish See, there's other ways you can look at that. So, so you had six. This is yearly data that somebody from the city put in. I assume I don't know

it comes. So if you you may have had one one five detectives and one and one left was or was only here for a short period of time like what you just said. Or you may have had somebody get bumped up to a detective toward the end of the year, but you still got to report the whole year. Correct. But you have this is this is where Frank is saying we have to analyze what's in that data. I agree and understand I'm praying for you just to let me explain my point please. Oh yeah I agree with you though. I'm just let me know. I agree with you.

So what happens is the the website has on a raw portion information but that information then has to be refined by analysis. Agreed. one of these detectives only that's labeled as a detective only actually works with the school. Okay. again and and this is you don't have to answer just this this is where

the analysis of what national data says as a detective versus what is practically happening and how they're labeled according to state requirements because the state has very specific requirements that we have to meet that doesn't necessarily match national data and this is where some of that analysis needs to happen so mayor I I absolutely agree we need the questions But we need the questions. You're absolutely right. I was by his documentation. But what we need now is that ability to say, okay, so where does the truth, right?

Where are the current conditions lying? Let's not get so caught up in what one piece of data says. Because by the way, so the public knows, I'm a professional auditor. That's what my career is. I actually can site auditing standards to you that as a professional I'm required to do. Okay.

No, I don't rely on one piece of data. No, data is a tool that then we have to do and the council needs to ask questions to clarify so that it does get flushed out because yes, we need to flush this out. So when it comes to data, I can report to the city council. No, the city does not have six detectives. It is something less than that.

So just just to clarify the point as we're anal as we're analyzing, please let's ask questions. We'll we'll find we'll find additional information, additional clarifying factors for you and we will follow appropriate standards in doing so. And so, right, I think what we want to do is we want to take your data and we want to find out what we can use in that to accomplish the goals that we're we're looking at. That's what I want. Thank you. And um let's move forward with that. And can I say one more thing?

So, all I did is take it from transparent.gov, which you just, you know, everybody's familiar with, and I'm comparing apples to apples from transparent Utah.gov. I'm not digging in to anything else. I'm just using and then I've taken those eight cities and compared them to the ninth city, Tmont. And so that whatever that says, that's how I compared it. Okay.

Now, I like I told you guys earlier, I screwed up and broke Garland apart from Truman and everything. 100% in everything. forgot that it's a unified police department. So those numbers are going to be a little bit skewed. I realize that. That's why I told you at the very first that I realize there is a problem there. Okay. One thing too is if we done nine cities and like even the detectives more of that stuff, little things, but out of them nine cities, how much of them n other eight cities is their data skewed from? Who knows? But it's it's why we need that. I'm going to shut up.

Clarify. I mean, that's why you say there's six, we say there's two. Okay, now we're What's next? It's two. It's obviously No, I'm just saying that's what we're going to do. Go through. But if we can find two million bucks, I in my two years, I' I've looked up stuff. I've been here when other people brought up Christy when she was s they bring up something. Hey, there's a charge we could do here to save this money. And there's been about half of them that we already do that. Curtis goes, "Oh, yeah. We already do that and this thing, so we can't do it here." And that's how we're You think you found that? No.

So big. No, no. Me, if I'm coming up with something, I think I found something. The encourage goes, "Oh, yeah. We already do that." Oh, okay. So, that's where we're at there. Some of that might already be being done and but I agree. But like I would ask them to go through the process as we find that maybe this is what was framed online that you'd have the same integrity to go show that it was actually this. These are the real facts. This is what I found.

So you don't go to the grocery store and get Bill and I for being the guy that wants to raise taxes when my actual goal is to decrease them somehow. So, you know, just I just hope that you would have the same integrity as we move forward to tell the truth with what we find. I thought I thought I thought I thought that I thought that's what I was doing. I didn't think there was anything in what I said and what I did that was not upstanding and correct. I did I didn't try to twist any data. I didn't try to, you know, do anything to offend. I am excited for your next post to be honest.

When I when I responded that was not my intent when I responded that it was inaccurate. We only had two detectives. What was your response? I knew I knew your response was

we need to you'd agree that that the thing that it need the police department needs to be audited and we can agree that that I should have access to all the pay. I know where the data came from on this and separated out 84h hour pay periods versus 80our pay periods because detectives are on 80. That's why it kicked over. It doesn't give them that classification. it because our patrol guys are on 84 hour work work schedules. Okay, so that's that's how the system breaks that out. I didn't get not even a hey, you know what, that was that was my bad. I should have taken that into account. It was further villainization of then the police department's hiding the input from the state or the city's hiding the input from the state. and I said, "I think that the city needs that we need a full third party forensic audit of of everything so that we know where where we're going from." And your response was, "Okay, then let's get started." There was there was no part of any of your posts or follow posts that said, "Hey, you know what? Me and Cop, but my I I did this. I didn't mean to villainize it. Was that's why I'm so heated this morning, Brian. Sorry, but I'm on behalf of 19 other guys that feel like we we've had this target put on our back when we've gone through and there's there's reasons. Look, me and Eric being killed destroyed our budget. Destroyed it.

Well, destroyed our leave. We had four babies born within what, gee, a month and a half of each other. Yeah. And parental leave. So, so we got guys taken together on Saturday. is not the 26 data. I only went to 25. No, this is in 25. Yeah, but isn't this spring of 25? These are the numbers that you're that you're citing. And look, we've had this 584% increase in in sickly or sickly usage and everything like that. Yeah. After they were dead, we grieved. We still grieved. When the babies were born, we had guys taken off so they could be as it should be. That's the context. But your report didn't frame that. That's why I'm so hot.

