Common Council - Special Meeting

Good evening. I'm now calling this meeting to order at 6:39 p.m. Will you please stand for the pledge of allegiance in the prayer to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Everyone, please bow your heads. Uh [clears throat] most precious father, we come to you today so humbly. We ask for your grace and mercy. We continue to thank you for the blessings that you've bestowed upon us. Lord, we ask that you uh keep our uh firefighters and our police officers safe. Lord, we ask that you keep our city workers families uh um safe and that then we appreciate our workers as they enjoy the holiday season as folks uh get themselves ready for next year. We just uh say a special prayer for everyone um during this holiday season and we ask this in your most high name. Amen. Amen.

Thank you. Amen. We [clears throat] do have a quorum. Yeah, we do have a quorum. And I just want to verbally say that there has been a been an amendment to this agenda. At the end, we will do a presentation after the public hearing. Okay. New business. We have a proposal number 12, 2025. Council, Madame Clerk, would you please read into record Proposal number 12, 2025, an ordinance of the common council of the city of Lawrence, Indiana, appropriating additional funds and amending the 2025 budget. This proposal Thank you, Madam Clerk. This proposal has been properly advertised for public hearing. Do I have uh unanim do I have an agreement to open the public hearing?

I Yes. So, Madam President, what you will need is unanimous consent from the counselors in order to proceed because this is an ordinance and it has not unanimous consent. So, do we vote? You could do a verbal consent and that's to consider this on all readings this evening. Okay. So, I will do a roll call. Councelor Giles, yes. Councelor Wells, yes. Councelor Chavis, yes. Councelor Robinson, yes. Councelor Jennings, hi. Councelor Freeman, yes. Councelor Cron, yes. Councelor Msulla,

yes. Thank you. I would now open for a public hearing. Anyone from the public who would like to ask questions, come forward. Daniel Rap, 5718 Wallingwood Drive. I have several comments or statements to make about this proposal and the first one will be financial reporting. I'm going to say I looked at the October monthly statement that was posted out on the web page and on it it had a $90,000 deficit but yet when I read the proposal for tonight for the general fund asking only for 102,000 and in my common sense If you were already over 90,000 in October, November and December have not been counted. And I'm almost assured that the payroll for any one person is greater than the difference between 90,000 and 102,000. So I I come to the conclusion about the October statements that were posted on the city of Lawrence web page. The numbers are either being manipulated

or we're all being played. And as a citizens of Lawrence, I don't like being played. Okay. Next item according to this the proposal the notice in the paper on the 17th of December had 4 million and some for the general fund plus the other funds you went from 4 million to 102,000 seems like again manipulation of the numbers. Now, let's go back in history. Go back to 2024 about a year and a half ago when there was a proposal about the 2024 budget. It started out at 6 million. Then it came down to 4 million and finally the proposal that was agreed to was 300,000. Is this a coincidence that we start with a big number and go down? I don't believe in coincidence. Next item, and this is the one that really got me about the 2024 proposal, and you went and put more money out there that they were short, like 6 million, 4 million. You ended up passing a proposal for the retirement fund and the general fund that were less than a half million. But in February of 2025, the uh

Mr. Night uh Midnight put a statement out there on the website saying that we had a $8 million surplus, 9% over. And I'd like to know how we went from needing a half million to being 8 million over. Manipulation of the numbers being played. I really And if you want to look at that memo, I went and copied and pasted into a word document because I was afraid of the 1984 memory hole that it would be sucked in and never seen again. Yes, it disappeared. Uh now getting to the 2025 shortfall that we're here about tonight. And as I said, we went from a high number to a low number. Coincidence? As I said, or is it strategic planning? I have played games as a controller or resource manager. what I was and I played games. Start with a high number, come with a low number. Person think that you did a good deed and they go ahead and pass it. I asked a question, what justification do we even have for the 102,000 at this point in time? My question is at 29th December, the year is about over. All the financial transaction except for two days or three days worth have been posted. So if you're over budget, passing something tonight is not going

to make the overbudget go away. It may somewhat shade it and hide it, but it still happened. I'd like to see some draft interim December financial reports posted to the website tonight yet. Maybe you people on the common council have seen them. I as a citizen has not. H now about this shortfall. if there is a shortfall. On the last common council meeting, I heard some council members making a statement that approving vouchers with basically after the fact. The contracts has already been issued. The contracts has already been f uh fulfilled by the contractor. And if we didn't pay, you're going to be sued. Well, I look at it this way. To solve that problem, the common council should make an amendment to the resolution, back up voucher approval, and replace it with incumbrance approval. So, if they want to issue a contract before they put the incumbrance on the books, you have to approve it. then you know what is out there and yes they can do that because I've seen incumbents appear now on the financial reports here recently uh and I don't know and this is a little bit off the topic I got my note that I made

back on the 20th of December, I requested made a request for information to the city of Lawrence because I was at a redevelopment commission uh meeting and during that meeting in November they approved a spending plan. Nobody said anything about what's on a spending plan that the redevelopment commission s uh approved it unanimously. As a resource manager, a spending plan means you're going to spend money and it's a date as to when it's going to happen and where the money is coming from to today. Yeah, it's been what, nine days? I have not seen a reply to my request. Why are we hiding it? Can't be that difficult to go out and find one piece of paper that happened within the past month. So, have all the documents made it into the financial reports? And I have to use the word financial reports because I don't get to see the balance sheet or the income statement, revenue, budget. I only see reports that come out of them.

Mr. Rabbit, your time is up. There was no time set. Ma'am, when you open it up, you did not set a time. Okay, then you have Yeah, I'll give you two more minutes. Are you censoring me? We're not censoring you. What else you have to say? No, she gave me the floor and I'm asking you. Yeah. Are you censoring me, Mr. Rap? Let me give you two more minutes. I'm asking him how much more.

