Planning Board - Regular Meeting

Evening everybody. I will call to order the August 13, 2025 planning board meeting. Please rise for the pledge of allegiance. Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. All right. So, we look like we are missing Ann. I'll appoint Mr. D to vote for Ann. Mr. is here. Uh, and that puts us at a quorum. Mr. Rug voting members, sir. Fantastic. Do we have any minutes to review?

Some came out late afternoon. I haven't even looked at not a chance. We'll hold off on those until next month. That's fine. uh regional impact determinations. Kelly, none this evening, Mr. Chair. All righty. In discussion with town staff, I have one uh item here, the code of ethics from uh town manager Mhalland. Mr. Mhalland, welcome. It's nice to see you at the uh the planning board.

Thank you, sir. Uh so, as you know, there's a pro, you may know, or may not know. Uh we are uh undergoing a process to update uh the code of ethics for the town, and that is going to be an elongated process. We're sending it out to every board and committee to provide feedback to staff. There's also public engagement sessions that will occur for the general uh public to provide feedback before it actually goes to the council again and then they make whatever final revisions they choose to make. And at that time there'll be a public hearing. So it's a very elongated process, but uh there's no real hurry to go and do this. Let's do it right. So we're asking for feedback for every board committee if they wish to provide it. Um if they don't, that's fine, too, but we're giving them the opportunity to do that. Obviously you have you're have some quasi judicial functions that you perform here. So that's it's an issue obviously on planning boards certainly ZBAS and other boards uh the advisory boards it's less of an issue but certainly on these boards it's uh ethics is rather important so I wanted to get that feedback from you to the extent that you have any. If you don't have any tonight that's fine as long as we get it by the end of the process which is like the end of September um before we get it back to the council that would be helpful. But I'm here if you have any questions about any of the uh items that are in here on the draft um that you'd like to discuss.

All right. Anything from the board, Mr. Rug? Got a quick general question. Uh how do you see it differing from what we have right now? Do you see it definite improvement tightening things up?

Yeah, I don't you know, I don't think what you had is bad, but this is this this covers sections that weren't there before. It talks about the electionary issues, especially when it comes to public employees and how they should be acting. Um, it it covers issues of uh so-called gifts. If you have a death in a family and somebody sends flowers to you, technically you can't you can't receive those because that would be considered a gift. So, it has a dollar amount, something less than $50 because that's most people would do that sort of thing. And most people are not going to do that to convince Art Rug to vote for their proposal, you know. So, um, and there's some language here that covers that. As long as that gift is not intended to, uh, influence your decision-making process that allows for an appropriateness to do that.

Very good. Wonderful. Anything else from the board? Okay. I would ask that if the board could review this and uh, if we could have if you could have any questions over to Kelly for Mr. Mhalland. um by the September 10th meeting. So that's our second meeting uh of next month if we could have all that over to her so that way she has time to review it and give it to the TM uh before his um end of the month deadline that he's asking on. Is that too long? Is that is that No, that's there's plenty even after that there'll be public hearings after that. So this is going to be an elongated process. Okay, everybody comfortable with that?

Y wonderful. Fantastic. Thank you, Mr. Moholland. Uh, anything else? Nothing this evening. Kelly, all set, Mr. Chair.

Anything? Wonderful. All right, moving on. We are going to uh old business. We have a public hearing on an application for formal review of a site plan to construct two commercial buildings totaling 3200 square ft and 7,500 ft² along with associated site improvements located at 59 Rockingham Road, map 13, lot 60-3, zone C2, Rockingham Road Holdings LLC is the owner. Freestone Holdings LLC is the applicant continued from May 7th, June 11th, and lastly July 9th, 2025. Good evening, gentlemen. How we doing?

Good evening, Mr. Chairman. Me, members, if I can just kind of recap. Absolutely. As you indicated, uh Mr. Chairman, uh this was uh this was uh accepted as complete back on May 7th. It was continued to June 11th and then on June 9th is when uh the applicant and his engineer returned back to the board mainly to to act on those couple of waiverss. What had occurred though is that the plans had been submitted prior to that meeting. We didn't have an opportunity to review that those plans. We've since had an opportunity to review those. Staff is recommending conditional approval this evening. Uh I think it it just needs a uh conditional use permit. That's that needs to be acted upon by the board. So I think that'll summarize it. Earl,

I have a Well, the only thing is conditional use is for the uh I believe it's for wetlands that are over half an acre and none of these are. So I didn't think we were in that correct need of Okay. So that that's that's not not required then you're saying we learned through the through the reviews that it was less than. There you go. So this evening staff is comfortable with conditional approval of the plan this evening. Thank you. So just understand we do not have a cup that we need to act on based off of square footage. Correct. I know it states it on the agenda, but through the series of continuences, we learned that it's not applicable in this case.

Sure. Okay. Fantastic. Um before the board discusses here, we'll give you folks the floor for a little bit. Um give us a refresh refresh of where we are and and we'll go from there.

Uh sure. Uh I think uh couple meetings ago we had the discussion about the firetruck access. Um so we did go back to the drawing board found that we can adjust uh so we've changed the location of the loading docks in the big building and widen the pavement uh and and showed that um even with the tractor trailer at the loading dock the fire truck can go to the either side and turn around. um that triggered changes to the drainage and to some of the other reports which um forced us to extend for another five weeks to um give the the town and and Stantech the opportunity to review the plan. So at this point they've reviewed the updated plans. Um they got back to us with a list of issues. We've gone through all those issues and we believe that everything is at this point addressed. So you're ready for the conditional approval. All right. So, what we will do is I will um and ask town staff if they have anything else they want to input. We'll come to the board for comment. I'm going to open it up to a public hearing. We'll close it then.

I do have Mr. Chairman. Sure. Uh there were items. They're mostly like this note needs to be changed. They weren't significance. I've written my own response to each one whether you want it presented now or whatever. But that's uh we agree. The main conclusion is there was nothing that really changed the technical aspect of this. It was just some typos and making sure the storm water You have it all. It's in your materials. I I I would I appro there's nothing that that's earth shaking or um Sure. or contentious or anything at this point.

Sure. All right. I will uh start with staff. I have nothing more to add. Thank you, Kelly. All set, Mr. Chair. All right. I will bring it to the board, Jason. Um, yeah, I'd just like to again thank you for taking into consideration the the conversation we had. I know it extended everything and made it a little bit more complicated, but again, I want to thank you for taking that into consideration. Anything else from the board?

All right, I will uh open up public comment. Public comment. and I will close public comment and bring it back to the board. All right, board. Uh, we have some choices we need to make. I would be looking for a motion to conditionally approve this application. Mr. Chair.

Yes, sir. After the fourth appearance here, I will make a motion to grant conditional approval of a site plan and conditional use permit construct to construct two commercial buildings total 3,200 square ft and 7,500 square ft along with associated site improvements 59 Rockingham Road, tax map 13, lot 60-3. There's his own commercial too road Holdings LLC. Eden Soy

pronunciation as the owner and Freestone Holdings LLC app is the applicant. This was last revised February 5th, 2025 with the president conditions to be fulfilled within 120 days of approval and prior to planned signature and general and subsequent conditions of approval to be filled as noted in the engineering memo. I have a motion from Mr. Rug. Do I have a second? I'll second that, Mr. Chair. Second from Mr. Wilds. All in favor uh be a roll call vote starting with um Go ahead. Good luck. Yeah, you I'm so used to saying and it just threw everything off. I Johnny, Javanni Veroni, I Tony D. I

Lyn Wilds. I Jeff Pent. I Arthur Rug. I Jason Knights. I John Faber. I And uh the chair votes in the affirmative uh thing. For the record, he's not a voting member, is he? Oh, no. Yeah, but that's my name. No, I know. Trust me, I know. It just I'm so used to looking and seeing Ann. really messed me up. There's a rock in front of that. Yeah, Steve. Steve is the same way as well. Same with Steve. Yeah, exactly. But it's good to know what you think. So, playing for the record. Uh, gentlemen, your application has been granted. Thank you very much. I appreciate the uh the effort put in. I know that uh the board had some some pretty in-depth conversation about your plan, and I appreciate your due diligence.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Appreciate your time. All right, moving on. Uh, we have a public hearing on an application for a conditional use permit for 2,15 square ft of temporary wetland impacts and 9,74 ft of permanent wetland buffer impacts for equipment access and work pad placement associated with the proposed structure replacements located within the conservation overlay district for the 380 transmission line in the areas of High Range Road and Mayflower Drive. This is zoned AR1. Kurt Nelson is the applicant. Public service company of New Hampshire, also known as Eversource, is the owner. Uh before we get started, I will uh I will look for completeness on this. It does not look like there are any outstanding checklist items. I would accept a motion to accept the application as complete for staff's recommendation memorandum dated August 13, 2025.

So move, Mr. Chair. Motion from Mr. Rug. I'll second that, Mr. Chair. Second from Mr. Wilds. A roll call vote starting with Mr. Verani. Roll call vote. That's what we've been doing. Yeah. I was messed up with you not calling in. It's messed everything up tonight. Gavanni Veroni. I Tony D. I Lyn Wilds I Jeff Penta I Arthur Rug I Jason Knights I Sean Faber I and the chair votes in the affirmative. This has been accepted is complete. Uh before we give you the floor, does the board have anything that uh the staff have anything they'd like to add? Nothing. Good.

Just a note, Mr. Chair, that this was at Conscom last evening and they provided a favorable recommendation. Fantastic. All right, folks. The floor is yours.

Great. Thank you so much. Um so I'm Lindsay White. I work for GZA Geo Environmental and here with Kurt Nelson with Eversource. Um, we are here this evening for a conditional use permit for upcoming maintenance work along the existing 380 transmission line. Uh, this is very consistent with other pool replacement and maintenance projects that have been before you recently um from Eversource. So, we'll keep this pretty brief. Um, the work associated with this project will be done in accordance with the New Hampshire dees best management practices manual for utility maintenance in and adjacent to wetlands and water bodies. Uh the project includes a the replacement of two utility poles uh in the town of London area. Both are located off of Mayflower Drive as it's seen on the the plans on the screen. Um and this is replacement of existing wood poles with steel equivalent poles. The work is proposed to begin this fall uh 2025 and be completed uh midappril 2026. And the work does require temporary wetland impacts within the conservation overlay district uh for access uh to the poles and for constructing a safe workpad area around the poles for construction equipment and vehicles um during that time and where access and work pads are located within wetlands. Eversource utilizes temporary timber matting to create a surface between the resources and construction equipment. Once the work is completed, Eversource will remove the timber matting and temporarily impacted wetlands will be stabilized with a seedless mulch um and monitored for stabilization. So again, this is replacement of existing poles um just maintenance of the utility line uh no installation of additional infrastructure and not widening of the right of way. Um so that that's really the overview summary of what we're doing.

Fantastic. All right, I will um before I come to the board, I'll start with staff. I know you said you're all set. I'm sure you're still all set. All right, board. Fantastic. Seems like this is we've seen several of these before. The same old same old pretty standard what you've been doing for a while now. So,

yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. I'll just add a few words. Yeah. Just again, continuence of what we call asset condition replacement structure work. Um you've seen us do this many times. I'm sure the question gets raised, why don't you just replace them all? Um, we do have to follow inspection protocols. There's been um Eversource's program is to look for opportunity structures where there's savings to be had if we're especially if we're doing lots of matting. You know, makes sense to change a structure next to it if that's going to have to be replaced two, three years down the road. That sort of thing. So, um there's been a lot of pressure recently uh on Eversource by New Hampshire Office of Consumer Affairs, uh where we've proposed to do full line rebuilds and there's been a lot of scrutiny on the company uh lately people um participating in the ISO New England approval process and um sort of giving us feedback that we should be doing the bare minimum, you know, that we shouldn't be going above and beyond. So, um, we appreciate the town's patience and and us constantly coming back for the onesies and twzies. Um, our review process now is, um, there's more scrutiny on us in terms where we might look to do a few more opportunity structures now. We're trying to be as prudent as possible in light of the the the pressure on us with respect to um cost considerations, even though you look at long-term costs, there's a safety. Just want to give you guys the context since you see us so many times.

Absolutely. I'm sure this won't be the last one. No, it won't be. No, not at all. Absolutely. Thank you for explaining that. Yeah. Oh, you're quite welcome. Thank you. Uh I'm going to open it up to public. Public have any comment and I will close public comment and bring it back to the board. Uh looks like we have a conditional use permit to uh look at. Mr. Chair. Yes, sir. You entertain a motion, sir? I would.

Okay. I will move that we approve the applicant's request for a conditional use permit to allow 2,15 square ft of temporary wetland impacts and 9,700 for square feet of permanent wetland buffer impacts for equipment access and work pad replace uh work pad placement associated with the proposed structure replacements located within the cons conservation overlay district for the 380 transmission line in the area of High Range Road and Mayflower Drive. This is own Agricultural Residential One. Kurt Nelson is the applicant and public service company of New Hampshire Eversource is the owner in accordance with the CUP application prepared by GZA Geo Environmental Incorporated dated July 15th, 2025.

Have a motion from Mr. Rug. Do I have a second? I'll second that, Mr. Chair. Second from Lynn. All in favor starting with Giovani, please. Tony Veroni, I. Tony D, I Lyn Wilds, I. Jeff Penta I Rug I Jason I Sean Fever I and the uh chair votes in the affirmative. The uh cup has been granted. Thank you folks. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Not a problem. All right, moving on here. Uh we are getting into other business. We have the master plan steering committee update.