I apologize for that. That's why I'm hot. I just And why 20 of us are hot. I I just looked at it like this, okay? Please don't do that in the future. I looked at it like this. You have transparent Utah. You had the whole state of Utah. Everything's reported to that. I assumed it was all all the disclaimer at the bottom of the front. I get that. But I'm just saying that's what they they put it out there for a reason. They put it out there for a reason, but they put the disclaimer for reason. I I get that. I'm saying all I'm saying is make the fine print on the on the two. That's why I turn back to that data. We need to have support interrupting each other. People have So, okay. From now on, let's let's all make sure we don't interrupt each other.

With that in mind, we want to move forward. We want to move forward. Okay. And we want to use any I had a wise man tell me once that when you sit down and you take on data and you take on criticism, take the information that's important and run with it. That's what we need to do. And so let's identify what is information is important here and let's see what we can do to get some money back to our citizens and run the city. And so do that. And with that in mind, where should we start? I would love to do

you have a question. Can I say something on my last comment? Uh, you just said, "Let's give the money back to the citizens." That's how I feel I do every day is I work hard to take the money that's given to us and give it back to the citizens in the way that they've expected me to do in the way that they've hoped I would do. Yes. So be careful in your wording about giving back to the citizens because I spend many hours off book working hard to give to the citizens. Well, I think our employees, you know, that's giving back to the citizens, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Um, like your department does a phenomenal job of giving a lot more back to the department than back to the citizens. Who is she? Yeah. She Oh, sorry. I'm Jenny, the senior center director. Okay. So, yeah. So, thank you. Thank you, Jenny. So, revenues. I want to dive in. Where's the revenues? Yeah, revenues. There's 2.6. Let's go get it. What do we not know? You know, I I don't know what I I Okay, again, all I did was go to these other all the nine cities, try to access all the data that I could.

Yeah. And but this is one that I think this in my mind is a little questionable because it has to do with parks and wrecks. So that's what I'm trying for the 1.5 million. I don't know. I'm looking at utilities, parks, and courts. One on your on your report. You had four I'm looking at that's actually part 4B.

4B. Okay. Because it should be this and this is just breaking it out in parks and wreck, nothing else. And it's it's looking at all nine cities and comparing them against each other. That's all it does. Nothing else. Okay. So it lists in all these nine cities, it lists baseball, soccer, football, volleyball, pickle ball, dance, gym, rentals, and events. Okay, if you go down down down the list from the from the highest to the lowest, you got Garland at 50, Tmont at 50, and Logan at 75 in baseball. Okay, soccer 50 to 45 across the thing. Football 60 to 50 or sorry 60 to 45. Volleyball 70 to 50. Pickle ball 40 to 25. Dance 50 to $30. Rentals and this is the buildings and everything else the parks and everything else 60 to 35. Events 30 to $20 across the whole spectrum. Tremont sits right there. And if you add all those up of what we are, we're at 315 for all those fees. Okay, the lowest one is 305. The highest one is 435 on all those fees. All I did was I says, "Okay, let's look at that and let's put it somewhere in the middle, closer to the middle. Let's jump it to 345." So, we're jumping it from 315 to 345. $30. So, we raised a few fees in there and jumped to 30 bucks. In that you have this is estimated from basic on thing you have enrollment anywhere from 50 baseball and soccer softball is 600

sorry baseball softball 600 soccer is about 800 flag football is about 350 volleyball is about 250 pickle ball is about 100 dance and gymnastics about 150 rentals is 50 and non-resident s non-resident search charge we have we don't do anything there but we have approximately 460 from what I could find on everything so you got a roughly about 2300 enrollment if you change the fees so that you know and you and you times it all out that's basically $14,950 the biggest fee would be the red non-residents which again that I get we are the hub of this valley and that might be a tough goal but if you raise everything you just get five bucks here we're talking 30 bucks on the total thing and it will raise approximately 1500 almost $15,000. Okay,

we'll have Zach look into those. Okay. Then you take uh um he is the president expert. What's that? He is our expert on if you want. I don't care. It's up to you. I think it's I think more I I want to be careful that we're not in here defending what we're doing more as we're listening and then taking it back and saying, can we apply these ideas? 30 bucks is all we're at. Yeah. So, mayor, you said you want to focus on what's important. I just want to I just want to make sure I we try to accomplish that goal. Yeah.

So, $15,000 compared to 2.6 million is like an incredibly small percentage that I don't even want to try to calculate. We may want to focus on some of the larger items. I think if you focus on some of the smaller ones and then the largest. It's fine. I mean, I'm just How long is it? Um, well, we can take probably another 45 minutes. I know you need to leave a little early, but I can I think I can be done if we don't have a, you know, if you can just let me push through it really fast. Okay. I mean, I'm okay with questions though. If Z got questions, I'll just I'm okay. If anybody out there's got questions, I'm okay with that. I just if you want me to just push you, I can already push you.

Yeah. We'll take your data and we'll we'll bring it back to the department heads and say, "Hey, where can you apply any of these?" That's that's the discussion I want. Okay. Okay. This is animal control. Um, if you look at dog license, I don't I'm not sure what dog fixed and dog intact is, but that everybody lists them different. State.

That's what I figured, but I wasn't sure. Um, Tree Mountain is a 10. The highest one is a 20. Uh, on dog intact is 30 and the highest one is 40. Late fee for the impound is we we charge nothing. The highest one is 20. And inbound first defense is uh 35 bucks and the highest one is 50 bucks. you you all I'm saying and if you add that up right there you're we're somewhere in the middle of u in fees we're we're 15 bucks we're 35 bucks we're 20 bucks uh or sorry we're 10 bucks 30 bucks and 35 bucks on the first 10 all I'm saying let's raise it to 15 be more closer to the average dog intact raise it five bucks raise the late fee because we don't have a late fee raise it 20 bucks And we didn't looks like we had a 50 $35 inbound fee. Raise it to 50 bucks like everybody else. Then you can get that that'll bring me in approximately 9,600 bucks. Okay. So now you're about 25 $25,000 roughly. This one is specialy licenses. This is food truck. Special events. Special event small. especially if it's large alcohol premises and fire recheck and on the food trucks you are looking at 35 $36 $ 35.95 for Tree Mountain the highest one is 126 special events uh Totten charges nothing uh on this is on the small ones the highest one there is 75 bucks a special event large we charge nothing highest one there is 220 25 bucks. Alcohol off premises, we charge 28,460.

