Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

everybody and welcome to the January 28th, 2026 East Lancing Planning Commission meeting. Mr. Bartley, would you please take role? Uh, yes, I will. Commissioner Chapen here. Uh, Commissioner Denult here. Commissioner Hendrickx. Commissioner Lein here. Commissioner Overby here. Commissioner Putts here. Commissioner Satleski, Vice Chair Wagner here. Chair Sullivan here. We have quorum. Thank you. Is there a motion to approve tonight's agenda? So moved. Moved by Commissioner Denal. Second. Seconded by Commissioner Overby. Um seeing no discussion, all those in favor vote I.

I oppose. Nay. Uh motion carries. Agenda approved. That takes us on to item 1.3, approval of the minutes from the January 14th, 2026 planning commission meeting. Is there a motion? So moved. Moved by Commissioner Overby, seconded by Vice Chair Wagner. Seeing no discussion, all those in favor, vote I. I. I. Oppose. Nay. Motion carries. Minutes approved. That takes us on to item number two, committee reports. Uh 2.1 is community development advisory board, Mr. Bartley. And then Commissioner Puts, if you have anything to weigh in on. I have uh I have nothing actually for that uh committee, but I know that they met, so I wanted to give Commissioner Press an opportunity to mention what happened. Sure.

Um yeah, so we've met twice uh since our last meeting here, the CBD chief uh commission. First one was a Q&A meeting with the applicants just to go over, you know, a little bit more detail about what they're applying for, what they're going to use it for, etc. um very informative as a as a firsttime member of the commission. So it was nice to kind of see the process. Um and then we last Thursday we made our let's see recommended draft budget. I think that's the combination of words they use for it. Um basically it's the budget that we are recommending the al for allocations of the block grant. um our we don't know the actual number that we're getting from HUD yet, but we are operating off of what our last year's budget was. Um it's going to be a little bit lower probably, but I I don't know. I feel like it was a very good discussion in the commission. I feel like everybody is going to get, you know, a majority of what they asked for and everybody got something. Um, we did have the advantage of there were fewer applicants this year than I think there was last year by several. So, um, they were able to stretch quite a bit more on it, but overall really I thought it was a really fun experience.

Thank you. Appreciate the update. Any questions? Seeing none, uh, takes us on to item number three, staff reports. Mr. from Bartley.

Uh I just wanted to mention um a couple items. Uh number one, at your next meeting on February 11th, you'll be seeing a conditional reasoning request uh from the Hagens for some properties on uh Grove Street just north of Burchham. You saw a very similar request uh within the last year or so, a couple years um for a conditional resoning to have an apartment building. uh they're they're they're they've they're essentially walking that back and are interested in um reszoning the properties to uh allow for lensure as as rentals of the existing houses. So, um we don't expect that there will be quite as much neighborhood concern as there was last time, but we'll remain to be seen. So, we'll have your public hearing for that on February 11th, which is your next meeting. And I just want to al also mention that the day after that on the 12th uh for our chair and vice chair uh we have training at 5:30 p.m. Uh it sounds like both of you could confirm with me that you can make that. So that's wonderful. Um and if anyone else is interested on the commission, please let me know. I can check with the clerk's office to see if there's any room um and we can add you in if you're interested potentially. Uh that's all I have.

Great. Thank you. Any questions? Seeing none, that takes us on to item number four, commissioner announcements. This is also your time to disclose any conflicts of interest on items on the agenda. Is there any announcements or conflicts of interest disclosure? All right, seeing none, uh, takes us on to item number five, communications from citizens. 5.1, written communications. Uh there was one um letter regarding item 7.1 as well as another letter regarding uh boats, sheds and and party tables. Um I didn't see anything else. So I think that characterized everything.

Um so up next is verbal from the audience. Um this is your time to come forward and address the planning commission on anything on or off tonight's agenda. We ask that you keep your comments to five minutes if possible. uh identify yourself on a card up there. And as there's no public hearings tonight, this is your opportunity to come and address the planning commission. Okay. Uh seeing none, is there anybody online in the queue? There's no one in the queue.

Okay. That takes us, as we have no public hearings, that takes us on to unfinished business. Up first is item 7.1, a request from Cody Dietrich on behalf of TDP Acquisitions LLC for approval of a special use permit for a new building with height exceeding eight stories at 530 Elbert Avenue. Mr. Bartley, I'll give this one to Miss Wright. Miss Wright,

you originally saw this project for its public hearing on December 17th. Um, at that time the application and plan submission had a number of deficiencies, many of which have been addressed by the applicant. I'll briefly go through some of the items that remain, but again, most of it has already been addressed. Um, just for a reminder, it's a 13-story building consisting of one, two, and threebedroom multif family units with a ground floor coffee shop and two levels of interior parking. It's 236 units with 505 residential beds. The project includes um bike parking of 268 with a minimum of 206. So they exceed that. They've added two EV level two chargers to the garage. They are being required to provide a traffic study, but the city's engineering department has submitted with your packet a memo indicating that they are not concerned about the level of information that will come from that and that it shouldn't hold up that they could run concurrently for the request. Um there a reminder that applicant does intend to meet the diverse housing requirements. Um the details related to the safety barriers for the third floor and rooftop amenities are listed but a little bit more refinement is necessary. They did also identify areas of amenity, but they'll refine those further through the development process. Working with the fire department, the building will be sprinkled. Um, there is a need for screening for the trash staging area which the customers aware of. There is also a loading zone

space of 10 ft which the customer is aware of. Um, as a reminder that the request is for a special use for height in excess of the eight stories that is permitted um up to 140 and I think that's it. There are a few conditions offered as a potential um motion with content for the commission should you decide to vote this evening. And also to note that at the very bottom of the last page, should the parking be recommended for approval, you'll have to state that as an option because it it's not permitted traditionally in the B3 and I can answer questions and then the customer is here with a presentation for this evening.

What page is the motion on? I just wanted to pull that up real quick. It's on page 24 and 25. Okay. But it's actually 301. I think it starts on 2425 of your report though. But of the whole packet. Yeah. Any questions for city staff? I have some questions tonight, but I think um if we're going to hear from uh the developer and maybe we could have sort of a general conversation, is that okay with you?

Um as opposed to just uh I think there questions for both staff and the developer, but is a developer going to Sure. Yeah, the developer has has some cards submitted so we can bring them up and and I assume that some of my questions will be answered as the dialogue takes place. If there's no Commissioner Line, I just have one general question. I admittedly am a little bit hung up on the traffic study. I find it um I guess surprising that they don't anticipate any changes

um or significant changes to the traffic patterns given the the size of this and the number of units. Have we ever I mean, I'm trying to think about my time on the planning commission. Have we ever had a traffic study come back that says that there will be a change to traffic patterns? because I don't know that I could ever think of one. I asked that question. I think I'm not aware of any. Um I think this kind of this came up with a different project. Sorry. But um we could we can ask the applicant the traffic studies support projects. Yes. But I think in this case, you could also make the argument that there's an existing parking lot that would be replaced with parking

and then the rest of the parking spaces would be in a different different location. Yeah. And I I'm I guess I'm I'm very I'm thinking about the parking situation, but also just the number of increased people. Um

so the customer is prepared to discuss that. It's my understanding that based on their experience with these types of developments that they average 02 or.3 cars per bed and that equates to I can't remember like 200 and some beds. There are 215 parking spaces available for monthly rental in the current city system. There are also some individual spaces that'll be allowed and not all students most of them but not all of them will bring cars. Mhm. So the customer is prepared to discuss how they come to that number. And originally the site was looked at a few years ago in a

there was a traffic um trip generation memo that they thought would be suitable, but after our engineering department spoke with our third party traffic engineer, they wanted to be sure that the impacts wouldn't be larger than they thought. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Uh just noting for the minutes real quick that Commissioner Hendricks arrived at 6:45 and then Commissioner Overby, did you have a question?

I I end a statement. I guess I I too want to dev doveetail with Commissioner Leine on the traffic study. We had a traffic study with Sheets and and just driving on that on Sageno. There's going to be more traffic and a lot and it's going to be clogged and there's going to be more traffic with with I I think is it 600 people that will be in this building and it's going to happen and what will Albert Street look like on movein day and and I the traffic studies to me don't have any currency. They don't say to me here are the number of of of of cars and traffic that that this intersection encounters. Now, here is what would happen with adding 600 people to an apartment building right next to it. And that impact is good or bad or indifferent. And and the intersection is capable of accommodating that. So, I I I've been very disappointed in the traffic studies that we have that we have experienced so far.

And the developer can speak to their intent on how they're going to conduct the traffic study. And they have been in contact with our engineering department. Um, and again, they don't, and I don't mean to put words in Cody's mouth, but they don't anticipate every student having a car. And so, they won't I live in East Lancing. East Lancing is a parking lot. We'll let the developer Yeah. Let's have the applicant come up and and give an overview of the the park. I just had a a process question. So, this is a special use permit. We would potentially still see a a site plan for this part of it. Okay. So, it's all we're all voting on both of it together. Okay. Makes sense. Thank you. Uh at this point the applicant can come forward question.

