Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

I'd like to call to order the Concord Township Zoning Commission meeting for Tuesday, January 6th, 2026. Uh can we have stand and call the pledge of allegiance? I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Okay. Roll call if you would please. Heather Mr. Schindler present. Mr. Ephes here. Mr. Wartell here. Mr. Teryako here. Mr. reference here. Everybody's here. Uh, next on the uh agenda is election of a chairperson. I'd like to open the nominations now. Mr. Chairman, I so move that we elect this chairperson, Rich Feliz. I second that motion. All those in favor? I

abstain. [laughter] one. [clears throat] Okay. Uh congratulations. Thank you. [laughter] Okay. Pass the G. Well, you can close the meeting. Thank you. Uh next election of vice chairman, vice chair person. Mr. Chairman, I so move that we select as vice chair John Whitley. Over time, Mortell. That's okay. Yeah, right. I'll second it. I'll second that motion. Okay. All those in favor? I oppose. Abstain.

Abstain. That was my next question. Abstain. Okay. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Congratulations, John. Thank you. You too, sir. Thank you. Okay. Next on the agenda, approval of minutes for December 2nd. Oh, this is the first of

It's 2026 already. I'm sorry. Did I have or do I have any uh comments or corrections for the meeting minutes of December 2nd, 2025? Nothing for me, Mr. Chair. Nothing from you. Nothing from me either. Nothing for me, Mr. I had nothing. So, can I have a motion, please? I'll make a motion to approve the minutes of December the 2nd, 2025. Second. Second. There you go. Okay. All those in favor? I.

Any oppose? No abstain. Minutes are approved. Okay. Correspondence. Frank, did you have any? Mr. Chairman, I do not have any. John, I do not have any. Okay. It was slow in December. It was slow. Ron, nothing, sir. Okay. The holidays were silent. [laughter] I had none. Yeah. Okay. None from here. [clears throat] Did you get any while you're on the uh on the bubble for your report? Did you get any correspondence in December? Oh, lots of correspondence, but nothing really to share with the the board formally.

Okay. Um and I actually really don't have a formal uh zoning um inspector update this evening. I did just want to welcome Amy Nettles, the new stenographer that we're going to be uh using moving forward this year. Um we appreciate it and looking forward to working with you. Welcome. Um but uh probably next month I'll have like a a year end kind of report on some of the zoning stuff activities and things like that that I can share. Was it a slow month? December permitting wise generally it's slower. Yes, it was slower. Um,

but still like some some middles. So, some things coming up um you know for February the um we've been looking at. So, you'll have you will have um a site plan review application most likely on the February agenda. Good. Okay. For a small project. So, awesome. Okay. Next on the agenda is public participation. Seeing none. Looks [clears throat] pretty busy out there.

Do we have anything on the telephone? Nothing. Okay, [clears throat] we'll cross that. Excuse me. Uh, new business. Anybody have any new business for the new year? Mr. May. None. Okay, moving right along on the agenda here, folks. Here we go.

Here we go. Here we go. [laughter] Old business is to sign section 30 of the zoning uh regulations. [clears throat] And if you look at what Heather did, she gave us a draft of the everything incorporated so far and she also gave us a uh a red line so we can see what we took out and what goes in and everything like that. [clears throat]

So I think uh if we go through this we ended at 20 or 30 yeah we finished 30.7

correct I'll start off with 30.8 And this is the light pole banner. Now, you can look at I'm going to look at both of them. You can look at whichever one you want, but we're looking at light pole banners or banner. Yeah, you can look at the red line or you can look at the all black. Whichever one whichever one you choose. [clears throat]

So, I have some comments on 30.08. Uh, item C. Can you explain that one to me? It doesn't make much sense to me. Light pole banners shall be the same size and dimensions at on the lot.

Explain. Um, so say the hospital wanted to do light pull banners throughout the parking lot. What this is saying is that each banner must be the same size dimensionally. So 2 by4. You can't have big ones and small ones and big ones. Okay. Right. Okay. For consistency throughout. And we can [snorts] only have two banners on one pole. That means we're going to have something potentially 48 in wide and 48 in high.

24 in wide. I thought I said if you have two on both sides. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. If you have two. Yep. Yep. And know these are the these are the banners like the uh servicemen. Yeah. They're similar to like those hometown hero banners that you're familiar with seeing like those are generally in the rightway like on or on light poles. Yeah. Like in p along the roadways. This would be more like throughout like the parking lot or throughout a campus. The the idea of this is not on the roadways. Okay. Yeah, I think Auburn Career Center actually has some throughout their Who does?

Auburn Career Center may already have some throughout their parking lot. Okay. I guess I really don't pay attention to the parking lot. No, probably not unless you're in there. Okay. But I I I can understand side by side. Okay. Any other questions or comments on 30.08? None from me.

Hearing none, let's move on to 30.09 temporary signs. [clears throat] [snorts] Let me go to On item B, all temporary freestanding sign shall be located a minimum of 5 ft from the right of way or a distance that is equal to half the height of the sign, whichever is greater, and in [clears throat] compliance with the requirements of v visibility. Okay. uh shall be located a minimum of 5 ft from the right of way or a distance that is equal to half the height of the sign. [clears throat] Okay. And it says whichever is what? Greater. So if we have a sign 10 feet in height, [snorts] it's greater than the five feet. Do we need the or whichever is greater? I don't know when I when I read that it looked as if the sign 10 feet in height we have the five feet. I don't know. It just didn't seem right to me.