Good evening, Sylvia. Nice to see you. Good evening. Good to see everyone again. A lot has happened in the last 14 months. When we started, I'm supposed to clicker on the Oh, right here. Oh, yeah. So, 14 months ago, we started this process and at that time I was sitting in that seat and being your town planner as Kelly was on her way. Now, she has a one-year-old. So that's exciting right there. Right.

So we have a new planner on the way. Um but let's just go right into this and I appreciate everyone's time. So let's talk about what we've done. I'm here tonight with Zach Swick, our GIS analyst and data guru in general. And so tonight we're going to talk about the master plan. Um, and for our home viewers, I know this group is probably very well aware of the purpose and process of a master plan, but for our home viewers, we'll just do a quick overview. Um, we also will talk about the community outreach, um, what we heard from the community, the guiding principles that were developed, and the draft vision. Um, Zach will then go into the key demographics. He'll also cover the land use patterns and housing trends and then it'll come back to me for proposed strategies for land use and housing. And just to recognize those are a couple of the toughest probably if there are controversial um chapters in a master plan those are typically them. So, we've uh I think uh it's we're pretty excited about having gone through this process and having some good land use and housing strategies. Then we'll talk about um planning board and have you provide some feedback and um then we'll talk about next steps. All right. So, the um next the next steps pro uh sorry purpose and process. Uh first let's talk about the steering committee. Um a year ago this group decided let's get a steering committee together. Um this was just as Kelly was getting ready to go on maternity leave. And so you can see some of our representatives. Um couple from this board as well as

conservation commission, the recreation commission, town council, uh heritage and historic district commission, zoning board of adjustment, utility committee, and of course the planning board. Um so all those that whole team becoming our master plan subcommittee has provided a lot of great input. And why is the master plan update important? Well, first it's a requirement under New Hampshire RSA. It also sets the long-term vision and priorities for land use, housing, infrastructure, and growth. It's a fundamental um document for the community. It guides zoning updates and future planning efforts. It's basically a tool which the community can use and it reflects the community values and planning board leadership. So the process to date has been that first this planning board a year ago um initiated the process seeing that their own um master plan was over 10 years old. uh the the steering committee was formed as I've reviewed and then uh the work um between the steering committee, town staff, southern New Hampshire planning commission and of course residents have been involved. So let's talk really briefly about what we heard and the um community outreach that was done. So we created this survey um and that was of course a organized effort between the steering committee and the staff and our our team at Southern New Hampshire Planning Commission and we got just

under 1,400 survey responses. some of the outreach we did. You can see that first top picture that was from old home day. Uh we also were present at the elections. We did a presentation at the senior center. We had tables at the library here at the town offices. We also had um a presence on the website. We have our own web page and it can be found for our home viewers. If you go to the town website and look for the master plan steering committee, you'll find the master plan website. Um, we also did quite a bit uh thanks to the steering committee on social media and a lot of Facebook work. Um, and residents shared priorities on quality of life here in Londereerry, regional concerns, land use, housing and growth. Um just to give you a quick snapshot on uh the who participated compared to the population in London. You can see in blue there um is the population and uh in orange on the right is the survey participation. Um the first category 20 and under that's probably not a surprise to anyone but you can see we had a good response from each category with the most being the 45 to 64. But we are pretty happy with this response. Um let's talk about some key land use themes that we received feedback on. First, people were very vocal that Londereerry is a welcoming and livable community. They're very interested in preserving wooded areas and maintaining the town's rural character. They care about creating walkable neighborhoods

and allowing mixeduse development in around the airport. Um, promoting a vibrant mixeduse village center was um provided quite a bit of feedback on that. and then incorporating on-site amenities such as playgrounds and multi-use trails in new residential developments to reduce demand on town facilities. Um feedback on areas that they would like uh town staff and town boards to consider is consideration on community character and culture preservation on open space, balanced growth and uh regulatory concerns. Discussed affordability and varied housing choices, infrastructure concerns. um res there's definitely resistance to high density housing um concerns about traffic and safety and talk about walkability. When we looked at housing themes, what came out was that there were really no standouts to preferred housing types. So, as an example, single family homes were the most supported, but only by 55% saying they were very needed. That was an emphasis by um mother nature. Thank you for laughing. And uh so very needed and needed at 20% um oh sorry 55% at very needed and needed and 20% at not wanted and not needed. The next categories were ADUs, accessory dwelling units and housing for all ages which were also supported um but not by a huge uh majority there 41

to 36% with 33 and 31% saying it was not wanted and not needed. So it was a very even spread there. allow for um other themes that came up in housing was to allow for a variety of housing um for a wide range of income levels. Um common suggestion to create more affordable housing was to allow for small homes on small lots. There were growth concerns and general dissatisfaction with PUDS and planned unit developments and multifamily with 56 and 61% not wanting it and not needing it. Um, for housing, what was suggested for town staff and town boards to consider preservation of small town character, balanced development, and allowing for a variety of housing, affordable housing again, um, opposition to overdevelopment, traffic and infrastructure needs, um, taxation in financial burdens, impact on schools and community services, and community amenities. ities. So the master plan steering committee along with staff and our team um took that input and started with um looking at guiding principles and a draft vision statement. So the the master plan steering committee came up with these seven guiding principles. Balance residential and commercial development with responsible growth. Promote efficient municipal services and high quality infrastructure with consideration for future needs. Invest in cultural heritage, historical heritage, and

community engagement for all ages and abilities. Support environmental stewardship. Establish policies and objectives that encourage a variety of housing choices. create community transportation connections from walking to riding to driving and value education and familyfriendly environment. So this all started then working on the vision and the master plan steering committee again in a workshop format felt that the vision needed to be as aspirational include responsible spending move away from the small town feel to a community that had all modern-day conveniences highlighted environmental stewardship and New Hampshire's unique characteristics and acknowledged the excellent quality of service provided by the town. So, here's the draft vision. London values its unique character, agricultural heritage, and natural beauty while embracing responsible growth and modern conveniences. Residents and town officials are committed to maintaining a high quality of life while ensuring fiscal responsibility through sound investments in infrastructure, town services, and community programs as good environmental stewards. London Dairy fosters development while preserving its distinctive New Hampshire identity, natural resources, and ensures a thriving, inclusive community for generations to come. Any questions so far from the board? Okay, let's move it to Zach who will take it to the next steps.

Okay, so I'm going to just highlight a number of different facts and figures just to give us an idea of where we are. Uh so key demographic trends, I like to take the long view. So this is London's population over time going back from 1850 to 2020. And you can see that for about a hundred years there

Londereerry didn't grow. Actually probably shrunk a little bit and that's very common for this area uh because mills opened up and uh people went out west where there was actual top soil to farm. Uh but you can see there in 1993 uh the I'm sorry in 1960 I93 opens and there was then an explosive growth and so between 1960 and 2000 lender's population grew by 21% annually. So every year it was growing by 21%. Starts to slow down a little bit in the 90s and uh you know but still growing. So this is London's population pyramid where we have in blue the male and in red the females and then we have you know a fiveyear age gra uh age bands where each one makes up a percentage of the total population. You might be saying to yourself that doesn't look like a pyramid. Uh and that's true. The the reason is historically and then in today still in developing countries there's usually many kids at the bottom and then as you move up it gets smaller and smaller. Here we can see that that's not the case. you have, you know, uh, it's skinny at the bottom. Then there's a bump out around uh you know 10 to 19 and then it drops again as people move away in their 20s and then it comes back a little bit as people move back in the region have families and then we have that big uh that big wave there that that's demograph demographers call the silver tsunami which is that wave of baby boomers entering into uh you know uh the last ages of their lives and so And also note that this is from 2020. So this is at five years old now at this point. And I would expect that whole

wave to actually have moved another, you know, band there towards the 80s. Here we have minors per household. On the left is 1980 and on the right is 2020. Here we can see London, the SNHPC region in New Hampshire. So in you know in 1980 London had about 1.1 minors per household. Today it's about 0.6. So you know the rate has dropped a lot. Uh it's still higher than the SHPC region in New Hampshire as a whole but there's been a steep decline over that period. Oh I should also comment if anyone has any questions please ask now and not wait till the end one because I'm if you were me I'd forget. Here we have London public school enrollment going back to uh a decade. See it's fallen from around 4,400 to now it's about less than uh 3,900. Okay. So now cover some of the land use patterns. So this is the zoning district aotment comparison. So on we have the zoning district then we have the number of acres and then we have the percentage of the total land in londereerry we see by far the largest zoning district is agricultural residential uh multif family makes up just 1.4% 4%. Uh commercial is about 5%. Industrial is 12%. Lendary does have a fair amount of industry which most people won't probably wouldn't know but uh you have a fair amount of commercial and uh industrial. And then the gateway business district that's just zoning. What's the actual land use look like? So this is the land

use type. the current land use type as of uh let's see earlier this year you have the the type the acres and uh as a total percentage of land and you can see that by you know the plurality is single family residential making up 41% of the uh total area multif family residential makes up 3.3% and then you know commercial industrial airport I was a little surprised the airport was as low as it is civic and institutional. That'd be like with the building we're sitting in right now. Uh 14% is open and recreational space and 14.8% is is classified as vacant land. Now some of that is uh it can be any number of things. It can be an unbuildable lot. It could be in some cases uh utility rightway. So, or it could just be uh you know woods that has not been developed. It's a little hard to see here, but on the left is again the current land use. And I'll describe it because it is so small, but the all the yellow that you see there is single family residential currently single residential family. Uh the multif family is in brown. Uh commercial is kind of a pink salmon. Uh the green is the open space and recreational space. So you can see mud squash over there doing a nice job conserving a long a large continuous piece of u conservation area. And then the uh in purple is the vacant land. So you can see it's going to scattered all around uh the town, but most of it north of uh 102.

Can I stop you there? Sure. So, so bacon land Mhm. is that that's land owned by others or owned by private individuals other than the town. It's uh Yes. So because in this case other than the town other than the town because in the in this analysis the town would fall under institutional because even though if unless it's used for open space be open space and recreation. Correct. Yeah. if it's being used for that. I guess I would follow up one other question. What is agricultural use versus the single family?

Agricultural means it's being used as a farm. It's agricultural use. Now, there's a cav caveat with that is that if the the way the uh the way the uh assessing data works that if you have a house on your farm, it's going to show up as single family. It doesn't differentiate between uh you know hey this is single family and this is farming over here that if it's labeled as agricultural that means it's only that parcel is only agricultural use there is no uh improved Oh so that's why it's so low. Yeah. So this is miss all the hobby farms that sort of stuff that's missing from that.

Well but if you have if you have a 50 acre farm with a house on it it's residential. Yeah, that 50 acres goes into residential, not agricultural. Yep. Thank you. The way the assessing data works, they're interested in the house. They're not really interested in in the farm itself.

On the right there is you can see a map with two colors. The black is all the land use, land cover that was disturbed or developed in 2013. I picked that year because that's the year of your previous uh master plan. And then anything newly disturbed or developed within that time period up to 2023 is in red. So you can see out by the airport in the northwest corner all around Pentingill Road. All that you can also see uh Woodmont Commons is that red there over uh kind of in the middle on the right. Sorry, sorry. Can I go back to the previous slide? So,

uh, look, go back table 16. Yeah. So, there's a there's a better than average chance. See the hesitation when I try to be nice. It really confuses me. The the there's a huge chance that this data is going to be misinterpreted. And so if I were writing this document, I would put a disclaimer on it

with some kind of an explanation that that says that because there there could be there will be there probably will be some people that are going to twist this data for their own gain. Whatever that gain happens to be with If you if you put an explanation in, there's less of a chance that it could be misinterpreted. That's right. And that example that we just gave of the 50 acres, a 50 acre farm, a 100 acre farm, a 200 acre farm with one house on it,

is going to be credited towards single family residential, not agricultural. And I think that's that's a huge paradigm shift, right? In a town like London area that has that. Um, and in fact, if if we use Max Apples as as a as as an example, there are several single family homes in amongst all that acreage. Um, and I would I would say that I don't even know how it it had to be subdivided land that showed up in the 773 acres because I don't know a farm that in London area that doesn't have a house on it, right?

Yeah. Sunny Crest has one. So, that would be That's what I'm saying. So, exactly. I can add to that. Now, now what we learned in the in a couple meetings ago, Max apples, they have several subdivided parcels of of different parcels of land that don't have a house on it, which I'm sure is part of the 773 acres. My long- winded short story is clearly London has more than 773 acres of agricultural land in the town. There's no question. And so people need to know why it's only saying 773.

Okay. So I mean I'm offering that as a as a suggestion. Obviously I'm not on the committee. I'm not No, I think that's a valid suggestion. We also look at it's not in any of the uh not in any of the documents tonight. But we also look at land cover. So we do say break it down by okay how much of it is actually pasture? How much of it is you know crop cover? How much is it orchards? So there are other ways that we try to capture that within the data. We just can't capture that from the zoning data alone. Yeah. And I mean so

so let me let me just ask to clarify. Sure. Um so we received a report um that was actually that was reviewed by the steering committee. Um is these clarifications do those reside in that report? You're talking about the different types of data. No, what I'm talking about is the actual report that's going to eventually hopefully go to a public hearing um that was presented to this board um two weeks ago and that we should all read that should have all that should have included

more information there as well as the the appendex and stuff like that. You mean the demographics chapter where we specifically went through and um placed the I just want to see if there is missing information that is actually in the in the actual physical report rather than this you know highle presentation which is good by the way I just want to kind of I I don't remember

well the what you saw at the last master plan steering committee is already on the website and that is an appendix to the first chapters and that is an explanation of the data and the various sources. It isn't an explanation of what Tony is talking about now. So, so this chart that we're looking at that's up on the screen right now is not in the report. I believe it is in the report. Sorry. I believe it is in the report. It is in the report. It is, but the defining each uh definition is not like what my recollection

this caveat that that we've just been talking about the last five minutes. We can provide that in there. We will we've taken note of this. Okay. Another clarifying question with vacant land. Is that the same situation where you have 50 acres that's vacant, but there's a house up front on one acre? No. So, the vacant land has no improvements on it. So, that would mean no house or anything. So, it's a parcel that it's a parcel of trees improvement. Yes. Or in some cases, the quarry up in the northeast part of town is classified as vacant in the zoning continental or in the uh Yes.