The highest one there is uh about 208460. Fire check, we do not charge nothing. Highest one there is 100 bucks. All I'm saying is raising that from 36 bucks, 35.95 to 75 bucks. Putting the special events, raising it to 50 like everybody else is raising the special event large to 150. raising alcohol uh off premises to 3:30 to so that we have to check it by the police department. They we paying them for their time. The fire the fire department recheck. We we have not charged anything. We charge 75 bucks like everybody else does. If you do do all that and uh that brings us in approximately let's see where was it? $4,336. I went through every fee that Tumont has and every fee that everybody else has. That's all I did. I went through fees because I Nobody looks at them and they're a little they're small and easy.

Total of those fees 1.5. No, not yet. Not close.

Uh this one is general business licenses. I know that the treat I know the city is already working on that. I get that. But this is what I found. The base block for Tmont is $36. The highest one is $154. Uh we do not charge a FTE, which is a full-time employment fee. The other cities charge up to six bucks. We charge nothing. We charge nothing on a apartment and storage. They the highest one is charged five bucks. The special hazmat fee you charge nothing. The highest one there is 300 bucks. Um all I'm saying on that one is you raise the base block to 115 from 36 which you put you right there in the middle. Highest is 154. We're 115. You're making a little bit more there. charge a employee fee of let's see $6. We're right in line with everybody else. Charge an apartment apartment and apartment and storage fee everybody. The highest is five bucks. Like I said, most of them are right around $2. Charge them two bucks. The special hazmat fee, most of them are right around 150. Charge them 150. We do not charge nothing on that one. you get um about $225,000 annually with that fee would only be if they had correct

so it would be hard to decide how many wouldn't be that many well I see let me see what you could do the location by there might be out of 20 there might be one and if you have to go back and so this also looks at if you have to go back and recheck too. So, and right now we charge nothing. So, that would give, you know, the fire department paying for the better. And that's Yeah, I see. I'm just saying you just can't say we added the 50 bucks and everybody's going to pay. No, no, no. Very few, right?

I I just took what the fees Tant City had and I matched them. So, so what I'm saying that that could be because true true and so like uh like a main like I had a business here in town I paid like 36 bucks so under the old system a boutique on Main Street is going to pay 36 bucks a local restaurant's going to pay 36 bucks a manufacturing plant it's going to pay 36 bucks under the new under what I proposed there you're looking at 127 bucks on Main Street a restaurant 187 bucks and a manufacturing plant somewhere around 1015. Yeah. The manufacturing might have the other. That's all I'm saying is just

I see. Okay. Does that make sense, Blair? But it makes sense to me that the math can't say that every fee we're going to have 50 bucks for. No, no, no, no, no. That's not what I'm That's not what I meant. That's fine. And and if it came across that way, I apologize. I I'm just clarifying.

Okay. If they're coming across that way, I apologize. Um, let's do this one. This one is u this is the court. We subsidize our court 92.6%. The city does. Okay. That means every dollar that goes through the court will pay 90 we'll pay 90 almost 93 cents on um out of the nine cities three of them have they make money on the course and anywhere pleas makes 69 69.8% makes 39.7% North A makes 32.5%. Perry they're low subsidy they lose about 13.6 six. Smithfield loses about 15.3 Garland losing about 50 on theirs and we lose 93%. So, you know, there's there's a whole lot of room to wiggle on the courts. Um, and in doing this, and you will have to correct me, Brandon, if I if I'm wrong on this, um, but from what I understand, there is state law and city law, and you can write tickets under state law, which then 45 45 to stays in the city and 55 most of the state. Is that correct?

Depends on a rule of thumb. Is that probably pretty close? And but a lot of cities from what I gathered, they don't write the co write tickets under state law. They write them under city code and then that stays in the city 100%. And I guess that's choice up to the officer. Does that get it correct? Well, it it also matters on the agency. Like if we have higher patrol that writes a a citation inside the city limit, then the state gets a higher could they write it under the city code then? I don't think so. Highway Patrol can't they have to write in their state. Troopers would have to write in their state. But you guys, the city the local guys can the local officers could. If

they had our city code, they could. In general, we can as police. Um, but one thing that needs to be mentioned is it's against the law to have a ticket quota. Right. I get that. And we trust our officers to make those decisions. Agree. What they're dealing with, but we we could in theory write them for the city. Um I'm not sure how that affects the court that some well if if you're getting 100% versus 45% you're you're getting money right there. Sure. And that could just in of itself if we can if we can do that that would decrease the subsidy which would decrease the amount that's coming from the general fund to subsidize course.

Sure. So the question I have, you talk about the subsidy. How exactly was the subsidy calculated based on what the court spent? Okay. So our budget this year for the court is $120,000. I have court expenditures of 1 1.7 million loss at 1.28 for for 25. Oh, sorry for treatment 185. Sorry. And we and we spent 171 for 25. You're looking at 2025. This is this is all data from 2020 to 2025 because we did have a full year on 2286

because the the budget for this year is only 120,000 for the core and it's been about I'd have to go into the book which I can do. No, that's okay. Let's let's move on because we got were how much? I have re I have expenditures of 185 revenues of 171 which is subsidy of 94.6 92.6 um revenues are that's a net loss of 171. Yeah that's because we that's the revenues. So you're saying revenues were only $14,000. We know our revenues consistently been around 90,000.