No comments from anybody else. No, I think it is an either or. So I um maybe you can explain Hyram what the or is equal to half the height of the side. So you greater you gave an example they're both 5T half of 10 is five. So it's 5T then and do we need the or then? Well, if the sign is 20 ft high, then it's got to be located further from the rightway, which makes sense. It's it's a taller sign. It gives you two examples, each being the same, though in essence, right?

Oh, yeah. So, I think the logic is the taller the sign, the further away it should be. [snorts] And that never changed. I don't think this is this is the way it's been written. Yeah, I [clears throat] think well actually the way was it different? It was written um minimum 10 ft back from way currently. Okay. So maybe the question might be why why is it changed to five? Honestly, the reason why I was proposing five is because no one ever does 10. [clears throat] [laughter] And I've looked at some other min codes and they're like five. You know how that actually makes sense. I mean, they literally don't they don't do 10. Yeah.

Yeah. And as ironic as it sounds, from a safety perspective, it's probably safer it's five than they have to turn their head front back. Yeah. I mean, honestly, from an enforcement standpoint, [clears throat] I'm happy if it's just not in the right way. Correct. Right. [laughter] Right. So, you know, I have a question for you on that, Heather. Um, and I was thinking as I was reading through all of, you know, this what we're going through and what we're doing here. Yeah. Do we get a lot of complaints about science? It comes in waves. Of course. I'm sure. I'm sure during election cycles and things like that on a regular basis. On a regular basis, no. There are a couple residents that do like to call and tell me about signs. And I I get it all over and over and over,

right? There's certain areas that they're worried about where they the signs just continue to show up, right? Um, but we we do try to proactively go out and pull the ones down off the utility poles and at the random intersections that are clearly, you know, in the right away. I totally understand that. I mean, I guess my question is guys selling eggs on out of his, you know, on his, you know, uh, a wagon up front or whatever vegetables and he's got to sign, you know, fresh fruit stopping by and obviously it's seasonal. If [clears throat] that if if that I mean, do people call and say, "Hey, that guy's got a sign for sale for eggs or whatever." We have had Yeah. depending. Yes. And we've looked into things like, okay, is this we've had a debate on is this a is this a zoning violation? Yeah. Is it an issue? Right.

Yeah. Okay. I just I was just wondering reading through all this and like did somebody call and say, "Hey, the flag pole's 26 in and not 24 in." And I'm Yeah, I'm a practical person. I don't know how we would know that one, right? No, but you understand what I mean. I think, you know, is is is this one of the complaints that you get a lot? I get the like the the old telephone poles when he used to stick them to that. I totally understand that 100%. You know, it looks generally there's usually if I get a complaint about a sign on like a residential property, there's something else going on. Something else going on. Thank you fair enough. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Totally understand. Okay. Just a [clears throat] question I had. Okay. Any other questions with uh

temporary 30.09. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Um question for Heather. Uh Heather, so under the uh D in non-residential districts, we define the display of no more than four times per year. That's pretty clear, not to exceed 30 days.

In non-residential um in in residential, we it is limited to 45 days. By not saying how many times the temporary sign could be displayed in residential, are we not speaking to it or does it because it's silent to that fact? Can someone take liberties and put it up for 45 and then skip a day for one put it up for [laughter] another 45 days? And obviously that's one I really would object to if they can bypass this provision is in a residential district

that we should be tighter controls that displayed one time one time in a calendar year as opposed to what's in non-residential. Um [clears throat] so the the commercial the non-residential does seem is more strict. I would say the way it's written it's it's saying each no more than four times in a calendar year each period each time not to exceed the 30 days whereas for the residential [snorts] each that sign itself could be up for no more than 45 days right so they could technically take it down and then put it back up right

um I think part of the reason to have the you know it kind of open-ended on like that is to not again to allow allow freedom of speech to allow people to put a sign up throughout the year, switch it out like so, so they 30 days they want to have this sign about something and then later in the year they want to put up something else. This gives them the flexibility to do that. Um, but I think what this does prevent is an a a sign to stay up for years that then starts to look weathered and and and worn and not in good condition. um where I think we would be able to clearly look at the sign, you know, if somebody had something up longer for for longer than that.

So, are we saying [clears throat] that we could have a sign up in a residential district all year all year long except for every month and a half it's got to come down for at least a day. No. Well, and then but if it is longer than the 45 days like and I think we talked about this too, like then is it a permanent sign? So if it's longer than 45 days a permanent sign and then is it then a permanent sign? Does it meet the criteria for a permanent sign? No, I meant if they skip a day and they put it back up. So every two months to meet the provisions of what this says. So So every two months every two months would be six times, right?

Six times a year. So, if we're doing four times a year for for and I know we're a month and a half and I'm that's going to be too much math for me, but um [laughter] hey, look it I I stay in my own lane. I stay in my own lane. [laughter] In a commercial district, you're allowed four times a year for a period of 30 days, right? Is that what it says? Yes. Okay. So, every Right. What is it? Every time every Right. Okay. In a residential district, it's six. Call it seven and a half times. Eight. Eight. Make it eight.