So I have a question for staff about parking. Um I know that the the Howard is also another development coming up. Um and you said there 200 and some odd parking spots for the city. I mean is that for both of these projects together or it's for any new development? Those that's the number that currently our parking department has indicated that they have available to rent on a monthly basis. There are additional spaces, but they would have to be individually rented, but not many. So, right, I mean, at one point there was there was talk about Michigan State and uh commuter lot, but I read in the report that they are not interested in doing that. So, correct. We really only have 20

215 between all new development. Okay. Thank you, Commissioner Denal.

Um I had two questions. Um the first one was um the packet states that the 83 commercial spaces that are anticipated to be included on levels two and three are for commercial leasing only. Right. It specifically says parking is not for residents. And I guess my question is how and maybe this a question for the applicant but how is that going to be enforced? Right? How do we know that someone's parking there to go to the peanut barrel, right, for example, and not just parking there and then going up to their apartment? Um, and then my second question was um on the diverse housing requirement um item, the where are we at on the payment payment in lie of taxes and other um

things that we can do to fulfill that diverse housing requirement? Has has council acted on that yet or Okay. So, so that's not even a thing yet. So, the parking first, the first two levels, they're taking away a surface lot of 86 spaces and proposing 83 for commercial and it's going to be sorted with the city to administer it. So, there are certain items that will need to be addressed for that. They'll have to answer how they intend to control that. And as far as the potential for a change for the diverse housing um I'm sorry fee and loo there isn't one there isn't an ordinance there isn't I can speak to that draft and Landon can

just because we talked about it today we expect uh tenatively expect to bring something to council on February 17th um but I don't think it's going to be a I'm not quite sure what form that's going to be in right now. Okay. Um but the intent is to have a field new program and to have the ability for someone to transfer credits in from outside of the diverse housing uh area downtown right right now. So that that's what we'll be bringing in some form. I'm just not quite sure how flexed out there will be at that time. Okay. That's what we're planning.

Is isn't the distinction with parking that they're not renting the spaces? It still would be half hour hourly parking as typical citywise. I think that's if somebody lives there, they could park and they just would have to pay. Yeah, I think that's my hourly I think that's my my sort of question is what's pro is there anything prohibiting someone from just paying that much time in the parking garage? It's expensive cost. I mean I I get a daily rate of Oh, I know it's expensive. I'm familiar.

Um yeah, I just I you know was just sort of asking uh since that was a really important part I think of this project to um to the businesses. But yeah, happy to hear from the applicants. Yeah, and these are my questions, too. A lot about parking and some clarification, but I think it'd be great just to hear uh from our developer and then I'd like I'm ready to I think we're all fixated on uh y certainly that topic and maybe a few others as well. For me, it's more clarification than anything and I think uh we can probably get to that. So,

on that note, and we welcome the applicant to come up and address some of these questions and provide general updates. Thank you, Planning Commission. Uh, Cody Dietrich, vice president of development with Train Development Partners from Roseville, Minnesota. Um, happy to hop in and we can be interactive a little bit as need be too. Um, I kind of just blended our presentation from last month a little bit to give a couple updates and then, you know, um, show a couple of plans, but really a lot of it's the same, just a little further detail onto that piece. But a lot of these clarifying questions we can go through. So, if you want to go to the next slide. Um so we are here on December 17th and then the following day we went to the DDA meeting in the arts commission at the DDA meeting. Uh we did spin in circles and circles around parking as well too and um everybody talked about the history of parking and where we got to and long winded answers are basically getting that this is a big public benefit of putting the public parking back in the building. And to reiterate what Alicia said. So currently the overall Bailey surface lot is 121 or 123 stalls. The private portion that our development would be on is 86 stalls and we are going back with 83 public parking stalls that would be a public garage that would either have a revenue share program or a lease agreement with the city per my conversations with Caleb over the last month. So there's a couple different ways that could be but those would all be for rent by the 30 minutes hour whatever it may be. So those would not be reserved for our residents. However, um if in the future it's determined that we don't need that parking, we could always work together to say, "Yeah, we'll rent some of those to our residents." But we'd have an agreement saying that, you know, both parties need to sign off on that. We're not going to unilaterally all of a sudden say that. So, that would just be, you know, 10 20 years down the road if parking changes and there's less parking in the community. Um and where we started with that when we originally started the development, we really made for sure we did engagement with everybody. So, our first meeting was with a lot of the local business owners and we proposed 30 public parking stalls and we got, you know, everybody's very

upset about that piece because they were losing all their parking. And so, we're like, okay, what can we do to be better? And so, instead of uh moving forward, we took one level of residential out and shoved a second level of parking in to service those neighboring businesses owners. And that was the intent of the whole piece. Through that, uh, we ended up getting to 83. So, we've been kind of blending around there. So, we're at 83 stalls now out of 86. So almost replacing one to one which I just had a conversation with the commercial property owner uh of the entire buildings of pina barrel last week. He is in full support. He'll come to the city council meetings and speak in support. So everybody has seen that as a real positive. Um I think to hit on the traffic study piece real quick. So per the city code, a traffic study is not required in the downtown area unless the engineer asks for it. We went back and forth several times and got told we didn't need to do it. And we originally submitted back in November, we did a trip generation memo like the last developer did just to do a belt and suspenders approach and try to go a little bit above and beyond to show something. And then November, December came and then December 15th, two days before the plan commission, all of a sudden the third party engineers like let's have a traffic study done at the 11th hour. So we looked at that piece. We've been working with Steven Clayton and the engineering department for a while and just two weeks ago we signed off on the final scope of the uh traffic study. And what that traffic site does is it really looks at the trip generation from the site of the parking on the site and how that's coming and going. And so where Stephen and the rest of engineering is comfortable at is we are actually reducing the parking stalls by three stalls of what's currently there. The only really change that's happening with that piece is instead of going out onto Bailey, we are now coming on to Albert. And I think to the the comment about sheets and everything like that, the part where they're comfortable with that piece too is Albert's not as heavily traveled and going across a main thoroughare intersection like some of the sheets um entries and exit points. So through our conversations, you know, we've just finished traffic and and John and Ricardo are um our engineers here. Um we just finished our traffic counts last week and so we're we're going to have those soon and we'll share those.

But realistically, the parking generated specifically on site is not going to change. the traffic patterns aren't going to change. They might slightly change from where they come out, obviously coming out to Albert instead of Bailey. Um, but the rest of the parking is accounted for in different things like the ramps, um, and wherever they might park. So, uh, to Alicia's point too, we typically see in these downtown settings where we park them about 2 to 3 per bed. So, that's about 100 to 150 stalls, let's call it, for this 505 beds. um through the parking ramps currently and through the whole entire parking systems and most of this is in the division in St. ramp there are 430 stalls available and this is conversations with Caleb and and the parking department and so what the city is comfortable with currently is using 50% of those stalls to issue to new developments so that's where the 215 comes with really there's 430 they don't want to allocate all those today and they want to keep some and you know as things change and everything like that so um I am not sure where the Howard project's going to go um I know they were um denied at the zoning board of appeal so they're going to have to rework in some fashion but as of right now I I don't want to speak out of turn, but I don't believe they're on the table until they revise their plans. Um, but we wouldn't be probably more comfortable taking more than 120 to 150 stalls at most to be at our max level in that piece. And so, what we see is a lot of these students have the opportunity to either park there. Caleb also mentioned that they can get direct permits with the city, too. So, even though there's 215 dedicated directly to these developments, that doesn't mean that additional students can't go and try to get individual permits directly to them versus tied to our property. Um to the commuter lot piece, Caleb also iterated that those conversations is the university is not interested in signing a general agreement with the city and creating a whole program. However, they still allow for anybody who lives off campus as students to park there. So, anybody living downtown technically still qualifies off-campus to park at the commuter lot and they can take the

bus through um as need be. Um, another point with that piece is freshmen are actually not allowed to even have cars on campus. It's actually prohibited unless you get a waiver to do that. So, they are generally trained from their first year here to not have a car. So, I know we talked about a lot of students, you know, will have cars and things like that. But part of the the point we had talked about in the DDA is, you know, if you're a student, your job is to go to class, to study. If you're an athlete, to go to practices, to go to your games, and, you know, enjoy this life. But at the same time, we have Target with grocery store, we have restaurants, we have bars. So everything they need is downtown. So why do you need a car other than to just go drive around? There are some people who will have jobs that maybe outside of downtown. So there are some of those people. So I think that can be covered in that 2 to.3 that we can get uh in the neighboring division ramp and and St. Charles ramp, but so we we look at that and then we have our 260 bike stalls for people to go around campus. We have the bus locations and then for people if they're coming and going during, you know, the holidays, whatever it may be, we have the bus to DTW, we have the Amtrak station, we have the airport. So, anybody who's not regional has those options or if they're regional, maybe their parents come pick them up. And um talking to a few of our different property management partners today, just confirming on some of these things. What they've seen actually is a lot of parents don't want to pay the additional cost for parking because all of a sudden they're paying for their kids parking uh parking cost, the car maintenance, the insurance, the gas, it's all just coming downhill in that piece. And so you could be easily talking another6 $7,000 by the time you have the car payment, everything a year. So a lot of parents see the need to just not need it, especially in a downtown setting like we have here in East Lancing. So all those things kind of culminate to, you know, show that, you know, I know a lot of people have cars, but I I don't think it's as much as that piece. There's 52,000 students at MSU, and I I I can't imagine more than half of them have cars. And the other part of that, too, is there's a lot of international students, and they typically don't have cars because they don't have ties to to go anywhere they're focused on their studies. Um,