Good enough. Then that that this is that that's we that's what we're talking that's what we're discussing. We we talked about this last budget season. We looked at it and we were subsidizing for about $10,000. We've been subsidizing anywhere between$10 and $50,000 is about where the subsidy is ranged. And we had that discussion of moving I think whether to hire a judge and and everything like that. if you remember the discussion from last year's budget. So for what I had found, so you correct me now if I'm wrong, there's a security fee, a tech fee, a warrant fee, a plan fee for the the courts. Is that correct?

Security fee, a tech fee, a technological fee for like computers and stuff, a warranty fee, and a pay plan fee. Is this like expenses that you're talking about? No, there's fees. The the court charge you charge five bucks on the warranty fees. Everybody else charges more. We'd have to look at that's a pleasant pleasant view charges 25 bucks and let's see the other cities charge anywhere from basically about 25 bucks it looks like and we charge nothing on it currently is what I found

that would that's something else that can be considered. I I think that's a that's a point for the um for the court clerk and the city manager. So, what I'm proposing, let's let's let's not go 25. Let's go 20 then. Okay. On the tech fee, everybody's basically 15 bucks. I said, let's go 15 bucks. Warranty fee, which right now, from what I gather, is five bucks. Everybody else is 25 bucks. Let's match it to 25 bucks. Pay plan fee, we charge you nothing, and everybody else is either 15 or 25 bucks. So, I said, let's put it at 20 bucks. So the average the high is $73, the low is us at $50 and I'm just saying let's raise it to 70 bucks.

That's something that the court would have to address as far as the individual fees and the fee structure fees. So yeah, I don't know. I just know what what we have typically as revenue for the court and what we typically have for the expenses. This year we're scheduled to subsidize them by about $30,000 is what the current budget has.

Now, I know this is a touchy subject, but I'm going to bring it up anyway. Uh, okay. Because you both address it and it's, you know, about the tickets. Um, everybody else, the what I got, this again, this is what I found. I apologize if it's not correct. That's why I'm looking at you. I'm asking a question. National average is between 45 to 65 per thousand residents. Uh Utah state average is 45 to 52. Wela County average is 45 to 50. Tree uh Tmont we're right around 18 per thousand residents.

We drive better in Igro on some certain days. Part of that part of that problem is that our guys don't have the proactive time. That's that's a good answer. I respect that answer. We've got we've got guys that would love to ride tickets all day long. Think of three of them that would do stick on a motor, man. They would just slay it. Well, and you and you and you mentioned the other day that you wait out that little machine on the uh north and was it and you know which

and and after you said that I thought well why can't you again I don't know that's why I'm asking a question you know I'm not trying to fend and I'm not trying I'm just me for knowledge will you put it up there then you switch it over to the other one why can't you had an officer sit up there. Again, I don't know the staffing. Okay, that's a good answer, too. But, you know, then but see what I'm saying the residents are saying that there's speeding problems in that location and that location, take the machine and put in the other location and have the officer sit there and write tickets for a day or two comes in both. And I get that and I understand that.

We just do not have the proactive time to to go and do that. That's that's a good answer and I respect that answer. That's why we need more officers. So, but anyway, that's that's what I have on that one. Um, this one, we're getting down to the nitty-gritty on some of these now. Okay, guys. Uh, so, um, these might be a little touchy on them, but still I'm going to address them. Uh, this one is um our monthly utility bills. So, sewer gas, sewer water from the city. Okay. Um, our monthly bill at least mine is $7.65. Um, but I pay $18.90 for sewer or water, 22.25 for sewer, 1350 for garbage and storm for storm drain $6 and secondary for $10. Um the on the water again through all these other cities it ranges from low 15 bucks to a high of 2767 and we were $18.90 on the sewer. It ranges from a low of $1840 to a high of $50.13. We are 22.225. On garbage, it ranges from a low of $109 to $15.50. We are 1350. On storm drains, it ranges anywhere from five bucks to $9.25 and we're six bucks. Then I I understand there is a transportation a top transportation utility fund. Is that correct?

There's not. There's not. No, but it's being proposed. Correct. It's been discussed. It's been discussed. Anyways, I put that in there. That is $910. Correct. For a home,

correct? Okay. So, and then the secondary water ranges anywhere from $885 to a high of $4421. We charge 10 bucks. So I I I says, "Let's go back again in the middle, but a little bit higher than where we are, which would be 23 bucks on water, 35 bucks on sewer, 1450 on garbage, $6 on storm drains. Keeping the tough in there, that transportation thing for roads, that's $910. Secondary water, raise it to $15, which raises your total bill from $70 to $70.65. 65 to $102.60. That's going to affect everybody in this whole room. Okay. That's that's why this one's a little bit tougher, but this one will raise approximately $1.4 million. See, and that's kind of where I I think we just have a discussion to be had, right, around what what I hear you proposing is is essentially more taxes to people via

fees. Yeah. So you but it is it is increased the burden on the the same citizens. Absolutely. Distributed accordingly. Same checking account. So, it's new revenue, but it's technically off the same backs of the same citizens. We're just doing it instead of through property tax. We're doing it through fees, increased fees, right? But the revenue comes from the same people. I got to jump on this.

Which I'm which I I'm not against this, you know, if if if that's the structural positioning we want to take, but it is I just want to say it like it is. It is the same people putting the money back into the checkbook to to to increase the revenue. Absolutely. But we do need to clarify and I I want to make sure this is on public record and very clear. Every single fee that he discussed there is not in the general fund.

So that 1.4 million does nothing to help the general fund. This is all based off of our enterprise funds and now the newly created road funds that road fund that we're working on this year. well that we did this year did fiscal year 26 and um I have been on record in the past indicating that all those fees should be evaluated and considered for adjustments. So I'm 100% on board for the the concept of these fee adjustments. I think I think there's validity there. But I do want to make very very very clear this does not satisfy any of the general fund funding issues. So it can't be they're separate fun.

