Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

We're gonna start with roll call. So let's start with Nancy. I'm here. Okay. Laura. Present. Laura Moore. And Josh Gerlis. Here. I'm here. Brian Daniels. Here. And Glenn Connolly.

Here.

Okay. Thank you very much. So this month is am I close enough to the mic? This month is, deaf history month, April. So I'm gonna read a, a statement here real quick, an acknowledgment of the month.

During deaf history month, we honor the rich culture achievements and contributions of the deaf and hard of hearing community across North Carolina. Our state has a long meaningful history of advancing deaf education and advocacy including the '19 the 1894 founding of the North Carolina School of the Deaf in Morganton, one of the earliest state supported schools of its kind in the nation. Its historic campus and longstanding commitment to language access and inclusion education have shaped generations of deaf students. We also recognize influential North Carolinians whose leadership strengthened access, equity, and community connections statewide, including William H. Peace, the first director of the state's division of services for the deaf and hard of hearing, and John E.

Crutchfield, a key leader in North Carolina Association of the Deaf. Their work helped expand communication access and advance the rights of deaf residents across North Carolina. Organization throughout the state, including the Division of Services for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing, the North Carolina Black Deaf Advocates, the deaf seniors and youth groups continue to build community, expand resources, and promote American Sign Language and Deaf culture. This month and every month, we reaffirm our commitment to accessibility, inclusion, and respect for the diverse experiences of Deaf and hard of hearing individuals. We celebrate their history, honor their contributions, and continue working towards a more equitable North Carolina for all.

Okay.

So what's next? Secretary Reed's procedures?

I'll now read into the record the following. The commission operates under NC general statutes one sixty d dash nine forty, which gives local governments historic preservation authority, and the Chapel Hill Land Use Management Ordinance, including article three, which established the local historic districts and sets forth regulations governing them, and the Chapel Hill Historic District's design principles and standards, which sets forth standards for changes in the historic districts, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Chapel Hill Historic District Commission, as well as the significance reports from all three historic districts and photographs. I also call to your attention each of the applications and associated materials in your agenda packet. All of these items are hereby entered into the record. Thank you.

K. Thank you. Now for the, I'm gonna read the public charge. Public charge, the advisory board pledges its respect to the public. The body asked the public to conduct themselves in a respectful, courteous manner both with the body and with fellow members of the public.

Should any member of the body or any member of the public fail to observe this charge at any time, the chair will ask the offending person to leave the meeting until that individual regains regains personal control. Should the quorum fail to be restored, the chair will recess the meeting until a genuine commitment to this public charge is observed. Property owners may represent themselves or be represented by attorney. However, professionals such as architects, engineers, designers, and others may provide factual evidence and expert opinions so far as they are qualified, but not legal arguments on behalf of the property owner. Alright. Approval of the agenda. Are there gonna be any amendments to the agenda?

I just have a question.

Yes, ma'am.

Were there no minutes from last month even to indicate what we were carrying over?

No. We haven't done minutes for the March meeting because most of that was for through West Cameron. So we're going to draft those minutes. And I think our plan is to either have them at the special meeting or the May meeting.

Okay. I just thought there should be something that said what happened in terms of we're going to carry it over. Just documented there because there was a motion.

Well, I think we did, as the people in this audience know, carried over to to this agenda and set up the special session on April 30. But we don't have minutes saying it, but I I think me saying that puts it in the record.

That was all I was. Yeah. Because it was something that did happen.

And as part of our announcements, so so I'll just do this now during approval of agenda. I just wanted to apologize to anyone in the crowd that's had to come back again because this version of the HTC does not want to make it a standard procedure to leave people hanging from month to month. So we apologize for any inconvenience you may have encountered from our last meeting. So back to the agenda.

Well, have an announcement, which is this will be my last meeting. I've been on since 2019. It has been a pleasure and a privilege. I've learned I moved here in 'eighteen. And 'nineteen came around.

They said there was an opening on the historic district commission, which I had been on a similar body where I lived before. And I thought, well, they'll never what do I know? So I was appointed. And I have learned so much about this town, about its history. And I've worked with so many people who are really committed to this, including the staff and our lawyer, with whom I do not always agree. But anyhow, thank you for the opportunity. And thank you for the plant. I'll try to keep it alive.

Well, I wanna go back and we'll end up saying some things about Nancy during the announcements. But the approval of the agenda, does anybody want to approve?

I move we approve the agenda.

Is there a second?

Second.

You second? Okay. All in favor, say aye. Aye. Okay. Agenda is approved. Now announcements, Shanika and Scott, do you guys have any announcements?

We don't have any announcements.

Okay. Well, I'm gonna go back to Nancy real quick then as part of the announcements. I'm really one of the newest ones here, and I think Josh and Brian probably could give us a little bit of history. But I really appreciated my short time here, you being a part of it.

Thank

you. You've given great counsel. Really appreciate you. Thank you. And I inherited your guidelines with your cheat notes in it.

Which I think Nancy actually had a big role in helping draft. So your legacy will carry on in making sure that we've got the right principles moving forward.

Well, It was really Josh. That

Well, as well as your efforts in terms of outreach and education. Those will have a long lasting impact also. Thank you.

Well, if there's not any more announcements, are there any petitions?

There are not.

No petitions. Okay. Well, let's move on to item number one, administrative COA approvals and maintenance work. This isn't anything that you guys are gonna make a presentation as I understand this evening.

No. This is just an information item for the commissioner's awareness.

Okay. Very good. And it it came in email form, so thank you. Got that. Looked that over. So let's go to old old business, which is 208 Glendon Drive. While while they're setting that up, is there anyone in the commission in the commissioners that have to recuse themselves? Any conflicts? Okay. I finally remembered. I think I'm good. I'm I'm slow, but I'm older. Right.

I've known a couple of people who have lived in this house in the past going back to 1982 in this very same house without the addition on the left. But I don't think I have to recuse self on that.

No. No. You're good. Before we get started, I need to, give you an affirmation. If you can say I do and then tell us your name. Okay? I affirm that the evidence I shall give to the historic district commission on the referenced application shall be the truth and nothing but the truth. I so affirm.

I so affirm. Sean Murphy. Thank you.

All right. Sure, sure.

Well, I'll get into it. Thank you for having me here tonight. And also thank you all for bumping that other case to a special meeting. I know that is more of your volunteer time. So I do appreciate that to keep the process moving along. And Nancy, thank you for your service. I learned a lot from you during my time on the commission.