South southwest part of town. Not northeast the he's talking the one on Auburn you're talking well yeah pick one bro yeah so that was for because it doesn't have anything of it's a value to assessing is listed as vacant so it's considered vacant so I think it's it is important to just call that out all these terminologies or definitions that support the number of acreage because I mean it just say uh the musk squash had one house on it and it was

on 3,000 acres or something to that effect it would be considered agricult uh single family residential. No, if that because I because I have a separate data set from that of conservation lands that comes from the state and from the town so I can account for that. Okay. So easement, if you have an if you have 50 acres and your house is on there and you have an easement, it's classified as conservation because I have additional data to be able to make that distinction. So I we're looking for definitions, I think, is what we're looking for. Definitions to each land use type for clarification would be what the board's looking for.

Okay, anybody else? Moving on. Were we on this or did we pass this? We just finished that. You would be at key housing trends. Okay, key housing trends. Moving on.

Here we have a breakdown of the makeup of uh Londereerry's housing stock. So here we have Londere at the top. Then we have single family detached, single family attached. That'd be like a town home. Two units, three or more units, five or more units, manufactured or other. others like camper. Uh and so uh for all these you can see that you know 69% of lender's um housing units are single family detached 13 are attached and then you know we have small numbers of two and three units and then 12 uh 12% of all units are in structures that have five or more units. Uh and then there are some of the surrounding towns you compare that to is compared to like Auburn has very very few non-s single family. Bedford has a mix. Most people probably wouldn't know that but there is a you know fair number of multif family in Bedford. Same with Dair. Manchester not surprisingly it's about you know a third single family detached a third five or more units. But uh and

I'm sorry. No go ahead. No, I was just going to say so um so you mentioned like single family attached as townhouse. Would that also be duplex? Yes. Okay. And so if it's or the definition is two units. That'd be two units. Yeah. Okay. So, like for a single family attached, if it's a townhouse, but there's let's say 40 town houses in a development, are those all considered single family attached or are those those are all considered single under the census, those are all considered single family attached. So, if you have a development of a 100 town houses, those are all single family attached. Correct. Thank you.

Just means that the difference is they don't have multiple that for the census concern, they don't have multiple units. uh sharing border, sharing uh walls or being a one on top of each other. So, will ADUs then be two units when we get them? I don't think the census has figured that out yet. Uh that's your point. I would think so. It would probably be two units would be my guess. That's what I would do. The state data does it as two units. Okay, that makes sense. the uh you know ultimately it would come down well when this is the for the American community survey it would depend on what how the person responded for some of these and how they're prompted

so they might say I'm a single oh I have a single family home and they don't think about the that's a good point that said with these uh they typically do send somebody out into the field to talk them through it so so don't know

and in New Hampshire you can see that you know we do have a you know majority 30 unsurprisingly single family detached, but we do have, you know, 15% of all units are in buildings that have five or more units. Here we have a figure of London's annual building permits 1990 to 2023. So the black line there is total units and the uh blue line is units that are in a building with two or more units in the building. And keep in mind these are housing We're calculating the housing units, not the actual building permits themselves. So, if you have a you're building a a duplex, it's not one permit, it's two housing units. Uh you see that there's a building we were building a lot of single family homes there in the 90s and then a little bit in the 2000s and then financial crisis happens and nobody's building anything for a number of years and then it picks up again in 2014. uh with you know uh considerably more less single family home units. Uh and you you also see it kind of comes in waves you know there's a big you know struct uh development comes through they build it and then the next year there's not anything and then there's another development and the next year there's nothing I have uh 24 2024 numbers and they are significant uh but I didn't have time I didn't have them before I got this uh graph made in 2024 by my count uh 372 total units so that would be the most of any year so are were permitted. Of those, 305 were in uh in buildings with five or more units. The vast, as far as I can tell, the vast majority of those are the multif family that was built over at Woodmont Commons. So, you can think of, you know, uh

just west of uh uh I forget the senior center. I can't remember the name there.

Yeah. So, yeah. So, a lot of this is just Woodmont Commons. Uh, and of 336 in general, we're in buildings of two or more units. Here we have Londerey new home sales. This annually, and you can see that, you know, back in 1990, it was selling about 80 a year. And then that picks up in the 90s when you're building new stuff. and then falls off with the recession and then just never recovers. So, you know, now, you know, in 2020, I forget what year this goes to, 2023, I believe, you built, you know, a quarter of the units, new units or you sold a quarter of the new units that you did in 1990. Okay, so this graph has got a lot going on here, but we're trying to compare housing costs and growth. So there you'll see that there's actually four lines on uh the screen because when it this when this presentation was pasted, an error occurred and we lost the legend for the red line. The red line is the Turner construction cost index which is Turner Construction is an international construction firm. There are lots of um building cost indexes out there, but most of them are behind pay walls. So, this is the only one I had uh or one of the only ones that I had uh at my fingertips. The uh so the blue line is the London medium purchase price. The green line is the consumer price index and the uh purple line is the producer price index for single family home construction materials. And all those are indexed at 2015 values at 100. That's to say see how much they can grow

compared to each other. You can see we talked about inflation. You see that uh the consumer price index increased by about 29% over that time period while construction costs were considerably higher and the median purchase price in London area was even higher still. So grew by 84%. over that you know less than a decade coming to the end of mine so cost burden households in London are a a household is considered cost burden housing cost burden when they spend 30% or more of their income on housing to whole total housing cost so you know rents utilities uh property taxes all of it so for all households In Londereerry about three in 10 are housing cost burdened. For those with a mortgage or those without a mortgage it's about 25%. So one in four. Uh for renters it's a majority of renting households are cost burden cost burdened and housing cost burdened. Just looking that a little bit differently putting that in real numbers terms in Londereerry about 2700 households are housing cost burdened. uh a major and again a majority of renting households are costbururden and I believe I have one slide left.

How how does that compare with the state? I don't remember to be honest. Okay. Uh for renting my guess is probably a little higher than usual but most places are housing cost have high rates of housing cost burden. It varies town to town to some extent. Sorry, I'm struggling with this one. So, it went the wrong way. So, 25% of households with or without a mortgage. Yeah. 25% each.

So, just 25% of owner occupied households, homeowning households are housing costs burdened. So, so whether you had a mortgage or not, 25% were still overburdened. Correct. How's that work? My guess is by the time you get to pay your mortgage off, you're retired. There's enough people retired and now you're just income. Yeah. Your costs are lower, but your income's also lower. Got it. Thank you.

And think of Londereerry, at least I do, of as a, you know, community of homeowners, but it's important to remember that, you know, a lot of people do rent at Londereerry as well. one in six households in lendary rents. Uh, which was a number that surprised me. I believe that's the end of mine if it All right, I have a couple others. Sure, if you don't mind. Yes, please go ahead. I'm going on the way back machine. Where too? Up on page.

Um, so just a general question on the surveying. How is how do you as as a I guess as a commit I guess it's a question for Jeff as well. How do you anticipate or should you anticipate the needs of the people who aren't taking the survey? You know is what is it 26,000 people in town and you had 1,400 take a survey. And so how Is there is there a gauge or is there any way that that you have to try and figure out what people really want? Because you have 20 24,500 people didn't take a sur didn't take the survey,

right? 25,500 did not take the survey and you're trying to guess what they need. Is that is that a fair statement? always difficult to do. You know, then that's the problem with doing a survey like this that is not a scientific randomized survey and we couldn't do that just because that would be very very expensive and you do that sort of thing then you can try to account for people uh response bias here. here we can't do that but so we have to do other venues to try to

from Sylvia's standpoint is but you're but are you are you basing your summary analysis of what the town needs on the responses from 1400 people so that is a very good question for the next portion of this okay I I actually have a question going back to the survey as well um on slide 12. The part that talks about very needed versus not needed, right? Um, okay. I think you're going the wrong way. Oh gosh, wrong way. Sorry. Do something, Kelly. Do something. No worries. Can you do something? I don't know. I don't know how I got there.

You just answer his question. There you go. Yep. So, um, you know, it in in there it says 20% view single family homes as not needed, not wanted, not needed. 33% view ADUs and housing for all ages as not wanted, not needed. Is there a way of knowing how many of those people just across the board were like, no, we don't want anything, you know, as opposed to being able to say, we we do want this, not that. And it would just be interesting to know like what percentage of those people are like no I don't want to do

on on everything. Yeah. I suppose we could do additional analysis on on the survey but there comes to be a point. I mean really the the first bullet is what really stood out was that there were no standouts for preferred housing. I can tell you it's under 20%. Just looking at that because they they answered 20% answered no on that. It had to be under 20, right? So 80% would have said would have not responded that way. Yeah. No, I I was just and and you may not be able to tell at all. I don't know. I was just wondering

like because I hear of all I I talked to people who are like, "Nope, everybody wants to be the last house built in town." So, nope. Nope. Don't. So, I'm just I was just wondering if that was if if that was like in the data or anything like that. It it could be. Okay, that's fine. Um, but let's go back to Tony because I don't want to leave you hanging. Um, so the master plan Okay. A really good hanger. Okay. I have because I have another question. Am I on that slide or um should I move on and see if we answer your question? The question is on what you just presented. Oh, I keep doing that.

So, key housing focus areas for town and staff boards. The first b bullet is preservation of small town character. Okay. Then you go down to building the vision. Yes, I know what you're going to say. I was thinking the same thing. of community away from small town to a community that has all the modern day conveniences, right? So, am I missing something or is that two different things? That is two.

No, I tell you and and since we have so many folks here on the steering committee, um, plus art was at almost at every meeting. So there was a lot of discussion about the small town feel and um this is not the only town that wants to keep its community character or feel that they have a small town but I believe and correct me Jeff and Jake and the rest who were and of course Sean um what I heard from that discussion from the committee was you know we were a small town But we did a lot of workshopping in that committee. And one of the things we did was we looked at the aerials of the building and people really in that committee recognized, you know, it once was a small town, but we have to recognize all the building that has occurred. And so I think what they wanted to do was sort of recognize maybe it's not such a small town. At least depending on where you are in the town, depending on what uh arterial you're driving, it doesn't feel like a small town. Doesn't feel like a small town over at Woodmont Commons or by the airport. But there are sections that do feel like small town. You drive up to Mac Apples and you feel ah we have this beautiful, you know, agricultural area. We have this farm. We have it's just fantastic. and you go to the old home day and you appreciate the parade and you do that and you feel like this is an old a hometown but they wanted to recognize that it has changed that it has modernized that there there you know we have Wi-Fi and we have modern-day conveniences and all of that and I think there was a lot of back and forth on that I don't know please

yeah I think you know a lot of the conversation was taken the wrong way. Uh, a lot of the conversation was, you know, we we enjoy the small town feel, but the reality is Londereerry hasn't been a small town since a highway went through the middle of it. Um, and that was a conversation that was recognized at the master plan level that maybe we're using small town the wrong way. Um, but you know, the the committee did recognize as a whole that London is not a small town and it has not been a small town for a very long time.

Yeah. And so and so I I would agree with both of the last things that were said. Um, you're you're that number one bullet that says provision preservation of small town character. That ship sailed a long time ago. I came in in 1978. It was a small town. It It's a It's a matter of perception as well. If if you move up here from Quincy, you're in God's country, right? I came here from Winter, Massachusetts on two square miles with 27,000 people, this is a small town, believe me. But if you move if you move down from Kas County, this is Boston,

you know, like so the perception of small town is entirely based on what it's like traffic. And I think I think we were trying to recognize that of like, you know, no, we're we're not a small town. We are a growing community, but we do have, you know, these little small town essences, the old homes days and the the preserved areas throughout town. And

so for pre I'm trying to I'm trying to help with the presentation part of it. So where you have that dichotomy there, do should they both be there or should one go away or do you need another you need another explainer of why why that dichotomy exists in in different parts of of of your presentation or your booklet or whatever it's going to be. Well, that when you look at the vision and that first sentence, I think you have that. Okay. You're it. Like I said, London values its unique character, its agricultural heritage and natural beauty while embracing responsible growth and modern conveniences.

And I think that was I'm trying to remember here. I believe that was the conversation was small town and things like unique character and agriculture agricultural heritage were kind of being mixed together and we tried to delineate you know in respect the unique character of the town which people are calling small town while recognizing that not a small town I'm agreeing with you I'm just trying to make this thing work yeah I know what you're saying and one of the things clarification you know for the general public.