You correct me if I'm wrong. Now if you raise the fees on the So we're not So now we're not subsidizing the enterprise funds. Sewer, water, and roads. We're not subsidizing them now. No. Well, I know. But we're some in some way we are. No, we aren't. No, there's there's no money coming from the general fund to those funds. So that's why the roads are so crowded. Now, is that what you're saying? I'm not going to answer that. What I am saying that's why the sewer spathing water fund is its own fund. Its revenues go towards its expenses and we keep track of it completely. That's what we're saying though. It's like own business. Both are needed. That's why that's the unfortunate reality

and that's why I did it this way because these are restricted funds for for the things like I can't remember who said it. One of one of you guys said it on Tuesday that the sewer is failing as we speak. Said that you said okay. So the these are funds to to shore that up.

Shore up the roads, shore up those sewers, shore up the water systems because he's saying it's failing. So we need to do something. It's going to come out of our pockets like you said was taxes or fees. It will come out. I would just assume I would just assume pay 32 bucks a month and know that it's going to a restricted fund that's going to pay for my sewer, my water, and my roads.

So, just be clear, property taxes do not subsidize in Fremont City anything related to water, sewer, sewer treatment plant, storm drain, garbage collection, or right now even the roads. It only subsidizes general fund. Okay. It pays for the general fund and the I want the there is a transfer from the general fund to fire EMS, right? So that comes from general fund just to be very very clear. Time to add clarity. I think she wants to

Yes. I have quite a few little notes on here. So I don't know. So he brought up the water, you know, raising our fees on that. I'm I'm okay with a lot of those things, but I have a little concern about the uh secondary water. I don't use it, but I've been paying for it. But then when you want to raise it up to $15, I'm going to scream because I I think I've been wanting to make a proposal to where people that have pumps are exempt from having to pay that $10 fee. When when you say pump, what are you talking about? So I know what you're talking about.

No, it's not using a well. Okay, that's a grandfathered well. And I I'm sure there's other people that have that, too. And so, you know, I when I built my house, I had to pay to have that secondary put in. And I will probably never ever use it. And so I'm paying that fee, you know, but I'd much rather not pay that fee. Absolutely. You know, and then you want to raise it another five bucks. And so I'd rather not. Um, you know, I'd rather pay for dog licenses that you like to raise, you know. Well, I'm trying to hit everybody all across the city just a little bit

and not any one person alone. And and I've not heard this and this is something we used to have a business and um at first we used to pay $40 a year for this business license and then all of a sudden they quit charging us for the business license probably the last three or four years. So I suggest that everybody would pay for business license and I don't know why they quit charging. I I brought that up. Yeah. So, you know, go back and charge everybody business licenses and then that way you you would be making revenue from that. That's a hot topic course right now. We're working on that right now.

Yeah. Okay. And then the other thing I wanted to know is that okay, we did not get any snow. So, so your snow plow money, what where is that going now? Is that going to help pay for some sewer piping or road fixtures? Yeah. That's the cemetery. That's the advantage part of not having that is that there's money because there's always somewhere to use it. Other than the big party that we're going to have other than that, correct me if I'm wrong, but snowpl in the road fund, right? Correct. So that that would stay in the road.

You can't cross that because it's committed for that next year. We may have the snowed next year. I hope so because I got a new plow on my truck and I thought I know. But anyway, I I think that should be in consideration for us people that have wells that we don't have to pay 15 minutes. These are the two big ones. Um let's start with this one here first. This is the building fees. Um, constructions. Yeah. Whatever you want to call it. Nope. This is building building permits. Permits.

Permits. Yeah. Building permits. So, this is on a based on a $400,000 home because you drive around town. Pretty much 390 is the minimum and everything else is above 390. So, I put 400 just to make it easy. Um the per permits right now the building permit itself from what I gather is 1,300 bucks in Tmont the highest in the out of the nine cities is 2850 the lowest is Truman by substantially even Garland 1750 uh plan review we charge 600 bucks the highest is 1,100 the lowest is 600 bucks mechanical we charge60 60. The highest is uh 135. The lowest is 60. Electrical we charge 60. The highest is 120. The lowest is 70 bucks. I mean,

I have a follow-up question on this one because in the state of Utah, this is based off of you can't actually charge a fee, a permit fee that exceeds the cost of it is to to do plan review inspection in that, right? That's the limitation, I believe. So, we have to work with then. So, do are are we when's the last time we did analyze what our costs were comparative to the fee that we're charging? We have to show it every year. Every year. Now the I do have that just so you know it's right

some of the some of the challenge and this this is a controversial area. So it's not nec it's not the fee that comes into question it's the costs. So what happens is you charge a fee but the costs aren't necessarily incurred immediately that are direct costs. It could be a couple months. Part of predictive on how many building permits you ask for to

well and when do they actually get through the final permit? Some homes unfortunately start and then they don't finish for a year and a half because of whatever happens. And so your final permit can be 18 months later. Now that's atypical. But the other thing that happens that that is a struggle with this boat and this is where everybody has the confusion is the indirect costs. So direct costs are I I have a building inspector, they go out, they inspect it. That's a direct cost. I can keep track of those costs. But what it doesn't count is time that city council spends analyzing zoning and planning to know where those buildings are going to happen. It doesn't count the city manager's time as they're meeting with as she's meeting with developers and understanding their plans. You have certain people like the the fire marshall fire department that gets involved. You have roads our public works people that get involved. And so it's what we call indirect costs. They're still costs. They're real. It's just they're indirect and how to allocate those in to see what level that fee could be. And that's the part that as a city we could strengthen and we're making ways to improve that. But we come into what's called cost allocations in the in the accounting world. And cost allocations always have a degree of subjectivity to them. there there's because short of having actually keeping track of every single minute of what they're doing every single day which becomes very very very expensive your analysis of how to put the the costs into something becomes very much more generic the more accurate the data going in the more accurate the information coming out