Thank you, Sean.

Okay, so I'll get into my application. My name is Sean Murphy. My wife and I have lived at 208 Glandon Drive in the Kimgoal Historic District for about nine years now. During that time, we really enjoyed our house and living in the neighborhood. We came before the commission when we first moved in to do a little addition to connect two disparate parts of the house that were connected by a breezeway, but haven't been back since that time.

So tonight what I'm proposing before you is really a hardscaping and landscaping project. We are not touching the existing house at all. So it's really just site improvements and changes. So this is just a map showing the National Historic Registry, where the home is located. It was built, I think we've narrowed it down to 1927, by UNC professor George Critz and his wife Wilma.

The main house is much the way it was when it was originally built. We haven't made really many changes to the exterior or the interior. This is just the North Carolina preservation map showing the property there. It is on the corner of Glandon Drive and Evergreen Lane. And our property fronts Glandon Drive with we look over Battle Park.

This is just the Orange County real estate maps. A little bit clearer shows our adjoining properties as well as a little more detail on Battle Park. This is a map just showing our directly adjacent neighbors that were notified for this application. So 214 Glandon Drive right next door. 220 Glandon Drive, which we share a rear property line with.

705 Gimgall Road, which is directly across Evergreen Lane from our property. And then 707 Gimgall Road, which our properties share a small overlap at Evergreen Lane. Here's a photograph of each of those properties. So our direct neighbor to 14 Glandon Drive. Directly below that is 707 Gimgoole Road, which is across Evergreen Lane from us.

And then we share a rear yard with 220 Glandon Drive. Glandon Drive has a frontage on Glandon. And then they have the rear property. We see the two garages on Evergreen Lane. Similarly for Gimgall, they actually are on the corner of Gimgall and Glandon. So the first picture is their frontage on Gimgall. And the second is their frontage on Glandon Drive. Just to give you some perspective of the neighbors. Just a site survey of our home. It really is the original dwelling down on the south side of the sheet, 1927.

And then what says addition, that was the addition we put in in two thousand and nine years ago, somewhere around there. And then there was a two story garage addition that was built in the '90s. They were connected by a breezeway. So we connected those to make it a single structure. So just to go through the scope of the work that we're proposing, there's a few maintenance items and a few items that are not really under the purview of the HTC. But when I spoke to staff, we said let's include them all so we can get a scope of the whole project. So there's two existing stone columns at the corner of Glandon Drive and Evergreen Lane. We're just repairing those. We're not changing them at all. We're removing a few trees.

So there's two pine trees, two beech trees, and a miscellaneous tree that's sort of leaning over the road that we're going to remove. And then we're removing a main entry step that just is settling over time, but we're replacing that exactly in kind. And then the items that I'm seeking your approval for tonight is to remove there's an existing slate walkway along the front of the property that we'd like to replace with brick, roughly in the same location. And then there's a wood step that was put in when we did that addition back eight or nine years ago. And we're just going to it's rotting and getting old.

And we want to replace that with a brick stoop. And then we want to there's an existing set of stone steps. I call them the stone steps to nowhere and a path that connects those. So I'll show you that. We'd like to remove those. And then we're going to install a set of new steps from the front entrance to the house down to Glandon Drive. And I can walk you through that in the pictures a little more. And then associated with that, we're just taking some of the existing landscape lighting and reconfiguring it. But we're not really changing that at all either. So if you look at the plan I tried to make it as clear as possible.

But I'll start here on this plan. Number one at the corner are those two existing. So that would be in your lower right. Those are those two existing stone columns at the corner of Glandon Drive and Evergreen Lane. And then I've identified the two pine trees, two beech trees, this miscellaneous tree that we're planning on removing.

And I have a photograph of that as well. And then if we move on, number three is the front step that we're just replacing in kind. And then four shows the layout of the existing slate walkway along the front of the house that we want to replace with brick. The bright pink number five shows that single wood step that we want to replace with a little brick stoop to match the walkway. And then six shows that set of stone steps along with some loose laid slate walking stones that I installed a few years ago that we'd like to remove.

This shows just the new configuration of that brick walkway. It's essentially the same location. I think our impervious area changes about 2% on the site. I already have a zoning compliance permit for that. We just straightened out the brick walkway just for simplicity and for lack of waste of the brick material.

Because it obviously is in a linear pattern versus the slate, which is a little more forgiving and has some curves. And then you see number seven is a single set of stone steps at the top that steps down to a new lawn area, and then a brick pathway that connects to another small set of steps right at the street level. So we've broken up that grade change, which you'll see with a larger set of steps at the top, and then a smaller one down by the roadway. The pathway is curved a bit to avoid that large oak tree. We have three significant oak trees in the front yard that we're going to maintain.

So that is the reason for the curve there. And several other houses in the neighborhood that do have significant grade changes do have a similar set of steps. And they do sort of curve the walkway and steps to account for some of the topography. So I'll show you a few pictures. I tried to go in order here.

Over on the left, you see those two stone columns. They're missing stones sort of at the corners and some other areas. And both of those columns have been hit repeatedly by cars and trucks over the years. So both of them are sort of resting precariously. We move them back every few years into position.

So we're just going to reset those and fill in the stones where they're missing. And that will essentially remain an entrance to a new grass area. But that will still be an entrance into the yard. And then the second picture, you can see the tree on the far left is a tree that's leaning towards the street. Its sister tree was about 50 feet away a few years ago, leaning similarly, and Duke Power came and took it down for us.

Excuse Excuse me. We really don't have any say so over trees.

Right.

So, you know, we could probably just skip the trees.

Okay. Sounds good to me. So I'll go on to number three. Number three is the front step. That step, it's an original step. But every few years, it sinks about another threefour of an inch. So you can see the large gap there. It's about three inches now. I keep chiseling it out and filling it with concrete. So we're just going to replace that step, being kind. Just remove it. It probably doesn't have a foundation underneath it, so it keeps sinking. Number four is the major work. You can see we have some slate tile at the front entry. And then we also have a series of loose laid it's just loose laid and gravel slate walkway.

Here's looking in the other direction from the driveway and from the lobby. So this is opposite ends of the property. There's a bit of a concrete walk that goes to the side entry door there. We're planning on removing that section of concrete, as well as all of the slate down across the front of the house. And our major reason for removing the slate is because when it gets wet, it is incredibly slippery. We've had four or five people fall on it since we've owned the house, and a lot more near misses. And we've tried everything. We've replaced some pieces of it. We've tried grinding it. But it's just very slick.