Okay. I since I'm being censored, I will move to the last item on my thing here and that is the notice put in the paper on 17 17 December called this a regular common council meeting. It did not say special. There were no word in that notice that said public hearing. So there were no public notice even though you read saying that it was all duly noted. I made a photo copy of that notice and it does not say public hearing since I've been censored and cut in time. Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Rat. [clears throat] Anyone else from the public would like to make a statement? Three minutes. No one else. Okay. Can we hear from the administration?

They're looking at each other. Controller. Yes, ma'am.

This is a special. Yes, madame president. Hi. Mhm. Um, you wanted me to make a comment? Well, I do have some questions, but you can make a comment. Go ahead. No, I didn't have a comment. I If you if you want to ask questions. Okay. It's on the proposal number 12. And you have a it's [clears throat] been itemized uh and dollar with dollar amounts. If you could explain that to us what those items are the [clears throat] and why you're requesting that amount for the general fund.

General fund. Uh we have other services and charges for uh professional services uh for uh one of our departments that um we did not have uh enough general funds to cover that line item and so we are requesting additional funding to um satisfy that line item deficit. Um I don't want what do we do? Anyone has a question? I got a lot of questions. [laughter]

Yeah, I have uh this is a question that I asked Mr. Goodn Night back before Christmas. Uh what is because let me back up in September, end of September when the mayor stood where you are and presented the budget. I believe she said that the general fund had like in excess of $3 million. And well, this is just for this line item. The general fund is posted by line item. Uh whether or not the general fund overall has a surplus, you have to fulfill the line item um

uh deficit for uh for the general fund. Okay. So, how much is in the general fund right now? Dollar for dollar, I couldn't tell you right off the top of my head. Um I think the surplus is like maybe 1.5 and please don't quote me on that.

Is there not in any other line item any other budget these funds that could be transferred instead of it coming out of the reserves. What you guys are looking for tonight. You can't transfer from one uh category to the other. If it was in within the same category, we could satisfy that. But as I ran the report today, there was no surplus in order to satisfy that line item in the common council fund.

Well, no overall funds, general fund for that line item. So, I think it would be clear if um we for the good of the order and for the public because they may or may not be looking at the sheet that we are and [snorts] we specify the specific dollar amount and we specify specifically what department the pro professional services is for. It says common counsel. Okay. And then following that is the communive um capital improvement fund. Correct. And those dollars. Can you explain that? Well, I got questions about the common council one. Yeah. Okay.

I mean, Liz, go ahead. Go with yours, but I got question. So, there have been lots of papers. Um, and I want to make sure that I am addressing the right one. So the information I have is that there is 102,000 for the common council or is it 130,000 for the common council? I don't ever remember 130 from my understanding. Uh from all the invoices that were submitted uh it was 102,000.

Okay. So you have 102. And that um raises some questions because we had uh the common council had explained that our actual bill to Frost Brown Todd was $130,000. So we want to make sure that we're clear on the amount that we would like paid to Frost Brown Todd. So that has to do with that. Are we ready to move on to the cumulative capital or do you have further questions? I just wanted to make sure

that that was clear with that [clears throat] amount that the amount that was needed. Now, what happened? The reason why that 131 131,000 came up because it was stated that we were over our budget amount and it was a higher dollar amount that was given to me and Frost Brown Todd had to take the time to go through their invoices. Additional dollars had been added. So it was a 102 was initial, but then 131 came up at the final end. So that's where that 131 came. I don't know if you ever received that email.

I don't ever recall receiving that email. My last communication was to Frost Brown and Todd and I believe you councelor u I remember the 102. I said please confirm that this is the amount that we are requesting and the amount that I had on the email was 102,000. Okay. So, [clears throat] you didn't receive I I think we need to maybe it might be appropriate to have our legal counsel confirm that since it's there in voice. Yeah, I would certainly be happy to do that. And I would note for the record that the notice itself that was published is for $131,000. I was just going to say that I I looked at it today.

Okay. In the indie star. So, how would that that will put that would still leave the council in a negative if we just do 102,000 when it should be 100? No, it it it was notice for 131. So, it is 131 unless we amend it. Oh, yes, ma'am. Well, it's in the ordinance for 102 though. That has to be in the ordinance, right? 131 in the ordinance. They will have to change it to match what was in the public. But I'm very concerned to why until you just said that published, you act like you never seen the 131 number before. I don't think not for the common council. So who published it? It came from frost brown Todd and I'm sure I don't know. Who published it? It's line item. It's in the public notice. Okay.

Who published it? Well, we published the notice. So not for the common council. It was never 131. It was always 102 and that was the communication that went to uh that was the email communication with the listing. I understand your email but you published it at 131 but that wasn't it didn't include that wasn't for the common council though. What was it for? It's under common counsel then what's it for? What's it for? It's Yeah. Let her let her take a look at it cuz we need to we need to be on the same page. That's what I'm trying to get us on the same page. I'm sorry. Council Chrome you approach and sure.

[laughter]

Me either. Me either. Player me. She got home. I just know. She's calling you a teenager. She calling you a teen. This was what was published today by hard to believe. Published today for whom we in DAR or that's what it was. Okay. It was published today. Well, no, it's on the 17th. Oh, okay. But so yeah, that included everything initially with I mean that's that's everything. So who was that? What I'm saying is that's

[clears throat]

I thought I was going to be going home.

