Historic Preservation Board - Regular Meeting

They waited to give you that.

He said, you know, we went to the ER and he said, you know, well, it can't be a gallstone. Somebody said it was a gallstone. Anybody was happy because I had my gallbladder out. Right. And then the ER nurse is saying, that doesn't mean you can't.

Okay, ciao.

All right, good evening. Today is Wednesday, January 21st, and it is our first Historic Preservation Board meeting of the year. Call to order.

MS. Mrs. Correa? Ms. Healy?

Here.

Mr. Sade? Here. Mr. Serrano?

Present.

Okay, we have quorum. Okay, we have quorum.

For the record, Ms. Bonazzucci will be calling in via telephone.

Correct.

I'm here.

Great. All right. So, order of business, any changes, or we'll continue with the agenda?

GOOD EVENING, MADAM CHAIR AND MEMBERS OF THE BOARD. MY NAME IS WARREN BITTNER AT 287 NORTHEAST 96th STREET AND WITH ME IS MY ROOFING CONTRACTOR, DANIEL ARGUILAS. We came to discuss a little snag that came in on the building permit to re-roof just before the meeting. Dan and I had a brief discussion the Planning and Zoning Director, Eddie Nunez, and we reached an agreement to resolve the matter, but I wanted to put the issue and the resolution on the record before you, if that's okay. Sure. Dan, Mr. Aguelas, submitted an application for a building permit on the 12th of this month.

Can you hand these out to each member of the board?

I'm handing out to you the front page of the building permit application. Highlighted on the face of the application is a description of the work that we're proposing to do. And that reads removal and replacement of clay barrel roofing with historically accurate antique Cuban and artisanal handmade barrel tile to emulate original 1920s roof. Now today, at 3 o'clock, I got notice from the village that this application was insufficient and had to be resubmitted. And the issues with it concerned only the planning and zoning department. I'm going to hand out to you the comments of Mr. Nunez. And Dan, I need you to bring one of those back to me, please. There are two comments. The first comment, no, not to the clerk. Thank you. is the Historic Preservation Board Certificate of Appropriateness, or COA approval, for the re-roofing indicated three potential roofing alternatives to be selected by the owner. Hybrid roofing, which we're not doing. Hybrid roofing is a combination of a metal pan and a clay tile on top. We're not doing that. Total traditional artisanos, we're not doing that either. Or antique Cuban tile. Now, this application was very clearly on its face, indicated that we were going to use a combination of antique Cuban tile, and we're going to use those on the caps, and a percentage. And the remaining caps are going to be artesano, and the pans will be artesano. We're not going to waste Cuban tile on a pan. So it was our position, and I believe that Mr. Nunez agrees now, that the face of the permit application satisfied comment number one. Is that true, Mr. Nunez? Yes. Yes. Okay. Now, comment number two. So comment number one has been taken care of. Comment number two. The Historic Preservation Board Certificate of Appropriate Approval Exhibit also contained an artisanal roof material brochure with the preferred roofing options. At resubmittal, provide a color-scanned copy of the roofing material brochure and highlight the selected roofing material for the tile. Now, when we came before the board, we passed out. the complete Artesanos brochure, which showed all the various tile that Artesanos manufactured. And we put a little asterisk next to the ones that we were discussing in the application. We have settled for the handmade Artesanos barrel tile to be both A percentage of the caps and all of the pants. It's the more expensive option and I believe my agreement with mr. Nunez is that if we submit this again It's already in the agenda package that he will sign off on the Permit and satisfy his comments. Is that correct? Mr. Nunez? Yes. Okay. Great. Okay. So we have a deal and everything has been resolved. Thank you so much. Wonderful.

Well, thank you for setting that for the record. And, yeah, good luck with your project.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

All right. Any further public comments?

You want to wait to the agenda. That is the agenda.

Public comments is more general in nature.

If you're not on the agenda, yes. Okay, thank you. Okay, great. Wonderful.

All righty, so we have copies of the minutes. Ask for approval of the minutes.

I move to approve the minutes of the last meeting.

Did you have a comment? Or do you have an issue? No, not an issue, just a...

Go ahead, Paola.

This is in regards to the demolition of 1080 .

has somebody, because I just saw that the house is actually going pretty quickly up.

So I was just wondering, is that very difficult?

Yes, this house is going up very, very quickly. It's on my daily walk. It's the home that was... Yeah, I mean, where are you looking at?

Oh, page four. Okay.

So the plans, supposedly the plans match the existing, the original proportions of the house, of what they demolished. So the question is, have somebody in the building department or...

Well, with the additional approved additions, because there were additions to the house that were approved prior to the demolition, so it won't be the exact proportion of the original house. It's going to be bigger. Yeah, but the facade...

Right, right, correct. Yeah. If they would have had to resubmit plans for the park that has to be reconstructed.

So I'm going to assume that if they're working on that portion of the structure, that they have a permit to do so, which means that the plans were submitted and reviewed by village staff. So I would assume that that portion of it was reviewed and that it checked out. Now, as far as the inspections, that's done by building permit staff. So that I wouldn't be able to answer.

So this is something we will discuss after, but given this is a very specific situation, not a typical one, and I know that usually the building reviewers, they only go and check if the beam is correct. It's more of a technical situation than aesthetic, but given the I don't know if this is a motion that we do after. Yeah, it would have to be Ismael. Request one of his reviewers or building officials,

Is there any language or text that was found in the minutes that needs to be edited or modified?

I don't think so. It sounds like this is a question from the minutes.

Okay, I move to accept the minutes of the last meeting.

Do I hear a second?

No, I'm in favor.

Okay, all in favor? Aye. All right, so we can move forward with action item 6A, which is a certificate of appropriateness for the library.

I'll introduce the item. The applicant Mammie Shores Village is requesting a certificate of appropriateness from the board for the installation of a new exterior wall sign for the Brockway Memorial Library. The property is located at 10021 Northeast 2nd Avenue, was built in 1948, and received Miami Shores Village Local Historic Designation in 2023. It's situated on approximately 31,150 square feet, and the library contains about 12,260 square feet of building area. It's designed by architect Edwin T. Reeder. The library is a notable example of mid-century modern architecture reflecting his modern tropical Florida style was recognized as an outstanding example of modern Florida architecture at the time of its opening. The long, low, single-story limestone, coral, and brick structure blends with the surrounding residential neighborhood and retains its original exterior features. Interior highlights include a light-filled great room with wood-beam ceilings, paneled alcoves, and three coral-limestone fireplaces. The applicant at this point in time is proposing to install a new exterior wall sign reading Brockway Memorial Library on the south facing facade of the building. And it's meant to serve as its building identification. An existing entrance sign with similar identification is currently located on the west side of the building. The wall signs, material, and dimension for consideration are the following, about 50 inches wide by 28 inches tall, which results in about 9.7 total square feet, and it's 6-inch aluminum black-painted dimensional letters. And with that, staff is recommending approval, and we have the director of the library here should you have any questions or comments. Thank you.

Thank you, Eddie. Thank you, Michelle. I reviewed everything partially immediately. It seems like a great idea. It would look really nice to have that signage on that side. Any other comments?

Well, I like that you pretty much replicated the type, too, which is great, which is really, really consistent. It's going to be good. Thank you.

Beautiful.

Yes, thank you for...

And I would say that the scale is done tastefully as well.

Excellent. All right. If we don't have any further questions, we have a motion for approval.

I'll move to approve the proposal for the Sinai Calgary Memorial Library. And I second that.

Second. All in favor?

of the certificate of appropriateness. Thank you very much. Thank you, Michelle. Do you need this?

No, I'll stand there and provide it.

Bye, Michelle.

Thank you.

Okay, next item. Item 7A. Did Patricia have any comments?