Even this time of year when you get a little pollen on it, and then it gets a little wet in the morning or after rain, it's very slippery. Just another picture of that walkway at the front entrance. And then number five is the secondary step. So we installed this, what was supposed to be a temporary wood step when we did that. It connected to two parts of the house a few years ago. It's pretty much a trip step now because it's only a single step. So when people are coming in and out of the door, there's no landing for them to stand on. And so we're just going to create a small landing to stand on. But no coverage of it. No modifications of the house.

This is the only thing we're planning on removing. This is this old set of stone steps. You can see the steps are in fairly good condition. But there's a little section of walkway that I'm not sure where it actually used to go. Maybe it was all stone at some point. But when we moved in, this was all covered with ivy and dirt from years of just not being used. So we uncovered it. And then I put that walkway in a few years ago. But no one uses it, even the FedEx people. They just park right out front and they run right up through the Ivy now, which is where we're planning on putting the new steps.

So the picture on the left shows where we're planning on putting the new steps coming directly from Glandon Drive. A bit of a circuitous route on an angle up to the front door. And then I just have a couple other photos to show you the grade change that we have in front of the house there. Example of the brick walkways that we would plan on installing. So a running bond, setting concrete, very similar to what's at many locations in the neighborhood.

Proposed steps. Our direct neighbor, 214 Glandon Drive. So we'd be proposing just what they have, which is a set of stone steps with stone cheek walls. And I'll show you several other pictures. This is the existing landscape lighting, which was original when we moved in. And we've added a few lights. And we'll just add a few more for this. This is two doors down. So this is 226 Glandon. This is their railing.

I don't know whether code is going to require us to do a railing, but we would like to put a railing on the upper stair set of steps. I'll try and go through these quickly. This is the most similar to ours in the neighborhood. This is 246 Glandon Drive, so about five houses away. They have a very similar front yard area where they have the asphalt of the road, a gravel patch.

Then they have a loose stone wall with a few stone steps leading to a brick pathway. So this is exactly what we're proposing. A few other pictures just of these are the three neighboring sets of steps. And I did go all the way around the neighborhood and took a picture of every house. There's 38 houses in the neighborhood, 37 that are actually on Glandon or Gimgall.

And they all have a very most of them have a very similar configuration of stone steps, brick walkways. I think there's 19 or 20 brick walkways out of the 37. So it's a little over 50%. And then there's, I think, that are slate. And then there's seven or eight that are Chapel Hill gravel or concrete, a mix.

And there's a couple on Ridge Lane, which is the Center Road, which don't really they have a combination of things. I'm going to leave it at that and let you all ask questions. What

color brick are you proposing to use? In your pictures, you showed like a red brick one and then kind of like a ochre gold, brownish colored, gray one?

We were going to use a red brick with some flash in it, which is the most typical in the neighborhood and throughout Chapel Hill.

Because if you're replacing the effect of the stone, it seems like the grayish would be more consistent with what you have there now.

Yeah, I think we were going to propose similar to this 704 Gimgall, which is most typical in the neighborhood. So it is a red brick with a decent amount of firing.

Nancy, I think blending the red brick with the stone walls and other stone components is pretty typical, as you can see from your photographs. I don't have an issue with that, but I think it's nice. Anybody have any questions, comments? Yes, ma'am.

I like the new walkway. I think that's gonna be great for you. I just wanna make sure that you knew how many steps it was gonna take. Your driveway looks really steep. And have you done a quick calculation on how many steps you'll need?

We did. I mean, I'm an architect by training, but we did have a landscape architect look at it. And those steps were based upon their initial calculation. We originally had three sets of steps, like a central set. We're within one riser of what we have on the plans.

Great. That's perfect. Thank you.

Thank you.

Well, I thought it was a very thoughtful presentation, by the way.

And and

and I like your considerations for your improvements as well, the hardscape and the softscape. So we're gonna close out the question session then. Is anybody from the public here to talk about this? It doesn't look like it, so we'll close the public hearing and talk amongst ourselves. Josh, what do you think?

I think it is pretty sensitive. I do know that that sort of combination of short steps at Glandon and a taller set of steps closer to the house is something that is common if you are familiar with that area. So I think this is a good solution because it does replicate other solutions historically in this area. I think that the color of the brick, we can't discuss color. But I kind of agree with Nancy.

I think that with the natural part of the setting that an ochre or a less formal brick could be very successful. I think the ones we're looking at at Gimgul are pretty formal houses. I mean, these are the houses that front Gimgul

are

axially symmetrical. Most of them are very symmetrical. And so a red brick walkway is very appropriate for that. I think in this case, with the meandering walkway through a yard area, I think a softer color could be successful. But we can't talk about color. I just encourage the applicant to think about it. Other than that, I think it's really good, really good, really good upgrade to the front of that house.

I agree. Yeah. And I'm torn in the brick color thing because it is meandering, like you say, which is less which is not as formal. Mhmm. But at the same time, it's a colonial style, which is kinda I don't have a problem matching that with a brick paver. So Right.

And the flash in the brick will will help modify the redness of it. So the flash may help.

We can't tell you this, but I'm going tell you this. Don't go orange, whatever you do. Stay red or earthy tones or flash. Yeah. Okay.

I'll just say part of the reason we're doing the red brick is because the front stoop and the step and everything is already red brick. And I didn't want to introduce a third color material. So that's a good point. Excellent

point. Okay. Are there any more questions? Does anyone want to make a motion?

I'll make a motion that the application of 208 Glendon Drive is not incongruous with the special character of the historic district and that we should authorize the chairperson to issue and sign a COA for this application as well.

Second that.

And there's a second. So all in favor? Aye. All opposed? Okay. Everyone's aye. Thank you very much.

Thank you all. Have a good night. Appreciate it. Okay.

209 North Bounder Street. And there again, while they're coming up, I need to ask, are there any conflicts? Any recusals? Okay.

What's the fireplace at the bottom? Are you gonna open the images in the middle of the presentation or at the beginning or at the end?

Probably kind of in the middle.

Okay. Yeah. I'm gonna go ahead and open them all.

Okay. Sounds good.

So then they'll they'll be here. So you might have to flip through

Okay.