Yeah, that was for that wasn't just for the common council though. So, what's the other 30 grand for? Um, yeah, I can't recall right off the top of my head, but uh, basically what that posting included was just everything that we thought we were going to need. And so there was other another line item under other services that we were able to satisfy. So the numbers just coincidentally are the same number. All right. So that means if it was never for

but it should be now then, right? Because if it's if if it's published and we amend the ordinance to 131, then that money should be to pay our lawyer. We can we get to that place. From my understanding is when I sent the communication. I'm saying a new understanding, not the past. I'm saying now I just asked for confirmation with all the invoices we listed and all the charges for November and December. I said, "Please confirm this is the number we are requesting." Well, maybe if I looked at the publish and it's the same number, isn't that superseded to email

at this point? I mean, I understand all that. I'm not involved in all that, right? You're asking me to make a vote tonight, right? I I was just asking for how much are we saying that you We need $131,000 for Frost Brown Tie and you have $131,000 published for the common council. I'm just saying that wasn't the communication. So, where are you short? That's why I asked you what's the other 20 grand for? So, I can maybe give you that. No, I don't need that. I don't need We're only asking for 102. No, you published 131. You said it was for other items outside of us. You published a whole bunch of stuff. Well, that's makes me say no to all this I'm No,

I'm done. This is crazy. Okay. Um, yes, ma'am. Yes, counselor. Um, [clears throat] right. But I just could you close the public hearing? You have you have confirmed that the total amount owed to Frost Brown Todd is I'll have to confirm what the number is. That's what I'm trying to Okay. So, we're we're going to put a pen on that. Okay. Uh, another question I have though is is was there a a line item in there for EMS personal services?

Yes. Okay. Can you explain that? Um, they just came in over budget [snorts] and it's for $150,000. But but but but why did they come in over budget? 150,000. I mean, why? because we're to Mr. to the point we are at December 29th. Salaries have been paid. Salaries didn't get posted till the 30th. 30th of November. No, this is December the second pay. This is from my

right. So, but if you're 150 short, you're saying that's that's one payroll run. So, you you basic that wasn't one payroll run. It was just accumulation of for the whole year of short. Yeah. Right. They're short all year. So the budget not of payroll. Not all year. Nine months out of the year. 10. I mean, you've been short. It's not just this month. Right. Right. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. But we had I we had to let the December 30th payroll post so that we could actually see what it was.

So if we don't if we if we don't approve this, can you make payroll next week? That payroll will fall in January. January. So the answer would be yes. Yeah. Because you got a new budget. So you can make it. It's a new payroll. I mean it's a new year. New year, right? Yeah. So you got enough money to make whatever. Is there any more payroll due this year? No. So what am I giving you money for?

Okay. So the emergency service is fine. It's just short. So you just want to put some money in it just to make it feel good. No. Look good. Well, I mean that's up to you. You can make that decision. No, I mean that's what you're asking just to put a little money in there cuz ain't nothing in there. You just want to put something in there. No, I don't want to just put any money in there. I just want to make sure that the fund is sufficient to make sure it covers all the expenses for this year or next year? For this year. We only got a couple more days left for this year. That's an expensive couple days. [laughter] I'm trying to figure this out. Today's the 29th, right? Mhm. Yeah. Two days.

Got two days the rest of the year. You got a new budget for 26. You say that you've paid everything already for this year, but you want to make sure your fund has enough money in it because it looks short. Do you have some liabilities that you need to pay out for 25 and 26, I assume? No. Well, the next payroll covers is in January the 3rd, which will cover the last week or so of December, but it will be in January of 2026, right? So, that payroll will be in 2026.

So, you need this money to pay for that week of payroll that's in 25. If it's a two week payroll, the one week is in 25 and the other week's in 26. I mean, am I slow or Okay. No. You see what I'm saying? Like, is that what you're saying? Am I asking? I'm just saying that the fund was short and well, but it's just to cover the expenses. I'm just saying I get it. Are you It's kind of like this. It's not covering 2026. So, cover 25. Exactly. What liability do you need to pay in 25 with two days left? That's all I'm asking. It's not the next two days. It's the expenses that have occurred throughout the year,

right? That So, we're already at a shortfall and you knew that before December 29th. Why didn't you? And and let's clarify, it's not expenses. This is a personal service ask. So, this is salary. Salary. So, it's specifically salary. So, so we were only going to ask for one appropriation at one time. We weren't Why did the salary go up? Why? Why do we need more money for salaries when we budgeted? What's the problem? I don't understand why all of a sudden he didn't have enough money bonuses. Did they have overtime concerns or No. No. No. Did you have money to pay that bonus you paid out? Yes.

This that's this is emergency medical services fund. That's not the general fund. It's the EMS. Correct. So EMS folks, it's not enough money. All EMS people have got their paycheck. They got a check due on January 3rd. You have the money to pay that paycheck. If we don't put this money into the fund, what's going to happen? We'll just be short next year. We'll be short next year. So, you didn't budget enough in 26 because we're paying 25. This is 25, right? So, we budget enough 26 funds and pay for 25. We need to talk slower cuz I'm still confused.

Me, too. I I I think I think what what what what they're trying to say is if if we have been in a deficit in personal services for several months, let's say it's been several months, then why didn't we cover that in the 2026 budget? Yes, I think that's what is the point that councelor Jiles is trying to make. You can do that. We could have done that. And we kept saying we wanted to deal with all the city's issues in the budget process. I told you big dog. [laughter]

Tim Barry with Crow. As it relates to the 2026 budget, you would only be able to deal with and address the 2026 expenses in the 26 budget. an additional appropriation for this year would need to be made for this year's budget um to appropriate additional funds to cover the expenses of this year. Chris, crystal clear on that. I think the point was I'm not we were short.

That is something that should have been shared during the budget process. You know, I understand that the request I I understand that we wanted to make one single request and do one appropriation. Like that that makes sense and I get that, but seems like some of these shortfalls are not things that we just found out about in the last 30 days. And so I think it's just concerning that 150,000 for EMS, you know, that's that's significant shortfall that has been going on for more than just a month. So that's all I think is we're just trying to say is this isn't this is something that should have been communicated.