but so that's where this whole traffic study stuff comes to. you know, we've we've been we tried to work ahead of it and then, you know, we kind of got that at the 11th hour, but we'd like to really still proceed while that's going on. And we don't see it as a major impediment to have that done. And so, that's part of it. Um, we've been talking with a lot of different departments, fire marshall Hol going through all the fire pieces. We went back and found a a fire a water test done in 2023 that supports the infrastructure for water in the area. So, there's no concerns there. Um, we've been working with engineering very handly. We've worked with Alicia and Landon um for the last month to really refine our plans. We had our floor plans and the unit plans to make that uh in a better spot and we've just been continuing engagement talking to some different people. Um, I just uh last week got this study from a couple MSU professors and just to talk about the housing shortage here too. 38% of the thousand students they surveyed out of the 52,000 have housing insecurity that they can't find housing, pay for housing, pay their bills, um, experience homelessness and that's because there's such a extreme shortage and we haven't seen uh that much development in the last eight or nine years. So that's a lot of just points that really push these things forward and something to think through as we're doing this and really part of our special use permit at the same time too is tied to the parking. You know, we're trying to service the neighboring business community and that's driven our height up as well just to basically put in this parking where we're going to take a loss on it by time we lease it back to the city. So it's it's putting that piece in as well. And then I think the last big thing we've been doing, um, we had the meeting with the arts commission. We were here last time and they were very open to, you know, not being in a certain box, but opening up to a lot of people to be creative on the art side. So we issued an RFQ last week to over 100 artists to look at five locations of art and propose anything else. So we want to really be open to a lot of local artists and that's expanded throughout Michigan. But really excited to see what they bring forward as part of our murals or maybe they come up with a cool abstract metal piece that replaces a

mural, whatever it may be. So really trying to create a very unique opportunity here that could really en enhance and activate that alleyway. Um and then the I mean that's the gist of a lot of the things and happy answers questions but then I've just added a few more slides. I think one other thing too um after last time's meeting um Al Bay who I know who is here uh with Augustusen we had talked to him about stepping back the second floor closer to his building. Um so we did do that. We step that back about six feet so it's flush in the corner just to add a little bit more openness as it gets closer there. So we wanted to make sure we did that piece. But um otherwise we've added additional notes to the floor plans. We've laid out how the coffee shop would be immersed into our lobby um to show how that would look. We'd have security doors past that. But think of it like point dexters at the graduate hotel. So um really want to make our building be part of community versus just another residential building that doesn't have any ties to the to the area. So, um, I can flip I have all the floor plans and things like that. We don't need to necessarily look through them unless somebody wants to. We've they're kind of all the same. But again, our big piece is just been as much engagement as possible and trying to make the bring forward the best projects possible for you guys to to see tonight.

Just had a point of clarification before other questions. So, you've a handful of times there in that overview mentioned students. Is that the exclusive market you're you're aiming for or is there other people you're looking for? It'll be primarily students. I mean, there'll probably be some young professionals that maybe not uh have been here recently, but a lot of times it's hard to mix different, you know, um as people get older and things like that. You know, you've seen that separation with the seniors on like the Newton Lofts versus or Newman Loss, excuse me, versus Landmark. But then with that the diverse housing requirement, how do you aim to accomplish that if you're

Yeah, that that would probably be young professionals then that are postgraduate on that piece. That would be moderate income housing. Otherwise, we may look to do the payment in L. Um we're open to both, but the payment in L would generate more taxes for the city. Um and then we also do other housing types. Um I do affordable housing as well. Um, so we are looking at uh we're looking at a condo project at the Fabian Mezer land on 421 Abbott and 431 across from city hall and doing that piece that could maybe offset that's currently outside the DDA. So that has some stipulations with that as well. Um, or we could look at that as affordable housing if that doesn't work. We're going to start we're going to take the condos out and just see if there's interest here in the next week or so to see if that's a project that would be viable to even bring forward to you guys or and city council. Um but then you know the affordable housing piece you know if there's more dollars coming from like a payment loo we can support those those affordable housing get more units by doing that um I will give the example we are working on a project in Ann Arbor right now it's a 343 unit uh fully affordable housing deal 4% liitech deal through MISTA and we are getting a pilot for a dollar a unit and even at that scale we needed the pilot to make affordable housing work so I just want to put that out there of just real world examples of how difficult and how cost it is to build that affordable housing in today's world.

Any other questions? I have a few, but

sure. I I do as well. I mean, I think really the uh the questions that are coming from the commission, I think we're all seems to me that we're in large part on the same page here. So, I want to just kind of clarify parking. Um, let's just stay with that for a little bit. I appreciate the not only the written information that Alicia compiled, the dialogue back and forth between you, Cody, and our city staff, uh, fire, police, uh, Alicia, planning department, uh, engineering department. Really good back and forth. I appreciated your attention to detail. Talk walk through the the parking with me a little bit. So, you're going to replace 86 spots with 83.

Yes. And they're going to be underground parking. Is that correct? No, they'll be at grade. So you'll drive in and we have 30 stalls at grade where we have a couple um maybe Alicia if you want to go forward to maybe the floor floor plan at least right there. Yeah. So we have 30 stalls at grade and then we have a couple exit standpoints where people can just walk right out to the alley and walk across the commercial. And then another point too is we did add a excuse me a secondary exit and revising our plans to make sure we have one in, two out. So, it it jumps out to I think several of us that that's not designed for occupants of the complex of the apartment complex. And you talked about that, but I'd like to have you go just a little bit slower. Explain that.

I'm I'm just graduated from Michigan State. I've got a teaching degree and I'm going to teach in East Lancing public schools and I'm probably going to need a car. Uh, and I like living downtown. It's walkable. New apartment complex. Perfect spot for me. So, explain how I'm where I'm going to park my car. I'm not sure I understand because Yeah,

you that's not available on site and the I think it's a 230 250 uh spots that are available. I'm not okay. I'm not sure I understand how that plays into this because my cousin also wants to go down and shop at Target and he wants a spot to park uh to get to Target. So, I'm a little confused about that. If you could sort of Yeah. walk me through that, I would appreciate it.

Yeah. So, the parking structure within this building would either be a gated arm system where you drive up like you do in the division or the St. Charles ramp and pull a ticket and pay for hour by hour. There could be a factor where we do a license plate reader instead too where you punch in through an app and and come to park there and you're charged by a half an hour hour, whatever those time frames end up being. And if you are a resident of the building, you would then walk the half block to the division street ramp to park your car. Um, and then come back and forth from there andor the St. Charles a block and a half. Okay. So, what's that going to cost me to park? I'm a I'm a first year teacher. I wish we paid our first year teachers more, but we don't. Um, so how am I going to how am I going to pay for that?

Yeah, it' be um through us. So we would directly buy the permits through the parking division. Okay. And so what would I what would I pay? Uh, I think it's going to end up being around $100 to $125 for a stall. Per per per stall? For how long? Per month. Per month. Per month. Yes. So we're going to add $125 to my rent that I'm going to have for parking. Yep. Okay. or or you could go directly through the city parking for some and get that permit directly at that same rate.

Well, roughly that's going to be that's going to be the the answer to the question if I want to park my car there. I liked your you know your little calculation.3 times 500 occupants. So you think roughly we need to find a place for 150 cars. Is that correct? Did I do the math? Yeah, 120 to 150. And at at that same time too, you know, I don't think we'd be comfortable because we have to it's an expense to us too. If we buy the permits, we have to commit to those, you know, at least for a year, probably some sort of long-term commitment. If I can't sell them, then I'm just on the hook for the bigger expense on my side, too. So,

so let let me go back. So, I'm going to if I'm going to park in one of what do we say two? So, 215 is work that down. Uh 215 is the number to park there or in one of the 83 spots, it's going to cost roughly 125 bucks. Correct. They they would not park in other 83 spots though. That would just be for transient people coming to, you know, go to the retail, the restaurants, etc. I love the walkability. I mean, there's, you know, you you touched on it. You can go to the airport in Detroit and walk from the apartment complex and get to the airport. Targets down there. Campbell is down there. You can get food. Very walkable. So, there's a lot to be said. I love the fact that you have a lot of bike racks. Mhm.

But I kind of picked up on the same thing that uh our our chair picked up on. You talked a lot about students. And I was thinking as I was prepping for tonight that we were really talking about uh students and non- studentents. So, but your market appears to be mostly students. That that's correct. And you know, it depends on if the payment Lou comes through, they might be 100% students. You know, it's you know, mixing here. has the diverse housing is primarily going to be probably young professionals and things like that afterwards for that 60-ish units.