To see which one is which because it'll all be in a different window. So here's your presentation. It's in speaker mode. They see down there what you see there. Okay. If you need to use your cursor, you can shoot it over, and it'll be on the screen. Okay. And then you can just use the arrows or on the laptop. Thanks. We'll be here if you

need to Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Before you guys jump into it, I need to read you the affirmation. I found

that the evidence Don, is your mic on? Is your mic on?

There you go. Sorry. I was making jokes earlier. I had to turn it off. I affirm that the evidence I shall give to the historic district commission, and the referenced application shall be the truth and nothing but the truth I so affirm.

I so affirm.

Sasha Berghausen. Thank you.

I so affirm Jennifer Hoffman.

Thank you. Okay. It's all yours. Okay.

Good evening. As I said, my name is Sasha Berghasm, and I'm presenting this proposed renovation of 209 North Boundary. This house was built around 1920 by Brody Stuart Thompson. Thompson built the Stroud Building on East Franklin Street, which is currently Sutton's Drugstore, Moorhead Planetarium, and the house directly across the street from here, among many other projects. But he was he was a notable builder.

The current owners are doctor Wesley Burks. He's a distinguished professor of pediatrics at UNC Hospital, and his wife, missus Jan Burks, a retired attorney. Here's a street view looking down boundary. The subject property is on the left about midway down, and these are the neighboring houses. The one that I mentioned that Brody also built is 206 North Boundary in the lower left hand corner there.

So the twenty twenty five Sanborn map was the first one that the house appears on. You can see it kind of mid block right in the center there. The site hasn't changed a whole lot. There have been two additional lots that have been added to the south of that of the subject property. The opposite side of the street is is unchanged.

The buildings on the property are also where they've always been. There's a little outbuilding, And then you can see the house itself has a central portion, a big rectangle, which is labeled as a two story, and everything else is a one story. There are side porches. And there's a bump out in the back. So we see in this Sanborn map that that bump out is still present.

It looks to me from the change in the siding material which doesn't match primary residence, and a major elevation change in the floor level, which leaves a kind of funny little knee wall down in the basement on top of the existing brick foundation suggests that the footprint probably hasn't changed, but the what's in that bump out on the rear has been substantially reconfigured over time. I don't know exactly when. So here's that bump out that I mentioned. This is the area that we're proposing renovating. The project is imperative because the owners would like to age in place, and they don't have a primary suite on the 1st Floor.

And new health concerns have made this an even more urgent challenge. So we can also take this opportunity to move a couple of functions that are presently in the basement, including the laundry and a workout room upstairs. So the team that's undertaking this effort is myself. I'm an architect, owner of Block Architecture in Durham, and Jennifer Hoffman, who's a general contractor and interior designer. I'll be discussing the addition and reconfiguration of that bump out that we'd like to undertake, and Jennifer will talk about replacement windows, which is another wish of the owner.

Little background on myself. I've practiced in Durham since 2001. I launched my firm in 2010 shortly after getting licensed. I've done numerous historic renovations in Durham, many of which have required a COA. And after renovating my personal residence, which is in this photo, I got a pine preservation award and also succeeded in getting this listed as one of fewer than a 100 properties in Durham.

That's a local historic landmark. It was built out of Washington Duke's mansion when it was torn down. So that's the historic fabric is pretty significant. And Jennifer Hoffman actually worked on renovating a bathroom in the house right across the street that I mentioned before that Thompson also built. And she was the lead designer for the study center, which is in the lower right.

Obviously took required HDC approval. And this is located it's a UNC owned building located in the same Franklin Rosemary historic district as the residents we'd like to modify. So I know that HTC doesn't have purview of the interior, but really it was interior considerations that have motivated the renovation I'm proposing. And that was because I wanted to keep circulation in the house organized in public stair hall while simultaneously mediating a major elevation change between the primary level, which is 21 inches below the floor and the bump out. So you see there on the left that French door goes into the current bump out and it leaves off of a landing that's three risers up.

So getting that floor level back down so that we can create a 1st Floor primary suite is what we're trying to do. And I also looked to find a way to fit the hallway that goes back to the renovation underneath that stair in the photo. So here's a site plan of the house as it currently sits. That dark gray rectangle is the two story portion of the house and all the light gray are the one story portions. Side porch on the south, screen porch.

There's an inset screen porch on the north as well as the kitchen and then that bump out in the back. This rose garden that's kind of the hourglass shape on the left is something that the owner would like to preserve. So that was another motivating factor for the form that we've chosen which is to avoid going too far into the rear yard and instead to do a cross gable that runs kind of parallel to the existing house. So the dark gray or the gray rectangle here is the addition that would be added to the bump out. This orientation enables it to be set off as distinct from the original footprint while simultaneously keeping the organization of the house compact and not extending too far into the rear yard.

This is the existing house first floor plan, and it also shows the basement bump out on the right. So in the basement is the workout room. There's kind of barely enough head height to pull off using the basement as an occupiable space. And the washing machines are literally just on the Basement Floor. Both of these functions are accessed via the central stair that is really quite steep and barely tucked in underneath the primary stair that goes up to the 2nd Floor.

So it's a little bit challenging to navigate, especially for elderly people. So here's the proposed change to the floor plan. So it would this the workout room would be brought up to the into the bump out onto the 1st Floor of the bump out, and the stair landing would then descend down into the workout room. And we would have a primary suite with all door push pull clearances and clear floor areas compliant with ANSI standards for accessibility. So this slide shows a comparison of the existing elevations lined up with the proposed in the orientation such that they're aligned.

So basically, we're adding the bar of new program that we're adding is across gable, and we're essentially extruding the existing gable over the bump out further into the yard. And on the north side, there's a step back in the foundation, a minimal four inch, you know, brick modular step back so that the old and the new are differentiated from each other. All the windows in the in this renovation in this bump out would be new because as we lower the floor level 21 inches, we've also gotta bring the the windowsill level down or it would be kind of comically high in the addition. And because of the shape, we now have an east elevation, which we didn't have. So this is facing back towards the existing house.

That high window goes into a shower. But by creating this kind of L shaped addition, we keep the big window into the existing living room free and bringing in a nice amount of light like it currently does. So, the important ways in which this work adheres to the historic district design standards are it's sited entirely to the rear of the home. It does not project beyond the two story portion, so it cannot be seen from the front very well. Certainly not straight on.