All right. The applicant, Mr. Jason Angrist, owner and representative of Taylor Grant of Maverick Equity Partners LLC, is requesting a certificate of appropriateness from the board for proposed exterior renovations and modifications to the property located at 515 Northeast 101 Street. The scope of work includes repairs to the existing exterior finishes such as stucco exterior paint, replacement of roofing material, and removal of exterior chimney vents as part of a comprehensive exterior improvement project. The subject property was originally designed as a two-story old Spanish Mediterranean revival residence constructed in 1925 during the peak of Miami Shore's initial subdivision and development by Shoreland Company. The property was designated a local historic resource by the village in 1983. It's comprised of approximately 1,851 square feet of interior space and it sits on a 5,750 square foot lot. The residence embodies architectural characteristics that were promoted in the 1920s as part of Miami Shore's planned Mediterranean-inspired community, which included arched openings, decorative window elements, wood flooring, and an emphasis on natural light. The applicant is proposing to modify the following list of exterior features on the existing two-story home. Number one, repair and refinish the original stucco with blue bonded and apply new textured stucco. Exterior paint color proposing Sherwin-Williams crisp linen selected to match the original facade color. Removal of 26 of the 30 chimney vents. The applicant states that these non-functional vents were removed and properly patched and sealed while four original vents will be retained replacement of all existing roof coverings the applicant proposes to install a concrete roof tile system consistent with the character of the home replacement of the front door with a hurricane impact rated front door assembly removal of awnings above front door second floor balcony and garage area Furthermore, the applicant has indicated that planters affixed to the structure, including the second floor terrace planter, will remain in place as the intent is to repair, restore, and preserve these elements. Additionally, the arched stained glass windows located in the first floor lobby will also remain intact and be preserved. Lastly, it was recently determined that the garage was in the process of being converted into a den. The applicant has not applied for or obtained approval from the Planning and Zoning Board for this conversion pursuant to Village Code Section 411. And accordingly, the proposed den area is not included within the scope of work of this request and therefore will require a future Certificate of Appropriateness review by the Historic Preservation Board as well as the Planning and Zoning Board approval. With that, staff is recommending the board consider the applicant's request, and they are here should you have any comments or questions. Thank you.

Thank you. So Eddie did send us a lot of background information about this. So I think everyone has had time to read the information to update ourselves. AND WE CAN BEGIN A DISCUSSION ON THIS.

DO YOU WANT TO GIVE THE APPLICANT?

WOULD YOU LIKE TO?

YES. HOLD ON.

THE APPLICANT IS GOING TO SPEAK. HE'S GOING TO THE PODIUM RIGHT NOW.

THANK YOU.

GOOD EVENING, CHAIR AND MEMBERS OF THE BOARD. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME THIS I'm here with Jose Avello, the GC for the project as well. My name is Jason Angrist. I am the owner's representative for Mr. Taylor Grant, owner of the property located at 515 Northeast 101st Street. I'm here this evening regarding exterior work that has been completed as well as additional exterior improvements for which we are seeking the board's approval. The items before you include both retroactive review of completed work and requests for approval of remaining exterior elements. The primary completed scope involved the removal of deteriorated stucco and its replacement with a traditional cementitious stucco system. This work was undertaken to address documented deterioration, protect the structure, and maintain the long-term integrity of the home. FOR THE BOARD'S REFERENCE, THE INSPECTION REPORT DETAILING THE STUCCO DEFICIENCIES IS INCLUDED IN YOUR PACKAGES. AS PART OF THIS PROCESS, SEVERAL CHIMNEY VENTS THAT WERE ORIGINAL TO THE HOME WERE REMOVED. THESE VENTS WERE REDUNDANT, NO LONGER FUNCTIONALLY NECESSARY, AND MANY WERE IN POOR CONDITION. THE REMOVAL WAS INTENDED TO SIMPLIFY THE EXTERIOR WHILE IMPROVING DURABILITY WITHOUT ALTERING THE HOME'S MASSING, ROOF LINES OR ARCHITECTURAL We fully recognize the importance of original architectural elements and welcome the board's guidance should restoration or an alternative treatment be recommended. We are also requesting approval of the final stucco finish which utilizes a subtle traditional texture selected to maintain consistent with historic character of Miami Shores and to avoid a modern or high contrast appearance. The paint color, crisp linen, was chosen deliberately as a soft, neutral tone intended to closely resemble the prior finish and remain compatible with surrounding historic homes. Additional items before the board include replacement of a non-impact rated front door with a hurricane impact door as a safety and resilience upgrade while maintaining appropriate scale and appearance. The removal of existing awnings with the understanding that we are open to reinstalling new awnings if preferred by the Board. And the replacement of the roof which is being approached as a like for like update in form and profile as the existing roof had reached the end of its service life based on inspection findings. I want to clearly acknowledge that this exterior work should have been presented to the Board prior to execution. This was our first project in Miami Shores and our first home subject to historic review. While that context does not excuse the procedural misstep, I take responsibility for it. Moving forward, I am fully committed to working closely with staff and the Board to ensure that all exterior work is reviewed and approved in advance. Our objective throughout this project has been preservation-minded maintenance. improving safety, longevity, and performance while ensuring the home continues to contribute positively to the historic fabric of the neighborhood. While we missed the mark procedurally, I believe our underlying goals of preservation, stewardship, and community enhancement are fully aligned with those of the board. Thank you for your time and consideration.

Can we ask questions now?

Do you want us to stay up here?

Yeah, if you could. Jeffrey has some questions. So the coat that's on the, you know, you got rid of the stucco, and there is some kind of coat on there now. Is that like a scratch coat, and then you're going to put stucco on top of it?

The final stucco finish is on it already and has been painted.

Oh, the house is painted. Okay. Did you consider replicating that stucco?

Here are some samples of these stucco. Sure. Excuse me.

Yeah, the color looks lovely. Yeah, the color is great.

That is... Did you consider, like, replicating the original stucco if you had to take it off for, you said there were issues with it?

Yeah, it's an old English textured stucco. Yeah. Okay. It wasn't really a consideration because for homes like this, we're seeing a lot of textured, thin lines rather than these kind of stucco system that has a lot of movement and rough textures. In addition to the fact that there was discoloration, mildew, and cracking on the existing stucco, that's why we went with kind of a textured stucco that mimics the appearance of a historical Spanish Mediterranean.

Have you considered – have you – so you haven't looked into what it would take to replicate the original stucco?

MR.

And the front door, is the door right now, is it, because that looks like the original door that's on there right now. We believe that's the original door, correct, yeah. Is it structurally not sound, or is there a problem with the door, or do you want a hurricane impact one?

Have you found any issues with the front door?

The front door right now, I don't present any issue, but it's old. I have some details.

it's operable it locks and everything it's just a non-impact door okay yeah correct it's an arch door and but probably is also in good condition because it's solid wood or is not solid wood

I'm sure it's solid wood.

Yeah.

So it's very repairable.

Yeah, it can be repaired.

Could it be restored?

Of course, if it's solid wood, I mean, it would have to be.

Yeah, we're open to restoring the door. At the end of the day, it's just a non-impact door. So for the future owners of, you know, people that are living there, you know, for safety reasons and, you know, so forth, they would like a hurricane impact door.

Okay.

Madam Chair, if I may?

Yes, Patricia, can you say a few words and make sure we can hear you?

Yes. Before asking some questions to the applicant, I would like to ask Eddie. Eddie, did you inform the applicants of the requirement to get a certificate of appropriateness?

Because he stated that it's his first project, which means that nobody has accepted.

How are the procedures to make these kind of work?

To answer your question, yes. The inquiries that have been made to our office regarding this property has always resulted in us informing any inquiry that the property is of historically designated and will require board review for any sort of exterior enhancements.

SO EVEN THOUGH YOU RECOMMENDED FOUR TIMES THAT THEY HAVE TO REQUIRE A CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS, THE APPLICANT, AND CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, CONTINUED TO DO ALL THESE RENOVATIONS UNILATERALLY?

I SUPPOSE YOU'RE CORRECT.

I mean, the applicant, Patricio, the applicant already stated today that he had done that without following the procedure. So he's acknowledged that.

It was a shame of my contractor.

Contractor has nothing to do with this.

No, no, but I think I'm saying that.

I have a thing, please. Everyone has the right to share their thoughts. And I already reviewed the application. And... First of all, the applicant said that the stucco was damaged and it was in need to be changed. And just for general information, we have 122 historic homes. And in Miami, we have 15 hurricanes and five major hurricanes and none of them

Yes, it's in your package.

It's in the package. Yeah. complicated exactly how the original architect did that's that's how it works with designated homes so with that being said for my point of view the original stock will need to be redone and even a continue with the chimney vents not only the vents were sealed also the cigarette form I MISSED THAT LAST PART.

