Zoning Hearing Board - Special Meeting

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Okay.

Mr. Johnson, could you just give me one second to get our solicitor online? We're having a little technical difficulty.

Edward, how are you? Rushed. I got in that traffic there. You met Rhonda? Your neighbor here? You met Rhonda? Hi Rhonda, how are you?

I'm good. We met when I was standing there. You sure did.

Okay, just sign.

Thank you.

Okay.

She said her email is refreshing.

Excuse me.

Amy, I think we're going to move on without the solicitor. Okay. Okay.

Very good.

We do have a stenographer.

Okay. Very good.

Huh?

We can do that. That's fine. Thank you. Okay.

All right. So we're going to... Call the meeting to order. Any other new business, Amy?

No, sir.

All right. And do we need an approval of the minutes? Approved. Okay. Second? I'll second it. Yeah, Tom, second. Okay. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. Aye. Those approved. These voting and announcement outstanding decisions, none, huh, Amy? Aye.

There's none.

Okay. And so we're going to move on to hearing of the cases that appeals to be heard.

Okay. Okay. If the appellant's for the Multicultural Center, please come forward and we'll have you get sworn in. Court reporter is not on our TV right now, but is available.

To anybody that's going to speak on behalf of the multicultural community, I want to stand and raise your right hand. We do have the stenographer on or no?

Yes. No.

No, there's not. Can she hear me?

Yes, she can hear you, and I can see her on my screen. We're just missing one over here.

You want to go ahead and raise your right hand? Anybody that's going to speak? You want to go ahead? Denographer.

Okay. Are we ready?

Yes.

Okay. Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

I do, yes.

Okay.

Thank you. Amy, do you want to tell us what we're doing here today?

Absolutely. Absolutely. This is appeal number 13342, presented by the Multicultural, I'm sorry, Multicommunity Resource Center for properties located at 538 and 542 East 10th Street Parcel indexes include 15-2026-125 and 15-2026-127. They are seeking a height variance for a fence in the R2 medium density residential zoning district. Per section 205.10, the city of Erie zoning ordinance must, I'm sorry, the maximum height for a fence in a residential district is 6'6".

Okay, you want to tell us what you want to do there, please?