Well, I also well, I also talked to Scott. Scott, please lean in on this cuz I made that statement before you came up and I asked why these could this have been addressed. I knew that we're not going to pay this out in 25. Whatever bills you have to pay, you're going to pay it in 206. So I asked him, could we have dealt with 25 issues with the 26 budget? And can you please give because I'm confused. I got a question right quick for you, please. I got quick question. I'm sorry. is because I'm a, you know, I'm just a friendly neighborhood DJ who temp decided to become a counselor. So I want to know is this normal? Is this process that we're doing tonight normal? Yeah.

Can you can you answer that? Is it is it normal for something like this to happen at the last minute? Well, so from a procedural standpoint, right, you're considering your additional appropriation for budget year 2025. Okay. Um, you need to accomplish that by December 31st with like two days left. That is correct. How many other cities are doing this? Why are we the only ones doing this? I can't speak for all other cities, but I do know that um you know, end of year appropriations are relatively typical um just in order to make sure that you reconcile appropriately. Okay. Can you answer the question? what time and what date varies, but end of year additional appropriations

um are more normal than not for local units of government across the state. Well, we done it what three four times in 10 years.

But couldn't you I quick question. Couldn't you project because she said that this was uh Terry said that this shortfall was accumulative over the entire year of 25. Could you not have seen that the trend that it was going where you could have gotten this appropriation say 1 of December or in November because you knew as per each month how much of a shortfall you were having and project for the end of the year. So we're not doing this two days before the end of the year.

Well, we would had already realized that the council was going to need an additional appropriation. So, we was just trying to make sure that we did them all at one time and not peacemailing it. I knew that was going to be the excuse. Okay. So, uh [laughter] No, because we knew in the beginning of the year, long before you came that we were going to have a shortfall and we were told by the previous controller that we could do the additional appropriation in July. July 1.

That's when it was going to We already knew this was going to happen. So then I requested through our council that we do the additional appropriation for the council earlier, not December the 29th. And I was asked to work with you all the administration. So here we are December 29th. Back on the administration, not on us on us. No, I I'm just saying you said you knew we needed it. No, y'all. Yeah. When I got here,

no, I it was my understanding that they expressed and said that the council would would need an additional appropriation. So, I said, "Okay." So, we it was the request that we do them all at one time. We weren't going to do one in September. I got here in August or do one in September, then do one in October or December. We didn't know that you needed more. We just knew about ours. We just knew. Yeah. Okay. what the council what you're saying [laughter] is council the the reason for the way that that process needs to work is by statute right so for cities in order for the appropriation to come forward it has to be upon the recommendation of the mayor which is why the president was directed to work with the administration because we can't bring up our own appropriations

right but I am want to go back to the other issue though that don't you didn't answer that we didn't get fully answer when I talked about how could we have handled this potentially in our budget process yeah I mean certainly to the extent that you have a shortfall that's anticipated for your next fiscal year, you should be budgeting for that. Um, but to the extent you would be able to get your appropriation complete within this current fiscal year, that's how you would address it. Shaking head then you start nodding head. So what's the confusion there? When you are adopting your 2026 budget, you are only adopting expendit expenditures that will be made in 2026. M

so to address a 2025 shortfall Mhm. or additional appropriation that is needed um would take an additional appropriation at some point in time for the current year.

You could have done it then or in November or December. I will say many communities because um typically um overtime is one of those areas that is harder to plan for. Um you could have a terrible winter storm in December and have large amounts of overtime for DPW. Those types of situations.

That's fair. they tend to wait till they have a better handle on what that dollar amount is uh to make that additional appropriation request towards the end of the year. But you can handle them and if it's the will of the council to do so in the future, you can handle them throughout the year. It's not the will of the council, it's the will of the mayor, right? Because appropriation. There we go. Let's get Yeah. But that becomes an issue where you can handle that on an ongoing basis throughout the year. You typically cannot do an additional appropriation before March

of any year because you are waiting until the Department of Local Government Finance closes out your prior year finances and you file your uh annual financial report by the end of uh February. Mhm. Once DLGF receives that, certifies that they've received it, then they would open up the window for the next year's additional appropriations. And when does that window normally open up or deappropriation after March? [clears throat] After March,

typically it would be open sometime in March. because it feels it just feels a little bit like we're rushed trying to make a decision tonight with like a few minutes left, you know, in the year, you know, and it it you saying that this is normal. Is that what we're saying? I will tell you that it is normal for communities at some point in time, but typically during that December time period

once they better understand largely uh overtime and any other additional contracts that are coming in, those types of things to know [clears throat] what those expenses are to make that additional uh appropriation request sometime during uh December. I don't think he's saying December 29th is a norm. Death mark. He's just saying sometime in December, which if it would have been noticed properly, we would have dealt with this two weeks ago. Two weeks ago. Right. Right. [snorts] Um

on the 19th. So, can we go to the Kim Cap line and can someone please explain what that is for? Uh, the the dollar amount and specifically what the request is for. That's for uh accumulation of like police and fire debt charges, debt and interest. And what's the amount? The 198. Yeah. Okay. The Oh, that was councelor Missou. And and that's for what specifically? Um I think it's just for bond um interest payments or debt payments.

So why would we have a shortfall with a bond payment? From my understanding, one of them was not included in the 2025 budget. [laughter] You know, it's not fair to you cuz you weren't right. You know what I mean? And and I feel I really feel bad for you. My heart goes out. That's okay. But I thought we had this conversation before. So it's been so many screwed up conversations. So maybe you can rewind. I'm sorry. That's okay. Also, when you speak of your debt service on your 1782 form, Mhm.

do you not or did you not include your debt service which would have been a part of the budget for 2025? I'm just asking did you and we included from my knowledge everything for 2026. Yes. So the debt 2025 for the debt interest and the debt principal interest that you have under administrative services those debts that is for um it energy savings. We're going to talk about that one too. Oh, did you just jump ahead to that one?