THE CHIMNEY HAD NOT JUST THE VENTS ON IT BUT THERE WAS AN ARCHITECTURAL FEATURE OF SOME SIGARETTES. IT LOOKS LIKE THOSE WERE REMOVED AS WELL AND IT WAS BASICALLY SMOOTHED OUT. THOSE SIGARETTES WERE ELIMINATED.

NOW IT'S JUST SMOOTHED.

And so what Ms. Bonaduce is pointing out is that that was an architectural element. Okay. And that should not have been modified. Got it. Understood.

Yes. And to finish my idea, please, Eddie, verify if they want to install a concrete roof tile because that's not consistent with the architectural character of the residence.

I think we can bring one that we removed from the house. I think it was similar, like this one. No, that's clay. This is concrete. No, no. This one is concrete.

No, it cannot be. 1920s, it cannot be.

Yeah, it should be clay.

That's not approved.

No, the permit for the roof, it was on hold.

Yeah, we can do clay tile. That's totally fine. No.

Okay, two more items.

Just to be clear, one sec, Patricia, hold on one second. Just to be clear on that, the preference would be for clear, for barrel tile, clay barrel tile. Yes. Right, just so that, because there is S tile, which is not, you know, original houses didn't have that. So it would be barrel tile would be the best. Yeah, yeah, so it'll be a clay version of that. What's that, Patricia?

The letter says concrete roof tile.

Yes, he brought an example of a concrete roof tile, but he said they're willing to do the clay.

Yes, that would be the original character. Okay, the last two items, the front door, I don't have any problem to have it mimic exactly for a hurricane impact, but it has to be exactly the same style. And finally, I strongly recommend to keep the awnings. That house had one of the features, original features of the 1920s house was those awnings. And remove them would modernize too much that house. Those were my inputs.

Can I say something? Okay. Thank you, Patricia, for your comments. I am aligned with a lot of the ones that you said, so I'm not going to repeat just to make the process go a little faster. But I have a question. You mentioned that the report of the stucco is here. I couldn't find it.

Can you tell me where it is? The inspection report?

Yeah, in the inspection report, I went through it, but I couldn't find it.

It should be towards the back of the packet.

I see something there noting about events and like, but not really that there was a... There should be illustrations of cracks, stucco, discoloration, and we'll do... Discoloration looks like it's a discoloration of the paint or something, but not... I don't find it. If maybe you guys can point it out at the end, that would be fine. Okay. I see some, yeah, it's mostly the coloration, but that even looks like it's some rust probably from the sprinklers or from the paint that never got painted again or something like that. Well, in any event, Mr., sorry, I lost that page.

I think there's a comment number 11 is talking about that. MS.

Page 11? MR.

It's page 18, comment number 11.

Yeah, I was looking at that comment.

DISCOLORATION OF MILDEW ESTIMATED TO BE DUE TO HEAVILY VEGETATIVE EXTERIOR ATMOSPHERE AND ELEVATED LEVELS OF PRECIPITATION AND HUMIDITY OUTSIDE. NO INDICATION OF WATER DAMAGE.

BUT IT SAYS NO INDICATION OF WATER DAMAGE, MOISTURE INSTRUCTIONS. SO IT'S BASICALLY THAT THERE WAS A DISCOLORATION ON THE STOCKHOUSE.

AND CRACKING AS WELL.

IT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE CRACKING.

IT DOESN'T SHOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE CRACKING.

Yeah, but that's just a little wall that can be replaced.

When we do the walkthrough on the house with the installation, also you can see from inside all the crackings on the window and all that stuff.

Yeah, but inside is different and the cracking in the window is different. OKAY. SO MR. ANGRIS, I APPRECIATE A LOT YOUR ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT THIS WAS A MISTAKE, THAT CONTINUING WITH THE WORK WAS A MISTAKE. JUST FOR GENERAL KNOWLEDGE THAT I THINK THAT EVERY CONTRACTOR OR REPRESENTATIVE KNOWS, Work all around Miami, unless you're going on a neighborhood that nobody cares, has to go through permits. And this is a historic neighborhood. Every owner in this village is very proud of what we have and what we have been able to keep because these homes are unique. They're unique in style. Like you see, we're not in a tiki-taki home neighborhood. Every house has a character. Every house tells a story. And I could say that more than 80, 90% of the owners are very proud of this. So our comments, unfortunately, at least on my end, are not going to be favorable to any of your renovations. Not because it's something against you, the owner, or the contractor. It's just because this neighborhood is what we have and we're proud and we want to maintain it. And we want to maintain that historical character. Ms. Bonaduce mentioned we have 126 historic homes. We have more than that that are historic significant. And we have been working very hard so that we can maintain it. And this one happens to be one of the historic ones. This happens to be one of the ones that an owner at one point in time Decided that it was worth so much to maintain it. So changing the angle of the chimney covering the holes Changing the stucco is something that unfortunately will not fly and will not fly because It has a history and a significance so I Just not to go over the same thing that Patricia mentioned, but every single aspect of this home should be brought back. The door, unless it's rotting and you can present a document from a certified person that is rotting, should be fixed, especially if it's solid wood. I can understand if you buy a home in the 1980s. Man, in 20 years, you're going to have a door. But this is not the case. The windows have to be exactly the same. The awnings, everything else, it's not just changing it because we want to change it. IT SHOULD BE BROUGHT BACK HOW IT WAS AND WE HAVE ENOUGH DOCUMENTATION AND WE'RE HERE TO HELP YOU AND GUIDE YOU FOR ANY CHANGE THAT, FOR ANY QUESTIONS OR, YOU KNOW, THAT'S OUR, THAT'S PART OF WHAT WE DO AND WE WANT TO HELP. BUT IT DOES NEED TO GO BACK. AND IN TERMS OF THE ROOFING MATERIAL, I think you heard the previous owner. He actually was part of our board for many years, and even Eddie had comments on his. He knows that he has the best heart on his home. His home is also designated, of course, and even Eddie had comments for him. And that's why he came to us. So that's a good example. I don't know if you took notes of what he was showing, but that's a good example for the type of roofing material. And he has done a lot of research on that, so that will be something that if you want to ask, I think Eddie can give you some information to help you in this process. That's it.

Okay. So I would just like to make a couple of comments. I mean, I think I agree with everything you said. On the door, I can understand if the owners want a hurricane impact door. But I would think that you would need to replicate that, the existing one, as much as possible, which I think you can do.

You can do. Yeah. I've done arched impact doors before. They're extremely, extremely costly.

It is costly.

Yeah. We had proposed a rectangular impact door, and I clearly know that that's not going to happen.

He's going to be better off keeping the same door that has gone through

Yeah, you might be better.

How many hurricanes have not gone anywhere? And again, if it was like a door made in the 80s, you know, yeah, there's more concern with safety and those type of things.

I have a suggestion. So like my house is from 1920s and I kept the original door. I did hurricane windows and stuff like that and just treated the door as much as I could and kept it. So there's some stuff that they – there's an anchor that they sell. If somebody is worried about a hurricane, that backs up from the back of it. It's this anchor that anchors to the floor and back. And you only put it up if there's going to be a hurricane or whatever to keep the door from coming in in the wind. So I can send you something about that if you want. And that way you can keep it. That was the solution.

It's not an issue with any of the insurance or anything.

Right. Yeah. The insurance doesn't know. I don't know about the insurance.

But I use my home has historic windows too. And I use the shutters that are the fabric shutters.

Well, just to be clear, these windows are not original. They're all impact windows already. They're not original.

No, what I mean is I was just mentioning because of the shutters that we have are fabric and they're approved, so you don't have any problems with insurance.

Just two questions regarding the door. One, the actual hardware, like the hinges and the door handle, are we able to replace those? And we will send you what we're thinking in terms of alternatives to what's currently existing.

Well, actually, regarding what to present, I know you wrote an extensive information about what you guys have done, but when you come back, we need plans, we need pictures, elevations, we need specs for the roof, for the handles, for everything, because... It's not just that you're going to go ahead and redo without, we need to see what you're going to do, the final roof tile that you're going to put in. So this needs to come back to us and we will have to review it because right now we're going out of what was done wrong. Now let's go off of what is going to be the right thing to do.

Understood. And so is it clear to you that what the board is saying is that you'll have to put back some of the architectural details that were taken out? Yeah, absolutely. And restore the stucco. Yeah, so restore the stucco back to that old English textured stucco. Bring back 26 of the chimney vents and then those trim.