You won't even realize anything has changed. It doesn't reorient the existing house or its entries. It's a size and a scale compatible with the district, and it was kept as compact as I could design it so that we added as little as possible. The foundation height is going to be preserved. It's differentiated from the existing construction with both that setback that I mentioned and the cross gable.

The eave heights are matched. The gable roof form is also matched and obviously compatible with the district. The exposure of the new lapsed siding that we will install will align with the house and match the same exposure. And all the double hung simulated divided light windows are compatible with the rhythm and the solid void ratio in the existing house. And they'll be trimmed with raised trim just like in the house.

So that concludes my portion of the renovation. I'll hand it over to Jennifer. But if I can figure out quickly how to switch. I used my time since the last meeting to create a computer model.

So it's this right here.

You

can Okay, just go through

great. Thanks. So this helps define the project a little more clearly. This is obviously the front

of the

house, and there's the back of the house as it exists. And then the addition does that. Right? So here's the the existing, and then there's the new cross cable. And from the other side, there's the existing house.

Another motivation for orienting the addition as we did is that this stair, which is presenting as just a sorry. I didn't model the stair, but the stair is the kind of dark zigzag that's in the crotch of where the bump out meets the existing house. If we if we orient the addition like I've like I've chosen, then we don't have to redo this stair. Sorry. A little trouble driving here.

So that's existing, and then this is this is what it looks like with the addition. Any of those you want me to show again before I hand it over to Jennifer?

I think we're good. Okay. Jennifer.

Alright.

Good evening. Thank you for hearing our request. Again, my name is Jennifer Hoffman and I'm a general contractor and interior designer. I've I've re I rewound to show you these two properties. Let's see. Does the cursor show up if I maybe not. Five point. Oh. So it's here. Oh, gotcha. I think I gotta drag it around. Okay. So now it's over on that. Oh, thank you. Okay.

So, yes, I did have the the honor of working on the the study center at UNC a few years ago as the lead designer and the project manager and was delighted to, last year, receive a historic preservation award by the town of Chapel Hill for that project. And also received, through the National Association of the Remodeling Industry, a historic preservation and design award for the Southeast Division. And then on the the property that's directly across the street from the one that we're requesting work on at 206 North Boundary Last year in 2025, I did a primary bathroom renovation on the 2nd Floor. So just a little bit of context there. And, yes, what I'll be sharing next is about our window replacement request.

And we're requesting to replace 13 of the existing windows due to ill fitting and inoperable existing window conditions, broken sash cords on the windows that do open, and extreme energy loss through single pane glazing and ill fit, as well as improper insulation that does no longer meet current standards and code. And then in the the upper right hand photo, that's in the primary master closet. And the unfortunately, the the photo did not turn out very well. If you look to the lower right hand corner photo where you can see moisture penetration up here in the corner. There's there's mold in that area.

And because that photo didn't turn out very well, I'm gonna just take a moment to pass around the photo of a little better representation. But you can see from the photo that this has been a long standing and ongoing problem with the windows. And so, of course, we would keep the stained glass windows that are very old and actually predate the windows, the aluminum windows in that closet that we're proposing to replace. And then working from from right to left, here you see these two windows are on the front of the house. The broken sash cords, they were probably actually cut at some point.

And then here is a living room window photo. We're proposing to replace five windows on the front of the home, two on the rear in the living room, one on the upper north side, which is on the right side of the house, and then two Upper South Side, which is the primary bedroom, and one at the stair landing, and then these two in the primary closet. Some comparable installations are actually at the study center at UNC where we used the same Marvin Ultimate Pinewood windows that we're proposing here for the project. And this same product was approved by the HDC for this project on at 203 Battle Lane. And you can see in the highlighted area here, and I'll show you a little bit better representation, but very historically appropriate to the age of the home and the style of the home.

This is the upper left hand window on the study center home and then also here on the lower left hand window. So this window has a raised profile with a volo sticking and is very historically appropriate to the style of the home. And as a little better representation, just so you can see as well, this is the Marvin window and the sash. And I'm happy to pass that around as well. Happy to pass this around as well so you can take a look at it and kinda touch and feel it and and get a good sense for the quality.

Jennifer, yeah, if you don't mind talking to mic. Thanks.

This corner sample was made for this presentation by Marvin Windows to just give you a real indication, because it's hard to tell sometimes by a photo or through a photo, of just the quality of the window, and also how the the pieces fit together and how the pine is dovetailed and the construction of the of the window altogether. Another detail here is that it would it will have the the muttons in both the upper and the lower sash, much like we saw in the study center windows. We're also requesting the French door replacements for three French doors that lead into the home due to extreme energy loss through sagging panels, single panel glass, and gaps between the doors. So from left to right here, this is a French door set going from the north patio into the dining room, here in this set. And then you can see where there are gaps in the doors.

This one's a little bit of better representation. Here you can see where there are gaps in the doors. Daylight is coming through, and of course, they're getting extreme energy loss through those visible gaps. In addition, the doors are sagging. And even after some work done a couple of years ago that we tried using double hung out of Greensboro that does historic preservation for historic doors and windows.

These doors are just to the point where they really do need to be replaced. What we're proposing here is something similar to what's depicted on the left photo. This is a 10 light door, and we're proposing 12 light to be more consistent with the existing doors that we're requesting to replace. And that would be for all three sets. The north doors going into the dining room, and then the two sets on the south porch going into the living room.

And that concludes our presentation. Happy to answer any questions that you may have.

A quick question. On the window replacement, are you replacing the windows in kind if it's in terms of the number of panes and that type of thing.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Sample is really very, very good and interesting. My own concern has to do with the simulated divided light, which isn't shown in this sample, unfortunately. But there are lots of different varieties of SDLs. And of course, for replacing some of the windows in a house, but not all of them, the profile of the SDL that actually is in the room or faces the exterior can be kind of significant. Do you have information about that?

Yes, that's a great question. So we would be using a simulated divided light, but it would have the Avolo sticking that would be just like we used in the study center. So it would look like it is a true divided light, but it would it would be a whole lot more economic and yet it would still have representation that looks like a true divided light.

Okay. And that that is the the Marvin standard for this window?

It sure is. Yes. Yes. Identical windows as we used in the other project. And don't know if we can enlarge yep. So here we go. So I I tried to give a representation. It's hard to see here. But if you look at the photo with the rocking chair, that's gonna give the best representation of that that profile with the with that Is that flat

on the out is it flat on the outside? Or does the profile have dimension to it?