And I want to clarify something about the commuter lots. I saw it in the input from Alicia which was very well done. Thank you for that. And Landon, thank you for uh your support there as well. Um I saw the conversation with Michigan State the commuter lot. So if I'm a student and I think you answered this question, I just want to make sure we got it on record a little second time. If I'm a student, I haven't quite graduated with that teaching degree. Um, if I show my uh ID to the parking administrator on campus, I can still park out on Mount Hope. Is that correct? Bring a CAT bus in.

That That is correct. As long as you are not an onampus res. So, anybody living downtown, driving from half an hour, whatever it may be, anybody not living on the actual campus can buy a commuter lot pass until they are sold out. And they they currently have them available still. It's a lot easier as you mentioned. All right. Very, that's very good. So, uh, but that 125 bucks is, you know, I think I'm glad we flushed that out tonight. That was important for me to understand that. Um, and I I may just add back to that piece and that's the part where, you know, a lot of these parents say they, you know, that added cost just do you really need a car there?

Yeah. Yeah. And it is very walkable. There's a lot to be said for it. So, a couple other quick questions here and then I'll I'll let others chime in here. Um, I love the input from the fire department and appeared to me that there was a really good dialogue back and forth about some of the things that were concerning. I'm I it's probably in this report, but I didn't pick up on it. One thing they said was we need more water and I didn't see that we had addressed that specifically. Did we, Alicia?

Yes. So, we did the fire marshall did work in great detail back and forth. There are a few items that'll need to be addressed in the planning when they get to the permitting, but he did send an email that is attached in the packet that says the items have been satisfied. Okay. All all items including the big one for me was we need water. That makes sense to me. So, yeah. So, so when ACD brought the affordable housing project forward two years ago approximately, they did a water test and we went back through engineering and got that water test and confirmed that that would be sufficient for the area. Okay. And then I just want to make a pitch for the police department. The police department did acknowledge that we'll be more people downtown and we're going to need some more staff and I

uh this is a tough topic to talk about right now in a in a bigger in a bigger political climate, but I do believe that uh a well-trained um smart intelligent police force um police department uh is gerine to a healthy community. And so I do think that we need to consider I'm kind of making a pitch to the city council here. Uh consider if we're going to have some added tax revenue here uh through this project that we need to set aside some of that money to support uh a police department that is understaffed right now. And I just think that's important and I think we need uh to uh to read carefully the input from the police department. That's really not anything for you Cody necessarily. To add to that on the tax piece though too, so if we were to include the diverse housing in the the building, um we estimate that our you know we need a pilot on those units. We'd estimate that the taxes are somewhere in the 1.3 to 1.4 million range. If we are able to, you know, the payment l comes through whatever it may be, we're probably increasing that to about $1.7 million in uh annual taxes. So you take that extra $400,000 over 10 years, an extra $4 million over 10 years. And I've taken too much time. I'll I'll sit back.

We can kick it back to you. Y Commission and I'll Oh, yeah. Thanks. Um, so I had a couple of questions. Um, one was rent. Um, I I'll have to find this in the 300page packet. I know I made a note uh somewhere in here about the rents. Um but can you talk a little bit about um how you arrived at the numbers that you did? If you feel like those numbers are sustainable um over a long period of time um yeah any information about rents?

No, happy to. So um just to re rejiveive that um so we probably see studios kind of in the mid around 14 $1,500 or so. Um, uh, one bedrooms would be 2500 or maybe a little higher. And two bedrooms end up being closer to the low threes to maybe mid-3s and three bedrooms touch the fours basically. And that's for the whole unit. That's per bed. Okay. Whole unit that's conglomerate with the beds. And so,

um, part of that is is just, you know, again, um, I'll give the example to Abbott. I think they raise their rents $400 to $500 um this year on on students um just because there's no competition and they're fully leased up and it's a supply demand issue and um you know I'll give another example of Ann Arbor. Ann Arbor talking to some of the student housing developers there they've kind of seen their their breaking point where you know I think they're charging $3,000 for a 400 foot studio uh on some some units and they have really seen you know push back on that piece but they have 9,000 beds in the pipeline that are going to be delivered between next year and the next two years after that. So they're seeing that supply help um you know curb that demand or the demand be met with the supply to help bring those prices back in. Um Michigan State's the same size university but hasn't had any product delivered since 201819. And so that just keeps exasperating further and further and further. And so really the way to tackle this is with more supply to to help with that demand. And um had a couple follow-up comments according you know talking about the engagement. I was able to talk with Parker Fischer the head of the housing commission. and I know he was here last month talking and you know they're seeing that at some of these projects uh apartment buildings a mile mile and a half away from campus is all of a sudden rent increasers are going up $1500 $200 on seniors and just you know the average renter not students because students are moving further away from the campus because they have to and part of this housing study too um that was done by the professors the number one issue for for people is price you know 82% of the 2017 respondents noted price is the biggest issue. The next was safety and then proximity to campus and the issue is they you know some of these people are getting pushed farther from campus which also causes more you know logistic issues and things like that for the to get to the school. So it all it's kind of a life cycle housing thing you know the more we can do this it opens up

more rent available units for seniors a mile two miles away for other people who are you know just average professionals. Go. I was just going to chime in that I I have to say I did not see it in the packet. Did you say that a onebedroom would be $2,500? Yes. Okay. I know. I'm like, "Oh, boy. I I paid $1,000 for a two-bedroom lanced my entire life. I've lived in a lot of apartments here. $2,500 for a onebedroom is really high. My sister-in-law lives in downtown Georgetown for less than $2,500 in DC. Um, so I think we need to think very seriously about whether this is offering affordable housing in downtown East Lancing. That those are steep prices.

Yeah, I think my the follow-up comment, thank you so much for backing me up with other apartment apartment data from other cities. I I I think your comment about prices at apartment complexes that are farther a field from campus increasing because there's more demand for those units. To me, it does not make sense that offering more expensive units downtown would decrease the pressure on those farther away units because if people I don't know that it's that there's no housing downtown. I think part of the problem is there's no affordable housing downtown. I know when I moved from Chicago to here, I couldn't find an apartment that was affordable in East Lancing and so I lived in in Lancing,

uh, which was fine. Um, but I I think I agree with Commissioner Lein that the rents, which I know you have probably come to in order to make the project financially sustainable for you. I don't know that the market might support that. I would I would be surprised, Mr.

Yeah, I it's part of, you know, where construction costs have gone. But then, you know, Michigan State or this student housing market is one of the tightest in the country. It's top five of the, you know, 99% least. And so, there's nowhere to go. So, the prices just keep rising. And that's just, you know, we actually wouldn't even be top of the market probably on that piece. And so what happens is the more supply that comes in, the older product starts to reduce their prices to be more competitive as well too. So it's it's a trickle down effect as the life cycle housing. It's it's similar, you know, if you when you talk about single family homes, the idea is for people, you know, empty nesters to eventually move to another housing type to open up those homes to be starter homes for families, but they're getting priced out of those pieces, too. But the life cycle housing still has to occur to to push it further down the hill. And so there's a lot of studies out there for you know class A market rate apartments and and typical you know market rate apartments are are cheaper than that piece than than you know a student geared project. Um but what happens is you see a lot of people move from you know class B up to class A apartments which are brand new luxury apartments and class C moves to class B and so it's allows people to step up to the next level in the life cycle and then opens up more affordable housing downstream. I know it's it's kind of hard to see that piece, but that's the typical economics if you read a lot of these market reports.

Yeah. Mr. Bartley, did you want to chime in? I just have a quick point. It's it's completely okay to ask about rents for the purposes of of interest to understand the project, but but it can't be part of your decision-m. uh there there is a affordable housing requirement as part of the diverse housing requirement and that's essentially the the applicant has to meet that diverse housing requirement in some form in some in some form of some way so beyond that you can certainly ask about it you can certainly discuss it you can think about it but it can't it can't make a difference to your decision-m

it was not but I am interested thank you Mr. shortly. Um, I actually do have I'm so h happy that you brought up payment in Lou because that was my next question. Uh, you really set me up there. I'll spike the ball now. Um, I don't play volleyball. Um how um how much does the project um depend on payment in loo or do you have other options to make the project happen if payment in loo doesn't move forward to to meet any diverse housing we either need to mitigate offsite

have the payment l uh I guess there's two payment lues payment l to uh buy out of providing on site or a pilot for payment of taxes. Something has to give because, you know, it's it's not financially feasible to put those units out at those lower lower AMIs, lower rents, um, and justify all the construction costs and things like that. So, there has to be some sort of offset to make that work.

So, you would uh I'm just getting clarification. You would have to wait to commit to building this project until city council acts on the ordinance that's in front of them. Um, yes. Or we could do a uh a pilot. We could submit a pilot application for a payment of taxes right now. So, so we're looking to, you know, hopefully we get through the approvals and we work through it together and then as we're negotiating out the development agreement, come back and confirm what the diverse housing is going to be in that part, whether it's payment loot outside of um doing a pilot or mitigating offsite in some instance. Okay. Yeah. Any other questions? Um,

vice chair I I think I I missed that. So I'm going to take Dave's note here and can you explain that again? So So if there is no payment in LO um would you be willing to build diverse housing and um we've had some issues with developers in the past. Would you be willing to build diverse housing before the other project? Yes, we would we'd be open to putting that building, but again, we need that pilot for that to put it in the building. So, okay,

we we look for the creative solutions and I think it comes back to a couple things, too, is you know, and we would we would love to do, you know, our hope was to do more projects in Lancing. So if we were able to take that payment in Lou and whatever that number is, we could go potentially put that into an 80 or 90 unit fully affordable housing building, leverage MISTA dollars to do that as well and get more units than we'd get in the building and create a better separation of that piece too. And it's easier to operate all those things and easier to uh with compliance. Um that that would be our preferred way. I think that's the works the best. um you know, we have this other site we've been looking at as affordable condos, like whatever that may be, and that's tied to our our project, but that would provide additional tax income for the city while also getting more units if we're able to figure that out.