garbage type so we it's this concept of how much time do we want to spend actually collecting the data for the cost allocations So Bo, you're absolutely correct. And how we would allocate those fees is is really the the question. And who governs that? Who governs that that the rate that we can charge

it? The so the law is very very clear that it says the fee cannot be in excess of the revenues or sorry the fee cannot be in excess of the expenses. But the definition of those expenses allows for indirect costs. And so the city would have to really focus on the indirect cost tracking and then we can keep track of that and in any one year your fee can exceed those expenses but you have to show okay then we're going to have then we're going to have those expenses incurred in the next year and you have this mechanism of it's almost first in first out accounting type of thing where your first in fee goes to the first costs that are incurred. it it's it and we've been doing that annually. We do it it get it actually gets audited by the independent auditors um as it cycle as they cycle through the state compliance and we have been compliant. I will say there's also been some years where we have subsidized the fees um and and there's other times where our fees have been in excess um just because based off of when costs are actually incurred and they can swing. Um it we we had a period where we issued I I can't remember it's like 30 permits in June. So all the revenue came in in June but we weren't going to incur those expenses for another 12 months. And so it's that type of stuff that we that we're monitoring on the back side if that helps. Sorry I went way a long time. Good.

Okay. Thank you. Um did I did I do plumbing? Okay. plumbing. Um, Tmont we charge 60. The highest is 135. Uh, then of course for the every every home there's a state fee and on 400,000 it is going to be roughly 35 bucks. Right now we charge 20 bucks but you know that that's not anything that we have active. Yeah. So,

so basically, oh, sorry. So, basically, uh, old the old fees for a building permit is about $2,100 uh, for Tmont City. And if you look at all eight or nine cities, that is the very lowest. And by lowest, but by at least next is Garland at almost $2,800. Oh, sorry. That was probably me playing. Um, the next one's gone on at 2,800 bucks, but the highest is 4,340. $4,342. I'm just saying let's raise it up there right in the in the average. It's a little bit above the middle, but just a smidgen. And it's at 38.50. That would that right there if you do that.

So the 175,000 that you reported was was available. How many homes is that based on? based on 100 homes which we've built for about the last four year 45 years. That be an additional 6,500 a month per household then um I'm just trying to get that leg that would be well if you're going from 2100 to 3850. So that be about an additional 175,000 in increased revenue divided by 130 homes is what previous fees about $1,200 about$,750 difference. So is that is that is that feasible like is there enough indirect cost there that we could

okay figure out how to get to that? All right. I got this uh this is a labor cost for those fees. Uh, typically you permanent fees takes about two and a half hours, a $45 rate. I'm not challenging you. I'ming the the opportunity. That's why I'm looking at him when I said that to make sure that that I'm in the ballpark.

Uh, plan review fees about 7 hours, 65 bucks an hour. Uh, mechanical inspection about one higher. Okay. So, then I'm low. Uh, mechanical inspection about an hour and a quarter. 60 bucks an hour. electrical same hour and a quarter 60 bucks an hour. This plumbing same hour and a quarter for 60. So that's kind of how I did it. If I'm on the low side and on the high side, we can just adjust those. But basically, you're looking at $175,000 on $100. Okay.

And then on the I save the best one for last. This is but we get how many quart 11 45. Yeah, we got seven minutes.

Oh. Oh. So 7 minutes. Okay. I'm going to go really fast. Does everybody know what impact fees are? Any questions? Okay. Treemont on water we charge $1,850 uh which is the second lowest. Garland charges 1,500. The highest is 5120. Sewer we charge 1650. We are the second lowest right above Garland. The highest right there is 4150. Parks we charge 1637 uh which is second lowest just above Garland at 1,200 and the highest there is uh 3,400. Rose we charge 1250. The highest is 24 2450. We are the second lowest right above Garland storm. Nobody charges for anything for storm. Nobody charges anything for secondary water. It's usually included in their wa in that other part using water. Public safety we charge 1,100. Is that right? Because the other day I asked that.

Yeah. It's right around and but we don't charge anything for per correct. Correct. It's all fire.

This is all fire. Okay. So Garland charges $850. The highest there is 2150. Okay. There is some electric fees but send other cities because they have electric uh utilities that are owned by the city. But if you look at the highest on the as far as the total cities we are at 7487 which is the second lowest right above Garland the highest is 19,138. I propose basically growth pays for growth. So you're not charging my mother who is almost 90 this year to pay for sewer and water and parks and roads. I'm saying let's have these new guys pay for it those things like out here west and I get that that that was a before this pre city council but river valley I believe we was going to pay 65% of the roads out there in river valley subdivision which is a subdivision I live in okay I don't think that's fair because I have two brothers that work for uh developers and they would love that deal they pay 100% of all infrastruure infrastructure cost to the for it. So they they figure out any lot they build, they're going to add 50 to $60,000 in infrastructure cost, sewer, roads, water, uh sidewalks, curbs, and gutter. Um but I propose raising that to 15862, which again is just above the middle.

What is that we charge total? We charge 74.87, which is the second lowest. just above Garland. I built a house five years ago and I know I just $500 and there's some other there's probably other fe. So you probably have that building fee entire with that. This is just the impact fees. That's why I did them two separately. So, so the police impact fee can be

we need so impact fees are have a lot of laws to them and they have they are subject to legislative review every single year. So there is not a year that goes by where they're not tweaking something with impact fees. Um, I know I talked to Britain's last night sit there and he was saying that he takes two of the parts and has them reviewed every year. So, he's always doing them to keep them current and it's because you have to have the analysis that

we we haven't we have some that are a little bit older. So, but this is this is discussed the the biggest issue that comes up with impact fees that that I have seen in my past. The the project has to be identified of what you're going to spend collect this money for. And the project has to be built within six years. Correct. And some of the challenge comes from these builders sometimes don't even build out their entire subdivision in six years.