Yeah, we moved real fast. I was still trying to wrap my head around the the bond payment wasn't wasn't in the in the um in the deal. I was really literally still just trying to understand that. But now with the with the with the um energy savings right now. All right. But she just said this is a really sensitive one here. So um

and I think we had this conversation too. We did have a conversation on it, but when you walked out, I didn't I wasn't thoroughly just because we talked about it didn't mean my mind was full. I mean, still I sometimes had to go, but the payment wasn't made, right? The bond payment for the for for the energy savings was not made. Oh, we made it. It's why it's short. You Well, you're saying that the savings was short,

right? No. Who's saying yes or no? Cuz I'm hearing two mixed things. One person told me, and that's what I'm that's where it gets nasty because I made a call. I'll call Rob, we'll call perfection. We'll get this thing audited. They owe me money. They owe us money if we didn't make the increment. So, my thing is this. We There's few things that this council is in control of. That bond was the bond. That was our bond. It was our decision to have energy savings, right? That was our deal. Okay? and they had to sell that to us and we worked through that for over a year. Is there a guarantee that that you're supposed to get a certain amount of savings?

Guarantees the savings. And so if the savings did not occur, the perfection group owes us what? Come on up here because this is serious. Yeah, you are correct. Mhm. But that is separate from the payment of the bond obligation. That's why I'm asking is additional request here. But then the money that is the same though, right? Don't you post the the way it was sold us was you do the audit after the fact after you review that payment, you get that audit, you make that correction, but you still are responsible for

the obligation of appropriation of the bond payment. But where's the revenue? Uh, the revenue is actually out there for us to draw. Okay. I don't know what that means. That's a funny answer. Can you give me some more common answer? I'm didn't understand that. I'm just uh apparently we just didn't get it drawn out be or they didn't withdraw the money or request the money from the fund to uh reimburse us for the payments that we were making. Oh, so are you telling me? Let me put this in regular terms. No, the fund is there. We just have to draw them down. Why? So why are you asking me for uh No, this is expenses revenue. Okay.

This is for the bond payment. So are you saying that are you basically saying that the bond payment was not put in the budget in 2025 budget for energy savings just like it wasn't for police and fire? And I think your quote said that is correct. who um who who so it wasn't budgeted. Who's not? Okay. So, if it's not budgeted, okay, I get what you're saying. If it's not budgeted, even though the money's there, I can't pay it because it's not in the budget. No, the the debt service or the bond payment was not in the 2025. The revenue came into the bank account, but it wasn't. No, we actually have to draw that money.

They didn't they didn't go through the process to actually get the money yet. So, who who who did that? That was under the other guy. Who Who was that? Well, it's a it's an ongoing process. It's not a Oh, because the increment every month or quarter, we pay I think there's a payment that we make every month. Yes. Of the bond payment. I'm I'm more concerned right now. I'm questioning the revenue. Like I want to make sure that we're getting our savings to pay the bond. We will draw the revenue. The revenue is there. The revenue is there. They have not paid it. Okay. No one in the past or currently we have not pulled the revenue pulled the revenue to make

we haven't requested the dollars yet. We haven't gone through that process. So it's not fair cuz I heard a rumor I had a conversation with some administration folks that were questioning if the energy savings was a good deal. Was it making was it doing what it said it was supposed to do which was we did a bunch of renovations and it was supposed to pay for itself. And so I just want to make sure that that is what is occurring is that the work was done. The money's coming in to pay for itself. We just now have to go through the proper process to access the money to pay the bills. And actually it's not just paying for itself. It is saving us money.

Savings money for the future as well. But I'm saying that bond that we had to do all these repairs around because we did a lot of repairs in this building uh based off of the energy uh saving. So, I just wanted to make sure that that program is was was a good program. Okay. So, that that doesn't feel like we're taking money out of So, we're not taking money out of our reserves to pay to pay that. I think that's what's important too to be said like that money is not coming out of reserves. It just wasn't processed properly to access the fund to pay the bill. The bill wasn't paid. We're going to pay the bill. We'll get the money. that that's fair. I ask a question. President

all that if we aren't following the rules by paying our bills on that, are we still able to access that money? Yes, we we we do have access. We just actually submitted a report. Okay. And um the funds are there available for us to draw that in. So we're not messing up accessing that money? No. Okay. Good. Thank you. That's a good question, though. All right. Okay. Well, just a procedural thing, you know. Feel a lot better about that. And that's the biggest thing on here is the energy savings. Um, also real fast. All the numbers everybody's throwing around. I don't know if that's

Yes. Um, counselor must um Well, the 378 for the or for Yeah, for the energy savings. That's correct. um the 198 but like all these other numbers like none of those match that we're talking about here none of those are matching what I saw in Indie Star as published and I'm I'm very confused about the numbers what is the total that you are requesting I believe on the proposal it says 828,000

okay so just to maybe help clarify there right So I presume that the notice was published at a higher amount just to provide that authorization as the ordinance was being prepared and recommended um by the mayor. It might have been anticipated that the number would not exceed um or maybe get to that entire amount. But just to be safe, right, to get in the newspaper, that's why the higher number was published, right? Um but ultimately what governs the appropriation is whatever the council approves in your ordinance tonight. So, you are not um governed to um meet the number that was published in the notice. Um you make that determination in your ordinance. Right.

I got I do have another question. So, to pay this the bond payment, you're going to go get the 378,000 to pay the payment that comes out the general fund, right? Until you get until we get the money. Can you then replace the money with when we when we draw down the rest? Right. Then you can put it back in the general fund. How so? How do we know reserve? Yeah. General fund. So this will go back in the reserve. Right. Right. General fund reserve s. No. No. I think we're putting words in the controllers's mouth and we need you to tell us a it's admin. How much revenue do is available for us to draw down

for what? For energy savings. Um, I think it was something like 400. And don't quote me on this cuz this was two or three days ago, but uh it was sufficient enough to cover the bills. And and so wait a minute. So this [clears throat] not drawn that money down. No. [snorts] Ever. I believe it was drawn down sometime in February maybe. I'm not sure.