And one of the things I had brought up in that meeting is that's one of the great things about this town. You can live in different parts of this town and have a completely different experience and and how you know if you want you want the Woodmont feel, you can live there. If you want to live on a small road where you don't really see a lot of traffic going by, you can do that. And that's the great part about this town. But to try to cookie cutter blanket describe London area and say all of London area should go this way or that way is not really easy to do. So that displays in here. It also displays in the wants and needs of the residents here because they do have diverse wants and some of them conflict. But that also reflects the diverse community this is as far as how it's structured in the different parts. I do think that um slide 16 though pro if whatever deck is going out in the public I slide 16 and 17 you know essentially what you're doing with slide 16 is you're explaining what we what the steering committee talked about. Slide 17 is the result of that conversation. If the intent was to demonstrate to the public and demonstrate to the community the actions that we took, you know, you I would avoid um what exactly we what exactly that is, you know, kind of we're talking about because that the result of those conversations was the draft vision. I would more or less say the MPCSC workshop this etc etc spent you know um x and amount of hours and discussions and and such like that to demonstrate that rather than have words that could be that you know as Tony has demonstrated um conflict with that your neck with our next slide there. Is it the header that's a problem? Because I'm looking at the

header that I'm looking at on I guess it's 13 says key housing focus areas for town staff and boards. Key you're telling the the town staff and boards that the key housing focus is preservation of small town character. Right. That's what it says on 13. Right. So, is it the header that's wrong or No, I think it's I think it needs to be preservation of town character, unique character in agricultural heritage as opposed to small town charact because I think that if I'm I'm trying to remember, I think that's how the conversation of this whole small town thing came up is we were like it's being used the wrong way. Yes. you know,

but I but I think you can fix that by saying um become a community that has all the modern day conveniences with a small town feel because we have that you know we have the best of both worlds like Sean was saying this town before any of us or some of us might have been here um but you know they've done a good job about putting commercial on 10 commercializing 102 you know if I don't want if I want to feel like I'm in the country I could I could drive around town for an power and stay in the country. But if I want to get to Home Depot, it's right there. If I want to get to wherever, it's right there, which is which is nice. And you have this whole everything they've done with the town, the schools in the center of town and the and and the all the playing fields and ball fields, everything's this is what feels like when I drive through here in the morning, I feel like I'm in a small town. It's great. Then I hit the highway and back to reality.

From from Adams Road to Shasta Drive, you feel like you're right. So I think that I get the steering committee's point of about wanting to become, you know, a community that has all modern day conveniences conveniences, but if you go back to the other slide, they we still want the small town feel. I like the and you can do that. So So we can do that without doing with with it won't conflict if you say with a small town feel. I like that because let's face it, you're right. We are a community, but we still want to, you know, we don't want a Home Depot on the Comet. You know what I mean? Like we want the small town feel. Yeah, I agree. No, very well put. I think that I think that takes care of the problem. Yeah, very well put.

One thing I don't want to get lost in here is something like Jeff said and I thought it's a very important point. We look at that slide number 16. I think it's if that's in the actual chapter that's confusing on how we got there because I think a lot of people can take a look at that and go, "Oh, you're saying that and then you ended up here." Is it important to say what the journey was to get there? Because because that's what slide 16 says to me. So I think it's it's articulated a lot more and with with more detail in the actual okay chapter. Okay. Good. Because if I read the third piece there, move away from small town and community, I'm thinking we want to be Manchester.

Yeah. Well, remember this is just um an overview. This is just an overview and um no but if the vision is move away from a small town I don't think that conflicts with the other but the vision's not it's I'm sorry this is why I this is why we have to be careful what we put in these slides. Slide 16 directly conflicts with slide 17 which is the draft vision that the master plan steering committee approved. That is the approval one and that should be the one what we should be discussing this evening not slide information that's on slide 16. Yes. So, let's just delete slide 16.

Well, that information I believe is in the master plan right now in the draft chapter and we'd have to see how that's presented, but I because that was part of what do we have the draft chapter in our folder? I I'll add it in a second. Let me see if that is. Yep, it is on page five.

She's adding it now. So, the London area vision starts on page four and goes to page five. We don't have it yet. I think she's adding it into our file now. Um, you can actually, um, just go to your town website to get it from there. [Music]

Should be. Thanks, Kelly. Y yeah,

but this kind of relates to the question Tony had earlier, which is how when400 people answered the survey and the master plan steering committee developing these different recommendations. How does that work when we have so many more thousand people who did not get involved? So, the steering committee didn't just use the survey and that feedback. They used the feedback plus the demographics plus the fact that you have people from all these different boards representing uh the different committees and so they used a lot of information. the feedback was one portion

and and it's really hard to try to gauge what somebody wants if they haven't told you, you know, but that's that's true and I I think it's a a really good representation actually when you look at the the people who did respond and um the number of responses, 1400 is

is so Manchester's uh zoning ordinance survey which had the most outreach I think I've ever seen for any local survey just in terms of just all these meetings and everybody getting sent something in the mail. They had fewer responses for that. So 1,400. Yeah, it's not, you know, the whole town, but it's a pretty good size. What is that? 5%. I was about to say 5% is a pretty good return on a survey. I think that's I would, you know, I nothing to sneeze at. So yeah, while it doesn't represent everybody, I think it's it's a good representation far better than other communities. It's excellent.

So on page five, it still says the committee felt the 2025 vision needed to be move away from small town to community that had all the modern day conveniences. And I'm not sure that's what you want to say. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah. to me is uh can I say that we're we're in transition. I mean my tenure in London area we've been constantly changing and the town has really looked at itself as a small town. That's how it thinks but the reality is it is is growing. So, if I were writing the sentence, it would say, "The committee felt that 25 vision needed to be a community that had all the modern-day conveniences with with um maintaining a small town feel, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's how I would write it." If I think that solves everything um we're happy to add that. I think that does kind of Yeah, whatever.

Because that was really what we were getting at was because I've never met anybody in London area and I know a lot of people that said, "Oh, we don't want a small town." That's why you moved to London area. You know what I mean? With the conveniences. There are other plenty of other small towns that don't have those other stores and things like that around. I sought this I sought this place out for Boston. I told my friends I had an acre. They asked me what kind of a doctor I go to see for that. This is this is this is the whole reason I brought my family here, you know. Well, and I'm a guy from 1978. That's good. That that in n in what in 2025 enjoys being able to have goods and services locally 5 minutes away.

Well, not not just that, but I mean, how how many towns around us have townwide trash pickup? Correct. Derry does not have town trash pickup. So, we've been unique. I don't think the big city of Bedford does, do they? So I think I think right now I personally think it's a better town than it was in 1978 when I first moved here. I agree. So one person's opinion, but I think I think if you change that bullet with that small town feel thing somewhere in there somehow, however you want to word Smith it, I think I think it it it makes a better vision. So the

and I do think that still supports the discussion that we had on a master plan level because the discussion that we had on the master plan level was we need to recognize that London area is not a small town but we very much have a small town feel. So that third bullet on the top of page five, what do you want to read?

Recognize a growing town. Recognizing the growth of the community that has all modern-day conveniences with a small town feel while keeping while keeping the small town. Yeah. Does that sound good? Yeah. I mean, we as a town, we know we're growing, but I think all of us sitting here at least are going to fight tooth and nail to try to keep that small town feel for as long as we can. I mean it's it it's inevitable that you know all of New Hampshire is growing southernwise and it's even when you go up north now there's bill 20 years from now Louden will be dealing with what we're dealing right exactly the progression of life. Yeah.

They'll be looking at our master plan. See how he handles it. They'll be debating this sentence. Yes. All right. I just want to read it one more time. Maintaining a small town feel while maintaining a small town feel I think is what people seem to like building the vision was that yeah wanted a community that had all the modern-day conveniences while maintaining a small town feel all right so the first part has now changed again so I had recognize a growing community was the beginning instead of move away from a small town to a community So

yeah, you're not you're not moving away from a small town. No. So now I had recognize uh a growing community that has all the modern-day conveniences while maintaining a small town feel. So how was this worded on the survey? Because if I remember correctly, this was the number two item as far as what people wanted for this community. And I'm wondering what that exact wording was that we used there. The first one I think was maintain a responsible tax rate and then the second part was maintain it's it was worded well.

I have to look for that question. So the question was I believe the question was when cons there are a couple questions when considering the future of Londereerry what would you like the town to be known for? So that was one of them and that the number one was great town to raise a family. Then a growing town that maintains its his I think it's historic charm. Um that's it. And then the next No, that's the same question. Yeah.

So wait, growing town that maintains its historic New England character was the second one. Um, where did we get move away from small town? Move. So that was it's getting a little mixed up. Yeah, there was a conversation about and I'm trying to go back like six months at this point. There was a conversation about at the master plan the need to recognize that Londereerry is not and has not been a small town for a long time because it was being taken out of context.

And the the the fact of the matter is Londereerry has not been a small town since the highway came through Londereerry and we saw 20% growth year after year. That's when Londereerry stopped becoming a small town and the board felt as though it was important to recognize that Londereerry is not a small town while we still still do have a small town feel and the board felt as though it was important to to recognize that we're not we have a small town feel but we are not a small town hasn't been a small town for so does this change is

no I think this I think I I think we're still fine with it. I I I think it got taken out of context a little bit here and I think we've broughten up a very good point. Um but to answer his question where where did we come up with move away from a small town? The conversation was simply if you knew that precursor then that doesn't that makes sense. That's to me it all makes sense cuz I was there and I talked about it. Exactly. Exactly. But as somebody who's not there you need to have it. That's where the trip up comes. Correct. So I did find it. Uh for the next question, when thinking about London in its present state, what would you want to preserve the most?

Preservation of open space and farmland, connection to nature, cultural and his historical heritage, and small town charm. So I think I think the distinction and I think you're all capturing it is and what I remember it's not a small town but it has small town feel, small town charm. Correct. So I think that's the distinction here and what I'm and I can definitely see how this is very easily misconstrued if you were not part of that conversation. There are there are towns around Boston that are much bigger than us but have a small town charm. Correct. Correct. Nobody realized it's a big town until election day and then you're like where did all these people come from?

Yeah. When you're looped around Matthew Thor school or or if you live in South London area and you have to go register your kid in the school district. Yeah. The 25minut drive to get up north. So shall we try again? Yeah. on that bullet. We're c we're taking out move away from small town to a community that's out. Instead, we're recognizing a growing community that has all the modern-day conveniences while maintaining a small town feel. I think that's perfect. Board agree. Yes. Yep.

Fantastic. Okay, that's in that one. So now let's move to vision. We're not done. Charm makes sense. I was just gonna say because they use that still has to say it fault. And the reason I say that is because it's the exact wording in the survey. And part of why I was trying to draw from that is that's why you were trying to get to it. What did it say? And then I was just mulling around in my head. It popped out. So while maintaining a small town charm. The small town charm. While maintaining charm. I don't like the way small town feel and charm. Take just go with charm. That's what people said. That's fine

with how about can I say while maintaining its small town charm. Yeah, it's perfect. That's the best thing I've heard you say all night. That's fine. Um, all right. You're doing so well. Is that gonna be Come on. Hundary's new slogan, big town, small town feel. Yeah. Charming. All right. Small town charm. Sorry.

So on this one, can we add to the first sentence? Um, while embracing responsible growth and modern conveniences, while enjoying its small town charm. How would you like embracing responsible growth and modern conveniences while maintaining its small town charm? Its small town. Yeah. All in there twice. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I don't think confusing. Yeah. No, I think this pretty much captures it. You you like it the way it is.

I mean, small town charm is unique character and agricultural heritage. That is what our small town charm is. Those are three defining characteristics of small town. Fair. So, it's more detailed. Fair. All right. Shall we? Okay. Feel like there's a t-shirt. Let's We were switching on to somebody else. You had just finished up. We got to the h the thing with the pictures of houses. We are now Yes. proposed land use strategies button. So, we're now in proposed strategies for housing and land use. Are these current um dwellings in London area? No,

these are different types of housing. I believe the the top left is in London and so is I forget now, but I'm going to guess at least three. Yeah. Oh, so they're not in London area. Not necessarily. There's at least four of them that are okay. So, we're just these are just housing types. The four corners. Sorry. Okay. So, there's a lot of words here, so we'll take one bullet at a time. How's that?

Um, proposed land use strategies. coordinate land use boards and committees in the review of recommended zoning revisions and process strategies recommended by the current review and assessment of the Londereerry zoning ordinance that actually you'll hear from James in a short hopefully in just a few minutes about the housing opportunity grant that's that we're doing that zoning ordinance review so coordinating that uh support coordinated review and update of uh the PUD ordinance by the planning department and town staff as well as land use boards and committees. Support town staff review of reduced imperous surface and groundwater protection in all land use development applications. Identify north, south, and east west corridors for roadway improvements to reduce traffic congestions. Sorry, congestion. Work to identify, preserve, and invest in historical and cultural properties. Update open space, landscape and screening regulations that promotes preservation of forested areas, vegetated open space, street trees and improved landscape planting plans. Work with the conservation commission planning department and Londereerry trails trailways to map out potential connections to the Londereerry Rail Trail. Reimagine Londereerry as a walkable community. Promote new residential developments. Wait, prem have on-site amenities, including multi-use paths or sidewalks while working to establish white

walkable bikable connections on existing roadways when feasible. And in parenthesis, further discussion slashconfirmation.

So, I got two things on this. Number one, north,southeast, west corridors, right? Unless you're talking about Mammoth Road and 102, you're talking about updating somebody's street, which no longer makes it small town, right? The other thing is, and and I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying this is where these these conflicts come into play. and then reimagine Londoner as a walkable community with, you know, sidewalks and bike paths and stuff like that, which to many people is not that small town charming. Walkability becomes a city.

Exactly. Yeah. Now you got sidewalks. Now you got to plow sidewalks. Now you got So like there we, you know, we're requesting and and I saw this throughout and I think it's just the nature of this type of a project. There are so many conflicting, you know, if you want to do this for somebody now to somebody else, you have removed this small town charm that that they want. So, I'll agree with you. I I'll say especially on the second one with the sidewalks and all of that,

that that's actually over the line for me on on small town charm. I think I think we probably shouldn't go down that road. As far as the the north, south, east, west corridors, and I was a one behind that line because traffic for me is a really important issue in this town. As much as that may remove some of the small town charm, the reality is we've grown beyond 102 and Mammoth. I I I I don't disagree with you at all. I'm just saying the people who live on Yep. on high range road or you know the the roads that are going to be

impacted by this are going to jump and scream that they're no longer absolutely and and I live basically in the Londereerry village and I would love to see sidewalks in London village and in that area and I think it's a perfect place for it but then if you tell somebody else they're like on we could never have sidewalks so again it all depends on who you are what your perspective is And you know, and and one person's small town charm is another person's annoyance.