Can I ask you just a follow-up question? Sure. Um and then Mr. Bartley, if you want to Okay, you can you can ring me in if necessary. Um so I just want to ask ask a quick follow-up question to that. Um, and I've just forgotten my question. Sorry. That's my fault. Oh, no. Um, it happens to me all the time about diverse housing. Um, sorry. Come back to me. I'll I'll absolutely we'll come back to you. We'll come back to that. I just wanted to quickly u differentiate I think because Cody's talking about pilots and foo and a pilot the payment in le of taxes is an economic development incentive essentially to help him build affordable housing that would be issued by the city.

Yeah. Um but the but the fee and loo is a different program that hasn't been developed yet that would be would be developed potentially as part of this ordinance. So I think your question is if that fee and loo doesn't go through is are you still planning on how are you going to meet your diversizing requirements? Is that accurate? Exactly. Just want to clarify that. Thank you. And you had referenced some uh land on Abbott potentially that you were considering. Would it be in that site or a separate site? Just curious. Yeah. or implementing in the building itself and then getting a pilot for those units. Um so you know a reduction in taxes basically for the units that qualify for the diverse housing in the existing footprint that you're proposing. Okay.

Yes. I do I do remember my question. So so um the you talked about MISTA and getting money and I understand like it's expensive to build um low income low to moderate income housing. Um I see your your project is going to start if approved in the summer of 2026. Um and hopefully take two years to uh be finished. Um if payment l does not develop um do how quickly can you can you u build something as low income or moderate income? I mean I think it takes a long time to get a MISTA approval and all those sorts of things.

Yeah. So, there's there's a couple pieces to the initiative program. And again, we're doing one in Ann Arbor right now. Um,

so there's 9% low-inccome housing tax credits and 4% low- income housing tax credits. And I'm I don't want to get too far in the weeds on this piece, but typically 9% low-income housing tax credit deals are much more competitive and they're limited to typically somewhere they're sub 100 unit deals or more so your 40 to 80 unit deals. Um, I know the PK project has been trying for years for 9% and it's it's super competitive and it's very hard to get. the 4% program on the other side, you get less tax credits. Um, but a lot of deals need a lot of gap funding for that piece. But if we're able then to shift some of those payment and l dollars from payment fee and loo dollars I should call it to that piece to fill that gap. If you have a deal that doesn't require gap funding on the 4% side, you can walk right through. So, I um in Ann Arbor, there's there's a few different nuances to it, but I had to submit an application before the end of the year because some it came out some HUD rule came out and basically on October one, right before they shut the government down. I was able to send my application in 60 days and they were basically, okay, when do you want to close? We just need about a three-month process to figure it out and we could close. We need to wait for entitlements is going to be the issue, but if we had those, we could close, you know, here in March, April on the project. So the 4% opens more deep doors on that piece. Then it's just right sizing to make sure you can do that. But then if you can avoid the state's gap funding, that's also a trigger for slowing projects down like the 9% deals. The four MISHA's goal is to push projects through as fast as possible. So that's where they're really excited about our 300 unit deal uh in Ann Arbor because it's the kind of scales we can avoid all that extra red tape basically and push it through faster. So, um, you know, we'd be interested in, you know, a site, whether it's our site or talking about other sites to to build affordable housing overall in downtown. And, you know, I don't know if the Howard comes back, but if they they did a fee in L as well, we'd have a lot of gap dollars to go build a 150 unit straight up affordable deal through MISTA. And that likely pencil out just fine if we had the gap funding for both those projects. With just ours, it's probably an 80 or 90 unit project. But, you know, we can look at that. Maybe there's some other people

county or something comes with some dollars on that piece too. That's right. And Cody can correct me if I'm wrong, but the application before you includes an 80% AMI on site as part of this particular structure to meet that diverse housing. The potential for a fee in Lube may come may alter that plan. May alter that plan. A completely separate unit development is not currently proposed. So what you're looking at that building itself currently proposes to meet the diverse housing with a pilot option. Yes. So we're basically just asking for flexibility and and whether that changes. Okay.

Yeah. Commission. Yeah. I was going to ask about that 80% AMI. I had to look up AMI, but I now understand what that means. First of all, how'd you get to 80%? Is that common industry standard? Yeah. So there's several different ones. So when you're doing a a low-inccome housing tax credit deal, it's commonly at 60% AMIs. Okay? But moderate income is defined as typically 80% AMIs. And you know, you could go higher, but you know, debatable.

All right. So you've got 236 units. Uh if we do contain this within the the unit or the the apartment complex we're talking about right now, how many of those 236 units would be um at the 80% AMI level? and it would be a little sparer or a little less square footage or just kind of talk that through. Yeah. So, when you um would you do like a low kabazi tax credit project and you mix market rate and low- income housing tax credits, you can't differentiate between the units. They all have to be generally equal as a standard. You know, somebody has a crazy penthouse, like that's different story. But,

um we would generally have the same finish levels and everything along those lines uh in that piece and the requirements 25%. So it' be 61 units or 59. I forget exactly what it is, but approximately 60 units. 59, I think it is. I'm sorry. 60 units out of that 236. That's that's the formula for that. 25% of 236. I think it's 59. All right. I got you. Okay. Yeah. All right.

So without the additional facility or units that you're talking about offsite, that's what that would look like. and I would have to submit an application to show you my income um in order to access that reduced rate. Is that how it works? Yes. Y we do income verification. All right. So that first year I'm looking out for that first year teacher. All right. Okay. All right. That answers my question. Thank you. Thank you. This this might be a question for staff, but how is that enforced or no students? There's state regulations

and they have specific criteria in the application to meet. Yeah. Commissioner Hendricks, did you No, I was just going to say with that piece, it's usually administrated by the state. They have to it's a fullout process they have every year that they got to meet. If they don't meet it, it's consequences to that. So, annual verification. Okay, good. Thanks. Okay, thank you, Commissioner.

Um, so just clarification, um, I guess for staff, what we're voting on today is the special use permit for exceeding the eight story allowance in downtown. So, the extra five stories is what we're voting on plus the parking. Correct. Yeah. Excellent. Um well and the site plan is part of that in conjunction with the site plan. Yeah. Um the And so I guess my question is are is the additional height then I understand that you had to add a floor of parking. So true

the additional four stories then of height that you're requesting. Is that essentially to make the project feasible in in part because of the your need to meet the diverse housing requirement that the diverse housing and then adding the structured parking that we're probably going to take a loss on by time you lease it back to the city or revenue share whatever it may be. But the other four so I'm I'm sort of ignoring the parking for now. So like the other four stories that you're requesting are essentially more units that make the project for you feasible, financially feasible. That is correct. Yes. Okay.

Have you had I'm curious. Have you had conversations with the um I'm going to forget what their actual name is now. The wild goose in or the the bed and breakfast that's right here. Yep. Yep.

Oh, hello. Al and Paulen are in attendance and um they've been at a couple of our meetings with a lot of uh the neighboring business owners and then we've had a couple of sit down meetings with them directly as well too. And so um the it is impactful to their their um their property as well too, you know, being a taller building next to a two-story home that's uses bed and breakfast. And so we've what we've tried to do is uh we created a five foot buffer at the first two levels and I stepped that back to 10 feet instead of building to the lot line to get more space. And then we talked about different ways to pull that section of the front side of the building back on Albert which we pulled back a little further from our last conversation. And then we're putting uh we added vines down the side of that piece so anybody looking out the windows has some you know a little bit more you know aesthetically pleasing just over the brick just to add more features to that piece. And so um trying to massage it the best we can to to be a good neighbor on that piece.

And I'm assuming is there reserve parking for the guests of the inn? Uh not currently. No. Where would they park with this new development? Like with your development, where would they park now if you were to frequent the inn? Uh I get they could park they could pay to park overnight in the in our lot and everything like that, but there's not specifically reserve stalls and there's there currently isn't reserved stalls. Okay. Is my understanding. Got it. Thank you. My understanding. Maybe that's wrong, but Okay. Okay. Any other questions? I have a couple. I was going to jump in. Vice Chair. Um, go go go ahead. I'll

Okay. Um, you've said you built in Ann Arbor and I'm assuming a lot of other dense urban areas. What typically is the expectation for parking there? How many people that are in the building want a spot? And you might have cited that at the beginning of your presentation, but what's the ratio there? Yeah, for more student geared properties, you know, we see 2 to.3. Um, previously I worked for a different uh developer where I was primarily doing 2.3 per bat. Okay. So that's, you know, five five times 500. Got it.