And then we can replicate the awnings, those maroon awnings. Mm-hmm. My one question about that was that there was a big awning in the back of the house that covered, it was like a kind of a carport situation. Would we need to put that back or? I personally wouldn't think that's important.

Which is the one in the back? You don't have it here in the pictures, right?

No, it was removed a while ago. It might be there.

No, the front.

I don't think you'd have to. The front. Okay. Yeah. And then in terms of the front door paint color, would it have to be the same color as currently? We can't dictate color.

Paint is now, even on historic homes, not. We can't dictate the color on that.

Oh, okay. That's good to know. It's a nice color, though. You want to replicate it.

You want to submit it.

Okay.

It will look really nice. I mean, keeping it, I don't know what the owner wants, but keeping it with this tone will look really nice.

Yeah, we were just thinking maybe like a little bit darker than that. Yeah. And then doing the same thing with the planters, so there's some contrast with the planters as well.

Planters.

Well, if you do another project in the Shores, you will now know that if you've got a historic house, you don't want to touch the outside without coming before. Absolutely. And also for the roof. It's a learning experience for you.

Also for anything that you do, the roof, even if it's not a historic home. Yeah, of course.

We have other projects going on.

You've got to get permits.

Everything's always permitted. This is just our first. The permit is submittable. Yeah.

Yeah, and it's still going to be on hold until we see the information.

Daniel, do you have any additional questions?

Just as was mentioned, we are primarily interested, because this is a historic home, we're interested in the facade and what can be seen from the street. Your question about the awning in the back, thank you for asking and clarifying. That is not something that we're so interested in, but door hardware, architectural details of the roof line, the chimney, all that has been repeated now is what we're concerned with.

Okay. AND EVENTUALLY WE'LL GET TO LANDSCAPING, BUT, YOU KNOW, OUR INTENT HERE WAS TO INSTALL CLUSIA IN THE PERIMETER OF THE PROPERTY. SO WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO THAT POINT YET, BUT WE JUST WANTED TO UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, IF THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S DOABLE AND WHAT THE PROCESS OF.

IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT'S SUBJECT TO OUR APPROVAL.

SO LANDSCAPE IS COMPLETELY. I JUST WANTED TO.

Landscape, depending on how much. Because I think that's also a planning and zoning purview that's different. Just FYI, there's a zoning code that does not allow you to put big clutches in your front. The fronts have to be always open. No fences, no clutches, unless it's something three feet or below. So that's just FYI, you know.

Is that really the case? I thought it was walls had to be three feet or below. No, vegetation too. Vegetation also.

No, vegetation too.

Especially in the front.

Really?

Yeah, in the front. Unless you are in a busy road like, you know, Biscayne Boulevard or, yeah, that's a different, there's a different, but in his case, no.

Okay. Oh, okay.

Or if you're going to cut any trees, you also need a permit. Yeah, so if you're going to cut a tree or something, you cannot just go ahead and cut it. You're going to have the neighbors coming. Again, because we have, that's another thing, the vegetation in the neighborhood is also very important.

Right, correct.

Eddie, I think you mentioned something about the garage.

Yeah, so it wasn't originally identified, but during the course of our conversations and exchanges with the applicant, staff coordinated an actual inspection where we were able to walk the property and actually go inside, and that's when it was brought to our attention that the den was being, it was previously a garage, and it was being retrofitted to serve as a den. I don't believe the door still has the original garage doors, but what's happening on the inside is obviously being renovated. So that's why that is not before you. It's not part of the package because that aspect has to go through the planning and zoning board.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. There's no planning and zoning part.

That's a planning and zoning board.

I mean, the process would still, once filed, it would come through the HPB, and then if that portion of it gets approved, then it would go to the planning and zoning board, but that's the procedure for it. But that's not part of this application tonight.

Because the plans for the...

Yeah. We have our permit expediter doing the application for the garage conversion and submitting that to planning and zoning.

And are the plans to keep the original wood doors?

It's there now. They don't really serve any purpose just because they're going into a CMU wall, but we kept them there. We can keep them if you want us to.

Other projects have done that in the past, at least to see... It's in the back. Yeah, it is in the back.

It is part of the original design. Okay, I guess we can talk further about it. So I think, just to kind of recap, I think that, you know, what the agreement is. This is a 101-year-old house. It's historically designated, and some very, very distinct architectural features in the front of the house that it's important to return those to their original state, which would be to Go ahead, Patricia.

Yes. This question is for Eddie. Eddie, if today we instead of deny the certificate of appropriateness, we approve it with the conditions, who's going to check?

Nobody has said, Patricia, nobody's saying that we're going to approve it. We're not approving it.

I know, but all these conditions, who's in charge of keeping an eye that the

They have to come back with plans, specifications, colors, et cetera, et cetera. And then once we approve on that, then the building official has something to be able to go from.

Eddie, what's the process here? Historically, when we've been in a position where we've added conditions, I would say the intensity of those conditions are much more minor. They're not as impactful, whereas we're pretty much saying this is completely... What we're asking is completely different than what's before you, and therefore I would not treat that as a condition. I do believe it's appropriate for it to come back IN A MUCH MORE FORMALIZED MANNER THAT IS MORE PRESENTABLE AND AGREEABLE TO THE BOARD.

I THINK YOU HAD A QUESTION. OKAY. SO HE'LL NEED TO GET ON THE SCHEDULE FOR ANOTHER MEETING, MAYBE THE NEXT ONE OR WHATEVER.

WELL, WHENEVER THEY'RE READY.

HE'LL NEED TO BRING SAMPLES OF THE ROOF TILE. Or pictures of the hardware that you're proposing?

They need to bring the elevations with what they are now going to bring back to where it was with dimensions, with the amount of of the architectural elements. We need something to go from, and also the building official, and then planning and zoning, of course, too. So everybody needs to, like, basically the plans and the specifications are going to be your new set of documents that are going to get approved.

Okay. Right, Eddie? Yes. We have the elevations there. Is there something else that you?

She's saying we'll need an elevation of what it will look like. Got it.

Right?

There's the original one. You have those pictures. We need to see a plan. Like, to restore it, you're going to need a plan or something. Yeah. Or an elevation.

For clarity, are you asking for colored elevations, potentially renderings, like?

No, no.

I think now's a good time. Let's be specific with what you would like to see.

Yeah, let's be specific.

Okay, right.

That's a good idea.

I mean, my suggestion will be I think rendering is, in this case, is not necessary because we already have what was the original of the home. We have enough pictures of that. But what we need is two-dimensional documents, architectural documents. When I say architecture, I'm talking about an elevation and a floor plan that shows the height, the angle, dimension, et cetera, so that we can study it and make sure that it's equivalent to the original. and with all the architectural features as well. I think that will be sufficient for us to be able to compare it.

Okay, because we have a sections plan, first and second floor. No, but elevations.

Elevations, okay.

The roofing and...

Yes, and you bring the spec of what you decide because there are many products. The spec with the color check and all, you know, Eddie can walk you through that. And then that's what we get to see here.

Mm-hmm.

You already have some elevations here of what it was and what it is right now, but they don't have any dimensions. So that's why I'm saying they do need to include dimensions. And if a correction needs to be made, just to make sure that it matches, just make the corrections, please. Sure.

Okay, so I get it now. So you want them to modify the elevation they provided here by showing the ziggurat and the vents. Exactly, and the dimensions of them. And the dimensions of everything. The stucco as well.

And the stucco.

Yeah, show, you know, notes saying what you're going to have. Something that we, a document that basically we can grab on that is everything that we had mentioned today or a set of documents.

Gotcha. Mm-hmm.

MAY I MAKE A MOTION?

YEAH.

I MAKE A MOTION TO DENY THIS CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS AS IT IS AND INVITE THE APPLICANT TO COME BACK WITH ALL THE RECOMMENDATION WE STATED TONIGHT.

YEAH. I SECOND THAT.

SECOND. ALL IN FAVOR?

AYE. And with the conditions that we just discussed, right?

Yes. Is that enough or you think? I'm clear. Okay. And you guys are?

Yes.

Okay. Thank you. We met with Mr. Ismael Naranjo last week. I guess it was last week and this week. And he gave us approval to continue working on the interior of the home except for the garage conversion, which is going through planning and zoning. That's fine. Yes. That's fine. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. You had a permit for that. Yeah. So I just wanted to. Yeah.