Okay. Make it eight. So, it's eight times you're allowed to have a sign up in a residential district. I think to if I'm reading what Heather's saying and I I respect that and I get I think I know, you know, it's fall allowing somebody to have the not infringe on their first amendment rights is what you said, right? Eight times a year in a residential district compared to four times a year in a commercial district doesn't seem that too farfetched. I get what you're saying. I I understand. Well, respectfully, yeah, I disagree with that. Yeah, I understand. Can the if we're restricting it in the non-residential, why are we It doesn't make sense to me. And maybe I'm not the legal counsel here. Hi, Bry. [laughter] uh you just at your brain just so you know that

without without impacting freedom of speech. We're just talking about a duration in which you can exercise that not too frequently to impact people that live in kids that live in a neighborhood. It just I I don't think we're impacting or I would I would say put it in there and let somebody challenge it quite frankly. But that's my humble opinion. I So do you want it more restricted? Do you want it as as restrictive in a residential district as it is in a commercial non-residential district? Even more so. I Well, even more so. Have have people in our community challenged? Yes. I Yes.

Because that's what we're trying to prevent. Yes. is that challenge to say [snorts] I take it down at day 45 or day 46 and I put it back up on day 47 and they do that the whole year. So you have a sign up there a temporary sign that is basically up there for all year long. Right. That's right. And that's what we don't you know at least that's what I'm saying is

but now if we say the the the the the nonresidential can be no more than four times a year. If we say the residential one is no more than eight times a year it's up all year long basically. What would be an example? But I'm not proposing eight times. No, I know. I know. What What What's an example of a non-residential sign that would be allowed four times a year.

So, like Great Clips. They have a sale coming up. Okay. They want to put a little yard sign out front advertising haircuts, $9.99 or something. Okay. So, what would be an example of a residential sign that's allowed to be up for 45 days? Um, and I got my windows done and I got the little contractor sign in my front yard, you know, but as a homeowner, I'm not going to leave that there for 45 days.

No, you're [laughter and clears throat] not. And and to that point, I had a I I to that point when I did some work at my house, I had a landscape guy did and he want to put up a sign and it wasn't even up 40. It was up 30 days, you know, cuz it's driving me crazy, too. But I mean, I respectfully the guy put it up there and and I took it down. But I guess that's the question is I I is what's the example that we're that [snorts] we're using it? You know, we're allowing a non-residential and I get it for advertising, marketing, or whatever that might be, but we're also but we're are we trying to limit what somebody can have a sign up for more than 45 days at their house and of

I I understand. Okay. So here, let me give you like Well, certainly it's political, but it doesn't always have to be. I [clears throat] know. What about the kid who the guy during the football season? A football season lasts longer than 45 days. I'm just saying those are the complaints I've received.

Understood. and and there's always going to be those complaints, but but if we infringe on, with all due respect, like you said, if we if we're if we're going to take and the the family that wants has the honor student, which we should promote that as much as we possibly can and sports and dur and they that sign's got to be left out there during the football season is four months, right? Four could be five months if they make the playoffs and we're telling them they can only leave it up for 45 days and take it down, right? They had to take it down. So, we're we're limiting them on the pride of their family in the community, right? Because somebody may put a may put a political sign that we don't, you know, that we don't want to see last more than 45 days.

Mhm. Do you see what I'm saying? And I get We say that we say it's not more than 45 days. I get that. I'm just saying it be repeated [clears throat] and repeated and repeated, but we're restricting it to four and non-residential. Is that a violation of freedom of speech? Because we're that's right. I knew bring this point. That's why I I feel like there's a contradiction in the two right the durations. Yeah.

So, should it be no duration on a non-residential district? Should be the same same res, you know, should it be the same on the non-residential on the residential district? Should it should be the same on the non-residential district as it is on the residential district? I mean, as long as you have like a a legitimate, you know, interest for the duration, I think that it's it's enforceable. Um, keep in mind, we're talking about temporary sign. So, when does it then become a permanent sign, right? I think that's also the issue. Not necessarily what's on the sign, but um

when you go when I go to church on 306 in Kirtland, the school, high school there has their pennants, the whole street all year as long as they're in school promoting all their sports, not only football, but track and baseball. And you see them out there playing all the time. and it's for the whole year. It's even there still now. Even though uh school is out and stuff, it's still out there, but they're talking about the spirit, right? And and the neighborhoods um in Kirkland, they like the spirit of the school and they have a lot of people and nobody's going to complain about that. No one's going to complain about No. No.

So, no. [clears throat] But I can see somebody. So do you make the non-res do you make the residential district the same as the non-residential district? Because if somebody wants to put up their kids a football player or cheerleader or lacrosse player or field hockey player and that season lasts for four months, then do we say it basically the same as a non-residential district and then we don't have to worry about infringing on that right for them to do that? It's a temporary sign, [snorts] right?