Great question. Again, it does have it does have like a ridge in it which is the ovolo. So it has a contour and a raised profile. It is not flat.

I'm happy to hear that. Thank you. I would make one more comment. And this is sort of a question. The very first slide we saw of the Sanborn map and this is for the record entitled it 2025 Sanborn Map. And I'm sure you meant 1925.

Going back to the windows, I was recently at the study center. And yet, that has a substantial profile. It gives a nice shadow line, which is what you're interested in. So that's good. Any more questions, comments? Okay. Are there any anyone here from the public that would like to say anything about this? Do not see anyone. We'll close public hearing then. Any more comments among the commissioners?

Oh, I have a question. I have one more

Oh, we have a question.

One more question. And this is for the architect. I noticed that on the existing house, on the north wing, the north one story wing, there's a hip roof. And of course, the rest of the house has gable roofs. And I'm wondering, when you created this L, why you created a gable at the intersection of the L instead of replicating the hip so that you don't have that valley issue where you have one gable roof intersecting a second.

And you can see that pretty clearly in the south elevation of the addition.

I'll see if I can navigate

over I to was just curious as to whether you had considered that or

Well, think there's two things going on. I think it seems because there's a conflict between the existing roofline and the bump out where the eave almost runs into a window and the fact that the the kitchen now protrudes beyond the house in a way that it it seems like something changed there that I don't I don't know what. But I'm not convinced that that hip roof on the north side was I'm not sure it was always like that. The other thing is we wanted to think conceptually of kind of preserving the form of the bump out, which is just a gabled box by extruding that into the yard and indicating with the setback that it we have changed it. But we wanted to preserve that roof form when you looked at the back elevation of the house.

Okay. I get where you're going. And I guess the question I would have then, if you wanted to keep that roof form, why wouldn't you adjust the the walls so that there is a break in that flat, I guess, it's a west elevation or maybe it's south.

Oh, it's west.

It faces west. And if you wanted to really keep that gable, why wouldn't you push one of the walls back further so that the gable actually extends out and emphasizes the fact that it's a gable roof?

Yeah. I think it was we were trying to minimize how far we went into the yard, and I could I could accomplish everything that I wanted to do without adding depth to that. And I feel like unless you added a couple of feet, you're it's gonna be an odd scenario. Right? Like, you need to do it with enough depth that it looks like an intentional move. And we didn't we didn't need that extra that extra space to fit all the programming that we were putting in there. Thank you. Sure. Thank you.

Okay. Does anyone want to make a motion?

I move that the application at 02:09 North Boundary Street is not incongruous with the historic district commission, standards of the historic district commission. I also move that we authorize the chairperson to sign the COA for this application.

I second.

Okay, there's been a second. All in favor, aye. Aye. All opposed? Okay, it passes. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Yes, we can. We're gonna take a five minute break. Educators. Control.

This item was I think it was on maybe the February agenda. We talked about education outreach opportunities for the commission. It's just a reminder, of things that you all can do or discuss as a group. One thing we had talked about was the proclamation for preservation month.

We talked about what? I'm sorry. Say that again.

The proclamation for preservation month. Nancy, she did that. But since this is her last meeting, you might wanna nominate someone to to work on getting the the proclamation in so council can read the designation if that's something you all are interested in.

I haven't gotten anything from the town about it. If they use the same proclamation they used before, we've looked at it several times, and it's been fine. I don't know. Last year, the town did put up some good stuff during the month of May. Even though I will be off, I'd be happy to look and see what they're proposing. Josh was very involved with that as was Polly before she Well,

I think

last year's proclamation was great.

I think y'all might need to reach out to Jeannie Brown.

Well, really, I'm leaving. So I don't know if Josh would be willing to do that. It's easy to reach, Jeannie. Some of the newer members may not be really familiar with this. But several years ago, I think maybe four or five years ago, Josh and Polly Vanderveld and I started working to see if the town would designate May as preservation month, which is a national initiative from the National Trust.

And before that, the town had not really recognized that in any way. So after many, many meetings, we did work with the town. And they do designate May as preservation month. And there was a little bit of a rocky start in terms of getting stuff up on the town website and so on. But last year, the town put up information about different historic buildings and so on.

The town really, I think if they just put up what they put up last year, it was, I thought, very nice. It's very low key. I mean, there is a proclamation. There wasn't anything said about it at the last council meeting. Don't think I got the mayor just sent out her newsletter today. And it didn't say anything about it. Although I think there may be one more meeting before May. But

So my recollection of the start of all that actually came out of a retreat topic where we talked about our overall charter. And I think part of the charter of the HDC is related to certificates of significance and considering changes to historic structures in the historic districts. But there also is an outreach and education component of our charter as well. And so I think the designating May is a historic preservation month and Chapel Hill kind of came out of that discussion of like wanting to do more education as a group. I think it's been rocky from a support standpoint, maybe is the most polite way to say that.

In looking at the document that was distributed with the agenda, there is a big focus on outreach and communication. So I'm sort of looking at page twelve, thirteen, and 14. So vision strategies and goals for 2025 to 2034. And my understanding is that this is the state historic preservation office document. So this is sort of their vision for the state and for all historic districts.

And there is a big focus on goal one outreach and communication, heighten the public's knowledge of the HBO's role as the state official historic preservation agency. Expand access to HBO services and incentives. So I believe that because they've gone through the effort of updating their vision for the next ten years, it's probably incumbent upon us to have a read of this and then talk about what we can do as volunteers on this commission to help support their objectives. And I think the attempts that we've made so far are trying to engage other stakeholders in the community on our charter outside of the quasi judicial piece has been hard. We Challenging.

It has been quite challenging.

I

don't want to bad mouth anybody, but a lot of people we approach, a lot of organizations we approach seemed like logical partners to really promote this were not as supportive as we might have hoped.

So I would propose that this needs to be a longer conversation with the commission as it stands shortly. And I think you're retiring from the commission. And Josh, I think you're timing out in about two or three months. And so that leaves four of us. And I think we need to recruit some additional members. And I think if we're going to recruit some additional members, that is a good time for us to talk about this document and the objectives that the historic office has for the state and ensure that we've got support from the new commissioners and moving forward on something slightly different. I think it's a time to me, it's a timing question of when we tackle this.

I agree, but it sounds like the proclamation as one piece of that just go with what we used last year. Sounds like. Is that what I'm hearing?

I think that would be fine. You would think was good proclamation.