That's fine. Okay. All right.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Good night. We'll see you next time. Thank you so much.

When is the next meeting? A month from now.

Wednesday? Third Wednesday of every month. But you need to get to that meeting.

We have to have time to review. It just doesn't mean you're going to give us stuff one week before. We need to be able to review it, comment on it.

Because then they make recommendations. Absolutely.

So just to be clear, what's the deadline for him for the next meeting?

Typically, it's the first week of the month, right? So we are, like, what, 10 days from the first week of February?

So the next meeting is February 18th. 18th. Right.

So you would need to have it in by the first week of February. Okay.

No problem. Right?

Yes. That is correct. To give us ample time.

So that gives us time to review it and give them comments and give them time to...

The necessary revisions.

Yes. And are we uploading to the CSS portal, famous last time?

You could, or send us, if you have issues with the CSS portal, you're more than welcome to include Eddie, copy Eddie, attachments, or that well, too, if it's too large.

Okay, we'll do it.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Before we continue, I wanted to congratulate Michelle and Jeffrey on their first day. Thank you. Thanks, Patricia.

USE THE GAVEL.

YEAH, USE THE GAVEL. COME ON, MICHELLE. EXERT YOUR PRESIDENCY. HIT IT. MEETING IS CONTINUING. DIDN'T HELP, OBVIOUSLY. ANY MORE SIDE CONVERSATIONS?

THE BOARD CALL TO ORDER. OKAY.

absolutely so if the board recalls staff and as received direction from the village council to work on an ordinance for the single-family homes demolitions right so that we identified originally began with any home that was built 50 years or prior to would be part of this list where they would not be able to apply for a demolition permit until they've gotten a board review and planning and zoning approval via their site plan. So then that was the first iteration. And then at the Planning and Zoning Board, it was suggested that instead of doing 50 years prior to, we give it an exact date. And I believe it arrived at 1965. And that's how we presented it to the village council. And then during the village council consideration, it was preferred as a consensus to instead of doing it by date, to do it as a list. I believe it was the mayor who referenced the actual code of the historic preservation that does talk about that the board is to assess properties on a yearly basis and keep an inventory list of historically significant properties. So I guess the idea is that you have this running list of properties that you would identify have this character to it and eventually maybe you may get somebody who designates them. So the idea is that if the board can formulate this master list, the council will adjust the ordinance so it's based on this list. So it's a prescribed hard item. So what you have before you tonight is – Leading up to the meeting, I couldn't find anything in the system server. But I know that we had a fountain of information in our board member, Ms. Bonaduce. And she was so kind enough to allow me to explain the issues I was running into. And she provided her master list, which she has been curating and crafting for so many years. So that's what was placed on the agenda. Together, it's like over 600 properties. So it looks like she got ahead of everyone else and she went through the list and actually dialed it back to, I think, about 160 properties. And that's the list that I sent to everyone earlier today. So ideally, that was the task was these are the properties that were part of this master list. How does the board feel about the properties? What would you like to add? Is there something that should be removed? And the intention is to create one list that I can forward to the village council, and then we can finish that ordinance.

Yeah. I think that this is great because the reality is that there is no list other than the one Patricia has assembled that the village had. We found that when we first were members in 2019. We're like, well, where's the list? There was no list. So Patricia did make great time of the pandemic and compiled this list. We've used this list often as a reference, mainly for homes, shoreline property homes, some 1930s, ones that are historic designated Now this is a real great opportunity for us to really look across the board at everything older than 1965 to provide a list and for the building department and planning to have a list of what we consider historically relevant, whether or not it's designated. Now if there comes A time that there is, you know, the point of this list is that if there is a demo, then, you know, it's up to the city council, obviously, at that point, whether or not, you know, to move forward or not, based on the historic relevance of the home.

I think I have the ordinance here, the way it was drafted. So the way the ordinance read was essentially, I'll read it verbatim. Prerequisites for issuance of a demolition building permit. Prior to the issuance of any demolition building permit for a building, an applicant shall first obtain site plan approval from the Planning and Zoning Board and a master building permit for the proposed redevelopment. If the structure proposed for demolition was built IN OR PRIOR TO 1965, THE APPLICANT SHALL FIRST HAVE MET WITH THE HISTORIC PRESERVATION BOARD PRIOR TO SIDE PLAN APPROVAL. SO IN ESSENCE, WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS THAT WE WOULD NOT MAKE IT THAT DATE. WE WOULD SAY IF THE STRUCTURE PROPOSAL OF DEMOLITION IS FOUND ON THIS LIST... ON THE HISTORICALLY SIGNIFICANT LIST. ON THE HISTORICALLY SIGNIFICANT LIST, THEY HAVE TO MEET WITH THE... ABSOLUTELY. SO THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.

understanding correctly what it means is that before, all the homes were part of this list, right, from 65 back.

No, but they changed the request.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when the planning and zoning board originally envisioned this was for any house, didn't matter if it was from 1965 or before, it had to come to us and to them.

Yes.

But then the council said, hey, not every single house, let's assign the historic preservation board the task to go and look and come up with a list.

Yes.

Yeah? Okay. So it went from more to less already? Yes. Yeah. Okay, great.

It's only historically significant homes that will follow this process. Yeah, only historically significant.

If I may share my thoughts, please.

Yeah, Patricia, give me one more. I have one more question. When it says demolition, There are some times where you have to demolish, like what happened to the house in... A couple years ago. No, here, in 96. Well, this was an addition, no? Right. But we're going to demolish this part of the house because we want to change it. Demolition means flat down or a part that is being taken out or it includes additions? Is it only demolition, meaning it's going to take it to the ground? No.

I would interpret that to mean any demolition permit. Anything that requires a demolition permit, we would not allow it.

That's the way I would interpret it. I would agree. I would hope, and we have to clarify that in any way, because what we've recently seen, the 1950 home that's beautiful, has been completely demolished except the front, which I'm happy to see that they kept the front. I'm just not really sure. If the character and architecture is going to be able to be kept, you know, just because you keep a couple walls, I think it's going to be very difficult.

Agreed. And that's what I like about having lists, because I think it makes it easier for staff to administer. Because really, if it's on this list, sorry, this is the process that you have to undergo. I think it makes it easier.

So let me ask you a follow-up question to that. So when somebody is demolishing a part of a house as part of an addition, it usually is included in the permit request, right? The proposal or the permit request, that part of the demolition is included in there. Yeah. The only time they would file an actual separate demolition permit is demolishing the entire house, correct?

Yes. However, what would trip them up is our code, the village code right now says anything over 400 square feet in size has to go through the planning and zoning board. So really what we're talking about is anyone who's seeking to add less than 400 square feet to their home, which is typically like a rear addition. They want to enclose the terrace.

That's a small amount.

It's a very small amount. Okay.

So in this case, let's say somebody wants to demo the whole back of the house because they want to make it nicer, put bigger windows, whatever. That would trigger them to come to us.

But I do want to clarify that Having him on this list. These houses are not historically designated Having them on this list will bring them to us To see if there's some action that we can agree with the owner about restoring it or if we want to pursue designating the house without the owners approval and

Or we can make a recommendation to Planning and Zoning or to the City Council. We don't have to proceed with the designation.

That's the beauty of it.

Because if a recommendation is, look, you have a beautiful, what just happened with the 1950s home. You have this beautiful facade. We would like that you preserve it. And then do your addition and things.

It happened with the house, the lady architect.

Marion Davies.

Right. That was not designated. Not Marion Davies. Marion Manley.

Yeah. Right.

It was not designated. I agree. But the recommendation to Planning and Zoning.

I just want to be sure everybody's clear that putting them on this list does not designate that house.

Oh, no, no, no, no.

We still have to work towards saving it or working with the owner and stuff like that.

Or making a recommendation. But it gives us the lead way to make a recommendation which carries a good weight, especially when it gets to planning and zoning.

Yes, I agree. I just need it for the record to be clear for people that are watching or whatever.

No, absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. It is not... However, if at that point, whoever is on the board, if there's a house that... is require bigger action, at least it gives them or us the lead way. The idea is always to work with the owners. We're all one village. But also, we need to work here for a reason, right? So it's kind of keeping that balance.