Okay. All right. So, if there is enough to draw down to cover the payment from you know internal processes and controls. this bond payment will be made when come out of what fund and will that fund be replenished? So those are the three questions. Well, when we draw down the funds, they will go back to the administrative funds to cover the bond payment. Yes. The payments that we have been making

and that's going to come out of the reserve fund. It will come out of the administrative services fund once we draw down those funds. Those funds will go to the administrative services fund. Not no where where are you getting the funds from? What source? I believe it's I forgot the name of um I forgot the name of the company or the grant that it's coming from, but it's a energy savings grant that you draw down from the feds. So, we're not going to make the payment until you draw down the money. We've actually already made payments.

There we go. So, you already made the payment. So, that didn't come out the the the It didn't come out the energy savings fund. It came out of our general fund. So, what we're trying to say is if you took $378,000 out the general fund and pay the bill and then you're going to go get the money, you're going to get your payment. Now, it sounds like you're saying that the the 400,000 is going to go into the administrative service fund to pay future payments and our general fund is now just out of $378,000. No, that's not how I Okay, that's what we want. That was her questions and that's what we wanted to get that clear. That's what

So, what's the what's the So, what is the proper answer? I'm wrong the way I said it. So, what's the right way? Well, it the administrative services funds just it does just show that it's in a deficit or those line items so to speak. And so once we draw those funds down, they will actually go into our revenue. Um the way the way we look at it because it's budgeted u with your expenses. So we don't combine we don't typically look at it and saying okay this revenue is offsetting these expenses because we're once we get our budget approved or adopted those those are the numbers that we adhere to as far as our budget is concerned and so yes those administrative fund is in that line item and it's just the debt principal interest line item it's short by 378.

So, bottom line is because someone didn't do I mean, I'm trying not to be rude here, but somebody didn't do what they were supposed to or else we wouldn't even have this request because the money would have been drawn down and the bond payment would have been made. And so, you're shaking your head. No. So, why why not? Cuz we're trying to understand why we are where we are now. These are two separate issues. What you're looking at here is the additional appropriation. Yes. Funds were not appropriated to make the bond payment.

It is not related to receipt of revenue uh into the appropriate fund or not. Okay. an appropriation needs to be made in order for the payment that is already to be made been made to not be in deficit at your year-end um financials. So that that I think I'm tracking with you 100%. But why why were we short $378,000 for a planned budgeted expense? I'm I'm just trying to understand

why don't we have the money? So I was not here in uh 2024 when the budget for 2025 was adopted. But when we looked at the budget for this year's expenditures for the rest of this year moving into next year's and creating the 2026 budget, we realized that there was not an appropriation for the energy services contract for 2025. So, okay. So, let me state what I already said earlier. It wasn't budgeted in 2025. It wasn't included and that's why we are where we are.

Okay. Thank you. Now separately the revenue that is sitting in the account will be receded in to balance to replenish those funds um for what you are appropriating. That's what I'm concerned about. And the administrative and that's the other thing I'm sitting there while you were talking. The administrative line item that's within the general fund, right? Or is it the own fund? Yes, it's administrative services fund, not the general fund. So, okay. Okay. So, there was money in the fund. No, the fund was never budgeted in 2025. It was not there. So, therefore,

that's why we don't they're asking for Mhm. an appropriation so that they can make the payment with the understanding that we will draw down that revenue and then refund the general fund. That's what I was saying. Refund the general fund. That we went full circle back around, but that make sure that you refund. So, if you if you put it back, you got to refund it because she said she already paid it, right? But if you put it back in the general fund, then it's not going back into the reserve fund. It's not going back in an administrative, right? Yeah. Well, the the general fund and the reserve fund are really the same thing, right? In a sense, they all they're attached to together.

I would think the reserve fund is the one that because if it's in a general fund, it's basically at your administration's disposal, is it not? It's not in a different bucket. Yeah. Okay. All righty, man. It's just always harder to go backwards, you know. Um, how do we how do we prevent this from happening again? How what how put it in you budget for it in the in your budget? You make sure you budget for all your debt service payments. You budget for everything. Okay. We got a new controller and made a new budget. Yes. Yes, we do. Yeah. All right.

Okay. Okay. Counselors, any other questions? Did we ever confirm the 102,000? So, what I've been able to confirm is as of December 3rd, we did have a number of 10147750, which is probably where that 102 came from. And then since that time, um, obviously we're not even through the month of December yet, so there probably been additional charges. So, at the end of the day, to the extent the council wants to build in that cushion in your additional appropriation to make sure you're covered, that's certainly for the rest of the year. That's only to the third. Oh, right. But it's back down to closer to what she said 102. That was the number. Well, no, because they still have to bill us for December. That's like

That included December. It included November and December. Was it 677,000, [snorts] right? But there are um additional charges. Um it was stated in the email that it was the current charges for certain matters as of December 3rd. So, okay. Um additional charges obviously could come throughout the month on those other matters. Okay. All right. Know that. So I feel a lot better about it. I do these changes before we vote or when we make the changes. So we need to make changes. We put the one for everyone.

I have a real quick question for the gentleman from the crow. You said you came in in 2024. No. So when when were you hired? Was 25. We were hired this past summer to work on the 2026 budget. You were hired in 2025. Correct. Okay. Sorry. and they u and I assume you are planning on continuing with this with the city administration through 2026. That's a decision of the administration. We certainly love to.