Yeah. So let's call it basically 100 to 150 stalls, you know, approximately that range. Um, you know, I previously worked for a different student house developer. We're looking at project Nan Arbor and the city actually asked us to put zero parking in the building um as well for 700 beds on that project. Um, but it's a little bit different when you start talking affordable market rate. Every different housing type has different pieces. So, um, like this affordable housing deal we're doing out in Ann Arbor, we're parking at 08 to one, um, maybe a little slightly over point eight, um, to one. Um, so, but when you're leasing these, you're going to market this the it is if it doesn't have parking that it's an add-on essentially.

Yes. And even with that affordable building, we are charging for parking in that scenario. Typically in any urban setting, you always charge for parking. It's just market standard on that piece. And so in theory, if someone comes to rent this, they have a car, they figure out they can't get a a spot. When will they find out that there's no spot available if it's capped out? I guess logistically, how would that work? And then they may determine that this isn't the appropriate rental for them, and they may decide to live further from campus where they can park potentially. But at what step in the process would they know? Would it be that they sign their lease, then they go to purchase a parking pass, and it's there is no parking available? How would that work?

It would be all part of the lease application. So, they'd know when they filled out an application if they they're applying for a parking as well, too. So, they would not they would not complete that process and spend the application fee if if there was no parking if if that was not what they wanted. Understandable. Thank you. Uh, and then for the for the coffee shop, is the plan to operate that in-house, bring in a third party, bring in a a Great question. Famous retailer.

Yeah, we've been talking to a couple local coffee shops. I can't necessarily say their names right now. And and we'll see how that comes fruition. Otherwise, we'll end up running in house at worst case. And so that would then have, you know, approximate hours, let's call it about 7 to two where the doors are open to the public to come in, utilize our lobby, you know, they can interact with, you know, our residents, all those things. We'll have a couple security doors for the residents to the elevators and different spots of the building, but generally our lobby will act as a a coffee shop. So, you can come in there, sit there, work if you live in another building, if you live in the Bailey neighborhood, whatever that may be, and and enjoy a coffee.

Okay. And then, I know I brought it up last time, circling back to the basketball court. Are are you wedded to that concept? Is that like what what's the impetus for that? Is there any other alternate uses you've potentially considered? You know, we we've talked about a little bit internally on that piece, too, but we just um we've seen it on other developments where people really see that as a true amenity. Um I myself, when I was a student, I played pickup basketball 5 days a week and I made a lot of friends through that piece. And so having that ability to to go downstairs and be able to exercise is is big for a lot of people. So we see it as a a big leasing advantage and an amenity that will, you know, make us differentiate our from our competitors as well too.

Understood. Thank you, vice chair.

I have a question about construction. I I read that um we'll start hopefully this summer and then it'll take two years. Um will all the parking spots that you have be unavailable for, you know, the current park spots as a structure of the Bailey lot? So will that be including the uh disabled spots? Will they be just out of commission for two years? Yeah, it they the parking may be able to turn over sooner. That'll be, you know, something to figure out. Maybe it's a year and eight months or so, but for primarily, yes. And so, we've had a couple of conversations with um some of the business owners, too, just understanding how that'll work. And so our goal would to be um what I've done on some previous projects and these you know especially urban settings is um getting a list of all the people in the community that want to be a part of that list business owners residents and send out every you know every Friday every other Friday here's an update of just where the building progress is you have my contact information you have our project management construction side and then what we would do is we would actually you know work with um these businesses to make sure that they still are trafficked frequently during the construction. So we'd work with them for wayfinding signs and making sure they still have access appropriately. The alley would stay open and we'd probably be looking to take part of the sidewalk and the parking lane on Elbert while still keeping the traffic open on Elbert, but minimize that much as much as possible. And our, you know, we're talking to two different GCs, but our um our construction experts, you know, know how to build in these urban settings and do it pretty frequently.

Thank you. Can I follow up on that? Um, during construction though, can you remind me if the city-owned part of the parking lot that's to the east? West. That's I thought it was east. Thank you. I heard someone say west. Um, that's to the east. That will remain open though. That is correct. Yes. We will not stage do anything with the the city surface lot. Okay. And then construction workers themselves would, you know, park in the division ramp, the St. Charles ramp. few of them might park in that that ramp too as well. So that'd be um at the same point additional revenue for the city on the parking side. Okay. And would you pay for those spots for them or do they have to pay for those spots?

It's typically worked out on specific trades. Sometimes the subcontractor with the general contractor works out in their contract of, hey, we're going to charge, you know, we want an extra $10,000 a month to cover our pdium for parking and things like that. So every contract is different.

Okay. Um and I did have one more question. I'm so sorry. Um the one of the things that um is pretty prominent in your proposal is the sort of um arts alleyway, the pedestrian alleyway, which is it already exists. Um and I think what you're what you're proposing is just to try to activate it a little bit more and make it more attractive. Um I guess my and you mentioned feston lights and a handful of other things. I guess my question is who's responsible for the maintenance of those items, right? Is that y'all or is that the city?

Yeah. So, any of the art would be on our property primarily, right? Um part of our conversation with arts commission is we have one spot for a piece or a sculpture. Um kind of that little triangle at the top right next to the basketball court. Um we have a little inlet there. Um, the arts commission is looking to put, you know, they have dollars to spend to put new art out. They could potentially put on our site, right?

And then they could, we'd work out an easement agreement for them to continue ownership, but they'd have the opportunity to put on our site. But any additional murals or any other art pieces would be our responsibility on our building. And the feston lighting, we'd likely hook up to our power source and be responsible for that. And then we have talked to the commercial property owner across the alley and they'd have no problem signing an agreement to allow us to um basically put clips into their building to string those back and forth. So yes, excellent. Can there's more on that? Can I ask a follow-up question? Have you been in that alley after 5:00? A lot. So you know it's just a parking lot for Uber Eats cars, right? Like it's really not an alley for pedestrians to

festune lighting. And you know that's the idea is to make it you know more pedestrian friendly and you know ideally it's for deliveries and that's hard to really enforce from any any side on that piece. Um one other thing I did want to note too is we talked to Kayla about this and this is right now there's two spots on Albert.

We would actually extend that to six spots on Albert to provide additional parking for the city and it'd be city metered city would own it all and everything like that. We just re when we redoing the curb and doing it all we'd align for that and plan for that piece. And um his thought in part of the city has this is you know basically your first 15 minutes are free and then you can extend from there. Some parts of the city are not 15 minutes free but this this area of the city typically has that. So that could be for an Uber driver for delivery to our building or you know neighboring buildings and things like that too. It just opens up more spaces for people to quick in and out.

One more follow-up question. I'm so sorry. Um the loading zone is also in the alleyway, correct? Yeah. So, we have um kind of our transformer area and everything down there in the south west corner. Um we would have our loading be right there for the coffee shop and everything like that. And again, it's not going to be a a big truck by any means for the small little coffee shop. But for moving for like moving vans and such are going to be rather large.

Yeah. So, for for moveins and things like that, what we'd look to do is we'd work out a you know, an agreement with the city. And this kind of happens too with the arts festival and the food truck festival happens in this parking lot. We basically say here are a couple days, you know, where we want, you know, this to be reserved for us to use for moveins and everything that so people could park in the the garage itself or maybe it's probably not the whole garage, but you know, so many stalls kind of side off for those move in days inside the garage. One quick followup question. So on Albert Street, there's currently a kiosk for the MSU Credit Union. Oh yeah. Will that remain?

Yes. So that's a title objection we're dealing with with the sellers right now um and getting that moved. And what we relayed to them um our last correspondence on that was we are open to potentially putting that back into the face of the building or relocating on site if we can find a mutually agreeable location. But it will have to move in some fashion. But um we are open to again keeping that on our site in some fashion or keeping it nearby. So again, we we try to be amendable a lot of things. Again, I'll go back to the engagement. We've met with, you know, the neighboring business owners three or four times. We met with all the council members that would meet with us um at that point and we met with everybody who was running for council that would meet with us beforehand and just trying to get as much feedback as possible through the process. So um you know, we want to be, you know, true partners in the community and talk to all the stakeholders we can. Thank you. Does anybody want to make a motion?