Sure. Thank you. Good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity to speak today. My name is Katie Kretz. I am the Executive Director of the Multicultural Community Resource Center. MCRC is respectfully requesting approval of a dimensional variance allowing an install height of 8-foot commercial-grade security fence along a limited portion of the rear perimeter of our property, which is adjacent to a public alleyway. Just for a little bit of context, MCRC has served the Erie community since 1975. We're committed part of the East 10th and Ash Street neighborhoods since 1982. Our campus includes three different properties at 554, 542, and 538 East 10th Street. Our primary facility is located in the former Penn Schoolhouse, historically known as the school number 13 at the corner of East 10th and Ash Streets. Over the past 44 years, MCRC has significantly renovated, updated, and maintained the historical building. It currently houses our administrative offices, immigration services department, our childcare program, which also includes our pre-K counts program. In 2012, NCRC acquired the former East 10th Street Methodist Church property, which is right next door, and the portion of the fencing involved in this particular request is located along the rear perimeter of our campus, near that property, and the adjoining city-owned alleyway. Our facilities are used every day by children, older adults, refugees, immigrants, families, staff, and other community members. We take our responsibility to provide them with a safe, welcoming, and well-maintained environment very seriously. We recognize that our properties are located in an R2 residential zoning district and that the permitted fence height is six feet, six inches. And we're not seeking to change the use of our property or expand our operations or introduce new use to the neighborhood. We're simply requesting that the limited dimensional variance of the additional 18 inches is what's in question here. This request is based on a demonstrated safety and security needs Not appearance, not convenience, and certainly not a desire to intensify any of our operations. Over the years, the fencing along this particular rear of our property has been repeatedly climbed, cut, damaged, and compromised. MCRC vehicles have been vandalized and broken into, and individuals have entered and crossed our property without authorization. And this existing fence has already demonstrated that a fence approximately of six feet is insufficient to deter the activity. The public alleyway behind our facilities experiences considerable foot traffic. It's also regularly used by MCRC clients, staff, and children to access the playground and our community garden, which is to the rear of our property. This means that our children and other vulnerable individuals must enter and use an area that we've experienced repeated unauthorized access vandalism and property damage. The damaged property was removed as part of a replacement project. Once the rear perimeter was exposed, the risk actually became more apparent. Just last week during business hours, an individual entered our property through the area where the damaged fence had been removed. The individual broke a locked secure of a bicycle of one of our older adult program participants and stole it. For this particular participant, that bicycle was not just a recreational possession. It was his primary means of transportation used to attend programming, purchase groceries, and meet other essential needs for his family and himself. The fact that the theft occurred during business hours while our employees and clients were present continues to demonstrate the seriousness of the current risk. We believe that our request meets the considerations for granting a dimensional variance. First, the property has physical circumstances that distinguish it from a typical residential lot. MCRC operates a large long-established institutional campus occupying a prominent and exposed and multiple public right of ways, including East 10th Street, Ash Street, and the adjoining public alleyway. The configuration of our campus is exposure on multiple sides, the location of our outdoor program areas, and the use of the alleyway to access route, create security conditions that are not ordinarily present on a typical residential property. Second, strict compliance with the residential fence height limitation would prevent MCRC from effectively securing this unique exposed portion of the property. Replacing the damaged fence with another fence essentially of the same height would reproduce the conditions that already exist. So our request is to make a substantial investment in a fence that could not continue to be climbed, cut, or otherwise compromised. Third, the hardship was not created by MCRC. The corner configuration of our property, its direct adjacency to the public alleyway, and the location of our playground, garden, and outdoor program areas are established physical conditions that we can't change. The recurring trespassing, vandalism, theft, and damage has been caused by third parties despite MCRC's good faith efforts to maintain the current property. And then fourth, the requested fence will not alter the essential character. of the neighborhood or interfere with the use of neighboring properties or harm any public welfare. The replacement fence will remain substantially the same rear perimeter location as the previous fence adjacent to the alleyway. It's not going to expand MCRC operations or create any additional traffic, noise, lighting, drainage, or parking impacts. It's intended only to prevent unauthorized access and protect the people that are utilizing our campus. MCRC, like I said, has served Erie for more than 50 years, and we've called our neighborhood home for 44 of those 50 years. We've invested in these properties, maintained them responsibly, and worked very hard to create a campus that is safe, attractive, open, and welcoming. For these reasons, MCRC has respectfully asking the zoning hearing board to approve the dimensional various permitting an eight-foot commercially grade security fence along the limited rear perimeter adjacent to the alleyway. And I thank you for your time and welcome any questions.

Eight years ago, that was a public school?

Yes, sir.

What was the name of it? You remember?

It was the Old Penn Schoolhouse, and it was schoolhouse number 13.

Okay.

Yes, sir.

And what was your last name?

My last name is Kretz, K-R-E, T as in Tom, Z as in zebra.

Is there anybody else to speak on behalf of the variants? All right, Kate, you can have a seat for now.

Hi, my name is Kathy Schaaf, S-C-H-A-A-F. I am a resident of the city of Erie. I am quite familiar with that area, having lived for four years on Fifth and Ash. My grandmother lived on Fifth and Ash for many years, and she was burglarized, and we were burglarized twice. in the four years that we lived on 5th and Ash next to an alleyway. There's something about those alleyways that people think they can, I don't know. But I affirm everything that she presented. I would definitely think that if you want people to be continually employed there, And children, to go there, they need to feel safe. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Kathy.

Anybody else to speak on behalf of the variants? Is there anyone else who wants to speak on behalf of the variants? Anybody else would like to speak on behalf of the variants? Hearing none, is there anyone who would like to speak opposing the variants? Name and address, please.

526 East 10th Street. Hi, my name is Mustafa Aldamani. I represent my father and the rest of my family.

Excuse me, Chair. He needs to be sworn in.