It it'll come down at the end of the season and if the season lasts three or four months, I'm sure somebody's not going to get upset the team makes the playoffs and goes farther and whatever. Yeah. Originally,

if you look at what we had, right, it was three times a year for in a in a residential district. Yeah. It's in the red mark. Yeah. There you So, three times a year be four months, right? Every four months

will occur for a period. not to exceed this. Each residential unit should shall be permitted once temporary sign promoting a garage sale or other similar household sale. Not to exceed 72 hours, no more than three times in any 12-month period. Um, if the lot's less than 5 acres, it's entitled to a temporary free sign blah blah blah. uh say it'll be removed at there's no there's no limitation but so we're printing some definition better definition to this now I'm just saying is three are we okay with

is every four months more palatable than 45 days taking it down and putting it back up that way you're you're you're hitting those I'm think you're I get what Believe me I do I understand I think to a degree with what you're saying we've had this discussion before and I'm trying to find a more common say okay but I we can't also limit the person who wants to put that sign up that that that their kid's an A student or plays football, cheerleading, basketball, lacrosse, whatever it might be for those seasons, which I think builds community. Okay. Um, and we don't want to limit them either. And to your anybody's point saying, well, nobody complains about those, but will somebody if they're limited on a sign that they want to put up

for so for maybe the majority of people it builds community. for other people. It's like I got signs on my street all time, every day, all the time. Uh again, there's two I'm just wondering where do we That's why we're here. Where do we [laughter] Where do we honor that? Again, the provision and the constitution. I was going to say the Yeah, the first one. Yeah. [clears throat] Honor that, but at the same time, not create a nuisance to people who are saying, "Why am I streets full of signs on here? My kid did this. My kid. Okay, great.

I don't know. I always think about signs if in my opinion when it's a hazardous situation, right? Like if a house is on the corner of a street and the guy might have a big sign out there promoting his his son or his kids, yet it's so big I can't see when I come out to make a turn. For example, my street's a perfect example of that where I live and I come Button Road. If you come down Button Road, you know, from heading from south to north, when the trees start to come up or signs there, by the time I pull out, that car is already there coming 35 miles an hour down the street.

That's the thing I object to the most if it's something that could be hazard hazardous. as far as the durations or things uh the magnitude the promotion of the family's proud children and stuff I don't see that is objectionable to me anyway you know only when it comes to hazard situation

yeah yeah well at least we have the provision under G uh for signs during elections we we have Yeah. So it's really amount [clears throat] to are is this or or can we say restrict non-residential not restrict residential? I guess that's kind of the way it's been I believe. And Heather, you haven't had major complaints about stuff like that, have you? Like you said, very rarely do you get someone complaining about signs in general. Right. Right.

Yeah. But but I think Rich, your your real question is, can we have different time frames for residential versus non-residential? I mean, right. I think you can just like with any zoning restriction, you could set up different provisions or they could be the same. I'm think about like well like in the commercial areas they have a quite an allowance already for permanent signage right to advertise for the businesses. So okay in those areas you know to [clears throat] to have like Cryle Road and um Johnny Cake with temporary signs all year round could become hazardous and distracting for for drivers going by. So

I feel like having a little bit tighter on that is better. But I understand your concern too with the residential. It, you know, it it could allow then individuals to have essentially a sign or a different one or the same one taken down or up all essentially all year round. Um I I don't know if there's a better way to come up with time frames on that. Um and [clears throat] again like we talked about in the past, you know, the enforcement on temporary signs and temporary sign time frames generally in residential would be would be complaint driven. It could be completely I mean unless it was really a you know [laughter] out in my face kind of thing like

right um it'd be difficult to prove the 45 days right so we talked about this I would have that's what it's going to bring on the first day I got the complaint why make them the same oh okay four times a year 30 days yeah I mean I mean if you could do that right I'm willing to compromise [laughter] because I'm I'm trying to put myself in everybody's shoes, not just So that's four months out of the year you have a sign in your yard, right? And that's pretty that's a lot loose to me.

Yes, I agree. But that's what we have in non-residential. [snorts] This is a way to put some type of wraparound on the residential side. If so, it' be if four times a year would be three months, right? Is that right? Four four threes. Four times a year for 30 days and that takes 30 days, right? Instead of 45 days with any no limitation. 45 days continual continual. Yeah, I understand. But you you can still take it down today and put it back up again the way it's written out

after the Well, yeah. Four times a year, Patrick. Not to exceed 30 days. Mhm. So January 1, it's up until January 31. Take it down February 1, put it back up February 2. Mhm. then you'll be done in four months. Okay, that's what I said. Just four months. Okay, that's what I'm saying. I don't have any problem with that. That's what it's written in in non-residential. I'm just suggesting why not make it the same. Make it the same in residential and you can still accomplish you can still That's exactly right. Yes, you can.

Yeah, but but you got to take the effort of going out and taking it out and then putting it back in. Uh come on. I don't think you'll get around that, right? I would think for simplicity and con not not continuity conformity it should be the same whether you pick the 45 days or the 30 days if we're worry about too long then I would say the 30 days four [snorts] and yeah they could 30 days take it out 30 60 90 but then they're they're done for the year they're done but then again if the neighbor complains I don't have any evidence that it's been up for four months. Start over to [laughter]

So, so, so, so in terms of So, what what do you do for enforcement? Take a picture of the data complaint. Oh, yeah. So, are we just going to go another correct? Are we just putting this in our rags just to have something there? Liability. I don't know. Liability is I don't know. It's in there now, right? it. Well, not no. The way it's written now, it's it's it talks about basically yard sale signs, garage sale. It's somewhat silent on any other kind of temporary sign that somebody would might have on their residential property. Um,