I'll make a motion. I think I don't I'm not going to guarantee a unanimous vote here, but I think we should put a motion in front of us and give everybody a little sense of where we are. Um Okay. Okay. For You want to

Yep. Want me to take it? So, I'm going to read from uh the packet here. I'm going to move to recommend approval by city council of a request I always have trouble that word. From a request request from do from Cody Dietrich on behalf of TDP Acquisitions LLC for approval of a special use permit for a new building with height exceeding eight stories at 530 Albert Avenue. The applicant request is to construct a 13-story development consisting of one, two, and threebedroom multifamily dwellings, groundf flooror commercial space, and two levels of interior parking for the following reasons. Uh number one, uh the proposed development does meet all applicable ordinance requirements. The proposal does meet the standards of review identified in sections 50-38 of the code of ordinances. And three, the proposed use of the property is compatible with surrounding land uses and will not adversely impact the use and enjoyment of adjacent properties. Um, if approved, please continue. It says in the note you want me to continue. We want to read this in. Yep. Okay. So if approved, approval is in accordance with the plans provided by the applicant and per testimony subject to revisions as required. All required permits shall be obtained from the department of planning, building and development for all interior renovations as well as for exterior signs. The staging area for the trash shall be screened. Rooftop mechanical units shall be screened. Number five of 11 uh a minimum of one 10- foot wide loading unloading space shall be provided. Number six, the project shall be

designed and developed in accordance with all applicable state and local statutes, codes and regulations. Seven, water and sanitary sewer extensions and connections shall be approved by the city engineer in accordance with all applicable state and local regulations. Number eight, the storm water detention facility shall be designed to accommodate a 100-year storm. The required calculations and storm man storm water management plan shall be approved by the city engineer. Compliance with the city's post construction storm water man management ordinance is required for all development and redevelopment of sites one acre or larger in size. Number nine, final grading, soil erosion control, paving and utility plans for the site shall be approved by a city engineer in accordance with all applicable requirements. Number 10, site lighting shall be installed in accordance with the requirements of sections 50-15 of the city code. And number 11, finally, uh, this approval shall take effect upon the filing of an executed memorandum of special use permit with the Ingam County Register of Deeds per section 50 hyphen 96 of the city code. There's one more. Be it further resolved that the applicant has demonstrated that on-site parking is necessary and the planning commission stipulates that up to 83 parking spaces shall be provided for the purposes for which those are intended and approved.

Okay. Thank you. All right. Moved by Commissioner Chapen. Is there a second? Second. Seconded by Commissioner Putts. Discussion. I have some thoughts, but anybody want to go first? Commissioner Lein. I always make the mistake of making a noise. You made a noise. I made a noise. Um, I have I lost my spot in here, too. I have I have serious concerns about the park I mean the parking, the height, and how it will impact um the surrounding businesses. Yes,

I also remain sort of confused, maybe concerned about the whether this really is going to meet the diverse housing requirements based on some of the verbiage used today. Um, I think my biggest hang-up if I look at the proposed motion, um, my biggest hangup is is part three that the property I don't believe is compatible with the surrounding land uses and will not uh adversely impact the use and enjoyment of adjacent properties. I also was pulling up our previous um housing study, if we can call it that, that that we had done in 2021, which is a long time ago, long time ago now. But one of the main findings from that is that we needed affordable um single family housing, not more apartments. And to me, this is just more apartments. Um, so I am inclined um to probably vote no on this, but um that is just my uh prerogative as it stands right now.

Anybody on this end?

I'll I'll put a counterpoint out. I think that's healthy. Um, so I am still fairly new to the planning commission, a little over two years, and we've heard from those in a neighborhood, those in a city common, I guess I might say. I'm not sure if that's the right word, but uh the residential areas, the the elementary school areas, if you will, Bailey, Marble, Glen, Karen, White Hills, um Donley, Donley's Meridian Township. But anyway, the neighborhoods that we consider traditional and the push back from the neighbors um for rental uh uh rental houses, rental opportunities. Uh, and I think this gets uh I think more housing is a good thing. Uh, this is rental. Uh, it it positions rental close to a walkable downtown uh quickly developing area. Um, and so as I've thought this through, I'm thinking about those that have been at the podium and talked to us about rental. Um, and this opportunity to build um, increased housing. Um, I do think that the more housing will enable the cost to go down. It's sort of econ 101 from my freshman year in college. I think the market will um will will, you know, will will dictate what the what the final cost of these apartments will be. So, I'm inclined to vote yes. I think it's a a healthy investment in our vibrant community and our vibrant downtown. Um and so I I would issue that counterpoint. Mr. partly

uh just to just to as far as the parking goes um essentially the the code prohibits new parking in downtown and the applicant's proposing 83. So either so the planning commission if you if you uh choose to approve tonight can either approve with 83 spaces or not approve those 83 spaces. You couldn't require more I should say. Just wanted to point that out. strictly prohibited to provide parking. Yeah. I I thought we had that in our motion. Yeah. Didn't we? It's in there. It's allowing them for extra. Yeah.

But that's the only way they can have park. We're basically making an exception for them. I see. Okay. That's what I thought. Okay. Yeah. Any other comments?

Yeah. I think I'm I I feel the comments I think from both of my fellow commissioners. I think I'm also really conflicted and troubled about um the way that the building is going to change the feel of downtown. Um, so I think in that way I agree with Commissioner Leine that it's, you know, fundamentally going to change how those businesses and how that area of downtown feels. Um, but I also agree that we really do need more housing. Um, and I think there's a lot of I gaps and sort of missing information still in this packet, but I also feel like judging by the applicants, I think a willingness to adjust and be flexible, especially with that diverse housing requirement. I think the willingness to um meet that however they can uh is really heartening to me um and makes me feel maybe a little bit more comfortable in voting yes on this project, but I'm still troubled.

All right, I'm going to chime in.

All right, and then please comment on on my comments. So, this comes right on the heels of us updating uh the comprehensive master plan. Uh that's that's always been the guiding light to me. There was a tremendous amount of feedback that went into that and the response was that we need housing and we overwhelmingly need housing downtown. Uh and a lot of folks just want a denser downtown core. Um I think the parking is a bit of an enigma that's going to take a culture shift and a different way of rethinking how that works. Um, I I just anticipate people that don't have a parking spot not not renting here. Um, it's an add-on to their lease. It's a way to potentially make leases cheaper. Um, I lived my sophomore year in a four-bedroom apartment. We had one parking spot. It was right across the street on on Division and Elbert there. Um, I think it's it's going to cater to people that potentially don't want a car or willing to pay more to be able to park a car somewhere else offsite. Um, I think the last time this came through, the concern was overwhelmingly the preservation of the surface parking lot to benefit the neighborhood that's there and the businesses that are there. There was I I dozens of people that showed up to to essentially protest

that application. And I do give kudos to this developer for going before the the neighborhood uh going before the wild goose in and trying to assuage as many of those concerns as they can to the point that this is the second hearing and we've had nobody show up and oppose this proposal. Um which for the density it's bringing and sort of the change it's bringing downtown I think is is pretty remarkable. Um I think they've done a good job of addressing concerns with the city staff. Um, I I am receptive to the supply and demand argument. I realize these are new units and they're going to be expensive and they have math they need to figure out to make their numbers work. I wish it was cheaper. I do appreciate that they're bringing the diversified housing and potentially bringing um incomequalified housing to this site. Um I do hope that that the city holds them accountable and holds them to that standard uh as a part of this deal. Um I love that they're preserving Chuck's ATM. Uh, that's a big that's a big that's a big deal for me.

That simplifies my life.

Yeah. You know, the the traffic study, those are all I don't I'm not a traffic engineer. I don't not a data analyst. Uh, just a Gov affairs guy. Those are those are interesting to me. Um, I can sort of see how that would work, but also not like the people that are living there potentially don't have a car, so you're bringing less people into downtown. I don't know, maybe that math works, maybe it doesn't. I don't know. Um, but that's not a deal breakaker for me. Um, you know, diversified housing is good. Uh, on the housing study, I remember being in those meetings and talking to the consultant and she said, um, the thing we need least is new apartments downtown. I think MSU's changed, but uh the number one thing she said that's always stood with me or um landed with me is uh the number one thing you can do is not the bad worst thing you can do is not build anything.

And that's what ultimately we've essentially done downtown for the last I don't know five, six, seven, eight years is not built anything. And we've gotten to the point where rent is so unbelievably expensive and unattainable for a lot of people. Uh, and I think it's something we just have to add more housing to to resolve. Um, and I'm I'm glad that there isn't a lot of opposition to this. So, uh, I'm convinced it's needed. Uh, and another thing I just want to say is I'm viewing this sort of independently from the Howard because that's the only thing I can do right now. This is the only thing that's before us. And,

uh, you know, it reminds me back in the day when we reviewed the the medical marijuana uh, and there was a provision that said only a certain amount could be close to each other. I think they had to be a certain amount of feet away from each other and we would approve a couple in that different area and then ultimately those went to council and somehow one was selected and and that process was resolved and that's the standard we held then and and I believe that that's how we should consider this proposal now is independently of itself. Um so that's where my mind's at. I'm happy to hear any counterpoints or other thoughts on this and then I think we should take a vote so we can get home. It's cold out. Commissioner Hendricks.

So I hear a lot of expensive uh

is that better? So one thing I wanted to say is anytime when they're looking at this type of project um they got to do a market study. So when they're doing these rents, no bank is going to accept something that's outrageous. they got to come with backup information, documentation proving that. So, I just wanted to say that to say that it it may not be so expensive cuz I see where their point is. Um, and I don't want that to drive us to say that we don't want to do this cuz it's too high. Um, another thing I like to point out too, um, and you said it as well, the chair, um, anytime new development comes in play, and I would say with downtown East Lansson, we had some larger projects that came in front of us that got approved. In order to get those rents flatter, it is bringing new construction here. Anytime that new construction comes in play, they then have to back up and reflect back and look at their rents um, other developers. So, I just wanted to give my two cent with that just cuz I know I do it every day. So,

it's good context. Thank you. All right. Any other comments? Are we ready to vote? We get a roll call vote, Mr. Bartley. Call vote. Thank you. Uh, we have a motion made by Chapen and seconded by Putts to approve with several uh conditions. Um, Commissioner Chapen, how do you vote? Yes. Commissioner Denalt, yes. Commissioner Hendricks, yes. Commissioner Lein, no. Commissioner Overby, yes. Commissioner Puts, yes. Vice Chair Wagner, no. Chair Sullivan, yes.