Yeah. I think it was a good proclamation. And I do think that last year's addition to the website, town's website, was also good. There were no activities associated with this. There was an outreach to the board of realtors, I believe, in terms of a of a document.

So I think that it would be absolutely proper to do what Brian's suggesting is to put this on an agenda for the commission to consider and also have an outline of what's been done as well as what could be done relative to the state's summary of what their expectations are, what SHPO's expectations are for commissions like ours.

Well, agree with all that. But that kinda gets us to the next thing, which is a more specific outreach. Sounds like we need to talk about recruitment for our commission. Is is there in the past, I'm the newbie. In the past, has there been a process to the town to reach out

to people?

Or how does that occur?

So looking to Shernika and Anna Scott to keep me honest on this. But I think it's been sort of a twofold. One is word-of-mouth from us. I think you were probably recruited by Josh, if I'm not mistaken. Correct. Thank you, Josh. Maybe you too, Laura, from another commission. Amy. Amy. Thank you, Amy.

So I think there's been a little bit of all of us that are involved networking with folks in town that we think would be interested. And I think there has been marketing on behalf of the town in the past, which is actually how I found out about the Historic District Commission. Nancy, maybe you did, too, once upon a time, which I'm not sure is part of the standard process anymore. But I think there is actually an applicant that has applied, if I'm not mistaken. So there is recruiting for town commissions and boards on a regular basis. And that's so I think there is actually someone in the queue, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah. So the application is open all year round as far as I know. It's actually the clerk's office that coordinates applications for boards and commissions. And they're the ones that do the outreach. We do have one applicant right now that we are trying to coordinate coming to the May meeting, the regular May meeting, for an interview.

He could not make it tonight. But that, I mean, you all went through the interview to get onto this commission, so you know what it's like. But you'll then make a recommendation to counsel to appoint or not appoint the applicant. But hopefully, we would get a couple more applicants so that we could try and get a full commission with Josh leaving, Nancy leaving, and then us having an empty seat.

Maybe as part of preservation month, that could be somehow tied to what's on the town's website along with the proclamation or also as whatever the little vignette they post on the town calendar, put something that says, join this effort or you know?

Right. Mhmm.

How many positions are we supposed to have?

Seven. Seven.

Seven. If we're full, but you don't have to have seven. What's the minimum? I guess that's what I'm asking.

Core needs four.

You need

four to meet.

Alright.

So we're just at that. So no one can be sick. No one can have events. The second Tuesday of

the month is booked.

Our That never happens. Our experience when we're down has been challenging to make quorum. So I think we're better off having closer to seven if we turn.

Okay. Good to know. Well, we'll all go out and try to find someone and make suggestions and twist their arms. And then we look forward to hearing from the one coming up in May. Okay?

We hope that he can make it. So we'll let you know.

Okay. Very good. Does that conclude discussion on education outreach? I don't want to cut anyone short.

Yeah. I I think we should continue that item until we have new members on. So maybe we come back to this in June to talk a little bit about sort of how to move beyond just historic preservation month.

K. Sounds good. And then the design standards were were part of the email sent out to the commissioners. It's the pretty much the same list. I don't think there are any new items in it, wasn't it?

No. Yeah. It's the same list. So we do we don't have to talk about it today, but we should start working through that running list to see what updates to standards.

So I I I think if this is a good time for us to revisit a topic that we tackled about a year or so ago, maybe eighteen months ago or so, sort of in reference to a lookbook. The existing standards that you and I both have copies of here, Don, sort of stopped short of giving, I'll call it advice or guidance, to those that are seeking to add new structures into the historic district. And I think with the intention of trying to fill in more housing closer to the center of town, there are indications, even through recent applications, that that pressure is starting to come because the size of university is going to increase. There's a variety of different things. So I think if we're going to revisit design standards, should also talk a little bit about whether or not we want to revisit supplementing what we currently have with what, Josh, you've called a lookbook, which I think has a very specific historical reference.

But it's essentially guidance for developers around what would be appropriate to add to the historic district that is consistent with our standards. And it's very pictorial.

And I originally was all about the lookbook and still

could be

convinced. But maybe I've been hanging around Kevin too long. I'm not sure. But after our last meeting, I could see a problem with the lookbook as an amendment to the guidelines is that someone could go to an image in our lookbook and use that as a precedent. And it would be an inappropriate it could be an inappropriate precedent for the lot that they're putting it on. You know what I mean? Because there's, like we talked about, there's horizontal expressions, there's vertical expressions, and they could pick a vertical expression in a horizontal street and then they say, well, hey, it was in your book. We're using that as precedent. That would be my only concern.

Yeah. Think we're moving into a period of time where there's going to be more precedent set based on the applications that are coming through, just based on what's currently on the market in the historic district and the application that we've now extended to a special meeting. So there are some changes that need to be made to the design standards based on last couple of years. I think we should carefully consider whether or there needs to be more significant augmentation to this, whether it's a lookbook or something else that accelerates the application process. And we don't end up with multiple situations where it's not clear how we're applying new Lumo standards.

It just creates issues for staff, creates issues for us. And I think we're moving into a time where it's going to be more dynamic than it's been the last couple of years.

If I'm oh, that's loud. If I may, I think one of the things that's probably worthwhile to consider, discuss a little bit is and we've talked about this before. But our current principles and standards are based in large part on the Secretary of the Interior's standards for rehabilitation of historic structures. The purpose for which those standards are used is different than the purpose for which your principles and standards are supposed to be used under state law. They're a great starting point.

They are very good for their purpose. But your role is to determine, one, what is the character of the applicable historic district for a particular case as it relates to the specific application before you. And then, two, to determine whether what's been proposed by the applicant is or is not in congress with the character of the district. And I think in my view, and whether this comes in the form of a lookbook or something else entirely, but I think that it might be helpful for the commission and for future commissions and for applicants as well to have something that is maybe more descriptive of the character of the district. So for example, something that speaks to the appropriate size and scale of structure relative to adjacent structures or the lot lines, massing those sorts of things rather than kind of the existing principles and standards which speak are act almost they're not, but they could be read more or less as kind of objective decision making criteria.

Well, I think practically speaking, this document dates to about 2020 or 2021, if I'm not mistaken. And the council just approved significant changes to Lumo this year, five years later. So at a minimum, there needs to be some Venn diagram overlap of what's in this and what in the lumen, which I think we're starting to stumble into, points of gray area that are challenging for everybody.