Correct. So you, this is why they constantly review and update. But you have a project that typically benefits current residents as well as existing residents. Roads is a really really easy one to to do this show this on. When you go to widen a road, there's existing use on the road. The the subdivision will impact that. But if you go from a two-lane road to a four-lane road, you don't get to capture the entire cost of building a four-lane road in the impact from impact fees. You have to reduce that for what capacity already exists on there. And so go you may only get like 30% participation from the impact fee. But if the road project is a $10 million project, only 30% of it can be paid from the impact fees collected over a six-year period or $3 million you hope is collected. The city is required to spend and build that road within the six years. And so the city council would be committed to spend $7 million just on that one project. If you put four projects in there, the city is committing for that existing portion already for all four of those projects.

So, we have to be careful as we adopt impact fees that we don't commit to build something that would actually cost the city more and put the city in financial jeopardy. So, impact fees need to be analyzed. They need to be considered but we always have to consider what the existing payers what the existing capacity is versus what the new capacity is. So is that why the city's on hook for a river valley for 65%. Was what you just saying? I don't think river valley was in the impact. Well you guys passed it. Yeah, you're talking about river road storm drain stuff. Storm drain.

It was in that river valley you guys passed and then you had to pull back and part of that thing was we was picked the city. Yeah, I'm not sure what it was. Okay. I just remember that they said it's 65% from the roads out there. Since I'm just a fire, I just want to know. So, we can take the $1,100 we get on everything. Do we have to buy brick and mortar or can we put that in our buy an ambulance have a 10y year life 115 and soar verify it. Yeah, it's a lot lower.

It has a 10 year life though. Yes sir. I just want to make a statement. When I moved to to Tree 55 years ago, there wasn't anything that I needed that I couldn't buy here in town and that took care of everything. Now, I can't hardly buy anything in town. All the money goes out. I think that's our biggest problem is that we don't have the infrastructure to take care of the business part of it to bring the business in town where money stays in town. Yes, I agree and that's top on his list right now.

Yeah, I have to create an environment that people want to come to, right? Can I address that too? I am doing a reports on that because that I was a I was I'm still a business owner here in town. Have a business here in town and that is concerns me greatly. But also, let me back up. One thing I forgot on the business licenses, the state passed a law this I think it's 2026. Uh so any business license as a homebased we used to collect fees on that. We can no longer do that. I don't know.

Okay. Um also in the these impact fees um so that's what I that's the money I got. Uh let's see. Again, this is based on 100 homes because I just that's what we've been building is for the last little while. So if you take the um the old rate of 7487 and compare it to the new rate of 15862, that's an increase of of 8375 times it by 100 homes, you get 837,500 bucks. And just to be on the record and very clear once again, all of those fees are not in the general fund. They all go into other funds. And so once again, when it comes to the general fund concerns, they don't help our general fund areas, they they do help other funds,

but it all helps. Yep. Thank you. Now, any questions? I'm sorry for if I've offended anybody. I didn't want to put any any targets on anybody's backs and I don't want to be a target of anything. I just wanted to present data and I just did it the best way that my brain

thought of and I want to encourage the public to do this to come to us with ideas. Send it to us. I I want this data so we can look at it and now we can start using these line items, start going through and I encourage any other data to come in that people have because we'll grow and I love it and this is what we're asking for. Okay. The only thing um I want us to be cautious and careful about how we present that outside of give us the chance to look at it and and go through it. And it's not that we need to go through dependent because that's not what we need to do. We need to see how how can we apply this or how can we not and then come back and say this is what we got from your data. Thank you. Or we can't do this. So, this is what I would like to do. You guys let me know. I would like to put it online again. I would like to get make sure you guys all have copies again like I did last time and put it online. If there's things that I didn't address like on you, please clarify it like this gentleman, brother Roberts.

That's fine. I answered it. Brother, Mr. Robert, Mr. Roberts clarify some things. Please, when I put it out, clarify that. I may or may not respond to it, Brandon, and I apologize. I'm just not a big social media media guy and I know you are. Okay. But but just clarify it. It from your point of view. You do that under your name or I do I did it under my name. I mean, I'm always concerned with the anonymous. No, I do. I I I own this. I I 100% own this. That's that's good because somebody can't go anonymous. No, no, I I don't I don't agree with that, Blair. And so I appreciate that. And I think I think that's what I'm going to do. Guys are okay with that.

Yeah. If I put data out like personally like that, I'd say here's the data I've got. Here's what I've gotten from the city, put it together, and then present it as the facts. That way that you know, and so we would be happy to get you the information we have and what we're thinking on. I'll just put that out there if you're okay with it. Well, and then maybe a clarification to you because one of the things that came out of this conversation that I think it's important that people understand is that technically most of what we've talked about today is increasing fees.

Yeah, absolutely. But we still have the truth of the property tax conversation with the general fund to be having that every everything that we just went over with all these fees doesn't impact our general fund which is where property tax is at. So I still hold true to what we talked about the other day as uncomfortable as it is of being able to address that. And there's two ways to impact it. sales tax, revenue, property tax, and property tax. And I don't want to touch property tax unless we have to. But the reality is our costs are rising.

So until sales tax goes up, we should be good stewards. Let's let's address sales tax. Amen. And I'm doing my best. So you have ideas, let's go, baby. And we'll look for some grants, too. Grants. Yes. I I I'm I'm working on some more reports on to deal with that. So, when I get those, I will address the city council with those. I I'm going to come to you guys first like I've done in the past. Yeah. Okay. And I'm going to do pretty much exactly what I did this week.