Okay. So, you know, Patricia's list is great, but I need to see the pictures, which she has.

And not only that, but I think that... May I speak?

Oh, all right.

Thank you for summarizing. You forgot about me. Tell us about your list, please.

Talk to us.

I know, I know, I know. It was very, very good to hear, Eddie. And it's important to mark that line. What kind of demo? And not to repeat what happened with that house on 96. That, oh, let's make an addition, an addition, an addition. Oops, they just left one wall.

Yeah, and also that house... The 1950 house on, I think it's on 98th Street.

Oh, my God. Don't touch that subject. Our house is completely gone. The 101st. The 101st?

But they kept the facade. My idea.

My idea. If I may. There's nothing around it. But if you kill the rest, but if you kill the rest, there's nothing around it. But how do we know what is, I mean, it could be like, I mean, what is it going to be? It's going to be a Frankenstein. It's going to be a 1950 facade. No, no, no. I disagree with you.

No, you have to look at, we can look at the plan.

Allow me to finish, please.

I would like to say that this is something very important. I mean, it's not only a list full of addresses. We should prepare, because it's going to be added in the code, we should prepare a nice brochure with all the houses and addresses and pictures to give it to the council. So we have a base. We have a base that could be, it's not even a starting point. I would say that we're almost there. But we need more time, Eddie. At least once I share the pictures, we can combine all the suggestions for all the board members. And to avoid conflict with the Sunshine Law, you will be in charge of sharing those lists. And we have until the next meeting to finalize the exact amount of properties and prepare that very professional brochure that we as a board will present to the council members to be added to the coalition.

So I have a suggestion on that. We formed, we have formed in the past, we have formed, not committees.

Fact finding.

Fact finding. And we're allowed to share information as it related to a topic in a fact finding meeting. It's not allowed? It was allowed in the past.

It's the first she's hearing about it.

Oh, you're not saying it's not allowed. You're saying you haven't heard about it. Yeah, so Claudia, who was your predecessor, said... And the person before him. And the person, yeah.

What was his name?

But it's on things that we don't need to vote upon, though. Yeah, fact finding, not things that we need to vote upon.

We should be able to meet outside of this meeting if we're doing fact finding. That's what we were told. So we'd like to form a fact finding team to go through this and get all the facts and stuff like that. It's not like we're going to be voting or anything like that. It's just fact finding.

Because we're not really voting. I mean, what is the idea with this list? And let me see if we're all in agreement. And it's not, you know, I know Patricia already has a list.

Well, not necessarily, and that's where I was going to go.

Patricia already has a list that she had done through the years. And we are right now collecting more information. We divided the work so that we, because it's a large village. Yeah. So that we can go and look for other properties because maybe there are things that were missed or maybe there are things that I consider that is more or change. I think that we, all of us, have put enough time and effort and have a level of knowledge that we don't need the approval of like, you know, Michelle doesn't need my approval. I disagree.

I disagree. Hold on, but let me finish. This list is an official village document. I think we should all approve the list.

That means we're never going to be finished. And the clock is ticking, and we cannot leave planning and zoning without the way for them to start putting in implementation this new code because more homes are going to start getting demolished.

well but it this is gonna be an official village document and the village is gonna say you cannot do that demolition until you review it with but I think it's an official document that we as a historic board is putting together we have to be in agreement with the entire thing We have to align it. It has to be approved.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

You're saying she wants to be able to add a house that you may not agree should be on the list.

Yeah, because how are we all going to be in agreement with the house? I think that what needs to happen is that that house has to have some type of importance, right? It's not that we're going to pick a house because we decided to. But we all have the knowledge to say... there is an important architectural feature from the 50s or from the 20s.

I think what we're missing here is that we need the criteria. And in my mind, the criteria should be if this house would be considered for historic designation and approved. There is a very strict criteria. There's three things. There's three things. So it has to be architecturally... It has to be like an architectural example of its type or whatever. Hold on, Patricia. I'm explaining it to a couple of people here. The second criteria is it has to be a famous architect or a prominent architect. The third criteria is a historical person. Those are the three things lived in that house. Those are the three things. It's architecture, architect, and historical person. Or. There is no fourth. No, or.

It's and or or.

I think it's like two out of three. Okay. I can't remember.

But we're not selecting these homes to be designated. We're selecting these homes to avoid, if the home has a significant element, well, it cannot be one element, but it needs to be like a conjunction, right?

What are the criteria, Paula? The criteria is, if you want to save a home, it has to be something that would have been historically designated, even if it wasn't.

But why historically we're not saying that we're going to designate that home or that home has to have the qualities to that. What we're saying is if the house has a significant feature, it should be... That's too subjective. No, because we can set those parameters.

I agree with Jeffy that the criteria should be... That's way too subjective. The criteria should be... what is necessary to be historically designated. There are many, many, many homes in Miami Shores that could be considered to be historically designated. And those are the ones that we need to protect as a priority. And that's why we're getting new homes that are being designated, right? Because they fit the criteria and there's quite a few. And I believe that is the intention of the City Council is to have a better understanding of what those houses are that are historically relevant.

MR. We need criteria. We need criteria. And just saying it's got a nice feature. MS. Agreed. Agreed.

I think we do need a criteria. MR. And I do think we have to align as a board. That's why we're here as a board. You as an individual person can submit whatever you want to the City Council. But we as a board have to align and agree on one list. And we will vote on it, so we will align and agree. You, Fowler, as a citizen, want to make your own list, that's fine. But we, as a Historic Preservation Board, have to have one list. That's the request, to my understanding, from... the mayor and the city council we will vote on it we will align we will do it as quickly as possible we understand it needs to be done thankfully we have patricia's list is a great starting point we can go and we can double check it and at the next meeting hopefully everyone will have time to double check the list because i do think it's important for all of us to take the time to double check the list and come back and vote on one list to be submitted to the city council um that's michelle i understand we're one board yeah yeah

and that there's going to be one list. But I don't think in any... When this suggestion was made for us to do this work, they did not say that the homes have to be exclusively to qualify to become historically designated.

If they hadn't said that, Paola, they would have just approved all homes in 1965 and on, and they did not. No. Because they want it to be historically relevant.

So even if they didn't, we have to have some criteria. I agree with that.

And that's a subset of the first point, if it's architecturally relevant. What makes it relevant? It's details A, B, C. I'm a sorority of them.

Exactly. And we have the criteria to say it. If I see a home that has not been in this list, Because who decided upon this list? Nobody has decided. If we add homes to this list, and I have a criteria based on architecture, not because Paula likes it, but because it has some architectural features.

But that's why. So if it's architecturally significant, it should qualify for historic designation.

Then we discuss it.

So the criteria, so it's objective. Objective criteria, it needs to fit the historic designation criteria, which is three things.

Yeah, and the first one has to do with architecture. Okay. Architecture. Exactly.

I forget the exact word for it. I mean, I'll find it.

So, you know, if I see something or you see something that has that criteria, because it, you know, it fits. if it falls within the canons of that specific time, we can bring it up. But then this is going to be, I think, a mission for us all to vote in home by home. I mean, there has to be, I think we need to trust.

If you're going to stop a demolition, if we're going to, as a board, stop a demolition of a house and delay somebody building their house for months and months, We better agree on the list of those houses that we're going to bat on.

And the criteria.

But guys. So it has to be approved by the whole board.

And I have a question for staff after you make your points.

I mean, otherwise, they would have just said everything 65 and older.

Of course. Of course. So that's what I'm saying. We're going from a much broader to a much smaller. Already, there's a movement towards that.

It sounds like we're going to argue about this. So maybe we need to take a vote. Because I will not support this, just adding stuff that's not approved by the whole board. That doesn't work.

I believe we're kind of saying the same thing.

No, we're not. No, we're not. Paula's saying she wants to add a house here that you may not agree is historically significant. That doesn't work. This is an official village document. Right? It is an output of a historic board, not an individual. So then we should approve, everybody should approve it. It should be voted on.

Daniel, your thoughts? Yes, thank you. This question is more for staff and hopefully clarifies some things. This prescribed list, as Eddie had said, Eddie, Is this list with kind of the coming of new boards, one that can be amended and houses added?

Of course.

With approval of the whole board. With approval of the whole board.

And taken out too?

I don't know why you'd take one out. Why would you take it out?

If it's a criteria.

If something changed, if a general contractor went rogue.