Well, and there's a common thing that people are complaining about when it comes to it. Even the the the people who live on those roads that may be those roads, everybody's complaining about people are going too fast down my road. They're cutting through this road. They're cutting through that road. We keep moving stop signs all over everywhere in the town. We keep moving speed limits from this one to this one to this one. And we're never really addressing the issue. And somebody's road is going to have to be like it's going to have to be somebody. And that's I live on Hall Road. It's become a 18-wheeler and drag strip. Y

ever since we put those those uh stop signs on Mammoth, which now for the people on Mammoth, they're like, "Oh, this is perfect." But for me living on Hall Road, where it's a straightaway, isn't it true through trucking road, too? Huh? I have seen I've seen I'm just saying it. seen 18 wheelers knock over the no through trucking sign. Yeah. The no trucking. Yeah. So like for those stop signs on Old Mammoth, they love it now because there's nobody driving down Old Mammoth. They're all going down Hall Road now. So you're right. And instead of playing whack-a-ole with the problems, even those roads that are the north, south, east, west quarters that we're going to identify, those roads are problematic to those people already. Yep.

They're already like, "Well, I can't get out into my street." Well, if we start doing some roadway improvements, maybe at least that'll get better. So, it's going to improve. It's not going to go back to the way it was, and it never will. And and I I I think these are right. I agree with these. I'm just saying, oh, the conflict. Exactly. That there is going to be that that there's this inherent conflict in this. I think it highlights the need for a in-depth analysis and true roadway improvement plan for the town of London area as a whole. I think it identifies that and highlights it.

Yeah. I I think another thing is is that like you get to the village area, you may not have sidewalks and sidewalks not may not be a requirement for walkable, but the de the village are is developed tighter density so that neighbors can walk to neighbors house

versus hey, can I get a ride from mom or dad to drive down the other end of the subdivision? that's actually a half a mile away but only three houses away, you know. So, there are other ways and I'm sure Creative Land use could could figure that out where you could create walkability without necessarily putting in a sidewalk. Yeah. And to and to that point, the the By the way, I love that whack-a-ole game. Thank you for bringing it up. Um the the sidewalks is is not necessarily the panacea that people think they are. You you can make you can make you can put a line down the road which

in some cities is a bike path, right? It's two white lines. Those are a disaster with a photo of a bike on it and that's and that's

put a put a person in it. Put a put a picture of a person in it and now you have a walkway. Right. So, there's another way to do it besides a sidewalk. The the the language says uh as appropriate or when necessary or whatever it said. Um but but there's going back to the comprehensive plan that the chairperson just so eloquently spoke of. The the other way to do this whole thing is instead of redesigning all the roads in town so that the people from the north and the south and the west can get to where the goods and services are which is exit 4. instead provide those or or help zoning allow for those goods and services at exit 5. Now you have I'm going to throw out a number that's probably not right. 25% of the community that lives up there that doesn't have to drive down all the cow paths through town instead of going on the highway for whatever reason. They don't want to use the highway and they use the the secondary roads. And now you have a certain le number of less cars because those services and goods are being provided at a different part of town. We have a huge land mass, right? We know that it was it was when it was first set up, it wasn't designed to be that this many people just like most places, most towns. And I and I think that that if we if we work somehow some way to break it up so that there's two spots in town where there's goods and services instead of one, that's going to that's going to help get rid of some of the traffic.

Yes. Not all of it. There's still there's still only going to be one post office. That's a good point, Tony. That's a good strategy. Yeah. There's still only going to be one one post office. It's still going to only be one high school, you know, but and 27 banks, but yes, 100%. So, so, but I I don't know how cuz I live near exit 5. Conceptual rather than going to exit rather than going to exit four, I go to Manchester, right? And it's a pain and it takes me almost as long to go the four miles to the Home Depot in Manchester as it does to go to the one in London area. But like so for that area of town it's you're just going to go to Manchester as opposed to drive down to to exit four.

Well, especially because we have nothing at exit 5. Exactly. as it stands. Just a conceptual thought that you know you you read land planning books which which I do and and some of the newer land planners are talking about getting away from a central hub for goods and services and making multiples. Makes sense. Yes. Yeah. So just just a thought. Wholeheartedly agree. You know, this is like like in the in the city there's like different areas where there's always a store and stuff and people walk, you know, that type of thing.

OD is I don't really like the idea of sidewalks. Yeah, I know we've talked about them, but I mean to your point, you go to Manchester to get your goods. What happens as soon as you loop around the uh the airport and you get to where like the fire station is? Sidewalks on both sides of the road and guess what? You're in the city of Manchester. Um, I I find them to be I don't know, maybe if we lived in South Carolina or something, sidewalks would be more uh more appealing. But I don't think anybody is saying sidewalks on Adam's Road.

No, but that that is what that's what this leans into is put sidewalks everywhere. Sidewalks everywhere is going to solve the problem. And it's like, yeah, I think that's his No, it's not agree with you there. Word in all of that that I was like, it was the first word. It was the only word in all of that that I went. So I think with sidewalks, too, is it kind of goes in and I and I don't know. It it may it may not be it might just be a you drop in the bucket to maintain sidewalks and build them out, but I I I don't know. I haven't seen any um no

fiscal responsibilities, but it goes against our draft vision of ensuring fiscal responsibility through sound investments in infrastructure. I also, you know, it probably would be also good for us to kind of look at the size of our roads anyway because I know in the neighborhood that I live in, um, I mean, granted, we only we don't get many cars, but it's wide enough that you can have two people, you know, on both sides walk on the side of the street with a dog um, and then have two cars, you know, you know, pass by. So I I think that's actually a good that's favorable for us is the the length of our overall roadways. I mean the width rather.

Yeah, I think that's very important to point out is is the width of the uh the road. You know, a wider roadway is so much easier than a roadway with with sidewalks on each side of it, which actually became a very common con uh conversation through the 55 plus communities that came to town. Nobody wanted them because, you know, it's $150,000 a year to maintain sidewalks inside a cross farm. And it just adds a whole another dimension. You've got tighter roadways now. Yeah, you got all this up and down. You've got all this extra curving. Um but yet but yet when

driveway then up up and down the development by the um behind the dive shop um village. No, the Neans the Neans I thought they were doing all that work. I thought they were getting rid of their sidewalks. They put them all back when they when they were done. And yet we've had people come here from that development and say, "Well, we hate the sidewalks because of the up that whole up and down thing. It's such a short straightaway and then you're going up and down." So, and so they're walking the street. They don't even use them. But yet there's a development. God knows how much it cost them, but I can't imagine their their HOA fees were high to start with and now they re they did that work and they put the sidewalks back. Yeah.

I thought they were going to take them out. Could we take the sidewalks out of here? Yeah, you should. I'm gonna just propose that I like multi-use paths. You know, I think we've got some great um you know, the little community there off of off of Young Road that's going to have like paths that kind of go around the house. That's different, you know, gives you a little I I like multi-use paths. I just Yeah, but those are those are pretty much strictly for people within the development. Correct. All right. So, I think what one thing that we really probably should focus on is Hold on, guys. Stop talking about sidewalks. Um, well, we got to get through it,

right? No, I know. But what we're talking about is what's the problem we're trying to solve with sidewalks? We're trying to have people walk in these communities. So I think what we could, you know, and this is kind of, you know, it's um update the sentence, update that point just saying promote new residential developments that have more walkable communities. That also allows us to have flexibility for some of these communities that might be, you know, kind of private communities that might be, you know, acceptable for with sidewalks. Allows us to um kind of focus on the width of roads and and such like that,

but it also provides potential developers that are coming in and they're seeing they're they're like, "Okay, I need to develop something that has a walkable community." And that's and whatever the kind of the whatever the tasks are or whatever the kind of you um you know milestones for that would be that would fall under that strategy. Yeah. I I I I am fine with the no sidewalk thing. I'm absolutely fine with that. However, for us to say reimagine Londoner is a walkable community. Good point.

Without making any suggestion as to how to do that because right now we're saying it's not. And on the majority of the roads in town, you really don't want to be walking down that road, right? So, we're saying we want lined areas as a walkable community. And you know, and then in some of these developments that we're building, we can put some paths in there that the people who live in there, but that's not going to help 95% of the town become a walkable community. Well, Giovani brought up a good point. Another way to do that is density. And we don't mention Yeah. that anywhere in that but that's what's going through my head is is you know what he I forget how you

how you worded it unique land use or whatever you would well creative land creative land use land use I mean you know there's different ways to re to create walkability to his point and um you know that is through you you can do it through density and smaller homes and and and that does maintain you know, a small town vibe. Look at old London area, the village. It's all tiny homes on small lots that are next to each other. You know, it's density. Y um and it's walkable to, you know, to his point earlier, it's walkable because you can get four houses down in 100 ft. You know,

you know, it creates a couple of other different things, too, if you do it right. Um, if you're trying to retain conservation land, things to that nature, you could still put your I mean, it reduces municipal services for plowing and stro road maintenance. Um, you could take say the 50 lots that could go on 70 acres and put them up closer and you could put the rest in conservation. You know, it is it would make it easier for you when you put in water and sewer. Um there's just like so many if we break down the confines that we have right now of a traditional subdivision and we say what's our ultimate goal because a lot of the subdivision rules and regulations today have been created on to to promote urban sprawl and to limit development or what have you when you can take the different approach and say how you do it better. Well, it's kind of like what the the concepts that came in front of us on up on on Pillsbury for Woodmont Commons, you know, I mean,

a perfect example as opposed to as opposed to several hundred single family houses on an acre lot, same amount of houses, a lot less, and now you've got conservation land. You've got still the same amount of houses with more density and a whole lot of green space. Exactly. you know. So, what I'm hearing is that the group is suggesting remove or sidewalks, but leave the rest. I think we need to add to it on Giovani, help me out a little bit here. Um, promoting unique land use. I don't know if ideas is the right word. Land use development that promotes uh walkable communities and yeah, some hits some of these other points that we're trying to bring into it. Yeah. In new development.

What create? Did anyone get that? Create I think that's important too. Inside a new development. Inside new development new development is where you want to isant kind of you want to that's the part that I've just keep roaring back to inside new development. You want to kind of let it be known that we're not coming for your sidewalks. Yeah. You're not coming to take but if we're going to but if we're going to if we're going to develop like we want to can we can we maybe have some? Yeah. You know, and it does promote easier water, sewer, anything that we can accomplish. So, new and redevelopment because not everything's going to stay the same forever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, because Hardy Road is never going to be walkable. No. So, stop talking about ever range.

Yeah. It's not going to happen. And yeah, I do want to circle back around to some of these major routes though, like maybe Route 28 or or 102

102 or Mammoth Road and things like that where they do, you know, you have if you had your if those were your major roots and you had the the the little hubs of communities coming to them, maybe that's where you want to create um a sidewalk or what have you that then that's a safe way to get to another side of a town or to a bike path or to a rail trail or something like that. If that if that was traver traversible in a safe manner um and it's not necessarily conflicting with the other views of of hey we're going to put sidewalks everywhere and so that might be a different approach to it as well. Can I make a suggestion

from listening to Giovani?

Creative land use within new development and connections to community amenities through promotion of on-site amenities, including multi-use paths while working to establish walkable, bikable connections on existing roadways when feasible. So, I've recognized the new development and connections to what you were talking about just now is connections to community amenities. So, a community amenity could be this, the high school, could be a park, could be your beautiful sports complex, could be um a small commercial area or a large commercial commercial area. So, creating connections. The only thing I was suggesting, Sylvia, is that we could in those in the major route 28 has lost its small town charm or what have you and it's a state road, right?

But it does connect. It's a major artery. So maybe in those areas you could still put something in that's safe like a bike path or a sidewalk or something that could and it takes you to a lot of places like say rail trails and things of that nature. Right. Right. And the bullet above it actually also speaks to this because we're talking about creating connections to the London Dairy Rail Trail which and this does a major connection

and this does kind of tie into the first bullet point there where you know zoning revisions and process strategies recommended. So, you know, talking about those smaller lot sizes allowing different types of we still need to make the change. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I I I'm I'm going to have a suggestion here on on the last bullet point again. Instead of just removing sidewalks, I think I would put there walkways. So, multi-use paths or walkways. I like it

because it doesn't necessarily have to be a sidewalk for you to get to point to a from point A to point B. It could be some kind of a walkway somehow someway made of whatever it is. Um, which for a new development, the walkway could be a sidewalk. So, if you if you keep that word in there, walkway, the connections that Gavanni's talking about still exist. And let's figure it out when we get the planning when a when a project comes before us or the town or whatever. uh uh to Kelly and John, the conversations happen, right? But they're not hemmed in by a regulation that has that word sidewalk in it.

So, can I ask the group because I think that is a great solution, taking out sidewalks, putting in walkways. The only other thing then is the the underlined area. If we take that out, reimagine London as a walkable community and instead go with something more of what um Giovanni was talking about, which is creative land use to create connections. Does that make sense? Promote promote unique promote unique land use. Y yeah,

I might say to accomplish some of the overall goals or you know because it does accomplish trying to get water and sewer established in certain areas. And in some ways, you could you could you could enhance your conservation areas and things of that nature, too. I really like that. I'm I'm thinking back too on the um sidewalk removal. We're not going to take anyone's sidewalks. I really like I really like midnight midnight sidewalk removal. We'll put you on on that. Yeah, he'll be there with his flashlight on his head. You wake up in the morning, you sidewalk.