Well, I I I don't get to make that decision. Okay. So your your uh salary your your fees haven't been put into the 2026 budget then I take it there were fees put into the 2026 budget for financial advisory assistance. Yes. Okay. So and that would Okay. All right. Thank you. Okay. Did we go through every line? We pardon me. Did we hop through every line? Did we go through every

Yes, we did. Yeah. [snorts] Went through all of them. So, where we're at now, the public hearing is obviously still open. Um, ultimately that would need to be closed before your vote. Uh, to the extent changes do need to be made to the ordinance, we'll need to make those before the council vote. So, we do need to do a little bit of math. One thing that we do need to just confirm is that if the general fund number goes from 10200 to 13100, is the administration in agreement on that recommendation? I would have to confirm that. Okay. Can we get that confirmed soon? Today. Now. This evening. Guess we would have to. Yeah. [laughter]

Okay. So, we're going to take a Do we need a fivem minute recess? Yeah. 10 minute, please. 10 minutes. 10-minute recess. 10-minute recess. Thank you. 10-minute recess.

Yeah. Thank you. We will reconvene. Yeah. I think the question was, would the administration move forward with an additional appropriation of $131,000? And the answer is yes. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. So, we will change that language and the dollar amount. Okay. Mr. Rat, last public I take it that the public hearing is still open. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And with public hearing protocol that I've seen at city of Lawrence, I get to do a rebuttal. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Because there was one item that had not been addressed that I brought up. Okay. And that was the last Okay. You had three minutes. Pardon me. You have three minutes. Okay, that's about right for a rebuttal. Okay.

On the 17th December, notice public notice in the paper. I said that the notice did not have the words public hearing in that notice. So, the public did not know to show up tonight. So my contention is without the word public hearing in the public notice you didn't notify you did not follow proper procedures and I think it is a legal question that you're not allowed to vote on it because you didn't follow proper legal proceedings to have a public hearing. And that's my rebuttal.

Now you get a chance to rebuttal. Okay. Uh, can we ask that question? Attorney will respond. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. R. Thank you, Madam President, members of the council. So, the notice that was published specifically said that taxpayers appearing at the meeting shall have the right to be heard. Okay. I don't think he understood it. Well, he's he's asking to taxpayers of additional appropriations. That's all I caught on my screenshot. It just said notice. So it doesn't have to say special hearing or that is sufficient notice. So it is legal. It is legal. It is legal. Is it legal?

Thank you. Thank you attorney. Yes. I just want to make sure counselor that um madame president that for the council the 131 will cover all of the expenses expected for um 202 is it frost brown craft frost and brown okay okay yes ma'am thank you yes ma'am we'll make that change we're waiting for that total so that we can vote approp appropriately. 8:00.

All right. Madame President. Yes. Councelor Wells. I could I ask the gentleman from Crow to come back up to the podium because I'd like to get a clarification on something he had said earlier.

Uh, yes, sir. Would you please come to the podium? I just like to get a clarification on something you had said. Uh I want to make totally sure I understand this bond payment scenario. Um for the u that goes to the perfection group or Rex. I guess they've already been paid um because we have to pay the bond and it wasn't budgeted for 2025. Am I on track so far? Okay. And that because excuse [clears throat] me, their performance did not meet our expectations. Is that am I wrong or you

This has nothing to do with performance at all. It's a bond payment. This is strictly the bond payment and the appropriation to make the payment out of the appropriated line item. There was not an appropriation to correspond with the bond payment. But there is a refund coming back to the city because they did not meet obligation. Is that not right? That is not correct. That is not correct. That is not correct.

Okay. There is revenue that the t that the city has in the account that they are eligible to receipt into the funds of the city for for clarification if I may. Yes counselor the city has of that account and the revenue is the savings. Right. Right. So it performed so it did what it was supposed to do. We just didn't go get the money. M okay. Yeah.

All right. And so when this when [clears throat] this money comes back to the city, you had said that the money would go into the general fund but not into the reserve fund. And my understanding always has been that there's two different entities. There's a reserve fund and a general fund. And there's not they're all one in the same. That's what I was trying to say. They're all one and the same. Technical. Yeah,

your reserves are your balance, your cash balances within the fund after your expenditures for a given year that are in the fund and that is your cash balance at the end of the year that you carry forward into future. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I got your budget and your reserves and are totally separate, right? Okay. This is an additional appropriation only because it was not appropriated to be in accordance with state board of accounts standards which is not it's not a small cash is there right the reserves of the general fund are still there in

I wanted to make sure I understood all that and that's why I wanted it to be discussed in the budget process what I was saying about the budget was to make sure because our our issue was just in the budget we were very concerned that we were spending our reserves and we wanted to make sure that this appropriation wasn't drawing down further to those reserves that we're trying to protect. Yeah. And and for clarification, this specific one does not because there's a revenue source behind it. Yeah. The other one cap's got a revenue behind it there. No, that will come out of the reserves. It would come out of the reserve of capital development fund.

Right. But Kim Cap has But Kim Cap earns though because it's a tax, right? There is a tax rate. Yes. Right. To the to the to the So it has a reg there's a property tax levy for the Mhm.

I think what I would like to clarify is the $198,000 payment for debt services for police and fire that was not budgeted. Right. That 100 I'm looking at at that as $198,000 liability. It's a payment, a bond payment. Um, that payment is going to be made out of reserve funds. And how will how will it be replenished? The CUMCAP development fund will have a tax levy for next year. There are reserves within that fund currently, budgeted reserves within that fund currently and into the 2026 budget year.