And I just to illustrate the point I'll mention, it's been several years now. Think you know, I think we've almost got at least 50% turnover since this case was heard. But you all may recall, and I forget where it was, but we had a case where an applicant wanted to add a couple of dormers to the street facing facade of their structure. Our principles and standards say on their face, that's not appropriate. However, they were also able to bring to us kind of the original it was it was a kind of one of those historic Sears kit homes.

They were able to bring to us the advertising materials for that exact kit home that said dormers are an available option for an extra $100 or whatever. They were able to bring us photographs of other similar style homes with similar dormers and similar locations throughout the district. And we were lucky. I think we were at a point with kind of the HDC's transformation over the last seven or eight years. But we were at a point where I think the HDC was able to recognize that this is a situation where perhaps under our principles and standards something ought not to be approved.

But if we look to state law and our primary remit, is to only prevent the construction in the district that is not congruous with the special character, We leaned more towards that end of the spectrum. And I think we made what was a legally defensible decision in that case. Had things gone differently and had we leaned more on the principles and standards, I think that any challenge to a denial of a COA in that case would have would have been tricky to defend. And so the reason I just bring that up as kind of an illustrative point, right, something that that does not attempt to be a set of kind of objective decision making criteria. This type of work, this type of addition, this type of feature is or is not appropriate is often is maybe a little bit too cookie cutter for your role, which is to determine kind of this broader, more academic point of whether or not something is or is not incongruous with the character of the district.

And I think to Brian's point, as I think the town is expecting more maybe kind of innovative or unique infill development in town, I think that that kind of the cookie cutter principles and standards does not fit very well. I think you need something that's a little bit more flexible, maybe a little bit more generally descriptive or broader principles that that this commission can then interpret and apply on a case by case basis, based on the evidence that an applicant brings to you.

So I think Kevin has a great point there. And I'd like to remind us that our book of standards actually is composed of two different pieces. One piece of it has very specific standards. Thou shalt use four and onefour inches boards. The other part of this is the district descriptions.

And I think if we could look at those district descriptions and be able to focus more of our decision making on the district descriptions, we may be able to begin to achieve what you're talking about.

And that's why I know you all have I've prepared for you all, and I'm sure you all have read I know we've talked about kind of these hearing workflows and and you know kind of general outlines of questions and that sort of thing. That's why we focus so heavily on you know look to the the the character essays in in the principles and standards because those are kind of your primary, you know, resource and and they're they're an applicant's primary resource about what from the town's perspective, the special character of the various historic districts is. And and I think something that maybe expands on those, you know, those those character essays would be very helpful that kind of talks, you know, in maybe broader terms or kind of different context rather than kind of an academic description of the architectural styles that are prevalent in the district. It talks a little bit maybe in a little bit more technical or architectural terms. What is kind of common scale and mass?

And what are the typical distances between structures within a district? That sort of thing.

So we're fortunate that we have some folks that are trained in this subject matter area on the commission. Several of us are not trained in this area. And so to the extent that you want volunteers that have from a variety of different backgrounds, making it easier for them to be able to navigate and interpret this document over time, both technical experts and nontechnical experts, town council members, whomever, I feel like is an important role that we can play. And I think that we need to augment what we currently have to make that easier moving forward. I also think that that may be a bit of a tall ask to ask volunteers to tackle.

So I think that that likely means budget allocation or a grant or some other funding mechanism to be able to hire professionals that then helps develop the next document that makes this easier for everybody to navigate. And if I'm not mistaken, there was a grant that got there was it from I'm not sure from who, but there was a grant that allowed us to produce this document.

You brought up a good point about alignment of that book with the LUMO. Are we in a position to make those changes? Or is that something that is beyond our scope?

Well, I'll defer, I think, to staff about the the town's internal process by which the principles and standards would be drafted and then subject I believe they go to the council for approval. But I could be wrong about that.

That's what the letter at the front says. Oh, it does. This actually went to the council for approval.

But I think my 2¢ is that I forget where I was going. I lost my train of thought. I was going to get rolling on something, now I forget where

I'm at. It'll come back to you, Kyle.

While you're getting back on that train, I have a question for Josh and the staff, I guess. The grant for this one, where do the grants come from? Does the town have someone that applies for them? Oh, sorry. Does the town have someone that applies for the grants?

I think Josh might be the best person to hire.

But she didn't give us the grant.

Yeah, no, she wouldn't give grants because there's a group called Covington Foundation that we could apply to that may be interested in giving us a grant for something like

So the publication has been financed in part with federal funds from the National Park Service, US Department of Interior. And it looks like the project consultant was Heather Wagner Slain. It's the person that's hired.

Okay. And Heather Heather has built this, I think, into a profession. When she did this, she was just starting, And she was actually on the Durham HTC when she started this. And I think she does this now all the time professionally.

I think she had done one other town Yeah. Before

Right. We weren't her first This.

It was a $25,000 grant that was used to pay her. And

I think it's 25,000 because she was so new at

it. Yeah.

So she might charge more.

Yeah. Well Yeah. Think anybody would for a document.

That's the way that deal works. So where does that leave us to tie this up? Before

we if we're heading towards wrapping this up, I just wanted to point out that in the on the second page, the right after the the title page of the design standards, it does say that it was adopted by the HDC, not town council. We can get a a more clear answer, but I we don't think that it would need to go to council. I think it's something you all could adopt.

That's interesting. I find that hard to believe, but that's awesome.

Yeah. And I would I would imagine, anyway, if we're hoping to have funds allocated as part of the town's budget cycle, that obviously would have to go to But

if we were to get funds outside of the town's budget cycle, then I could see it maybe.

Yeah. Then that raises other questions about the HDC's authority to apply for grant funding on behalf of the town without, presumably we would have to get the town council's stamp of approval to submit a grant application in the town's name. Those are things that we can work through as this process develops. So

I would propose that we continue the discussion of that, of the design standards item, until after the April 30 meeting where I think we're going to have a real life example of why we need something slightly different. And so we may all have a different opinion in about a month.

I think that's legit. We'll also hopefully be bringing in some new people as well. So that's awesome. Okay. Well, that's a good discussion. Since that close if that closes that one off, I think we're done. We can

Congratulations, Nancy. Thanks for all your help.

Thank you

for your Yes. Congratulations to Nancy.

A lot of good work.

Okay. We are adjourned.