He's just out there with a self t-shirt. Small town on the back coming from the sidewalk. Midnight sidewalk removal. Only Only I'm one of those. Do we have a final bullet? I don't know, Sylvia. I would say we have a very good understanding of it. If you could shoot Jeff and I, me as the chair and him as the chair of the master plan, a few recommendations, I think we can speak on behalf of the board before the next meeting and we can all agree on. Yes. All right. Um I'm we'll include Kelly as well. All right. Well, yeah. Just

that's kind of like default, you know, just putting it out there. Verifying. Okay. So, we'll come up with some some trial runs. You guys can tweak it. All right. Are we ready for the next one? Yes, we are. Proposed housing strategies.

Promote small development by making it easier to subdivide single family lots such as small smaller road frontage requirements. allowances for back lot development such as a pork chop lot and two family conversions. Promote zoning land use regulations that allows greater housing choice to meet the needs of new and existing residents. Allow mixeduse development in commercial zones. Coordinate land use boards and committees in the review of recommended zoning revisions and process strategies recommended by the current review and assessment of the London zoning ordinance. Update soilbased lot sizing to reflect New Hampshire dees or other state agency's most updated recommendations and tie into regional andor statewide initiatives on housing. further discussion slashconirmation and that is because of there were all kinds of new state RSAs and coordination on that.

Um walk me through this whole backlot development thing that

what is it? So that's let's say you have a lot with uh let's say 150 frontage, right? And but it's 10 acres and it's a long narrow lot. You want your adult kid that's just graduated from college to be able to live in your town. They can't find anything affordable. So, you're like, "Look, you're about to get married. I'll give you that back lot." Right now, you could put an ADU on it as of just recently, but it would be a small would be a small home. This way they could

Well, that would depend on the size of the So, Jake, first home, right? So, Jake, Barley Hill Road, the road I live on. Yeah. The road the houses all have 150 feet of front edge, but 800 feet of depth, right? So if you if you're on Barley Hill Road just before you going toward Mammoth just before you start going downhill there's five or six back lot developments just like this. So you have the house on the road you have a a driveway going to a house behind them. Yeah. Those lots were subdivided in this exact manner similar to where you live Jake on Adam's Road. Yeah. Yeah. Same thing. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Could I give another example of that? Um, we're in a different town. I'm doing a little subdivision and we have it's 150 ft of road frontage that is required, but it's really it's like a 20 acre lot

and as opposed to putting in a road to service possibly eight lots, we'd like to get three on the road and except I don't have enough frontage for one of the lots. what the thought process behind having 150 ft of of so one of them is going to be a pork chop lot but I got to get a variance for that right and the whole thought process behind having 150 ft frontage is that you have enough sideyard setback from your neighbors and things to that nature to support that lot and you know livability of that lot but soon as the lot leaves the street probably 20 ft 200 20 25 ft up. It winds out to this particular lot that would need a variance for winds out to 300 ft of frontage. Well, at that point, right? So, it's still accomplishing it, but it reduces the impact on the municipality and it allows for that pork chop type lot that would allow for a more affordable lot for somebody at some point in the future.

Yeah. The idea is existing homeowners can get either a little more equity out of their lot or they can include their family in, you know, future decisions. And when we were looking at the parcels, we noticed that Lendary does have a large number of these, you know, yeah, larger size parcels, but they have a, you know, a small frontage. But if you could just access all the land behind, you would be open up a lot of potential development.

So I'd like to make a comment to TV land and people who are going to be who who are listening to this now and who are going to watch it later on. I want to be very clear that that all of this stuff that we're talking about is conceptual in nature, right? It's going to go it's going to go in the format of of of a basically a strategic plan for the town moving forward. But in order for anything any of this to hap actually happen is going to take a tremendous amount of time and effort from staff to change zoning rules, regulations and and whatnot. So, this this thing is is basically a a a panacea, a thumbnail sketch of a direction that the that the town could go or the direction that that building could go. But in order for that to happen, there's a lot of other things that have to happen. We're talking I don't even know years to to to to change policy, to change rules, to change regulations, to check with the RSAs. Um there's a lot of backwork that's going to have to happen for any of this to occur. And and I want people who are going to be watching this and and you know, newspaper headlines just to be very clear right now. This cannot happen because the rules and regulations of the town don't allow it and the zoning rules don't allow it. Can it could it happen? Absolutely. But there's a lot of other things that that are going to have to happen in the Jenga puzzle um to to make it happen. So I just to get that on the table. So

thank you. I mean, the idea here was to keep it small, and I think that's what the subcommittee, the master plan subcommittee really honed in on were possible ways to keep future growth small. And that's one way. So, I'm not sure, Sylvia, I understand the second bullet, what that really means. Could you provide a little more context around that? Which part? The greater housing choice or

promote zoning. So we have we have our zoning regulations that allow greater housing choice. I don't understand what greater housing choice is. Is it allowing a different something other than a single family house or a duplex in AR1? Is it coming up with a new zone that allows for a forplex? It's just I don't understand uh diversity in housing, different types of housing, ADUs.

It could be, I don't know, really small lots. Um it could be, you know, just more more diversity in the housing. I think it's sorry anything from an ADU to like we were talking about the the cottage court style the propriial project just um modifying or amending regulations you know when this board or others see fit to start to plan for that. Okay. I would think like tiny homes would be in that things that nature which I don't think you could do right now. Okay. Great. Thank you.

All right, keep moving here. Anything else, folks?

All right, so we're almost at the end. So, we've had feedback and discussion all along. Some questions for you. Are there any priorities, recommendations we've missed or underestimate, under emphasized? How can we improve these draft chapters to better serve Londereerry? Are there additional outreach strategies you would like to us to follow for the next three chapters? And just to a reminder, this is your plan. Um, next steps, we're going to incorporate the feedback we've heard tonight. Um, and hopefully we will finalize then these chapters and you will adopt them maybe at even at your next meeting. Not sure. Um and then just to be aware the the survey for the next tier um of the three chapters, natural resources, transportation, economic development is already out. It's on the website. Um and so we would love assistance in that outreach and the steering committee will be talking about that I think even is it next week, Kelly? Is that our meeting?

Uh Yes. Yep. The next meeting of the master plan steering committee say it's our next thing. So you said the next three chapters. H how many chapters do you envision in this document that you're producing?

Well your last master plan I think it was really different. It was a whole different effort but I think there were probably at least eight or nine. So I believe there was no suggestion on reducing the number of chapters but certainly the size they want this to be much uh more usable as a tool and um just really something that's not just going to sit on the shelf.

Mr. Chair, I could make a recommendation. I think we should probably look at and because I think we have the purview as the planning board to identify what chapters we want to include. I think that would allow that would give direction to the steering committee um that would then kind of provide direction to staff um to kind of go down there. So, I think that's a that's a great point, Tony. Good question about, you know, how many chapters. Um, there's also a minimum from a regulatory standpoint that we need to that that we have to also update, which I um I don't have the regs in front of me, Tony. I don't know if you've already done it,

right? Thank you. Um, so we've already met the minimum regulations with this and vision, but they need to have a future land use map. I believe a map. Yes, a future land use map. What that looks like you have a lot of uh flexibility in. So, a future land use map would definitely be something we would want to um absolutely include in a very soonish um steering committee plan.

Mhm. Um so that's what my I would definitely suggest that of kind of what the the chapters that we want to include. I know that you from last year we went uh you know when we kind of had this initial conversation we went on our comprehensive 20 um or you know early 2012 2013 plan um you know this being an update to that plan I think is it's so I um and for us to actually kind of move forward with it in a way that makes sense for our town.

Is there a way we can begin to implement these chapters as we're moving forward here? in a way you already are through what James will talk about soon and that's the hop grant.

So what I what I'm thinking of Sylvia is, you know, when do we start putting together an implementation plan? I'm I'm afraid that if we wait until the end, we're going to forget everything that we've done to date. And I I don't see why we can't start putting together something as we finalize these draft chapters either on a chap I don't on a chapter by chapter basis on a project by project basis. I don't know the answer to that. But we need to start putting together a timeline for finishing this and putting together an implementation plan. To me, I feel as though it's more important to do that than to start on natural resources, transportation, and economic development. Do you agree? Yeah, I agree.

Yeah. I apologize for standing up. I'm having back spasms. It's all right. I didn't even notice. Wow. You know, it's funny. I I've never heard that before. I'm 72. I've never heard that before. So, thank you for bringing it up. So, I think that's a good point, right? What's our implementation plan? How is it documented? Because we're going to be presenting this to the public in a public hearing. They're going to be like, "Great. Now, what? what's next. And so I I I think as a board we would give the the steering committee would value that kind of direction on where you want us to go.

And I think that was some of the feedback from the last master plan is is great. We've got all these nice words, but a lot of things never came to fruition, never happened that that were talked about and described in the plan for various good reasons to or bad reasons, good reasons. But I just think uh you know I'm built around let's start doing things you know putting together this plan is one of the things we needed to do but now what do we do with it and and what's the timeline around you know the actions coming out of this

just to remind the group that initially last year at this time you divi you decided oh my goodness you decided on three tiers. The first tier was the demographics, land use, housing, regional view. This tier, the second tier, natural resource, transportation, economic development, and then a third tier, I can't remember the chapters. I'm going to guess recreation is one of them. And historic historic district, energy, maybe

maybe energy. So that's when that's how this whole tier design was developed was I think it was from this group last year if not this group the master plan sub so I'd say we're completing tier one how do we implement tier one is what I'm hearing now we need we need to focus on the implementation of this first tier if I'm hearing the board correctly implementation of this first tier is more important than the second tier and we al part of that too is balancing staff.

I I don't see why we're heading into the survey. We're already into the survey, I guess, technically for the next tier. So, I don't see why we can't start discussing what implementation, action items, whatever term you want to use, looks like for the chapters that hopefully after this conversation are essentially complete with the exception of public what we need to look at. Yeah. Yeah. because there's like a six week time period where the survey is just out there and we're promoting it. In the meanwhile, we can talk about this implementation. How does that sound?

We Yes, conceptually it sounds great. We have these conversations all the time that we can do this, we can do that, but we never do this and do that. So, honestly, great. give me a get the get the master plan steering committee a schedule that we follow with directions to kind of that we need to kind of review. I want to also you know I really need the board input on this as well because my recollection is that we never actually had a vote on those three tiers. The master plan steering committee is is you know is a subcommittee of this board. You guys provide the guidance for this

and we need I you know it's very apparent to me now and I apologize for the last you know year I haven't been more vocal on this. I think we need more collaboration. I think part of that too is that we're going to um we just I want to I want we need a plan. We need a schedule. We need we can't go months and months and then we cannot do another year of this

of of we can't have these three tiers go a year. you know, you having them go a year and then we're talking about an implementation plan which is incredibly important. Who's doing that? What staff resources are you going to do that? And Kelly, I definitely appreciate you and your staff's time, but I also want to be sensitive to that. Okay. So, I mean, if if if if staff is definitely saying we can do it, let's work work work together. We'll get a schedule down. we we've learned a lot in the last year, you know, and such like that.

So, I think it's important to acknowledge though what Sylvia has mentioned at least once already, and that this first tier, if you will, with these chapters is the heaviest lift. We're talking about a lot of data,

a lot of good data. That's very important. And the committee spent a lot of time, meetings upon meetings, hours and hours, some of which I was there for, some of not, but talking a lot about data and the survey results, which is was in my view that was really important that that time was spent on that. Um, and I think that the chapters reflect that very well. Um, so, you know, I like to think that this next tier is it's data driven. And I'm not going to say it's not data driven, but it's it's a different tier. It's a different set of data that we're looking at. It's it's easier.

It's easier. It's less uh controversial, I think, is one of the words Sylvia used. Um or it can be. So, I think that's something else to keep in mind. It's more realistic uh given that information for me at least to think about staff time and resources and how long this may or may not take and then come up with a time frame in coordination with the RPC and this board and the committee.

Okay. Um so how do we want to move as a board on a prioritization here? I would imagine that a lot of this tier two is going to be significantly impacted by what we come up with in tier one, right?

One's here. I have a question. Yeah. As far as implementing, so we implement some of these changes. I know that it involves changing codes, not codes, but um you know, rules and regulations for the town, but if we get a So, one of the things we know is a small town feel. So, as far as I understand, this board, let's say Home Depot wanted to build at the Common and the Common was for sale. Okay, let's just throw it out there. That meets all the guidelines and the sewer and everything, everything's fine, but doesn't have that small town feel. Can we reject something because it doesn't give us that small town feel? No, we can't.

No. So, what we're talking about is when you talk about implementation, you're you're talking about an actionable correct item. So, it's not like small small town feel. That's not an act action. No, an action an action would be creating XYZ, you know, zoning amendment to reflect preservation of the town on it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. Um Jeff, I mean, I guess what do you want from the board? Um what's the biggest thing you want from the You're asking for collaboration and direction from the board. What exactly is it you want so we can give it to you?

Yeah. So I want the board to kind of tell us, you know, tell the planning, you know, are we good with this? Are we good to kind of work in parallel with the implementation plan for the first tier while also um collecting the the data and the research for you the second tier? Um when do we you know who do we want involved with the implement you know drafting the implementation is that the steering committee or is that some or is that an implementation committee is that different is that so I think it's those types of

clarity that we want to definitely Kelly go so I believe the way it was done in 2013 is the committee um the master plan steering committee whatever it was called uh came up with the implementation. It's essentially an appendix to the plan and then a committee was formed after the fact to implement said action items, whatever you want to call them. I hate committees. Um I don't see that that way going right. No. Can we leave it at a planning board level? Can we create the implementation at the planning board level? I think that's the wisest thing.