Oh, yeah. Court reporter, he's going to need to be sworn in.

Can I have you raise your right hand? And let me know when you've done so. Okay, I can see you. Okay. Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

I do.

Thank you.

Please make sure you speak into the microphone just so everybody gets picked up. Thank you.

Hi, like I said, my name is Mustafa Aldamani. I represent my father and the rest of my family. We reside at an adjacent property, 526 East 10th Street. We're not here to oppose the height variance itself, but we are currently in a legal case regarding the implementation of a fence between the driveway that resides between our property and the MCRC campus. We're just here to ensure that any height variance would not impede on our property as we have Been encountered by them and told that due to this New implementation that they will move forward in putting up a fence that will go between our driveway And their campus and this one impede on our property So we're just here to ensure that this height variance wouldn't have any effect on our current property in our driveway at least until the legal case has been closed and

Okay, Kate, would you like to come back up and reply?

Okay, just for clarification purposes, the portion of the fence that we are replacing is to the rear of our property. Our neighbors here are adjacent to us to the west of us. This variance has actually nothing to do with the legal battle between our two parties. The fence that we are referring to is in relation to... appropriate possession of said property. So again, it has nothing to do with this variance. And certainly if a fencing would be installed, that wouldn't be a decision for today. It would be a decision for the court system.

Thank you.

Yep.

Question.

So sorry.

You said it would be west, their property is west of you. Yes. Are you going to connect that fence to an existing fence that they're talking about in between your property?

So the fence would be somewhat connected, but not completely. It was just at the corner.

So their property- Let me say that again.

Sure.

Is that fence going to be connected to the disputed piece of property?

It would be at the corner of the disputed property, yes, sir.

Okay.

But it would not replace anything that's currently there that is connected or on their property.

What is the dispute?

What is the dispute? Yes. Okay, so when we had purchased the property of the church back in 2012, the church and our neighbor's property shared a driveway. actual property line goes about six feet into their driveway. So that's the dispute with them. It has nothing to do with the north replacement of the fencing that we are currently speaking about.

It wouldn't unless it moved into the driveway.

Correct. Yes, sir.

And will it move into the driveway?

I don't know. It's currently in litigation. So I can't answer that question.

No, I think the question is, will the fence move into the driveway? Am I right about that?

The current fence that we're speaking about would not move into the driveway. No, sir.

It will not move into the disputed area. No, it would not. So that affirms to them that your fence will not move into the disputed area.

Correct. The fence that they are worried about is us potentially fencing in our actual property line, which goes into six feet of their driveway, which would be determined at a later date by a judge. So that's the concern that they have is that this variance wouldn't guarantee that the eight foot variance given would allow for that height if that fence were to be able to be installed.

Thank you.

Yes, sir.

So their driveway, it's the driveway off 10th that you're talking about? Yes. And it doesn't extend to the alley?

No.

Their entire property does extend into the alley.

Does extend. Yes, sir. Is there a driveway to the alley? Can you access your property from the alley, I guess?

Our property? Yeah. Currently, we haven't had a stop. This is also for our own protection because we've had issues with people in that same property.

From tents right, okay. Thank you, which isn't part of this requested variance Any other questions from the board So back to Ed's question then is your intention to build this fence to your property line on the on the rear at the alley and

The current property line, yes.

The current property line. Okay.

So it would replace what's already been there.

Okay. And there's no easement there?

No.

No, sir. For the driveway?

No, sir.

Okay.

Anything else from the board?

Sir, can you come up to the microphone? Yeah, so the current fence that we have at the rear, I do have a concern that they might claim that their property line, again, because they said it extends six feet into our driveway, and that rear fence would encompass that six feet. So I'm concerned that they might ask us to put down that fence for them to implement their own new fence, or if they might have to work on that. Again, I just want to clarify that question. We would not like to have any work done on the current litigated area, which is six feet into the driveway. But, again, that is where our rear fence resides, and that would encompass the rear fence area that they are talking about right now with the height variance.

And you currently have a fence there? Yeah. And it's in good shape?

What's that?

And it's in good shape?