The eyes have it. Thank you. Um, that concludes this item. This is now on to city council for a to be determined meeting. Okay. Uh, appreciate the conversation. Um, thanks for working our way through that one. Um, that takes us on to new business. Item 8.1, consideration of proposed ordinance 1556, an amendment to section 50-147 to require the finished side of events to face away from the property. And we do have one item of unfinished though, which is to consider a date change. Back to item 7.2. changed the date of the scheduled October 28th meeting to accommodate early voting.

Thank you. And I I hadn't added an A, so that's it totally makes sense why you wouldn't have seen that one. Uh but I think I mentioned at the last meeting, um early voting is going to be in this room on October 28th, and uh the clerk's office and and parks and recck uh department have asked us if we can reschedu. Uh they're available on October 21st for the same room, same time, which is a week prior. I'm wondering if the commission would be amendable to rescheduling that meeting to that date. And if if you are, it would just take a uh it would take a motion, but a very simple motion of I move to reschedule the October 28th meeting to October 21st. I move to reschedule the October 28th meeting to October 21st. Thank you.

Moved by Commissioner Lee, seconded by Commissioner Who was it? Overby. I didn't putts. All right. Seconded by Putts. Okay. Um, any discussion? Yes, I I have a counterpoint. No, I'm just kidding. You want October 20th? Halloween. You want Halloween? Halloween. I full support. Okay. Just noting it is a meeting backtoback weeks, but I think we can make it work. So, um, all right. All those in favor say I. I. I. Oppos? Nay. No. No. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to be out of town, but she's going to be out of town. one. No, but the eyes have it. Motion carries.

All right. Now, on to new business. So, just as a correction, and correct me, but I was loading these minute these meeting dates on my calendar and there's one on here for July 23rd and the the the Wednesday of that week is the 22nd. Is is this a mistake or or is this Oh, or is this actually the date of the meeting? Our intent was all Wednesdays. So, uh that would be a mistake. Okay. And we'll correct that. It would be the Wednesday of that, right? That that week. So, July 22nd. Yeah. We'll make that change. And uh I guess I'll ask everyone to check your calendar to make sure July 22nd will work and we'll uh reconsider next meeting if we need to.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Uh now on to unless there's any other calendar related items to discuss uh takes us on to uh 8.1 consideration of proposed ordinance 1556 an amendment to section 50-147 to require the finished side of a fence to face away from the property. Uh Mr. Bartley or Miss Wright.

Um yep. So this uh this item came before you last time um and for a public hearing there was no uh comment. Um, this originated from the historic district commission and uh, essentially they would propose to have to require the finish side of a fence to face out when there is a finished side. Uh, for all properties across the city if approved. Uh, we also uh, staff added a section to say you can you can finish both sides if you'd like to. Um, are there any questions? I don't know if I need to. There's there's no update since the last update. That's the last question I had. Um, any questions? Is there Oh, Mr.

So, Landon, the completely hypothetical question for you. If we were in a world where we had a form-based code, yes. Would this be would this still be an ordinance or would this be a part of a formbased code like this this requirement in your mind? I'm not asking you to make like a like an official decision. Sure. In your mind,

I I would see I mean a formbased code is is essentially just saying that you're going to design your building based on what the street looks like. And it's it's uh it's essentially it's interaction with a street with a public space. Um so I would say that the fence probably would be in the same along the same lines as saying what's the interaction to the public space? We'd want the finished side facing that, but it it wouldn't be considered. I guess I would just see this as sort of a separate requirement like you'd see in most normal ordinances, nonform the form base code would be more the guidelines and the ordinance would be the enforcement something like that.

Yeah, I mean the form the form base is really just saying what's the form the form of the building is more important than the use. So I I would say that this in in most codes you're going to have the form-based code for your buildings and then you'll have a sca sort of okay a scattering of of other rules that would be general provisions. I would see this as one of those. Okay. So does that make sense? Thank you for hearing me. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Thank you. Okay. Is there a motion? I'll move I motion to recommend approval by city council of ordinance 1556 an amendment to section 5147 of the zoning ordinance to require the finished side of a fence to face away from the property.

Second.

Okay. Uh motion by Vice Chair Wagner, seconded by Commissioner Denalt. Um discussion. I have some strong thoughts about this. Does anybody want to go first? I don't I mean I don't really have anything like super poignant on this. Like it I guess the question that just comes to mind is what are we really trying to fix here? Because like I I understand having the pretty side of the fence out is is a nice and desirable thing. I'm just like, oh, this this feels a little bit like somebody had a neighbor do something that annoyed them and then that it it kind of progressed down the pipeline and I'm not taking shots at anybody at all. Um, but I I guess I just I don't know. I'm

I'm on the fence about it. I was waiting for that. Don't use that. You might have you might have topped last week. So, that's all I got.

I'll just Thank you for that. I I'll just chime in. I just I just don't think this should be um in the ordinance. Um I think it's a good neighborly practice to do. I think most people should do it. I understand that not everybody has the option to do it in my opinion. Mr. Bartley may disagree, but there are certain circumstances where he might not have room or might have a dispute with the neighbor. Um, I do however think that the city should update their their fence one pager, which is really a two-pager, I think. So, maybe we should rename it too. But just to add a little part in there as a QA to say that it's a recommended practice to put the finished side of the fence facing outward. I think that's a good solution to this.

Um, I know you pointed out Grand Rapids, but from my cursory research, it's not really a common provision in in ordinances. Um, and even if we were to um, have this as an ordinance, I think it would require some clarification on what, you know, the the finish side is and things like that. Um, I think there's also a cost impact on people. I think not everybody can afford to to build the fence this way. And I think, you know, that should be considered as well. And ultimately, it's voting on an aesthetic um aspect of what a fence should look like and not really any safety issue or noise issues, which in the past when we voted on fence provisions, that's what we voted on is is um sight lines for traffic or um softening the noise of a pickle ball court or something like that. So, um I'm I'm in opposition to it with the the caveat that I think this the city should update their fence guide. So, any other comments before we vote?

Well, let's let's uh so I I'd kind of buy into your logic and simplify it, put it in the fence uh guidelines, if you will, so that Spartan Fence or whoever is building a fence goes there and makes that decision. So, um how are we going to how let's take advantage of this moment to get it into the fence guidelines is what I'm saying. Yeah. So, can we modif ordinance and then have a new motion? I how do how do you want to do that? I don't think we need to. I think we've recommended to city staff that that's the approach they take and I I happen to trust Mr. Barley. That makes sense. Take action on this. So, all right. Okay.

So, I want to vote with you. Whatever you're going to vote on, we'll see. Yeah. So, we're going to do a roll call vote. It's going to be You can't just follow it. Yeah. Yeah. Wait. So, can I ask you Joseph? You said you you looked at several of the communities. I did. Yeah. Um, what was the end of your search? How many? Oh, I did like four or five. I looked at Ann Arbor. I looked at Grand Rapids. Didn't see it, but I missed it because Mr. Barley said it's in there. I looked at Meridian. I looked at Lancing. So, those are the ones that I looked at and I didn't see any similar provision in those. Um, okay. Thank you. So, that was about as far as I made it. So, capital region some big I've tried to look through Detroits and gave up. I think at that point.

So anyways, can we do a a roll call vote unless there's any other comments or questions? Okay. Okay. Uh we have a motion to recommend approval made by Wagner. Uh seconded by Denalt. Um and that is Commissioner Chapen. How do you vote? No. No. Commissioner Denalt, how do you vote? No. Thank you. Commissioner Hendris, no. Commissioner Lein, no. Commissioner Overby, no. Commissioner Putts, no. Vice Chair Wagner, yes. And Chair Sullivan, no. The naysay have it last before you voted yes. I was going to say nobody's on the fence. So, but

he's still on the fence. You took my opportunity away. See, I I think having some split votes is a healthy thing. I really do. Yeah. I second that. So, uh, I believe this item is still on to city council, correct? With the recommendation not to approve. Yes. Okay. Well, that's where we'll end that one. All right. That takes us on to item number nine, commissioner concerns. Any concerns or comments from commissioners? I would like to acknowledge uh Commissioner Line, who recently earned her PhD.

Another doctor. special accommodation. That's a very big accomplishment. So, public health, congratulations. I appreciate that. Thank you. Congratulations. It's an honor to sit next to you. You're very kind. Now, we just need one more person to get a PhD and the doctors will outnumber everyone. Yeah. All right. Seeing no other comments. Appreciate that. Um let's uh make a motion to adjurnn. So moved. Moved by Commissioner Puts. Second. Seconded by Commissioner Dr. Leine.

All those in favor vote I nay. Eyes have it. We just kidding. Oh well motion all night. We are adjourned at 8:13 p.m. All right.