I just I mean who's going to be on the committee? the master plan steering committee. Yeah, I kind of we need a tour here. That's that's kind of what happened with the 13 master plan and I I think that's becomes part of the problem is you just end up having so many irons in the fire that you know paralysis by analysis, right? Y I think it makes sense to have it here as well because most likely you're this board is going to be actually taking the actions if you will to make these changes. But I don't know. I mean the other option is you have a smaller scale another committee but like a a subcommittee or whatnot that's

to clarify I guess Jeff to help you this is getting close to ready for prime time which is a public hearing after a public hearing and these these first three chapters are accepted it would really be in the hands of of this board to then create the implementation for it. So while this board is actively creating implementation for the F first three chapters, the master plan steering committee can still focus on their charge of getting these next three chapters done. Natural resources, transportation, and economic development. Yeah.

Um I I think that would be the best way to do it. I it just I personally I think you start getting committees to subcommittees to subcommittees to the other committee. it starts getting crazy, get out of and then it's going to come here anyway. Yeah. No, exactly. And and and we'll have the same deliberations. Um and that makes perfect sense because it also allows the steering committee to focus on one thing and not two things in parallel.

Correct. Exactly. Exactly. So, so we'll let the planning board focus on the implementation of it and what that looks like while at the master plan level we're working at at our next next group of chapters here. I think is is the best way to to address that. What would you like that to look like? Are you looking for a work session to discuss the implementation items for the first three chapters and then staff will take that feedback, generate actual items. Correct. Bring it back. Go through that series of Correct. Okay. I I think that's probably the the best way to do it.

All right. Anything else? Um and the board is still okay with the steering committee moving forward with the second tier. Yep. Yes. Yep. And the third tier, um Sylvia doesn't even remember what it is, so it can't be that big. It's recreation, energy, and historic cultural. Thank you for that bravo. And and the land use um in the land use map is also a regulatory requirement. Yes, but that would probably be in the tier one.

I was going to say it should be with this. No, this is land use. Typically though, future land use comes after you do the rest of the chapters because it takes into consideration everything. All right, cool. Kelly, what's this look like for a um next steps, public hearing, so on and so forth? Uh, so I, as far as I can tell, we've received and pretty much already incorporated your feedback. Yep. As long as you don't need to see it again. Nope. Uh, and that's with, you know, the one line that we said just send it to Jeff and I and we'll we'll make a decision on behalf of the board. And

Sure. Yeah. So, in terms of the um public hearing, I don't recall discussing a specific date, but um meeting at the steering committee or you and I offline. Um but I I can schedule it. I can't remember if you and I might have talked about that. I can go back and look. Yeah. Did we discuss maybe the possibility of a a special meeting for it? Is that something you and I discussed? We talked about um amendments at a special meeting, but amendments at a special meeting. See, it's all coming. Everything's blank.

We can talk I mean we can put it on a regular meeting. Um I guess I'm putting the question back to you. Is that what you want or you want a special meeting? You guys want to keep it on one meeting or make it its own meeting? I know you guys love being here too. It all depends upon the interest of the uh public. Well, that's I I'm trying to for all of our sakes I'm trying to consider that and that's why I'm asking about is it worth leaning towards a special meeting honestly just because our agendas are so heavy. That's what I mean. I was I was about to say if we do one of these

last week was like a hasn't happened in five years and it's not going to happen for five more. So I you know personally I'd rather see this be one agenda item. So hopefully by 9:20 we're finishing the night. Um cuz if I I feel as though if this is on something that has three site plans, we're just none of us are going to care by the time it gets here. Well, I'll look at some dates that this room is available and um we can pull the board on availability. Maybe we'll do a 6 p.m. start time. Yep, that's fine. I'm fine with that. Um if we could maybe aim for that, you know, third week in September, something like that. Third or fourth week in September. Okay,

wonderful. All right, Hop Grant, you're up. Thank you, Silia. Thank you. Thank you, Silia. You guys for Hop. Okay. Yeah. Me, too. Should have stood up sooner. Thank Thanks, Zach. Thank you, Zach. Thank you. Thank you.

Hello everyone. My name is James Veo. I am principal planner of Southern New Hampshire Planning Commission and I'm here to talk to you about your HOP grant. So, you may or may not know that Investn NH uh put together a a grant solicitation. It was about $3 million and London Derry was a happy recipient of it. And um are you able to advance or No,

I can't go backwards. That's the only thing. So, if you want to and uh was awarded uh a contract to uh to do work that that contract is administered by uh New Hampshire Housing and uh yours truly Southern New Hampshire Planning Commission is uh was the consultant selected by London London to implement uh the contract. So, um, how big is the HP grant? Uh, in in totality for for I think it's $100,000. No, we have 50, right? $50,000.

My apologies. And uh so so the housing opportunity grant uh is really intended to help towns refine their local regulations or create new regulations that will increase housing supply. So um so the scope in in uh Londereerry reflects that. There's a couple different tasks. There's this uh task to look at the zoning ordinance as it exists today. uh look at the subdivision regulations, site plan regulations, and other supplementary uh standards and see how they affect the the housing market in town. Uh then we uh there's also another task in the contract for comparing uh zoning regulations to uh best practices, the local master plan which you guys are updating right now and uh probably quite importantly uh recent changes to the state law which affect a lot of every community in the state. uh third task here is to look at um to identify and select housing strategies that align with local priorities. So I you know today sitting here listening to the conversation about housing strategies was enlightening in a lot of ways and uh at the end of this mini presentation here which will be very quick uh I'll have an ask for you around this strategy uh this selecting housing strategies and then finally when uh all these elements have been put together we would go bury our books uh bury our noses in the books and go conduct the actual audit and review the zoning. [Music]

We have been doing work so far. Uh the first thing we did was sit down with town staff and have a conversation about their observations relative to housing barriers. We then followed that up with um a conversation uh with a series of interviews of developers that are operating in the town. And so we put together a couple mini reports on that identifying themes and observations. We also took uh a look at uh external forces acting on housing and Zach uh has done uh an excellent job identifying and conveying those things to you. So there's not much here that would be news to you on this bullet list. Basically there's an aging demographic. There are in migration patterns and high demand for housing in Londereerry. people are um especially people who don't already have a single family home are suffering with housing cost burdens. Uh economic conditions really uh favor Londereerry uh as a housing destination. Societal values really in a lot of ways define what housing looks like in our in our communities whether it's here or somewhere else in the state. and uh housing production, at least this was something that was emphasized a lot by New Hampshire housing over the last couple years, uh appears to be mismatched with uh household sizes. So, uh a simple way to think of that would be there's lots of one and two uh person households that are in, you know, three and four bedroomedroom houses. Excuse

me. So, that's really chalks up the progress today. Very quick and easy update for you guys. But now comes the hard part. I see you guys are very busy with the master plan. But I'm here to ask you guys to take on yet another task which is to establish some kind of working committee so that um there can be a champion for the outcome of the housing audit. Uh without some kind of committee put together uh I think it would be a lot less likely that any material change would happen in the community uh because you guys wouldn't have a vested interest in it. and and that's a personal opinion, but um it's one that I think is true. And so by putting together a steering committee, we can look at these barriers to housing and discuss them. We can look at housing strategies and identify the kind of housing that feels appropriate for Londereerry. That shouldn't be a me choice. That should be a you choice. And then once I know those things, I informs how I can audit your uh your land use regulations and your housing policy. uh and then at the end of that we really need to determine a strategy for how to implement those regulatory revisions. That is, you know, is the planning board going to make recommendations for the town to vote on? Uh who's going to carry that forward? It won't be me. So, um with all that said, I don't know if uh how it would function, but I'm looking for a group that would be willing to meet with me one periodically. Kelly, can it just be a working session for the planning board?

Yeah, I I think it can. And you can see why I've I've said it a few times through the master plan process. This kind of mirrors doing a master plan, obviously. Um, so I mean, you don't have to have a a steering committee formally, at least not in my view. You could I guess it's your choice. I I would say leave it with the board

100%. Everybody good with that? May I also suggest um one of the things that uh James also did was he and I think you mentioned it he met with several developers and that feedback is is very interesting. Um I I think that has been provided to staff. Correct. James, who'd you meet with? I um in the report intentionally did not uh identify the developers so that they would be candid with their input. And so uh you guys know the developers are all developers that are currently or recently active in your town

and if you read through their report you guys have intimate knowledge you probably know who they are but uh staff providations. Perfect. That was what I was getting at. It'd be great for to review that in a work session, though. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, just if you could let the cat out of the bag,

what what are some possible things that could come out of your investigation that could cause buildings slashdevelopment to change in London? Well, that that's highly dependent on what kind of housing you want to see. Uh I don't think you can say yet.

The the thing I heard uh because I did attend was it a a master plan? I attended one of the master plan meetings and uh the thing I heard out loud was a lot of resentment towards largecale residential development and that it doesn't look like the London area I want to see. And so if if that is in fact the the sort of air of public opinion on uh housing then as a strategy we should identify things that allow you to grow that don't have to look like that.

How would you do but so what based on your training and experience what what are some let's use that scenario. What are some possible methods and methodologies that that a town any town could use to accomplish that? Because and and I say that because, you know, everybody throws around affordable housing, right? And and no one knows that there's no definition for that in New Hampshire. There's no RSA. There's no there's no anything that that defines what affordable housing is, right? Because we have a supply and demand. We have supply and demand housing in New Hampshire. So, but but based on your training and and and experience, what what possible things just in general could a town do to to to change uh to not to not have largecale developments.

Yeah. Yeah. There there's actually a really good assortment of resources available for this. uh some from planning assoc uh the the national planning uh association called the APA uh American planners association has some really good guidance on this. Uh some independent uh nonprofit housing uh institutions like uh localhousingssolutions.org has really good resources for this. And some of them are physical recommendations like how to shape or frame your policy so that you get smaller lots or lots that don't cost as much to build. Uh others are have to do with the physical shape of the building. Uh yet others have to do with the financing structure or the policy that would that would in uh that would influence the financing structure. So uh there's lots of different ways to tackle it. Uh, you know, what I would like to do with a working group is look at some of these policy documents together, actually send them to you in advance, have you guys read through them, come with a formulated opinion of what you see in there, whether you like it or not, and then share your opinion amongst a small group about why this policy or that policy makes sense or or I don't want to see this. You know what what I'm not going to do is give you my opinion of what's right for London.

Well, I didn't and I didn't ask you that. That's why I said for any town, but not not Londereerry. But if somebody in in Londereary buys a 50 acre parcel of land, we don't have um lot size requirements anymore, do we? It's depend depending on his and and and Wells, right? Yes. Yes. So, so if it's So, if it's and if it's and if it's um municipal water and sewer, then it is then it is what it is. Um other than setbacks, they're smaller.

Yeah. Other than other than setbacks. So, so when someone buys a piece of land, they're going to they're going to try and get the most amount of money that they can from it. Um, they're not going to build a cottage because because builders work on a percentage. Um, each home that they build, they're going to let's make up a number. They're going to make uh 10% on the house. So, do they are they going to build a house that's $7 million to get 10% from that piece of land or are they going to build a $100,000 house and get 10% of that land? Then the question is what what's the number? what what's the financial number that houses are selling for? And that's that's how the developer figures out what they're going to do or what they're not going to do. Right by the South Fire Station right now um in town on whatever the road is,

thank you. $950,000 for 1,700 square feet new construction on a major state road

102 that you hear the I was in there today and I turned off my car and I and I and I sat on a piece of granite and I just listened. It was really loud and they're selling. So, what does a what does a town do? What does a what does a land planning uh uh board do to to mitigate that to to help the citizenry have uh houses um that a different demographic can buy? I'm not going to say affordable housing because clearly 950 is is affordable because they're selling There's there's two houses people were moving in. I don't even know how that I don't even know how they were moving in. That's a whole other other thing. I didn't say that. Um but but so it's a so 950 is affordable for 1,700 square foot because they're selling. So what does a town do? Any town, USA, New Hampshire?

Yeah. I I mean well London area is in uh kind of a unique position in that it has a high highly desirable location and uh to some extent you know the demand and the price of your homes are going to be set by that location. Now you can implement policies around uh capital A affordable housing which you know require certain units be affordable to a residence at 80% of the area median income. Um but the developer but the developer but gets paid by someone else to make up the difference to build that affordable density bonuses.

Yeah. Well, or or bonuses potential. And I would say, you know, uppercase, you know, capital A affordable housing uh in scale. If you if you look at any any town in scale never solves the housing problem because it always requires some form of a subsidy, whether it's monetary or a policy subsidy, uh that's pushed onto the developer. Are you talking about workforce housing? You're talking about a a different kind of when you say capital Affordable housing.