I think if you you do accomplish you do accomplish what my biggest concern was if if you make it the same way as not. Okay. you do because it's four months and four months is generally a season. Yeah, it is. Look, I get I'm willing, you know, I'm trying to again see all sides of things and want to make sure that we take care. Can you imagine Heather getting a call and having to go to a home that has their, you know, Riverides going in deep in the playoffs and their kids football picture and you got to take that sign. I mean, there's enough arguments in sports games for kids these days as it is. I don't we don't need to put that on the Heather as well, but I think

but we also there's complaint driven go of course not and there's parameters and I think that that's a fair parameter if and I don't disagree with what you're saying. I I truly don't want to want you to think that I do but I think we also got to try and think that there's not all signs are objectable, right? Or or or or not desirable, right? Some of them are awesome, you know, and um we got to take a look at that side as well. So, I think that that's I mean, if you want to take it make it the same and then that way they they can have their four months. Awesome. You know, if their kids get straight A's again, that's on you. It's not on [laughter] it. And which I don't think I don't think it's I think it does add value to add the time frames in for sure because if you remember, we don't even have sizes right now for temporary size. So maybe we need to look at the sizes that we've been discussing and determine is this too generous because if we know that there's the likelihood that they could

have the sign up longer even if we pick the 30* 4 or the 45, you know, okay, well how many could they possibly have out there and what size? Like could we live with that? Like and again this is these figures that I was proposing were just a starting point. Wow. I thought they were very reasonable. So, is it too much? I mean, is 12 square feet too much? Very reasonable. So, if you think about those small little yard signs, those are about three square feet each, right? So, somebody could do four of those, right? Is that too many? No. No. Because you got to remember they're tiny. No. Okay. Because you could you could or but we we also has that that it could one could be as large as eight square feet.

Yes. Now, that's a little larger. You know, we we're good with these numbers. I I like I think I think they're quite appropriate. Okay. Well, I disagree with that. [laughter] I think these numbers for the size of the sign are are obnoxious. I think they're are way too too big. 3x4. Well, maybe not this one. Right now, we're talking about the free signs, right? Right.

Yeah. And I'm and some of the other signs I think are way too big. But so so one temporary sign this says temporary signs in nonresidential can no be no [clears throat] longer than no larger than 16 square ft [clears throat] [snorts] 4t and high that means it's 4x4 that's half the wall. No, no, no. I know. I just said that

there. But there's and I don't know if you were at this at this meeting if you're absent or not, but there are [snorts] calculations. My brother happens to be in the sign business. Okay. That's what he does. Okay. Um large format digital printing and there are calculations for the speed of a a road and how how much you can see on a sign as you're driving by it. Um for the size of the sign, size of letters, everything like that, right? So understood understand but it depends on where those things are at. Okay. It does and and color too.

Yeah. Well, yes, but more importantly is is that that speed limit, you know, there's a different going 25 miles an hour is a lot different than going 40 m hour, right? And what your eye can pick up and see. And you want to get to a safety issue. And that's one of the safety issues that you can run into is is somebody taking longer to look at a sign and not paying attention to the road.

So that's why they have different size. That's why some sides especially in commercial you know districts and non-resident are because of that because and even even when we had this conversation when the um during the election and I said even myself driving down Girdle Road coming home and I try to read it I try to be informed right and there's a couple times I was looking at one of the signs like what that's what did that say you know I did and and you know I slowed down which I guess I should have done to begin with right to read it but at the same token broken. So there are calculations for that too, Hyram that I realize that but do we do we have these I [clears throat] think those calculations in here.

No, but they're pretty good. I mean I actually I did look at I thought some of them were too small for instance but that's I I then I went back and I got said okay 18 by 30 is that total square footage. It doesn't have to be 1 ft by 4t or it or you know it's not 2x4 which is 8 square ft right it's 18 by 30 or 18 by 28 and that 24 and that kind of said okay that's a normal that's a normal um sign for for politics or whatever yep political science y

so I I actually dove pretty deep into that side because I was on the opposite side of things but um and then I think one of the meetings brought up too somebody said you know when we were trying to pass the levy for the fire department that sign that was out for them was a lot bigger than than that. 4 by8. 4 by8. Correct.

So getting back to Rich's because I think that that's an important part getting back to in in the time frame. Do we want to make it the same in the residential as it is in the non-residential which would allow someone to have [snorts] a temporary sign up theoretically for 4 months because they would do 30 days on one day off and then right

may I ask legal I'm writing so uh does that perhaps provide some defense defensible argument on our behalf against Freeman that we're at least we're consistent. We're not saying non-residential shall be limited for time and then residential to which right anything goes is that it does add to the consistency consistency at least argument even if it's has some restrictions to it right right right absolutely but it's some restrictions but still there's still freedom

yes to it and then I presume if it not complaint driven but and not to have to apply for a variance But the call to Heather and say, "Hey, we're we're doing something special in our neighborhood or blah blah blah. It's going to go on for six months." I don't I don't know. Right. It seems like that's an exception to the rule. And when that would occur, but to leave it open-ended as it is now, I'm I'm uncomfortable with it being open-ended is some type of arms around it for residential Sure. districts. But and to make it somewhere, I thought maybe it provides some defense argument. Absolutely it does.