Yeah, relatively good shape, yeah. Like it hasn't been broken into any time recently or – Again, we've done work on it, and it's been up for years. We haven't had any major issues within the past couple of years for it. Okay.

So, Katie, what would the fence variance that you are requesting, so let's say it's completed, would it touch their fence, or would it go past their fence?

Currently, it would touch their fence. We would have a corner post right where the disputed property line is. We have zero intentions on doing anything with the additional six foot until that's been decided in court.

Okay. Okay? Okay.

So we're simply replacing the fence that we just took down.

Okay. Okay. Thank you.

Serge, did you want to add anything else? This is the surgeon in convict. He is our associate director of operations at MCRC.

I think you'll have to get more in it also Okay, do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do Thank you I just want to add it to it since neighbors already here then in the past How our fence is, it's on a corner of our building, if you can show that. It's not passing, actually our property go another seven feet almost there, but it's not passing the building.

Does the stenographer have your name and address?

Okay, my name is Serge Ninkovich and I'm Associate Director at MCRC.

Could you please spell that for her so she can type it into the record correctly?

All right, last name, it's N-I-N-K-O-V-I-C. First name, it's S-R-D-A-N.

Thank you. Okay, continue.

All right, so just in the past, our neighbors here have a fence on the back, which is eight feet. Ours were six feet, which we originally posted in twice before because it was taken down. And they can testify, then... it was cut, our fence was cut, and people committed crime, went into their properties, and they came to us to look at our cameras to help them out with that. I mean, that would be nice if they say they would actually benefit them to have stronger fence on the back so nobody can come through our property to their property, because we do not have a property, a fence property between us. As of right now, it's wide open. We never put it in. That disputes completely something else. So we did not We do not have a fence. I just want to say, and they broke through our fence and went to their property, caused damage. They came to us to look at our cameras to help them out. I think that would be fair for them to kind of say it would help them too if this fence is stronger, same like their is, so nobody can come from the back alley to their property or our property. I just want to add that, yes.

To the chair, and I guess to the code enforcement, you have specific laws already on the books on where a fence can be located between properties. And we're not asking for a variance to- That's correct.

It's on the application and I've displayed where it has to be put according to the zoning ordinance.

So there's a distance between properties according to code.

Well, it can be right on the property line.

Right. It's going to be on a property line. There's already there.

Okay. Thank you.

Any other questions from the board?

Yeah. So just to clarify, your current intention is to end your fence project, this particular fence project, at the corner of your building? Yes. Not onto their property? Correct. Okay.

and it's already posted, it's already there, they can testify that the post is already there. Nobody passed that post, it's already, nobody's going to pass that. So we don't have no intention of passing that. This is just for the safety from the alley. That's it.

Okay. Okay. Thank you. Can I clarify everything or do you have another question?

Yeah, and again, if everything that they say that their intentions aren't to impede on our property at all, I would say that we are in support of them getting the height variance. I do believe that that would reinforce the safety of our property. But again, if that comes at the cost of them impeding on our driveway, which, again, they're expressing that as of right now they don't, then I don't see an issue with the height variance of the existing fence.

Good. Thank you.

And my mother would also like to share a few words, if that's okay.

You're going to need to get sworn in.

You swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

State your name and address, please.

First name, S-U-A-A-D, Suad. Last name, A-L-I-S-S-A. I live in 526 East 10th Street. Erie, Pennsylvania, 16503. I want to excuse me if I have some broken language. My son will help me if I'm stuck. I want to say I live in this address from 2002. We buy it and it's all paid off. I was working hard, me and my husband, to get this house in wonderful area. Even it's so busy, that's what I like. And all this time we don't have any issue. Even we try to do something in the backyard. I asked the lady of the church before these people on it. She said, it's your backyard. It's your driveway. You can do anything. I raised my seven kids and seven grandkids in this small backyard. It's what's safe with the gate. And if they do fence, we cannot enter or exit in this backyard. backyard again I just want to say when they we told them we are welcome we always home if you need to do anything in the window we gonna get the fence free for you I don't know and when they fix the land they put something for water they said you cannot drive in this area anymore I don't know, how come driveway with no driving on it? I just wanna keep my backyard For my grandkids and my kids, to us, I don't know. With the fence, we're going to lose it, and we don't have any enter or exit in the backyard. And when we get this home, they told us, you have the driveway, you have the garage, you need to switch the electric from the church to your home. And we hired someone. He switched the electric. From the garage, and if you see the garage is facing the other way. I don't know. I hope I say what I need to say clearly.