Well, then there's naturally occurring affordable housing. Uh, which may not feel like it, but you know, if you build enough of it, you can you can catch it. No, I'm saying so per state statute, I'm thinking of the the workforce housing regulations. When you say the 80%, are you are you meaning workforce housing instead of affordable housing? Yeah, sorry, my apologies. I just want to be clear where affordable is 30% of the housing cost. Yep. You Yeah, it's that 30% rule. I just want to make a distinction because there's no definition in state statute, which is part of the problem of us when we talk about affordable housing. People are like, well, what's affordable? Um,

yeah, it depends on the household. Yeah, that's that's a good distinction. I'm glad you made that. I'm sorry. My apologies. No, no problem. Yeah. So, I guess I guess you know, we can go around in circles. Um, I'm I'm just trying to figure out where we're going to go with with what it is you're going to do. I'm trying to get a preview of what could possibly be the result.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, really it's feed feed the group resources and talk about those resources and identify what resonates with, uh, the members. You know, one one thing I would suggest is uh whatever the working group is uh it would be valuable to have insight from uh people maybe in different perspectives like perhaps someone from the zoning board uh or even perhaps someone who doesn't own a home in the town but maybe live their whole lives and want to own a home in town so that they can share their viewpoints on things. uh and that would just ensure that whatever policy is derived at least you've heard uh you know some of the challenges or viewpoints that might not be reflected uh by the makeup of the board. So

you know one thing that this board's already talked about is implementation of land use and housing chapters that we just discussed. This could just trigger that implementation plan, which makes me, you've already gotten some recommendations from the master plan subcommittee

to focus on what we just talked about, the pork chop lots and and smaller lots and uh small small home allowances. So, I mean, it was all that's what we heard that feedback was all keeping it small. And so that could be an area where James could find those examples um whether that's in New Hampshire or in New England and provide that to the board. So I'll you know just throw it out there. So whatever group is going to be formed I'm willing to be on that group. I would like to be on that group. Um but if you have other plans that's fine too.

I thought I thought we keep it right here. I want to keep it right here. That's fine. I want to keep it right here because I think it plays into everything we're doing right now. Do you still want to be on the group? What's that? Do you still want to be on the group? If it's the planning board. Yeah, if it's okay. I'd love to have you. All right. Thank you. Appreciate that, Mr. Chair. I think as Sylvia said, it kind of dubtales in what we want to do for implementation. So, yeah, that's where we can work together. I think this helps us this could help us narrow what we need to do in order to implement a successful strategy for what we're trying to achieve through our master plan. Yeah. So, you're looking at your committee, the the whole planning board. You heard it.

Yep. You got it. Mhm. Nothing better than that. Now, can we give James some direction? Shall he take a look at those recommendations from the master plan that we just talked about? We would certainly take that into account. I the first place I want to start well of course we have the work we've done with the interviews discussion with staff but really in order to start the audit process I really need to understand where they want to land on where this board wants to land

on on on housing on housing strategies you know what looks appropriate and what doesn't and uh because that will really inform what to look for in in this the the land use regulations So, I think a I feel like a lot plays into that. I think you touched on it earlier um on what you had heard at either a master plan meeting or or what have you. I don't think density is the issue. People are mixing up density in the way something looks. I think that if there's a 100 units in a condo building, people have a problem with it. But if there's a 100 houses on a quarter acre lot, nobody has a problem with it. Um so, how do you get there? To his point, what is affordability? I think we need to look at that differently.

I've said it many times now. I think affordability needs to be looked at as is there a way to it's not a number. It in my eyes is is there a way to create a zone where we can build houses in London that are going for what less than what the market rate is for a new house. We've created affordability in my eyes. Again, it's not a number, but you're saying houses are going for $950,000. If we can find a way to make a unique zone or or what have you that makes it that these houses are less than $950,000, we created affordability.

So, what you're saying is we need to create a zone that allowed a developer to build a home cheaper, correct, than anywhere else in town. Correct. In this one one spot. And that's and it's got to be cheaper because this rule will be relaxed and that rule will be relaxed and we're going to change that and we're going to do this and that. It's through density and you know are there ways to look at it where that makes sense.

I'm I'm really kind of talking from the hip right now. But are is there ways to it cost an arm and a leg for infrastructure? So is there a way to do it without bringing sewer and water in in allowing a denser development? you know, that'll save you a million bucks in a subdivision real quick. Um, you know, is it a more relaxed roadway standard? I I have no idea, but that community wells I think exactly that I think is what needs to be looked at is how how do these houses begin to share a little bit more of the burden of building than doing things like would they have to meet a median income with us? Like would they shouldn't be in

would it have to be like based off what? No. No. So, just, you know, devil's advocate here. My wife and I arguably don't, but let's say we do $750,000. I can go buy an affordable house. Yeah. Well, so this is what I'm getting at. We have to people I think that we need to look at affordability different today. A new construction house in Londereerry is going for $950,000.

Yeah. But what's the square footage of the home? That's the one thing that you can keep. But this is what I'm saying is can we find a way in today's market, not tomorrow's market because it'll be different, but could we theoretically find a way in today's market to to increase density by limiting the size in the bedrooms and the houses? So you're not going to get you're not going to give them density and then they're going to put a million-dollar house up with five bedrooms in it. Okay, now they put up a two-bedroom house and it's only 1,000 or,100 square feet. It's not going to sell for 950 grand. We've created affordability. I don't know what that number is, but it's less than a 9. So, our our idea of affordability is exactly that. Affordability in the price of the home, not in the person who purchases it. Yes. Okay.

Yeah. That's what I wanted to hear. That's that's what I was getting at. Yeah. Beautiful. So, I if I could, you know, I think that's actually direction for James is that you're saying um are there mechanisms out there? Yeah. that allow for a cheaper price products. Correct. And you know the next I guess Pat piece of that is I don't know that there's anything that restricts it from being a more affordable price product forever because the next time that those people go to sell it.

Yeah. But there are probably absolutely it's probably on the first step where you're saying, "Hey, Mr. and Mrs. developer, we're going to give you a some sort of bonus, whatever it is, a density bonus, uh, whatever bonus, a reduction in lot, whatever, whatever the bonus is that allows you to deliver a product at 10% under market. And you can only get this additional bonus, this other bogey, if you do this. And then that gets written into say their approval process.

I want to be careful about using the word bonus though because if we use the word bonus, some are going to hear that then use something else. But you got to you got to find a way Yes. Yeah. to allow for that first transaction to be below market by by beating the natural economic Yes. process. And I think what what Jake outlined is there there's definitely ways to do that where you can have smaller square footage or other capacity. Yeah. capacity. Have a It's funny because I thought 1,700 ft² was small. Think about it. 1,700 $950,000. 1700. I mean, for a lot of the houses that are built now, that is Yeah. You know, I mean, you you look at a lot of the developments in town, they're 3,000 square ft, right?

So, I think you kind of got some direction there that there's got to be a way to do it. You look at the size of houses that were built 50, 60 years ago and uh I mean those those sold and look at the size of them to what they're building now for size. I mean even if you look at space needed right right exactly even when you look at the Go ahead. What's your view on affordability? Is it the cost of the home or the person coming into it?

Uh well it it really depends on how you're asking it. Right. There's there's income restrictions which are different than affordability which Sean clarified. Um, you know, affordability is that that measure of 30% of a person's income is, I think, a pretty good bell weather. Uh, you know, I think back to when I bought my first house and I was probably a little over that and that made me pretty uneasy. Um, but, you know, I've come a long way over the years and things are a lot easier now. But for a lot of people, they're spending over well over a number. We we know from the data that a lot of people are spending more than 50% of their income on housing in London, you know.

So let let me in and in terms of this here, right? So part of and and part of uh this is making sure that like our housing strategy and zoning and everything kind of aligns with what the state has. Correct.

That will be a part of the audit. Yes. and and let's say that and you've got here identify local barriers and stuff like that. So let's say that the town, you know, you you talk to people in town, you talk and the town says, "Well, we don't want this stuff that is going to help alleviate and I'm I'm not saying just lender, but you probably experienced this and pretty much no town goes, yeah, we want massive, you know, no small town goes, we want massive housing developments, right?" So, how do you balance that with the state needs x amount of housing mix and the towns are like, "No, we we don't want to build that." Well, you'll be glad to hear that.

Well, we do this. This is a part of a housing needs assessment. It's a regional exercise. We do it every couple years. And uh it's what you're referring to is called fair share distribution. And um which there's another just well let let me finish cuz you'll like the answer to this which is that lenary meets its fair share distribution of housing meaning it bu it builds enough housing to carry its weight in the region just not the affordable aspect of that is it has enough diversity it has enough housing according to the fair share but not enough affordable and you're back at that well we must the houses are selling so they are affordable. Yeah. Yeah. Affordable.

Well, affordable. That's the problem. I mean, does the audit also um no matter what you say that's it all comes down to Well, I mean a somebody from Mass who moves up. Yeah. Go ahead. Um hold on guys. Does the housing audit does that also kind of look at future demographic trends like you like so say if you're a house you have five bedrooms. We know that um birth rates have been declining. I mean, they've been declining for over 20 years. You're seeing that all over. I mean, I think there was what families were only having a6 child. So, someone's losing an arm or something. Um, that's what happened to me.

Was 6. Um, but that might be kind of a good like data point to kind of say, are the houses too big? Well, right. Right. From a

definitely too big. uh if you if you think about it on basic needs now, you know, we're all entitled to live in the house we want to live in uh in a capitalist society and uh so if you do well and you want to live in a huge house, there's that's your prerogative. I would say that there are good strategies to backfill for somebody that might be struggling to cover their housing costs. Um you know, this is not a physical change, but there's things like co-housing or house sharing. people can choose to live with other people and in some communities um there are services that help connect homeowners with renters. So that could be something through policy that the town could support if they want.

I don't know that anybody in the town's looking for co-sharing. So we just cross that off, right? Yeah. And I was just more or less thinking, you know, you obviously what's there the inventory that's there now is what's going to be there, but like for future if you're Yeah. I'm just looking Another way of is, you know, as as people if demographic if families are smaller, are they going to want to be a four, five bedroomedroom home? There will come there will come a time in the future when a large house will not be the desirable housing type in the market.

And I kind of from a planning standpoint, that's the data point that I'm that I would be focused. What's the future? Like what's the long-term plan there? like where's where is that where's that intersection? So that's where you know kind of as we kind of move go forward through this process that's where I would probably be most interested in looking at. I I don't I you know I can look for resources from that but I don't I can't look into a crystal ball and know with any kind of definitive answer what that will be other than well no one can but you can look at you know kind of research and trends and yeah you could look look at when the the bulk of population that's aging

and have the strategic for off um you know that will be the time when housing becomes slack I I will offer for the fact that that it's already a fact that the current housing is being used differently than people of my generation use the home.

Yes. And not only that, but I have personally seen that people are looking for a larger home because mom works from home and one of the bedrooms is her office and dad works from home and one of the the other bedrooms is his office and they have a child. So now they have they need a five- bedroomedroom home. But the word bedroom is not how the houses are being used nowadays. Right.

Well, and and not just that, but it becomes this vicious cycle. It's you you you can't afford a house or an apartment, so you live with your parents, which means that the parents are no longer downsizing because they've got kids in their 20s that live at home because they can't afford to go somewhere else. Just like just like Winter in the Winter's been doing that for 100 years. House rich money poor, right? Well, I upsized so I could take care of my parents. I probably one of the last generations that'll do it. But I upsized so I could take on the bird the you know instead of putting my if I can benefit from having my parents with me as we grow older. Sure. I have the room for them. So I bought a bigger house for that reason. That kids I just love wasting money. But

that was the main uh you know I just I plan on in the next 10 years I'd probably have between two and four parents that live in my house from my and my wife's side of the family. I already have one. I just want to bring one other thing up too and Jeeoff I heard you. We think we're getting too much in the weeds and I agree with that. But um the product has changed too. So, you know, back in the late 80s, early 90s, we were the builders were building small unfinished up capes with four micica countertops and linen

and basic carpet and basic appliances. And now everybody wants Yeah. this and that and the other thing. So, the consumers changed too. So, we can put it all on us and say or the market or whatever, but the consumer is demanding more and it just that turns that supply and demand. Well, it turns that price in from a $500,000 home to a $950,000 home. Exactly. Yeah, but the other thing is if we build if we say let's say we were do this when not we're going to but if they built houses that had the fla countertops and the shad carpet and everything all you're going to do is get someone that buys it for cheap

puts in stainless steel appliances and and granite countertops and then sells it for double we're never going to control what happens on the secondary I think some of the things are kind of beyond our I think a good thing to look at that I've said it probably a million times now you're all probably tired of hearing ing it. I I would recommend looking at something like what's going on in Pillsbury right now with these smaller homes and I am confident that if we could find a way to make that work, we could create a more affordable house in the town of confidently. Cottage houses. Yep.

Yep. And the the other other aspect, I think a while back there's an article of the Wall Street Journal on houses that are pre-manufactured. They're much cheaper than, you know, the stick construction that goes on. So you buy a house, it's already manufactured. It's probably shipped in two or three pieces, right? It's put together on a certain foundation size and it only comes one one way. I mean, of course, you can add what you want to it, but that would be at your expense. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe some of the housing costs probably even cut it in half. Do you feel like you have some marching orders?

I uh Yeah, absolutely. I think the big question I can work it out with Kelly is uh when can I give you guys homework and then I'll see we'll see you real soon. So I think we just gave you homework, didn't we? We just give you homework. It won't take me long to get back to you guys, but you'll have some reading materials pretty soon. All right. Thank you so much for your time, Silia. Thank you. Thank you very much presentation. Thank you. Is that on a silly way or All right. Anything else, folks? Mr. Chair, I'd like to make a motion to adjourn.

Before you do that, Before you do that, Mr. Chair, I'd like to go on record saying that we had several um uh opportunities for the public to uh speak in public format, and there was nobody here to do that. Uh but the opportunity did arise on several occasions, and I would like that to be in the record. Thank you. Fantastic. Mr. Vice Chair, you are on a motion, sir. Mr. Chair, I'd like to make a motion to adjourn. Motion. Second. Second. All in favor, please say I. I. Good night, folks.