Well, can we just say [clears throat] shall be displayed no more than four times per calendar year not to exceed 45 days for residential and 30 days for commercial. You could that defeats what I just said, but yeah. I mean, I'm one for the same, but I'm one of five. I mean, you're trying to get continuity. I'm trying to get consistency. I'm asking that's why I'm asking is that more defensible? Yeah. Since they're the same,

but one is non residential and one is residential. We we have different criteria for residential and we have a different criteria for commercial or nonresidential. and and the difference is the amount of time that we have this thing allowed to be up and that's four times a day. I mean, four times a year. I don't know. But but it doesn't hit your fourmon thing or

I think I was I I was more along line with what where Rich was going with this and I think making them and then speaking with Bry as well, making them the same that way it's a little that way it's more I agree with that. Defense. Yeah. And that's what I would I would venture to go in that direction instead of trying to make them different. Even though they make they are they are different. They are different, right? [clears throat] They are that they're different districts, but it's still signage. And I think that that's the most that's the thing you have to focus on more than than the district itself in this situation.

Yeah. To me, time keeping them the same, I think, is the best way to go. The biggest controversy will always come when you get to the size. Mhm. There's more about that how big it should be in a residential being commercial. To me, that's the big that's bigger concern than if we keep them all the same or do. So, I'm I'm for keep them same on both the time. Yeah. Time. Okay. Thank you, Mr. So, we're going to say we're now going to go four [snorts] times a year for 30 days. Both. [snorts] Yes. Proposed. Proposed. [laughter] Okay,

Heather, you got that? Yeah. Okay. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, M. You moving on. Making good time. [laughter] Yeah. Right. I love you. And I wanted to get done with this 30 this 30. We will. We will. We will. We're We're good now. I'll stay silent. Just [laughter] got 27 more comments. Okay. He's got his highlighter over [laughter] there. We're in trouble. Look, I got black and I got a red [laughter] and a pen.

Well, yeah. I got this, too. The rest the rest of this looks Okay. Temporary signs on vacant parcels.

No comment. No comments. Signs during construction. Definitely no comment. 32 square feet. [laughter] That's been that way since 1965. I don't care. [laughter] Just because we did it before doesn't mean it's right. Fair. No comment.

All right. I I had a comment here, but I don't know what it is. Uh on their G G crossed out A, now it's a G. And I have here on the bottom line of this thing, it says shall be larger than 8 feet. No sign, no such sign shall be larger than 8 square feet or a height greater than 4 feet. Okay, I guess that's all right. I had an and in there. Do we need an and?

No, I guess that's all right. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I [snorts] can reach my shot. Okay. Okay. Well, you did a good job against yourself. I I ought to do that more often. Yeah. [laughter] Flag pole and flags. Boy, we beat this one the other the other the other month, didn't we? We did. [clears throat] The the only comment I have and and this is being nitpicky and I don't I think being an engineer the only thing that it drives me there flagpole height [snorts] above grade.

What do flag poles come in heightwise? Yeah. Uh, do they make them so they're in five feet? Oh, in the ground. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. I mean, if depend depending on the diameter of it, and the height of it, right? Is a 40ft pole in the ground 4T. Well, if I'm going to install a 40ft pole, it's going to be in the ground 4 feet. I'm going to go below frost anyways. So, to answer your question, um, that's the key, right? more than you're looking at as as a physical um from falling over. Is that what you're looking at?

No, I'm just looking at is a 40 foot pole above grade 36 35. Well, I think perhaps you're suggesting that a it should say 40 ft in height above grade. Above grade. Is that what you're suggesting? Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Right. Regardless of how deep it is. Regardless of how deep it is. Correct. Well, yeah, that's not to us. Yeah, that that's my that's my point. That's construction, right? What? Okay. I'm above grade. The max is four.

I I think it should say that too, by the way, that it's 40 ft above grade. That's a good point. Go along with that. Okay, Heather, we're going to say above grade right afterwards number A. 40 ft in height. Above grade. Okay. At the base of the pole. Not exactly. [laughter] Okay. Sorry. Okay. All right. Happy new year. Happy new to Hey, we're cruising. You already cruising. Look at you just solved another one of your own problems.

Signs exempt. Any [snorts] comments? Okay. Design and illumination criteria. Ground sign shall not have gaps, cutouts, or penetrations. Can you tell me why? Why can't a ground sign have a cutout? We currently have this in here now and and I just moved it to this section. Mhm.

Um, can I ask you a question better? Can you define define what you mean by gaps, cutouts, or penetrations? Well, if you have a big 4x8 sheet, I want her to do it. Yeah, I I do because I want because you put it in here and I want to understand like because some banners need to have cuts in order to win for when to go through. That's different. Is that different? Well, this is this is regarding this should be for the permanent side. Oh, this is right. I'm sorry. Yeah, got me. You had me going. Yeah, me too. Confused. Okay, never mind. Disregard. Do we need to clarify that this is for that? [laughter] [clears throat] [snorts]

We may need to add something in here to make that clear that these are for permanent design, right? Well, it's under design illumination criteria which doesn't specify presumed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] [snorts] Well, again, I I'm asking a question. Why can't we have a cutout? I don't have a good answer for that. [laughter] It's historic. That's the way it's Well, I know. But is it under the wrong section? Is that No. One under [snorts] the wrong section for design and illumination criteria.

Sounds like the design of the sign. [snorts] Penetrations. Yeah. The white Can we get more clarity on that? What we what I guess it's the best way to do that. Okay. [snorts] On what is defined by gap cut out. But I think's question is why is an objection to have a gap in a ground sign? Is that is that what you're saying? Like basically why can't we have right a cutout? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I wanted to I don't [snorts] mean

for simplest terms, I I think that you know the sign face when I'm like for a freestanding sign, right? Usually the sign face is one solid kind of piece of material like with everything on there. Um, yeah, I guess this does kind of sounds like it somewhat limits the potential creative correctness of someone who might come up with something interesting. That's a good good question. Yeah, [snorts] okay. I can look into some other examples of that or Yep. Yes, please. Maybe maybe we don't need to put that back. I That's what I'm saying. Put it in there.