Yes. Thank you.

Thank you. You're welcome.

Again, please excuse the language barrier. But again, she's just reiterating our main concerns. I understand that, again, we've reiterated that this fence will only reside on the rear property. But again, we do have concerns over the access to our backyard. And once again, if their intentions are clear that this has no effect with the access, it is only to the rear to ensure that both the safety of our property as well as their property. We don't see any issues with that. Of course, we are still going through the legal proceedings. And when we get there, we get there. But if this current fence and this current height variance will only affect that of the rear, we have no issues with that.

Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions from the board? Anyone else to speak on opposing this variance?

Good afternoon. Jason Check, city solicitor. I'm actually not opposed or in favor. I just, for purposes of the record, I think it would be helpful if we can clarify. We're talking about driveway and some yard. If someone could describe the actual parcel that's in dispute, that might be helpful for the solicitor if she has to write something when she comes back. So it sounds like this is a rectangular piece that goes from 10th Street to the alley in six feet on both sides, and then it comes back. And part of it sounds like it deals with the driveway in the front part and maybe some grass in the back. So that's what I'm assuming. But maybe one of the parties could actually describe the parcel so that, like I said, if something needs to be drafted, that could be helpful.

Thank you.

Do you mind if I just say one thing? This was all supposed to be on the north side only of the property from what I dealt with with the contractor. That's what we denied. He was going for a full variance of just the north side, which is touching the alley. It didn't go any further east or west or south.

Is there anyone else to speak opposing the variance? Last time, anyone else to speak on opposing the variance?

So I just want to provide additional clarification for the scribe. If you take a look at your screen currently, our property begins at Ash Street. So the big building on the right is 554. There is a small sliver of property in the middle of our parking lot, which is 544. And then 538 East 10th Street is a majority of where the property is. So from the corner, of our current fencing, which does not go all the way to our established property line based upon this plot map. It goes from the edge of our building, if you can scroll over right there to the edge of our building, the north side along that alleyway, all the way to the edge of 544. So it's only a portion of the back of the property. The current property in litigation outside of what we're discussing today is where the plot map, you can see where the line goes from the north end of the property to the south end of the property, which is the west line. That's the property that's in dispute. MCRC is claiming that six feet beyond our building and into the driveway is our property established by the plot plan and also by a licensed surveyor. So that's what is in question outside of today. So that's what actually is going to court in litigation. So just for clarification purposes for this meeting, the property dispute between us and our neighbors is not in question. It is simply the north line of both 538 and 554 is what we're looking to replace along the alleyway.

Okay.

Thank you.

All right.

Thank you.

Any questions from the board?

No, sir. No.

We'll call for a vote.

Okay. I think first, like what we're voting on, we can add conditions, can we not? So can we make it conditional that it ends at the building, not at the property line?

Yes.

Okay, so I would make a motion to approve the variance with the condition that until your litigation is resolved, it ends at the corner of your building where the current fence currently ends. Does that make sense?

Yep.

Okay.

All right, so are we going to vote on two things or just one?

I think it would just be the one.

That's just the condition.

Vote with the condition.

Okay, we'll vote on it with the condition. Yes. So we'd need a second.

Second.

Okay. Okay. Mr. Siebold.

Approved.

Dr. Matthews. Approved. Mr. Dawson.

Approved.

And Mr. Johnson.

Approved.

Okay, four to zero. The motion has been granted with the condition of... coming to the end of that building until your further court case is heard. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you, everyone.

Thank you. That's the conclusion of our hearings today. Motion to adjourn?

So moved.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Thank you.

so so