So, we're going to be whole and there's going to be no deficit in that fund for 2026. That is the intent of this appropriation. That is correct. M

now the all funds as you know the budget that was passed for 2026 will draw down on your reserve balances exactly to include the 198,000 but that is included within that. Yes. Okay. That's different. But thank you. Because they [laughter] spent all the QCAP money. That is not. No. No. There are still reserves in QAP. There's reserves. Yes. Yes. But it's still $200,000 short to its liability. I guess

it is $200. So the payment from a cash basis it does not impact the cash balance today of the fund. It is the appropriated balance that is impacted really bad because these funds had not been appropriated to make yes that appropriate debt service payment. Yes. Right. So it does not impact the cash reserve balance at the end of the year. Yep. Okay. Thank you. This year or end of 26 20 2025 25. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. All right.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much. Um, there has been a change in proposal number 12, 2025. The new request will be a total of $857,000 with the increase in the general fund to $131,000. Okay. Okay. We will now make a motion to accept the amended version. You can, but you haven't vote on anything yet. You can accept by motion if you like. Okay. Go ahead. Okay. Want to make a motion to

to accept the Yeah. the amended version of proposal number 12, 2022. I'll second changing the amount from 82 828 828 to 857 857,000 and the 102 to and the 102,000 to 131,000. So this is just a vote on the amendment only and then you'll take a vote on the proposal. Yes. Yes. Okay. A motion. Motion [clears throat] made. Second. Nothing's working. Yeah, it's not. Mine's not working. You can do a voice. Okay. Second. Yeah. Okay.

Motion made by Motion was made by Councelor Chavis. And seconded by Carlos Carlos Jennings. Thank you guys. Now we'll take a a vote for all. We can't use the machine. We have to do it individually. Councelor JS I. Councelor Wells. I councelor Chavis. Hi, Councelor Robinson. I councelor Jennings. Hi, Councelor Freeman. I councelor Cone, I councelor Msour, I. It passed. Thank you guys.

Public hearing is now closed. And now we will take a vote. I'll take I'd like to make a motion to approve proposal number 12 2025. I'll second it. Thank you, councilors. And then we'll do an individual vote. Councelor Jou, yes. Councelor Wells, yes. Councelor Jo and Chavis, yes. Councelor Robinson, yes. Councelor Jennings, hi. Councelor Freeman, yes. Councelor Cone, I. Councelor Msour. Yes.

Thank you, counselors. Thank you so much, everyone. [laughter] Now, we're going to do a a little brief presentation. It's going to touch my heart. There might be some tearjerking here, and several people would like to do a presentation to um Councelor Chavis, who's leaving us. My my my I I'm telling you, this is my presentation to councelor uh Chavis. I have known you for several years. As a counselor, you have worked for the citizens of Lawrence, being honest and truthful. You have challenged this administration and prior administrations to get the job done and to bring truth to light. Your integrity, your honesty, and your loyalty has never been questioned. Your election numbers have always shown you to be the number one counselor in Lawrence and your knowledge and understanding have shown your ability to rise to another level. This was a conversation we had after your first election. Whatever your future plans are, I wish you the best and I hope to see you again on the polit political campaign trail. To this I will say to you, I will miss you and I will continue to be and will you continue to be that fire that won't stop. A thank you. [applause] Thank you. That's so sweet.

Council, thank you councelor Chavis for your 10 years of service to the common council of the city of Lawrence. Thank you for speaking truth to power, diagnosing and determining solutions to thorny issues, and always fighting for your constituents. We will also miss your contagious laugh. Best wishes as you start this exciting new stage of your life. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Counselor Cro.

I don't have anything prepared. I'm more off the cuff, but and I've only known you a couple years, but thank you. I've learned so much from you. I've I feel like I've done so much more sitting and listening here than I have in anything else in my life. But it's a huge learning curve and you know, considering everybody's perspectives on things is humbling and and I just learn so much and I've learned so much from you and your grace. I couldn't possibly ever have. But thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'm going to miss you. Thank you. Yes. Thanks. Mayor,

Lisa, [clears throat] can you stand, please? Yes. I better take my coat off since I don't want to look like I'm running out. [laughter]

First of all, I want to say thank you um to the council for this evening. It's always good to have great conversation to get to the end project. So, thank you for the work you're due diligent in the year that you've put in. Tonight, I want to take a few minutes to pause. Lisa, do you remember the day that you came to my house when you heard that I was going to run for council at large and you said, "Let's run together as a team." And we developed a friendship. I want to say thank you for that because your guidance, your love for the city of Lawrence, your understanding where the city needs to go and all the work that you put in. I want to talk to you about what I what we have designed. We did a proclamation for you tonight. Oh, thank you.

I want to take a few minutes just to say and pause for the recognition and the time spent that this young lady has done over this last decade and she didn't do it alone because you had partners, you know. So, we're pausing to rec recognize and thank you, Council Lisa Chavis, for your years of dedication and service to the city. So, the proclamation reads as honoring council Lisa Chavis for her years to of dedicated service. I'm going to try to get through this without tears. Mesa, whereas council Lisa Chavis has served with distinction for the past decade as a member of the Lawrence City Council, first being elected in 2015 and reelected in 2019 and 2023, demonstrating unwavering commitment to our citizens. And whereas during her tenure, Council Chavis consistently demonstrated a collaborative spirit and a steadfast commitment to put Lawrence first. And whereas her leadership helped guide the city through a period of significant growth and progress. And whereas she is widely respected for her thoughtful approach and dedication to public service. an whereas she was voted by her peers to serve as council vice president in the year of 2016 and later as council president in January of 2018 making history as the first African-American women to

hold the position of council president in the city of Lawrence whereas council Lisa Chavis also served our nation as a member of the military and as a proud mother of two children. And now therefore, be it proclaim that I, Deborah Whitfield, mayor of the city of Lawrence, on behalf of the city council and the residents of Lawrence, do hereby extend and express our deepest gratitude to Council Lisa Chavis for her 10 years of dedicated service to the people of the city of Lawrence, her leadership, trailblazing achievement, and commitment to the community have left a lasting impact and we thank you for all what you have done to help move Lawrence forward. In testimony whereof, I have here unto set my hands and cause to be affixed the seal of the city of Lawrence on this 29th day of December in the year of 2025. Mary Deb Whitfield [applause]

[applause]

Okay. Did you want to say something? No. I mean, I'm going to let the mayor close it out. Lisa knows Yeah. how I feel about her. Okay. [laughter] Thank you. Thank you, mayor. Thank you, mayor. Well, uh that will adjourn this meeting. Thank you all everyone.