If the sign's in the shape [clears throat] of an O, is the center of it considered a gap or a cut off? A permanent I mean ground sign? No. Okay. IO. Any other questions? [laughter] Good question. Not on that. I marked I wrote Hyram on that one and with check mark. Oh, yeah. I I'm actually putting your name next to that one, too. Hi. Do Do I have any minuses to go? There's no You did. You answered yourself. You answered yourself. Love. Great.

Oh, that's a good one. That's it. [clears throat] Okay. On illumination criteria B B illumination criteria one. I don't know what number this is. This is still under one I guess. Mhm. Is is it no sign shall be internally illuminated or sign on on my Yeah. No is there no is there? Yeah. Okay. Good good catch. But yeah,

shall be internally illuminated [clears throat] [snorts] on any single family or two family lot except for signs 1 and 12 square ft or less in size. Yes. So we can have a tiny sign illuminated. Yes. And I have I actually have that my address. I have an address sign that's that sits in my on a tree in my front yard. And because somebody yelled at me that I didn't have one, it's on on my house for fire safety. So that they know where my address is at, especially in a dark street. And it's it's a solar one. It goes on and it's

nice enough. Yeah, it is. It meet It meets 5T. [laughter] Good question though. But no, I I I thought it's four feet, but I grandfathered it. It's grandfather. Oh, it is. [laughter] Go measure his. Yeah. He won't let me on his property. [laughter] But it's not hazardous to cause it. No. No. It won't cause a clar. It's barely lit up. Okay. [snorts] Okay. That's I remember when that came up. That was a good That was actually good. So that can be that is allowed. Correct. The no is crossed out, right? No is crossed out. No. No. No. Was there. Okay. No. Was there. No is there except for right now. Except for

Look at us flying now. Okay. Construction and maintenance standards for all signs. [clears throat] Any comments? Maintenance standards. Any comments? I have one B before. This cracks me up. It does. B4.

Each sign shall contain the current name, address, and telephone number of a firmer person responsible for erecting the sign. Such information shall be placed on a frame or other supports and shall only be large enough to [clears throat] be read by a person standing on the ground, sidewalk or parking lot nearest the sign. That's a good point. Dream on, folks. Yeah, dream on. Never happened. Never going to happen.

So, but that's all right. We're going to let it go. See h see how we can inspect that. Okay. I'm not worried about it. not worry about it at all. Okay. Administrative procedures. We have site permit requirements. One copy here, two copies there. Temporary side permit. A lot of red. Any comments? Oh, we crossed out department and made it a zoning inspector. Okay. Regulations for non-conforming signs. 306. Any comments? Permit conditions and inspections. What are you doing on?

I ate fell off. He's okay. It looks crumbled right for me.

Any questions on 30.17 permit conditions and inspections? Sever severability clause and substitution clause 30.19. Any comments? [clears throat] Okay, we made it through section 30. So, can we do this one more time? Heather, make a Don't make a a cutout copy. Make a pure black copy. That okay with everybody. Incorporate all the comments. Well, for the um when we when the board is ready to initiate the amendment, we will still have to have the red track change copy so the public and the trustees understand what what the specific changes are.

Um for next month, I can try to come back and answer the question on the the design component. Um, there were a couple other small things. And then even in your packets this evening, just real briefly, there were a few other things I wanted to bring up. But even since I mailed this to you, um, I I did get a little bit more information. Um, I I ended up reaching out to a couple other communities that have the the flag pole regulations that we're looking at adopting essentially, Madison Village and and Mentor and talk to both their

um staff at both those um jurisdictions and neither one of them actually require any kind of zoning permit to be applied for. I I wasn't a big fan of that when I saw that.

I know. And we when we were talking about it at the meeting, the the discussion was kind of leaning towards if we're going to have rules, we should require a permit. So, that's kind of what I drafted. But after I sent this to you, I I reached out to them. And then I called the Lake County Building Department today and talked to um someone in their staff because we also talked about, you know, well, they're going to need a building permit and that. I'm like, "Let me call and just see, you know, and essentially if someone's going to do a a concrete foundation, a footer for it, then they'll have someone will come and pull a permit." Um, but generally, you know, or or if they're going to do lighting, so if they need to bring electric out to actually illuminate the flag pole, then they'll have to pull an electric permit.

But realistically, I asked her, I'm like, "Does any residential person ever come to you for permits?" And they said, "No." No, it's lit. is really just like the commercial um businesses that are putting them up that actually come and get a pull a building permit and have the foundation inspected and and all of that. So, we're going to strike getting a permit to put up a flag pole. So, I just wanted to let you guys know we don't [clears throat] require a permit. You know, that's fine, too. We could say, you know, when we have commercial stuff come up, generally new things, they'll show it on the plans. So, we'll have an opportunity to look at the flag pole and if it's not in compliance, we can tell them.