Yeah, that's true. I have something to say, please.

Yes.

I don't know if you have time to share the list because Eddie just sent it today. Yeah. Yeah, we see it here. The list of my proposals is already with a column that says why that property is significant. Maybe it's the architect, maybe it's the style, maybe it's the year. Right. So that work is already done.

But not for all of the houses, right?

I don't see that. Not all of them because I searched the public records and not all of them have the floor plan. But, you know, it's a work in progress. We will have to show why we consider that is significant. It's true. And those significance include one of the three criterias. Because if you don't have any of the criteria, it's not going to be significant. To be significant has to be one of those three.

Yeah, but in here I see some of your comments. It says beautiful.

Exactly.

That's not exactly. One of them says it's on the canal. It's like, what does that mean?

Those were references for me. The research hasn't ended. Remember, 1940s is still not done.

And there's photos, too.

Yeah. The photos are done.

It's just to process.

So I propose, Madam Chair, if I may, I propose you to table this item for discussion. So we need to figure out a way to do it fast.

Okay. Yeah, you've done a lot of work, Patricia. Thank you. So as far as like you're afraid that we're going to delay things, right? I think that the Planning and Zoning Board is pretty sensitized to this whole issue right now, right? And while we're doing this, if they got a demolition permit, do you think that they're looking at it and making sure that if it's, you know, prior to 1965 that they're going to let us know?

It's not codified. It's not codified. I mean, it's not codified. Right.

It's not part of the process. And we have to stay quiet, which is exactly what just happened.

Yeah. Well, I mean, we have to go through the process. We'll do it as fast as possible.

I don't know. Why don't we do this? There's already a list.

Yeah.

Right? There's already... I mean, I still think... We believe we want to still keep on doing the scan, right? Yeah. Okay.

I think so.

Okay. So we already have a list, right? For the next meeting, let's keep on doing the scan. And then this list that already has the things, at least the ones that Patricia has pictures on, or you can go on Google Earth. Let's say, exactly. And we give that list.

Adding. to the list.

That's a good idea. So let me ask a question.

Do we need to continue the scans? They're very time-consuming.

I did just one small section of mine, and I've got 11 pages of stuff already, and it takes a long time.

I know, but I think it's necessary, because

I mean, I guess what I'm asking is do we think Patricia has captured everything?

Well, Patricia has a map there. So, for example, for us, for you or for me that have like a whole strip, since we're going to start looking at this list and at the map, we can already kind of check out. check out some of the areas, no?

Okay. Yeah, I'm willing to do it.

I just want to make sure that it's going to be... Plus, now we're not going to be on a rush. Every meeting, we can advance a little bit.

Daniel, and you worked on your list? Yes. I think you mentioned...

I found eight homes that I would like to bring to the board. But I like the idea that Paula proposed.

Start here.

Start here, approve, and then amend.

Right.

You know what you could do is you could make sure that your eight homes are in this list. Are your eight homes on here? And that's what I'm going to do. So not all. Not all. See, that's the point, right? That's the rub. That's the point.

That's the point, right. That's the point. Right. And are you're on? I don't know. I haven't checked. Right. So, okay.

Well, the 1921s definitely are. So she's already got that list.

So in order to expedite the process, we can first double check Patricia's list so that at the next meeting we can discuss it. you know, and align and then, you know, vote on the recommendation on submitting that list and then continue to double check the other homes so that we can go amending and revising the list.

So can I make a recommendation? The 1920s houses, I don't think anybody would argue with that, right?

I may argue. I may have some that I don't like. Really? That I believe that they're not every 1920s house is worth keeping.

Well, I think by definition, their centennial homes, they should be kept.

But no, Patricia agrees with that statement, and I forget, but I think, Patricia, I think you're, we've discussed this, like there's really 50 homes that are worth keeping, and there's like, you know...

And that doesn't mean that maybe the whole house has to be beautiful because in my search, I found some that the elevation was some part of it. Part of the facade was very beautiful. Maybe the rest of it wasn't, but that part is worth keeping. At least that's how, because it had some features that were unique.

Well, this is a good point. I mean, the first page of Patricia's is all 19. And I guess these are the 50, right, that we've always talked about, Patricia. There's 68 of them. And then we get into the 30s.

No, it's more than 50. It continues. The first page, second page.

No, the revised list. Are you looking at the revised list? I don't know. This is her revised list. This is the entire list. Updated.

Updated.

I wrote updated on the top right-hand corner for everyone. Okay. That's the list that we received today.

Oh, so this is the list we should be looking at, not this.

Yeah. Oh, okay. Gotcha. Because this was her proposal. Got it. Proposal, right. Her recommendation. Based on... The original. The original, but yeah. That's like 600.

I see. Okay.

Okay. And then there's some 1930s and then some 40s, some 50s. Got it. So I think it makes sense to... First, start here, prioritize this, add your homes, Daniel, that you've already surveyed, and of course, add any homes that have already surveyed so that we can kind of add that to the list. That are not already on the list. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If they're not on her list. Okay.

And how do we do this process for the next meeting so that we don't have to sit here and fight for every single home? Is there a way that maybe we can receive this listing ahead in advance, sorry, and each one of us can do the homework of reviewing, and then if we have a comment about a specific one, can bring it up, or what do you think?

A fact-finding team. Can we establish a fact-finding team?

I don't know what that is, to be very honest with you, and because of the Sunshine Laws,

But why don't we do it each one? Each one on our own time? I mean.

Technically, you're only supposed to, if you're going to be voting on this item, you should be having these discussions at a meeting.

That is fine. Is there any way to research a fact finding? Like, it was approved for us. Like, we were able to do fact finding.

Ale has a lot of experience with historic boards, and she's of the same agreement as I.

This is the first time I'm hearing this fact-finding. Yes, because normally for Sunshine Law, the board comes together, gathers, talk about items on the listing. My concern is that when you lead this meeting, you guys talk out. At a restaurant or a parking lot. Hey, what do you think about this item after the fact? So to me that's violating sunshine like my only suggestion to you regarding the listing is To go don't do the fact finding but just go individually hey let me go on my own to my listing of the homes in miami shores make the list and send the listing to staff and then once we have the list then we can distribute to the board oh this is the listing for um from jeffrey or paula we can distribute that back to the board saying hey these are the other board members listening for you to have to TO REVIEW. MY OTHER SUGGESTION, TOO, IS THAT THE NEXT MEETING IS FEBRUARY 18th. WE HAVE OUR DEADLINE TO UPLOAD THE AGENDA. SO WE WANT TO GIVE YOU A DEADLINE AND SIGNIFICANT TIME SO YOU CAN DO YOUR RESEARCH. GIVE IT TO US AND DISTRIBUTE IT BACK SO YOU HAVE TIME TO REVIEW. So same thing with the other application that came here, the one that was denied. If you can have those listing maybe the first week or the first Friday of February to us, that would be great.

You mean that he's going to provide? Well, you guys too. You too.

We're trying to, if we can get you on some sort of a schedule, we're working backwards. So the next meeting is the 18th. Our agenda would be due seven days before, so that's the 11th. If each one of you can commit to having your list by the first week, you share it with us, then I can take everyone's list, I'll put your names on it, and I'll send it to everyone. And then maybe at the next meeting, we would have made really great progress and have a good discussion.

And maybe the only thing we need to discuss is...

If there's an objection first one or two of them or three of them and the reason why And then we can vote on it because if we all agree we don't need to discuss that we're agreeing Another suggestion to from past experience of this listing just keep in fact to that I normally go off the state's criteria or what makes a home significant because we have local and state and So it's not just, oh, the building is over 50 years old. No, there's a criteria to it. There's also design, integrity, and what's the overall impact of Miami Shore? What does this building have the impact of significant worth preserving for Miami Shore? Because the building can be, yeah, it can be over 50 years old, but... It's deteriorating. The Arctic was just generic, vague, and it's like really no impact. So the more, especially the integrity, at the end of the day, it comes down to the integrity and why do you want to continue to preserve for the next 50, 100 years. So keep that in mind when you do your field trip on your own. between now and the first week of February. Take that time. Good sources is to go on the property appraisers and just see, okay, what's the age of the home? Okay, I like this one. Let me go down this street. Just food for thought. This is nothing overnight, but take your time on a weekend with time to look over this. Okay.