What what where where I I guess what I'm trying to say is if I'm just summing up what I've heard today is we need to go increase revenue by increasing fees. But the way it's been posted online is very much they're going to raise property tax on you. Come help me fight to get this down. And what I've heard today is let's raise fees to get new revenue. We still need to talk about property tax. That's what I've heard as a as a as as actual tactical recommendations. But I think the way the public's seeing it is there's 2.6 on the table that city council is not taking advantage of that. That's that in my perception. That's the phone call right now.

So, so, so I'm just saying like generally speaking, just just know that's the message you're sending because the send a better message. Let's do it. Let's do it. I mean, because at the end of the day, I don't want your guys jobs I mean, doing this any more stressful than it can be. I don't want Brent over here fuming for a day coming in. Okay, two days about something that we can address and I would rather sit down with Let's do that prior to Okay, so that's why I asked you what you guys this is what I want to do. What do you want me to do?

First off, you don't need our permission. I know, but you can post whatever you feel like you want to post, but if it's inaccurate, you're gonna get you're gonna get push back from me. I I expect that. I would here's what I would here's what I would take away from this. And we're good. Okay. We're good.

Um my recommendation would be when you get data off a single source, vet that data out. meet with department heads, go to Dustin, Jeff, Carl, and say, "Hey, this is what I'm seeing. Is it is it factual?" Put that together, and then come sit down and say, "Look, here are the steps that I went through. I Yeah, I pulled the data from here. I did this extra extra thing, and I vetted it out, and here's what it come to other than this social media blast, this meeting, which which has taken up an hour and a half of of time even from our department heads." uh you know to come in and defend what was what was put out and we can I think we can save a lot of time and heartache and and anger and things like that if we'll do some due diligence on the front end of saying this these are all the steps that I went through uh I sat down with Lindsay we went through and and here's what I found that's currently being done and after all that I think we can I think we can save money here I think we can we can assess this we can do these types of things. That would be that would be my expectation moving forward. We'll put the we'll put the past in the past done. It's gone. Um that would be that would be my recommendation to you to make this process smoother for all of us.

I think this has been food for thought. I appreciate what you have brought to the table. Absolutely. and the insight in ways that we need to look and see if we can make adjustments or change or which direction we need to go in because we don't have an open check checkbook and we need to realize that and so I appreciate what you brought to this table. Thank you very much. Welcome. Well, and I on city council on Tuesday I hear 15% we need across C across the board. Correct. Is that is that a good We want to have 15% savings. Right. Right. But but we need to cut it so we have that savings.

Right. Right. Well, the way I looked at that is I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, the police and fire take up roughly 70ish%. After we refigured it, it's it's 38. Put both of them together about about 50% both of them together. on the general fund. Okay. But that's not what you guys said on Tuesday. As as has happened here, we've gone back and looked at the data and we've validated some of it and it's changed a little bit and it

So you're saying that 50% of the general fund. I'm just making sure that's clear for me. Uh 50% of the general fund is fire and police. Correct. Correct. Okay. Public safety, better way to say that, right? Okay. Well, well then that because the way I was looking at it first time, I'm thinking, "Holy crap, they're you're gonna slam police department of fire because if they were 70% and you got to take 15%."

That's the bulk of that was going to come from you guys on what was what was presented were the things that we asked the department heads for. We said, "Hey, best case scenario, we have enough to fund everything. Tell us what you need." I was just concerned that's that was that was what was presented. That was council saying back uh that would be awesome. We got to be stewards. We got to have 15% minimum to go. Each department is working with Lindsay to go through and and trim down to where we can have that money go into savings for capital still operate the the department and that's where that so that's what

so correct me for so help me understand this police is how much of the budget then it's 50 for fire and police probably 38 39% so 12% for for the fire is that what I'm you got to take in consideration that not Not only do they take care of our community, but when out ofers come in and we have to take care of them, too. I get I get that because we're right by two freeways. I think he's learning. I don't You're inquiring, right? Oh, I'm I'm just I'm just understand trying to understand for me because things have changed. No, I'm not challenging. Things changed from Tuesday. So, I'm just want to for me, I want to understand that

and they'll change again. But so so 50% for both public safety and 3812 384. Yeah. Right now 3814. So then they're going back to the books and they're working on it. So then you're still going to come up with 15% 50.

That's what we're at. Well, it was so what was proposed about 45.7 and uh working with us can turn that down to to where okay the kind of that base like we can't get below this without sacrificing services we're probably in that 38 39%. Okay. And I know F is doing the doing the same thing on theirs. So So you're going to probably end up right around that 51 52% together. Okay. I'm just

This is me as a concerned citizen just because I didn't know I was that wanted to know because like you guys change things. That's okay. Well, it's changed the whole time. Yeah. Where are you? I think every week until you don't actually do the budget. I think it actually changed in the meeting when we changed it was during that workshop during the financial I was just that was just because we said we was going to talk about things and I thought I have questions. Does anyone else in the audience have a commercial? Okay.

So I'd like to say this before we end is you brought together some great ideas on increase revenues. We are also looking at several ways of decreasing expenses. So, it's going to do this. It's gonna hopefully Yeah. Well, if we can decrease them, then it's going to give us more of the bottom line. So, we are actively looking at a lot of ideas. I have 22 of them on my desk right now. Some fun ideas. Some are only $1,000, but it's still You see my $1,000, but $1,000 is a,000 bucks.

Yeah. So, thank you. Does council have anything else they would like to say? Hey, I would entertain a motion to second. All in favor say yes. Yes. Thank you. We are journ. Thank you. Where do I go and get you guys copies? I need I need to copy this. I know. That's why I go over here. I can take them by interest.