Um, I guess if a resident called and asked, hey, what are the heights? We could tell them what are the locations, we can obviously tell them. There are other instances of of the of the zoning resolution having restrictions in there that we don't necessarily require a permit for. Okay. That haven't necessarily been too problematic, I would, you know, say like driveway setbacks and um coverage area for the front yard for driveways. But

so we're striking the permit fee or permit. That's I just wanted to let you guys know if you don't if if the board decides they don't want to have permits, we can I could just eliminate these other sections. Um there's a few that we would still have to do like in section five. We want to make sure we still update that definition of flag because we have it also in section 30. We want them to match, right? Um right. We would still Well, I don't know. I don't know if we would, you know, we would still probably list flag poles as a an access a permitted accessory use under the residential district and point them to section 30 so they can read what the rules are. Okay.

Same thing with the commercial. We would still want to list it under there as an accessory use. Go look at section 30 for what the rules are. Um and then just not not required permit if that's the direction the board wants to go. I personally don't think you should. I think it I agree. I agree with that. Agree. All agree. I have a question about that. [laughter] Kidding. Watch out for the check marks, right? Just kidding. I agree. person. Okay.

All looks good, Heather. Okay. So, we can tweak this for next month. See where we're at with everything. And looks like we're getting close to ready to initiate. We're getting close. Okay. Yeah. $25 for a flag pole going away. Good. Okay. But all the others that it that changed to Oh no, wait. Building wall sign. We didn't change that. Uh flag was away.

No other change. I think we're good. Very good. Excellent job, Heather. Yes. Compliments. Great job, guys. Thank you, guys. It's a lot of error. It's a lot. Well, there's a lot in there. It's a big section. Pretty important stuff. That's why I think I really is. Yeah. It's worth fighting for.

It can be good and important or else it can be the kind of picture to tell you honestly. But okay. Uh, number two [snorts] on old business, uh, July 2026. Heather, I don't think I'm going to be here July of 2026 meeting. [laughter] Just kidding. Well, you know something? That's only I know. 6 months away. I know. It's crazy, right? How does that happen since Yeah. I don't know, but it did. You're right.

But we can always extend it, too. We have the power. Next meeting February. Can I speak to that? Oh, you can just real quick to what? The number two. Number two. Okay. Sure. So, the steering committee is working with the planning consultant. So, um in fact, their timeline is probably going to push past July. Uh even though I think it's supposed to supposed to finish their update of the their work before that, right, Heather? Yeah, we're hoping to complete the comprehensive plan before July.

Before July. So, but to your point the it may push it because by the even if it even if it is complete needs some time to digest it and then discuss how how it impacts this particular issue. We can always extend it. Yes. Yeah, we can. Yes. Yes. Okay. By the incoming chair. [laughter] Wow. That's right. We're warning you. That's right. [laughter] That's a good one. That was a good one. That's a good one. It was. Okay. Hire you did a great job. Very good. You did a really good job. We try.

It's been a pleasure uh having you be our cheer person. Well, we'll see what happens. How many times this your second or third? You've been chair third times? I don't know. Uh twice since I've been here. Twice. Okay. Well, then maybe three. Yeah, maybe three. I don't know. I don't know. But I remember my first one. Do you remember my first one? No. I'm No. Co over the phone. Oh, okay. That was Yeah, it was horrible. Yeah, that was a horrible over the phone. Everything. Those were some bad. Nobody had nobody talked to us at all. They talked right to the contractor. Oh, it was

Yeah, I went home and beat my wife. [laughter] Oh my gosh. Um anyways, on that note, um but seriously, I think you've done an excellent job getting through that. Thank you. I appreciate that. Learned a lot. Okay, next meeting February 3rd, 2026 under a new chairman. And as the new chairman, passing the gabble. Thank you, Mr. I passed it to you. Yeah. Can I say one thing really quick? Yes, please. One of the greatest things I think you did and and I was going to ask you for it when I first got on this commission is to stand up and say the pledge of allegiance. Uh so I will remember that time and I will remember your last one when you corrected yourself in your own. But it's been a pleasure. It has, but I mean that the pledge of allegiance was awesome. Okay.

Great. Great advice. I appreciate that. Yes, sir. We used to do that many years ago and we stopped for some reason. I don't know. Just blame it on CO. Yeah. Blame it on CO. Okay. [laughter] Sorry. Pretend to interrupt you. No, not I wanted to say that. No, actually that will be the closing thing would be any other board have anything else to report? Oh, the the one thing the one thing I want to bring up, uh, Rich Peterson. Yes. Are we giving him a letter of service or thank you for your service? As of right now, there isn't anything put together. Okay. We could probably ask the trustees. I Yeah.

Okay. Point. Do we know how he's getting along? I No, I haven't spoken to him. Okay. But we do have a few. We've got one position open here, one alternative, one alternate here. Mhm. And one trustee here, open maybe potentially trust. Yeah. And we we did have one um person uh express some interest to be on the commission. Um, I did talk to the trustees about that, but they haven't made a decision or Okay.

Um, and I I did reach back out to the person and let them know. Um, so hopefully they're still interested. Um, what? Yes. [laughter] Popular in the community. I I know that. [laughter] So, do we just change seats or do we move next month? Next month. Yes. Whoever gets here first, you have to see 21 [laughter] this evening. Whoever gets here next month, we'll learn about that. Anything else to come before the board this evening? Right. Any comments? Not for me. Nothing.

Heather Bry, anything else before we close then? There being no further business, this meeting stands adjourned. Okay, here we go.