Yeah, we've been spending time.

We just got this recently, so right now you're like all over the place a little bit saying, wait a minute, we're going to prove this. It's like, no, no, take your time. We only have one. Ms. Bonaduce is listening. We haven't heard everybody else's listening, so take your time.

Okay.

One additional comment that just popped in my mind while you were mentioning about the importance or the historic matter. I think that that is key. I mean, I know that Jeffrey's talking about having the three main things or, you know, if somebody famous lived in the house, but we need to think about also if there is a feature in this home that is worth keeping because maybe at this moment it's not as important, but in 50 years it will be important. So that's another point to keep in mind.

I don't know what you mean by that.

Well, what I mean is maybe a house from the 50s may look generic right now because we're more accustomed to see them. Like when you guys were saying about the 20s, maybe now it looks more generic, but in 50 years, would it be generic? Once our neighborhood gets all these new contemporary homes, Maybe that one will be important to keep and it may be it may still have the integrity and we may have certain architectural elements that are worth keeping Just to add to miss Paula's comment look at the what happened earlier today the discussion about the roofing the Cuban tile that's a

obsolete. Who's going to make that? So that's a good example about, okay, how can you replicate something that's almost in a way obsolete? So that's something worth preserving to going back to integrity, whether it's a tile, a structure, something that can The odds are duplicating it. It's very hard. This is a rare gem. So that's something. And also, going back to the significance of the report, who was the architect? Who lived there? And overall, what is the impact for Miami Shores?

of what is historic.

You're talking about the designation criteria. That's what I think we should be using.

But going back to Paul's integrity, why is it worth preserving?

The way I kind of see it is you already have a list of historically designated structures, right? How did they get there? They were once on the inventory list. They were once on the inventory list. I see the inventory list as a Precursor to once it gets designated. Exactly. That's my point.

So we have to use the criteria for historic designation. Yes.

Yes, but thinking ahead of time. Maybe something right now for us is more typical and is not as important. For the future, it may be important.

to predict what's going to be important in the future.

By looking at the history and by seeing what is being done right now.

Again, that seems very subjective to me. That's very subjective.

I mean, everything that I have looked at that I think it's important, I have stick it to the architectural canons.

So I appreciate it. I appreciate what you're trying to do. I just think if it's going to be an official board document and this village is going to go by that document and say this house cannot be torn down unless you go to the Historic Preservation Board and all that stuff, then we need to have some objective criteria for why that house is on the list.

Yeah, and there is an objective criteria.

To me, we have that criteria, and that's historic designation criteria. If you're going to save a house, right, typically you would save it.

MS. We might be saying the same thing, but I think we might be. MS. No, I don't think we are. MS. I don't think we are. MS.

I don't think we are. MS. I don't think we are.

MS. Let's see examples, maybe. MS. I don't think we are. MS. Let's see our list.

MS. Maybe we'll – let's see an example. Maybe you can show us an example of something you're talking about.

MS. The whole house is worth keeping. I know there's a few, very few in this neighborhood that the whole house is worth keeping. Actually, the one that we just saw that they destroyed, it was one of the very few, in my opinion. But I don't think that it should stop us there, because if that's the case, we're going to end up with 10% of the history, and the rest is going to be all new. And I think that in some cases, not in every single case, nobody needs to go crazy, but in some cases, maybe that entire facade of one of these new criteria shall be kept. And the rest, I'm not, that's why I'm saying it cannot be designated, because once it's designated, We're talking about a whole completely different level of detail. Let me finish.

Let me finish.

So for example, a home come here because it's designated, we are even looking at the tile, how it's done, blah, blah, blah.

That's different. We understand that. But there are many homes. that have the criteria to be designated and are not. We only have how many? 120. No, 52. Only 52 houses. Out of how many, you guys think? 3,000-something. It's like 1.5%. 52, that's all we have. It's less than 2%. And we have 3,000 that... Yes. No, no, no.

She's talking the total.

No, we have over 3,000 homes. Total 3,000 houses. Out of how many that are worth... Well, that's why we're doing this.

We've done this. It's less than 2% what we have now. What Coral Gables has, what Miami Beach has. I want to say it's... 10% to 15%. So it's a lot more, right? So that's what we're going to work on the list for.

I think what you're trying to get at, Paula, is that you want to try and preserve the character of the village, right? Yes. And that's your intent.

Well, I think that's the intent of the board.

Well, not exactly.

Well, I just think that if the city village would have approved 65, because a majority of those houses actually were built after 1965. If you really look at all of the house, and Patricia has the numbers. Yes, there were a lot of houses built in the 50s, 60s, but there were a lot of houses in the 70s, 80s, 90s.

And maybe those are not worth keeping. I don't know.

But they would have then just said yes to everything 65 and older, and they didn't. So they're looking for a criteria from us, and they're actually using the language in our charter that says we should have a list of significantly relevant homes.

Exactly.

And that's what we want to do.

But why are we tying it to a historic preservation criteria when they are saying... Because that's the function of this board.

And I think that's the request. Our charter says we are here to preserve historic and significantly historic... And I think that's what the city council is asking. It doesn't say... Which helps keep... the character of the neighborhood, right? It definitely adds to it. But that's not our charter. Our charter doesn't say you need to keep the character, if this board works to keep the character, then I don't think.

We were tasked with a little bit of a different, we're in a twist right now because what we were tasked with is not exactly, they didn't say make a list of the things that are going to be historically designated from now on.

Can we read? Can you read, Eddie, what the request is? It says historically significant.

The request was just, hey, add to the inventory. No, we'd like to hear the request. Maybe we need to ask.

It says historically significant. That's what they said. So what criteria do we have as a board to decide if something's historically significant?

Well, Eddie, please. For me? Excuse me. Eddie is going to reread this. We need to get to work here.

What was referenced during the council meeting was Code Section 11-5A, inventory. And it says, the board will be responsible for a comprehensive and continuing survey of building structures and sites of historic significance in the village. There you go. The inventory created by the survey shall include as much information and documentation on the sites as possible.

Historically significant.

So then let's have a, I think somebody needs to make a motion for the criteria, please. And we can vote on it and move forward.

So I move that the criteria for us to designate something historically significant should be the same criteria we use to consider when we're designating a house historical. That's what I propose.

Daniel?

I agree, just that there's nuance in the details of the criteria.

I think we need to detail it a little bit more.

I think Patricia has something to say.

Patricia?

Yes, thank you. Let's analyze the word significant. It doesn't mean that you have a nice window. some little tiny detail that we all would like to preserve i know but to be significant it's another word i agree significant is the value of being designated and because it's not we would like to preserve it so the three the three criterias and two or even three. So every house that you choose, you have to say why you choose it. And you consider it significant. It's not only at least because it has this small, tiny window or something that, you know, lost in the past. I would like to designate, you know, the whole district, but it's not like this. We have this opportunity instead of, you know, saying, okay, all the houses from the 1960s and back, that would be like 2,000 houses. maybe we can choose 200 houses, 250.

Right.

And that's the criteria that I agree with you, Jesse.

Okay. So you agree that it should be the historically tested?

So you're seconding the motion, Patricia? Yes, I do. Okay. Yay or nay? The rest of the... Yeah, we have two. Yay or nay? So all in favor?

All in favor?

Aye. Aye.

I just want to read something here. Architectural engineering merit. It embodies the distinctive characteristics of a specific type, period, or method of construction, or is the work of a master architect. Are we in agreement with those words there?

Where are you reading it from?

I did a search that says, designating a historic home generally requires the property to be at least 50 years old, possess significant historical or architectural value, and retain its original integrity, appearance, materials, and settings. It must be associated with important events, people, what you guys have been saying. But then it goes into those details that we were just discussing that are important to, that we can agree upon. In that detail, at least for me, what is important will be the architectural engineering merit. It embodies distinctive characteristics of a specific type, period, or method of construction, or it is the work of a master architect.

I think that's correct. That's the criteria of what would be appropriate for what is recommended to historic.

But we should use what's in our ordinance, right?

I don't think it goes into that detail because I think it's what Daniel was saying. It's kind of in a gray area. At least this has a little bit. And I know it has other criteria.

Can you send us? of the criteria in our ordinance. I think it is in the ordinance as well. I think it is in the ordinance. We should all have it. But it's very similar to that. We send it to us to refresh our memory.